June 25, 2024 • 41 mins
Ep. 171 Damali Peterman is a highly regarded and sought-after lawyer, mediator, negotiator, educator, and speaker with nearly 20 years of experience in the alternative dispute resolution field. She is the founder and CEO of two companies—Breakthrough ADR, and Damali Law.
On this episode of Black Tech Green Money, Damali talks with AfroTech's Will Lucas about the high stakes negotiations, getting compensated at the level you deserve, and the evolution of mediation.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Demali Peterman is a highly reguarded and sought after lawyer, mediator, negotiator, educator,
and speaker with nearly twenty years of experience in the
alternative dispute resolution field. She's founder and CEO of two companies,
Breakthrough ADR and Demali Law. Her new book, Negotiating While Black,
helps you leverage your unique strends and walk away with
the best possible deal. So the first thing you might
(00:23):
think about when we talk about negotiation might be compensation.
So since she's specifically talking to black people, how bad
are we at negotiating count Black Tech Green Money is
a production of Blavity Afro Tech on the Black Effect
podcast network in iHeartMedia and it's produced by Morgan Debonn
and me Well Lucas, with additional production support by Kate
(00:43):
McDonald and Jada McGee. Special thank you to Michael Davis
and Sarah Ergan. Learn more about my guests and other
tech disruptors and innovators at afrotech dot com. The video
version of this episode will chop to Black Tech Green
Money on YouTube. So tap in joining Black Tech Green Money.
Share this with somebody, I'll get your money. He's in love.
(01:05):
So typically when people write books like this is because
they see a need in the marketplace, they see a
need in their community, or otherwise see a need somewhere.
So let's start with compensation. How bad are we at
negotiating compensation?
Speaker 2 (01:22):
You know, when it comes to compensation, I see a
lot of recurring issues. Right. One, people are really afraid
of hearing no. And sometimes it's that fear of getting
that know And you can call it whatever you want.
You can call it a confrontation, you can call it rejection,
whatever the case may be. But it's that fear of
(01:44):
hearing the know that in the first place may even
prevent the person from mustering up the courage to ask, right.
And then two, once you get that actual no, that
might stall the conversation and prevent you from advancing your needs.
And so I don't know if it's that and then
the other The third thing that I see too is
(02:04):
that people feel as though, how do you assess your value? Right?
How do you when you're talking about comp especially if
you're in an industry that's not transparent in terms of
what people with your education experience, marketability, your specific set
of skills, right are earning? How do you know how
(02:27):
to how to align your value with your ask, and
especially if there's a set amount. So when I think
about comp, I think about pre comp so before you
get that job, right before you're responding to an ad
or what have you, and you currently do not work there,
and so you're like, okay, maybe there's a salary range
(02:48):
and you're trying to figure out where you put yourself
in that range, and so that's that's hard to say.
One thing that people use, of course, is what they're
currently earning if they're already in the field, so that
that's kind of a marker in many jurisdictions. However, it
is not permissible legally, as a recruiter can't ask and
(03:08):
the company can't ask what you're currently making. For example,
in New York, recruiters can't ask you and companies can't
ask you what your current salary is. And that's because historically,
many people of color, I mean, people who check different
boxes were not compensated fairly and they couldn't kind of
move out of that bracket to the next bracket because
(03:28):
they would have to say what they were being paid.
So if you were already being underpaid and then you
have to then tell that to the next person, while
will they be incentivized to pay you what you're worth
or your value or even what the market could bear.
If you're making, you know, five thousand dollars, then you
can be making one hundred thousand dollars. And so when
it comes to comp if it's pre meaning you haven't
(03:50):
started there. I really like to encourage people to ask
for what you want and ask for what you need, right,
and think about why you're asking for what you want.
Is it pecked to what you believe your value is?
Is it what you know the market will bear? What
information do you have because because information is power, So
what information do you have that you can use in
(04:11):
that conversation. The other part of it will is if
you already work somewhere, right, so you already worked there
and now you're like ready to seek a pay increase
or are you trying to have a pay something where
you know you are already there, but you're doing more work.
Maybe they give you more responsibilities because someone left, or
(04:33):
they restructure the organization and now more has fallen on
your shoulders, but they haven't sort of trued up if
you will for how much they should be paying you
so there are different reasons someone could want a salary
increase when they're already employed somewhere that is sometimes more
difficult to do too, right, because you don't want to
maybe you don't want to ruffle any feathers, or you
(04:54):
don't want to come across the wrong way. Maybe the
market in general is bad. And so they're all these
things that people sort of tell themselves as to why
they shouldn't ask for more, tell themselves as still okay
if they say no, I'm just going to stop no.
So when it comes to conversation, I don't think we're
bad at it. I just think that there are many reasons,
(05:16):
both like systemically and also economically, like just thinking about
general economics, and of course just like the the emotional
roller coaster that you may have internally when you're trying
to muster up the courage to even make their requests.
And then what happens if they say no? I have
people ask me this all the time. What if they
say no? Will Like, what if you ask for something
(05:37):
and they tell you no, does a conversation in there?
You yeah, we would you.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Say walk away?
Speaker 2 (05:47):
I think you have to have be very you have
to be aware of what your options are, and I
think you have to understand where you are in your timeline. So,
for example, if you just signed deal or contract, or
you just begin working because in some jurisdictions there isn't
an employment contract, right, it may just be an offer
(06:09):
an acceptance, and then you start working and you're an
at well employee. That's my lawyer hat coming up, right.
But what if you if you just sign and you
just agreed to your salary, and then you get there
and you're like, oh man, this is way more than
they told me I was going to have to do.
And that's happened to all of us right where the
responsibilities didn't really fit the job description. What do you do?
(06:30):
Do you walk away that is an option that you have.
Do you sit it out for a bit and say, okay,
let me see how this works some new here, or
do you start looking for you know, do you start saying, okay,
I'm going to ask for an increase? Right? The timing
of that right may be an issue for a variety
(06:51):
of reasons. As a person who has started two companies,
you know budget, right, you think about what you're willing
to spend and what you're going to do how much
money you can out a key to certain things. And
so yeah, you could be like I'm going to walk away.
You may say I'm going to give it six months.
You may say I'll give it a year. You may
say I want to have a conversation with the person
(07:12):
or the persons who employed me and say, hey, this
doesn't really match up to what I thought I was
going to be doing, and how can we make this
rank and comp. COMP isn't always money, by the way,
like COMP could be you want a flexible work schedule.
Maybe on every summer Fridays you want off. Maybe you
want to work virtually or remotely twice a week. Maybe
(07:36):
you want tuition reimbursements so you can seek some additional
professional development opportunities. So comp also can be much more
expansive than just dollars and cents.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yeah, what do you think about that with regards to you.
During COVID, so many more people went to freelancing and
working for themselves and you know, starting their little you know, boutiques,
I shouldn't say litle, but their boutiques and their niche businesses.
So is there a difference in how you negotiate when
you're talking to an employer like I work for you,
I'm a W two versus I'm a ten ninety nine.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah. I think that's a great question, because I think
there's only a difference if you value what you do differently.
And so what I'll say to that is, I remember
when I first started with my law firm, right, so,
when I left working for someone else and I started
working for myself, and I remember thinking, Okay, there's some
aspects of my work that I'll do at a lower rate.
(08:31):
For example, if I were providing pro bono help or
providing help I'll say this differently, providing assistance to a
nonprofit as opposed to a for profit organization. Should I
and should I build for the lawyers who are working
for me build a lower rate because it's a nonprofit
versus a for profit. Well, at the beginning, yeah, that
made sense to me. But then as I started looking
(08:52):
at the hours and what we were doing, it's the
same amount of work, right, It's the same amount of
your time, your resources. And so I think one way
to look at it is what makes the most sense
if I'm going to work for someone else. There's a
comfort that comes along with having a system that's already
established and you sort of plug into it, and if
there's room for you to get more in the process,
(09:15):
by all mean to do it. When you are freelancing,
I think sometimes what people encounter is that the market
is so vast that someone may be offering the same
thing that you're offering at a lower rate, a much
lower rate where you can't compete because you need to
eat and you have to pay bills. And there are
a lot of reasons why that could happen. So I
(09:36):
tell people that you know, and I've been through many
business programs, right amazing organizations Goldman Sachs ten thousand Small Businesses,
Tory Birch Foundation program as well, in addition to others
that focused on helping entrepreneurs learn the ropes and really excel.
And so some of the things that I've learned I applied.
(09:56):
Not only do I apply, I help and teach others.
With that being said, I would say if you're in
a freelance business, A lot of folks went to freelancing
during COVID, as you mentioned, and when you're offering something
where the market is saturated, then you have to figure
out what you need, right, So are you able to
offer it at a lower rate, or do you is
(10:17):
it better to have one hundred gigs at a low
rate or five gigs? Right? Well, five gigs and get
you there? Right? What would you do? What would you do?
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Would you prefer rather less clients and more money? Almost clients?
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (10:32):
What I found is so interesting about that is I
when I started one of my businesses early, I used
to just do business for anybody that would allow me
to do business with them. And I realized the ones
who paid me the least amount of money were the
hardest to please, and the ones who paid me more
like as long as I delivered, I never heard from them.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
And when it happened good. And when it happens like that,
I think you have to assess right, like is you
must have had some awareness to recognize that, right at
some point, like, hey, was that worth all the hard
egg of stress? Right? Was it? Maybe? Not?
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Absolutely? And so I'm interested in your take on this.
I sit on a couple of boards and we're going
through a big contract negotiation with one of that I
won't mention specifics, but one of the boards I'm working
on and we are going through contract negotiation with an executive,
and it reminds me of a situation where he wants
something or she wants something, and because they were an
(11:32):
internal candidate, they may not get what they could get
somewhere else. And so what I learned is even in
my own experience, I used to do radio way long
time ago, one hundred years ago, and I realized I
would never be seen because I came up as an intern.
I would never be seen as at the same level
as somebody who came in from a different station, a
(11:53):
different market, at different et cetera, because I came up internally.
So sometimes you have to leave and go somewhere else
to be and recognize and appropriately paid because they saw
you know, that's little Will or that's little Bolly. So
you have to leave sometimes in order to get the
reward for your efforts and experience and etc. Can you
(12:13):
speak to that.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
I'm so happy you said that, because some people exactly
what you said. They grew up in the organization and
they are loyal Will. I mean, we have all been there.
We're like, oh, I used to go back to the
same place to work every summer when I was in
college because I love working there. And they looked out
for me, and I would keep going back. And so
when you feel that familiarity, sometimes it is hard to
(12:37):
negotiate with leverage. It could also be the opposite, right,
you know a lot about the company, You have institutional knowledge, right,
and so there are things that you bring to the
table that someone coming from the outside won't be able
to do. So to me, that's just an additional opportunity, right,
additional leverage that you can utilize to your advantage and
the negotiation. And I say that because something that I
(12:59):
like talk about in my book is reframing how you
see disadvantages as advantages so that you can expand your toolkit.
But for people who were in the company and it's
best to sort of go somewhere else to start fresh,
I think that goes both ways. Meaning the company sees
you as little little demali and that you know they
(13:20):
want someone from the outside, and sometimes the unknown might
be more appealing. And I've seen exactly that on boards
where you have like an interim person and that person
only has that position for a year because they don't
want people to think that they that they aren't going
to get great candidates from the outside because that person
has an advantage because they're there on the same hand
(13:43):
or at the same time. You may also be like,
you know what, everyone knows me. They're never going to
see me as this fully developed professional because I started
when I was a summer associate, and so I want
to start fresh and new. And you also may be
more emboldened to ask for what you need, right because
it's not the person who used to have lunch with,
(14:04):
you know, or to have those water cooler chats with.
So I don't think there's like a fast rule on it.
It really depends, And I think whatever's going to give
you the most confidence to ask for what you need,
and perhaps what you want is what you should do.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
How do I know that a role I'm going for
lasting on compensation at least for now? How do I
know that a role I'm up for they're open to
negotiate if they list the job is, you know, sixty
thousand dollars a year one hundred thousand? How do I
know and confidently approach them with like, Hey, is there
an opportunity to have a conversation about this, but it
was listed at that number?
Speaker 2 (14:41):
I would ask the question, that's the only way you
could know, right, And so sometimes it's it says sixty K,
but maybe there's some wiggle room. Sometimes the compensation package
is not just that salary, right, so sometimes there may
be more. And so what I've found is that it
depends the question is the time of when the ask occurs, right,
(15:01):
because I think most people want if it says sixty K,
they may or may not apply for the job if
they know they need eighty k. Right, So if you're
looking at a job opening and you know to cover
your expenses you need eighty K, that's also it's already
going to weed out some people. But there may be
some people who are like, this is like a great opportunity,
I really want it. Maybe it's an organization you want
(15:22):
to get your foot in the door, right, and so
you know, let's see, let's just go in there and
see if there are any synergies. Let me go through
the interview process. And so the question is at what
point during the interview process do you ask about whether
there's any flexibility in the compensation. I've seen some people
have success asking at the beginning before they get too
(15:45):
far in the process, because if they know they need
eighty K, and it's a hard sixty K is really
not the best use of anyone's time to go through
the whole process, meet with eight people, and then you
get to the enmity they're ready to sign the deal
and you're like, see, I need twenty game. Some people
do it at the beginning. I have actually seen some
(16:06):
very successful negotiations because, as you can probably imagine, people
call me all the time at different stages in their negotiations,
and I've seen some very successful ones where and I
think this is a really great way to have leverage
if you go through the process and you there's a range,
and this usually happens when there's a range, so you
(16:28):
know if they say where it's like starting at sixty
K as opposed to sixty K or sixty K through
to eighty K, then to me, that's how you know
that there's wiggle room. But if you want to check,
if you want to confirm, and you want to ask
during the interview process, I would wait to see if
it's the right fit for both you and for both
(16:49):
and the others. For the cut organization, I would talk
to not your boss or future boss, but whoever's in
h R right, because that gives you some right that
person can be the intermediary and can ask the questions
and find out internally without perhaps you know, rubbing the
person you're going to be reporting to you the wrong way.
(17:12):
So I would utilize that intermediary and I would ask
that person, you know, is there any tell me about
the range? Or can we talk about the range? And
or can we be how creative can the compensation package be?
I like that question will because they might be willing
to do things that you wouldn't even have considered because
(17:32):
there's some precedent internally within the organization, and how would
you have known that? So they may say, you know,
we have a bonus structure that I haven't mentioned. We
don't always talk about unless someone asks the question. They say,
you know, we also have some stock options or something
similar to deferred packages. They may have some restrictive stock
(17:58):
units right that require you to be employed for a
certain period of time. So maybe you say, okay, I'll
sign on for three years and I won't leave for
three years because you know, because you know that for
over that three year period your RSUs will vest. So
there are a lot of different ways to be strategic
(18:18):
about come and to ask and to think about who
you're asking and when you're asking, whether there's flexibility and
the amount that they're offering at the start.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Yeah, what I hear you saying, which I think is
really good, is you've got to be clear on what
is the value to you, What is the worth to
you of this role, because the employer is clear on
what it's worth to them, but if you're walking in,
you're not sure what it's worth to you to do this.
And I think about this from this perspective of I
hear so many people who are public figures and they
(18:50):
won't get on the stage unless they're making X. And
while I understand that because a lot of people will
take advantage of you and use you to sell tickets
and they won't pay you anything. Sometimes there's just a
sage you need to be on that isn't paying. But
it puts you in a position to be in front
of people that you may need to be in front of.
So you have to not see it, to your point
(19:12):
as dollars, but then what other benefits are there and
you got to measure those as well.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
I'm happy you said that too, because you're what I'm
hearing too is opportunity costs right there you go, and
some things, yeah, some things aren't just dollars and cents.
I teach at law school and I talk to my
law students a lot, and as you're getting ready to
go out into the world as a young lawyer, there
are a lot of things you have to think about,
especially if you think about like a general contract. Right,
(19:38):
people asking this all the time, well can you do
this under the contract? And I'll look at the terms
of the contract with the strict interpretation and say yes.
But then the next question that should that should follow
is should you do yes right? So should you do it?
You can't be allowed to do it right? Well, you can,
what should you? And I think the same thing applies
(20:00):
to the situation where you know, and it happens a
lot well, where people all want a piece of view,
and there's only so much time, and sometimes a good
way to evaluate what you should be doing with that
time it comes down to just comes down to math, right,
and economics. But I do think that sometimes there is
(20:20):
a stage you should be on, and sometimes you don't
know how that's going to lead to the next opportunity,
and so sometimes you just kept a sort of follow
where the path will lead you, but everyone doesn't always
have the benefit of being able to do that.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Yeah, well, I'm glad you brought up the conversation of
you know, your legal background and your students, because I was.
I was having a conversation with a friend of mine
and she's a female black attorney and she went to
Howard to do her law studies and we had this
really interesting conversation. Actually mentioned this one another previous episode
where she was taught that you know, when you grow up,
(20:55):
you watch Law and Order and you watch these attorneys
on TV. You know, they're banging the desk in the courtroom,
and their white guys or their white ladies, and they're
doing all this louds and stuff, and you know, being
really aggressive in the courtroom. And she said, her professor say,
you can't do that, though, because you will be seen
differently than that white guy or that white lady, or
that less milanated person. But you, as a black woman,
(21:18):
you go in that courtroom and you started slamming your
fist on the desk, They're going to see you a
whole different way. And so the reason I position this
question this way is is are there differences in how
we need to negotiate versus what our counterparts can get
away with.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
I love this question. You know, perception is really huge
and where everyone has control over what they say, how
they say it, you know, we can be very thoughtful
about it. And on the other side of communication, it's
how the person is hearing it and receiving it and
(21:55):
perceiving it right. And that's going to be based on experience, exposure, exposure, education, bias,
implicit bias. It could be a whole series of things.
And so when we're talking about this example of attorneys, like,
(22:15):
I can't speak for every field, but the last time
I checked the ABA stats, I think only like a
very small percentage of lawyers were for black for example,
let's say two percent or five percent, and maybe two
percent where women or something to that effect. It was
a very small amount. And so if you think about that,
(22:37):
that means that the dominant perception of what a lawyer
looks like, sounds like, ats like, talks like in general
is still that of a white male, right, And so
then if you have to think about that being the
culture around the law, then how do you be your
(23:02):
authentic self in this area where authenticity has been defined
and popularized on TV in a certain way, right, And
so I like the question a lot because perception is
I mean, it's amazing to me you can say something
(23:22):
the same way as someone else, but if you look
like me, someone can say, well, you seem angry and defensive,
and then you're just like, well, I wasn't angry or defensive,
but now I am, like, wait, now I am because
you just said like two words that you probably shouldn't
have said to me, only because I was frustrated and annoyed,
(23:43):
which is within the whole realm of human emotion based
on this situation. So I think what's interesting about that.
I saw a movie recently that had Jamie Fox in it,
and he was a lawyer based on a real case,
and he was like a lawyer from the South and
he was working on this big case and you know
what we were talking about.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
It was so good, yes, and it was.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
So good, and he didn't change his you know, he
was still sort of like this amazing person. But then
he and he was the same way. And then there
was a black woman lawyer on the other side, and
you know, she went to Howard, which I was like, yes,
and you know, they still had a lot of respect
for each other even though they were across from each other,
because again, you know, and they got they hired her
(24:31):
by the way, because they were like, oh, the other
side has like a prominent black attorney, so they knew
they need to get another prominent black attorney on the
other side. So I say all this to say, yes,
the burial, it was so good, it was so good.
And so I tell us to say that I do
think that. And let me let me preface this by saying,
I went to Spelman for undergrad I went to Middlebury,
(24:55):
which at that time was still called Monterey Institute of
National Studies, which was say, half international, half Americans. In California,
I went to Howard Law. I've also been to over
fifty countries and six continents. So I want to be
clear that when I'm making these statements, it's not like
for me speaking in a vacuum. It's for me having
studying abroad in four countries. It's for me traveling extensively.
(25:18):
It's for me like being in different rooms where I
was the youngest, the only woman, the only woman of color,
the only black women, and also seeing other people in
these spaces and places, and having had extensive conversations and
having conducted a lot of research. So research is key
because it's not just about like, my perception, but what
(25:40):
are the studies also showing. So do I think that
in many spaces there's still a perception of what is
acceptable from some people and unacceptable from others one hundred
percent one hundred percent. And that's not just limited to
my field of the law.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
So I'm interested in your perspective on this thing. So historically,
at least as a non lawyer, you know, at least
my view of the law is like if we disagreed
on something thirty forty fifty years ago, you know, you're
in court, like we sue, you sue You mean I
sue you were in court today. You have all these
alternative dispute resolution avenues, you can take mediation, you know,
(26:26):
all these all these things. I'll let you talk about
the various types. Can you talk about how those types
of things are evolving and what in what circumstances you
would go down each particular route.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
This is such a great question. I know you hear
me saying that a lot, but sometimes you know, people
don't ask great questions and you're just like zero, I
WoT to answer, but you asked, and I knew you
would because I listened to your podcast and I love it.
You're a wonderful, wonderful host, and I'm a big fan.
So stop my fan girling for a moment to answer you.
I appreciate it, but it's it's I'm telling you the truth.
(27:04):
You know. Like you said many years ago, the only
way people knew how to seek justice for any type
of claim they had was to go to court. You
still see it on TV. I'm going to sue you.
You see all the time, nobody is like, I'm gonna
take you to mediation. Nobody said, right, it doesn't have
(27:29):
the same like stupid right, I'm gonna get an arbitrator.
What Like nobody, nobody ever ever says that, and so
and so. It became something that people knew just like,
if something's wrong, I'm going to call police, right Like
that was the only area that people knew to call
(27:50):
if something happened. I know, someone a bear was in
their trash and they called the police. I was like,
I'm a bear. I was just like, you call That's
that's what came to their mind. They're the bear going
through our trash. Call nine one. What like, I'm not
aunting them, but I'm just like, I'm the bear. So
for people who have an issue, for many years, it
(28:14):
was just a standard some you do something wrong to me,
I'm going to see you. If I follow in your store,
I'm going to see you. If I can't, if I
need a business divorce, right, I'm going to see you.
And that was just how it worked, and most contracts
reflected that right. So contracts, if there was any claim
that needed to be brought, it would talk about what
(28:34):
would happen and what jurisdiction would you go to court?
What would be the choice of law or the governing
law for this situation, And that's how it was. Many
years ago you started to see more industries adopt alternative
dispute resolution processes in their contracts. So, for example, most
(28:56):
people have a cell phone. Right, if you ever have
some free time and you want to read the terms
of use, which people just say yes to you all
the time, not this nerd. I'm like, oh, what is
this saying? What am I going to to use this phone?
Do I need to get a pager? But at the
point is you ever, if you ever look at it,
what you'll see is that if you have any claim
(29:20):
that you want to bring, you have relinquished your right
to go to jury trial and you've accepted arbitration as
the forum for your complaint. And what's interesting about that
is not just for your phone, if you're on a computer,
like you're on a computer, I'm assuming, or you have
a video camera, all these different tech you know, all
(29:43):
this different technology. Often in schools, if your kid is
in a private school and there's a contract, all these
different things are now usually instead of going to litigation,
are preferring first, usually negotiation. Right in the a continuum
of dispute resolution processes, there's negotiation first where there's no
(30:05):
third party. Then there's mediation. Well there's sort of shuttle diplomacy.
So what you see happening when a president goes from
country to country to try to get you know, sides
to agree. You have that shuttle diplomacy or conciliation, and
then you have mediation where you have a third person
who's involved. And with like negotiation or conciliation or mediation,
(30:26):
that third person in the middle isn't making a decision.
So contracts will say, you know, try to negotiate first.
And if that doesn't doesn't work. Go to mediation. I'm
also a mediator, and so you can find someone who
can literally get in the middle and help you try
to reach a resolution. And then you have arbitration. Now
you have a person who is a decision maker.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
The thing about arbitration is that it's not that different
from litigation, where you have a judge or a jury
of your peers deciding the fate of the situation. But
with now, with mediation and arbitration, these processes are being
put into contracts because it's a better business roof. And
(31:10):
what I mean by that is hugely faster. It's usually
less expensive to go to court, and many jurisdictions in
many states sometimes you can follow claim and you may
not see a judge for several years, will several years.
You may not even have your first hearing for eighteen months. Right. So,
to imagine if you were in a situation that was
(31:32):
time sensitive. What if your neighbor is encroaching on your land.
What if something is happening in your job and you're like,
what am I supposed to do in the meantime? What
you want to separate? As you don't know what to do.
Some of these processes are faster and you can control
the cost. Litigation is very expensive, so you can control
(31:52):
the cost. It's more efficient. And then with mediation especially,
you can have your day in court. And what I
mean by that is you can speak, you can you
can come and say how you feel, you can say
how it's made you feel. It's less formal of a
process than arbitration and then litigation, which is at the
end of the continuum of dispute resolution. And so when
(32:15):
you're talking about how things have changed, I've seen companies
recognize that having a dispute resolution process embedded into a
contract or if you look at your employment agreement in general,
or if you look at your phone in terms of
user computer or almost almost everything now they're incorporating. You know,
(32:37):
they're thinking about how to not just speed up the
process if there's an issue, but how to keep the
cost down. A lot of money is spent fighting claims
and all industries. Tech is not, you know, on the
outside of this and all industries. So it's just a
smart businessman.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
So finally I give you this. So I'm interested that
in your best toolkit for getting into a negotiation when
you know you're about to walk into one. What do
you say I should be equipped with it, and I'm gonna
give you what I think, and then I'll let you
tell me if it's a good strategy or so. My
strategy is to think, I want to do my best
(33:18):
to understand what that person wants, and if I can
understand what they want, I can position myself to either say,
you know what what they want, what I'm willing to
give them for what to help me it they want.
That helps me determine if it's even a fit for me.
But if I know what they want, I understand how
to approach them with my alternative take or my ability
(33:42):
to assist them in getting what they want, and then
so all the other things waterfall from there. If I
understand what you try, what you're trying to get out
of this, then I'm better equipped to make sure that
we find a ground that we both can live with.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Well, I'm going to say I like that a lot,
and I can tell that that's been very useful in
your life, like figuring out what the other side wants
and then figuring out Okay, now that I know what
they want, then I can try to meet what their
wants and then also get what I want to right,
And I like how you said it's like a waterfall
down from there. I think that's a really smart strategy, Will,
(34:17):
And if it works for you, you keep on doing it.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Okay, Okay, keep.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Doing What I'm going to say is that I think
that going into every negotiation, there's there are five foundational elements,
and I call them the foundational five in my book
that every negotiation has. And the first one is knowing
what you want right, and your take on it too
(34:44):
is what does the other side want? And I'll get
to that in the moment. But for the foundational five,
know what you want and by the way, things that
you have to know no, So you have to know
what you want, know what you need, know how to
to actively listen, know how to communicate, and know when
to close, because how many times have you gotten like one, two, three,
and four, but you didn't know when to stop, You
(35:05):
didn't know when to walk away, And it was like
now is now a good time? So what should I do?
And so when I hear you talking about knowing what
the other person wants, I love that and I'm going
to push you. I'm going to push you Will to
say go past the want, because the one is what
they're articulating that they want, and get to the why
(35:26):
do they want it? That's the need Because people will
tell you what they want all the time. You know,
I want to raise, I want a new car, I
want to get ready before I'm thirty. You know what
they want. But when you start to unpack that, understand
why they want it, because you may not be able
to get them. You meet them where they are. What
(35:47):
if you know what I want? Right? What if I
tell you I want X and you know that, but
you don't know why I want it? To think about like,
if you knew why I wanted it, then maybe you
can help me meet that need a different way, maybe
even in a way that I didn't think about it. Right.
And I know you can do this because when we
(36:07):
were chatting and I was asking some questions about podcasting,
you you you heard what I needed. So it might
just be a little bit of semantics with want and need, right,
I do think that they're different. I do think that
when people say that they want is usually more fixed.
And if you can figure out the need and to
(36:28):
your point, like where there's some shared common goals and
common ground then everything does water fall from there. And
part of that what I'm hearing you say, and I
know that you do because you're very successful, is you
have to be listening to them. People don't always listen
when someone else is talking. Well, I mean, you've made
a career of listening to people. I mean, so you
(36:50):
get it. But people don't always listen. They don't listen
because they don't they're thinking about what they're going to
say next. They are not listening because they don't like
what they're hearing, right, so they stop listening. And if
we're being honest, sometimes people don't listen because they don't
like the other person who's talking, right. They have no
regard for that person, and they don't want to hear
(37:10):
what they're saying. But the way that you learn what
someone wants and what they need is to actively listen
to what they're saying and perhaps hearing what they aren't
saying right, and seeing the nonverbal cues, and then communicating
in a way that's thoughtful. Right. That communication to me,
(37:31):
and I think that's why I put listening first and
then communicating like it's in order to kind of get
somewhere in a negotiation. Don't get me wrong, I can talk,
but I like to listen and kind of take it
out and then know when to walk away. Did you
concede too much? Did you give them everything they wanted
and you only got one or two things that you wanted?
(37:53):
But are they weigh the same? Right? Maybe what you
wanted was really what you needed, right, And so it's
okay to close and wrap it up. And so I
think that if there was one takeaway in terms of
like getting what you what you need in a negotiation.
(38:14):
And I always say, like, you know, I don't know,
will Like there's this song back in the day that
was like, you don't you can't always get what you want,
but if you try, sometimes you get what you need.
And I've said that to like groups of people who
I'll say are a lot younger than me, and they're
just like, I've never heard that song. So you know
this song? I want it, I got it, I want it.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
I know that song.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
That's a more contemporary song. I have to like change
my analogies, but it's like that, like I feel like
the reason that I think people are successful in negotiations
oftentimes goes deeper than helping people get what they want.
It's like getting what they need. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Yeah, it makes total sense. Negotiating wild Black. Where can
we get it? Tell us about it?
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Like you. I appreciate that. You know my book is
available anywhere you buy books. Uh, it's everywhere right now.
The editors at Amazon picked it as a top pick
for the month of June. They make it as best
in nonfiction. Evane said, you have to read it as
thank you so much. Esen said it's one of the
(39:23):
top fifteen books to dive into this summer. Ebany said
one of I'm one of blackla, one of black authors
to read this summer, along with like Questlove and Taraji
p Henson. I love being in their company. To Rogi's
from DC like me. I play the drums like Questlove.
No what we have to have a jam session? Will lot?
(39:47):
I want to do over a jam session. I want
to see it over. And you know, I've heard a
lot of episodes and I didn't know you were a
drum running. Can you say this.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
About it much? But I've been playing Jones. I was ten.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
I even heard it was an Aaron Samuel say that
he was traveling doing spoken spoken word. I was so
impressed and all this time you were a drummer and
I didn't even know. Yeah, me too, me too. We
have to have a damn session, you know, I have
to have a jam session. I The book is everywhere.
(40:21):
I mean, I think what's as important as knowing that
it's everywhere everywhere Amazon, Bars and Noble, Target, Walmart everywhere
is when you read, when you read it, review it.
I think that that's something that people are buying you.
That's great. And then review it, you know, tell tell
people what you think of the book. I spent a
lot of time writing and researching. The stories are good stories,
(40:45):
but it's not just story based. We come from a
people who are storytellers. We agree as right, so the
stories are are still good stories and there's no legally's will.
It's not boring. It's like you and I talking right now.
It's also all on audible. I recorded, I narrated myself.
They have me in the studio. Well, I wish I
was playing the drums, but they.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Have the Molly Peterman So glad to have you. Thank
you for joining me.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Thank you so much, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Black Tech Green Money is a production of Blavity afro
Tech on the Black Effect Podcast Networking Night, Hiartmedia and
it's produced by Morgan Debaun and me Well Lucas with
the addigital production support by Kate McDonald, Saarah Ergan and
Jada McGee. Special thank you to Michael Davis and Love Beach.
Learn more about my Guess and other tech. Destructor is
an innovators at afrotech dot com. The video version of
(41:35):
this episode will drop to Black Tech Green Money on YouTube,
so tap in, enjoy your Black Tech Green Money, share
us to somebody go get your money. Peace and love,
Demali Peterman is a highly reguarded and sought after lawyer, mediator, negotiator, educator,
and speaker with nearly twenty years of experience in the
alternative dispute resolution field. She's founder and CEO of two companies,
Breakthrough ADR and Demali Law. Her new book, Negotiating While Black,
helps you leverage your unique strends and walk away with
the best possible deal. So the first thing you might
(00:23):
think about when we talk about negotiation might be compensation.
So since she's specifically talking to black people, how bad
are we at negotiating count Black Tech Green Money is
a production of Blavity Afro Tech on the Black Effect
podcast network in iHeartMedia and it's produced by Morgan Debonn
and me Well Lucas, with additional production support by Kate
(00:43):
McDonald and Jada McGee. Special thank you to Michael Davis
and Sarah Ergan. Learn more about my guests and other
tech disruptors and innovators at afrotech dot com. The video
version of this episode will chop to Black Tech Green
Money on YouTube. So tap in joining Black Tech Green Money.
Share this with somebody, I'll get your money. He's in love.
(01:05):
So typically when people write books like this is because
they see a need in the marketplace, they see a
need in their community, or otherwise see a need somewhere.
So let's start with compensation. How bad are we at
negotiating compensation?
Speaker 2 (01:22):
You know, when it comes to compensation, I see a
lot of recurring issues. Right. One, people are really afraid
of hearing no. And sometimes it's that fear of getting
that know And you can call it whatever you want.
You can call it a confrontation, you can call it rejection,
whatever the case may be. But it's that fear of
(01:44):
hearing the know that in the first place may even
prevent the person from mustering up the courage to ask, right.
And then two, once you get that actual no, that
might stall the conversation and prevent you from advancing your needs.
And so I don't know if it's that and then
the other The third thing that I see too is
(02:04):
that people feel as though, how do you assess your value? Right?
How do you when you're talking about comp especially if
you're in an industry that's not transparent in terms of
what people with your education experience, marketability, your specific set
of skills, right are earning? How do you know how
(02:27):
to how to align your value with your ask, and
especially if there's a set amount. So when I think
about comp, I think about pre comp so before you
get that job, right before you're responding to an ad
or what have you, and you currently do not work there,
and so you're like, okay, maybe there's a salary range
(02:48):
and you're trying to figure out where you put yourself
in that range, and so that's that's hard to say.
One thing that people use, of course, is what they're
currently earning if they're already in the field, so that
that's kind of a marker in many jurisdictions. However, it
is not permissible legally, as a recruiter can't ask and
(03:08):
the company can't ask what you're currently making. For example,
in New York, recruiters can't ask you and companies can't
ask you what your current salary is. And that's because historically,
many people of color, I mean, people who check different
boxes were not compensated fairly and they couldn't kind of
move out of that bracket to the next bracket because
(03:28):
they would have to say what they were being paid.
So if you were already being underpaid and then you
have to then tell that to the next person, while
will they be incentivized to pay you what you're worth
or your value or even what the market could bear.
If you're making, you know, five thousand dollars, then you
can be making one hundred thousand dollars. And so when
it comes to comp if it's pre meaning you haven't
(03:50):
started there. I really like to encourage people to ask
for what you want and ask for what you need, right,
and think about why you're asking for what you want.
Is it pecked to what you believe your value is?
Is it what you know the market will bear? What
information do you have because because information is power, So
what information do you have that you can use in
(04:11):
that conversation. The other part of it will is if
you already work somewhere, right, so you already worked there
and now you're like ready to seek a pay increase
or are you trying to have a pay something where
you know you are already there, but you're doing more work.
Maybe they give you more responsibilities because someone left, or
(04:33):
they restructure the organization and now more has fallen on
your shoulders, but they haven't sort of trued up if
you will for how much they should be paying you
so there are different reasons someone could want a salary
increase when they're already employed somewhere that is sometimes more
difficult to do too, right, because you don't want to
maybe you don't want to ruffle any feathers, or you
(04:54):
don't want to come across the wrong way. Maybe the
market in general is bad. And so they're all these
things that people sort of tell themselves as to why
they shouldn't ask for more, tell themselves as still okay
if they say no, I'm just going to stop no.
So when it comes to conversation, I don't think we're
bad at it. I just think that there are many reasons,
(05:16):
both like systemically and also economically, like just thinking about
general economics, and of course just like the the emotional
roller coaster that you may have internally when you're trying
to muster up the courage to even make their requests.
And then what happens if they say no? I have
people ask me this all the time. What if they
say no? Will Like, what if you ask for something
(05:37):
and they tell you no, does a conversation in there?
You yeah, we would you.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Say walk away?
Speaker 2 (05:47):
I think you have to have be very you have
to be aware of what your options are, and I
think you have to understand where you are in your timeline. So,
for example, if you just signed deal or contract, or
you just begin working because in some jurisdictions there isn't
an employment contract, right, it may just be an offer
(06:09):
an acceptance, and then you start working and you're an
at well employee. That's my lawyer hat coming up, right.
But what if you if you just sign and you
just agreed to your salary, and then you get there
and you're like, oh man, this is way more than
they told me I was going to have to do.
And that's happened to all of us right where the
responsibilities didn't really fit the job description. What do you do?
(06:30):
Do you walk away that is an option that you have.
Do you sit it out for a bit and say, okay,
let me see how this works some new here, or
do you start looking for you know, do you start saying, okay,
I'm going to ask for an increase? Right? The timing
of that right may be an issue for a variety
(06:51):
of reasons. As a person who has started two companies,
you know budget, right, you think about what you're willing
to spend and what you're going to do how much
money you can out a key to certain things. And
so yeah, you could be like I'm going to walk away.
You may say I'm going to give it six months.
You may say I'll give it a year. You may
say I want to have a conversation with the person
(07:12):
or the persons who employed me and say, hey, this
doesn't really match up to what I thought I was
going to be doing, and how can we make this
rank and comp. COMP isn't always money, by the way,
like COMP could be you want a flexible work schedule.
Maybe on every summer Fridays you want off. Maybe you
want to work virtually or remotely twice a week. Maybe
(07:36):
you want tuition reimbursements so you can seek some additional
professional development opportunities. So comp also can be much more
expansive than just dollars and cents.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yeah, what do you think about that with regards to you.
During COVID, so many more people went to freelancing and
working for themselves and you know, starting their little you know, boutiques,
I shouldn't say litle, but their boutiques and their niche businesses.
So is there a difference in how you negotiate when
you're talking to an employer like I work for you,
I'm a W two versus I'm a ten ninety nine.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah. I think that's a great question, because I think
there's only a difference if you value what you do differently.
And so what I'll say to that is, I remember
when I first started with my law firm, right, so,
when I left working for someone else and I started
working for myself, and I remember thinking, Okay, there's some
aspects of my work that I'll do at a lower rate.
(08:31):
For example, if I were providing pro bono help or
providing help I'll say this differently, providing assistance to a
nonprofit as opposed to a for profit organization. Should I
and should I build for the lawyers who are working
for me build a lower rate because it's a nonprofit
versus a for profit. Well, at the beginning, yeah, that
made sense to me. But then as I started looking
(08:52):
at the hours and what we were doing, it's the
same amount of work, right, It's the same amount of
your time, your resources. And so I think one way
to look at it is what makes the most sense
if I'm going to work for someone else. There's a
comfort that comes along with having a system that's already
established and you sort of plug into it, and if
there's room for you to get more in the process,
(09:15):
by all mean to do it. When you are freelancing,
I think sometimes what people encounter is that the market
is so vast that someone may be offering the same
thing that you're offering at a lower rate, a much
lower rate where you can't compete because you need to
eat and you have to pay bills. And there are
a lot of reasons why that could happen. So I
(09:36):
tell people that you know, and I've been through many
business programs, right amazing organizations Goldman Sachs ten thousand Small Businesses,
Tory Birch Foundation program as well, in addition to others
that focused on helping entrepreneurs learn the ropes and really excel.
And so some of the things that I've learned I applied.
(09:56):
Not only do I apply, I help and teach others.
With that being said, I would say if you're in
a freelance business, A lot of folks went to freelancing
during COVID, as you mentioned, and when you're offering something
where the market is saturated, then you have to figure
out what you need, right, So are you able to
offer it at a lower rate, or do you is
(10:17):
it better to have one hundred gigs at a low
rate or five gigs? Right? Well, five gigs and get
you there? Right? What would you do? What would you do?
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Would you prefer rather less clients and more money? Almost clients?
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (10:32):
What I found is so interesting about that is I
when I started one of my businesses early, I used
to just do business for anybody that would allow me
to do business with them. And I realized the ones
who paid me the least amount of money were the
hardest to please, and the ones who paid me more
like as long as I delivered, I never heard from them.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
And when it happened good. And when it happens like that,
I think you have to assess right, like is you
must have had some awareness to recognize that, right at
some point, like, hey, was that worth all the hard
egg of stress? Right? Was it? Maybe? Not?
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Absolutely? And so I'm interested in your take on this.
I sit on a couple of boards and we're going
through a big contract negotiation with one of that I
won't mention specifics, but one of the boards I'm working
on and we are going through contract negotiation with an executive,
and it reminds me of a situation where he wants
something or she wants something, and because they were an
(11:32):
internal candidate, they may not get what they could get
somewhere else. And so what I learned is even in
my own experience, I used to do radio way long
time ago, one hundred years ago, and I realized I
would never be seen because I came up as an intern.
I would never be seen as at the same level
as somebody who came in from a different station, a
(11:53):
different market, at different et cetera, because I came up internally.
So sometimes you have to leave and go somewhere else
to be and recognize and appropriately paid because they saw
you know, that's little Will or that's little Bolly. So
you have to leave sometimes in order to get the
reward for your efforts and experience and etc. Can you
(12:13):
speak to that.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
I'm so happy you said that, because some people exactly
what you said. They grew up in the organization and
they are loyal Will. I mean, we have all been there.
We're like, oh, I used to go back to the
same place to work every summer when I was in
college because I love working there. And they looked out
for me, and I would keep going back. And so
when you feel that familiarity, sometimes it is hard to
(12:37):
negotiate with leverage. It could also be the opposite, right,
you know a lot about the company, You have institutional knowledge, right,
and so there are things that you bring to the
table that someone coming from the outside won't be able
to do. So to me, that's just an additional opportunity, right,
additional leverage that you can utilize to your advantage and
the negotiation. And I say that because something that I
(12:59):
like talk about in my book is reframing how you
see disadvantages as advantages so that you can expand your toolkit.
But for people who were in the company and it's
best to sort of go somewhere else to start fresh,
I think that goes both ways. Meaning the company sees
you as little little demali and that you know they
(13:20):
want someone from the outside, and sometimes the unknown might
be more appealing. And I've seen exactly that on boards
where you have like an interim person and that person
only has that position for a year because they don't
want people to think that they that they aren't going
to get great candidates from the outside because that person
has an advantage because they're there on the same hand
(13:43):
or at the same time. You may also be like,
you know what, everyone knows me. They're never going to
see me as this fully developed professional because I started
when I was a summer associate, and so I want
to start fresh and new. And you also may be
more emboldened to ask for what you need, right because
it's not the person who used to have lunch with,
(14:04):
you know, or to have those water cooler chats with.
So I don't think there's like a fast rule on it.
It really depends, And I think whatever's going to give
you the most confidence to ask for what you need,
and perhaps what you want is what you should do.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
How do I know that a role I'm going for
lasting on compensation at least for now? How do I
know that a role I'm up for they're open to
negotiate if they list the job is, you know, sixty
thousand dollars a year one hundred thousand? How do I
know and confidently approach them with like, Hey, is there
an opportunity to have a conversation about this, but it
was listed at that number?
Speaker 2 (14:41):
I would ask the question, that's the only way you
could know, right, And so sometimes it's it says sixty K,
but maybe there's some wiggle room. Sometimes the compensation package
is not just that salary, right, so sometimes there may
be more. And so what I've found is that it
depends the question is the time of when the ask occurs, right,
(15:01):
because I think most people want if it says sixty K,
they may or may not apply for the job if
they know they need eighty k. Right, So if you're
looking at a job opening and you know to cover
your expenses you need eighty K, that's also it's already
going to weed out some people. But there may be
some people who are like, this is like a great opportunity,
I really want it. Maybe it's an organization you want
(15:22):
to get your foot in the door, right, and so
you know, let's see, let's just go in there and
see if there are any synergies. Let me go through
the interview process. And so the question is at what
point during the interview process do you ask about whether
there's any flexibility in the compensation. I've seen some people
have success asking at the beginning before they get too
(15:45):
far in the process, because if they know they need
eighty K, and it's a hard sixty K is really
not the best use of anyone's time to go through
the whole process, meet with eight people, and then you
get to the enmity they're ready to sign the deal
and you're like, see, I need twenty game. Some people
do it at the beginning. I have actually seen some
(16:06):
very successful negotiations because, as you can probably imagine, people
call me all the time at different stages in their negotiations,
and I've seen some very successful ones where and I
think this is a really great way to have leverage
if you go through the process and you there's a range,
and this usually happens when there's a range, so you
(16:28):
know if they say where it's like starting at sixty
K as opposed to sixty K or sixty K through
to eighty K, then to me, that's how you know
that there's wiggle room. But if you want to check,
if you want to confirm, and you want to ask
during the interview process, I would wait to see if
it's the right fit for both you and for both
(16:49):
and the others. For the cut organization, I would talk
to not your boss or future boss, but whoever's in
h R right, because that gives you some right that
person can be the intermediary and can ask the questions
and find out internally without perhaps you know, rubbing the
person you're going to be reporting to you the wrong way.
(17:12):
So I would utilize that intermediary and I would ask
that person, you know, is there any tell me about
the range? Or can we talk about the range? And
or can we be how creative can the compensation package be?
I like that question will because they might be willing
to do things that you wouldn't even have considered because
(17:32):
there's some precedent internally within the organization, and how would
you have known that? So they may say, you know,
we have a bonus structure that I haven't mentioned. We
don't always talk about unless someone asks the question. They say,
you know, we also have some stock options or something
similar to deferred packages. They may have some restrictive stock
(17:58):
units right that require you to be employed for a
certain period of time. So maybe you say, okay, I'll
sign on for three years and I won't leave for
three years because you know, because you know that for
over that three year period your RSUs will vest. So
there are a lot of different ways to be strategic
(18:18):
about come and to ask and to think about who
you're asking and when you're asking, whether there's flexibility and
the amount that they're offering at the start.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Yeah, what I hear you saying, which I think is
really good, is you've got to be clear on what
is the value to you, What is the worth to
you of this role, because the employer is clear on
what it's worth to them, but if you're walking in,
you're not sure what it's worth to you to do this.
And I think about this from this perspective of I
hear so many people who are public figures and they
(18:50):
won't get on the stage unless they're making X. And
while I understand that because a lot of people will
take advantage of you and use you to sell tickets
and they won't pay you anything. Sometimes there's just a
sage you need to be on that isn't paying. But
it puts you in a position to be in front
of people that you may need to be in front of.
So you have to not see it, to your point
(19:12):
as dollars, but then what other benefits are there and
you got to measure those as well.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
I'm happy you said that too, because you're what I'm
hearing too is opportunity costs right there you go, and
some things, yeah, some things aren't just dollars and cents.
I teach at law school and I talk to my
law students a lot, and as you're getting ready to
go out into the world as a young lawyer, there
are a lot of things you have to think about,
especially if you think about like a general contract. Right,
(19:38):
people asking this all the time, well can you do
this under the contract? And I'll look at the terms
of the contract with the strict interpretation and say yes.
But then the next question that should that should follow
is should you do yes right? So should you do it?
You can't be allowed to do it right? Well, you can,
what should you? And I think the same thing applies
(20:00):
to the situation where you know, and it happens a
lot well, where people all want a piece of view,
and there's only so much time, and sometimes a good
way to evaluate what you should be doing with that
time it comes down to just comes down to math, right,
and economics. But I do think that sometimes there is
(20:20):
a stage you should be on, and sometimes you don't
know how that's going to lead to the next opportunity,
and so sometimes you just kept a sort of follow
where the path will lead you, but everyone doesn't always
have the benefit of being able to do that.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Yeah, well, I'm glad you brought up the conversation of
you know, your legal background and your students, because I was.
I was having a conversation with a friend of mine
and she's a female black attorney and she went to
Howard to do her law studies and we had this
really interesting conversation. Actually mentioned this one another previous episode
where she was taught that you know, when you grow up,
(20:55):
you watch Law and Order and you watch these attorneys
on TV. You know, they're banging the desk in the courtroom,
and their white guys or their white ladies, and they're
doing all this louds and stuff, and you know, being
really aggressive in the courtroom. And she said, her professor say,
you can't do that, though, because you will be seen
differently than that white guy or that white lady, or
that less milanated person. But you, as a black woman,
(21:18):
you go in that courtroom and you started slamming your
fist on the desk, They're going to see you a
whole different way. And so the reason I position this
question this way is is are there differences in how
we need to negotiate versus what our counterparts can get
away with.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
I love this question. You know, perception is really huge
and where everyone has control over what they say, how
they say it, you know, we can be very thoughtful
about it. And on the other side of communication, it's
how the person is hearing it and receiving it and
(21:55):
perceiving it right. And that's going to be based on experience, exposure, exposure, education, bias,
implicit bias. It could be a whole series of things.
And so when we're talking about this example of attorneys, like,
(22:15):
I can't speak for every field, but the last time
I checked the ABA stats, I think only like a
very small percentage of lawyers were for black for example,
let's say two percent or five percent, and maybe two
percent where women or something to that effect. It was
a very small amount. And so if you think about that,
(22:37):
that means that the dominant perception of what a lawyer
looks like, sounds like, ats like, talks like in general
is still that of a white male, right, And so
then if you have to think about that being the
culture around the law, then how do you be your
(23:02):
authentic self in this area where authenticity has been defined
and popularized on TV in a certain way, right, And
so I like the question a lot because perception is
I mean, it's amazing to me you can say something
(23:22):
the same way as someone else, but if you look
like me, someone can say, well, you seem angry and defensive,
and then you're just like, well, I wasn't angry or defensive,
but now I am, like, wait, now I am because
you just said like two words that you probably shouldn't
have said to me, only because I was frustrated and annoyed,
(23:43):
which is within the whole realm of human emotion based
on this situation. So I think what's interesting about that.
I saw a movie recently that had Jamie Fox in it,
and he was a lawyer based on a real case,
and he was like a lawyer from the South and
he was working on this big case and you know
what we were talking about.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
It was so good, yes, and it was.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
So good, and he didn't change his you know, he
was still sort of like this amazing person. But then
he and he was the same way. And then there
was a black woman lawyer on the other side, and
you know, she went to Howard, which I was like, yes,
and you know, they still had a lot of respect
for each other even though they were across from each other,
because again, you know, and they got they hired her
(24:31):
by the way, because they were like, oh, the other
side has like a prominent black attorney, so they knew
they need to get another prominent black attorney on the
other side. So I say all this to say, yes,
the burial, it was so good, it was so good.
And so I tell us to say that I do
think that. And let me let me preface this by saying,
I went to Spelman for undergrad I went to Middlebury,
(24:55):
which at that time was still called Monterey Institute of
National Studies, which was say, half international, half Americans. In California,
I went to Howard Law. I've also been to over
fifty countries and six continents. So I want to be
clear that when I'm making these statements, it's not like
for me speaking in a vacuum. It's for me having
studying abroad in four countries. It's for me traveling extensively.
(25:18):
It's for me like being in different rooms where I
was the youngest, the only woman, the only woman of color,
the only black women, and also seeing other people in
these spaces and places, and having had extensive conversations and
having conducted a lot of research. So research is key
because it's not just about like, my perception, but what
(25:40):
are the studies also showing. So do I think that
in many spaces there's still a perception of what is
acceptable from some people and unacceptable from others one hundred
percent one hundred percent. And that's not just limited to
my field of the law.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
So I'm interested in your perspective on this thing. So historically,
at least as a non lawyer, you know, at least
my view of the law is like if we disagreed
on something thirty forty fifty years ago, you know, you're
in court, like we sue, you sue You mean I
sue you were in court today. You have all these
alternative dispute resolution avenues, you can take mediation, you know,
(26:26):
all these all these things. I'll let you talk about
the various types. Can you talk about how those types
of things are evolving and what in what circumstances you
would go down each particular route.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
This is such a great question. I know you hear
me saying that a lot, but sometimes you know, people
don't ask great questions and you're just like zero, I
WoT to answer, but you asked, and I knew you
would because I listened to your podcast and I love it.
You're a wonderful, wonderful host, and I'm a big fan.
So stop my fan girling for a moment to answer you.
I appreciate it, but it's it's I'm telling you the truth.
(27:04):
You know. Like you said many years ago, the only
way people knew how to seek justice for any type
of claim they had was to go to court. You
still see it on TV. I'm going to sue you.
You see all the time, nobody is like, I'm gonna
take you to mediation. Nobody said, right, it doesn't have
(27:29):
the same like stupid right, I'm gonna get an arbitrator.
What Like nobody, nobody ever ever says that, and so
and so. It became something that people knew just like,
if something's wrong, I'm going to call police, right Like
that was the only area that people knew to call
(27:50):
if something happened. I know, someone a bear was in
their trash and they called the police. I was like,
I'm a bear. I was just like, you call That's
that's what came to their mind. They're the bear going
through our trash. Call nine one. What like, I'm not
aunting them, but I'm just like, I'm the bear. So
for people who have an issue, for many years, it
(28:14):
was just a standard some you do something wrong to me,
I'm going to see you. If I follow in your store,
I'm going to see you. If I can't, if I
need a business divorce, right, I'm going to see you.
And that was just how it worked, and most contracts
reflected that right. So contracts, if there was any claim
that needed to be brought, it would talk about what
(28:34):
would happen and what jurisdiction would you go to court?
What would be the choice of law or the governing
law for this situation, And that's how it was. Many
years ago you started to see more industries adopt alternative
dispute resolution processes in their contracts. So, for example, most
(28:56):
people have a cell phone. Right, if you ever have
some free time and you want to read the terms
of use, which people just say yes to you all
the time, not this nerd. I'm like, oh, what is
this saying? What am I going to to use this phone?
Do I need to get a pager? But at the
point is you ever, if you ever look at it,
what you'll see is that if you have any claim
(29:20):
that you want to bring, you have relinquished your right
to go to jury trial and you've accepted arbitration as
the forum for your complaint. And what's interesting about that
is not just for your phone, if you're on a computer,
like you're on a computer, I'm assuming, or you have
a video camera, all these different tech you know, all
(29:43):
this different technology. Often in schools, if your kid is
in a private school and there's a contract, all these
different things are now usually instead of going to litigation,
are preferring first, usually negotiation. Right in the a continuum
of dispute resolution processes, there's negotiation first where there's no
(30:05):
third party. Then there's mediation. Well there's sort of shuttle diplomacy.
So what you see happening when a president goes from
country to country to try to get you know, sides
to agree. You have that shuttle diplomacy or conciliation, and
then you have mediation where you have a third person
who's involved. And with like negotiation or conciliation or mediation,
(30:26):
that third person in the middle isn't making a decision.
So contracts will say, you know, try to negotiate first.
And if that doesn't doesn't work. Go to mediation. I'm
also a mediator, and so you can find someone who
can literally get in the middle and help you try
to reach a resolution. And then you have arbitration. Now
you have a person who is a decision maker.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
The thing about arbitration is that it's not that different
from litigation, where you have a judge or a jury
of your peers deciding the fate of the situation. But
with now, with mediation and arbitration, these processes are being
put into contracts because it's a better business roof. And
(31:10):
what I mean by that is hugely faster. It's usually
less expensive to go to court, and many jurisdictions in
many states sometimes you can follow claim and you may
not see a judge for several years, will several years.
You may not even have your first hearing for eighteen months. Right. So,
to imagine if you were in a situation that was
(31:32):
time sensitive. What if your neighbor is encroaching on your land.
What if something is happening in your job and you're like,
what am I supposed to do in the meantime? What
you want to separate? As you don't know what to do.
Some of these processes are faster and you can control
the cost. Litigation is very expensive, so you can control
(31:52):
the cost. It's more efficient. And then with mediation especially,
you can have your day in court. And what I
mean by that is you can speak, you can you
can come and say how you feel, you can say
how it's made you feel. It's less formal of a
process than arbitration and then litigation, which is at the
end of the continuum of dispute resolution. And so when
(32:15):
you're talking about how things have changed, I've seen companies
recognize that having a dispute resolution process embedded into a
contract or if you look at your employment agreement in general,
or if you look at your phone in terms of
user computer or almost almost everything now they're incorporating. You know,
(32:37):
they're thinking about how to not just speed up the
process if there's an issue, but how to keep the
cost down. A lot of money is spent fighting claims
and all industries. Tech is not, you know, on the
outside of this and all industries. So it's just a
smart businessman.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
So finally I give you this. So I'm interested that
in your best toolkit for getting into a negotiation when
you know you're about to walk into one. What do
you say I should be equipped with it, and I'm gonna
give you what I think, and then I'll let you
tell me if it's a good strategy or so. My
strategy is to think, I want to do my best
(33:18):
to understand what that person wants, and if I can
understand what they want, I can position myself to either say,
you know what what they want, what I'm willing to
give them for what to help me it they want.
That helps me determine if it's even a fit for me.
But if I know what they want, I understand how
to approach them with my alternative take or my ability
(33:42):
to assist them in getting what they want, and then
so all the other things waterfall from there. If I
understand what you try, what you're trying to get out
of this, then I'm better equipped to make sure that
we find a ground that we both can live with.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Well, I'm going to say I like that a lot,
and I can tell that that's been very useful in
your life, like figuring out what the other side wants
and then figuring out Okay, now that I know what
they want, then I can try to meet what their
wants and then also get what I want to right,
And I like how you said it's like a waterfall
down from there. I think that's a really smart strategy, Will,
(34:17):
And if it works for you, you keep on doing it.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Okay, Okay, keep.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Doing What I'm going to say is that I think
that going into every negotiation, there's there are five foundational elements,
and I call them the foundational five in my book
that every negotiation has. And the first one is knowing
what you want right, and your take on it too
(34:44):
is what does the other side want? And I'll get
to that in the moment. But for the foundational five,
know what you want and by the way, things that
you have to know no, So you have to know
what you want, know what you need, know how to
to actively listen, know how to communicate, and know when
to close, because how many times have you gotten like one, two, three,
and four, but you didn't know when to stop, You
(35:05):
didn't know when to walk away, And it was like
now is now a good time? So what should I do?
And so when I hear you talking about knowing what
the other person wants, I love that and I'm going
to push you. I'm going to push you Will to
say go past the want, because the one is what
they're articulating that they want, and get to the why
(35:26):
do they want it? That's the need Because people will
tell you what they want all the time. You know,
I want to raise, I want a new car, I
want to get ready before I'm thirty. You know what
they want. But when you start to unpack that, understand
why they want it, because you may not be able
to get them. You meet them where they are. What
(35:47):
if you know what I want? Right? What if I
tell you I want X and you know that, but
you don't know why I want it? To think about like,
if you knew why I wanted it, then maybe you
can help me meet that need a different way, maybe
even in a way that I didn't think about it. Right.
And I know you can do this because when we
(36:07):
were chatting and I was asking some questions about podcasting,
you you you heard what I needed. So it might
just be a little bit of semantics with want and need, right,
I do think that they're different. I do think that
when people say that they want is usually more fixed.
And if you can figure out the need and to
(36:28):
your point, like where there's some shared common goals and
common ground then everything does water fall from there. And
part of that what I'm hearing you say, and I
know that you do because you're very successful, is you
have to be listening to them. People don't always listen
when someone else is talking. Well, I mean, you've made
a career of listening to people. I mean, so you
(36:50):
get it. But people don't always listen. They don't listen
because they don't they're thinking about what they're going to
say next. They are not listening because they don't like
what they're hearing, right, so they stop listening. And if
we're being honest, sometimes people don't listen because they don't
like the other person who's talking, right. They have no
regard for that person, and they don't want to hear
(37:10):
what they're saying. But the way that you learn what
someone wants and what they need is to actively listen
to what they're saying and perhaps hearing what they aren't
saying right, and seeing the nonverbal cues, and then communicating
in a way that's thoughtful. Right. That communication to me,
(37:31):
and I think that's why I put listening first and
then communicating like it's in order to kind of get
somewhere in a negotiation. Don't get me wrong, I can talk,
but I like to listen and kind of take it
out and then know when to walk away. Did you
concede too much? Did you give them everything they wanted
and you only got one or two things that you wanted?
(37:53):
But are they weigh the same? Right? Maybe what you
wanted was really what you needed, right, And so it's
okay to close and wrap it up. And so I
think that if there was one takeaway in terms of
like getting what you what you need in a negotiation.
(38:14):
And I always say, like, you know, I don't know,
will Like there's this song back in the day that
was like, you don't you can't always get what you want,
but if you try, sometimes you get what you need.
And I've said that to like groups of people who
I'll say are a lot younger than me, and they're
just like, I've never heard that song. So you know
this song? I want it, I got it, I want it.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
I know that song.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
That's a more contemporary song. I have to like change
my analogies, but it's like that, like I feel like
the reason that I think people are successful in negotiations
oftentimes goes deeper than helping people get what they want.
It's like getting what they need. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Yeah, it makes total sense. Negotiating wild Black. Where can
we get it? Tell us about it?
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Like you. I appreciate that. You know my book is
available anywhere you buy books. Uh, it's everywhere right now.
The editors at Amazon picked it as a top pick
for the month of June. They make it as best
in nonfiction. Evane said, you have to read it as
thank you so much. Esen said it's one of the
(39:23):
top fifteen books to dive into this summer. Ebany said
one of I'm one of blackla, one of black authors
to read this summer, along with like Questlove and Taraji
p Henson. I love being in their company. To Rogi's
from DC like me. I play the drums like Questlove.
No what we have to have a jam session? Will lot?
(39:47):
I want to do over a jam session. I want
to see it over. And you know, I've heard a
lot of episodes and I didn't know you were a
drum running. Can you say this.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
About it much? But I've been playing Jones. I was ten.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
I even heard it was an Aaron Samuel say that
he was traveling doing spoken spoken word. I was so
impressed and all this time you were a drummer and
I didn't even know. Yeah, me too, me too. We
have to have a damn session, you know, I have
to have a jam session. I The book is everywhere.
(40:21):
I mean, I think what's as important as knowing that
it's everywhere everywhere Amazon, Bars and Noble, Target, Walmart everywhere
is when you read, when you read it, review it.
I think that that's something that people are buying you.
That's great. And then review it, you know, tell tell
people what you think of the book. I spent a
lot of time writing and researching. The stories are good stories,
(40:45):
but it's not just story based. We come from a
people who are storytellers. We agree as right, so the
stories are are still good stories and there's no legally's will.
It's not boring. It's like you and I talking right now.
It's also all on audible. I recorded, I narrated myself.
They have me in the studio. Well, I wish I
was playing the drums, but they.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Have the Molly Peterman So glad to have you. Thank
you for joining me.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Thank you so much, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Black Tech Green Money is a production of Blavity afro
Tech on the Black Effect Podcast Networking Night, Hiartmedia and
it's produced by Morgan Debaun and me Well Lucas with
the addigital production support by Kate McDonald, Saarah Ergan and
Jada McGee. Special thank you to Michael Davis and Love Beach.
Learn more about my Guess and other tech. Destructor is
an innovators at afrotech dot com. The video version of
(41:35):
this episode will drop to Black Tech Green Money on YouTube,
so tap in, enjoy your Black Tech Green Money, share
us to somebody go get your money. Peace and love,
Host
Will Lucas
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