March 19, 2024 • 41 mins
Ep. 157 Jarvis Sam is the Founder and CEO at The Rainbow Disruption where the mission is to partner with organizations to develop practical solutions that champion DEI in the workplace and enable systemic progress where authenticity, empathy, growth mindset, and transparency are celebrated. Previously, he was Chief Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion officer at Nike.
On this episode, Jarvis speaks with AfroTech's Will Lucas about how to know when we've been successful at DEI efforts, how to build credibility as a DEI officer, and why you may not want a 'seat at the table'.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Check me out at the annual Black Effect Podcast Festival,
happening Saturday, April twenty seventh in Atlanta. Live podcasts are
on deck from some of your favorite shows, including this one,
Black Tech, Green Money, and also some of the best
podcasts in the game like Deeply Well with Debbie Brown
and Carefully Reckless. Atlanta is one of my favorite cities
in the world. I've lived there for two years. Actually,
in my worldview, seeing us successful in every industry and
(00:23):
not having any limits on our potential largely was shaped
by Atlanta. So to be there with you doing this
podcast talking about how we build or leverage technology to
bill wealth. Come on, man, doesn't get better. I want
to see you there. Get your tickets today at Black
Effect dot comback's last podcast festival. I'm Will Lucas and
this is Black Tech, Green Money. Jarvis SAMs, founder and
(00:43):
CEO at The Rainbow Disruption with the mission is to
partner with organizations to develop practical solutions that champion DEI
in the workplace and enables systemic progress where authenticity, empathy, growth,
mindset and transparency are celebrated. Previously, he was Chief Diversity,
Equity and Inclusion Officer at Nike. A large effort in
(01:04):
DEI is to create equitable opportunities in spaces where people
from various backgrounds can have a voice.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
These are achievable goals.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
So if we're successful in do DEI, executives ultimately work
themselves out of jobs.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
I think that the work equity and inclusion is actually
never done, as we see as time goes on in
different horizons change, different groups ultimately end up being at
the center of experiences of marginalization.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Unfortunately, the raw reality of our work.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Is that because so many different factors social, political, environmental,
economic tie into the way that we do our work,
there's always going to be a need for organizations to
understand how do we create equitable approaches and equitable outcomes
that serve people and teams. I think the product inclusion
space is critical here will if you take a look
(01:54):
at what new product development looks like within organizations. Every
time a company drives in to stand up a new product,
we have to consider it through the lens of ensuring
that it's accessible to all people. I'llbe at disability status,
language barriers, or otherwise. And so with some of those
different constraints in mind, the work of equity practitioners to
(02:15):
ensure great outcomes for all will forever be something that
we have to continue doing.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
And to that point, you know, I've heard you talk
about before, specifically the around the time of George Floyd
and coming out of the pandemic, there was so much
focus on making sure.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Black people got equity in the workplace.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
And then there was this big uprising in you know,
Pacific Islander and Asians talking about they needed, you.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Know, equity.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
So how do corporations manage effectively so many people you know,
chomping at their heels saying, hey, you got to pay
attention to us too when it when it changes so frequently.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Yeah, you know, for starters, organizations have got to not
look at this as a zero of some game. Unfortunately,
so many organizations have positioned the nature of this work
through in us versus them mentality. The challenge is the
USh and them are often too marginalized and minoritized communities ourselves.
I recall the exact experience you're describing will when we
(03:11):
saw the rise and recognition through a period of racial
and social reckoning following the murder of George Floyd May
twenty twenty, and then by March of twenty twenty one,
we started to see increasing narratives and stories highlighting this
notion of hashtag stop.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
Asian hate in numerous organizations.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
You saw this conflict begin to be developed between how
communities are interacting with one another, where support systems are
built versus none, and you literally saw organizations positioning a
perspective that what, we gave this much money to black communities,
and so we need to think about how do we
support API communities. The harsh reality, though, is that the
(03:50):
experiences of the communities are so different, and when you
position it as a zero sum game, it assumes that
there's only this amount of pie that's available for us
to fight over. Meanwhile, those that exist in the space
of the dominant discourse are enjoying all of their nourishment
and fruits and delight on this side. For organizations to
be successful here, the lens of equity requires us to
(04:13):
consider the specific needs of key organizations and recognizing where
our companies may have been complicit in the marginalization of
those communities. Take, for example, the sports industry and certainly
in the footwear industry. Arguably every streetwear, lifestylear performance space
footwear brand has benefited off of the contributions of black bodies,
(04:36):
whether it's the athletes that represent these organizations through a
sports marketing lens or the consumers that patronize their businesses
and organizations every single day in physical platforms and digital
These organizations then have an obligation to think about how
they support these communities that are a part of the
building and development of their bottom line. To do this effectively, though,
(04:59):
we can cannot see the work of support of marginalized
communities at awe to one another, but rather recognize that
to truly move towards systemic solutions means gaining a stronger
understanding of where we've been and how we got here,
how does this show up in the present and its
impact and implication on people, and then what investments are
(05:20):
we going to make as an organization, since you're a
betterment of future.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
I want to go a level deeper there because I've
heard black women talk about this. You know, black women's
diversity and equity inside the workplace lags behind Black people
in the workplace. And I've heard black women talk about
when organizations and companies talk about well you talk about
women's issues, is black women get left out and white
women ultimately benefit from the efforts that black women have
(05:46):
raised their arms about.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
What's your take on this?
Speaker 3 (05:50):
You know, well, in addition to my work as the
founder and CEO of the Rainbow Disruption, I also teach
in academic spaces. So I am a professor of practice
at Brown University. When that I work as part of
the fully Employed MBA program as well with the University
of California, Berkeley. And so a lot of my academic
research and pursuits center around the topics of intersectionality and
(06:11):
identity covering, and so the experience that you're describing is
squarely in that space of intersectionality. Originally a theory coined
in nineteen eighty nine by Kimberly Crenshaw from UCLA. It
argues that these interconnected identities that we have impact either
certain privileges that we have in some cases or increasing
(06:32):
marginalization in others. This is the exact experience that we
see with black women in the workplace. When organizations talk
about women's issues, when organizations talk about making investments in
supportive women, they're typically talking about experiences for white women.
Rarely do they consider the intersectional identity of the approach.
You can see this in the way affirmative action policies
(06:54):
have been built up. The biggest beneficiary of approaches to
affirmative action have indep been white women. On the flip side,
when many of these organizations, especially those in the technology industry,
describe experiences of people of color or underrepresented communities, they're
typically talking about black men or Asian men, and so
(07:14):
black women end up getting lost in where and how
does this work is positioned. And yet that means that
we're not able to effectively solve for some of the
challenges that become impediments to her ability to be successful
in the workplace. Take pay equity will We often talk
about the gender dynamic and the gender pay gap, and
yet it was not until recently that we actually started
(07:35):
to dig into conversations that found that globally around the world,
if we look at where white women are positioned relative
to non Hispanic identified white men and then applied another
layer to look at black women, black women sit at
levels even below her white female counterparts. Furthermore, in terms
of development, namely mentorship and sponsorship, she's often met with
(07:59):
resistance in so many ways around the ability to grow,
advance and develop her career. And what's more, when you
add on macro political and macro social layers like those
surrounding the rhetoric and sentiment connected to the Crown Act,
that's where we begin to see the biggest implication on
her experience, where she has to make a concerted decision
(08:21):
every single day how to wear her hair to avoid
being the recipient of microaggressive behavior at best, an abject
discontent and disrespect on what the evolution of her career
could actually look like because of how she wears her hair, which,
as we know in the context of hair of politics,
has so many deep connections to our experiences and identity
(08:43):
as black culture.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
When we think about the intersection of what it means
to be both black and a woman, she finds herself
at this intersection of certain aspects of marginalization where she's
fighting to keep up in so many ways to not
only the status of identity and experience, but she finds
herself competing with her white female counterparts because we have
(09:06):
been so preconditioned to believe that there is only one
seat for.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Us that are available. I'll just add to this world.
This is why even more when I talk in my
lectures and the work that I do. I often say
that to truly democratize diversity, equity, and inclusion, we have
got to create equitable solutions for the most marginalized amongst us,
and my work and studies we've discovered that is black
(09:30):
transgender women. To find yourself at the intersection of not
only trans or queer identities, but female identities as well
as being part of the black community or black identities
means access to things like environmental protections from an environmental
justice standpoint, health equity, and the ability to not only
seek care and treatment from folks that understand your experiences,
(09:53):
but also the ability to find a job and not
be subjected to under or underemployment, because what was the
experiences of those The further you get away from the center,
as Bill Hooks describes it, and the further you get
closer to the margin.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
You've talked about growing up, you know, giving speeches in
debate as being critical to your success. I want to
hear more about it.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
You know, well, my family has a very long history
of the speech debate space.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
My mom was a debater, my older brother was a debater.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
And so in high school I didn't really feel like
I had a choice. It was just kind of what
we do in this houshold, and it had the biggest
impact on my life and career. So I went on
to debate throughout my years in high school and went
on to be a national champion debater for Rice University,
and then went on to coach a number of schools
at both the high school and collegiate level, including coaching
(10:47):
a number of national changions. What speech and debate provides
for people is the ability to understand the mode and
means of effective communication, both verbal and written. It allows
you to under stand what self expression of identity is,
and it allows you to not only find your voice,
not only use your voice, but leverage your voice as
(11:09):
a means of having power and impact. The beauty of
it is well in the DEI space, we often talk
about this concept of giving us a seat at the table,
and I've often challenged that because this table could be broken,
this table could be being held up under the bottom
by communities that we don't even see down there, which
is the case with many fortune one thousand organizations, this
(11:30):
table could be ratch. I don't necessarily need the seat
at the table. I want the voice in the conversation.
I want you to understand my sentiments, I want you
to respect it, and I want to have the ability
for my sentiments and perspective to be built into the
way that this organization runs and thrives strategically and operationally.
(11:52):
Speech and debate gave me those skills to understand how
to build an effective argument, how to build sound logic
and rationale, and how to combine those great theories that
are so deeply rooted in the idea of public speaking,
to eat those logos and paint those that make the ethical, emotional,
and logical appeals. To be able to forge connections for people,
(12:14):
whether I'm informing you about a topic, attempting to persuade
you about something, or just trying to make you laugh.
This is why I highly encourage especially underrepresented communities. One
of the biggest issues that we face in both governmental
spaces and nonprofit spaces, academic institutions, as well as in
our companies is feeling voiceless, feeling that we don't have
(12:36):
a way or means to be.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
A part of this conversation.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
It's why I encourage underrepresented high school, middle school, and
college students in role in public speaking courses, join speech
and debate teams, because the confidence that you build and
the ability to find your voice becomes something will that
no one can take away from you, and it becomes
so highly impactful in how we lead and thrive over time.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I've had this conversation with several people recently who built
companies or you know, whether they be small businesses or
tech companies, but in traditionally non melanated spaces, right and so,
and I ask, I'm always interested in how they manage
themselves in environments where they are not represented. Particularly, I
was talking to Derek from Cloudy Donut about the Nonisota
(13:24):
tooe y'all. I was talking to him and all of
his donut shops are in white neighborhoods, and he was
talking about how he doesn't assimilate. He is who he
is and completely who he is. He doesn't change his
the vocal tone of his voice, you know. And I'm
so interested in your take on this because I was
reading something where you said where I finally began to
understand the culture to which I wanted to be a
part of. I no longer had to think about this
(13:45):
construct of assimilation. I could be myself and I think
about this from a perspective of there's got to be
some wisdom behind that too, because and I want you
to correct me if I'm thinking about this wrongly, because
I think about, yes, you can be you, but you
can't just give sometimes you got to give doses until
you've proven yourself in the room.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
And so can you talk about that?
Speaker 3 (14:11):
You know, well, if the question is that I always
look like this, no, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
Fortunate one dousand spaces.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
With rainbow locks and living my truth, you know, it
was a journey of authenticity, you know when I think
about assimilation. And I'm actually really thrilled to share with
the viewers of this podcast. It's actually the first time
that I talk about this publicly. I have just finished
the manuscript from my book Dei Credential, which will be
coming out this summer, and in DEI Credential, one of
(14:40):
the pieces that I described is a definition for me
around assimilation, and I posit that assimilation is a tool
of the oppressor, which is utilized as a means to
destroy culture and character, to degradate history and heritage, and
to overcome the personal to the personality. With assimilation, it
(15:02):
forces us to think through gaslighting techniques that who we are,
that our experiences, that the loves that we have in
life are bad, are harmful or negative, and that to
truly be successful and thrive in a deeply capitalistic environment,
we have to harness perspectives that shies away from what
(15:23):
our actual cultural heritage is and moves toward or in
service of, everything that the.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Dominant discourse tells us it should be. Well.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
I have rejected this almost every single day in my
professional career. It's hard, the dissonance that exists between trying
to show up as somebody else, to serve a group
of folks, just to get to that next promotion, just
to get that next raise. You end up working yourself
so much that the burnout both physically, mentally and emotionally
(15:55):
becomes so deeply pressured. In the book, I write about
this conversation of the emotional tax, also known as the
black tax. It's this construct of working twice as hard
to only get half the progress, or have to work.
Here's the challenge with that. When I was going into
workplaces very early in my career, I found myself giving
smaller doses than I should have, and so I found
(16:17):
myself in conversations that felt microaggressive, that felt incredibly disrespectful,
that felt racists, that felt homophobic in so many ways.
And I was working in big oil and gas and
telecommunications companies, and so when you're doing professional services or
client services work, you don't always feel comfortable speaking out
about the behaviors of those clients because those individuals are
(16:39):
ultimately helping the firm grow and helping the firm drive.
By the time I jumped into the technology industry, though,
will I changed my whole perspective on this. Now, let
me be clear, a lot of folks will will walk
around and tell you to be your authentic self and
bring your full self to work. My full self did
not belong in anybody's corporate space or anybody's corpus. Seting
(17:02):
me after five PM is real fun and probably does
not belong in the four wall on the corporate But
what I did find is that authenticity is defining those
values that are important to you and being unwilling to sacrifice,
shift or move away from those values at.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
Eighty and all costs. And so that is what was
important to me.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
And so throughout my time at Nike, for example, you know,
I came into Nike in April twenty eighteen, Ball fade
part on the side, still trying to relive my early
nineties truth and by the time I departed the company
in November twenty twenty two to launch my firm, The
Rainbow Disruption, you know, I was walking around navigating the
world with rainbow locks and dressing exactly how I wanted
(17:45):
to because those experiences of growing up as a black
man in Houston, those experiences in surrounding myself in queer
spaces and LGBTQ plus serving spaces, those are all a
part of who I am, and so they have to
be brought in spaces because they're a part of that
value set that I hold and that I support. My
message to the listeners on this will and I get
(18:08):
that what I'm saying is not easy. I'm not saying
that you go to your job tomorrow and you're like,
I'm good here, Thomas show up. That's not the case.
It is a journey. I recognize and understand that. But
what I don't think enough of us do is write
down what those values are and then be unwilling and
(18:29):
unwavering in the lack of sacrificing those as you navigate workspaces,
even if it may come at the impact.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
Of your career.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
We are brilliant, we are great, and so understand and
leverage that and recognize that even if that's not a
great fit here, there's a lot of organizations that desire
your talent.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
There is DEI, the role of death.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
I mean, let's be honest, who people decide to work
with can be very personal. People like to do business
with people they like. But part of the work of
diversity is to show that people outside their bubbles and
norms add value.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
But there's still that human struggle.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Does the work of pushing require you to put yourself
on the line at every time?
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Jarvis speaks on.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
It, It is a really great question, Will and I
think it depends on one, the maturation of the organization
in terms of their readiness for great DEI programming and work.
And then two, it depends on both the resilience and
impact of the leader. I'll say this hand or heart,
working for myself now owning my own firm and in
(19:47):
the work that my team does with the Rainbow Disruption,
I am no longer bridled or stifled by this duality
of having to force the uncomfortable conversation while also having
to worry about the political nature of my own career management,
having to think about if I give this leader this
type of feedback which is necessary for them to grow
(20:07):
and develop and provide impact in the organization, is that
going to impact my performance review or my ability to
take on my next role in the company. It's just
not something I have to worry about anymore. And so
I can show up and authentically engage with the various
different clients, partners, and organizations that I work with, because
that constraints not fair, like I'm not on y'all's benefits play,
(20:29):
and so I can talk to you about what is
actually necessary in your organization. You know, well, over the
last three years, the term diversity, equity and inclusion, and
when it's positioned to people, it's met with resistance by
a lot of communities. And the reason that happens is diversity,
equity and inclusion, when done right, is literally a challenge
(20:49):
to the status quo. It is a perspective that says,
the way that we have done things historically have not
fostered the outcomes to which we desire going forward, and
so how do we create points of intervention to challenge
that systemically. As you can imagine, this causes a lot
of fear to a lot of people because if you
have built your career and your last three promotions have
(21:11):
come via some connection to systems of nepotism that have
allowed you to grow and develop, and now I'm saying
we're actually going.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
To change that.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
We're going to focus on inclusive hiring measures where we
have a diverse slate of talent. We're going to position
diversity in our interview panels, and by the way, we're
going to think about inclusive succession planning and how we develop,
advance and promote talent. This causes fear with folks where
they end up resisting the future state approach. It's not
that they actually have a problem with understanding the car
(21:42):
tours of diversity and what elements of identity is. There
is a fear that if you change the system so
much that I have been a beneficiary of, I now
have no clue what approaches to advancement and development might
actually look like. And so well, I don't believe that
it has to be the role of death.
Speaker 4 (22:02):
Do I think it's difficult?
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Absolutely? Do I think DEI leaders really have to focus
on the protection of our own mental health and well being,
and organizations need to prioritize resourcing to support us absolutely,
because the reality is George Floyd's murder was such a
big moment that organizations basically starting to position the chief Diversity,
(22:24):
Equity and Inclusion Officer and essentially a public affairs type role.
You got cdios right now having to be the voice
of response when there's an earthquake in Turkey, when there's
violence in the form of war between Russia and the Ukraine,
when there's continued conflict between Israel and power sign with
literally every shooting and experience of gun violence in this country,
(22:48):
the CDIO is now looked at as the voice of
reason and rationality.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
There. That is such a shift.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
In dynamic to where now this leader is playing a
role of government and public affairs without the accountability, responsibility,
or the authority to actually make.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
GPA based decisions.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
They are having to opine on global sustainability based topics
without being an expert in spaces of climate change. They
are having to navigate conversations about social and community impact
without overseeing the multi million dollar budgets that are used
to be spent in these spaces for organizations to be successful,
you have to understand the significant amount of work that's
(23:29):
being put on. These leaders exhibit the grace with understanding, No,
they will not create solutions in three years that resolves
something that you have built over the last fifty seventy
five and one hundred years in many of these companies.
And so we have to understand how do we give
the same rigor and intentionality to social innovation with diversity,
(23:50):
equity and inclusion that we do with product innovation When
we're developing that new app, piece of footwear or a
pail based product.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
You tie THEI efforts because they can't just be tied
to you know, this the right thing to do? How
do you tie it to actual value and business goals?
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Yeah, you know there's a few things I think on
the ethical argument for diversity, though, this right thing to do,
this so called moral imperative. I don't think we can
overlook that too much because a lot of organizations try
to move so clearly to the business case, and when
you do that, you lose sight of the fact that, like,
there's a whole bunch of sociological, anthropological and psychological impact
(24:31):
and implication that got us to where we are today.
I need you to understand how periods and and development
enslavement impact it. Jim Crow laws and policies which now
impact how black communities show up each and every day,
and particularly in the workplace. I need you to understand
how the media is representation and raffine of certain stereotypes
(24:52):
that impact underrepresented communities all come from the history of
our experience. So we can't overlook that moral imperative because
I argue, will it is the right thing to do,
because we are better not saying we are better as
people than another group. I'm saying, as humanity, we are
(25:13):
better than the systems, tools, resources, and processes that we
have chosen to accept that continue to put some communities
out of the ability to equitably engage in society. We
as humanity are better than the tactics and strategies being
deployed by the current state of the criminal justice system.
This is a topic that we've known for years that
(25:35):
continues to have such far reaching impacts and implications not
just on black and brown bodies, but black families, black men,
black women, so on and so forth. We are better
than that, and so we have to resolve that and
so a lot of companies then turn to the business
case for diversity.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
I will tell you well, I was very proud women
get see.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
A company release the studies around this work in twenty
fifteen and corroborated it into twenty seventeen and twenty eighteen,
and then Deloitte and BCG added some additional imminence connected
to it. However, the one critique that I've always positioned
around the business case so called for diversity, equity and
inclusion is that it considers this work in such a
deeply aggregated nature that it doesn't force organizations to understand
(26:19):
how their own history continues to contribute to the negative
impacts and implications of the work. The business case in
many ways would lead organizations to believe that if you
certainly hire or position black and brown bodies in certain roles,
you're immediately going to see this thirty five percent greater
likelihood of financial outperformance.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
And that's not the.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Reality of the case. If your organization has not done
the work to shift your culture or the climate within
your organization, this talent that you've put in role will
not be set up for success. They will continue to
be pushing up against a cement ceiling that has always
been positioned against them. And then when you don't achieve
those great business results that have been highlighted by the study,
(27:02):
you can now not hold yourself accountable but rather blame
shift to put it on that individual. And so will
to answer your question directly, how then do we tie
this to business goals? Goal setting is absolutely critical. Employees
care about four main things in the workplace transparency, visibility, accountability,
(27:24):
and belonging. I am a huge fan of the idea
of consequential accountability. This is the idea that we as
an organization have set a goal or a target that
we want to achieve and there are consequences connected to it,
not through the lens of blame, but through the lens
of accountability. So, when we choose to tie executive compensation,
for example, to growth and representation goals, or commitment to
(27:46):
DEE education or advancement to community and social impact policies.
In addition to that, when we set these goals, it
needs to be specific enough in such a way that
even if we put position and growth opportunities for representation,
in particular for growth of women, in the growth of
communities of color, how are we digging into that concept
(28:08):
of intersectionality to make sure that our women numbers are
not just growing because of elevation and promotion of white women,
and that our people of color are underrepresented numbers aren't
just growing because of the hiring and development of new
black or Asian engineers. Rather, how do we understand both
through pay equity, through core experience, through education, development and
(28:29):
community that we're solving for those intersections of identity along
the way that we're providing experience and pull surveys to
understand that impact and that DEI has a place not
just on the team and talent strategy for an HR
or people in culture organization, but that it is positioned
right on that corporate strategy for the organization. That's how
(28:50):
you drive results. Will if every strategy coming out of
DEI can tie back in some way to the core
goals that the business is looking to drive from a
strategy and operations perspective, That's where impact is created. And
that is why I often highlight and lecture and serience
that I do. I'm a business leader. It just happens
(29:11):
to be that my field of practice is helping organizations
realize their fullest social and economic potential through the lens
and advocacy of DEI.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
You know one thing we haven't discussed here that I've
got you for a few more minutes, and I want
to talk about this concept of supplier diversity, right. Yeah,
So one thing many companies lean on as an excuse is,
you know, black owned companies don't have the capacity, particularly corporations.
You know, larger small businesses lean on that, yep. And
how can they instead help smaller companies black owned companies
(29:46):
build capacity versus count them out?
Speaker 3 (29:49):
It is so necessary, you know, the supplier diversity space.
It has been around a really long time. In fact,
work around supplier diversity has been around longer than a
lot of the core team and talent strategies that we know,
like the Rooney Ruler, the diverse later proch on the
team and talent side. And so there's a number of learnings,
especially from folks who I would consider absolute maven's in
the space, like McDonald's, like University of Chicago, who continue
(30:13):
to do such amazing industry leading work in this space.
But you're right, will so many companies argue, well, in
a competitive process of an R ANDP, we're just not
finding enough black owned businesses that can support this work,
and so you end up giving us the small contracts
for things like minimal food service, occasionally bringing us in
to do some content creation and marketing or videography work,
(30:35):
where the big contracts are going to major technology suppliers,
major marketing suppliers. For organizations to be successful, they have
to move beyond the programmatic and truly go to the systemic.
The programmatic is to say we're going to go out
and create this list of underrepresented suppliers and hopefully they
lay in we're going to try to position these black
(30:57):
small businesses into these smaller areas within our company or organization. Rather,
we should be finding ways to help them grow to
scale and through the lens of sustainability, help them understand
what results in a successful RP.
Speaker 4 (31:11):
Within your organization.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
Help them by positioning some of the smaller entities within
your company or organization to be successful. For example, if
we think about the footwear industry, while a vendor may
not yet be perfect for Nike eight, could they do
work to support the converse brand to understand the infrastructure
around the organization but build from there. While an organization
may not be fully equipped for example, to support a
(31:36):
large retailer, could they work on one aspect of the
merchandising space. That way they're knee deep in the ecosystem
and growing and developing. And then what's more, how are
companies actually investing money into ensuring that these businesses can
grow by providing them core skills on how to effectively
run a business. When you think about some of the
(31:57):
major I'll even say Fortune one hundred companies, will they
have some of the best communications teams, operations teams, supply
chain teams, merchandising teams.
Speaker 4 (32:07):
What would it look like to.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Have those leaders and their teams extend pro bono support
and engagement with these organizations to ensure that their business
model is air tight so that when they come to
you a year from then with an RFP, they're not
only competitive in the process, but we know how they
grow at a scale. If your organization is focused on
the impact that you're having in terms of carbon reduction,
(32:30):
for example, to drive towards applimate change goals, make sure
that you're equipping these folks with the knowledge upfront so
that they're aligning their own approach to global sustainability with
that that you have as an organization, and finally, we'll
align to the same previous question that you asked around
goal setting. We have got to set targets around supplier diversity,
(32:51):
but I want to see disaggregated targets because a lot
of companies will set one billion dollar targets five billion
dollar targets over the course of a couple of years.
If you dig into it, the majority of those funds
are going to term women owned businesses, which is absolutely incredible.
We do need to be investing even more significantly in
women owned businesses, and in veteran owned businesses, and in
(33:12):
underrepresented owned businesses. However, if we're not considering if ninety
percent of those women owned businesses are owned by white women,
and that none of the funding is being distributed or
allocated to support Black women, Latino women, Native women, are
First Nations women, or API women, we have not done
our job effectively. We're giving ourselves a pattern the ba
(33:33):
for what is arguably a participation trophy to make us
feel good or better about what we're doing. It's often
argued that disaggregation of data helps us to make more
intentional and deliberate and accurate decision making, and so I
implore organizations disaggregate it, hold yourselves accountable, and enable your consumers, vendors,
(33:55):
and stakeholders to be a part of that journey.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
With you in the matter of respecting DEI expertise. Right, So,
if I'm a business and I'm looking for a DEI person,
how do I know that this person can actually do
the job effectively one? And how can I be a
respected DEI leader?
Speaker 3 (34:15):
I think on the first front, well, this is show
topic ho you know. Following George Fwitz Murder, I saw
a lot of organizations either go out to the marketplace
to find DEI leaders, and I found others elevate leaders
within their organization. Some elevated leaders that had a great
experience in the space or at least knew some effort
around how to drive great progress in the war. Others
(34:39):
elevated leaders who simply had a passion for it. It
is unfair to those leaders, you know, when I think
about other functions within an organization, As I said, to
drive DEI effectively, we must think about it and connects
to our business strategy and business operations. In no other
function would we ever take a leader and just position
(35:01):
them in a role based off an element of identity
and passion. Will I actually really like product development? I
almost failed out of art class in eighth grade. I
can't draw, And so my passion for design and product development.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
Does not mean that I could go and become a chief.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Design officer at a Fortune five hundred company. And so
the fact that we have taken in some cases it's
very lackadaisical approach around just placing a talent in role.
It's unfair to the organization. It's unfair to all equity
serving communities that are part of that engagement.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
With the organization.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
And it's unfair to that person because when they step
into the role and they are unable to be successful
because they've never driven approaches that actually foster systemic change
in this arena, we still point the finger at them
because the accountability exists within them. All the other leaders
will have absolved themselves of their own accountability and how
(35:58):
they drive progress in the space, and so.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
That leader is ultimately unsuccessful.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
And so for businesses, I highly encourage them think about
what engagement and partnerships, for example, what firms like mine
might look like with the rainbow disruption, we can help
that great DEI leaders for and with you, as well
as help to establish the infrastructure that's necessary as you
build your own strategy and operating model around engagement in
this space.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
The whole goal is we need to be doing.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
This work to drive longer term sustainability and to ensure
that we're creating measurable and monitorable frameworks to do the
work even more effectively. And so organizations have to make
sure that they are prioritizing both experience and knowledge in
the space even more than passion and lived experience is
(36:46):
critical though I see a lot of organizations promoting and
elevating folks who do not speak from the community or
do not speak from the eye of experience, and that's tough.
It does not mean that these folks cannot as allies,
advocate or access activists for.
Speaker 4 (37:03):
The communities that are there.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
But unfortunately, the black experience is one that is so
unique in the United States and in various spaces. There's
various parts of Western Europe, certainly South Africa, and so
we need folks in these roles that can actually speak
to those experiences, that understand what it means to be
at the margin of experiences of racial minoritized status, to
(37:25):
be able to actually impact change on the flip side
for DEI leaders. Will I get the question a lot
in my LinkedIn inbox, And when I do lectures at
universities of a number of college students who are like
I want to go into the DEI space. And I
think part of it is rooted in gen Z and
jen ALPA's strong knowledge connection and commitment to overcoming systems
(37:48):
of oppression and resolving things like institutional and structural racism.
And yet in most cases I tell them, don't do
it immediately out of college. I think there is something
so critical about getting experiences outside of this space, whether
it's in HR directly, in marketing and product roles, in
finance and sales. There is something so critical about learning
(38:13):
foundations and fundamentals of how businesses run and operate so
that when you do step into the DEI role, you
can be effective and you can drive great work in progress.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
Now I get it.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
Well, that may sound a bit counter productive or counterintuitive
to exactly what I just argue, this idea that you
need to be hiring experienced professionals. My recommendation is entered
organization and do a role in a different function for
two to three years, and then step in as a coordinator,
as a specialist, as a junior manager to learn the
(38:46):
framework and understanding of the space.
Speaker 4 (38:48):
Read the text from.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
Leaders that are driving thought leadership and engagement here, follow
the right folks on Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn that are
positioning thought leadership on this topic, and then parlay that
into a growth and development opportunity in the space. Furthermore, though,
I highly encourage my peers and colleagues in the space
that are chief diversity officers or DEI leaders, continue to
(39:12):
grow in your own practice like keep yourself sharp. I
talk to a lot of DEI leaders that at times
I feel like they may rest on their lawrels of
their experience from doing this work so well and for
so many years. The reality though will is times were
changing so significantly, and as gen Z and Janalpa are
very actively and rapidly entering the workforce, expectations are different.
(39:36):
There are many DEI practitions who have not had to
navigate this construct of identity, for example around pronoun utilization
and understanding how to create inclusive spaces for transgendering non
binary communities. They have not had to navigate conversations around
neurodiversity and neurodivergence. They have not had to navigate effective
accommodations for individuals with disabilities.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
We all have to continue to row in.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
Our own countenances, to be sharp, to be effective, and
to grow this work even more while also ensuring to
protect our own well being.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Black Tech Green Money is a production of Blavity, afro
Tech on the Black Effect Podcast Network and I Hire Media,
and it's produced by Morgan Debond and me Well Lucas,
with additional production support by Sarah Ergin and Rose McLucas.
Special thank you to Michael Davis sivin That's a Serrano.
Learn more about my guests and other tech this refors
and innovators at afrotech dot com joining Black Tech Green Money.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Share this with somebody, go get your money, peace and love.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Check me out at the annual Black Effect Podcast Festival
happening Saturday, April twenty seventh in Atlanta. Live podcasts are
on deck from some favorite shows, including this one, Black
Tech Green Money, and also some of the best podcasts
in the game, like Deeply Well with Debbie Brown and
Carefully Reckless. Atlanta is one of my favorite cities in
the world.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
I lived there for two years.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Actually, in my worldview, seeing us successful in every industry
and not having any limits on our potential largely was
shaved by Atlanta. So to be there with you doing
this podcast talking about how we build or leverage technology
to build wealth. Come on, man, doesn't get better. I
want to see you there. Get your tickets today at
black effect dot comback Slash Podcast Festival
Check me out at the annual Black Effect Podcast Festival,
happening Saturday, April twenty seventh in Atlanta. Live podcasts are
on deck from some of your favorite shows, including this one,
Black Tech, Green Money, and also some of the best
podcasts in the game like Deeply Well with Debbie Brown
and Carefully Reckless. Atlanta is one of my favorite cities
in the world. I've lived there for two years. Actually,
in my worldview, seeing us successful in every industry and
(00:23):
not having any limits on our potential largely was shaped
by Atlanta. So to be there with you doing this
podcast talking about how we build or leverage technology to
bill wealth. Come on, man, doesn't get better. I want
to see you there. Get your tickets today at Black
Effect dot comback's last podcast festival. I'm Will Lucas and
this is Black Tech, Green Money. Jarvis SAMs, founder and
(00:43):
CEO at The Rainbow Disruption with the mission is to
partner with organizations to develop practical solutions that champion DEI
in the workplace and enables systemic progress where authenticity, empathy, growth,
mindset and transparency are celebrated. Previously, he was Chief Diversity,
Equity and Inclusion Officer at Nike. A large effort in
(01:04):
DEI is to create equitable opportunities in spaces where people
from various backgrounds can have a voice.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
These are achievable goals.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
So if we're successful in do DEI, executives ultimately work
themselves out of jobs.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
I think that the work equity and inclusion is actually
never done, as we see as time goes on in
different horizons change, different groups ultimately end up being at
the center of experiences of marginalization.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Unfortunately, the raw reality of our work.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Is that because so many different factors social, political, environmental,
economic tie into the way that we do our work,
there's always going to be a need for organizations to
understand how do we create equitable approaches and equitable outcomes
that serve people and teams. I think the product inclusion
space is critical here will if you take a look
(01:54):
at what new product development looks like within organizations. Every
time a company drives in to stand up a new product,
we have to consider it through the lens of ensuring
that it's accessible to all people. I'llbe at disability status,
language barriers, or otherwise. And so with some of those
different constraints in mind, the work of equity practitioners to
(02:15):
ensure great outcomes for all will forever be something that
we have to continue doing.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
And to that point, you know, I've heard you talk
about before, specifically the around the time of George Floyd
and coming out of the pandemic, there was so much
focus on making sure.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Black people got equity in the workplace.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
And then there was this big uprising in you know,
Pacific Islander and Asians talking about they needed, you.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Know, equity.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
So how do corporations manage effectively so many people you know,
chomping at their heels saying, hey, you got to pay
attention to us too when it when it changes so frequently.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Yeah, you know, for starters, organizations have got to not
look at this as a zero of some game. Unfortunately,
so many organizations have positioned the nature of this work
through in us versus them mentality. The challenge is the
USh and them are often too marginalized and minoritized communities ourselves.
I recall the exact experience you're describing will when we
(03:11):
saw the rise and recognition through a period of racial
and social reckoning following the murder of George Floyd May
twenty twenty, and then by March of twenty twenty one,
we started to see increasing narratives and stories highlighting this
notion of hashtag stop.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
Asian hate in numerous organizations.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
You saw this conflict begin to be developed between how
communities are interacting with one another, where support systems are
built versus none, and you literally saw organizations positioning a
perspective that what, we gave this much money to black communities,
and so we need to think about how do we
support API communities. The harsh reality, though, is that the
(03:50):
experiences of the communities are so different, and when you
position it as a zero sum game, it assumes that
there's only this amount of pie that's available for us
to fight over. Meanwhile, those that exist in the space
of the dominant discourse are enjoying all of their nourishment
and fruits and delight on this side. For organizations to
be successful here, the lens of equity requires us to
(04:13):
consider the specific needs of key organizations and recognizing where
our companies may have been complicit in the marginalization of
those communities. Take, for example, the sports industry and certainly
in the footwear industry. Arguably every streetwear, lifestylear performance space
footwear brand has benefited off of the contributions of black bodies,
(04:36):
whether it's the athletes that represent these organizations through a
sports marketing lens or the consumers that patronize their businesses
and organizations every single day in physical platforms and digital
These organizations then have an obligation to think about how
they support these communities that are a part of the
building and development of their bottom line. To do this effectively, though,
(04:59):
we can cannot see the work of support of marginalized
communities at awe to one another, but rather recognize that
to truly move towards systemic solutions means gaining a stronger
understanding of where we've been and how we got here,
how does this show up in the present and its
impact and implication on people, and then what investments are
(05:20):
we going to make as an organization, since you're a
betterment of future.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
I want to go a level deeper there because I've
heard black women talk about this. You know, black women's
diversity and equity inside the workplace lags behind Black people
in the workplace. And I've heard black women talk about
when organizations and companies talk about well you talk about
women's issues, is black women get left out and white
women ultimately benefit from the efforts that black women have
(05:46):
raised their arms about.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
What's your take on this?
Speaker 3 (05:50):
You know, well, in addition to my work as the
founder and CEO of the Rainbow Disruption, I also teach
in academic spaces. So I am a professor of practice
at Brown University. When that I work as part of
the fully Employed MBA program as well with the University
of California, Berkeley. And so a lot of my academic
research and pursuits center around the topics of intersectionality and
(06:11):
identity covering, and so the experience that you're describing is
squarely in that space of intersectionality. Originally a theory coined
in nineteen eighty nine by Kimberly Crenshaw from UCLA. It
argues that these interconnected identities that we have impact either
certain privileges that we have in some cases or increasing
(06:32):
marginalization in others. This is the exact experience that we
see with black women in the workplace. When organizations talk
about women's issues, when organizations talk about making investments in
supportive women, they're typically talking about experiences for white women.
Rarely do they consider the intersectional identity of the approach.
You can see this in the way affirmative action policies
(06:54):
have been built up. The biggest beneficiary of approaches to
affirmative action have indep been white women. On the flip side,
when many of these organizations, especially those in the technology industry,
describe experiences of people of color or underrepresented communities, they're
typically talking about black men or Asian men, and so
(07:14):
black women end up getting lost in where and how
does this work is positioned. And yet that means that
we're not able to effectively solve for some of the
challenges that become impediments to her ability to be successful
in the workplace. Take pay equity will We often talk
about the gender dynamic and the gender pay gap, and
yet it was not until recently that we actually started
(07:35):
to dig into conversations that found that globally around the world,
if we look at where white women are positioned relative
to non Hispanic identified white men and then applied another
layer to look at black women, black women sit at
levels even below her white female counterparts. Furthermore, in terms
of development, namely mentorship and sponsorship, she's often met with
(07:59):
resistance in so many ways around the ability to grow,
advance and develop her career. And what's more, when you
add on macro political and macro social layers like those
surrounding the rhetoric and sentiment connected to the Crown Act,
that's where we begin to see the biggest implication on
her experience, where she has to make a concerted decision
(08:21):
every single day how to wear her hair to avoid
being the recipient of microaggressive behavior at best, an abject
discontent and disrespect on what the evolution of her career
could actually look like because of how she wears her hair, which,
as we know in the context of hair of politics,
has so many deep connections to our experiences and identity
(08:43):
as black culture.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
When we think about the intersection of what it means
to be both black and a woman, she finds herself
at this intersection of certain aspects of marginalization where she's
fighting to keep up in so many ways to not
only the status of identity and experience, but she finds
herself competing with her white female counterparts because we have
(09:06):
been so preconditioned to believe that there is only one
seat for.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Us that are available. I'll just add to this world.
This is why even more when I talk in my
lectures and the work that I do. I often say
that to truly democratize diversity, equity, and inclusion, we have
got to create equitable solutions for the most marginalized amongst us,
and my work and studies we've discovered that is black
(09:30):
transgender women. To find yourself at the intersection of not
only trans or queer identities, but female identities as well
as being part of the black community or black identities
means access to things like environmental protections from an environmental
justice standpoint, health equity, and the ability to not only
seek care and treatment from folks that understand your experiences,
(09:53):
but also the ability to find a job and not
be subjected to under or underemployment, because what was the
experiences of those The further you get away from the center,
as Bill Hooks describes it, and the further you get
closer to the margin.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
You've talked about growing up, you know, giving speeches in
debate as being critical to your success. I want to
hear more about it.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
You know, well, my family has a very long history
of the speech debate space.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
My mom was a debater, my older brother was a debater.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
And so in high school I didn't really feel like
I had a choice. It was just kind of what
we do in this houshold, and it had the biggest
impact on my life and career. So I went on
to debate throughout my years in high school and went
on to be a national champion debater for Rice University,
and then went on to coach a number of schools
at both the high school and collegiate level, including coaching
(10:47):
a number of national changions. What speech and debate provides
for people is the ability to understand the mode and
means of effective communication, both verbal and written. It allows
you to under stand what self expression of identity is,
and it allows you to not only find your voice,
not only use your voice, but leverage your voice as
(11:09):
a means of having power and impact. The beauty of
it is well in the DEI space, we often talk
about this concept of giving us a seat at the table,
and I've often challenged that because this table could be broken,
this table could be being held up under the bottom
by communities that we don't even see down there, which
is the case with many fortune one thousand organizations, this
(11:30):
table could be ratch. I don't necessarily need the seat
at the table. I want the voice in the conversation.
I want you to understand my sentiments, I want you
to respect it, and I want to have the ability
for my sentiments and perspective to be built into the
way that this organization runs and thrives strategically and operationally.
(11:52):
Speech and debate gave me those skills to understand how
to build an effective argument, how to build sound logic
and rationale, and how to combine those great theories that
are so deeply rooted in the idea of public speaking,
to eat those logos and paint those that make the ethical, emotional,
and logical appeals. To be able to forge connections for people,
(12:14):
whether I'm informing you about a topic, attempting to persuade
you about something, or just trying to make you laugh.
This is why I highly encourage especially underrepresented communities. One
of the biggest issues that we face in both governmental
spaces and nonprofit spaces, academic institutions, as well as in
our companies is feeling voiceless, feeling that we don't have
(12:36):
a way or means to be.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
A part of this conversation.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
It's why I encourage underrepresented high school, middle school, and
college students in role in public speaking courses, join speech
and debate teams, because the confidence that you build and
the ability to find your voice becomes something will that
no one can take away from you, and it becomes
so highly impactful in how we lead and thrive over time.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I've had this conversation with several people recently who built
companies or you know, whether they be small businesses or
tech companies, but in traditionally non melanated spaces, right and so,
and I ask, I'm always interested in how they manage
themselves in environments where they are not represented. Particularly, I
was talking to Derek from Cloudy Donut about the Nonisota
(13:24):
tooe y'all. I was talking to him and all of
his donut shops are in white neighborhoods, and he was
talking about how he doesn't assimilate. He is who he
is and completely who he is. He doesn't change his
the vocal tone of his voice, you know. And I'm
so interested in your take on this because I was
reading something where you said where I finally began to
understand the culture to which I wanted to be a
part of. I no longer had to think about this
(13:45):
construct of assimilation. I could be myself and I think
about this from a perspective of there's got to be
some wisdom behind that too, because and I want you
to correct me if I'm thinking about this wrongly, because
I think about, yes, you can be you, but you
can't just give sometimes you got to give doses until
you've proven yourself in the room.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
And so can you talk about that?
Speaker 3 (14:11):
You know, well, if the question is that I always
look like this, no, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
Fortunate one dousand spaces.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
With rainbow locks and living my truth, you know, it
was a journey of authenticity, you know when I think
about assimilation. And I'm actually really thrilled to share with
the viewers of this podcast. It's actually the first time
that I talk about this publicly. I have just finished
the manuscript from my book Dei Credential, which will be
coming out this summer, and in DEI Credential, one of
(14:40):
the pieces that I described is a definition for me
around assimilation, and I posit that assimilation is a tool
of the oppressor, which is utilized as a means to
destroy culture and character, to degradate history and heritage, and
to overcome the personal to the personality. With assimilation, it
(15:02):
forces us to think through gaslighting techniques that who we are,
that our experiences, that the loves that we have in
life are bad, are harmful or negative, and that to
truly be successful and thrive in a deeply capitalistic environment,
we have to harness perspectives that shies away from what
(15:23):
our actual cultural heritage is and moves toward or in
service of, everything that the.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Dominant discourse tells us it should be. Well.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
I have rejected this almost every single day in my
professional career. It's hard, the dissonance that exists between trying
to show up as somebody else, to serve a group
of folks, just to get to that next promotion, just
to get that next raise. You end up working yourself
so much that the burnout both physically, mentally and emotionally
(15:55):
becomes so deeply pressured. In the book, I write about
this conversation of the emotional tax, also known as the
black tax. It's this construct of working twice as hard
to only get half the progress, or have to work.
Here's the challenge with that. When I was going into
workplaces very early in my career, I found myself giving
smaller doses than I should have, and so I found
(16:17):
myself in conversations that felt microaggressive, that felt incredibly disrespectful,
that felt racists, that felt homophobic in so many ways.
And I was working in big oil and gas and
telecommunications companies, and so when you're doing professional services or
client services work, you don't always feel comfortable speaking out
about the behaviors of those clients because those individuals are
(16:39):
ultimately helping the firm grow and helping the firm drive.
By the time I jumped into the technology industry, though,
will I changed my whole perspective on this. Now, let
me be clear, a lot of folks will will walk
around and tell you to be your authentic self and
bring your full self to work. My full self did
not belong in anybody's corporate space or anybody's corpus. Seting
(17:02):
me after five PM is real fun and probably does
not belong in the four wall on the corporate But
what I did find is that authenticity is defining those
values that are important to you and being unwilling to sacrifice,
shift or move away from those values at.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
Eighty and all costs. And so that is what was
important to me.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
And so throughout my time at Nike, for example, you know,
I came into Nike in April twenty eighteen, Ball fade
part on the side, still trying to relive my early
nineties truth and by the time I departed the company
in November twenty twenty two to launch my firm, The
Rainbow Disruption, you know, I was walking around navigating the
world with rainbow locks and dressing exactly how I wanted
(17:45):
to because those experiences of growing up as a black
man in Houston, those experiences in surrounding myself in queer
spaces and LGBTQ plus serving spaces, those are all a
part of who I am, and so they have to
be brought in spaces because they're a part of that
value set that I hold and that I support. My
message to the listeners on this will and I get
(18:08):
that what I'm saying is not easy. I'm not saying
that you go to your job tomorrow and you're like,
I'm good here, Thomas show up. That's not the case.
It is a journey. I recognize and understand that. But
what I don't think enough of us do is write
down what those values are and then be unwilling and
(18:29):
unwavering in the lack of sacrificing those as you navigate workspaces,
even if it may come at the impact.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
Of your career.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
We are brilliant, we are great, and so understand and
leverage that and recognize that even if that's not a
great fit here, there's a lot of organizations that desire
your talent.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
There is DEI, the role of death.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
I mean, let's be honest, who people decide to work
with can be very personal. People like to do business
with people they like. But part of the work of
diversity is to show that people outside their bubbles and
norms add value.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
But there's still that human struggle.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Does the work of pushing require you to put yourself
on the line at every time?
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Jarvis speaks on.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
It, It is a really great question, Will and I
think it depends on one, the maturation of the organization
in terms of their readiness for great DEI programming and work.
And then two, it depends on both the resilience and
impact of the leader. I'll say this hand or heart,
working for myself now owning my own firm and in
(19:47):
the work that my team does with the Rainbow Disruption,
I am no longer bridled or stifled by this duality
of having to force the uncomfortable conversation while also having
to worry about the political nature of my own career management,
having to think about if I give this leader this
type of feedback which is necessary for them to grow
(20:07):
and develop and provide impact in the organization, is that
going to impact my performance review or my ability to
take on my next role in the company. It's just
not something I have to worry about anymore. And so
I can show up and authentically engage with the various
different clients, partners, and organizations that I work with, because
that constraints not fair, like I'm not on y'all's benefits play,
(20:29):
and so I can talk to you about what is
actually necessary in your organization. You know, well, over the
last three years, the term diversity, equity and inclusion, and
when it's positioned to people, it's met with resistance by
a lot of communities. And the reason that happens is diversity,
equity and inclusion, when done right, is literally a challenge
(20:49):
to the status quo. It is a perspective that says,
the way that we have done things historically have not
fostered the outcomes to which we desire going forward, and
so how do we create points of intervention to challenge
that systemically. As you can imagine, this causes a lot
of fear to a lot of people because if you
have built your career and your last three promotions have
(21:11):
come via some connection to systems of nepotism that have
allowed you to grow and develop, and now I'm saying
we're actually going.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
To change that.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
We're going to focus on inclusive hiring measures where we
have a diverse slate of talent. We're going to position
diversity in our interview panels, and by the way, we're
going to think about inclusive succession planning and how we develop,
advance and promote talent. This causes fear with folks where
they end up resisting the future state approach. It's not
that they actually have a problem with understanding the car
(21:42):
tours of diversity and what elements of identity is. There
is a fear that if you change the system so
much that I have been a beneficiary of, I now
have no clue what approaches to advancement and development might
actually look like. And so well, I don't believe that
it has to be the role of death.
Speaker 4 (22:02):
Do I think it's difficult?
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Absolutely? Do I think DEI leaders really have to focus
on the protection of our own mental health and well being,
and organizations need to prioritize resourcing to support us absolutely,
because the reality is George Floyd's murder was such a
big moment that organizations basically starting to position the chief Diversity,
(22:24):
Equity and Inclusion Officer and essentially a public affairs type role.
You got cdios right now having to be the voice
of response when there's an earthquake in Turkey, when there's
violence in the form of war between Russia and the Ukraine,
when there's continued conflict between Israel and power sign with
literally every shooting and experience of gun violence in this country,
(22:48):
the CDIO is now looked at as the voice of
reason and rationality.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
There. That is such a shift.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
In dynamic to where now this leader is playing a
role of government and public affairs without the accountability, responsibility,
or the authority to actually make.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
GPA based decisions.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
They are having to opine on global sustainability based topics
without being an expert in spaces of climate change. They
are having to navigate conversations about social and community impact
without overseeing the multi million dollar budgets that are used
to be spent in these spaces for organizations to be successful,
you have to understand the significant amount of work that's
(23:29):
being put on. These leaders exhibit the grace with understanding, No,
they will not create solutions in three years that resolves
something that you have built over the last fifty seventy
five and one hundred years in many of these companies.
And so we have to understand how do we give
the same rigor and intentionality to social innovation with diversity,
(23:50):
equity and inclusion that we do with product innovation When
we're developing that new app, piece of footwear or a
pail based product.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
You tie THEI efforts because they can't just be tied
to you know, this the right thing to do? How
do you tie it to actual value and business goals?
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Yeah, you know there's a few things I think on
the ethical argument for diversity, though, this right thing to do,
this so called moral imperative. I don't think we can
overlook that too much because a lot of organizations try
to move so clearly to the business case, and when
you do that, you lose sight of the fact that, like,
there's a whole bunch of sociological, anthropological and psychological impact
(24:31):
and implication that got us to where we are today.
I need you to understand how periods and and development
enslavement impact it. Jim Crow laws and policies which now
impact how black communities show up each and every day,
and particularly in the workplace. I need you to understand
how the media is representation and raffine of certain stereotypes
(24:52):
that impact underrepresented communities all come from the history of
our experience. So we can't overlook that moral imperative because
I argue, will it is the right thing to do,
because we are better not saying we are better as
people than another group. I'm saying, as humanity, we are
(25:13):
better than the systems, tools, resources, and processes that we
have chosen to accept that continue to put some communities
out of the ability to equitably engage in society. We
as humanity are better than the tactics and strategies being
deployed by the current state of the criminal justice system.
This is a topic that we've known for years that
(25:35):
continues to have such far reaching impacts and implications not
just on black and brown bodies, but black families, black men,
black women, so on and so forth. We are better
than that, and so we have to resolve that and
so a lot of companies then turn to the business
case for diversity.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
I will tell you well, I was very proud women
get see.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
A company release the studies around this work in twenty
fifteen and corroborated it into twenty seventeen and twenty eighteen,
and then Deloitte and BCG added some additional imminence connected
to it. However, the one critique that I've always positioned
around the business case so called for diversity, equity and
inclusion is that it considers this work in such a
deeply aggregated nature that it doesn't force organizations to understand
(26:19):
how their own history continues to contribute to the negative
impacts and implications of the work. The business case in
many ways would lead organizations to believe that if you
certainly hire or position black and brown bodies in certain roles,
you're immediately going to see this thirty five percent greater
likelihood of financial outperformance.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
And that's not the.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Reality of the case. If your organization has not done
the work to shift your culture or the climate within
your organization, this talent that you've put in role will
not be set up for success. They will continue to
be pushing up against a cement ceiling that has always
been positioned against them. And then when you don't achieve
those great business results that have been highlighted by the study,
(27:02):
you can now not hold yourself accountable but rather blame
shift to put it on that individual. And so will
to answer your question directly, how then do we tie
this to business goals? Goal setting is absolutely critical. Employees
care about four main things in the workplace transparency, visibility, accountability,
(27:24):
and belonging. I am a huge fan of the idea
of consequential accountability. This is the idea that we as
an organization have set a goal or a target that
we want to achieve and there are consequences connected to it,
not through the lens of blame, but through the lens
of accountability. So, when we choose to tie executive compensation,
for example, to growth and representation goals, or commitment to
(27:46):
DEE education or advancement to community and social impact policies.
In addition to that, when we set these goals, it
needs to be specific enough in such a way that
even if we put position and growth opportunities for representation,
in particular for growth of women, in the growth of
communities of color, how are we digging into that concept
(28:08):
of intersectionality to make sure that our women numbers are
not just growing because of elevation and promotion of white women,
and that our people of color are underrepresented numbers aren't
just growing because of the hiring and development of new
black or Asian engineers. Rather, how do we understand both
through pay equity, through core experience, through education, development and
(28:29):
community that we're solving for those intersections of identity along
the way that we're providing experience and pull surveys to
understand that impact and that DEI has a place not
just on the team and talent strategy for an HR
or people in culture organization, but that it is positioned
right on that corporate strategy for the organization. That's how
(28:50):
you drive results. Will if every strategy coming out of
DEI can tie back in some way to the core
goals that the business is looking to drive from a
strategy and operations perspective, That's where impact is created. And
that is why I often highlight and lecture and serience
that I do. I'm a business leader. It just happens
(29:11):
to be that my field of practice is helping organizations
realize their fullest social and economic potential through the lens
and advocacy of DEI.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
You know one thing we haven't discussed here that I've
got you for a few more minutes, and I want
to talk about this concept of supplier diversity, right. Yeah,
So one thing many companies lean on as an excuse is,
you know, black owned companies don't have the capacity, particularly corporations.
You know, larger small businesses lean on that, yep. And
how can they instead help smaller companies black owned companies
(29:46):
build capacity versus count them out?
Speaker 3 (29:49):
It is so necessary, you know, the supplier diversity space.
It has been around a really long time. In fact,
work around supplier diversity has been around longer than a
lot of the core team and talent strategies that we know,
like the Rooney Ruler, the diverse later proch on the
team and talent side. And so there's a number of learnings,
especially from folks who I would consider absolute maven's in
the space, like McDonald's, like University of Chicago, who continue
(30:13):
to do such amazing industry leading work in this space.
But you're right, will so many companies argue, well, in
a competitive process of an R ANDP, we're just not
finding enough black owned businesses that can support this work,
and so you end up giving us the small contracts
for things like minimal food service, occasionally bringing us in
to do some content creation and marketing or videography work,
(30:35):
where the big contracts are going to major technology suppliers,
major marketing suppliers. For organizations to be successful, they have
to move beyond the programmatic and truly go to the systemic.
The programmatic is to say we're going to go out
and create this list of underrepresented suppliers and hopefully they
lay in we're going to try to position these black
(30:57):
small businesses into these smaller areas within our company or organization. Rather,
we should be finding ways to help them grow to
scale and through the lens of sustainability, help them understand
what results in a successful RP.
Speaker 4 (31:11):
Within your organization.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
Help them by positioning some of the smaller entities within
your company or organization to be successful. For example, if
we think about the footwear industry, while a vendor may
not yet be perfect for Nike eight, could they do
work to support the converse brand to understand the infrastructure
around the organization but build from there. While an organization
may not be fully equipped for example, to support a
(31:36):
large retailer, could they work on one aspect of the
merchandising space. That way they're knee deep in the ecosystem
and growing and developing. And then what's more, how are
companies actually investing money into ensuring that these businesses can
grow by providing them core skills on how to effectively
run a business. When you think about some of the
(31:57):
major I'll even say Fortune one hundred companies, will they
have some of the best communications teams, operations teams, supply
chain teams, merchandising teams.
Speaker 4 (32:07):
What would it look like to.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Have those leaders and their teams extend pro bono support
and engagement with these organizations to ensure that their business
model is air tight so that when they come to
you a year from then with an RFP, they're not
only competitive in the process, but we know how they
grow at a scale. If your organization is focused on
the impact that you're having in terms of carbon reduction,
(32:30):
for example, to drive towards applimate change goals, make sure
that you're equipping these folks with the knowledge upfront so
that they're aligning their own approach to global sustainability with
that that you have as an organization, and finally, we'll
align to the same previous question that you asked around
goal setting. We have got to set targets around supplier diversity,
(32:51):
but I want to see disaggregated targets because a lot
of companies will set one billion dollar targets five billion
dollar targets over the course of a couple of years.
If you dig into it, the majority of those funds
are going to term women owned businesses, which is absolutely incredible.
We do need to be investing even more significantly in
women owned businesses, and in veteran owned businesses, and in
(33:12):
underrepresented owned businesses. However, if we're not considering if ninety
percent of those women owned businesses are owned by white women,
and that none of the funding is being distributed or
allocated to support Black women, Latino women, Native women, are
First Nations women, or API women, we have not done
our job effectively. We're giving ourselves a pattern the ba
(33:33):
for what is arguably a participation trophy to make us
feel good or better about what we're doing. It's often
argued that disaggregation of data helps us to make more
intentional and deliberate and accurate decision making, and so I
implore organizations disaggregate it, hold yourselves accountable, and enable your consumers, vendors,
(33:55):
and stakeholders to be a part of that journey.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
With you in the matter of respecting DEI expertise. Right, So,
if I'm a business and I'm looking for a DEI person,
how do I know that this person can actually do
the job effectively one? And how can I be a
respected DEI leader?
Speaker 3 (34:15):
I think on the first front, well, this is show
topic ho you know. Following George Fwitz Murder, I saw
a lot of organizations either go out to the marketplace
to find DEI leaders, and I found others elevate leaders
within their organization. Some elevated leaders that had a great
experience in the space or at least knew some effort
around how to drive great progress in the war. Others
(34:39):
elevated leaders who simply had a passion for it. It
is unfair to those leaders, you know, when I think
about other functions within an organization, As I said, to
drive DEI effectively, we must think about it and connects
to our business strategy and business operations. In no other
function would we ever take a leader and just position
(35:01):
them in a role based off an element of identity
and passion. Will I actually really like product development? I
almost failed out of art class in eighth grade. I
can't draw, And so my passion for design and product development.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
Does not mean that I could go and become a chief.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Design officer at a Fortune five hundred company. And so
the fact that we have taken in some cases it's
very lackadaisical approach around just placing a talent in role.
It's unfair to the organization. It's unfair to all equity
serving communities that are part of that engagement.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
With the organization.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
And it's unfair to that person because when they step
into the role and they are unable to be successful
because they've never driven approaches that actually foster systemic change
in this arena, we still point the finger at them
because the accountability exists within them. All the other leaders
will have absolved themselves of their own accountability and how
(35:58):
they drive progress in the space, and so.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
That leader is ultimately unsuccessful.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
And so for businesses, I highly encourage them think about
what engagement and partnerships, for example, what firms like mine
might look like with the rainbow disruption, we can help
that great DEI leaders for and with you, as well
as help to establish the infrastructure that's necessary as you
build your own strategy and operating model around engagement in
this space.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
The whole goal is we need to be doing.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
This work to drive longer term sustainability and to ensure
that we're creating measurable and monitorable frameworks to do the
work even more effectively. And so organizations have to make
sure that they are prioritizing both experience and knowledge in
the space even more than passion and lived experience is
(36:46):
critical though I see a lot of organizations promoting and
elevating folks who do not speak from the community or
do not speak from the eye of experience, and that's tough.
It does not mean that these folks cannot as allies,
advocate or access activists for.
Speaker 4 (37:03):
The communities that are there.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
But unfortunately, the black experience is one that is so
unique in the United States and in various spaces. There's
various parts of Western Europe, certainly South Africa, and so
we need folks in these roles that can actually speak
to those experiences, that understand what it means to be
at the margin of experiences of racial minoritized status, to
(37:25):
be able to actually impact change on the flip side
for DEI leaders. Will I get the question a lot
in my LinkedIn inbox, And when I do lectures at
universities of a number of college students who are like
I want to go into the DEI space. And I
think part of it is rooted in gen Z and
jen ALPA's strong knowledge connection and commitment to overcoming systems
(37:48):
of oppression and resolving things like institutional and structural racism.
And yet in most cases I tell them, don't do
it immediately out of college. I think there is something
so critical about getting experiences outside of this space, whether
it's in HR directly, in marketing and product roles, in
finance and sales. There is something so critical about learning
(38:13):
foundations and fundamentals of how businesses run and operate so
that when you do step into the DEI role, you
can be effective and you can drive great work in progress.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
Now I get it.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
Well, that may sound a bit counter productive or counterintuitive
to exactly what I just argue, this idea that you
need to be hiring experienced professionals. My recommendation is entered
organization and do a role in a different function for
two to three years, and then step in as a coordinator,
as a specialist, as a junior manager to learn the
(38:46):
framework and understanding of the space.
Speaker 4 (38:48):
Read the text from.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
Leaders that are driving thought leadership and engagement here, follow
the right folks on Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn that are
positioning thought leadership on this topic, and then parlay that
into a growth and development opportunity in the space. Furthermore, though,
I highly encourage my peers and colleagues in the space
that are chief diversity officers or DEI leaders, continue to
(39:12):
grow in your own practice like keep yourself sharp. I
talk to a lot of DEI leaders that at times
I feel like they may rest on their lawrels of
their experience from doing this work so well and for
so many years. The reality though will is times were
changing so significantly, and as gen Z and Janalpa are
very actively and rapidly entering the workforce, expectations are different.
(39:36):
There are many DEI practitions who have not had to
navigate this construct of identity, for example around pronoun utilization
and understanding how to create inclusive spaces for transgendering non
binary communities. They have not had to navigate conversations around
neurodiversity and neurodivergence. They have not had to navigate effective
accommodations for individuals with disabilities.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
We all have to continue to row in.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
Our own countenances, to be sharp, to be effective, and
to grow this work even more while also ensuring to
protect our own well being.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Black Tech Green Money is a production of Blavity, afro
Tech on the Black Effect Podcast Network and I Hire Media,
and it's produced by Morgan Debond and me Well Lucas,
with additional production support by Sarah Ergin and Rose McLucas.
Special thank you to Michael Davis sivin That's a Serrano.
Learn more about my guests and other tech this refors
and innovators at afrotech dot com joining Black Tech Green Money.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Share this with somebody, go get your money, peace and love.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Check me out at the annual Black Effect Podcast Festival
happening Saturday, April twenty seventh in Atlanta. Live podcasts are
on deck from some favorite shows, including this one, Black
Tech Green Money, and also some of the best podcasts
in the game, like Deeply Well with Debbie Brown and
Carefully Reckless. Atlanta is one of my favorite cities in
the world.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
I lived there for two years.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Actually, in my worldview, seeing us successful in every industry
and not having any limits on our potential largely was
shaved by Atlanta. So to be there with you doing
this podcast talking about how we build or leverage technology
to build wealth. Come on, man, doesn't get better. I
want to see you there. Get your tickets today at
black effect dot comback Slash Podcast Festival
Host
Will Lucas
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