Ep. 206 Justin Grant is a Corporate Executive and Author of Company Men, A Wellness Guide for Black Men in Corporate America - which is out now. In this conversation, we explore how Black men (and women for that matter) can leverage their corporate careers to build generational wealth and how mandates like full return-to-office policies impact Black professionals.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
I'm with Lucas and this is Black Tech, Green Money.
Justin Grant is a corporate executive and author of Company Men,
A Wellness Guy for Black Men in Corporate America, which
is out now. In this conversation, we explore how black
men and women for that matter, can leverage their corporate
careers to build generational wealth in how mandates like return
(00:22):
to office policies impact black professionals. I'm really interested in
your take on this because we often talk about in
our community how I've heard women's had a lot that
they may have hit a glass ceiling and they couldn't
go any further and they may not even have known it.
How do you know, if you're a black professional, that
you've hit a glass ceiling.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
That's a very good question, and you know, it's one
that I think about from time to time. You know,
it can be a point of continued frustration when you're
trying to climb the ladder. You're trying to attain a
certain type of position. You know, you see that you
have the qualifications, you see that you meet the criteria,
(01:04):
that you have the connections and the expertise, but for
whatever reason, you're not getting those opportunities to climb to
the next level, and that it really all boils down
to just getting the opportunity. Because one of the things
that I have realized in my career, and you know,
I've been blessed to have served as an advisor to
(01:24):
CEOs at major corporations, I've held senior level roles, and
you realize that the people that are across from you
or above you on the corporate ladder are not more
extraordinary than you. They were just given an opportunity. And
I think that's what it all boils down to. But
to recognize, you know, whether or not you've hit that ceiling.
(01:48):
I mean, have you been passed over for an opportunity?
Have you raised your hand for something that you believe
could help expand your career and you weren't given an opportunity.
Do you find yourself in positions where you're not being
given an opportunity to stretch beyond what your capabilities are,
because that's how you grow in being put in those
(02:10):
positions where you're challenged to work beyond what it was
that you were capable of. You know, you don't You're
not going to be able to achieve greatness if you
don't get the chance to attempt greatness and so but
recognizing if I've been passed over for jobs and I've gone.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Through this in my career, where you know, an.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Opportunity opens up, maybe a senior leader leaves a role
and the leader that you reported into, and you're like, hey,
wait a second, you know, I know how this is done.
I basically built this particular program, put me in coach,
let me, let me get the opportunity.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
I'm ready to be Mike. I don't want to be
Scotty anymore.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
And if you get passed over, then you know, recognize
that you might have hit a ceiling in that current
corporate environment. It might be time to find a new team.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
I like what you said about, you know, sometimes being
challenged to and I think about it in the way,
like you know, to use your sports analogy. They're like,
if you if your coach is not on you, like
you know, pushing down, like he may have just or
she may have just like dismissed, like Okay, that kid's
not going anywhere. But if your coach is like on you,
(03:19):
like yo, will yo justin I need more out of you,
they probably see something that has yet to been you know,
brought to the surface.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
What would you say to that, I.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Mean absolutely, you know, I think if a leader is
you know, challenging you in that way, I would say,
You're blessed to be reporting into a good leader. You're
blessed to be reporting into somebody who cares about developing talent.
You know, not everybody who winds up in that managerial
seat is necessarily a good manager, because a good manager
(03:56):
is focused on helping the talent that reports into them
maximize their career. They're focused on helping that talent expand
their capabilities so that you, as a leader, can even
grow out of your job and do other big things.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So, folks that are really good at leadership in a
corporate setting are those that are willing to and excited about,
you know, giving talent an opportunity to grow and develop.
And I manage you know, VP level talent. I've managed
VP level talent in my career, and you know, it's
(04:35):
it's been rewarding for me to be able to give
somebody a blank canvas so that they can grow and
they can develop. It actually makes my life easier, right,
I don't want to manage somebody who I have to
tell them ABC and D, this is how the job
is done.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Like, I'd like to be able to give folks room
to be creative. And the reality is.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
That's the height of this human existence, right when we
get that opportunity to create and to tap into things
that we didn't know that you know.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Were possible for us.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
So, when you're working for a manager that allows you
to do that, I think you're in a very good spot.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
And if you're dealing with somebody who does not care.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
About developing your talent, you know, you have to seek
out those opportunities yourself. You know, you have to seek
out professional development opportunities. You might have to seek out
opportunities to.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Take on volunteer or stretch assignments.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
You have to get creative in your career if you
find yourself in a place where you're reporting into somebody
that doesn't care about developing your talent, because ultimately, you
got to be the CEO of your own career.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Yeah, that's right. Why is it critical to have both
a mentor and a sponsor? Actually talk about what the
difference between a mentor and a sponsor is, and then
like why is it critical crucial to have both?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
I love that distinction, because an executive sponsor is not
a mentor.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Those are two entirely different roles. So a mentor, you know,
And I think back to when I was early on
in my career, my first job.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I was working for major international news organization, and I'd
literally gone from being the editor of a college newspaper
to now covering financial markets for you know, a major
wire service. And I needed somebody in that newsroom who
could help me to understand how to do the job well.
(06:30):
I needed somebody who I could figure out how do
I pattern, like, pattern my game after this person a
little bit and learn the nuances of what it took
to be successful in that particular line of work. You know,
we all need somebody to model ourselves after, you know,
That's that's how we learn. A lot of times you
see somebody and then you attempt.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
What it is that they're doing.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
And so this was a gentleman that you know, he
allowed me. I was stuck covering a particular beat around
the initial public offering market. I didn't know anything about IPOs,
and if you're not familiar with what an IPO is,
that's when a company decides to go public, they sell
shares in themselves so that they can raise money. And
(07:14):
I had to write about, you know, the hot IPOs.
I didn't know anything about this, so I cultivated the
guy who previously had that job to kind of teach
me the ins and outs of that role.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
I studied his file, he let me bounce ideas off
of him.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
He became a mentor for me in that room, and
as a black man, I also.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Have to bring up this distinction as well.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
There was another brother who worked at that company I need,
so that was the professional mentor.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
But I was trying to find my comfort.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Zone as a black male in that predominantly white newsroom.
And you know, when you're young and inexperienced, you know,
those nuances socially can be a little bit challenging.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
And I found an older brother at that firm.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
He was part of our black business resource group, and
he helped me to just feel comfortable from a social
standpoint in the firm, because you cannot do your best
work if you don't feel psychologically safe, and if you
don't feel psychologically safe, you're not really gonna last. And
somebody who can help you to cultivate that can be
(08:18):
a big help. So those are the types of mentors
I've had, and I've gone on to have other types
of mentors. I think when you start a new job,
it's important to have somebody in there that can mentor
you in the ways of that particular company. But I
love that you brought up the question and the distinction
of mentorship versus sponsorship, because the only way you're gonna
(08:41):
get those promotions, the only way you're gonna climb the ladder,
is if you have an executive sponsor who has your back.
An executive sponsor is somebody who they're in a senior
level seat. They have political capital within their company, and
folks that are at that level they're incentivized to try
(09:01):
and you know, develop some.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Proteges, right.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
You know, it helps their political capital if they identify
the next hot shot that can come in and kill it, right,
That lets that leader be seen as somebody that should
be doing even bigger things in the company.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
You're just doing this because they care.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
No, it's not just out of the goodness of their heart.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
You know, if you're if you're an executive and you
sponsor the wrong person that could diminish you, like you
put this person on, are you kidding me, you know,
and so definitely there's an incentive now there are nuances
for black talent.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
I've had three executive.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Sponsors in my career will all three were white men,
and I will always be grateful to them. And this
is the other challenge, you know, and doing research for
my book, one of the most unfortunate things that I
discovered is that sometimes black executive don't want to sponsor
black talent out of fear of seeming like they're just trying.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
To, you know, put other black people on.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
That's a challenge and so you know, I'm issuing a
challenge to leaders out there, particularly in this environment, you know,
where we seem to be going the other way.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
On inclusion, Like, you know, don't be.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Shy about sponsoring somebody that is a person from a
marginalized population, you know. But to cultivate that, you have
to be a superstar at your job. And I don't
care what your race is, I don't care what your
gender is. If you want an executive sponsor, you got
to be good at what you do. The other thing
that you have to do is you have to cultivate relationships.
(10:40):
You have to make friends in high places, and you
got to be bold about this, right, Squeaky wheel gets
the oil. You know, don't be afraid to grab coffee
with people, don't be afraid to ask people out to
lunch and see what the vibe is with the particular leader.
And if the vibe is there, you know, then you
(11:01):
start to cultivate that relationship.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
And if the vibe is not, you keep it moving.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
But you're never gonna get ahead without an executive sponsor.
And my challenge to people of color who work in
these environments is, you know, you can't just sit back
and expect that.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
To fall in your lap.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Sometimes environments sometimes you fall on good soil and sometimes
you don't.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
And I get it, and.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Maybe you're in an environment where it's not possible. But
if you're in a place that you feel comfortable, I
think it's important to cultivate sponsorship. And the other thing, too,
Will is there's three types of friends I think everyone
needs to have in corporate America.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
So you definitely need to have friends.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
And I'm using the word for and intentionally, but this
is really about networking. And I have a whole chapter
on the secrets to networking the right way, but you
got to have three types of friends.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
It's part of that network, right, You got to network
with people on your level, your peers. Iron sharpens iron. Right,
You're always you're always.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Competing with folks at your level, whether you know it
or not. In corporate America, they might be your friend,
but you're at the same level. This competition for the
select few promotions that are gonna go out or bonus
pool money and they deciding.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Who gets the biggest share.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
There's always competition, but definitely you want to have friends
within that network that's at your level. The second type
of friend that you got to have is you got
to mentor. You gotta be a mentor to somebody else.
Even if you're an entry level employee, you need to
be mentoring somebody that's about to graduate and going to
corporate America.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
Because when you serve as a mentor.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
To somebody, it's another way of holding yourself accountable. I'm
not gonna be worthy of being seen as a mentor
by somebody if I don't have my thing together, if
I'm not worthy of being their mentor.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
So it's a way of keeping yourself sharp.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
That person that you're mentoring is going to hold you
account and then the third type of friend. It gets
back to your question around sponsorship. The third type of
friend you want to have when you work in corporate America.
You want your boss's peers in other departments to know
who you are and to be in your network and
to be folks that will when your name comes up
(13:20):
when they're deciding who to promote or who to you know,
give the bigger bonus to.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
Yeah, I know that I know that person. Yeah, I
vouch for them. So you know, I think that's the distinction.
And it's not easy. I don't think it's easy for anybody,
whether you're black, white, or whatever. But there's a nuance
to it for black talent.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
And that's how I think about that distinction between mentorship
and sponsorship.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
How do you know when it's time to leave a
job versus when they just stay and fight?
Speaker 3 (13:51):
So I love that question as well, man.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
And it's almost like you read the book, because I
have a whole chapter called knowing when to stand on
your convictions and know when uh to leave, when to
when to let go? And in terms of you know,
leaving a job, first of all, if you've been at
the same level for three years, you're underpaid, like if
(14:15):
you've been doing that same job for three years and
you you're you're under even if you've been getting the
regular standard you know, raises three percent of whatever it is,
you're probably underpaid. You got to test your market value
and whether that's internal external, whether.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
You work at a large firm. So you know, in
the NBA, I'm a die hard NBA fan.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
They the contracts are up every three or four years,
they become a free agent, they move on to get
the payday. You gotta think of yourself like that. You gotta,
you know, don't be shy about testing your market value.
Don't be shy about interviewing as well, to just keep
your ear to the street, to to sharpen your ability
to tell your story about who you are in your career.
(14:58):
So so definitely, you know, around three years if you're not,
I think three years is you know, a long enough
time around knowing whether or not you should leave a job.
The other thing that you got to be careful of
if you sit in a job too long is obsolescence.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Brother, you don't want to obsolete yourself.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
You have to you know, we have these these phones,
these devices, and they're continually making.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
You download the new software periodically.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
We got to be downloaded, right, We need new knowledge,
and you know you learn by putting yourself in positions
where you're going to be challenged. You know, after I've
been in a job for about three years, I'm saying
to myself, how else can I make a contribution? And
even if you stay in the same company, how else
can you make a contribution to that particular company.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
You know, you don't want to type cast yourself. And
the other piece, too, will is life.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Is too long to sit there and just do the
same job over and over again. The years of folks,
you know, working for a company for twenty five years
doing the same job.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
That's over man.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
You know, companies, whether you realize it or not, the
ground is always shifting beneath our feet, and you know
you put yourself at risk. There's always got to be reorcs,
this mass layoffs, and you know you can't be too comfortable.
I think the comfort zone could be a very dangerous place.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Brother.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
You know, there's I'm sure you might have seen the
Jamie Diamond talks about getting back into office, you know,
the whole rant he went on about. You know, folks
at JP Morgan Chase, need to get back in the office,
et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
Center.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
So I'm interested in your take on this because I
was talking to some very prominent black entrepreneurs and vcs
recently and they were talking about why we do need
to go back to the office, and it was because
from their perspective, particularly Black people need that face time.
Is when you're on Zoom or you're on WebEx or
(16:58):
whatever you're using, like, you missed opportunity to build those
relationships that you trip over when you're in the office,
and so so many folks on the other side of
the like, but there's other parts of my life that
make me able to do this job because I'm either
hybrid or I don't even live in the same place
that my employer is, you know, located or whatever. So
(17:18):
I'm just interested in your take on this, this wave
going back to return to office. There's some people still
holding on to, you know, this hybrid or remote work foundation.
But I'm interested in how you see this playing out
for us, particularly black entrepreneurs creatives.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
So, on the one hand, I have seen commentaries around
how black people benefited in some respects from being able
to work remotely, because you know, there was a sense
of all right, I'm not dealing with microaggressions or you know,
I'm not dealing with some of the uncomfortable social aspects
(17:58):
that can happen to a person of color, you know,
working in an office setting. But but honestly, man, I
think we got to put fear aside, right, you know,
there's certain aspects of life. We're just going We've been
dealt certain cards, and we have to play those.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Cards, you know, as best we can.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
And you know, my perspective is, and I'm a creative guy, right,
I get energy off of being able to connect with
other people and bounce ideas off.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Of other people.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
You know, I've done some of my best work from
a creative standpoint when I've been when I've been able
to be in a room.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
You see me in front of a white boar. You know,
let's go in there, let's white boar.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Let's you know, so I understand the logic behind let's
get people back in the office and let's you know,
get to work. I think people like flexibility in their lives,
you know. I think, you know, we've a lot of
people have been working a certain way over a five
year period.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
But I'm not mad at the idea that you know,
people need to.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Be together, right, human beings, we are social animals, right,
We're made to be together.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
That's what a magic happens, right.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
You know, I struggle with sitting on zooms all day,
you know, being I remember that year when the pandemic happened.
I was It felt like I was chained to my computer,
like your house was a prison. Because you wake up
and it's the minute you open that laptop, you're at work,
and then you close it. It's just like you're always
at work, you know, working like that. And you know,
(19:29):
I'm a big fan of getting out of.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
The house, putting on some nice clothes. You need a
reason to shave.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
I'm going to the barb to get the spirit ass
up tomorrow because I got more in office meetings, you know,
I like that interaction for people who work remote, I'm
a big proponent of you know, have you ever been
to the industrious co working space? You know, this is
like free advertising for them, but I think it's a
wonderful space because even if you don't work with other people,
(19:57):
you're around other human beings. Is an energy that's flowing,
and I think that from a creative standpoint, we suffer
when you know, folks are not in settings together. That's
that's my perspective. I think people don't like feeling forced
into things.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
You know, I don't. I don't think people like to.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Feel as if, you know, there's some overseer that's controlling
their lives. So I get, you know, uh, where folks
that are the detractors are coming from. But definitely I
understand what those creatives are saying. I understand what the
CEOs are saying that, you know, human beings, we benefit
from being around each other. And then the other piece
will is our economy benefits from folks being out of
(20:40):
the out of the house, right. You know, we we've
been in a big commercial real estate drought for a
long time now. You know, I'm in the New York
metropolitan area. A lot of businesses have suffered. I used
to love Roast Kitchen. That's where I went to grab
lunch from time to time. They went out of business,
So businesses have suffered. You know, I think it's better that,
you know, we get up and we get out and
(21:03):
get together again.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
You know, I want to talk a little bit about
like how we manage ourselves from you know, that's the
foundational levels like sleep, diet, exercise, and being corporate athletes
in a way, how do we manage how do you
recommend we manage ourselves so that we can bring that
a game.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
So the best investment that we can ever make, the
best investment that we will ever make, it's in ourselves, and.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
That starts with our body.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
We are a body, you know, and you know in
my book I talk about black men in particular, we
have the second lost life expectancy of any demographic in
this country. The only people who are living shorter lives
are are brothers from the Alaska Native American population. And
(21:56):
you know a lot of us we hit the gym,
we work out, but we don't go to the doctor.
You know, the stresses of corporate life. Because we are
black men, they might hit our bodies a little bit
differently than they hit other people's bodies. You know, we're
more likely to have hypertension and you know, heart disease
(22:18):
and certain types of ailments. I think it all starts
with you got to go to the doctor. And I'm employing.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Brothers, you know, to go.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I've lost a couple of industry colleagues. The brother that
I worked with, he died at the age of forty
five of a heart ailment this past January. Another brother
that I work for, he works that I know, He
works for an NBA team and suffered a massive stroke.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
He's not even forty years old yet. You know.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
In my book Company Men, I interview brothers who they
talk about the effects of stress on their bodies. And
you know, one brother I interviewed, he was working on
a campaign and it didn't go well, and it.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
Caused his company to lose a billion dollars in sales.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
He goes to the doctor, you know, during that time,
and the doctor says, brother, you can't live with your
blood pressure is high.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
And then he gets fired from the job.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
And then his blood pressure normalizes, you know, right after
he gets fired.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
So we have to recognize that there is.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
A certain level of stress that comes from working in
corporate America. But we got to stay on top of
our bodies. Step number one is going to the doctor.
Step number two is the type of food that we're
putting in our bodies.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
There's a lot of garbage out there. There's a lot of.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Easy to get, it's cheap, there's ads that are trying
to brainwash us to eat a lot of this garbage.
It feels good to eat some junk food after you've
had a stressful day, but you know, it's garbage in
and garbage out, and longevity for me has definitely become
a focus for black men because when we die at
our peak earning years, that's lost wealth that contributes to
(23:59):
the racial wealth. Get yeah, and I loved you brought
up that analogy. We have to train for this, like athletes,
you want that, you want that c sweet job, you
want to break through the glass ceiling, You're not going to.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Get there if you're sick. You know, they gonna give it.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
To the healthy people. So we got to take care
of ourselves and I will. I'm seeing too many brothers
between the ages like thirty five and fifty that are
suffering from stress related ailments that I think lifestyle choices
can help fix. And then we got to figure out
better mechanisms for dealing with stress as black men.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
You know, often when I talk to.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Corporate people or people who have.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Been in the corporate part of this versus entrepreneurs or investors,
I want to ask this question about generational wealth because
it is assumed that you can't build it with a job.
And I'd like you to touch on your view and
how because this podcast is for people whether they're in technology,
building technology, leveraging technology, and interested in wealth, how.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Do you build it with?
Speaker 1 (25:08):
You know the proverbial nine to five or you know,
when you're checking in and you're not the CEO, you're
not the owner, you're not the president.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah time, brother, right, you work in corporate America. You
can become a millionaire and you do it.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
It's four letters. It's not the most glamorous thing. Four
O one K. You know, and I have friends they trade,
and I all respect to that. But you always have.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
To be buying into the stock market every two weeks,
buying into that stock market.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
You know.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Number one, you got to build a budget. Understand what
you're spending on housing and some of the food and
the day to day expenses.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Build a budget. But you know, max out that four
to one k.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
And you know, one of the things that I stress
is set it and forget it, Set it and forget it.
Max that sucker out. And as you grow in your
career and you're making those six figure salaries, brother, you
can be in your forties and already a millionaire or
close to it if you're just disciplined about setting it
and forgetting it. And then also if you change jobs,
(26:17):
don't cast that thing out because there's major tax penalties
with that. Roll it into an IRA. So that's step
number one is build your four one K. Step number two,
if you're able to do this, build a solid cushion
of savings. And I'm talking like a year or two
of savings, like build a solid foundation of cash. And
(26:37):
then once you have cash now you can start to
get creative and start thinking about diversified income streams and
private equity and things like that.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
But for me, the baseline is you get that four
to one.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
K right, you manage your credit strategically, you know, all
right to live a little right like life is meant
to be enjoy. I want you to enjoy the gravy,
right that matters. But definitely you can build generational wealth.
You can build a multimillion dollar portfolio doing everything that
(27:11):
I just said.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
And also I'm a big proponent of get you some
real estate.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
If you're able to do that, I know we're in
the midst of an affordability crisis in our country, and
maybe you can't afford a house in your market, but
maybe you can buy an investment property somewhere else and
put some tenets in that and have them build an
equity for you. Every time they make that mortgage payment.
You can build a little bit of cash flow for yourself.
(27:36):
I'm a big proponent of house hacking as well. You
might buy a multifamily, you live in one, you ran
out the others, and those people are giving you cash flow,
and you're building.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Wealth through that equity. So that's how I tend to
think about it.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
You can be a corporate dude. It's not glamorous. You
don't have to be the CEO. You don't have to
be an entrepreneur. God bless odds. Everybody ain't built like that,
and that's okay. But you can get to millionaire status
doing everything I just talked about.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
You know, there's this push not every corporation, but there's
many corporations following suit with you know, this administration's pushed
towards removing DEI, dismantling those programs, and pressuring you know,
those many corporations to follow suit. How do you see
that impacting black folks ability to continue to climb the ladder.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
So I love that you asked this question. And I've
been reflecting a lot.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
We're still in Black History Month, and I've been reflecting
a lot on something Frederick Douglas said after emancipation. And
I'm gonna paraphrase because I don't remember the whole quote,
but I'm.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Gonna give me the spirit of what Frederick Douglas said.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
They basically asked him, mister Douglas, you know black people
have been emancipated. What should the government do with them?
What should the government do for them? And his response
was nothing, y'all have done enough.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Okay, we leave us to ourselves. Leave us be, let's
build ourselves up. And at this moment in time, you know,
we're in a.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Very volatile moment from a political standpoint globally right, and
you know, institutions are influx. And I think at this moment,
when all of our institutions are in flux and they're
figuring out how they want to deal with certain types
of things, I think now is the time for us
to just look inward. I think now's the time for
(29:37):
us to come together. You know, I'm going to be.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Building a company men community, and we're going to create
an open form on Zoom.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
We're gonna just bring brothers on, sisters, whoever, and we're
going to talk about these issues and we're going to
lift each other up. But right now, while all of that's,
you know, being debated, I think we got to look inward,
you know what I'm saying. And the other thing too
is John O'Brien. He said something very interesting. He was
on a podcast. I saw a clip the other day,
(30:06):
I don't remember which podcast. It was Cam Newton's podcast,
and asked him about Di and John O'Brien. He basically said, look,
you know, we're going to be a majority minority country
by twenty forty five. You look at black Hispanic Latino populations.
That's four point six trillion dollars in consumer spending alone, right,
(30:28):
And any company that wants to capture.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
That share, you know, right, four point six trillion.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Brother, that's bigger than the UK's economy, that's bigger than
Germany's economy, that's bigger than France.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
I mean, that's power.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
And I don't think any company in their right mind
wants to alienate those consumers.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
And I think, you know, if you want to capture
that dollar, you recognize that you.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Got to be able to market to those populations. And
you can't market to those populations if you don't understand
those relationships. You can't understand those populations if you don't
have the right level of representation in your company. So,
in spite of all of the rhetoric, you know, I'm
just looking at the numbers. You know, I live in data.
I've spent my career in financial services. What story is
(31:17):
the data telling us? And let's just follow what it says.
And it's a numbers game. And anybody who's against that,
we don't believe you. You need more people, you know.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
What I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Tell us about the book, Jess, where can we get it?
Is it out all of that?
Speaker 3 (31:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:33):
So, Company Men, A Wellness Guide for Black Men in
Corporate America is available at all major retailers, Amazon, Barnes,
and Noble, just to name two off the top of
my head. The audiobook is coming out on March eighteenth.
And you know the book I analyze. I interviewed dozens
of black men who work in corporate America, and I
(31:54):
chose One.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
Of my little cousins said, just why are you to
talk about the ladies?
Speaker 2 (31:58):
And I said, listen, I chose to focus on men
because this book is in large part autobiographical. It's also
dedicated to my uncle, the late Great Jan Simpson.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
He was forty eight when he died.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
He was the CFO for ethicn Endo Surgery, Inc. That
is one of Johnson and Johnson's surgical device makers.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
And you know, he was fit, he was the champion.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
And his death, you know, I've spent the last twenty
years trying to understand what was it that he was
going through as he climbed that ladder, because you know,
when he passed in two thousand and two, Corporate America
and the level he was at was even less diverse.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
Than it is now.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
And you know, I've dealt with the physical effects of
the stress.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
You know, before I learned healthy mechanisms for dealing with that,
I interviewed other brothers on.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
That, and then I realized, also the physical piece is
one thing, but like, what are the stressors that are
leading to you know, those stress related ailments. And so
I talk about, you know, how we have to repress
negative emotions and anger, and I get into the history
of the angry black man stereotype and why we feel
(33:07):
a need to charm and put people at ease because
society they see us as larger and more aggressive and.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
Hyper masculine.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Like these stereotypes, you know, they started in the Antebellum
period and they've infiltrated the American psyche and they affect
us today. They put our lives in danger when we're
dealing with police. Right, these issues still remain. So I
get into that piece. I talk about how do you
fit into corporate culture?
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Right?
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Because corporate culture is not about race, right, but everybody has.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
To assimilate into a company.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
But then there are some nuances to that that are
race specifics. So I get into the nuances of fitting
into corporate culture, and then a lot of the stuff
I talk about is universal. How do you deal with
layoffs and riorcs? How do you turn your wages into wealth?
Speaker 3 (34:00):
I do talk about, you know, in my.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Money chapter, not just how to grow wealth, but also
how do you negotiate salary.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
There is a racial pay gap in this country.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
But part of the reason for that is black talent
has lower expectations than their peers on what they should
be earning. And there are historical reasons for that. You know,
we've been shut out of certain rooms, we're shut out
of certain networks.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
But the only way to understand your worth is to
have your ear of the street and do that canvassing,
and so I do get into a lot of that.
Also thrivers guilt. How do you deal with family?
Speaker 2 (34:37):
They think you're balling, They asking for money, You're trying
to build a life.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
So all that stuff is in there, man.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
All of that justin Grahant, I appreciate you spending some
time with me. Go get the book company man so
ound now. Black Tech Green Money is a production of Blavity,
Afro Tech, The Black Effect podcast Networking Night Hire Media.
It's produced by Morgan Debonne and me Well Lucas. The
additional production support or by Kate McDonald s Ergan and
Jainia McGee. Special thank you to Michael Davis in Love
(35:04):
Beach to learn more about my guessing Other Tech the
stuff that's an Innovator's at afrotech dot com. Video version
this episode will drop to Black Tech Green Money on YouTube.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
So'll tap in.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Enjoy your Black Tech Green.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
Money, share us with somebody, Go.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Get your money.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
Peace in Love
I'm with Lucas and this is Black Tech, Green Money.
Justin Grant is a corporate executive and author of Company Men,
A Wellness Guy for Black Men in Corporate America, which
is out now. In this conversation, we explore how black
men and women for that matter, can leverage their corporate
careers to build generational wealth in how mandates like return
(00:22):
to office policies impact black professionals. I'm really interested in
your take on this because we often talk about in
our community how I've heard women's had a lot that
they may have hit a glass ceiling and they couldn't
go any further and they may not even have known it.
How do you know, if you're a black professional, that
you've hit a glass ceiling.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
That's a very good question, and you know, it's one
that I think about from time to time. You know,
it can be a point of continued frustration when you're
trying to climb the ladder. You're trying to attain a
certain type of position. You know, you see that you
have the qualifications, you see that you meet the criteria,
(01:04):
that you have the connections and the expertise, but for
whatever reason, you're not getting those opportunities to climb to
the next level, and that it really all boils down
to just getting the opportunity. Because one of the things
that I have realized in my career, and you know,
I've been blessed to have served as an advisor to
(01:24):
CEOs at major corporations, I've held senior level roles, and
you realize that the people that are across from you
or above you on the corporate ladder are not more
extraordinary than you. They were just given an opportunity. And
I think that's what it all boils down to. But
to recognize, you know, whether or not you've hit that ceiling.
(01:48):
I mean, have you been passed over for an opportunity?
Have you raised your hand for something that you believe
could help expand your career and you weren't given an opportunity.
Do you find yourself in positions where you're not being
given an opportunity to stretch beyond what your capabilities are,
because that's how you grow in being put in those
(02:10):
positions where you're challenged to work beyond what it was
that you were capable of. You know, you don't You're
not going to be able to achieve greatness if you
don't get the chance to attempt greatness and so but
recognizing if I've been passed over for jobs and I've gone.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Through this in my career, where you know, an.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Opportunity opens up, maybe a senior leader leaves a role
and the leader that you reported into, and you're like, hey,
wait a second, you know, I know how this is done.
I basically built this particular program, put me in coach,
let me, let me get the opportunity.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
I'm ready to be Mike. I don't want to be
Scotty anymore.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
And if you get passed over, then you know, recognize
that you might have hit a ceiling in that current
corporate environment. It might be time to find a new team.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
I like what you said about, you know, sometimes being
challenged to and I think about it in the way,
like you know, to use your sports analogy. They're like,
if you if your coach is not on you, like
you know, pushing down, like he may have just or
she may have just like dismissed, like Okay, that kid's
not going anywhere. But if your coach is like on you,
(03:19):
like yo, will yo justin I need more out of you,
they probably see something that has yet to been you know,
brought to the surface.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
What would you say to that, I.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Mean absolutely, you know, I think if a leader is
you know, challenging you in that way, I would say,
You're blessed to be reporting into a good leader. You're
blessed to be reporting into somebody who cares about developing talent.
You know, not everybody who winds up in that managerial
seat is necessarily a good manager, because a good manager
(03:56):
is focused on helping the talent that reports into them
maximize their career. They're focused on helping that talent expand
their capabilities so that you, as a leader, can even
grow out of your job and do other big things.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So, folks that are really good at leadership in a
corporate setting are those that are willing to and excited about,
you know, giving talent an opportunity to grow and develop.
And I manage you know, VP level talent. I've managed
VP level talent in my career, and you know, it's
(04:35):
it's been rewarding for me to be able to give
somebody a blank canvas so that they can grow and
they can develop. It actually makes my life easier, right,
I don't want to manage somebody who I have to
tell them ABC and D, this is how the job
is done.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Like, I'd like to be able to give folks room
to be creative. And the reality is.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
That's the height of this human existence, right when we
get that opportunity to create and to tap into things
that we didn't know that you know.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Were possible for us.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
So, when you're working for a manager that allows you
to do that, I think you're in a very good spot.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
And if you're dealing with somebody who does not care.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
About developing your talent, you know, you have to seek
out those opportunities yourself. You know, you have to seek
out professional development opportunities. You might have to seek out
opportunities to.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Take on volunteer or stretch assignments.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
You have to get creative in your career if you
find yourself in a place where you're reporting into somebody
that doesn't care about developing your talent, because ultimately, you
got to be the CEO of your own career.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Yeah, that's right. Why is it critical to have both
a mentor and a sponsor? Actually talk about what the
difference between a mentor and a sponsor is, and then
like why is it critical crucial to have both?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
I love that distinction, because an executive sponsor is not
a mentor.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Those are two entirely different roles. So a mentor, you know,
And I think back to when I was early on
in my career, my first job.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I was working for major international news organization, and I'd
literally gone from being the editor of a college newspaper
to now covering financial markets for you know, a major
wire service. And I needed somebody in that newsroom who
could help me to understand how to do the job well.
(06:30):
I needed somebody who I could figure out how do
I pattern, like, pattern my game after this person a
little bit and learn the nuances of what it took
to be successful in that particular line of work. You know,
we all need somebody to model ourselves after, you know,
That's that's how we learn. A lot of times you
see somebody and then you attempt.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
What it is that they're doing.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
And so this was a gentleman that you know, he
allowed me. I was stuck covering a particular beat around
the initial public offering market. I didn't know anything about IPOs,
and if you're not familiar with what an IPO is,
that's when a company decides to go public, they sell
shares in themselves so that they can raise money. And
(07:14):
I had to write about, you know, the hot IPOs.
I didn't know anything about this, so I cultivated the
guy who previously had that job to kind of teach
me the ins and outs of that role.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
I studied his file, he let me bounce ideas off
of him.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
He became a mentor for me in that room, and
as a black man, I also.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Have to bring up this distinction as well.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
There was another brother who worked at that company I need,
so that was the professional mentor.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
But I was trying to find my comfort.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Zone as a black male in that predominantly white newsroom.
And you know, when you're young and inexperienced, you know,
those nuances socially can be a little bit challenging.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
And I found an older brother at that firm.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
He was part of our black business resource group, and
he helped me to just feel comfortable from a social
standpoint in the firm, because you cannot do your best
work if you don't feel psychologically safe, and if you
don't feel psychologically safe, you're not really gonna last. And
somebody who can help you to cultivate that can be
(08:18):
a big help. So those are the types of mentors
I've had, and I've gone on to have other types
of mentors. I think when you start a new job,
it's important to have somebody in there that can mentor
you in the ways of that particular company. But I
love that you brought up the question and the distinction
of mentorship versus sponsorship, because the only way you're gonna
(08:41):
get those promotions, the only way you're gonna climb the ladder,
is if you have an executive sponsor who has your back.
An executive sponsor is somebody who they're in a senior
level seat. They have political capital within their company, and
folks that are at that level they're incentivized to try
(09:01):
and you know, develop some.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Proteges, right.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
You know, it helps their political capital if they identify
the next hot shot that can come in and kill it, right,
That lets that leader be seen as somebody that should
be doing even bigger things in the company.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
You're just doing this because they care.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
No, it's not just out of the goodness of their heart.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
You know, if you're if you're an executive and you
sponsor the wrong person that could diminish you, like you
put this person on, are you kidding me, you know,
and so definitely there's an incentive now there are nuances
for black talent.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
I've had three executive.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Sponsors in my career will all three were white men,
and I will always be grateful to them. And this
is the other challenge, you know, and doing research for
my book, one of the most unfortunate things that I
discovered is that sometimes black executive don't want to sponsor
black talent out of fear of seeming like they're just trying.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
To, you know, put other black people on.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
That's a challenge and so you know, I'm issuing a
challenge to leaders out there, particularly in this environment, you know,
where we seem to be going the other way.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
On inclusion, Like, you know, don't be.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Shy about sponsoring somebody that is a person from a
marginalized population, you know. But to cultivate that, you have
to be a superstar at your job. And I don't
care what your race is, I don't care what your
gender is. If you want an executive sponsor, you got
to be good at what you do. The other thing
that you have to do is you have to cultivate relationships.
(10:40):
You have to make friends in high places, and you
got to be bold about this, right, Squeaky wheel gets
the oil. You know, don't be afraid to grab coffee
with people, don't be afraid to ask people out to
lunch and see what the vibe is with the particular leader.
And if the vibe is there, you know, then you
(11:01):
start to cultivate that relationship.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
And if the vibe is not, you keep it moving.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
But you're never gonna get ahead without an executive sponsor.
And my challenge to people of color who work in
these environments is, you know, you can't just sit back
and expect that.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
To fall in your lap.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Sometimes environments sometimes you fall on good soil and sometimes
you don't.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
And I get it, and.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Maybe you're in an environment where it's not possible. But
if you're in a place that you feel comfortable, I
think it's important to cultivate sponsorship. And the other thing, too,
Will is there's three types of friends I think everyone
needs to have in corporate America.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
So you definitely need to have friends.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
And I'm using the word for and intentionally, but this
is really about networking. And I have a whole chapter
on the secrets to networking the right way, but you
got to have three types of friends.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
It's part of that network, right, You got to network
with people on your level, your peers. Iron sharpens iron. Right,
You're always you're always.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Competing with folks at your level, whether you know it
or not. In corporate America, they might be your friend,
but you're at the same level. This competition for the
select few promotions that are gonna go out or bonus
pool money and they deciding.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Who gets the biggest share.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
There's always competition, but definitely you want to have friends
within that network that's at your level. The second type
of friend that you got to have is you got
to mentor. You gotta be a mentor to somebody else.
Even if you're an entry level employee, you need to
be mentoring somebody that's about to graduate and going to
corporate America.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
Because when you serve as a mentor.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
To somebody, it's another way of holding yourself accountable. I'm
not gonna be worthy of being seen as a mentor
by somebody if I don't have my thing together, if
I'm not worthy of being their mentor.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
So it's a way of keeping yourself sharp.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
That person that you're mentoring is going to hold you
account and then the third type of friend. It gets
back to your question around sponsorship. The third type of
friend you want to have when you work in corporate America.
You want your boss's peers in other departments to know
who you are and to be in your network and
to be folks that will when your name comes up
(13:20):
when they're deciding who to promote or who to you know,
give the bigger bonus to.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
Yeah, I know that I know that person. Yeah, I
vouch for them. So you know, I think that's the distinction.
And it's not easy. I don't think it's easy for anybody,
whether you're black, white, or whatever. But there's a nuance
to it for black talent.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
And that's how I think about that distinction between mentorship
and sponsorship.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
How do you know when it's time to leave a
job versus when they just stay and fight?
Speaker 3 (13:51):
So I love that question as well, man.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
And it's almost like you read the book, because I
have a whole chapter called knowing when to stand on
your convictions and know when uh to leave, when to
when to let go? And in terms of you know,
leaving a job, first of all, if you've been at
the same level for three years, you're underpaid, like if
(14:15):
you've been doing that same job for three years and
you you're you're under even if you've been getting the
regular standard you know, raises three percent of whatever it is,
you're probably underpaid. You got to test your market value
and whether that's internal external, whether.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
You work at a large firm. So you know, in
the NBA, I'm a die hard NBA fan.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
They the contracts are up every three or four years,
they become a free agent, they move on to get
the payday. You gotta think of yourself like that. You gotta,
you know, don't be shy about testing your market value.
Don't be shy about interviewing as well, to just keep
your ear to the street, to to sharpen your ability
to tell your story about who you are in your career.
(14:58):
So so definitely, you know, around three years if you're not,
I think three years is you know, a long enough
time around knowing whether or not you should leave a job.
The other thing that you got to be careful of
if you sit in a job too long is obsolescence.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Brother, you don't want to obsolete yourself.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
You have to you know, we have these these phones,
these devices, and they're continually making.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
You download the new software periodically.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
We got to be downloaded, right, We need new knowledge,
and you know you learn by putting yourself in positions
where you're going to be challenged. You know, after I've
been in a job for about three years, I'm saying
to myself, how else can I make a contribution? And
even if you stay in the same company, how else
can you make a contribution to that particular company.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
You know, you don't want to type cast yourself. And
the other piece, too, will is life.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Is too long to sit there and just do the
same job over and over again. The years of folks,
you know, working for a company for twenty five years
doing the same job.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
That's over man.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
You know, companies, whether you realize it or not, the
ground is always shifting beneath our feet, and you know
you put yourself at risk. There's always got to be reorcs,
this mass layoffs, and you know you can't be too comfortable.
I think the comfort zone could be a very dangerous place.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Brother.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
You know, there's I'm sure you might have seen the
Jamie Diamond talks about getting back into office, you know,
the whole rant he went on about. You know, folks
at JP Morgan Chase, need to get back in the office,
et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
Center.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
So I'm interested in your take on this because I
was talking to some very prominent black entrepreneurs and vcs
recently and they were talking about why we do need
to go back to the office, and it was because
from their perspective, particularly Black people need that face time.
Is when you're on Zoom or you're on WebEx or
(16:58):
whatever you're using, like, you missed opportunity to build those
relationships that you trip over when you're in the office,
and so so many folks on the other side of
the like, but there's other parts of my life that
make me able to do this job because I'm either
hybrid or I don't even live in the same place
that my employer is, you know, located or whatever. So
(17:18):
I'm just interested in your take on this, this wave
going back to return to office. There's some people still
holding on to, you know, this hybrid or remote work foundation.
But I'm interested in how you see this playing out
for us, particularly black entrepreneurs creatives.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
So, on the one hand, I have seen commentaries around
how black people benefited in some respects from being able
to work remotely, because you know, there was a sense
of all right, I'm not dealing with microaggressions or you know,
I'm not dealing with some of the uncomfortable social aspects
(17:58):
that can happen to a person of color, you know,
working in an office setting. But but honestly, man, I
think we got to put fear aside, right, you know,
there's certain aspects of life. We're just going We've been
dealt certain cards, and we have to play those.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Cards, you know, as best we can.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
And you know, my perspective is, and I'm a creative guy, right,
I get energy off of being able to connect with
other people and bounce ideas off.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Of other people.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
You know, I've done some of my best work from
a creative standpoint when I've been when I've been able
to be in a room.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
You see me in front of a white boar. You know,
let's go in there, let's white boar.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Let's you know, so I understand the logic behind let's
get people back in the office and let's you know,
get to work. I think people like flexibility in their lives,
you know. I think, you know, we've a lot of
people have been working a certain way over a five
year period.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
But I'm not mad at the idea that you know,
people need to.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Be together, right, human beings, we are social animals, right,
We're made to be together.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
That's what a magic happens, right.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
You know, I struggle with sitting on zooms all day,
you know, being I remember that year when the pandemic happened.
I was It felt like I was chained to my computer,
like your house was a prison. Because you wake up
and it's the minute you open that laptop, you're at work,
and then you close it. It's just like you're always
at work, you know, working like that. And you know,
(19:29):
I'm a big fan of getting out of.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
The house, putting on some nice clothes. You need a
reason to shave.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
I'm going to the barb to get the spirit ass
up tomorrow because I got more in office meetings, you know,
I like that interaction for people who work remote, I'm
a big proponent of you know, have you ever been
to the industrious co working space? You know, this is
like free advertising for them, but I think it's a
wonderful space because even if you don't work with other people,
(19:57):
you're around other human beings. Is an energy that's flowing,
and I think that from a creative standpoint, we suffer
when you know, folks are not in settings together. That's
that's my perspective. I think people don't like feeling forced
into things.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
You know, I don't. I don't think people like to.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Feel as if, you know, there's some overseer that's controlling
their lives. So I get, you know, uh, where folks
that are the detractors are coming from. But definitely I
understand what those creatives are saying. I understand what the
CEOs are saying that, you know, human beings, we benefit
from being around each other. And then the other piece
will is our economy benefits from folks being out of
(20:40):
the out of the house, right. You know, we we've
been in a big commercial real estate drought for a
long time now. You know, I'm in the New York
metropolitan area. A lot of businesses have suffered. I used
to love Roast Kitchen. That's where I went to grab
lunch from time to time. They went out of business,
So businesses have suffered. You know, I think it's better that,
you know, we get up and we get out and
(21:03):
get together again.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
You know, I want to talk a little bit about
like how we manage ourselves from you know, that's the
foundational levels like sleep, diet, exercise, and being corporate athletes
in a way, how do we manage how do you
recommend we manage ourselves so that we can bring that
a game.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
So the best investment that we can ever make, the
best investment that we will ever make, it's in ourselves, and.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
That starts with our body.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
We are a body, you know, and you know in
my book I talk about black men in particular, we
have the second lost life expectancy of any demographic in
this country. The only people who are living shorter lives
are are brothers from the Alaska Native American population. And
(21:56):
you know a lot of us we hit the gym,
we work out, but we don't go to the doctor.
You know, the stresses of corporate life. Because we are
black men, they might hit our bodies a little bit
differently than they hit other people's bodies. You know, we're
more likely to have hypertension and you know, heart disease
(22:18):
and certain types of ailments. I think it all starts
with you got to go to the doctor. And I'm employing.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Brothers, you know, to go.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I've lost a couple of industry colleagues. The brother that
I worked with, he died at the age of forty
five of a heart ailment this past January. Another brother
that I work for, he works that I know, He
works for an NBA team and suffered a massive stroke.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
He's not even forty years old yet. You know.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
In my book Company Men, I interview brothers who they
talk about the effects of stress on their bodies. And
you know, one brother I interviewed, he was working on
a campaign and it didn't go well, and it.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
Caused his company to lose a billion dollars in sales.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
He goes to the doctor, you know, during that time,
and the doctor says, brother, you can't live with your
blood pressure is high.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
And then he gets fired from the job.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
And then his blood pressure normalizes, you know, right after
he gets fired.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
So we have to recognize that there is.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
A certain level of stress that comes from working in
corporate America. But we got to stay on top of
our bodies. Step number one is going to the doctor.
Step number two is the type of food that we're
putting in our bodies.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
There's a lot of garbage out there. There's a lot of.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Easy to get, it's cheap, there's ads that are trying
to brainwash us to eat a lot of this garbage.
It feels good to eat some junk food after you've
had a stressful day, but you know, it's garbage in
and garbage out, and longevity for me has definitely become
a focus for black men because when we die at
our peak earning years, that's lost wealth that contributes to
(23:59):
the racial wealth. Get yeah, and I loved you brought
up that analogy. We have to train for this, like athletes,
you want that, you want that c sweet job, you
want to break through the glass ceiling, You're not going to.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Get there if you're sick. You know, they gonna give it.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
To the healthy people. So we got to take care
of ourselves and I will. I'm seeing too many brothers
between the ages like thirty five and fifty that are
suffering from stress related ailments that I think lifestyle choices
can help fix. And then we got to figure out
better mechanisms for dealing with stress as black men.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
You know, often when I talk to.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Corporate people or people who have.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Been in the corporate part of this versus entrepreneurs or investors,
I want to ask this question about generational wealth because
it is assumed that you can't build it with a job.
And I'd like you to touch on your view and
how because this podcast is for people whether they're in technology,
building technology, leveraging technology, and interested in wealth, how.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Do you build it with?
Speaker 1 (25:08):
You know the proverbial nine to five or you know,
when you're checking in and you're not the CEO, you're
not the owner, you're not the president.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah time, brother, right, you work in corporate America. You
can become a millionaire and you do it.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
It's four letters. It's not the most glamorous thing. Four
O one K. You know, and I have friends they trade,
and I all respect to that. But you always have.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
To be buying into the stock market every two weeks,
buying into that stock market.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
You know.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Number one, you got to build a budget. Understand what
you're spending on housing and some of the food and
the day to day expenses.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Build a budget. But you know, max out that four
to one k.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
And you know, one of the things that I stress
is set it and forget it, Set it and forget it.
Max that sucker out. And as you grow in your
career and you're making those six figure salaries, brother, you
can be in your forties and already a millionaire or
close to it if you're just disciplined about setting it
and forgetting it. And then also if you change jobs,
(26:17):
don't cast that thing out because there's major tax penalties
with that. Roll it into an IRA. So that's step
number one is build your four one K. Step number two,
if you're able to do this, build a solid cushion
of savings. And I'm talking like a year or two
of savings, like build a solid foundation of cash. And
(26:37):
then once you have cash now you can start to
get creative and start thinking about diversified income streams and
private equity and things like that.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
But for me, the baseline is you get that four
to one.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
K right, you manage your credit strategically, you know, all
right to live a little right like life is meant
to be enjoy. I want you to enjoy the gravy,
right that matters. But definitely you can build generational wealth.
You can build a multimillion dollar portfolio doing everything that
(27:11):
I just said.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
And also I'm a big proponent of get you some
real estate.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
If you're able to do that, I know we're in
the midst of an affordability crisis in our country, and
maybe you can't afford a house in your market, but
maybe you can buy an investment property somewhere else and
put some tenets in that and have them build an
equity for you. Every time they make that mortgage payment.
You can build a little bit of cash flow for yourself.
(27:36):
I'm a big proponent of house hacking as well. You
might buy a multifamily, you live in one, you ran
out the others, and those people are giving you cash flow,
and you're building.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Wealth through that equity. So that's how I tend to
think about it.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
You can be a corporate dude. It's not glamorous. You
don't have to be the CEO. You don't have to
be an entrepreneur. God bless odds. Everybody ain't built like that,
and that's okay. But you can get to millionaire status
doing everything I just talked about.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
You know, there's this push not every corporation, but there's
many corporations following suit with you know, this administration's pushed
towards removing DEI, dismantling those programs, and pressuring you know,
those many corporations to follow suit. How do you see
that impacting black folks ability to continue to climb the ladder.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
So I love that you asked this question. And I've
been reflecting a lot.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
We're still in Black History Month, and I've been reflecting
a lot on something Frederick Douglas said after emancipation. And
I'm gonna paraphrase because I don't remember the whole quote,
but I'm.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Gonna give me the spirit of what Frederick Douglas said.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
They basically asked him, mister Douglas, you know black people
have been emancipated. What should the government do with them?
What should the government do for them? And his response
was nothing, y'all have done enough.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Okay, we leave us to ourselves. Leave us be, let's
build ourselves up. And at this moment in time, you know,
we're in a.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Very volatile moment from a political standpoint globally right, and
you know, institutions are influx. And I think at this moment,
when all of our institutions are in flux and they're
figuring out how they want to deal with certain types
of things, I think now is the time for us
to just look inward. I think now's the time for
(29:37):
us to come together. You know, I'm going to be.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Building a company men community, and we're going to create
an open form on Zoom.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
We're gonna just bring brothers on, sisters, whoever, and we're
going to talk about these issues and we're going to
lift each other up. But right now, while all of that's,
you know, being debated, I think we got to look inward,
you know what I'm saying. And the other thing too
is John O'Brien. He said something very interesting. He was
on a podcast. I saw a clip the other day,
(30:06):
I don't remember which podcast. It was Cam Newton's podcast,
and asked him about Di and John O'Brien. He basically said, look,
you know, we're going to be a majority minority country
by twenty forty five. You look at black Hispanic Latino populations.
That's four point six trillion dollars in consumer spending alone, right,
(30:28):
And any company that wants to capture.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
That share, you know, right, four point six trillion.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Brother, that's bigger than the UK's economy, that's bigger than
Germany's economy, that's bigger than France.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
I mean, that's power.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
And I don't think any company in their right mind
wants to alienate those consumers.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
And I think, you know, if you want to capture
that dollar, you recognize that you.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Got to be able to market to those populations. And
you can't market to those populations if you don't understand
those relationships. You can't understand those populations if you don't
have the right level of representation in your company. So,
in spite of all of the rhetoric, you know, I'm
just looking at the numbers. You know, I live in data.
I've spent my career in financial services. What story is
(31:17):
the data telling us? And let's just follow what it says.
And it's a numbers game. And anybody who's against that,
we don't believe you. You need more people, you know.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
What I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Tell us about the book, Jess, where can we get it?
Is it out all of that?
Speaker 3 (31:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:33):
So, Company Men, A Wellness Guide for Black Men in
Corporate America is available at all major retailers, Amazon, Barnes,
and Noble, just to name two off the top of
my head. The audiobook is coming out on March eighteenth.
And you know the book I analyze. I interviewed dozens
of black men who work in corporate America, and I
(31:54):
chose One.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
Of my little cousins said, just why are you to
talk about the ladies?
Speaker 2 (31:58):
And I said, listen, I chose to focus on men
because this book is in large part autobiographical. It's also
dedicated to my uncle, the late Great Jan Simpson.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
He was forty eight when he died.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
He was the CFO for ethicn Endo Surgery, Inc. That
is one of Johnson and Johnson's surgical device makers.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
And you know, he was fit, he was the champion.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
And his death, you know, I've spent the last twenty
years trying to understand what was it that he was
going through as he climbed that ladder, because you know,
when he passed in two thousand and two, Corporate America
and the level he was at was even less diverse.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
Than it is now.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
And you know, I've dealt with the physical effects of
the stress.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
You know, before I learned healthy mechanisms for dealing with that,
I interviewed other brothers on.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
That, and then I realized, also the physical piece is
one thing, but like, what are the stressors that are
leading to you know, those stress related ailments. And so
I talk about, you know, how we have to repress
negative emotions and anger, and I get into the history
of the angry black man stereotype and why we feel
(33:07):
a need to charm and put people at ease because
society they see us as larger and more aggressive and.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
Hyper masculine.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Like these stereotypes, you know, they started in the Antebellum
period and they've infiltrated the American psyche and they affect
us today. They put our lives in danger when we're
dealing with police. Right, these issues still remain. So I
get into that piece. I talk about how do you
fit into corporate culture?
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Right?
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Because corporate culture is not about race, right, but everybody has.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
To assimilate into a company.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
But then there are some nuances to that that are
race specifics. So I get into the nuances of fitting
into corporate culture, and then a lot of the stuff
I talk about is universal. How do you deal with
layoffs and riorcs? How do you turn your wages into wealth?
Speaker 3 (34:00):
I do talk about, you know, in my.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Money chapter, not just how to grow wealth, but also
how do you negotiate salary.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
There is a racial pay gap in this country.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
But part of the reason for that is black talent
has lower expectations than their peers on what they should
be earning. And there are historical reasons for that. You know,
we've been shut out of certain rooms, we're shut out
of certain networks.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
But the only way to understand your worth is to
have your ear of the street and do that canvassing,
and so I do get into a lot of that.
Also thrivers guilt. How do you deal with family?
Speaker 2 (34:37):
They think you're balling, They asking for money, You're trying
to build a life.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
So all that stuff is in there, man.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
All of that justin Grahant, I appreciate you spending some
time with me. Go get the book company man so
ound now. Black Tech Green Money is a production of Blavity,
Afro Tech, The Black Effect podcast Networking Night Hire Media.
It's produced by Morgan Debonne and me Well Lucas. The
additional production support or by Kate McDonald s Ergan and
Jainia McGee. Special thank you to Michael Davis in Love
(35:04):
Beach to learn more about my guessing Other Tech the
stuff that's an Innovator's at afrotech dot com. Video version
this episode will drop to Black Tech Green Money on YouTube.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
So'll tap in.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Enjoy your Black Tech Green.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
Money, share us with somebody, Go.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Get your money.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
Peace in Love
Host
Will Lucas
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