Ep. 224 Jackie Aina & Denis Asamoah are both life partners and co-Founders of FORVR MOOD, which offers self-care products including candles, fragrances, apparel & accessories..
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
We'll look to see a black tech green money. So
good to be with you guys for another episode. I
got a rock star a couple on this episode, and
I'm super happy about this one. Jackie, I know this
some more are both life partners and co founders of
Forever Mood. Dennis an investment bank here, and also Jackie
is also a beauty creator with millions of followers on
(00:24):
ig TikTok and all over the place. Wherever she goes,
people just follow, They just follow. So good to be
with you guys today.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Likewise, absolutely absolutely so I want to start here with
like finding a market opportunity for Forever Mood, Like, there
are so many things you could have done, why did
you choose to do this?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
So I will I will leave with that and definitely
give Dennis opportunity to weigh into. But this was, honestly,
Forever Mood was my first time really betting on me
for the first time because most of my audience knew
me from makeup and I love makeup. But I think
sometimes especially when it comes to being a woman, when
(01:09):
it comes to be an entrepreneur, when people know you
for one thing, they tend to be very rigid and
firm in that, and there's rarely ever opportunities for you
to pivot or rebrand or try something new. And at
my core, before I ever picked up a makeup brush,
I was a fragrance girl, And so I knew at
some point throughout my career, even well before it took
(01:31):
off and I made this my day job, that I've
always wanted to do something with fragrance, even if it
was just like Passion Project. Now that I have a brand,
I'm like, what the hell does the Passion Project even mean?
They're all it's all work, right, But this was really
something that in my heart of hearts, that I truly
was not only passionate about. But the more I started
(01:54):
to explore fragrance as a consumer and as a customer
and as a content creator, I started to realize what
the holes were. So one of the most obvious things
for me is that black people are like obsessed with
smelling good in general. But it's so weird that we're
rarely ever at the forefront of conversations in terms of
(02:14):
fragrance and campaigns and just even perfumers, like it's still
a largely the fragrance industry is still such a largely
gate kept industry. So I didn't realize how much of
that existed until I actually started creating Fragrance, and I
was like, wow, this is really an issue, Like visibility
is really an issue for a lot of black founders,
black creators, and just black visionaries in the Fragrance space.
(02:35):
I was the first thing. Also, I noticed that like
everything was either really low end or really high end,
and from a price point perspective, there was like nothing
in between, very very few things that were in between.
And the things that were in between were either and
I don't want to offend anybody, but like everything was
either too kitchy or too masculine and too bougie and
(02:57):
too on a table, right, And I'm like, where's the
aspirational brands that may not be like big box accessible,
but are not necessarily three hundred dollars a candle booty expensive, right,
Like we need something that's like right in the middle,
right in that sweet spot. So those were some of
the things that I felt, even as a consumer before
(03:19):
we even started working on the brand, that I noticed
were missing. And so as I started to talk about,
like from an olfactive perspective, what I wanted to see
and smell more of the other pain points that I
were very obviously missing to me and that we wanted
to Dennis and I both strategized on like what we
needed to hone in on and really focus more on
(03:43):
as we started to create Forever Mood.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
There's your chiman liiz.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
No, No, she hit on the NOL. Yeah, that's like
I would say, Look, the vision for prival mood is
Jackie like that. She has the passion for fragrance and
she had a condition called hyperhydrosis which was a sweating
condition as well, so she used to wear fravance to
you know, then cover the scent and the smell and
(04:10):
also give it gave her confidence. So like the vision
as solely to Jackie, So that's for her.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Jackie says something about, you know, people knew you from
makeup and they knew you from this and you know,
but you decided to you know, expand how they knew you.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
And I hear that.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
I hear you know that you have a strong brand
and community. And what I love about building a strong
brand community is as long as you stay authentic, people
will follow you anywhere. And so I wonder how you
think about the community you've built that has accepted forever moved,
and the brand you've built that has allowed people to
(04:47):
trust you to go into this new vertical.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Well, to be quite honest with you, I would have
no confidence in this brand if that community aspect wasn't there.
I mean, that's what I live for personally. It's a
big part of what makes Fragrance so enjoyable. Like the
community aspect is non negotiable in my opinion, because it
(05:12):
not only makes the creation part so fun and innovative
and exciting for me, but it allowed me like, yeah,
like I want to be able to say I knew
I had this vision and I knew the brand was
going to take off, but I had no idea. I
genuinely thought we were going to be starting really small.
(05:32):
And it was truly the people who support me and
both of us really that pulled up and were like, no, no, no,
whatever you put your name on, we're going to be
open to even exploring. And that's an honor and a
privilege that people don't owe you at all, the regardless
of whether you have two followers or ten million, and
(05:52):
so that's not lost on me. So it allows both
of us as co founders to really navigate that level
of trust and that level of integrity very carefully because
it's important and also like it's why, you know, why
wouldn't you want to lean into that community, because that's
what that's what makes the innovative part of being a
(06:14):
brand founder is so important and so fun.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
Just to add to that, I think that that gave
us a brand advantage in a sense because Jackie put
in the work for a decade, and more so naturally,
when we were ready to launch a brand, they already
trusted her. They didn't really need that much convincing. They
didn't really have to, you know what I mean, prove that, Okay,
this is going to be a great product. Jackie actually
(06:38):
uses her product. She's just not going to put her
name on something that she doesn't actually live by and
breathe by. And it was funny because during the time
we launched, it was during the pandemic COVID. It was
in twenty twenty, and people were actually at home and
people couldn't actually go anywhere, and with candles, which is
what we launched to begin with, people couldn't actually smell it.
(06:59):
So people were life heavily on this storytelling, and it
just shows how much impact Jackie had done for the
community because people bought it irrespect of them having to
smell the products. So that is just a testament to
the work that she's done beforehand.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yeah, to Dennis's point, oh, I'm sorry, And another to
Dennis's point, I think without realizing in that over a
decade of time period, I was also laying the groundwork
to show my audience that like every time I opened
a lipstick or an ah, like, I was always interacting
with scent. And but the thing is is, like, you know,
(07:36):
we all love perfume talk now, which really kind of
took off in twenty twenty. I'm not sure if you're
familiar with perfume talk, but it's like fragrance on TikTok
is okay, so you know how there's like nurse talk,
and then there's like like there's different corners of TikTok,
right and so okay, So there's there's there's perfume talk,
But really, perfume content before twenty twenty just did not
(08:00):
perform well at all. So I'd always wanted to open
up that side of myself in my content, but there
was just never like the view The viewership just wasn't there,
and so there were other ways that I was interacting
with scent and fragrance in my videos for all of
that timeframe. So when we started for a movie, people
were like, oh this, oh okay, it actually makes sense.
(08:22):
They're like, wait, this trans jack is always sniffing something
or interacting with something. So the groundborg had been laying
there kind of silently in the background. But once we
just pulled the lid off, people were like, all right,
let's do it. Let's get into it.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Nah, that makes so much sense, you know, And Dennis,
I want to start with you on this, but I
want both of you chime in if you feel so inclined.
Jackie like, there's there's so many people who have large
followings and then put out a product and can't sell anything,
And so I wonder, like, walk us through, why what
(08:58):
about this brand that you've built? And you know, Jackie's
persona that you have allows people to say, you know,
I'm not only interested in her latest release of a
video or latest photo or etc. But also I'm going
to pull out my credit card or I'm going to
tap the pay Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
I think there's multiple layers one being Jackie that if
you remember, Jackie is the first one to tell people
don't buy something. She's not going to throw a product
in your face. So it's just that authenticity where it's like, okay,
I've told you times where when even when it comes
to working with a brand that can jeopardize a relationship,
(09:37):
I'm going to tell you, don't buy this is something
I don't use. This doesn't work for me. So that
authenticity is number one. Number two, our products are don't
we really put in a lot of time in developing
an amazing products. It smells great Jackie. As I said,
Jackie is obviously the lead product product girl in terms
of like any product comes out there, she's tested, she's
(09:59):
lived it, and she loves it, so it's easy for
her to speak to it. And I think when you
see brands that have a creator space, sometimes they stick
their name on it even actually even used it, they
can't really speak to it authentically. So I think that's
also very important. And then three, I think the storytelling.
(10:20):
I think that's very important with a brand, the storytelling
why us, Why should you buy this product? Because there's
so many different products out there, and something that Jackie
was talking about that there were so many luxury products
out there, but it wasn't accessible, It wasn't approachable, And
I think that's something that our brand did in terms
of brand DNA is like, yes, there's other candles, but
(10:41):
our products, the way we spoke to our consumers, and
also when it comes to the black consumers, there wasn't
that many things that were for us in terms that
we wasn't part of the marketing. We wasn't part of
the conversation. So that was something that we wanted to
bring at the forefront with our brand.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
What would you say on that, Jake.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
I feel like Dennis pretty much hit all of what
I would say, and I just want to hone in
on what he said about like necessity, like are you
and you got to also remember my job is to
review products, so I talk about the good, the bad,
and the ugly, and people generally know me for kind
of like not holding back. So and to be honest
(11:22):
with you, I think being a successful founder or successful
at anything is to also have some self awareness. So
before you create something, ask yourself like do people need this?
Does this already exist? Why do people need this? What
is going to be your point of difference. What is
going to be the difference between this same product, because
like nothing is new in the market, right, Like even
(11:45):
especially in beauty and fragrance, nothing is new. But what
would be the reason that people will come to you
versus another heritage brand that has existed for decades before you,
that has the bandwidth to reach more people, to market
their product better, more effective and more frequently, Why would
they come support you? So it really takes like one
a lot of self awareness. Some people don't care about you,
(12:08):
Like some people don't care that you have ten million followers.
They want to know, at the end of the day,
is the product good? And so Dennis and I really
focused on like I almost have to kind of like
remove myself out of it, Like what if somebody had
no idea I existed, they had no idea this was
my brand? Why would they care about that product? And
when they keep buying that product? Those are the kinds
(12:29):
of things that I ask and that we both discuss
as like as a team, when we create something, when
we formulate something, Because I don't want people to just
rely on me. It's not sustainable to just rely on
me and my face and my brand or my voice,
I should say, people need to pull up and genuinely
(12:49):
care about that product, and so far they really are.
And that's something that like I love when someone finds
me and they're like, oh my go, I had no
idea you own Forever mode on my period target demographic
reads like it's actually music from my ears because it's
like you genuinely were enamored with the product. And I
(13:10):
love that just let the products be for itself. And
I think sometimes people get so caught up and like
I can start that because I have access to it,
or like someone can help me. You know, when you're
when you're a creator, you're around a lot of people
who can make the wheels turn and make things happen.
But just because you can it don't mean you should.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
You know, Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I want to talk about, you know, the dynamic here
because what I've found in couples that work together is
like there are usually like defined things you do, define
things I do.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
That way we ain't stepping on each other's stuff. So
it's like you go to work.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Together and then you going home together, And so I wonder, like,
how have you found that works for you? Like how
have you divided the roles and responsibilities. He's responsible for this,
You're responsible for that, so that you can make sure
that it all works.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Then as we start with you on this group, you
need it.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
For me, you need it.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
So for me and Jackie, I think the reason why
it works so well is that we know both know
what our strengths and weaknesses are, and we technically allow
each other to, you know what I mean, flourish within
our role. So Jackie like she's the creative, even though
I think I'm great with creative and I do have
(14:33):
ideas and stuff and I do share and put it
to the table, but naturally I'm always when it comes
down to the final decision when it comes to creating.
If Jackie like believes in this, I'm going to just
lean on her whether I think it's right or wrong.
And that's where that trust and believe comes from, because
I've seen approve it time and time again. Is like,
if someone's done it and they've got a track record,
(14:55):
why try and have a debate or try and find
that unless I really strongly I'm going to fight and
fight my case and I do. Sometimes I'm like, please
trust me, just believe me on this month and it
works out, So that's great. And then and with Jackie,
she's allowed me to you know, I mean operate the business,
to run through the day to day the operation. She
(15:16):
she trusts that, you know, I mean, she doesn't have
to worry about that. And I think that was also
important because look, Jackie's also got another job in her
day to day content creation, and I never want to
admiral Birding or most stressed to her, so I'd taken
a lot of the you know what I mean, the
stuff that we just don't behind the scenes, the boring
stuff and the stuff that I don't want her. So really,
(15:37):
I really want to protect her creativity and her mind
by allowing her to just do what she's great at.
And the reason why also it works is because even
her day to day content, it's organic, it actually works
with what we do. It's not like she has to
over think or have to you know what I mean.
(15:57):
We just do content and content is aligned with her
data today livestock, so it's perfect to her. So it's
what the boy had sex.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Yeah, I'm asked just to you a different way Jackie
is because you know, he just says something that you know,
makes a light bulb go off for me and he's like,
you know, she has another job, and that's content creation.
And I remember I was interviewing Marsha Robinson a couple
of episodes ago, and she was talking about, like, you
got to go to work if you're going to be
trying to grow on social media, treat it like a job.
(16:28):
And I wonder, like, how you think about Like, you know,
there were I'm assuming years where nobody was following, and
the people followed what happened.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
In your strategy and like what happened that? People said, Yo,
y'all see Jackie. I am like she got something going
on over here, Like what happened that is it's already
hitting the inflection point.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
So this is actually probably one of my favorite things
to talk about, because sometimes we get really discouraged as
founders and as entrepreneurs and as content creators because when
you're a creator, essentially you're our business, so you have
to treat it like a business. And I think sometimes
we get so caught up in the phenomenon of like
(17:14):
blowing up immediately right like we're all chasing virality. We're
all like even back when I started, because I started
in two thousand and nine, So even the concept of
doing this as a job didn't really exist the way
that it does now. But that's the advantage that I
had all of the years that I was six love
(17:34):
sixteen years. And I love mentioning my sixteen years because
I'm like, you don't understand, Like you don't understand what
you can do with sixteen years, you don't have to
understand what you can do with five years. And I
love honing in on this idea that like, while you
think it's quiet, you're experimenting, you're making mistakes, Like that's
your advantage, that's how you learn what works and what
doesn't work. I'm telling you something that a lot of
(17:56):
people who blow up too quickly what they don't don't have.
They don't have the hindsight of understanding what their audience
likes or dislikes. When you blow up just because maybe
you struck while the iron is hot, or maybe you
just got really lucky one year, where like the algorithm
was pushing one particular type of content or creator and
you just happen to be there at the right place
at the right time. You don't always have the advantage
(18:19):
of understanding why people follow you, what works what doesn't
when people's attention span dropped off on a certain piece
of content. And so it was five years. It was
half a decade when I actually started consistently getting virality
and content to where it's like, Okay, I think I
(18:40):
actually have something here, and so.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
That it helps you lean into it.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Again, I always go back to you need to be
self aware. So after five years, because I'm a little
bit of a like sometimes it takes me a minute
to catch on to things. After five years, I'm like,
all right, I love creating content, but like people are
not watching and I need to figure out why. And
so what I was realizing is that I was this
is back before like I had an editor, I was
(19:06):
editing my own content. What I was realizing is like
I was creating content and then editing it and putting
it on YouTube and not really engaging or interacting with
Like I would engage with people in comments, I would
respond to comments, but I wouldn't even watch my own content.
So if I'm not even watching my own content, then
I'm like, why would I expect other people don't know
(19:26):
own content? So then I'm asking myself, Okay, why are
you not even joining your own content and I'm looking
at it and I'm like, well, I kind of feel
like it's boring, Like I don't really feel like I'm
being myself. That was the aha moment that I was like, Okay,
I'm in my own head. I still feel like I'm
carrying this weight of is my family watching, are my
(19:47):
friends watching? Are my colleagues watching? And I'm Nigerians, So
you know, Nigerians seem to be very like we hold
our reputations with very high regard. I'll say that you
don't want to be online acting crazy, And so I
was in my own head about really actually showing up
authentically as myself, and I told myself, I think I
(20:08):
need to just look past that, like why not, Like
if nobody's really watching, then okay, if you act a
fool like you normally do offline the stuff that you
edit out of your videos, if you keep that stuff in,
they're already not watching you, So what do you have
to lose? So finally I just woke up and day
and decided I'm just gonna like actually be myself, like
actually be my actual stelf on camera. And literally the
(20:30):
moment that I did that, yeah, it was when I
had my first real piece of viral content, and I
quite literally never looked back all my videos like it
was just like video. They all started hitting and people
were like, oh my god, where you've been this whole time?
And I'm like, all I had to do is be myself.
Speaker 5 (20:50):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm gonna have one more question
on this line, and I have one for Dinnis as
you know all you like, you know, I'm one of
those people who are like, you know, trying to grow
my personal on YouTube, and you're like, you record one day,
then you record the next month, and.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Then you're like, I'm gonna give right to that to it.
I really want to do it.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
But then you got all these things and then you
got the little voice in your head that's like, you know.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
All the things.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
I'm sure you appreciate that, and I'm sure ninety percentage
audience can appreciate all the things that keep you from recording,
not even just recorded, from publishing because you might have
to record it, but you ain't putting that out for
whatever reason. So my question is, there's certain styles I imagine,
and I want you to correct me if I'm wrong.
There are certain styles of videos that tend to work
(21:32):
better now than might have ten years ago, Like the
Casey Knights that like that you know, type of vlog
I imagine had this season.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Maybe it's still does I don't know.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
So my question is, what are you finding are the
styles not necessarily the content and the body of work, Like,
what is the styles that people should pay attention to,
because like the regular day in the life may not
be what people want to watch, may not be.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
So that's what your thoughts on this.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
It's such an interesting question because what is what is
successful now is not necessarily always going to be what
you're passionate about, and that's okay as well. So for example,
these attention spans on TikTok, like everything is just quick, quick,
click punchy. They almost kind of want you to be
(22:26):
way more clickbaity, Like I come from the clickbait era
on YouTube, but you still can create the illusion of
like slow burning the content itself, like you can clickbait
with the thumbnail, but the continent itself does not have
to be fast paced, whereas a lot of these shirt
done platforms, it's like I gotta cut out everything and
that's not necessarily the style that I want to or
(22:48):
even just like the type of storytelling that I'm invested in.
So it's like a fine line of like finding that
balance of like what you know will work, but also
what actually fulfills you and it's true and authentic to you.
And so I think I think that the answers to
that probably looks different for everybody. I don't know if
that's a helpful way to answer that, but I know
for me, what I like may not always necessarily be relevant.
(23:10):
But also that's okay because I've lived through that. And
then by the time it was relevant, like, for example,
talking about black issues in the beauty community was not
always relevant, but I did it anyway because it was
just authentic to me. So then by the time it
sadly I hate to say them as quotes, but when
it became a trend, it shouldn't be a trend, because
like my existence should not be a trend, and me
(23:32):
being visible should not be a trend. But by the
time it became like popping to include black people, I'd
already had years of work to show, Hey, we've been
doing this, and it wasn't just me, it was several
creators that were doing that too, So I don't know
if that's helpful, but you really got to find a
balance because what you actually like creating may not always
(23:54):
be relevant or trendy. But I'll tell you right now,
the quicker everything move so fast, and I'm like, we
got so down guys, like yeah, every day.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
And so if I'm hearing you correctly, because you started
off talking about what are you passionate about? And so
I truly believe, like I want to see more blogs
and so like I remember people used to blog, but
not everything's so one hundred and forty characters, et cetera,
Like you don't get a full thought from anybody anymore.
But there was a day when blogs were the thing,
and I feel like there may be opportunities for people
(24:27):
to do that again with substack and you know, use
a medium and all these things. And so but if
I'm hearing you correctly, you like cut out them, like
what do you care about?
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Do that?
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Yeah, I mean it's still a job. So we have
to be honest enough to understand if you're going to
invest in this, you are going to have to find
a balance of like what is going to get visibility
and what do you like? And that balance looks different
for everybody. But yeah, and even I'm glad that you
mentioned platforms like substack because you're right, like I do
(24:59):
miss the days of like a fully fleshed out thought
or like a deep dive. That's actually why I still
love YouTube. And Dennis can probably chime in as well,
because I know he's a podcast person, like especially when
it comes to brand found ownership and stuff like I
want the meat and potatoes. I want the beginning, the middle,
and end. You don't always get that in TikTok.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Yeah, and this I'm going to te yourself and this too.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
I appreciate that you did that because I was I
wanted to ask Dennis about this is because you guys
have been very transparent about the.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Struggles and growing you know a business.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
You talked about you know you were doing this, you know,
starting during COVID, during the pandemic, and it's in you
know you. I even saw this quote you talked about
you know you made and that's been on this big
warehouse and the goal as planned and how do you
how do you consider growing in public and learning in public.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
It's actually funny because I've been thinking about being more
open and candid with Mike community. I don't really post
someone more behind the scene, but I've been thinking about,
you know, entering the space and doing content around the
mistakes and the challenges that a founder may face, because
(26:13):
every day there's always something going on. One day, something
unexpectedly happened and you have to find a solution for it.
And I feel like people could learn so much because
I feel like in this space, we live in a
world where you only see the end result to finished product.
Oh my god, you sold your business for X amount.
Oh I made X amount of millions? But what does
that mean? And I could learned very early on what
(26:34):
I remember one of my first goals was like, oh yeah,
I can't wait to make millions of the business. And
when you do that, but then you ask yourself, okay,
that's not actually the important question. Okay, what was your profit?
And it's just appreciated and really understanding what it actually means.
And sometimes it can be very misleading to the community
and what the information you're giving and actually it sounds
(26:55):
like you're doing great, but you're not. And it's okay
to be open and candid with your community, say looking
now top times at the moment, it's hard and it
is top time, especially in this economy. So that's something
that I've been thinking about, lady.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Yeah, So this question is for both of you, guys,
Jackie and Dennis. So I have this thing I've been
doing called the E d C the every day Carry,
and so I'm gonna starting with you Dennis, obviously, aside
from forevery moody. What is the thing that you not
just like a morning routine. What the things you carry
every day? I just help you be effective, feel comfortable.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
You know, enjoy your day. So it can be your phone,
it won't be.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Carry that last.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Yeah, like what's in Dinner's every day carry?
Speaker 4 (27:43):
Okay. Well, recently I've got this new ring the Aura
and yeah and ordering, and it's been really impactful learning
and studying my sleep by stress levels, by productivity. So
this is something that I would say now is something
I would carry every day because it really tells me
(28:05):
how productive I am and I can actually act on it,
so like I might be sitting down for too long
and say stand up. That is the small hints and
reminders really make a difference.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Every day care just lady, yes, but now yeah, it's
a good one.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Now if you if you have one, it's a good one.
I got one to.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
Carry.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
So I'm not gonna mention for every mood. But truthfully,
my everyday.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Carry I like you, but I'm gonna be.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
I'm gonna be real. I do even if it's not
forever mood. I do absolutely carry fragrance with me every day,
like I really do, even if I don't set foot.
I mean, I have the advantage of working from home,
and so what like, how can I replicate some sense
of sensuality in my day to day or comfort in
my day to day? Like we as humans, I think
(28:59):
we really underestimate how much. And this is another reason
why for every mood exists, like how much scent makes
a difference and how just and how frequently we interact
with it. It can be comforting, it can be nostalgic,
it can be productive, it can be sin can even
be aggressive. Like I was working out and I wore Nda,
and Nda has tobacco, and I was like, you know what,
(29:21):
maybe I should stick to something a little bit more chilled.
I don't work out with tobacco, Like tobacco is a
little bit when I'm trying to like seduce my man,
And yeah, it's great, but I carry fragrance with me
every day. It's just a reminder of like what I
get to create, what I get to do, how I
want to weigh someone's impression of me when I walk
(29:43):
into a room, if I want to if I want
to disarm a room, or if I want to excite
a room, I carry I do that by conveying a fragrance.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Give me one more me, whether it's like a water
bottle or a backpack or phone.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Oh for sure, Stanley down, I don't ever, this is
probably glued to me more than my phone is my water. Yeah,
I keep that thing on me, for sure.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
I get that Bay, I got a couple more.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
It's like when you are on the business side, like
when you're looking at indicators because you know, obviously there
are people who come to the side put it in
the car and don't and don't purchase in that moment,
because that's like an indicator. What indicators are you paying
attention to that say, you know what we're in the
right direction, whether it's views on social media, whether it's
(30:33):
cards you know, being held on the website, Like, what
are the things that you pay most attention to?
Speaker 4 (30:38):
That's a great question. For me, it's the reviews. It's
the customer reviews. So can you not help me? By
the way, Yeah, you know, we get I get a
weekly digest of reviews coming in customers leave on our website,
and it's really become my self care good or bad,
(31:01):
because it really tells you what's going really well, because like,
for example, I may be like overthinking and thinking, oh,
we need to improve this and do this, and then
when you see customers reactions and the reviews are like wow,
they love it, and it's like, Okay, we're doing something
right and that means a lot. Or whenever you know,
I mean, they say Okay, this could be improved this way,
(31:22):
I'm like, okay, great, okay, let's get back into the
kitchen and improve that. So for me, those are my
indicators and I lean on that because ultimately, these are
the people that are buying the product and using it
every day they are.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
And last one, I'm gonna give it to both of
you guys so much. You both the chiming on this
is I want to talk about ownership, you know, because
Instagram and TikTok, you know, all these they could do
something tomorrow, and this is like, you know, it just disappears,
you know, God forbid, you know, But I wonder how
you think about no matter what happens out there, we're
(31:55):
building something we own. How do you encourage other people
who are trying to grow on social media or YouTube
or any of these other platforms to consider, you know,
the real strategy, which is ownership of both your content,
your intellectual property, your contribution and a theme.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Sorry with you, Jackie.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Actually I really love this question, and I don't necessarily
want to talk about owners because I know, like I'm
hearing two different ways to answer this. It's really controversial
when like founders sell their brands, So I'm not referring
to ownership and that I expect that's a whole different conversation.
(32:39):
But this is probably a big, another big reason why
forever Mood's existence was really important to me, because again,
it was the first time I really got to bet
on myself in the ten years at the time it's
now year sixteen for me, but in the ten years
that I was a creator when we started forever Mood,
(33:00):
I had made millions for brands that I've collaborated with,
brands that I've posted about, brands that I've advertised in
my platform, I made brands millions and that's something I
would never take back, Like, I love the fact that
I built an audience that could trust my recommendations, Like
(33:21):
that's really important to me. However, there's something that can
be said about like, but I want to build something too.
If I'm capable of doing that for them, why not
bet on me and do that for myself. And I'm
going to be very honest with you, I would not
have even had the gall to starfevor Who without Dennis,
because he was the one who actually made it real
(33:43):
and tangible by way of creating the business plan, like
outlining financially what it would require from us. But before
it just seemed like a dream, and it just seemed
like a one day one day. But Dennis really was
the person who sat me down and was like, no,
right now, and here's how. And that's when I was like, Okay,
I'm gonna I'm like, let's just let's just go for it.
(34:04):
Let's just go all in. And so we did. And
I'm so proud because one thing I thought I understood.
I thought like I thought I had some understanding of
what it requires to handle a brandy by working with them,
but I had no idea what it required, and so
I actually started one and even through good bad upstowns bad,
Like all of the above, I would do it all
(34:28):
over again. If it means betting on us, betting on
something that we actually own, something that we create, we
have full control over. That's something I'm incredibly, incredibly proud of.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
There is ownership talk to me.
Speaker 4 (34:44):
Yeah, it's just like Jackie, A bunch of things came
to my mind as you said that, I would speak
on a different angle. I think ownerships and poton, but
I also don't want people to take it lit and
what I mean by that, I think sometimes we can
(35:04):
get accustomed to say it. I want one hundred percent
of everything, and sometimes it's okay to have fifty percent.
It's likely to have ten percent. It all depends on
the opportunity and also understanding how you can find the
right partners to you know what I mean, come together
to do something great. Because I know people that have
(35:25):
ownership of as I said, minority ownership of things, and
they're doing really well and it's worth millions of dollars
versus having one hundre percent or something, and it's not
really worth anything. So I think if we should not
get caught up in this whole thing of I have
to have ownership and I don't want anyone involved and
it is all mine, so I want to be very
mindful of that. So I say that to say that honestly,
(35:47):
it is important, but make sure you understand why you're
doing it or why is why is ownership important to you?
And more importantly, Okay, if you want one hundred percent
of think do you realize what it's going to take
to get to your goal? So let's just say you
want to turn it into one hundred million dollar brand.
Do you think you, by yourself taking on one hundred
(36:10):
percent ownership is capable without bringing the necessary resources and
partners to help you achieve that goal. If you don't
think that it's possible, then you need to bring the
right people and really understand how to value that. And
I think that's where the disconnect is how do you
value ownership and how do you determine it? And there's
no right or wrong answer, but that's something you're going
to learn along the way.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
That's exactly what I was alluding to earlier, because I
know sometimes my people there's a lot of misconceptions of
what it means to like have an investor, and it's
okay to like not really know. There's still so much
I'm going to learn about being a brand founder and
operating all of this as I continue to grow. But
(36:53):
I think there's a lot of misconceptions about like what
does one hundred owning one hundred percent of your business?
What does that look like? What does that all so
allow you to be capable of? And so when I
see founders bring them investors or like sell and they
are criticized for that, I'm like, oh my god, Like
sometimes they get ripped apart, and like, I do think
sometimes there's a lot of valid concerns, like nobody likes
(37:13):
formula changes, right, but then again, nobody likes an inaccessible product,
and so sometimes a formula change is what is going
to make the product accessible. So you gotta you know,
you got to give or take. But I didn't want
to get inside too much. I'm just co signing what
Dennis is referring to, and that I forget.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Yeah, super yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
We've had these kinds of conversations on the episode because
you know, not getting not to get too deep into it,
but there are other episodes like Mayel we talked about
this particular thing, and so I want people to like,
you know, largely the point of business is to build
something that you have an asset. It's an asset that
you can hopefully monetize exactly.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
You can't always do that if you own a hundred
percent of that. It's just it's just the reality. You
can't always do that. You don't have, you don't always
necessarily have. Like if we just care more about being
able to pass down something, that's one thing, but understand
that that might not always generate actual generational wealth. Like
that's just the truth. And I think sometimes there's a
misconception on like what building wealth is going to look like.
Speaker 4 (38:17):
Two facts, and just to expand on that, I would
like to add one thing as well. When you think
about sometimes having to give a percentage of your company
to someone, it's to actually help your business and actually
make it more accessible to your consumers and your customers.
It is actually to help them because you realize that
you know what you love your products. You want to scale,
(38:37):
you want to go into other markets, you want to
expand into other product categories, but you can't do that
on your own, you just don't have the capacity, you
don't have the capital exactly, and this is where you
need the right partners to help you achieve that. And
this is the thing I've learned to not get upset
with people that don't understand it's because they haven't been
through it. And that's just one thing when you and
(38:59):
you haven't gone through some because you have an educated yourself,
it's not really that hope they don't know any You
don't know what you don't know. So hopefully these conversations
will help, you know, bring the conversation to a better
place where we will understand case why is it that
these founders are doing it and why we see in
this cycle. It's not because we're selling out. It's nothing
to do selling out. It's because there is a bigger
(39:19):
reason as to why we're doing it.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Black Tech Green Money is a production of Blavity Afro
Tech on the Black Effect podcast Networking Night Hire Media.
It's produced by Morgan Debonne and me Well Lucas, with
the additional production support by Kate McDonald, Sayah Ergan and
Jaden McGee. Special thank you to Michael Davis in Love Beach.
Learn more about my guessing other tech. This shop is
an innovatives afrotech dot com. The video version of this
(39:42):
episode will drop to Black Tech Green Money on YouTube,
so tap in. Enjoy your Black Tech Green Money, share
us to somebody, Go get your money.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
Peace and love,
We'll look to see a black tech green money. So
good to be with you guys for another episode. I
got a rock star a couple on this episode, and
I'm super happy about this one. Jackie, I know this
some more are both life partners and co founders of
Forever Mood. Dennis an investment bank here, and also Jackie
is also a beauty creator with millions of followers on
(00:24):
ig TikTok and all over the place. Wherever she goes,
people just follow, They just follow. So good to be
with you guys today.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Likewise, absolutely absolutely so I want to start here with
like finding a market opportunity for Forever Mood, Like, there
are so many things you could have done, why did
you choose to do this?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
So I will I will leave with that and definitely
give Dennis opportunity to weigh into. But this was, honestly,
Forever Mood was my first time really betting on me
for the first time because most of my audience knew
me from makeup and I love makeup. But I think
sometimes especially when it comes to being a woman, when
(01:09):
it comes to be an entrepreneur, when people know you
for one thing, they tend to be very rigid and
firm in that, and there's rarely ever opportunities for you
to pivot or rebrand or try something new. And at
my core, before I ever picked up a makeup brush,
I was a fragrance girl, And so I knew at
some point throughout my career, even well before it took
(01:31):
off and I made this my day job, that I've
always wanted to do something with fragrance, even if it
was just like Passion Project. Now that I have a brand,
I'm like, what the hell does the Passion Project even mean?
They're all it's all work, right, But this was really
something that in my heart of hearts, that I truly
was not only passionate about. But the more I started
(01:54):
to explore fragrance as a consumer and as a customer
and as a content creator, I started to realize what
the holes were. So one of the most obvious things
for me is that black people are like obsessed with
smelling good in general. But it's so weird that we're
rarely ever at the forefront of conversations in terms of
(02:14):
fragrance and campaigns and just even perfumers, like it's still
a largely the fragrance industry is still such a largely
gate kept industry. So I didn't realize how much of
that existed until I actually started creating Fragrance, and I
was like, wow, this is really an issue, Like visibility
is really an issue for a lot of black founders,
black creators, and just black visionaries in the Fragrance space.
(02:35):
I was the first thing. Also, I noticed that like
everything was either really low end or really high end,
and from a price point perspective, there was like nothing
in between, very very few things that were in between.
And the things that were in between were either and
I don't want to offend anybody, but like everything was
either too kitchy or too masculine and too bougie and
(02:57):
too on a table, right, And I'm like, where's the
aspirational brands that may not be like big box accessible,
but are not necessarily three hundred dollars a candle booty expensive, right,
Like we need something that's like right in the middle,
right in that sweet spot. So those were some of
the things that I felt, even as a consumer before
(03:19):
we even started working on the brand, that I noticed
were missing. And so as I started to talk about,
like from an olfactive perspective, what I wanted to see
and smell more of the other pain points that I
were very obviously missing to me and that we wanted
to Dennis and I both strategized on like what we
needed to hone in on and really focus more on
(03:43):
as we started to create Forever Mood.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
There's your chiman liiz.
Speaker 4 (03:49):
No, No, she hit on the NOL. Yeah, that's like
I would say, Look, the vision for prival mood is
Jackie like that. She has the passion for fragrance and
she had a condition called hyperhydrosis which was a sweating
condition as well, so she used to wear fravance to
you know, then cover the scent and the smell and
(04:10):
also give it gave her confidence. So like the vision
as solely to Jackie, So that's for her.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Jackie says something about, you know, people knew you from
makeup and they knew you from this and you know,
but you decided to you know, expand how they knew you.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
And I hear that.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
I hear you know that you have a strong brand
and community. And what I love about building a strong
brand community is as long as you stay authentic, people
will follow you anywhere. And so I wonder how you
think about the community you've built that has accepted forever moved,
and the brand you've built that has allowed people to
(04:47):
trust you to go into this new vertical.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Well, to be quite honest with you, I would have
no confidence in this brand if that community aspect wasn't there.
I mean, that's what I live for personally. It's a
big part of what makes Fragrance so enjoyable. Like the
community aspect is non negotiable in my opinion, because it
(05:12):
not only makes the creation part so fun and innovative
and exciting for me, but it allowed me like, yeah,
like I want to be able to say I knew
I had this vision and I knew the brand was
going to take off, but I had no idea. I
genuinely thought we were going to be starting really small.
(05:32):
And it was truly the people who support me and
both of us really that pulled up and were like, no, no, no,
whatever you put your name on, we're going to be
open to even exploring. And that's an honor and a
privilege that people don't owe you at all, the regardless
of whether you have two followers or ten million, and
(05:52):
so that's not lost on me. So it allows both
of us as co founders to really navigate that level
of trust and that level of integrity very carefully because
it's important and also like it's why, you know, why
wouldn't you want to lean into that community, because that's
what that's what makes the innovative part of being a
(06:14):
brand founder is so important and so fun.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
Just to add to that, I think that that gave
us a brand advantage in a sense because Jackie put
in the work for a decade, and more so naturally,
when we were ready to launch a brand, they already
trusted her. They didn't really need that much convincing. They
didn't really have to, you know what I mean, prove that, Okay,
this is going to be a great product. Jackie actually
(06:38):
uses her product. She's just not going to put her
name on something that she doesn't actually live by and
breathe by. And it was funny because during the time
we launched, it was during the pandemic COVID. It was
in twenty twenty, and people were actually at home and
people couldn't actually go anywhere, and with candles, which is
what we launched to begin with, people couldn't actually smell it.
(06:59):
So people were life heavily on this storytelling, and it
just shows how much impact Jackie had done for the
community because people bought it irrespect of them having to
smell the products. So that is just a testament to
the work that she's done beforehand.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yeah, to Dennis's point, oh, I'm sorry, And another to
Dennis's point, I think without realizing in that over a
decade of time period, I was also laying the groundwork
to show my audience that like every time I opened
a lipstick or an ah, like, I was always interacting
with scent. And but the thing is is, like, you know,
(07:36):
we all love perfume talk now, which really kind of
took off in twenty twenty. I'm not sure if you're
familiar with perfume talk, but it's like fragrance on TikTok
is okay, so you know how there's like nurse talk,
and then there's like like there's different corners of TikTok,
right and so okay, So there's there's there's perfume talk,
But really, perfume content before twenty twenty just did not
(08:00):
perform well at all. So I'd always wanted to open
up that side of myself in my content, but there
was just never like the view The viewership just wasn't there,
and so there were other ways that I was interacting
with scent and fragrance in my videos for all of
that timeframe. So when we started for a movie, people
were like, oh this, oh okay, it actually makes sense.
(08:22):
They're like, wait, this trans jack is always sniffing something
or interacting with something. So the groundborg had been laying
there kind of silently in the background. But once we
just pulled the lid off, people were like, all right,
let's do it. Let's get into it.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Nah, that makes so much sense, you know, And Dennis,
I want to start with you on this, but I
want both of you chime in if you feel so inclined.
Jackie like, there's there's so many people who have large
followings and then put out a product and can't sell anything,
And so I wonder, like, walk us through, why what
(08:58):
about this brand that you've built? And you know, Jackie's
persona that you have allows people to say, you know,
I'm not only interested in her latest release of a
video or latest photo or etc. But also I'm going
to pull out my credit card or I'm going to
tap the pay Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
I think there's multiple layers one being Jackie that if
you remember, Jackie is the first one to tell people
don't buy something. She's not going to throw a product
in your face. So it's just that authenticity where it's like, okay,
I've told you times where when even when it comes
to working with a brand that can jeopardize a relationship,
(09:37):
I'm going to tell you, don't buy this is something
I don't use. This doesn't work for me. So that
authenticity is number one. Number two, our products are don't
we really put in a lot of time in developing
an amazing products. It smells great Jackie. As I said,
Jackie is obviously the lead product product girl in terms
of like any product comes out there, she's tested, she's
(09:59):
lived it, and she loves it, so it's easy for
her to speak to it. And I think when you
see brands that have a creator space, sometimes they stick
their name on it even actually even used it, they
can't really speak to it authentically. So I think that's
also very important. And then three, I think the storytelling.
(10:20):
I think that's very important with a brand, the storytelling
why us, Why should you buy this product? Because there's
so many different products out there, and something that Jackie
was talking about that there were so many luxury products
out there, but it wasn't accessible, It wasn't approachable, And
I think that's something that our brand did in terms
of brand DNA is like, yes, there's other candles, but
(10:41):
our products, the way we spoke to our consumers, and
also when it comes to the black consumers, there wasn't
that many things that were for us in terms that
we wasn't part of the marketing. We wasn't part of
the conversation. So that was something that we wanted to
bring at the forefront with our brand.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
What would you say on that, Jake.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
I feel like Dennis pretty much hit all of what
I would say, and I just want to hone in
on what he said about like necessity, like are you
and you got to also remember my job is to
review products, so I talk about the good, the bad,
and the ugly, and people generally know me for kind
of like not holding back. So and to be honest
(11:22):
with you, I think being a successful founder or successful
at anything is to also have some self awareness. So
before you create something, ask yourself like do people need this?
Does this already exist? Why do people need this? What
is going to be your point of difference. What is
going to be the difference between this same product, because
like nothing is new in the market, right, Like even
(11:45):
especially in beauty and fragrance, nothing is new. But what
would be the reason that people will come to you
versus another heritage brand that has existed for decades before you,
that has the bandwidth to reach more people, to market
their product better, more effective and more frequently, Why would
they come support you? So it really takes like one
a lot of self awareness. Some people don't care about you,
(12:08):
Like some people don't care that you have ten million followers.
They want to know, at the end of the day,
is the product good? And so Dennis and I really
focused on like I almost have to kind of like
remove myself out of it, Like what if somebody had
no idea I existed, they had no idea this was
my brand? Why would they care about that product? And
when they keep buying that product? Those are the kinds
(12:29):
of things that I ask and that we both discuss
as like as a team, when we create something, when
we formulate something, Because I don't want people to just
rely on me. It's not sustainable to just rely on
me and my face and my brand or my voice,
I should say, people need to pull up and genuinely
(12:49):
care about that product, and so far they really are.
And that's something that like I love when someone finds
me and they're like, oh my go, I had no
idea you own Forever mode on my period target demographic
reads like it's actually music from my ears because it's
like you genuinely were enamored with the product. And I
(13:10):
love that just let the products be for itself. And
I think sometimes people get so caught up and like
I can start that because I have access to it,
or like someone can help me. You know, when you're
when you're a creator, you're around a lot of people
who can make the wheels turn and make things happen.
But just because you can it don't mean you should.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
You know, Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I want to talk about, you know, the dynamic here
because what I've found in couples that work together is
like there are usually like defined things you do, define
things I do.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
That way we ain't stepping on each other's stuff. So
it's like you go to work.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Together and then you going home together, And so I wonder, like,
how have you found that works for you? Like how
have you divided the roles and responsibilities. He's responsible for this,
You're responsible for that, so that you can make sure
that it all works.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Then as we start with you on this group, you
need it.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
For me, you need it.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
So for me and Jackie, I think the reason why
it works so well is that we know both know
what our strengths and weaknesses are, and we technically allow
each other to, you know what I mean, flourish within
our role. So Jackie like she's the creative, even though
I think I'm great with creative and I do have
(14:33):
ideas and stuff and I do share and put it
to the table, but naturally I'm always when it comes
down to the final decision when it comes to creating.
If Jackie like believes in this, I'm going to just
lean on her whether I think it's right or wrong.
And that's where that trust and believe comes from, because
I've seen approve it time and time again. Is like,
if someone's done it and they've got a track record,
(14:55):
why try and have a debate or try and find
that unless I really strongly I'm going to fight and
fight my case and I do. Sometimes I'm like, please
trust me, just believe me on this month and it
works out, So that's great. And then and with Jackie,
she's allowed me to you know, I mean operate the business,
to run through the day to day the operation. She
(15:16):
she trusts that, you know, I mean, she doesn't have
to worry about that. And I think that was also
important because look, Jackie's also got another job in her
day to day content creation, and I never want to
admiral Birding or most stressed to her, so I'd taken
a lot of the you know what I mean, the
stuff that we just don't behind the scenes, the boring
stuff and the stuff that I don't want her. So really,
(15:37):
I really want to protect her creativity and her mind
by allowing her to just do what she's great at.
And the reason why also it works is because even
her day to day content, it's organic, it actually works
with what we do. It's not like she has to
over think or have to you know what I mean.
(15:57):
We just do content and content is aligned with her
data today livestock, so it's perfect to her. So it's
what the boy had sex.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Yeah, I'm asked just to you a different way Jackie
is because you know, he just says something that you know,
makes a light bulb go off for me and he's like,
you know, she has another job, and that's content creation.
And I remember I was interviewing Marsha Robinson a couple
of episodes ago, and she was talking about, like, you
got to go to work if you're going to be
trying to grow on social media, treat it like a job.
(16:28):
And I wonder, like, how you think about Like, you know,
there were I'm assuming years where nobody was following, and
the people followed what happened.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
In your strategy and like what happened that? People said, Yo,
y'all see Jackie. I am like she got something going
on over here, Like what happened that is it's already
hitting the inflection point.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
So this is actually probably one of my favorite things
to talk about, because sometimes we get really discouraged as
founders and as entrepreneurs and as content creators because when
you're a creator, essentially you're our business, so you have
to treat it like a business. And I think sometimes
we get so caught up in the phenomenon of like
(17:14):
blowing up immediately right like we're all chasing virality. We're
all like even back when I started, because I started
in two thousand and nine, So even the concept of
doing this as a job didn't really exist the way
that it does now. But that's the advantage that I
had all of the years that I was six love
(17:34):
sixteen years. And I love mentioning my sixteen years because
I'm like, you don't understand, Like you don't understand what
you can do with sixteen years, you don't have to
understand what you can do with five years. And I
love honing in on this idea that like, while you
think it's quiet, you're experimenting, you're making mistakes, Like that's
your advantage, that's how you learn what works and what
doesn't work. I'm telling you something that a lot of
(17:56):
people who blow up too quickly what they don't don't have.
They don't have the hindsight of understanding what their audience
likes or dislikes. When you blow up just because maybe
you struck while the iron is hot, or maybe you
just got really lucky one year, where like the algorithm
was pushing one particular type of content or creator and
you just happen to be there at the right place
at the right time. You don't always have the advantage
(18:19):
of understanding why people follow you, what works what doesn't
when people's attention span dropped off on a certain piece
of content. And so it was five years. It was
half a decade when I actually started consistently getting virality
and content to where it's like, Okay, I think I
(18:40):
actually have something here, and so.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
That it helps you lean into it.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Again, I always go back to you need to be
self aware. So after five years, because I'm a little
bit of a like sometimes it takes me a minute
to catch on to things. After five years, I'm like,
all right, I love creating content, but like people are
not watching and I need to figure out why. And
so what I was realizing is that I was this
is back before like I had an editor, I was
(19:06):
editing my own content. What I was realizing is like
I was creating content and then editing it and putting
it on YouTube and not really engaging or interacting with
Like I would engage with people in comments, I would
respond to comments, but I wouldn't even watch my own content.
So if I'm not even watching my own content, then
I'm like, why would I expect other people don't know
(19:26):
own content? So then I'm asking myself, Okay, why are
you not even joining your own content and I'm looking
at it and I'm like, well, I kind of feel
like it's boring, Like I don't really feel like I'm
being myself. That was the aha moment that I was like, Okay,
I'm in my own head. I still feel like I'm
carrying this weight of is my family watching, are my
(19:47):
friends watching? Are my colleagues watching? And I'm Nigerians, So
you know, Nigerians seem to be very like we hold
our reputations with very high regard. I'll say that you
don't want to be online acting crazy, And so I
was in my own head about really actually showing up
authentically as myself, and I told myself, I think I
(20:08):
need to just look past that, like why not, Like
if nobody's really watching, then okay, if you act a
fool like you normally do offline the stuff that you
edit out of your videos, if you keep that stuff in,
they're already not watching you, So what do you have
to lose? So finally I just woke up and day
and decided I'm just gonna like actually be myself, like
actually be my actual stelf on camera. And literally the
(20:30):
moment that I did that, yeah, it was when I
had my first real piece of viral content, and I
quite literally never looked back all my videos like it
was just like video. They all started hitting and people
were like, oh my god, where you've been this whole time?
And I'm like, all I had to do is be myself.
Speaker 5 (20:50):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm gonna have one more question
on this line, and I have one for Dinnis as
you know all you like, you know, I'm one of
those people who are like, you know, trying to grow
my personal on YouTube, and you're like, you record one day,
then you record the next month, and.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Then you're like, I'm gonna give right to that to it.
I really want to do it.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
But then you got all these things and then you
got the little voice in your head that's like, you know.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
All the things.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
I'm sure you appreciate that, and I'm sure ninety percentage
audience can appreciate all the things that keep you from recording,
not even just recorded, from publishing because you might have
to record it, but you ain't putting that out for
whatever reason. So my question is, there's certain styles I imagine,
and I want you to correct me if I'm wrong.
There are certain styles of videos that tend to work
(21:32):
better now than might have ten years ago, Like the
Casey Knights that like that you know, type of vlog
I imagine had this season.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Maybe it's still does I don't know.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
So my question is, what are you finding are the
styles not necessarily the content and the body of work, Like,
what is the styles that people should pay attention to,
because like the regular day in the life may not
be what people want to watch, may not be.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
So that's what your thoughts on this.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
It's such an interesting question because what is what is
successful now is not necessarily always going to be what
you're passionate about, and that's okay as well. So for example,
these attention spans on TikTok, like everything is just quick, quick,
click punchy. They almost kind of want you to be
(22:26):
way more clickbaity, Like I come from the clickbait era
on YouTube, but you still can create the illusion of
like slow burning the content itself, like you can clickbait
with the thumbnail, but the continent itself does not have
to be fast paced, whereas a lot of these shirt
done platforms, it's like I gotta cut out everything and
that's not necessarily the style that I want to or
(22:48):
even just like the type of storytelling that I'm invested in.
So it's like a fine line of like finding that
balance of like what you know will work, but also
what actually fulfills you and it's true and authentic to you.
And so I think I think that the answers to
that probably looks different for everybody. I don't know if
that's a helpful way to answer that, but I know
for me, what I like may not always necessarily be relevant.
(23:10):
But also that's okay because I've lived through that. And
then by the time it was relevant, like, for example,
talking about black issues in the beauty community was not
always relevant, but I did it anyway because it was
just authentic to me. So then by the time it
sadly I hate to say them as quotes, but when
it became a trend, it shouldn't be a trend, because
like my existence should not be a trend, and me
(23:32):
being visible should not be a trend. But by the
time it became like popping to include black people, I'd
already had years of work to show, Hey, we've been
doing this, and it wasn't just me, it was several
creators that were doing that too, So I don't know
if that's helpful, but you really got to find a
balance because what you actually like creating may not always
(23:54):
be relevant or trendy. But I'll tell you right now,
the quicker everything move so fast, and I'm like, we
got so down guys, like yeah, every day.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
And so if I'm hearing you correctly, because you started
off talking about what are you passionate about? And so
I truly believe, like I want to see more blogs
and so like I remember people used to blog, but
not everything's so one hundred and forty characters, et cetera,
Like you don't get a full thought from anybody anymore.
But there was a day when blogs were the thing,
and I feel like there may be opportunities for people
(24:27):
to do that again with substack and you know, use
a medium and all these things. And so but if
I'm hearing you correctly, you like cut out them, like
what do you care about?
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Do that?
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Yeah, I mean it's still a job. So we have
to be honest enough to understand if you're going to
invest in this, you are going to have to find
a balance of like what is going to get visibility
and what do you like? And that balance looks different
for everybody. But yeah, and even I'm glad that you
mentioned platforms like substack because you're right, like I do
(24:59):
miss the days of like a fully fleshed out thought
or like a deep dive. That's actually why I still
love YouTube. And Dennis can probably chime in as well,
because I know he's a podcast person, like especially when
it comes to brand found ownership and stuff like I
want the meat and potatoes. I want the beginning, the middle,
and end. You don't always get that in TikTok.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Yeah, and this I'm going to te yourself and this too.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
I appreciate that you did that because I was I
wanted to ask Dennis about this is because you guys
have been very transparent about the.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Struggles and growing you know a business.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
You talked about you know you were doing this, you know,
starting during COVID, during the pandemic, and it's in you
know you. I even saw this quote you talked about
you know you made and that's been on this big
warehouse and the goal as planned and how do you
how do you consider growing in public and learning in public.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
It's actually funny because I've been thinking about being more
open and candid with Mike community. I don't really post
someone more behind the scene, but I've been thinking about,
you know, entering the space and doing content around the
mistakes and the challenges that a founder may face, because
(26:13):
every day there's always something going on. One day, something
unexpectedly happened and you have to find a solution for it.
And I feel like people could learn so much because
I feel like in this space, we live in a
world where you only see the end result to finished product.
Oh my god, you sold your business for X amount.
Oh I made X amount of millions? But what does
that mean? And I could learned very early on what
(26:34):
I remember one of my first goals was like, oh yeah,
I can't wait to make millions of the business. And
when you do that, but then you ask yourself, okay,
that's not actually the important question. Okay, what was your profit?
And it's just appreciated and really understanding what it actually means.
And sometimes it can be very misleading to the community
and what the information you're giving and actually it sounds
(26:55):
like you're doing great, but you're not. And it's okay
to be open and candid with your community, say looking
now top times at the moment, it's hard and it
is top time, especially in this economy. So that's something
that I've been thinking about, lady.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Yeah, So this question is for both of you, guys,
Jackie and Dennis. So I have this thing I've been
doing called the E d C the every day Carry,
and so I'm gonna starting with you Dennis, obviously, aside
from forevery moody. What is the thing that you not
just like a morning routine. What the things you carry
every day? I just help you be effective, feel comfortable.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
You know, enjoy your day. So it can be your phone,
it won't be.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Carry that last.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Yeah, like what's in Dinner's every day carry?
Speaker 4 (27:43):
Okay. Well, recently I've got this new ring the Aura
and yeah and ordering, and it's been really impactful learning
and studying my sleep by stress levels, by productivity. So
this is something that I would say now is something
I would carry every day because it really tells me
(28:05):
how productive I am and I can actually act on it,
so like I might be sitting down for too long
and say stand up. That is the small hints and
reminders really make a difference.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Every day care just lady, yes, but now yeah, it's
a good one.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Now if you if you have one, it's a good one.
I got one to.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
Carry.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
So I'm not gonna mention for every mood. But truthfully,
my everyday.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Carry I like you, but I'm gonna be.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
I'm gonna be real. I do even if it's not
forever mood. I do absolutely carry fragrance with me every day,
like I really do, even if I don't set foot.
I mean, I have the advantage of working from home,
and so what like, how can I replicate some sense
of sensuality in my day to day or comfort in
my day to day? Like we as humans, I think
(28:59):
we really underestimate how much. And this is another reason
why for every mood exists, like how much scent makes
a difference and how just and how frequently we interact
with it. It can be comforting, it can be nostalgic,
it can be productive, it can be sin can even
be aggressive. Like I was working out and I wore Nda,
and Nda has tobacco, and I was like, you know what,
(29:21):
maybe I should stick to something a little bit more chilled.
I don't work out with tobacco, Like tobacco is a
little bit when I'm trying to like seduce my man,
And yeah, it's great, but I carry fragrance with me
every day. It's just a reminder of like what I
get to create, what I get to do, how I
want to weigh someone's impression of me when I walk
(29:43):
into a room, if I want to if I want
to disarm a room, or if I want to excite
a room, I carry I do that by conveying a fragrance.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Give me one more me, whether it's like a water
bottle or a backpack or phone.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Oh for sure, Stanley down, I don't ever, this is
probably glued to me more than my phone is my water. Yeah,
I keep that thing on me, for sure.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
I get that Bay, I got a couple more.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
It's like when you are on the business side, like
when you're looking at indicators because you know, obviously there
are people who come to the side put it in
the car and don't and don't purchase in that moment,
because that's like an indicator. What indicators are you paying
attention to that say, you know what we're in the
right direction, whether it's views on social media, whether it's
(30:33):
cards you know, being held on the website, Like, what
are the things that you pay most attention to?
Speaker 4 (30:38):
That's a great question. For me, it's the reviews. It's
the customer reviews. So can you not help me? By
the way, Yeah, you know, we get I get a
weekly digest of reviews coming in customers leave on our website,
and it's really become my self care good or bad,
(31:01):
because it really tells you what's going really well, because like,
for example, I may be like overthinking and thinking, oh,
we need to improve this and do this, and then
when you see customers reactions and the reviews are like wow,
they love it, and it's like, Okay, we're doing something
right and that means a lot. Or whenever you know,
I mean, they say Okay, this could be improved this way,
(31:22):
I'm like, okay, great, okay, let's get back into the
kitchen and improve that. So for me, those are my
indicators and I lean on that because ultimately, these are
the people that are buying the product and using it
every day they are.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
And last one, I'm gonna give it to both of
you guys so much. You both the chiming on this
is I want to talk about ownership, you know, because
Instagram and TikTok, you know, all these they could do
something tomorrow, and this is like, you know, it just disappears,
you know, God forbid, you know, But I wonder how
you think about no matter what happens out there, we're
(31:55):
building something we own. How do you encourage other people
who are trying to grow on social media or YouTube
or any of these other platforms to consider, you know,
the real strategy, which is ownership of both your content,
your intellectual property, your contribution and a theme.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Sorry with you, Jackie.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Actually I really love this question, and I don't necessarily
want to talk about owners because I know, like I'm
hearing two different ways to answer this. It's really controversial
when like founders sell their brands, So I'm not referring
to ownership and that I expect that's a whole different conversation.
(32:39):
But this is probably a big, another big reason why
forever Mood's existence was really important to me, because again,
it was the first time I really got to bet
on myself in the ten years at the time it's
now year sixteen for me, but in the ten years
that I was a creator when we started forever Mood,
(33:00):
I had made millions for brands that I've collaborated with,
brands that I've posted about, brands that I've advertised in
my platform, I made brands millions and that's something I
would never take back, Like, I love the fact that
I built an audience that could trust my recommendations, Like
(33:21):
that's really important to me. However, there's something that can
be said about like, but I want to build something too.
If I'm capable of doing that for them, why not
bet on me and do that for myself. And I'm
going to be very honest with you, I would not
have even had the gall to starfevor Who without Dennis,
because he was the one who actually made it real
(33:43):
and tangible by way of creating the business plan, like
outlining financially what it would require from us. But before
it just seemed like a dream, and it just seemed
like a one day one day. But Dennis really was
the person who sat me down and was like, no,
right now, and here's how. And that's when I was like, Okay,
I'm gonna I'm like, let's just let's just go for it.
(34:04):
Let's just go all in. And so we did. And
I'm so proud because one thing I thought I understood.
I thought like I thought I had some understanding of
what it requires to handle a brandy by working with them,
but I had no idea what it required, and so
I actually started one and even through good bad upstowns bad,
Like all of the above, I would do it all
(34:28):
over again. If it means betting on us, betting on
something that we actually own, something that we create, we
have full control over. That's something I'm incredibly, incredibly proud of.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
There is ownership talk to me.
Speaker 4 (34:44):
Yeah, it's just like Jackie, A bunch of things came
to my mind as you said that, I would speak
on a different angle. I think ownerships and poton, but
I also don't want people to take it lit and
what I mean by that, I think sometimes we can
(35:04):
get accustomed to say it. I want one hundred percent
of everything, and sometimes it's okay to have fifty percent.
It's likely to have ten percent. It all depends on
the opportunity and also understanding how you can find the
right partners to you know what I mean, come together
to do something great. Because I know people that have
(35:25):
ownership of as I said, minority ownership of things, and
they're doing really well and it's worth millions of dollars
versus having one hundre percent or something, and it's not
really worth anything. So I think if we should not
get caught up in this whole thing of I have
to have ownership and I don't want anyone involved and
it is all mine, so I want to be very
mindful of that. So I say that to say that honestly,
(35:47):
it is important, but make sure you understand why you're
doing it or why is why is ownership important to you?
And more importantly, Okay, if you want one hundred percent
of think do you realize what it's going to take
to get to your goal? So let's just say you
want to turn it into one hundred million dollar brand.
Do you think you, by yourself taking on one hundred
(36:10):
percent ownership is capable without bringing the necessary resources and
partners to help you achieve that goal. If you don't
think that it's possible, then you need to bring the
right people and really understand how to value that. And
I think that's where the disconnect is how do you
value ownership and how do you determine it? And there's
no right or wrong answer, but that's something you're going
to learn along the way.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
That's exactly what I was alluding to earlier, because I
know sometimes my people there's a lot of misconceptions of
what it means to like have an investor, and it's
okay to like not really know. There's still so much
I'm going to learn about being a brand founder and
operating all of this as I continue to grow. But
(36:53):
I think there's a lot of misconceptions about like what
does one hundred owning one hundred percent of your business?
What does that look like? What does that all so
allow you to be capable of? And so when I
see founders bring them investors or like sell and they
are criticized for that, I'm like, oh my god, Like
sometimes they get ripped apart, and like, I do think
sometimes there's a lot of valid concerns, like nobody likes
(37:13):
formula changes, right, but then again, nobody likes an inaccessible product,
and so sometimes a formula change is what is going
to make the product accessible. So you gotta you know,
you got to give or take. But I didn't want
to get inside too much. I'm just co signing what
Dennis is referring to, and that I forget.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Yeah, super yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
We've had these kinds of conversations on the episode because
you know, not getting not to get too deep into it,
but there are other episodes like Mayel we talked about
this particular thing, and so I want people to like,
you know, largely the point of business is to build
something that you have an asset. It's an asset that
you can hopefully monetize exactly.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
You can't always do that if you own a hundred
percent of that. It's just it's just the reality. You
can't always do that. You don't have, you don't always
necessarily have. Like if we just care more about being
able to pass down something, that's one thing, but understand
that that might not always generate actual generational wealth. Like
that's just the truth. And I think sometimes there's a
misconception on like what building wealth is going to look like.
Speaker 4 (38:17):
Two facts, and just to expand on that, I would
like to add one thing as well. When you think
about sometimes having to give a percentage of your company
to someone, it's to actually help your business and actually
make it more accessible to your consumers and your customers.
It is actually to help them because you realize that
you know what you love your products. You want to scale,
(38:37):
you want to go into other markets, you want to
expand into other product categories, but you can't do that
on your own, you just don't have the capacity, you
don't have the capital exactly, and this is where you
need the right partners to help you achieve that. And
this is the thing I've learned to not get upset
with people that don't understand it's because they haven't been
through it. And that's just one thing when you and
(38:59):
you haven't gone through some because you have an educated yourself,
it's not really that hope they don't know any You
don't know what you don't know. So hopefully these conversations
will help, you know, bring the conversation to a better
place where we will understand case why is it that
these founders are doing it and why we see in
this cycle. It's not because we're selling out. It's nothing
to do selling out. It's because there is a bigger
(39:19):
reason as to why we're doing it.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Black Tech Green Money is a production of Blavity Afro
Tech on the Black Effect podcast Networking Night Hire Media.
It's produced by Morgan Debonne and me Well Lucas, with
the additional production support by Kate McDonald, Sayah Ergan and
Jaden McGee. Special thank you to Michael Davis in Love Beach.
Learn more about my guessing other tech. This shop is
an innovatives afrotech dot com. The video version of this
(39:42):
episode will drop to Black Tech Green Money on YouTube,
so tap in. Enjoy your Black Tech Green Money, share
us to somebody, Go get your money.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
Peace and love,
Host
Will Lucas
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