February 21, 2025 • 16 mins
Dr. Vanessa Tyler talks with the president of the ACLU and associate dean at New York Universtiy School of Law Deborah Archer. Deborah has written a book titled "Dividing Lines: How Transportation Infrastructure Reinforces Racial Inequality" that details the role race has played in the U.S. transportation infrastructure over the years. After the success of the Civil Rights movement, officials turned to less obvious means to keep Americans divided. Through city planning, highway building and property evaluations, city officials used these tools to suppress Black communities and restrict economic growth.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
It's just one nation, one nation. The reality is America
has always shown to be at least two one black,
one white. It was literally built that way.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
We built institutions so that they assisted and supported the
well being and success and lives of some uh and
we built them so that they destroyed and displaced the
lives of others.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Lives destroyed and lives lost, like that of Cynthia Wiggins.
It's racist and that's what caused her death, a black
woman killed by a deliberate connection. Many of us may
not even realize how deep it goes, but we will
learn today from author, educator, and activists civil rights attorney
(00:53):
Deborah Archer. She goes in in eye opening details in
Blackland and now as around her, So you just feel
so invisible where we're from. Brothers and sisters are welcome
you to this joyful and day we celebrate freedom. Where
we are I know someone heard something and where we're going.
(01:16):
We the people means all the people. The Black Information
Network presents Blackland with your host Vanessa Tyler. Look around,
is your neighborhood one of those with racism rooted in
the blueprint? We all know about redlining, but Deborah Archer
wrote the book about how city and town planners got
around segregation lads with highways and transportation.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
And so as the judicial decisions and civil rights laws
of the nineteen fifties in nineteen sixties made it more
difficult to isolate black communities using zoning laws and other regulations,
we saw urban planners turned to road construction in highway
construction in order to impose the segregation that they couldn't
(02:02):
count on the law to enforce anymore.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Deborah Archer's book Dividing Lines, How transportation infrastructure reinforces racial inequality.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
I would like to say that Dividing Lines helps us
understand the history of civil rights. As the civil rights
movement began to win victories and segregationists could no longer
consistently rely on the law to enforce racial hierarchy, communities
around the country began to rely on transportation infrastructure highways,
(02:33):
public transportation, roads, even sidewalks to do the work of
oppression that they could no longer depend on the law
to do. When I was writing the book and told
people about it, a common reply was for people to
mention the power Broker, that incredibly and insanely popular book
about Robert Moses, and in many ways, this is the
(02:54):
other side of the powerbroker. The power broker is about
what Robert Moses did to build and shape New York
and his philosophy of development, really disregarding black and brown
communities in order to build highways and parks and community institutions.
So dividing lines tells the stories of the people impacted
by that philosophy, the impact on their lives in their community.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
When you think about even Central Park, which was at
one point a black community, which was then condemned, as
you mentioned earlier, you know, made to seem well first,
not built up, then condemned, then taken over. It's to
put a park in. It happens all.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Over, and it happens that you know, there's a story
to tell about the way that Robert Moses did that
with Lincoln Center in New York City as well. It's
important for us to understand this history and not think
that black communities have these conditions because of the community,
the people who live in those communities, or because it's
natural that's just the way things are. We built our
(04:00):
our communities this way. We built institutions so that they
assisted and supported the well being and success and lives
of some, and we built them so that they destroyed
and displaced the lives of others. There's a long history,
particularly in the United States, around displacement as a tool
(04:22):
of racial oppression, denying people a sense of self by
denying them a sense of place.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
The deep dark history of black communities being displaced. When
America built its highways, white men's roads through Black men's
homes turned out to be the way to go.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
That phrase, white men's roads through Black men's homes was
the rallying cry for a community in Washington, d C.
That was fighting a highway that was planned to be
built through the community and would have destroyed their community.
The idea of using transportation infrastructure to reinforce in lack
in racial inequality is something that I explore in my
(05:02):
book Dividing Lines. When we expand our understanding a government
sponsors sererogation beyond racial covenants and redlining, it's clear that
it's not just the invisible lines created by local, state,
and federal laws that divide us. It's also the physical,
literal lines that run through and around our communities, and
(05:23):
that's transportation. They may seem innocuous, it may seemed just
merely practical or necessary or natural, but that part of
the architecture of racial inequality is real. The nation's transportation
system is really an essential element of that infrastructure of
inequality that helps to keep communities divided and separate, that
(05:45):
keeps communities unequal. And while we're talking about civil rights
and racial justice, I think it's important that we have
real and meaningful conversations about where we are and exactly
how we got there. And I think this conversation around infrastructure,
and even more broadly, that the way that we've used
(06:05):
infrastructure as a tool to segregate is something that has
been missing from the conversation.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
The buses and trains were part of it, whether walking
a mile for a bus or no bus at all.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
We hear a lot about what's called transportation deserts, and
that's the term for the kind of communities that you're
describing where the supply of mass public transportation doesn't meet
the demand. And even as parts of the country really
continues to invest in highways and suburban commuter rail systems,
(06:39):
we still have transportation deserts, and most of those are
in black communities that have been ignored and left out
So when black neighborhoods were destroyed to make way for
highways and roads and urban renewal projects, the people who
lived there found themselves scattered in these transportation deserts. It's made,
(07:00):
as you said, everyday life really infinitely more challenging. Residents
of these communities, again largely black communities, have a hard
time getting to work, in school, going shopping for groceries
or clothes, getting to the movies or the park, or
seeing the doctor or the dentists, or visiting family, and
they may find themselves walking long distances on unsafe streets,
(07:26):
really forced to literally risk their lives. And white communities
can become transportation deserts too, and as they talk about
in the book Dividing Lines, some residents of those communities
actually fight for that outcome. They want to limit public
transportation in order to keep black and low income people
from coming to merely traveling through their neighborhoods.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
The trouble to travel racist and convenient deadly.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
One of the stories I tell in the book is
about racial stigma that's a attached to bus riding, and
I learned about the death of a seventeen year old
black woman named Cynthia Wiggins in Buffalo, New York, and
Cynthia worked at a fast food restaurant that was in
an upscale suburban mall, and to get to the mall
(08:16):
from the nearest bus stop, Cynthia had to kind of
sprint across seven lanes roadway because the mall barred city
buses that were used primarily by black commuters from driving
into the parking lot, but they let other buses in
a suburban commuter and tourist buses that both had greater
(08:36):
white ridership, they were permitted to enter the parking lot.
And one day Cynthia made that run from the bus
stop to the mall and she was crushed by a
dump truck.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Cynthia Wiggins, the teenage single mom, killed in nineteen ninety six.
Back in the late nineteen nineties, ABC's Nightline did a
story on this very issue of transportation racism and talked
with those who knew and loved her.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
And Cynthia's story is, of course an extreme version of
what I think is an all too common story black
people needing access to jobs and opportunities that are located
in white communities, White communities manipulating public transportation policies to
exclude them, or black folks not being able to access
public transportation at all within their communities.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Now that we are rebuilding America, what's the likelihood of
that that those wrongs will now be made right, meaning
communities will be reunited that we're separated by let's say,
a highway or something like that.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
We've certainly start to have what I think is an
important conversation about the role that highways and transportation infrastructure
played in dividing communities and the need to rebuild and
to bring those communities back together. But as they say,
you know, it's hard to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.
It's a harder process than we would like to believe.
(10:02):
It is not just about tearing a highway down, and
it's not just about an infusion of economic investment into
that community. We really have to do the work to
reverse the decades of compounded inequality that comes from having
a highway destroy your homes, your churches, and the businesses
(10:25):
in your community. We have to figure out how we
can invest in homeowners and renters and business owners in
those communities over the long term so that the economic
investment doesn't lead to displacement, and we have to figure
out a way to change policy. As we engage in
(10:46):
building new infrastructure, Black homes, black businesses, and black communities
still continue to be valued less than other homes and communities.
They stand in the pathways of bulldozers again, and we
can actually reinjure those communities and do more harm if
(11:07):
we don't go about rebuilding and reconnecting in a way
that acknowledges the history of harm, the current harm, and
the potential for future harm. One reason why transportation infrastructure
has proven to be such an important tool in white
supremacy is that removing a physical barrier can be even
harder than changing a segregationist law. And these efforts really
(11:31):
kicked into high gear when the Court signaled the fall
of segregation with Brown versus Board of Education in nineteen
fifty four, and then the Interstate Highway Act, which has
passed in nineteen fifty six, became this tool that governors
and mayors and city planners were using to fight back.
(11:51):
So in the wake of Brown government officials demonstrated the
extreme methods that they would go to to resist change,
and right at that moment, the Interstate Highway system was
being built, and so we see that the interstate highway
system just destroyed hundreds of thousands of homes and one estimate,
(12:12):
the United States Department of Transportation estimated that more than
four hundred and seventy five thousand homes and more than
a million people were displaced nationwide as a direct result
of the original construction of the highways. And those households
and those people were disproportionately black and poor, and in
(12:34):
dividing lines. I talk about Birmingham, Alabama, and Atlanta, Georgia,
and Indianapolis, Indiana, which all provide powerful examples of how
the highway became a tool of a post Jim Crow
segregationist agenda. In Birmingham, racial zoning laws created an invisible
(12:54):
line that divided black and white neighborhoods, and once a
federal appeals court struck down Birmingham's racial zoning laws, white
residents and city officials sought to replace the invisible dividing
lines with physical ones, and they turned to the highway.
Similar things happened in Atlanta and in Innneapolis. The city
(13:15):
government and private actors had under invested in black communities
that had been redlined, and then they used the challenges
that those communities face as a reason to justify their
further devastation by building highways through those redline communities, and
that really is just the tip of the iceberg. In
states around the country, there are stories about the way
(13:40):
that a highway was driven through a black community, a
highway was built around a black community to contain black people,
and the result was economic disinvestment, loss of homes, loss
of businesses, and loss of community institutions that really tore
at the fabric of those communities.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Under the guise of imminent domain, which is always questionable
in subjective.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Absolutely using domain as an excuse and a tool to
seize black homes and black property, and to build those
highways through those homes and that property, and not providing
assistance with relocation, not providing adequate compensation for the loss
of what was, for many people their most valuable asset,
(14:28):
and then aiding further segregation because the people who lost
their homes and communities were forced to resettle in already
deeply segregated communities.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Another note about Cynthia Wiggins, the young black mother who
died crossing a highway because the upscale mall wanted to
prevent crime by not letting city buses in the lot.
The late civil rights lawyer Johnny Cockran handled the case.
The family agreed to a two and a half million
dollar settlement from the mall and the bus company, money
(15:01):
used for a trust for Cynthia's young son. After an
NAACP fight, city buses were able to go into the
parking lot of the upscale Walden Galleria Mall.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
So ultimately, Dividing Lines is a book about how adaptive, creative,
and resilient racism is. Those who love yesterday will always
fight against tomorrow, and they're good at it. And this
book is a story about how we have allowed racism
to adapt and involve in our transportation infrastructure to help
(15:34):
white communities fight against tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
The book Dividing Lines how transportation infrastructure reinforces racial inequality.
Get the book on pre order at ww Norton dot com.
Oh Debora Archer wears another hat. She is also the
president of the American Civil Liberties Union. That sound, that's
(15:59):
President Trump signing yet another executive order on the next Blackland.
What we're seeing in plain sight and what the ACLU
is doing about it, Well.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
I think what most people are seeing is the destruction
of our democracy and really the destruction of the infrastructure
of civil rights and equality. There has been a flurry
of executive orders and other actions that are challenging so
many of the pieces of our communities and our government
(16:31):
that have helped bring us to a place where we
are more equitable, more inclusive, and more free.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Honestly, I'm Vanessa Tyler. Join me next time. A new
episode of Blackland drops every week.
It's just one nation, one nation. The reality is America
has always shown to be at least two one black,
one white. It was literally built that way.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
We built institutions so that they assisted and supported the
well being and success and lives of some uh and
we built them so that they destroyed and displaced the
lives of others.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Lives destroyed and lives lost, like that of Cynthia Wiggins.
It's racist and that's what caused her death, a black
woman killed by a deliberate connection. Many of us may
not even realize how deep it goes, but we will
learn today from author, educator, and activists civil rights attorney
(00:53):
Deborah Archer. She goes in in eye opening details in
Blackland and now as around her, So you just feel
so invisible where we're from. Brothers and sisters are welcome
you to this joyful and day we celebrate freedom. Where
we are I know someone heard something and where we're going.
(01:16):
We the people means all the people. The Black Information
Network presents Blackland with your host Vanessa Tyler. Look around,
is your neighborhood one of those with racism rooted in
the blueprint? We all know about redlining, but Deborah Archer
wrote the book about how city and town planners got
around segregation lads with highways and transportation.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
And so as the judicial decisions and civil rights laws
of the nineteen fifties in nineteen sixties made it more
difficult to isolate black communities using zoning laws and other regulations,
we saw urban planners turned to road construction in highway
construction in order to impose the segregation that they couldn't
(02:02):
count on the law to enforce anymore.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Deborah Archer's book Dividing Lines, How transportation infrastructure reinforces racial inequality.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
I would like to say that Dividing Lines helps us
understand the history of civil rights. As the civil rights
movement began to win victories and segregationists could no longer
consistently rely on the law to enforce racial hierarchy, communities
around the country began to rely on transportation infrastructure highways,
(02:33):
public transportation, roads, even sidewalks to do the work of
oppression that they could no longer depend on the law
to do. When I was writing the book and told
people about it, a common reply was for people to
mention the power Broker, that incredibly and insanely popular book
about Robert Moses, and in many ways, this is the
(02:54):
other side of the powerbroker. The power broker is about
what Robert Moses did to build and shape New York
and his philosophy of development, really disregarding black and brown
communities in order to build highways and parks and community institutions.
So dividing lines tells the stories of the people impacted
by that philosophy, the impact on their lives in their community.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
When you think about even Central Park, which was at
one point a black community, which was then condemned, as
you mentioned earlier, you know, made to seem well first,
not built up, then condemned, then taken over. It's to
put a park in. It happens all.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Over, and it happens that you know, there's a story
to tell about the way that Robert Moses did that
with Lincoln Center in New York City as well. It's
important for us to understand this history and not think
that black communities have these conditions because of the community,
the people who live in those communities, or because it's
natural that's just the way things are. We built our
(04:00):
our communities this way. We built institutions so that they
assisted and supported the well being and success and lives
of some, and we built them so that they destroyed
and displaced the lives of others. There's a long history,
particularly in the United States, around displacement as a tool
(04:22):
of racial oppression, denying people a sense of self by
denying them a sense of place.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
The deep dark history of black communities being displaced. When
America built its highways, white men's roads through Black men's
homes turned out to be the way to go.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
That phrase, white men's roads through Black men's homes was
the rallying cry for a community in Washington, d C.
That was fighting a highway that was planned to be
built through the community and would have destroyed their community.
The idea of using transportation infrastructure to reinforce in lack
in racial inequality is something that I explore in my
(05:02):
book Dividing Lines. When we expand our understanding a government
sponsors sererogation beyond racial covenants and redlining, it's clear that
it's not just the invisible lines created by local, state,
and federal laws that divide us. It's also the physical,
literal lines that run through and around our communities, and
(05:23):
that's transportation. They may seem innocuous, it may seemed just
merely practical or necessary or natural, but that part of
the architecture of racial inequality is real. The nation's transportation
system is really an essential element of that infrastructure of
inequality that helps to keep communities divided and separate, that
(05:45):
keeps communities unequal. And while we're talking about civil rights
and racial justice, I think it's important that we have
real and meaningful conversations about where we are and exactly
how we got there. And I think this conversation around infrastructure,
and even more broadly, that the way that we've used
(06:05):
infrastructure as a tool to segregate is something that has
been missing from the conversation.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
The buses and trains were part of it, whether walking
a mile for a bus or no bus at all.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
We hear a lot about what's called transportation deserts, and
that's the term for the kind of communities that you're
describing where the supply of mass public transportation doesn't meet
the demand. And even as parts of the country really
continues to invest in highways and suburban commuter rail systems,
(06:39):
we still have transportation deserts, and most of those are
in black communities that have been ignored and left out
So when black neighborhoods were destroyed to make way for
highways and roads and urban renewal projects, the people who
lived there found themselves scattered in these transportation deserts. It's made,
(07:00):
as you said, everyday life really infinitely more challenging. Residents
of these communities, again largely black communities, have a hard
time getting to work, in school, going shopping for groceries
or clothes, getting to the movies or the park, or
seeing the doctor or the dentists, or visiting family, and
they may find themselves walking long distances on unsafe streets,
(07:26):
really forced to literally risk their lives. And white communities
can become transportation deserts too, and as they talk about
in the book Dividing Lines, some residents of those communities
actually fight for that outcome. They want to limit public
transportation in order to keep black and low income people
from coming to merely traveling through their neighborhoods.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
The trouble to travel racist and convenient deadly.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
One of the stories I tell in the book is
about racial stigma that's a attached to bus riding, and
I learned about the death of a seventeen year old
black woman named Cynthia Wiggins in Buffalo, New York, and
Cynthia worked at a fast food restaurant that was in
an upscale suburban mall, and to get to the mall
(08:16):
from the nearest bus stop, Cynthia had to kind of
sprint across seven lanes roadway because the mall barred city
buses that were used primarily by black commuters from driving
into the parking lot, but they let other buses in
a suburban commuter and tourist buses that both had greater
(08:36):
white ridership, they were permitted to enter the parking lot.
And one day Cynthia made that run from the bus
stop to the mall and she was crushed by a
dump truck.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Cynthia Wiggins, the teenage single mom, killed in nineteen ninety six.
Back in the late nineteen nineties, ABC's Nightline did a
story on this very issue of transportation racism and talked
with those who knew and loved her.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
And Cynthia's story is, of course an extreme version of
what I think is an all too common story black
people needing access to jobs and opportunities that are located
in white communities, White communities manipulating public transportation policies to
exclude them, or black folks not being able to access
public transportation at all within their communities.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Now that we are rebuilding America, what's the likelihood of
that that those wrongs will now be made right, meaning
communities will be reunited that we're separated by let's say,
a highway or something like that.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
We've certainly start to have what I think is an
important conversation about the role that highways and transportation infrastructure
played in dividing communities and the need to rebuild and
to bring those communities back together. But as they say,
you know, it's hard to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.
It's a harder process than we would like to believe.
(10:02):
It is not just about tearing a highway down, and
it's not just about an infusion of economic investment into
that community. We really have to do the work to
reverse the decades of compounded inequality that comes from having
a highway destroy your homes, your churches, and the businesses
(10:25):
in your community. We have to figure out how we
can invest in homeowners and renters and business owners in
those communities over the long term so that the economic
investment doesn't lead to displacement, and we have to figure
out a way to change policy. As we engage in
(10:46):
building new infrastructure, Black homes, black businesses, and black communities
still continue to be valued less than other homes and communities.
They stand in the pathways of bulldozers again, and we
can actually reinjure those communities and do more harm if
(11:07):
we don't go about rebuilding and reconnecting in a way
that acknowledges the history of harm, the current harm, and
the potential for future harm. One reason why transportation infrastructure
has proven to be such an important tool in white
supremacy is that removing a physical barrier can be even
harder than changing a segregationist law. And these efforts really
(11:31):
kicked into high gear when the Court signaled the fall
of segregation with Brown versus Board of Education in nineteen
fifty four, and then the Interstate Highway Act, which has
passed in nineteen fifty six, became this tool that governors
and mayors and city planners were using to fight back.
(11:51):
So in the wake of Brown government officials demonstrated the
extreme methods that they would go to to resist change,
and right at that moment, the Interstate Highway system was
being built, and so we see that the interstate highway
system just destroyed hundreds of thousands of homes and one estimate,
(12:12):
the United States Department of Transportation estimated that more than
four hundred and seventy five thousand homes and more than
a million people were displaced nationwide as a direct result
of the original construction of the highways. And those households
and those people were disproportionately black and poor, and in
(12:34):
dividing lines. I talk about Birmingham, Alabama, and Atlanta, Georgia,
and Indianapolis, Indiana, which all provide powerful examples of how
the highway became a tool of a post Jim Crow
segregationist agenda. In Birmingham, racial zoning laws created an invisible
(12:54):
line that divided black and white neighborhoods, and once a
federal appeals court struck down Birmingham's racial zoning laws, white
residents and city officials sought to replace the invisible dividing
lines with physical ones, and they turned to the highway.
Similar things happened in Atlanta and in Innneapolis. The city
(13:15):
government and private actors had under invested in black communities
that had been redlined, and then they used the challenges
that those communities face as a reason to justify their
further devastation by building highways through those redline communities, and
that really is just the tip of the iceberg. In
states around the country, there are stories about the way
(13:40):
that a highway was driven through a black community, a
highway was built around a black community to contain black people,
and the result was economic disinvestment, loss of homes, loss
of businesses, and loss of community institutions that really tore
at the fabric of those communities.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Under the guise of imminent domain, which is always questionable
in subjective.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Absolutely using domain as an excuse and a tool to
seize black homes and black property, and to build those
highways through those homes and that property, and not providing
assistance with relocation, not providing adequate compensation for the loss
of what was, for many people their most valuable asset,
(14:28):
and then aiding further segregation because the people who lost
their homes and communities were forced to resettle in already
deeply segregated communities.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Another note about Cynthia Wiggins, the young black mother who
died crossing a highway because the upscale mall wanted to
prevent crime by not letting city buses in the lot.
The late civil rights lawyer Johnny Cockran handled the case.
The family agreed to a two and a half million
dollar settlement from the mall and the bus company, money
(15:01):
used for a trust for Cynthia's young son. After an
NAACP fight, city buses were able to go into the
parking lot of the upscale Walden Galleria Mall.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
So ultimately, Dividing Lines is a book about how adaptive, creative,
and resilient racism is. Those who love yesterday will always
fight against tomorrow, and they're good at it. And this
book is a story about how we have allowed racism
to adapt and involve in our transportation infrastructure to help
(15:34):
white communities fight against tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
The book Dividing Lines how transportation infrastructure reinforces racial inequality.
Get the book on pre order at ww Norton dot com.
Oh Debora Archer wears another hat. She is also the
president of the American Civil Liberties Union. That sound, that's
(15:59):
President Trump signing yet another executive order on the next Blackland.
What we're seeing in plain sight and what the ACLU
is doing about it, Well.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
I think what most people are seeing is the destruction
of our democracy and really the destruction of the infrastructure
of civil rights and equality. There has been a flurry
of executive orders and other actions that are challenging so
many of the pieces of our communities and our government
(16:31):
that have helped bring us to a place where we
are more equitable, more inclusive, and more free.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Honestly, I'm Vanessa Tyler. Join me next time. A new
episode of Blackland drops every week.
Host
Vanessa Tyler
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