September 21, 2021 • 31 mins
Ita Ekpoudom is partner at Gingerbread Capital, and her mission is to engage, educate, and elevate the next generation of successful women business leaders and investors. She holds an MBA in Marketing and Entrepreneurial Management from The Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania; and earned a Bachelor’s degree in Psychology, and a certificate in Finance, from Princeton University.
On Term Sheets, a 3 episode video series, which is available to watch in full on YouTube, I travelled to NYC to meet Ita to discuss venture capital in New York City, and what it takes to be a successful venture capitalist.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
M Black Tech, Green Money, Season one, episode two. Brian
Michael Cox is a music producer songwriter responsible for more
than a hundred million album sales, thirty five number one hits,
and twelve Grammy nominations, including nine wins. He's been a
(00:20):
friend of mine for more than twenty years, and I
wanted to get his thoughts on the deep relationship between
music and technology that many of us don't fully appreciate.
Music producers today program computers. The best producers on the
planet navigate logic Appleton, FL and pro tools, which is programming.
And I don't think we we don't. We don't call
(00:42):
it the two because we're being creative and we used
as a tool like, oh, it's just our tool to
create music, but it's literally programming. And the way that
I view, like people who use FL, I view it
kind of like how kind of how when I was
coming up, right, we was coming up the elementary school
and middle school, you know, Steve Jobs is something very
(01:06):
very revolutionary right by you know, you me that you
couldn't really compete with corporate America at the time. You know,
you know, IBM was was the was the standard. You know,
Dell was the standard. These were the standard PCs and
corporate America. Right, So if you introduce Apples to corporate America,
(01:29):
they you know, there was some resistance. But what do
you do. You say, Okay, we're gonna raise up the
next year racorship. Uh, computer users. So if we can't
get into these big corporate offices and put the pressers
to corporate officers who put our systems at elementary schools
and middle schools in the high schools, you know what
(01:50):
I mean. So my first computer I ever worked on
a regular basis was an Apple to eat. You know,
as a little kid, that keyboard or that applitude keyboard
is the same exact keyboard that we use right now
when our bathroom pros, you know what I mean. So
what happened that as the program as a kid, Like,
(02:10):
my first computer I touched was an Apple two years
So as they developed and you get older and and
you go to different schools, you you you go from
middle school to middle school to high school. By said
I got a high school. McIntoshes were every high school
that I you know that we that I knew. So
in my high school, I'm using mcatogies. So you graduated
high school and you know my twelfth grade years when
(02:34):
I when love grade years when I first started using
like music software, Apple the only company that was really
making software for music, you know what I mean. Yeah,
So so as a creative my group, I'm using Apple.
So to this day, as a forty two ye old
person has been to used me for twenty some years,
(02:54):
all I want to used Apple products, you know what
I mean. It's the un you know, unintentionally or it
might have been attentional on his part, but on our part,
unintentionally creating their own consumer right. SOFL is that same
exact thing, right, So think about this now, I use
app you know, I'm an Apple user, right, but the
(03:16):
average person in it could corporate world, they're using PCs
right right, So if you have a PC in your
in your in your corporate world and um um um
in you're my age and you might have gotten married
young or you might have you know, a young child,
he's seventeen eighteen, you know, fifteen years old, you know,
(03:39):
and I only compute at the houses a PC and
they want to make music. WELLFL was giving. It was
it was free. A f used to be free because
they when you were you back in the day ten
years ago, fifteen years ago, FL was free. It was
a free download. So if your mom at a PC
and you couldn't afford the Mac question, you couldn't getting
(04:00):
mad because Mac was popping, you know, twothous and that
moments because I already I'm a downloading FL and I'm
gonna start making my little beats on FL. And people
kind of shunned FL initially professionals, you know, because it
was it was like a game, almost a video game
the way that we view it then, right, But what
(04:21):
we didn't realize what was happening that they were basically
building the future consumer. Now all those kids that were
making beats or flor fifteen years ago are top my
hot hearted producers. F FL is the number one dog,
you know what I mean, and the business right now.
All these kids that are to do this program A
(04:41):
lot of our musicians that you learn how to programming,
they still don't even understand that that's what they're doing.
I think that the kids trying to connect the dots
and let people know that, yo, you're a computer programmer too.
Wo yeah, okay, so you can actually not just make
beats and program you create this ship. You create something.
(05:02):
You can actually do something with this that's way bigger
than what you even thinking you're doing. I'm Will Lucas
and this is black tech, green money. I'm gonna ensue
to some of the biggest names, some of the brightest
minds and brilliant ideas. If you're black and building or
simply using Texas to kill your bag, It's podcast is
for you either act put. I'm his partner at Gingerbrand
(05:29):
Capital when remission is to engage, educate, and elevate the
next generation of success for women business leaders and investors.
She holds an NBA and Marketing and entrepreneur Your Management
from the Warden School, University of Pennsylvania, and she had
the bachelor's degree in psychology and a Certificate and Finance
from Princeton University. On Term Sheets a three episode video
(05:52):
series which is available to watch it full on YouTube.
I travel to New York City to me either to
discuss venture capital in New York City and what it
takes to be a successful injury capitalist tickle walk and
(06:18):
so talk to me a little bit about having these
conversations with vcs on how to navigate and find your
way into a VC role and some would say, you know,
you need to be a business student and find your
way and talk to me about how you think people's
best path forward to finding a VC role looks today. Sure,
I mean I can tell you my own path, and
then I can tell you kind of the historical paths
(06:39):
that I've seen. Uh, there's kind of two main ways
you come in from finance. Either you had an investment
banking or consulting background and then you move over into
that world of investing UM from the venture side, or
you're an ex operator and entrepreneur and then you move
over from that perspective having been an operator. So though
those are the two aspects, and I person and I
(07:00):
started my career in investment banking. I worked at Goldman
Sachs uh analyst program, so I did analysts and associate
years at Goldman. But I didn't go into venture right
out of After going into vestment banking, actually went to
business school. You know a lot of people do that,
that path of thinking about what's next UM. And so
post business school, I went and worked for American Express.
I did the traditional big corporate job, and then I
(07:23):
actually went to a smaller private equity owned companies. So
I saw the difference between private equity, which is looking
at later stage, much more established businesses, and venture capital,
which is looking at the earlier stage. And I think
for me what kind of made the difference was that
when you're going into private equity, these companies have been
around for decades maybe longer than that, that are being
(07:44):
acquired and brought together. Venture is about the new and
starting things at the beginning. And I think around the
time when I made the decision that I wanted to
leave traditional corporate America, I was reading all these articles
that were saying things like women don't want to be
you know, CEOs women and just want to create kind
of lifestyle businesses and they're not looking to be at
the top. They don't want to run the same race.
(08:06):
And I was like, m those are not the women
that I went to college with, worked at Goldman Sacks with,
and just the women in my network. And I realized
that I also saw a lot of women leaving traditional
corporate and going out neither starting their own things. And
that was the path I took. I literally left UM.
I didn't know what I was going to do next,
and I took eight months off and I traveled, I
was lucky that I had the kind of safety net
(08:28):
to be able to do that. But it was during
that course I went across Africa, Europe, the US, and
I was talking to my female friends along the way,
and we were having similar conversations about, you know, we
want our work to mean something. We want if we're
leaving family or kids or all these kind of things.
We wanted to be worth something, and that's kind of
what led me to start my own advisory company. So
(08:48):
I decided, Okay, I know what I want to focus on.
I want to focus on women entrepreneurs, women investors, kind
of galvanizing the community. That's the contract what I'm reading.
And then I decided, okay, how am I going to
do that? Do I want to join a start up
or do I want to you know, code do it
on my own? And I realized that consulting and doing
advisory work was the best way for me to get in,
(09:09):
even though I did it in the back of my
mind no that I wanted to do investing. But you know,
I think I would argue that no woman ever has
just been like, you know, maybe had I been a
guy leaving Goldman, I would be like, I'm ready to
launch that fund and I'll go launch of fun and
possibly could have done it, but it's very challenging back
then and even now for a woman to just kind
(09:29):
of stand up and raise a fund. And you're seeing
it's exciting that more and more women are raising venture
capital funds, but you're seeing that they're smaller relative to
their male peers, and the track record that they often
have is much more extensive in having done it, like
by themselves before they started it. And so you know,
I was like, let me do it with the way
I feel comfortable, in the way that I think that
(09:50):
I could bring the most value. So I used my
network and I started working and taking on engagements for
women founders that I knew we were looking for help.
And then you know, women investors. I was an investment banking.
We got paid well, and I knew guys that started
making private investments when we were analysts associates. I knew
none of my women friends, including some that are still
(10:11):
there to this day, that had made a private investment.
Now that's strange, it's not you know, I'm sure there's
pay gaps there too, but you're starting off with a
population that does have disposable income that they can use.
Men are using it, women are not. Why is that? So?
I wanted to do something around that conversation of both
women as entrepreneurs who wanted to start and lead big
(10:33):
companies and then women as investors who wanted to actually
deploy capital for future games. So that was the finance perspective.
But like you know, you asked the question about how
you get into venture capital, it is such a relationship
driven industry that you really have to be in the
spaces where investors are to start building the relationships that
(10:55):
will get you top of mind so that when these
job openings happen. It's not like investment banks they do
analyst classes. They hire it every year after college, you
bring in fifty into the firm at the same time.
Most vcs are very small. They may have, you know,
one or two, Some like the Kleiners and Sequoias, have
larger partner basis, but most of them are very small,
(11:17):
and when the openings happen, they're filled by word of mouth.
So you've got to get in the flow of where
the word of mouth is happening so that you can
be somebody that people think of when they want to say, oh,
we're looking for a new investor. Do you not know
anybody an analysts associate that can come in and step in.
(11:37):
You mentioned when you were reading those articles and they
were saying any women don't want to do the X,
Y and Z, And you're saying, well, not the people
that I grew up with. And do you think it's
those stories and narratives reinforced to women that there is
not a place for them in these seeds, and therefore
those investment banker women don't invest because they don't see
(11:58):
their stories being told. Well, I mean, let's be clear,
Like it wasn't the people I grew up with. I mean,
I'm the child of immigrants. I was actually born in Nigeria.
We moved to the US one I was five, and
I grew up in southern Virginia much more surrounded by
you know, academics. My parents. My father was a professor
and we lived around the military basis, so I didn't
know any vcs growing up that, like, the thought never
(12:19):
even crossed my mind that venture capital existed. I knew
finance because my father was a professor of finance, but
I didn't even know really about Wall Street until I
got to college, and that's where you know, I went
to Princeton for college and there was recruiting. There was
heavy recruiting that would come on campus, and that's where
I thought finance from the perspective of the application of
it in the in Wall Street. But you know, if
(12:42):
you've never thought about it before, if it's not something
that now I regularly interact with vcs, never would have
crossed my mind that me at eighteen going to college,
that I would be a venture capitalist today. No, it
never even crossed my end. But I had to be
exposed to it, and I to be exposed to I
(13:02):
was lucky to be exposed to the full spectrum of it.
I started my career at the opposite end where every
VC hopes that their portfolio company gets to getting taken
public by a company like Goldman, working with multinational, multi
billion dollar companies. I got to see that aspect and
then I've actually gone backwards to go back to the
beginning of where these companies are starting. And I think
(13:24):
what did that for me was that I realized I
loved the energy that comes from that Wall Street world,
but I love the relationships that comes from the venture
world because you're still at these early stages, these companies,
these founders still want advice. They actually want to hear
from their investors. They want to hear from their customers.
Unlike you know, when you're a large multinational, you hear
(13:46):
get the quarterly earnings call, maybe they'll take you, and
a maybe they won't, and it's just kind of until
there's an activist investor that steps in that you really
kind of hear anything. But in venture it's you're in
the trenches with them. They want you in the trenches
with them, which I really love. So I guess we
made an assumption that women do want to Why should
women consider venture investing, I guess not even just venture,
(14:11):
but investing as a mode of something they should be
involved in. Yes, So, you know, building a diversified portfolio
of assets and asset classes is important for anybody that's
trying to build wealth and building you know, not just
uh wealth to live on, but like generational wealth. And
when you look at where a lot of these new
(14:33):
millionaires billionaires are coming out of, Yes, there are ones
that are doing you know, the hedge funds and trading
in the public markets, but there are a lot more
that have either built a company, and look at Mark Zuckerberg.
He started Facebook and college has stayed with it throughout
and it's turned it into a multibillion dollar entity that
is going to transcend his lifetime, his children's lifetime. Investors
(14:55):
that went in at like fifty dollars into Facebook were
returned I think several hundred million. So that kind of
return you don't necessarily get in the public markets the
way you'll see when you start something from zero and
watch it exit and stay through to the other side.
So when we think about generational wealth, closing income inequality,
(15:16):
but it's hard because not everybody has the disposable income
to be able to do this. And so I would
also stress that you know, investing is incredibly risky. Most
startups fail, Most investments will not succeed. They will either
go directly to zero or maybe return you the money
that you put in if you're lucky. But most especially
(15:38):
in the venture space, because it's so about high growth
and building companies that you think will be the next
multibillion dollar kind of unicorns, that is a high risk,
high reward proposition. So if you're thinking about being an investor,
there's two paths. Either you go as an individual and
start investing your own personal capital, or you go into
more of an institutional and joint as employ way associate
(16:02):
partner level to invest on behalf of other people's money. Uh,
And getting to those opportunities is really it's it's hard,
and it's really about they won't find you, you have
to go find them. Yeah, I'm I'm really interested in
your take on, um, the opportunities black women and black men,
(16:22):
just black people in general have with regardless to starting companies,
because so often we get pigeonholed into well, you guys
start these types of companies because that's how we think
of these stereotypical types of things. And not saying that
there's anything bad with starting a company that is stereotypically so,
but how do you think about the opportunities that might
(16:43):
be available that we may not consider at large, um,
that we can play those those fields. Well, I mean,
the investing game and private markets and capitalism is about
meeting the needs of unserved or untapped populations. So you know,
I think that black men, women, people in general we
(17:04):
have been underserved in a lot of different market opportunities,
and we are also poised to be the people that
can have solutions to those market inefficiencies. What becomes challenging
is when the people on the other side of the
table have never experienced those It's hard to invest in
something that you literally never experienced or can't wrap your
mind around, or you know, oftentimes there's the story of
(17:27):
you know, a VC will be like I'll ask my
wife if it's a woman sitting in front of him,
and if the wife. You know, I think Jenn Hyman
and Jenny Flies talk about it from rent the runway
at the beginning they talk to investors and like, my
wife would never rent address, but she's not the target demographic, right,
or but you know, it's realizing that sometimes just because
it's not the target for you doesn't mean that it's
(17:48):
not a huge population of people where it is a
real problem. So, you know, I think there's absolutely so
many problems and solutions that black founders can do. The
next problem becomes being funded to be able to do it,
especially if your vision is not to do a mom
and pop where you can maybe try to do bank
loans or do you know small capital. Friends and family
(18:11):
is a big thing. Friends and family around is a
big thing of what launches you know, early entrepreneurs, and
we don't always have And if you look around a
friends and family, you know, I grew up in a
very in a middle class family of professors, but you know,
my parents were not ready to I didn't have the
luxury of our president where you've got a million dollars
like startup to go do it. But it's when you
(18:34):
don't have the friends and family, then how do you
It becomes daunting to think about how you even break through.
And so when you do breakthrough, it's about the access um.
Catherine Finney and Digital Undivided, they've done Project Diane, looking
specifically at black and brown women and what is that point?
Oh six percent is going to black women, and I
(18:55):
mean that, you know her. I think the first report
was like, the real unicorns are black women because it's
just so difficult. And somebody was like, it's statistically insignificant.
But one of the portfolio companies in our somebody said
that too, you know, um, one of our portfolio companies,
and she's like, but I'm a person, I am significant.
I'm there because you know, with every single one that happens,
(19:18):
it's bucking that number up and up. But when you're absolute,
and there's so few getting in there, and there's so
much other capital out there, it can feel overwhelming. So
I think what's happening is more of the founders that
are getting through to the other side are I've seen
are reaching back to others to share how they did it.
There's organizations like for for Women looking at al Rays
(19:40):
is doing some great work trying to get women entrepreneurs
and women investors, more women seated in positions of partner
level roles where you're the check writer. Uh, we are
going to attack it on multiple fronts. At Gingerbread Capital,
we've taken the approach of attacking it at multiple fronts,
specifically looking at women entrepreneurs, so we do direct investments
in whom an entrepreneurs, and then we believe that it's
(20:02):
also important to get capital in the hands of women investors,
and so we're limited partners where LPs and funds that
are backed by majority women gps. So for us, we
think that if we get it at both sides, hopefully
that needle will move because the funding is being diversified
on both ads. Who is best positioned than to take
(20:25):
these seats that you talk about in the firms, because
when you talk, when you think about I'm a black
and black male or female founder and I'm going to
AFRO Tech and I see, oh, there's either walking on
the hall. You probably have two hundred people following you
because you are the one who know you look like
them and you can get what they're trying to build.
(20:45):
And when there's so few Eatas and Richard Kirby's and
my Asia leagues and etcetera, all the attention goes to
a handful of vcs who can only write so many checks,
who can only engage with so many entrepreneurs. So who
out there, black women, black man should be considering or
(21:05):
should be at least taking a second look at venture
roles or intesting and startups that may not be today. Yeah. Well,
I think if becoming an investor is something that it's
important to you, you have to you have to start
now to build a personal brand in the space and
to have a point of view. And so that doesn't
mean necessarily writing checks. But there are especially in New York,
(21:28):
which I love being a VC in New York, I
now get to go to both coasts a lot more.
I appreciate so much the New York market because we
physically sit on top of each other, like we are
across eight miles. We can get from you know, we
can start out in Brooklyn and have a meeting in
Manhattan and go up to Harlem, all in the same night,
all in the same day. That really isn't happening on
(21:50):
the West Coast. And I go and see it. If
you're an SF or you're out on the peninsula, people
are like, oh, that thing is out there, oh now,
And in l A it's the same thing. It's very
neighborhood specific, uh, And I think are just general size
of US and the infrastructure that we can use subways
and move through relatively easy has made the New York
market more advantageous. And I would say it's a great
(22:11):
market for women, and it's a great market for people
of color. Also because there's more than one industry exists
in New York, more than one type of people lives
in New York. And we've seen there's finance, there's fashion,
there's retail. There's lots of different things conferge in this market.
And there's great gender dynamics and diversity in this city.
By the nature of again, we're all being on top
(22:31):
of each other, which means that the likelihood of seeing
more people that look different is increased in a population
where it's so concentrated. Uh and where people live in work.
So you know, from the perspective of breaking in in
New York, there's so many like meet up groups and
text there's so many different organizations that are located not
(22:52):
that far away from each other. And silicote what do
we call it in New York Silicon Alley. Yeah, Like
you can just walk down any blocks and they're all
based in like this twenty block radius. So I would
say the great thing is a lot of vcs talk
on either like Instagram or Twitter. Follow the ones in
the New York market if you're a New York based investor,
(23:13):
follow them and they'll talk about where they're speaking at.
They do a lot of speaking engagements. Go to see
where they're speaking at, go to the things that their
pitch competition judges at. That's where you start seeing and
meeting other people that are in that ecosystem, and you
must build relationships. That is key. No matter what, you
have to put yourself out there. May be uncomfortable, but
you have to put yourself out there to start you know,
(23:34):
forming those connections. So let's take me back to seventeen,
the two year old Eida, Oh, the doctor that is
not in front of you today. But let's say you
are intentionally trying to be what you are today. For
those girls out there who do want to do what
you do and are earlier in their career, what would
(23:54):
you have done intentionally to get to where you are today.
One of the things that I even know is looking
at my college, that's different now there are a lot
more resources happening on campuses of talking about entrepreneurship and
talking about different paths that are not you know, traditionally
it was like, you know, you go to banking, you
go to a major corporate, and you go to consulting,
where the paths out of you know, my undergrad was
(24:17):
kind of it. But now there are people are starting
to do classes in entrepreneurship, their clubs around it, their business,
their pitch competitions that are happening at the undergraduate level.
So first of all, I would say look within your
student body. You know, when you get to college, if
this is something on your mind, like you know, there's clubs,
there's there's people. I think about my business school class.
(24:39):
Warry Parker guys came out of my business school class.
They didn't know each other coming in, but they spent
those two years they built those relationships, they brought what
each of their skill set it, and they launched it
spring semester of second year. And you know, we're ten years.
We're about to have our ten year anniversary. Make take
full advantage. College business school are those like years where
(24:59):
you step side and you get to be you know,
you get to be really thinking about yourself because you're
in that school bubble, especially full time programs. So that's
when I would say, really really use the advantage of
getting to know the other students in your class and
finding out I love I personally love taking and I
wish I had taken more of these before. There's all
these kind of strengths tests. There's um, I I love
(25:22):
the Clifton strength I think in T jr UH and
I love taking those things. I still take them all
the time. And then so find out I like to
build towards my strengths. Find out where you think you're
really strong, and then find the people that build out
(25:43):
around that, because that's where the best teams are. You've
got somebody that's bringing a different thing to the table. Uh,
and then you can move that forward. And then internships
in college is also a great time to be able
to get paid unpaid internships sometimes you can get things
for credit. Use college business school as that time to
take the risk and take the jump out on the
(26:03):
leap and go intern for a company or even maybe
try something you know, entrepreneurial over a summer. You will
you if you can. But I also recognize that you
know you you need money to live, and you need
like college is just unless you know you're lucky you
get a full ride. You have to do all those things.
But where there is the ability to align what you
(26:24):
do and what you're get paid for, it if possible
to help you build just the building blocks. It doesn't
have to be you have that killer idea overnight, giving
yourself experiences where you test. Am I a strength at finance?
Am I more of a strength in computer science, which
is now becoming one of the most popular degrees. I
think if I went back out as a psych major
(26:45):
with a certificate in finance, I might have been a
computer science major with a certificated finance. I actually love
and my psychology degree comes in very handy because all
venture is is relationships. Relationships of how to get the
most out of your founders, relationships of how to form
the connections that get access and get you the foot
(27:06):
in the room to get the one that they'll take
your check versus somebody else. So maybe I would have
been a triple major a double major in a minor,
But I do think that that's uh, that having that
kind of background was good. So what is your typical
experience like being a black woman in venture capital when
(27:26):
you find yourself in rooms that you're the only black
person period, right, and talk to me about what it's
like this day and to day out living this life. Well,
I think it started from you know, my first job, right,
I went into Wall Street. I went into you know,
financing in a trading floor setting where there are very
(27:47):
few women. We had five women traders on the floor
of you know, lots more than that, uh, and there
were very few black people. So I have gotten used
to I don't necessarily notice that anywhere, but you always
notice it when you are the only in the room.
But I choose to see that as an advantage. You know,
I have a very My full name is very gender neutrals.
(28:08):
So people sometimes if they haven't looked me up in advance,
they don't know who's going to be to walk through
the door. I've gotten are you Greek? Are you Japanese?
And then I show up, Oh my god. But use
that as a thing. People don't forget you when you're
the only one. So don't feel I've stopped feeling bad
about it. I choose to see it that people always
remember me. It might not be able to remember my
(28:29):
name because be like there was this woman usually like yeah,
but you can you stand out? So use that to
your advantage because that's when there's a lot of you know,
people that are the hoodie wearing white man or all
those kind of things, a lot less people that look
like us in a room. So use that to your advantage.
And then when you when you get that opportunity, make
(28:51):
it count. Make it count by being prepared in terms
of understanding who's in the room. Be prepared to target
your message to who's in the room. The same pitch
as a founder isn't going to work for everyone. If
you're a woman and you know that you're pitching something
that's a female product, do what you know like Jenn
and Jenny did to get through to the male investors
(29:11):
and say, ask that same wife how many events she
goes to and how many outfits she's bought, and quantify
you've seen the credit card receives and turn it into
a way that resonates for that person, and then you
will see you can then bring them over to the
other side. You're not going to drive a winning argument
by just only using your point of view. It has
(29:32):
to resonate for the person on the other side who
is in the position of power. If it's the money,
their money that you want, um, so use that. Use
the fact that you're unique, Use the fact that you
understand who's in that room and how they think, and
then quickly follow up. If they ask you to follow
up and say, hey, I would love you know, to
take a call, send me some materials. Don't spend a
(29:53):
week and a half making the perfect set of materials,
put together fifteen slides are less, and send it over
quickly so that you keep that momentum going because they're
going to be inundated and they want to have you
freshen their minds. So quick follow up, uh short follow
up and answering the questions that were asked and then
turning it into making it. Um really feel like it's
(30:15):
about building that relationship with that person over a long term.
You're not going to get funded in one conversation. Getting
capital adventure space takes time and it takes relationship buildings.
So don't think it's like it's going to happen in
a week. It might take It might happen, but if
chances are it's months that you're looking at. Black TEG
(30:48):
Green Money is the production of Black and the Affro
Tech Black Effect Podcast Network and Nightheart Media produced My Morgan,
Debon and Blue Lucas, with the production supported by love
Be Ruscell Lewis. Special thank you to Michael Davis and
sakasavan Jan you know like the wine. Yes, that's just
really learn more about my guests and other techis represent
(31:11):
innovators at afro tech dot com. The video version of
this episode is on YouTube right now, so tap in,
enjoy your Black Tech Green Money, leave us a five
star rating on night tunes. Go get your money. Peace
of love,
M Black Tech, Green Money, Season one, episode two. Brian
Michael Cox is a music producer songwriter responsible for more
than a hundred million album sales, thirty five number one hits,
and twelve Grammy nominations, including nine wins. He's been a
(00:20):
friend of mine for more than twenty years, and I
wanted to get his thoughts on the deep relationship between
music and technology that many of us don't fully appreciate.
Music producers today program computers. The best producers on the
planet navigate logic Appleton, FL and pro tools, which is programming.
And I don't think we we don't. We don't call
(00:42):
it the two because we're being creative and we used
as a tool like, oh, it's just our tool to
create music, but it's literally programming. And the way that
I view, like people who use FL, I view it
kind of like how kind of how when I was
coming up, right, we was coming up the elementary school
and middle school, you know, Steve Jobs is something very
(01:06):
very revolutionary right by you know, you me that you
couldn't really compete with corporate America at the time. You know,
you know, IBM was was the was the standard. You know,
Dell was the standard. These were the standard PCs and
corporate America. Right, So if you introduce Apples to corporate America,
(01:29):
they you know, there was some resistance. But what do
you do. You say, Okay, we're gonna raise up the
next year racorship. Uh, computer users. So if we can't
get into these big corporate offices and put the pressers
to corporate officers who put our systems at elementary schools
and middle schools in the high schools, you know what
(01:50):
I mean. So my first computer I ever worked on
a regular basis was an Apple to eat. You know,
as a little kid, that keyboard or that applitude keyboard
is the same exact keyboard that we use right now
when our bathroom pros, you know what I mean. So
what happened that as the program as a kid, Like,
(02:10):
my first computer I touched was an Apple two years
So as they developed and you get older and and
you go to different schools, you you you go from
middle school to middle school to high school. By said
I got a high school. McIntoshes were every high school
that I you know that we that I knew. So
in my high school, I'm using mcatogies. So you graduated
high school and you know my twelfth grade years when
(02:34):
I when love grade years when I first started using
like music software, Apple the only company that was really
making software for music, you know what I mean. Yeah,
So so as a creative my group, I'm using Apple.
So to this day, as a forty two ye old
person has been to used me for twenty some years,
(02:54):
all I want to used Apple products, you know what
I mean. It's the un you know, unintentionally or it
might have been attentional on his part, but on our part,
unintentionally creating their own consumer right. SOFL is that same
exact thing, right, So think about this now, I use
app you know, I'm an Apple user, right, but the
(03:16):
average person in it could corporate world, they're using PCs
right right, So if you have a PC in your
in your in your corporate world and um um um
in you're my age and you might have gotten married
young or you might have you know, a young child,
he's seventeen eighteen, you know, fifteen years old, you know,
(03:39):
and I only compute at the houses a PC and
they want to make music. WELLFL was giving. It was
it was free. A f used to be free because
they when you were you back in the day ten
years ago, fifteen years ago, FL was free. It was
a free download. So if your mom at a PC
and you couldn't afford the Mac question, you couldn't getting
(04:00):
mad because Mac was popping, you know, twothous and that
moments because I already I'm a downloading FL and I'm
gonna start making my little beats on FL. And people
kind of shunned FL initially professionals, you know, because it
was it was like a game, almost a video game
the way that we view it then, right, But what
(04:21):
we didn't realize what was happening that they were basically
building the future consumer. Now all those kids that were
making beats or flor fifteen years ago are top my
hot hearted producers. F FL is the number one dog,
you know what I mean, and the business right now.
All these kids that are to do this program A
(04:41):
lot of our musicians that you learn how to programming,
they still don't even understand that that's what they're doing.
I think that the kids trying to connect the dots
and let people know that, yo, you're a computer programmer too.
Wo yeah, okay, so you can actually not just make
beats and program you create this ship. You create something.
(05:02):
You can actually do something with this that's way bigger
than what you even thinking you're doing. I'm Will Lucas
and this is black tech, green money. I'm gonna ensue
to some of the biggest names, some of the brightest
minds and brilliant ideas. If you're black and building or
simply using Texas to kill your bag, It's podcast is
for you either act put. I'm his partner at Gingerbrand
(05:29):
Capital when remission is to engage, educate, and elevate the
next generation of success for women business leaders and investors.
She holds an NBA and Marketing and entrepreneur Your Management
from the Warden School, University of Pennsylvania, and she had
the bachelor's degree in psychology and a Certificate and Finance
from Princeton University. On Term Sheets a three episode video
(05:52):
series which is available to watch it full on YouTube.
I travel to New York City to me either to
discuss venture capital in New York City and what it
takes to be a successful injury capitalist tickle walk and
(06:18):
so talk to me a little bit about having these
conversations with vcs on how to navigate and find your
way into a VC role and some would say, you know,
you need to be a business student and find your
way and talk to me about how you think people's
best path forward to finding a VC role looks today. Sure,
I mean I can tell you my own path, and
then I can tell you kind of the historical paths
(06:39):
that I've seen. Uh, there's kind of two main ways
you come in from finance. Either you had an investment
banking or consulting background and then you move over into
that world of investing UM from the venture side, or
you're an ex operator and entrepreneur and then you move
over from that perspective having been an operator. So though
those are the two aspects, and I person and I
(07:00):
started my career in investment banking. I worked at Goldman
Sachs uh analyst program, so I did analysts and associate
years at Goldman. But I didn't go into venture right
out of After going into vestment banking, actually went to
business school. You know a lot of people do that,
that path of thinking about what's next UM. And so
post business school, I went and worked for American Express.
I did the traditional big corporate job, and then I
(07:23):
actually went to a smaller private equity owned companies. So
I saw the difference between private equity, which is looking
at later stage, much more established businesses, and venture capital,
which is looking at the earlier stage. And I think
for me what kind of made the difference was that
when you're going into private equity, these companies have been
around for decades maybe longer than that, that are being
(07:44):
acquired and brought together. Venture is about the new and
starting things at the beginning. And I think around the
time when I made the decision that I wanted to
leave traditional corporate America, I was reading all these articles
that were saying things like women don't want to be
you know, CEOs women and just want to create kind
of lifestyle businesses and they're not looking to be at
the top. They don't want to run the same race.
(08:06):
And I was like, m those are not the women
that I went to college with, worked at Goldman Sacks with,
and just the women in my network. And I realized
that I also saw a lot of women leaving traditional
corporate and going out neither starting their own things. And
that was the path I took. I literally left UM.
I didn't know what I was going to do next,
and I took eight months off and I traveled, I
was lucky that I had the kind of safety net
(08:28):
to be able to do that. But it was during
that course I went across Africa, Europe, the US, and
I was talking to my female friends along the way,
and we were having similar conversations about, you know, we
want our work to mean something. We want if we're
leaving family or kids or all these kind of things.
We wanted to be worth something, and that's kind of
what led me to start my own advisory company. So
(08:48):
I decided, Okay, I know what I want to focus on.
I want to focus on women entrepreneurs, women investors, kind
of galvanizing the community. That's the contract what I'm reading.
And then I decided, okay, how am I going to
do that? Do I want to join a start up
or do I want to you know, code do it
on my own? And I realized that consulting and doing
advisory work was the best way for me to get in,
(09:09):
even though I did it in the back of my
mind no that I wanted to do investing. But you know,
I think I would argue that no woman ever has
just been like, you know, maybe had I been a
guy leaving Goldman, I would be like, I'm ready to
launch that fund and I'll go launch of fun and
possibly could have done it, but it's very challenging back
then and even now for a woman to just kind
(09:29):
of stand up and raise a fund. And you're seeing
it's exciting that more and more women are raising venture
capital funds, but you're seeing that they're smaller relative to
their male peers, and the track record that they often
have is much more extensive in having done it, like
by themselves before they started it. And so you know,
I was like, let me do it with the way
I feel comfortable, in the way that I think that
(09:50):
I could bring the most value. So I used my
network and I started working and taking on engagements for
women founders that I knew we were looking for help.
And then you know, women investors. I was an investment banking.
We got paid well, and I knew guys that started
making private investments when we were analysts associates. I knew
none of my women friends, including some that are still
(10:11):
there to this day, that had made a private investment.
Now that's strange, it's not you know, I'm sure there's
pay gaps there too, but you're starting off with a
population that does have disposable income that they can use.
Men are using it, women are not. Why is that? So?
I wanted to do something around that conversation of both
women as entrepreneurs who wanted to start and lead big
(10:33):
companies and then women as investors who wanted to actually
deploy capital for future games. So that was the finance perspective.
But like you know, you asked the question about how
you get into venture capital, it is such a relationship
driven industry that you really have to be in the
spaces where investors are to start building the relationships that
(10:55):
will get you top of mind so that when these
job openings happen. It's not like investment banks they do
analyst classes. They hire it every year after college, you
bring in fifty into the firm at the same time.
Most vcs are very small. They may have, you know,
one or two, Some like the Kleiners and Sequoias, have
larger partner basis, but most of them are very small,
(11:17):
and when the openings happen, they're filled by word of mouth.
So you've got to get in the flow of where
the word of mouth is happening so that you can
be somebody that people think of when they want to say, oh,
we're looking for a new investor. Do you not know
anybody an analysts associate that can come in and step in.
(11:37):
You mentioned when you were reading those articles and they
were saying any women don't want to do the X,
Y and Z, And you're saying, well, not the people
that I grew up with. And do you think it's
those stories and narratives reinforced to women that there is
not a place for them in these seeds, and therefore
those investment banker women don't invest because they don't see
(11:58):
their stories being told. Well, I mean, let's be clear,
Like it wasn't the people I grew up with. I mean,
I'm the child of immigrants. I was actually born in Nigeria.
We moved to the US one I was five, and
I grew up in southern Virginia much more surrounded by
you know, academics. My parents. My father was a professor
and we lived around the military basis, so I didn't
know any vcs growing up that, like, the thought never
(12:19):
even crossed my mind that venture capital existed. I knew
finance because my father was a professor of finance, but
I didn't even know really about Wall Street until I
got to college, and that's where you know, I went
to Princeton for college and there was recruiting. There was
heavy recruiting that would come on campus, and that's where
I thought finance from the perspective of the application of
it in the in Wall Street. But you know, if
(12:42):
you've never thought about it before, if it's not something
that now I regularly interact with vcs, never would have
crossed my mind that me at eighteen going to college,
that I would be a venture capitalist today. No, it
never even crossed my end. But I had to be
exposed to it, and I to be exposed to I
(13:02):
was lucky to be exposed to the full spectrum of it.
I started my career at the opposite end where every
VC hopes that their portfolio company gets to getting taken
public by a company like Goldman, working with multinational, multi
billion dollar companies. I got to see that aspect and
then I've actually gone backwards to go back to the
beginning of where these companies are starting. And I think
(13:24):
what did that for me was that I realized I
loved the energy that comes from that Wall Street world,
but I love the relationships that comes from the venture
world because you're still at these early stages, these companies,
these founders still want advice. They actually want to hear
from their investors. They want to hear from their customers.
Unlike you know, when you're a large multinational, you hear
(13:46):
get the quarterly earnings call, maybe they'll take you, and
a maybe they won't, and it's just kind of until
there's an activist investor that steps in that you really
kind of hear anything. But in venture it's you're in
the trenches with them. They want you in the trenches
with them, which I really love. So I guess we
made an assumption that women do want to Why should
women consider venture investing, I guess not even just venture,
(14:11):
but investing as a mode of something they should be
involved in. Yes, So, you know, building a diversified portfolio
of assets and asset classes is important for anybody that's
trying to build wealth and building you know, not just
uh wealth to live on, but like generational wealth. And
when you look at where a lot of these new
(14:33):
millionaires billionaires are coming out of, Yes, there are ones
that are doing you know, the hedge funds and trading
in the public markets, but there are a lot more
that have either built a company, and look at Mark Zuckerberg.
He started Facebook and college has stayed with it throughout
and it's turned it into a multibillion dollar entity that
is going to transcend his lifetime, his children's lifetime. Investors
(14:55):
that went in at like fifty dollars into Facebook were
returned I think several hundred million. So that kind of
return you don't necessarily get in the public markets the
way you'll see when you start something from zero and
watch it exit and stay through to the other side.
So when we think about generational wealth, closing income inequality,
(15:16):
but it's hard because not everybody has the disposable income
to be able to do this. And so I would
also stress that you know, investing is incredibly risky. Most
startups fail, Most investments will not succeed. They will either
go directly to zero or maybe return you the money
that you put in if you're lucky. But most especially
(15:38):
in the venture space, because it's so about high growth
and building companies that you think will be the next
multibillion dollar kind of unicorns, that is a high risk,
high reward proposition. So if you're thinking about being an investor,
there's two paths. Either you go as an individual and
start investing your own personal capital, or you go into
more of an institutional and joint as employ way associate
(16:02):
partner level to invest on behalf of other people's money. Uh,
And getting to those opportunities is really it's it's hard,
and it's really about they won't find you, you have
to go find them. Yeah, I'm I'm really interested in
your take on, um, the opportunities black women and black men,
(16:22):
just black people in general have with regardless to starting companies,
because so often we get pigeonholed into well, you guys
start these types of companies because that's how we think
of these stereotypical types of things. And not saying that
there's anything bad with starting a company that is stereotypically so,
but how do you think about the opportunities that might
(16:43):
be available that we may not consider at large, um,
that we can play those those fields. Well, I mean,
the investing game and private markets and capitalism is about
meeting the needs of unserved or untapped populations. So you know,
I think that black men, women, people in general we
(17:04):
have been underserved in a lot of different market opportunities,
and we are also poised to be the people that
can have solutions to those market inefficiencies. What becomes challenging
is when the people on the other side of the
table have never experienced those It's hard to invest in
something that you literally never experienced or can't wrap your
mind around, or you know, oftentimes there's the story of
(17:27):
you know, a VC will be like I'll ask my
wife if it's a woman sitting in front of him,
and if the wife. You know, I think Jenn Hyman
and Jenny Flies talk about it from rent the runway
at the beginning they talk to investors and like, my
wife would never rent address, but she's not the target demographic, right,
or but you know, it's realizing that sometimes just because
it's not the target for you doesn't mean that it's
(17:48):
not a huge population of people where it is a
real problem. So, you know, I think there's absolutely so
many problems and solutions that black founders can do. The
next problem becomes being funded to be able to do it,
especially if your vision is not to do a mom
and pop where you can maybe try to do bank
loans or do you know small capital. Friends and family
(18:11):
is a big thing. Friends and family around is a
big thing of what launches you know, early entrepreneurs, and
we don't always have And if you look around a
friends and family, you know, I grew up in a
very in a middle class family of professors, but you know,
my parents were not ready to I didn't have the
luxury of our president where you've got a million dollars
like startup to go do it. But it's when you
(18:34):
don't have the friends and family, then how do you
It becomes daunting to think about how you even break through.
And so when you do breakthrough, it's about the access um.
Catherine Finney and Digital Undivided, they've done Project Diane, looking
specifically at black and brown women and what is that point?
Oh six percent is going to black women, and I
(18:55):
mean that, you know her. I think the first report
was like, the real unicorns are black women because it's
just so difficult. And somebody was like, it's statistically insignificant.
But one of the portfolio companies in our somebody said
that too, you know, um, one of our portfolio companies,
and she's like, but I'm a person, I am significant.
I'm there because you know, with every single one that happens,
(19:18):
it's bucking that number up and up. But when you're absolute,
and there's so few getting in there, and there's so
much other capital out there, it can feel overwhelming. So
I think what's happening is more of the founders that
are getting through to the other side are I've seen
are reaching back to others to share how they did it.
There's organizations like for for Women looking at al Rays
(19:40):
is doing some great work trying to get women entrepreneurs
and women investors, more women seated in positions of partner
level roles where you're the check writer. Uh, we are
going to attack it on multiple fronts. At Gingerbread Capital,
we've taken the approach of attacking it at multiple fronts,
specifically looking at women entrepreneurs, so we do direct investments
in whom an entrepreneurs, and then we believe that it's
(20:02):
also important to get capital in the hands of women investors,
and so we're limited partners where LPs and funds that
are backed by majority women gps. So for us, we
think that if we get it at both sides, hopefully
that needle will move because the funding is being diversified
on both ads. Who is best positioned than to take
(20:25):
these seats that you talk about in the firms, because
when you talk, when you think about I'm a black
and black male or female founder and I'm going to
AFRO Tech and I see, oh, there's either walking on
the hall. You probably have two hundred people following you
because you are the one who know you look like
them and you can get what they're trying to build.
(20:45):
And when there's so few Eatas and Richard Kirby's and
my Asia leagues and etcetera, all the attention goes to
a handful of vcs who can only write so many checks,
who can only engage with so many entrepreneurs. So who
out there, black women, black man should be considering or
(21:05):
should be at least taking a second look at venture
roles or intesting and startups that may not be today. Yeah. Well,
I think if becoming an investor is something that it's
important to you, you have to you have to start
now to build a personal brand in the space and
to have a point of view. And so that doesn't
mean necessarily writing checks. But there are especially in New York,
(21:28):
which I love being a VC in New York, I
now get to go to both coasts a lot more.
I appreciate so much the New York market because we
physically sit on top of each other, like we are
across eight miles. We can get from you know, we
can start out in Brooklyn and have a meeting in
Manhattan and go up to Harlem, all in the same night,
all in the same day. That really isn't happening on
(21:50):
the West Coast. And I go and see it. If
you're an SF or you're out on the peninsula, people
are like, oh, that thing is out there, oh now,
And in l A it's the same thing. It's very
neighborhood specific, uh, And I think are just general size
of US and the infrastructure that we can use subways
and move through relatively easy has made the New York
market more advantageous. And I would say it's a great
(22:11):
market for women, and it's a great market for people
of color. Also because there's more than one industry exists
in New York, more than one type of people lives
in New York. And we've seen there's finance, there's fashion,
there's retail. There's lots of different things conferge in this market.
And there's great gender dynamics and diversity in this city.
By the nature of again, we're all being on top
(22:31):
of each other, which means that the likelihood of seeing
more people that look different is increased in a population
where it's so concentrated. Uh and where people live in work.
So you know, from the perspective of breaking in in
New York, there's so many like meet up groups and
text there's so many different organizations that are located not
(22:52):
that far away from each other. And silicote what do
we call it in New York Silicon Alley. Yeah, Like
you can just walk down any blocks and they're all
based in like this twenty block radius. So I would
say the great thing is a lot of vcs talk
on either like Instagram or Twitter. Follow the ones in
the New York market if you're a New York based investor,
(23:13):
follow them and they'll talk about where they're speaking at.
They do a lot of speaking engagements. Go to see
where they're speaking at, go to the things that their
pitch competition judges at. That's where you start seeing and
meeting other people that are in that ecosystem, and you
must build relationships. That is key. No matter what, you
have to put yourself out there. May be uncomfortable, but
you have to put yourself out there to start you know,
(23:34):
forming those connections. So let's take me back to seventeen,
the two year old Eida, Oh, the doctor that is
not in front of you today. But let's say you
are intentionally trying to be what you are today. For
those girls out there who do want to do what
you do and are earlier in their career, what would
(23:54):
you have done intentionally to get to where you are today.
One of the things that I even know is looking
at my college, that's different now there are a lot
more resources happening on campuses of talking about entrepreneurship and
talking about different paths that are not you know, traditionally
it was like, you know, you go to banking, you
go to a major corporate, and you go to consulting,
where the paths out of you know, my undergrad was
(24:17):
kind of it. But now there are people are starting
to do classes in entrepreneurship, their clubs around it, their business,
their pitch competitions that are happening at the undergraduate level.
So first of all, I would say look within your
student body. You know, when you get to college, if
this is something on your mind, like you know, there's clubs,
there's there's people. I think about my business school class.
(24:39):
Warry Parker guys came out of my business school class.
They didn't know each other coming in, but they spent
those two years they built those relationships, they brought what
each of their skill set it, and they launched it
spring semester of second year. And you know, we're ten years.
We're about to have our ten year anniversary. Make take
full advantage. College business school are those like years where
(24:59):
you step side and you get to be you know,
you get to be really thinking about yourself because you're
in that school bubble, especially full time programs. So that's
when I would say, really really use the advantage of
getting to know the other students in your class and
finding out I love I personally love taking and I
wish I had taken more of these before. There's all
these kind of strengths tests. There's um, I I love
(25:22):
the Clifton strength I think in T jr UH and
I love taking those things. I still take them all
the time. And then so find out I like to
build towards my strengths. Find out where you think you're
really strong, and then find the people that build out
(25:43):
around that, because that's where the best teams are. You've
got somebody that's bringing a different thing to the table. Uh,
and then you can move that forward. And then internships
in college is also a great time to be able
to get paid unpaid internships sometimes you can get things
for credit. Use college business school as that time to
take the risk and take the jump out on the
(26:03):
leap and go intern for a company or even maybe
try something you know, entrepreneurial over a summer. You will
you if you can. But I also recognize that you
know you you need money to live, and you need
like college is just unless you know you're lucky you
get a full ride. You have to do all those things.
But where there is the ability to align what you
(26:24):
do and what you're get paid for, it if possible
to help you build just the building blocks. It doesn't
have to be you have that killer idea overnight, giving
yourself experiences where you test. Am I a strength at finance?
Am I more of a strength in computer science, which
is now becoming one of the most popular degrees. I
think if I went back out as a psych major
(26:45):
with a certificate in finance, I might have been a
computer science major with a certificated finance. I actually love
and my psychology degree comes in very handy because all
venture is is relationships. Relationships of how to get the
most out of your founders, relationships of how to form
the connections that get access and get you the foot
(27:06):
in the room to get the one that they'll take
your check versus somebody else. So maybe I would have
been a triple major a double major in a minor,
But I do think that that's uh, that having that
kind of background was good. So what is your typical
experience like being a black woman in venture capital when
(27:26):
you find yourself in rooms that you're the only black
person period, right, and talk to me about what it's
like this day and to day out living this life. Well,
I think it started from you know, my first job, right,
I went into Wall Street. I went into you know,
financing in a trading floor setting where there are very
(27:47):
few women. We had five women traders on the floor
of you know, lots more than that, uh, and there
were very few black people. So I have gotten used
to I don't necessarily notice that anywhere, but you always
notice it when you are the only in the room.
But I choose to see that as an advantage. You know,
I have a very My full name is very gender neutrals.
(28:08):
So people sometimes if they haven't looked me up in advance,
they don't know who's going to be to walk through
the door. I've gotten are you Greek? Are you Japanese?
And then I show up, Oh my god. But use
that as a thing. People don't forget you when you're
the only one. So don't feel I've stopped feeling bad
about it. I choose to see it that people always
remember me. It might not be able to remember my
(28:29):
name because be like there was this woman usually like yeah,
but you can you stand out? So use that to
your advantage because that's when there's a lot of you know,
people that are the hoodie wearing white man or all
those kind of things, a lot less people that look
like us in a room. So use that to your advantage.
And then when you when you get that opportunity, make
(28:51):
it count. Make it count by being prepared in terms
of understanding who's in the room. Be prepared to target
your message to who's in the room. The same pitch
as a founder isn't going to work for everyone. If
you're a woman and you know that you're pitching something
that's a female product, do what you know like Jenn
and Jenny did to get through to the male investors
(29:11):
and say, ask that same wife how many events she
goes to and how many outfits she's bought, and quantify
you've seen the credit card receives and turn it into
a way that resonates for that person, and then you
will see you can then bring them over to the
other side. You're not going to drive a winning argument
by just only using your point of view. It has
(29:32):
to resonate for the person on the other side who
is in the position of power. If it's the money,
their money that you want, um, so use that. Use
the fact that you're unique, Use the fact that you
understand who's in that room and how they think, and
then quickly follow up. If they ask you to follow
up and say, hey, I would love you know, to
take a call, send me some materials. Don't spend a
(29:53):
week and a half making the perfect set of materials,
put together fifteen slides are less, and send it over
quickly so that you keep that momentum going because they're
going to be inundated and they want to have you
freshen their minds. So quick follow up, uh short follow
up and answering the questions that were asked and then
turning it into making it. Um really feel like it's
(30:15):
about building that relationship with that person over a long term.
You're not going to get funded in one conversation. Getting
capital adventure space takes time and it takes relationship buildings.
So don't think it's like it's going to happen in
a week. It might take It might happen, but if
chances are it's months that you're looking at. Black TEG
(30:48):
Green Money is the production of Black and the Affro
Tech Black Effect Podcast Network and Nightheart Media produced My Morgan,
Debon and Blue Lucas, with the production supported by love
Be Ruscell Lewis. Special thank you to Michael Davis and
sakasavan Jan you know like the wine. Yes, that's just
really learn more about my guests and other techis represent
(31:11):
innovators at afro tech dot com. The video version of
this episode is on YouTube right now, so tap in,
enjoy your Black Tech Green Money, leave us a five
star rating on night tunes. Go get your money. Peace
of love,
Host
Will Lucas
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