August 19, 2025 • 35 mins
Ep. 229 Nina Westbrook is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, entrepreneur, and Founder of Nebbi app, which is a CBT therapy App that helps you check in with your mood and guides you forward with tools that actually fit into your life.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
So another black tech, green money. We'll look and see.
It's so gad, so glad to be with all of
you guys.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Really appreciate everyone who checks in every Tuesday, every week
listening to this podcast, and so today the distinct privilege
of welcoming Nina Westbrook, licensed merit and family Therapists, entrepreneur, advocate,
and somebody I'm trying to get to be a techie.
She's building an app right now, launching an app, the
Nevy App, the therapist designed emotional wellness app that helps
(00:27):
people check in with how they feel and take small
science backsteps to feel better in real time.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Welcoming, Thank you.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
I feel honored to be here. I feel like this
is my first venture into the tech space as a
tech entrepreneur. So I'm a little nervous, but I'm excited.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Oh, we are a welcoming group. So you're in good
hands here.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
That's great.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
So I wanted to start here.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
And so there are a bunch of other apps out
there in the therapy space and the wellness space. What
do you think those what do you think was missing
from the marketplace to be able to provide you know,
the scratch to some ish out.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
There well from a clinical or mental health standpoint, if
I'm putting my therapist's hat on, I think it's wonderful
that there are so many tools and so many apps
and people looking to create things to help people manage
and cope and deal with, you know, the everyday stressors
(01:28):
from my own personal perspective as being a therapist seeing
clients and the limits that came with that along with
you know, then starting my brand Bene bay Nina and
being online and having a website and trying to share
resources and moving my journey from in person to digital,
(01:51):
and I feel like what was missing from my experience
is similar to what's missing from a lot of app experiences,
is that ability to meet each individual where they are
in whatever ways that is. It's hard to kind of
(02:12):
create content and create information and share information for the masses,
right because we're all living our individual journeys. What works
for one person doesn't necessarily work for the other. I
think there's a lot of mood tracking apps, there's a
lot of habit tracking apps, and what we wanted to
do and what I wanted to do as a therapist
(02:33):
is just create something with neb that was different in
the fact that it's not it's therapy adjacent, but it's
not therapy and it's not a replacement for therapy. And
that's very evident when you're using the app. It's truly
a tool that's actionable and lightweight and it meets you
where you are, which is what I think a lot
(02:54):
of weonness apps in place and things are missing. But
the other component to that is a lifestyle component because
we're busy, Like let's say, if there's so many things
that are going on in the world, there's so many
things going on in my own personal life, Like I
don't have time to keep up and keep track with everything,
So there's so much noise and information. And what we
(03:15):
wanted to do with Nevi that's different is kind of
eliminate some of that noise and really focus and on
the inter that like center the human who and the
user who's using the app, so that we can simplify
how that they can go about feeling better feeling better.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah, And you know, I think especially in our community,
certainly probably in other communities, there are those of us
who wait until we're in crisis to talk about you know,
we need to figure out something that's you know, helping
us mentally, spiritually, physically all the things. And you talk
about mental illness from a daily not a crisis driven
(03:56):
you know need. How do you encourage us to be
more proactive on this?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Well? I always it's always been a part of my
mission to just coming from a family of sports and
having a sports background myself, and understanding the physicality and
understanding how we train our bodies to perform and to
how we alter our diets to create the best performance physically.
(04:25):
But we're not putting that same amount of attention and
energy and intention into training our minds and understanding how
we feel and fostering emotional wellness when really, if we're
going to be living and thriving then we are we
need to be physically well, but we also need to
(04:46):
be mentally well. And so placing this just as much
significance on our mental health is as we do on
our physical health is so important and that's something that
we're always striving to teach, and that's something that I'm
always striving to to share. And I think that you know,
as far as being proactive in our daily lives, I
(05:07):
think that things have to be realistic. We have to
be able to set ourselves up to actually succeed. And
I feel like when there's too much on our plate
and when we don't understand something, then it's easy to
kind of veer off and like shut that part of
ourselves down and not really go into or exploring that
(05:30):
when there's so many other things that we need to
be doing.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah, you know, and I appreciate that somebody who's got
expertise in the discipline is building something here. Like you know,
I was listening to a friend of mine talk on
this panel one time, and they were talking about how
like sometimes we just assume that technologists to build things
have our best interests at heart.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
That is not true.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
And so to have you having studied, licensed, certifications and
all the things to start there and then this technology
is secondary, Like that means so much to me as
an individual. Well, talk to me about how you know
this is a designed to be like the best tech
in the world's designed to solve a human problem. Absolutely,
(06:15):
I think you won't have greech.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
No. I totally understand what you're saying. And I think
that I got to have Shinai Bobo on my podcast.
She's a futurist and she's incredible. If you've never heard
of her, yeah, okay, so she's she's well known in
the AFRO text remarkable. Yes, So she said something that
really stood out to me, and the idea of like
(06:42):
tech and AI and the people, like you said, who
are actually building and creating this technology, their motives are
not necessarily human centered, right, And so approaching the app
and building the app from a clinical standpoint and putting
the clinical implications first is something that I'm really really
(07:04):
proud of because that's what the goal is at the
end of the day, and the entire app and everything
that we did had so much intention behind it in
building the app and making sure we're always centering the
user and making sure we're not doing any harm and
making sure that we're actually helping and providing useful tools
(07:27):
and useful insights that people can grow and learn. And
even if it's very very tiny, because we don't have
to have these aha moments every day. Nobody's having Aha
moments every day, right, But if we're taking small little
steps and learning a little bit more about ourselves and
our emotions and understanding and becoming a little bit more
(07:48):
emotionally intelligent every day, and growing. Then that is a
huge step in the right direction. And so to be
able to implement the clinical aspects of the app first
and really center the experience around the user and the individuals.
That's I think one of the other things that really
sets Nevy apart.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, and many apps as the ones I use and
that you know, I want to talk about your experience. Also,
many of them center like habit tracking as the goal,
like did you do X number of this today? Did
you take this many steps? Did you you know, meditate
for this long? And you check the box and you
get a you know, a fuzzy or or like whatever
(08:30):
you get, and like you emphasize instead like emotional patterns,
and so can you talk to me about the distinction
and why it's important for us.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
As human beings well, because we want to meet you
where you are. You know, the app is meant to
meet you where you are. We're not intending or interested
in judging your progress or anything else that you've done
up until that point. I think that what we wanted
to do is create long term behavioral change, long term
(09:01):
mental wellness, make long term mental wellness achievable and attainable,
and in order to achieve that there has to be understanding.
We can create habits and build habits and by doing
the same thing every single day. But if we don't
know mentally or understand mentally why we're doing the things
that we are doing and what we can do to
(09:23):
help combat those feelings or change the way we feel
and make it work for us, then we're not developing
that emotional self efficacy. And I think that that's what
the therapeutic experience is like. Right you go to therapy,
you're meant to The goal is not for you to
be in therapy forever. You're meant to learn and to
(09:43):
grow and to understand. Because once you learn, grow understand,
you're also at the same time you're getting those tools
that you can implement so you're able to recognize what's
going on with you emotionally and mentally, and then you're
able to draw from your own bank and mentors merise
of tools and things that you can do that you
know work for you to help improve your mood and
(10:06):
improve and emotionally regulate yourself. And I think that's that's
the same goal Nev shares with the therapeutic process.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yeah, and I want you to.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Talk to me before we started recording you talking about you.
I'm a non technical founder and disciplines. I know my stuff,
but like the technology is not my thing, and so
I wonder like how.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Like what was like the beta process?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Like how did you go through building software and not
necessarily being an engineer, but like how did you communicate
what you wanted to engineers?
Speaker 1 (10:41):
How did you go through trial and error, failure and progress?
How did you talk to me about that?
Speaker 3 (10:46):
You know, it's actually really funny. It's not really funny.
I know that collaboration and anything is so important. We
have a wonderful, wonderful developer and tech team their company
called Rush out of New Zealand and my business partners
actually out of New Zealand as well or Australia. I'm sorry.
(11:09):
And so we just had so many conversations, so many
really really long meetings of me trying to explain as
a therapist what we can have in the app and
why we can't do this and why this technology is
not fitting for this situation and as far as our
(11:30):
testing we did, we you know, going into this process,
I was advised to get very very clear about what
the user journey was going to be like and what
the experiences was going to be like. So from Aaron,
we invested a lot of money into actual testing, and
(11:51):
not just on the beta testing, but before we even
built the app, Before we developed the app and the features,
we created an idea of what we thought would work
based on a clinician led approach, and then we had
other test We had users put or testers try out
the app and give feedback. I think one of the
(12:14):
values of our of the app and the entire experience
has been everyone's willingness to collaborate and be open to
different ideas and communicate. I feel like when you're working
on a mental wellness app, even though there are so
many different people involved, I could they're probably more than
twenty five people who've worked on this app. I think
(12:36):
that everyone's willingness to listen and to understand and to
share perspectives and openness was really great. And because of
that safe environment we've been able to create as a team,
we were able to get the best feedback that we
could from our testers, from everyone involved in the project,
(12:58):
and that process was really really valuable to us. It's
something that we can we will continue through our founding
memberships and getting feedback and really understanding what the users
need and how we can better the app for them. So,
because it's like I say this all the time on
Instagram or wherever, like I'm literally building an app for us,
(13:19):
and I want users to understand and feel like they're
part of the journey. And if NEB is not, if
NEB is not meeting that qualification and actually being the
tool that we say that it is, then we want
to know that and we're going to improve. So feedback
and user testing has been really really valuable for us
(13:40):
as a as a company.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
You know, what are the KPIs that show you that
this thing is working or.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Is not working well? Number One, we have a lot
of founding members and people who are who are willing
to take a chance and pay a lot of money
to join this experience and be a part of our
(14:12):
growth and our app from the start. And I think
that people's investment in understanding not only in the app,
but their investment in themselves. People want to feel better,
people are searching for tools, and people are looking for
different things that they can do to help to improve
their lives. And I think that through our testing process
(14:36):
and through the amount of people that are showing up
and wanting to be a part of our journey without
even having seen the app yet. I think that's a
really big indicator that we are that this is something
that people are really seeking seeking.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
It appears to me that this is like a one
time payment.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Is can you talk about how your business model is
and if it's a one time payment, like how why did.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
You choose that overlight subscriptions and talk to me about
what it is.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
So this this is a great question because it kind
of ties into this whole idea of collaboration. It's not
a one time payment. It's a one time payment for
founding members and lifetime access. And that was a pre
launch promotion that we thought that we thought would be
best for us because we do want to get our
(15:30):
users feedback before we go to the masses. We do
want to collect that data. For us, data is gold,
and we want people who are genuinely invested in their
experience and in neby to give us the data and
the feedback and the surveys. And you know, if you
were to interview one of our founding members, they probably
(15:54):
are tired of us by now because the amount of
feedback we're gathering from their experience of being early users
on the app is helping us to improve the app
already before it's even gotten out to everyone else. So
I think that.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
That So that.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
Explains the founding members. The app is definitely going to
be a subscription model. It's thirteen ninety nine a month
or a one time or an annual payment, so it's
of ninety nine dollars.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Yeah, that's good. That's good. I'm curious, like how did
you learn to lead?
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Like, because you know, coming from you know, kind of
like a science psychology y'all know, you can explain like
the background, the more medical kind of background, and then
now you're in this chief you know, role business if
you build business before, So I don't want to like
you build this, I'm I.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Don't get used to it, So like how would you
want to do it? I'm how did I what?
Speaker 1 (17:01):
How did you learn to lead people and lead an enterprise?
Speaker 3 (17:07):
You know? So that's a really great and interesting question.
I don't see it as leading, Like I'm such a
collaborator anyone who you spoke to, anyone who's ever worked
with me. I think I know enough to know that
I don't know everything, and that I if I'm going
to be able to be the best or if anything
(17:29):
that I'm working on is going to be the best
that it could possibly be, that means that there are
going to be that I can't do it by myself, right,
Like I said, I'm not a tech This is my
first tech venture and I know nothing about tech, or
(17:50):
at least I know a little now. But I know
that putting the right people who share similar values in
place to build our team together, I think that's really important.
And I think it's a part of leadership is knowing
how to build a team that will work well together.
(18:12):
And you know, like I said, I come from a
sports family. I'm also a single, a sister to three
brothers and no sisters, So I feel like I've been
kind of leading and bossing my brothers around since I
stepped on this earth, you know. And so not only that,
(18:33):
but I come from a background playing sports and being
a part of a team and working towards a goal
and trying to and sacrificing things and utilizing what the
best of everyone and trying to pull out the best
of everyone in order to achieve one goal. And I
think that, like there's so many different things in my
(18:58):
life and my past and my history that attribute to
who I am and my approach to leading the team
that we have now. But at the end of the day,
I think that when people feel hurt and appreciated, then
they're going to give you their best foot forward.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
There's a stat that came out a couple of weeks
ago and the said twenty eight percent of people.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Are using AI or have used AI for therapy.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
At first, I want to get like your initial reaction
to that, and then talk about what implications that could have.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Oh my gosh, when I first saw that, I wasn't surprised,
but I was a little appalled. No, I think that
fortunately for mental health clinicians, I just don't believe that that.
I believe that as a human we have the best
(19:57):
opportunity to understand ourselves. And I think that the implications
about using chat GBT or AI for as a form
of therapy. There's no hippa in chat GBT, right, So
anything that you put any information that you share into
(20:20):
the world or into those those programs or that technology
is there for the grabbing. And I think that in
order to that's one of the beautiful things about the
therapeutic experience is that you know that it's a trusted environment,
and unfortunately, I don't believe that AI has quite gotten
(20:44):
to the point where it is a trusted environment. I
recently saw Sam sam Oh I should know this, Yeah,
I should know this as a tech entrepreneur. I saw
him having a conversation about how dangerous it is to
use AI as your therapist, and he obviously we know
(21:08):
who he is. And so I think that there's the
it lacks the the human touch number one, and I
think that it doesn't have the security and the safety
net around it quite yet. That doesn't mean it won't
happen in the future, but today it's it's not necessarily
a safe place. And also, again we're talking about the
(21:35):
values and the information of the people who are providing
that technology, and we don't know. There's no way to
know what information that AI is giving you and shooting
back out you, shooting it back out to you because
there's no person behind it, and the person you think
(21:55):
or it feels that you feel might be behind it
is not necessarily that's not a real thing.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Yeah, yeah, I wonder, because I've asked this question to
a couple of other founders recently, it's like, how do
you think about wealth, generational wealth and what you're building?
You know, because obviously, like you know, there is a
need for what you're building, but I imagine I guess
some point you have to feel like, Okay, the market
is there's a market opportunity also, and I wonder, like
(22:25):
how you think about that?
Speaker 3 (22:30):
Wow? I mean, I think that I'm extremely fortunate, and
I think that's part of the thing that makes me
special and the projects that I choose to work on
very special is that I try to approach everything without
(23:00):
the motivation of money because I have the luxury of
doing that. And when I'm able to do that, it
allows me to think clearly, I think and put more
intention behind what the actual impact I'm trying to create
(23:25):
will be rather than the financial gain. But when it
comes to generational wealth, I grew up a lower middle
class family and I always had what I needed. I
was a very I was very fortunate, and as a
(23:46):
mental health practitioner and a therapist my values. I just
placed my values in people like I truly do. I'm
sure there are a lot of things that that play
into that and my ability to do that, but emotional
(24:10):
emotional you know, safety and connection and love and compassion
and empathy and quality relationships. These are these are the
things that I I associate with wealth, time with loved ones.
(24:32):
And so I don't know what's going to happen, Like
that's not something that is at the forefront of my mind.
I'm young, it's not something now ask me, ask my
husband that same question, and he will have a totally
different answer. But we're I think maybe that's why we
go together, like there's some balance here whereas you know,
(24:55):
so I don't.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Know good, you know, I am. I think a lot about.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
We talked about like the gamification of apps, like in
the dopamine head and I want to go a little bit.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Deeper to there.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
You know, there are the reasons many apps are built
the way they are is because in order to get
you to open it, they got to think about what's
going to prompt like what are those triggers that make
you open this app? And for many of us, it's
that sugar USh, It's that you know, I'm going to
feel good when I get that notification. I'm going to
you know, somebody wants to talk to me, you know,
(25:30):
somebody's waiting for me that all the app is calling me.
What are the pressures you might feel to resist or
think alternatively about gamification in that way.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Well, this might sound interesting, but a part of our
strategy as a company is not to make people feel
as though they are in need of Nebi. Nebi is
(26:06):
not We are not trying to create Nebbe addictions. Neb
is built to help you grow and learn and understand
and apply simple things that you can do in your life.
And then there's gonna be a day where you don't
(26:26):
need nebb anymore. And that's where we are right now.
We will always focus on our why and making sure
that we're saying true to who we are. Of course
we're gonna grow, we're gonna change, we're gonna expand, but
there are certain things that we won't cross over into
because we're gonna always stay true to our values and
(26:49):
we're never it's when you open nebby, You're never gonna
feel foggy or cloudy or overwhelmed. That is not there
our intention. Our intention is to create simplicity and make
life easier. The dopamine that you're going to get from
(27:10):
using the app is not going to come from opening
the app. It's going to come from completing the task
that you get based on what you've locked and the
emotions that you've locked. You're going to feel better, but
you're going to generate that feeling better, not Nettie, not
the app. The app is just a tool to help
(27:30):
you live life outside of the phone. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
I've read in other places where you talked about you know,
things that you built are intentionally not for everybody. But
you know, I'm curious in how you consider user acquisition
when it's not for everybody.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
I think that research has shown that there are more
people now than ever and it will continue to grow
who are searching and in who are in search of
mental wellness tools and resources and apps. And I think
(28:13):
that we are building NEVI for the masses. It's accessible.
We want to be able to provide therapeutic like a
therapeutic like experience without the pressure of therapy, without the
financial costs and expenses of therapy, and also to go
(28:40):
along with therapy. I think that being able to appeal
meeting people where they are, meeting each individual where they are,
is our way of connecting and creating something that is
for everyone. Like I said, we're not all in crisis.
Everybody's not in right, we don't all need to call
(29:01):
nine one one. Nev is not your nine to one
one call. Don't if you're in a crisis with NEBBE
is not for you in that moment. It could be
used as a tool after how and NEBE is like
not necessarily for anyone who's constantly thriving, but who's constantly
thriving in this environment, in this society right across the world,
(29:25):
And so neb is built for everyone in between.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
What did you learn from reviews of your competitors products
or things that were already out there that helps you
shape the messaging that you guys, you know, communicate to
your perspective.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
I feel like something that was really consistent is that
there's a lot there's like an overwhelming amount of information
and wellness information, especially since COVID, there was like a
huge influx, you know. Number one, there's a lot of
a huge influx in reported depressions, anxiety and everything else.
(30:05):
Right due to isolation and many other factors, people are
searching for and seeking out that mental health support. And
we got really oversaturated with a lot of information. And
NEBBY is about clearing out the noise, like you're not
going to have a lot of noise from NEBBE, And
I think that what was missing that was one thing.
(30:32):
There's a lot of noise, not knowing who to trust,
what was real, what was actually going to work, and
also not having something that was too clinical or sterile.
I think there's still a lot of stigma around mental
health and wellness. So how do we create something that
(30:55):
feels more everyday and lifestyle and accessible without being overwhelming?
Sometimes there were other I hate talking. I'm such a
cheerleader of everyone. It's hard for me to even call
out a company. But I will give you an example.
There's a product where you can track everything, or it's
(31:17):
tracking everything for you. Everything is being tracked, you're being
told all this information for your like about yourself, but
you're not being told how to actually do anything about it,
like how do I fix that? How do I change that?
So if you're tracking tracking but nothing's changing, you're just
gathering data, like data without gathering data without action is
(31:41):
not necessarily as helpful. Or it's you're gaining education, but
you're not feeling better. It's not making me feel better. Right,
And there are apps where there's a lot of information,
and there's a lot of scrolling, and there's a lot
of content and everything is there. You just have to
go find it, right But who has time for that
(32:03):
when you're feeling overwhelmed, when you need a reset, when
you need like a quick something. Then that that's not
really tangible. It's not something that we would prioritize if
it feels like work, right, so keeping it. We wanted
to find something that that was simple and effective and
(32:28):
evidence based and real and felt like it could truly
be lifestyle, which is what wellness should be. We should
be incorporating mental wellness into our daily lives.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
And I think my I think my last question is
like me, because you touched on this a few times,
and I want.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
To ask more like directly.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
It's like there are there's training you have which is
like clinical in many ways, and now you're being thrust
even further there into entrepreneurship. Like you've been an entrepreneur,
like you've been building things, but like now you like
you like all it at this point. Yeah, Like what
is like the mental you know shift you've had to
(33:12):
make over the last few months or years on this journey.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Oh man, it's been a it's been a time. This
is probably my most expensive venture, which also naturally comes
with a lot of pressure but also time and energy.
To be the clinical lead for a mental wellness APP
(33:42):
is a big fee. I do have support where the
process of developing a clinical advisory board, But there's always
there's there's there's family, there's motherhood. There's just any imaginable distraction.
(34:02):
I live in Los Angeles. We're evacuated during the fires,
the fear, the chaos, the neighbors are friends. There's just
so many distracts. There's so many things constantly happening. And
then in the midst of building this app, over the
past year, more and more find trying to find some
(34:26):
peace and calm and actually implement the things that we
are trying to share in the app into my own life.
I think has been a challenge. But I do know
that there's a season, and I understand there's a season
for everything, and we go through different times in our
(34:50):
lives where we're going to be pooled in different directions,
and maybe in this time in my life has been
that direction, and I feel it feels good. It's very
rewarding work to build something that is meant to impact
people in such a positive way, it feels kind of
like worth the sacrifice.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Black Tech Green Money is a production to Blavity Afro
Tech on the Black Effect podcast network in Nighthearted Media.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
It's produced by Morgan Debonne and me Well Lucas, with
additional production support.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
By Kate McDonald and Jada McGee. Special thank you to
Michael Davis and Love Beach. Learn more about my guess
other tech disrupt that's an innovators at afrotech dot com.
Video version this episode will drop to Black Tech Green
Money on YouTube, So tap it in. Enjoy your Black
Tech Green Money shit us with somebody Go Get your money.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Peace and love,
So another black tech, green money. We'll look and see.
It's so gad, so glad to be with all of
you guys.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Really appreciate everyone who checks in every Tuesday, every week
listening to this podcast, and so today the distinct privilege
of welcoming Nina Westbrook, licensed merit and family Therapists, entrepreneur, advocate,
and somebody I'm trying to get to be a techie.
She's building an app right now, launching an app, the
Nevy App, the therapist designed emotional wellness app that helps
(00:27):
people check in with how they feel and take small
science backsteps to feel better in real time.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Welcoming, Thank you.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
I feel honored to be here. I feel like this
is my first venture into the tech space as a
tech entrepreneur. So I'm a little nervous, but I'm excited.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Oh, we are a welcoming group. So you're in good
hands here.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
That's great.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
So I wanted to start here.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
And so there are a bunch of other apps out
there in the therapy space and the wellness space. What
do you think those what do you think was missing
from the marketplace to be able to provide you know,
the scratch to some ish out.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
There well from a clinical or mental health standpoint, if
I'm putting my therapist's hat on, I think it's wonderful
that there are so many tools and so many apps
and people looking to create things to help people manage
and cope and deal with, you know, the everyday stressors
(01:28):
from my own personal perspective as being a therapist seeing
clients and the limits that came with that along with
you know, then starting my brand Bene bay Nina and
being online and having a website and trying to share
resources and moving my journey from in person to digital,
(01:51):
and I feel like what was missing from my experience
is similar to what's missing from a lot of app experiences,
is that ability to meet each individual where they are
in whatever ways that is. It's hard to kind of
(02:12):
create content and create information and share information for the masses,
right because we're all living our individual journeys. What works
for one person doesn't necessarily work for the other. I
think there's a lot of mood tracking apps, there's a
lot of habit tracking apps, and what we wanted to
do and what I wanted to do as a therapist
(02:33):
is just create something with neb that was different in
the fact that it's not it's therapy adjacent, but it's
not therapy and it's not a replacement for therapy. And
that's very evident when you're using the app. It's truly
a tool that's actionable and lightweight and it meets you
where you are, which is what I think a lot
(02:54):
of weonness apps in place and things are missing. But
the other component to that is a lifestyle component because
we're busy, Like let's say, if there's so many things
that are going on in the world, there's so many
things going on in my own personal life, Like I
don't have time to keep up and keep track with everything,
So there's so much noise and information. And what we
(03:15):
wanted to do with Nevi that's different is kind of
eliminate some of that noise and really focus and on
the inter that like center the human who and the
user who's using the app, so that we can simplify
how that they can go about feeling better feeling better.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah, And you know, I think especially in our community,
certainly probably in other communities, there are those of us
who wait until we're in crisis to talk about you know,
we need to figure out something that's you know, helping
us mentally, spiritually, physically all the things. And you talk
about mental illness from a daily not a crisis driven
(03:56):
you know need. How do you encourage us to be
more proactive on this?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Well? I always it's always been a part of my
mission to just coming from a family of sports and
having a sports background myself, and understanding the physicality and
understanding how we train our bodies to perform and to
how we alter our diets to create the best performance physically.
(04:25):
But we're not putting that same amount of attention and
energy and intention into training our minds and understanding how
we feel and fostering emotional wellness when really, if we're
going to be living and thriving then we are we
need to be physically well, but we also need to
(04:46):
be mentally well. And so placing this just as much
significance on our mental health is as we do on
our physical health is so important and that's something that
we're always striving to teach, and that's something that I'm
always striving to to share. And I think that you know,
as far as being proactive in our daily lives, I
(05:07):
think that things have to be realistic. We have to
be able to set ourselves up to actually succeed. And
I feel like when there's too much on our plate
and when we don't understand something, then it's easy to
kind of veer off and like shut that part of
ourselves down and not really go into or exploring that
(05:30):
when there's so many other things that we need to
be doing.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah, you know, and I appreciate that somebody who's got
expertise in the discipline is building something here. Like you know,
I was listening to a friend of mine talk on
this panel one time, and they were talking about how
like sometimes we just assume that technologists to build things
have our best interests at heart.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
That is not true.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
And so to have you having studied, licensed, certifications and
all the things to start there and then this technology
is secondary, Like that means so much to me as
an individual. Well, talk to me about how you know
this is a designed to be like the best tech
in the world's designed to solve a human problem. Absolutely,
(06:15):
I think you won't have greech.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
No. I totally understand what you're saying. And I think
that I got to have Shinai Bobo on my podcast.
She's a futurist and she's incredible. If you've never heard
of her, yeah, okay, so she's she's well known in
the AFRO text remarkable. Yes, So she said something that
really stood out to me, and the idea of like
(06:42):
tech and AI and the people, like you said, who
are actually building and creating this technology, their motives are
not necessarily human centered, right, And so approaching the app
and building the app from a clinical standpoint and putting
the clinical implications first is something that I'm really really
(07:04):
proud of because that's what the goal is at the
end of the day, and the entire app and everything
that we did had so much intention behind it in
building the app and making sure we're always centering the
user and making sure we're not doing any harm and
making sure that we're actually helping and providing useful tools
(07:27):
and useful insights that people can grow and learn. And
even if it's very very tiny, because we don't have
to have these aha moments every day. Nobody's having Aha
moments every day, right, But if we're taking small little
steps and learning a little bit more about ourselves and
our emotions and understanding and becoming a little bit more
(07:48):
emotionally intelligent every day, and growing. Then that is a
huge step in the right direction. And so to be
able to implement the clinical aspects of the app first
and really center the experience around the user and the individuals.
That's I think one of the other things that really
sets Nevy apart.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, and many apps as the ones I use and
that you know, I want to talk about your experience. Also,
many of them center like habit tracking as the goal,
like did you do X number of this today? Did
you take this many steps? Did you you know, meditate
for this long? And you check the box and you
get a you know, a fuzzy or or like whatever
(08:30):
you get, and like you emphasize instead like emotional patterns,
and so can you talk to me about the distinction
and why it's important for us.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
As human beings well, because we want to meet you
where you are. You know, the app is meant to
meet you where you are. We're not intending or interested
in judging your progress or anything else that you've done
up until that point. I think that what we wanted
to do is create long term behavioral change, long term
(09:01):
mental wellness, make long term mental wellness achievable and attainable,
and in order to achieve that there has to be understanding.
We can create habits and build habits and by doing
the same thing every single day. But if we don't
know mentally or understand mentally why we're doing the things
that we are doing and what we can do to
(09:23):
help combat those feelings or change the way we feel
and make it work for us, then we're not developing
that emotional self efficacy. And I think that that's what
the therapeutic experience is like. Right you go to therapy,
you're meant to The goal is not for you to
be in therapy forever. You're meant to learn and to
(09:43):
grow and to understand. Because once you learn, grow understand,
you're also at the same time you're getting those tools
that you can implement so you're able to recognize what's
going on with you emotionally and mentally, and then you're
able to draw from your own bank and mentors merise
of tools and things that you can do that you
know work for you to help improve your mood and
(10:06):
improve and emotionally regulate yourself. And I think that's that's
the same goal Nev shares with the therapeutic process.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yeah, and I want you to.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Talk to me before we started recording you talking about you.
I'm a non technical founder and disciplines. I know my stuff,
but like the technology is not my thing, and so
I wonder like how.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Like what was like the beta process?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Like how did you go through building software and not
necessarily being an engineer, but like how did you communicate
what you wanted to engineers?
Speaker 1 (10:41):
How did you go through trial and error, failure and progress?
How did you talk to me about that?
Speaker 3 (10:46):
You know, it's actually really funny. It's not really funny.
I know that collaboration and anything is so important. We
have a wonderful, wonderful developer and tech team their company
called Rush out of New Zealand and my business partners
actually out of New Zealand as well or Australia. I'm sorry.
(11:09):
And so we just had so many conversations, so many
really really long meetings of me trying to explain as
a therapist what we can have in the app and
why we can't do this and why this technology is
not fitting for this situation and as far as our
(11:30):
testing we did, we you know, going into this process,
I was advised to get very very clear about what
the user journey was going to be like and what
the experiences was going to be like. So from Aaron,
we invested a lot of money into actual testing, and
(11:51):
not just on the beta testing, but before we even
built the app, Before we developed the app and the features,
we created an idea of what we thought would work
based on a clinician led approach, and then we had
other test We had users put or testers try out
the app and give feedback. I think one of the
(12:14):
values of our of the app and the entire experience
has been everyone's willingness to collaborate and be open to
different ideas and communicate. I feel like when you're working
on a mental wellness app, even though there are so
many different people involved, I could they're probably more than
twenty five people who've worked on this app. I think
(12:36):
that everyone's willingness to listen and to understand and to
share perspectives and openness was really great. And because of
that safe environment we've been able to create as a team,
we were able to get the best feedback that we
could from our testers, from everyone involved in the project,
(12:58):
and that process was really really valuable to us. It's
something that we can we will continue through our founding
memberships and getting feedback and really understanding what the users
need and how we can better the app for them. So,
because it's like I say this all the time on
Instagram or wherever, like I'm literally building an app for us,
(13:19):
and I want users to understand and feel like they're
part of the journey. And if NEB is not, if
NEB is not meeting that qualification and actually being the
tool that we say that it is, then we want
to know that and we're going to improve. So feedback
and user testing has been really really valuable for us
(13:40):
as a as a company.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
You know, what are the KPIs that show you that
this thing is working or.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Is not working well? Number One, we have a lot
of founding members and people who are who are willing
to take a chance and pay a lot of money
to join this experience and be a part of our
(14:12):
growth and our app from the start. And I think
that people's investment in understanding not only in the app,
but their investment in themselves. People want to feel better,
people are searching for tools, and people are looking for
different things that they can do to help to improve
their lives. And I think that through our testing process
(14:36):
and through the amount of people that are showing up
and wanting to be a part of our journey without
even having seen the app yet. I think that's a
really big indicator that we are that this is something
that people are really seeking seeking.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
It appears to me that this is like a one
time payment.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Is can you talk about how your business model is
and if it's a one time payment, like how why did.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
You choose that overlight subscriptions and talk to me about
what it is.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
So this this is a great question because it kind
of ties into this whole idea of collaboration. It's not
a one time payment. It's a one time payment for
founding members and lifetime access. And that was a pre
launch promotion that we thought that we thought would be
best for us because we do want to get our
(15:30):
users feedback before we go to the masses. We do
want to collect that data. For us, data is gold,
and we want people who are genuinely invested in their
experience and in neby to give us the data and
the feedback and the surveys. And you know, if you
were to interview one of our founding members, they probably
(15:54):
are tired of us by now because the amount of
feedback we're gathering from their experience of being early users
on the app is helping us to improve the app
already before it's even gotten out to everyone else. So
I think that.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
That So that.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
Explains the founding members. The app is definitely going to
be a subscription model. It's thirteen ninety nine a month
or a one time or an annual payment, so it's
of ninety nine dollars.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Yeah, that's good. That's good. I'm curious, like how did
you learn to lead?
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Like, because you know, coming from you know, kind of
like a science psychology y'all know, you can explain like
the background, the more medical kind of background, and then
now you're in this chief you know, role business if
you build business before, So I don't want to like
you build this, I'm I.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Don't get used to it, So like how would you
want to do it? I'm how did I what?
Speaker 1 (17:01):
How did you learn to lead people and lead an enterprise?
Speaker 3 (17:07):
You know? So that's a really great and interesting question.
I don't see it as leading, Like I'm such a
collaborator anyone who you spoke to, anyone who's ever worked
with me. I think I know enough to know that
I don't know everything, and that I if I'm going
to be able to be the best or if anything
(17:29):
that I'm working on is going to be the best
that it could possibly be, that means that there are
going to be that I can't do it by myself, right,
Like I said, I'm not a tech This is my
first tech venture and I know nothing about tech, or
(17:50):
at least I know a little now. But I know
that putting the right people who share similar values in
place to build our team together, I think that's really important.
And I think it's a part of leadership is knowing
how to build a team that will work well together.
(18:12):
And you know, like I said, I come from a
sports family. I'm also a single, a sister to three
brothers and no sisters, So I feel like I've been
kind of leading and bossing my brothers around since I
stepped on this earth, you know. And so not only that,
(18:33):
but I come from a background playing sports and being
a part of a team and working towards a goal
and trying to and sacrificing things and utilizing what the
best of everyone and trying to pull out the best
of everyone in order to achieve one goal. And I
think that, like there's so many different things in my
(18:58):
life and my past and my history that attribute to
who I am and my approach to leading the team
that we have now. But at the end of the day,
I think that when people feel hurt and appreciated, then
they're going to give you their best foot forward.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
There's a stat that came out a couple of weeks
ago and the said twenty eight percent of people.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Are using AI or have used AI for therapy.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
At first, I want to get like your initial reaction
to that, and then talk about what implications that could have.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Oh my gosh, when I first saw that, I wasn't surprised,
but I was a little appalled. No, I think that
fortunately for mental health clinicians, I just don't believe that that.
I believe that as a human we have the best
(19:57):
opportunity to understand ourselves. And I think that the implications
about using chat GBT or AI for as a form
of therapy. There's no hippa in chat GBT, right, So
anything that you put any information that you share into
(20:20):
the world or into those those programs or that technology
is there for the grabbing. And I think that in
order to that's one of the beautiful things about the
therapeutic experience is that you know that it's a trusted environment,
and unfortunately, I don't believe that AI has quite gotten
(20:44):
to the point where it is a trusted environment. I
recently saw Sam sam Oh I should know this, Yeah,
I should know this as a tech entrepreneur. I saw
him having a conversation about how dangerous it is to
use AI as your therapist, and he obviously we know
(21:08):
who he is. And so I think that there's the
it lacks the the human touch number one, and I
think that it doesn't have the security and the safety
net around it quite yet. That doesn't mean it won't
happen in the future, but today it's it's not necessarily
a safe place. And also, again we're talking about the
(21:35):
values and the information of the people who are providing
that technology, and we don't know. There's no way to
know what information that AI is giving you and shooting
back out you, shooting it back out to you because
there's no person behind it, and the person you think
(21:55):
or it feels that you feel might be behind it
is not necessarily that's not a real thing.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Yeah, yeah, I wonder, because I've asked this question to
a couple of other founders recently, it's like, how do
you think about wealth, generational wealth and what you're building?
You know, because obviously, like you know, there is a
need for what you're building, but I imagine I guess
some point you have to feel like, Okay, the market
is there's a market opportunity also, and I wonder, like
(22:25):
how you think about that?
Speaker 3 (22:30):
Wow? I mean, I think that I'm extremely fortunate, and
I think that's part of the thing that makes me
special and the projects that I choose to work on
very special is that I try to approach everything without
(23:00):
the motivation of money because I have the luxury of
doing that. And when I'm able to do that, it
allows me to think clearly, I think and put more
intention behind what the actual impact I'm trying to create
(23:25):
will be rather than the financial gain. But when it
comes to generational wealth, I grew up a lower middle
class family and I always had what I needed. I
was a very I was very fortunate, and as a
(23:46):
mental health practitioner and a therapist my values. I just
placed my values in people like I truly do. I'm
sure there are a lot of things that that play
into that and my ability to do that, but emotional
(24:10):
emotional you know, safety and connection and love and compassion
and empathy and quality relationships. These are these are the
things that I I associate with wealth, time with loved ones.
(24:32):
And so I don't know what's going to happen, Like
that's not something that is at the forefront of my mind.
I'm young, it's not something now ask me, ask my
husband that same question, and he will have a totally
different answer. But we're I think maybe that's why we
go together, like there's some balance here whereas you know,
(24:55):
so I don't.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Know good, you know, I am. I think a lot about.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
We talked about like the gamification of apps, like in
the dopamine head and I want to go a little bit.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Deeper to there.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
You know, there are the reasons many apps are built
the way they are is because in order to get
you to open it, they got to think about what's
going to prompt like what are those triggers that make
you open this app? And for many of us, it's
that sugar USh, It's that you know, I'm going to
feel good when I get that notification. I'm going to
you know, somebody wants to talk to me, you know,
(25:30):
somebody's waiting for me that all the app is calling me.
What are the pressures you might feel to resist or
think alternatively about gamification in that way.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Well, this might sound interesting, but a part of our
strategy as a company is not to make people feel
as though they are in need of Nebi. Nebi is
(26:06):
not We are not trying to create Nebbe addictions. Neb
is built to help you grow and learn and understand
and apply simple things that you can do in your life.
And then there's gonna be a day where you don't
(26:26):
need nebb anymore. And that's where we are right now.
We will always focus on our why and making sure
that we're saying true to who we are. Of course
we're gonna grow, we're gonna change, we're gonna expand, but
there are certain things that we won't cross over into
because we're gonna always stay true to our values and
(26:49):
we're never it's when you open nebby, You're never gonna
feel foggy or cloudy or overwhelmed. That is not there
our intention. Our intention is to create simplicity and make
life easier. The dopamine that you're going to get from
(27:10):
using the app is not going to come from opening
the app. It's going to come from completing the task
that you get based on what you've locked and the
emotions that you've locked. You're going to feel better, but
you're going to generate that feeling better, not Nettie, not
the app. The app is just a tool to help
(27:30):
you live life outside of the phone. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
I've read in other places where you talked about you know,
things that you built are intentionally not for everybody. But
you know, I'm curious in how you consider user acquisition
when it's not for everybody.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
I think that research has shown that there are more
people now than ever and it will continue to grow
who are searching and in who are in search of
mental wellness tools and resources and apps. And I think
(28:13):
that we are building NEVI for the masses. It's accessible.
We want to be able to provide therapeutic like a
therapeutic like experience without the pressure of therapy, without the
financial costs and expenses of therapy, and also to go
(28:40):
along with therapy. I think that being able to appeal
meeting people where they are, meeting each individual where they are,
is our way of connecting and creating something that is
for everyone. Like I said, we're not all in crisis.
Everybody's not in right, we don't all need to call
(29:01):
nine one one. Nev is not your nine to one
one call. Don't if you're in a crisis with NEBBE
is not for you in that moment. It could be
used as a tool after how and NEBE is like
not necessarily for anyone who's constantly thriving, but who's constantly
thriving in this environment, in this society right across the world,
(29:25):
And so neb is built for everyone in between.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
What did you learn from reviews of your competitors products
or things that were already out there that helps you
shape the messaging that you guys, you know, communicate to
your perspective.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
I feel like something that was really consistent is that
there's a lot there's like an overwhelming amount of information
and wellness information, especially since COVID, there was like a
huge influx, you know. Number one, there's a lot of
a huge influx in reported depressions, anxiety and everything else.
(30:05):
Right due to isolation and many other factors, people are
searching for and seeking out that mental health support. And
we got really oversaturated with a lot of information. And
NEBBY is about clearing out the noise, like you're not
going to have a lot of noise from NEBBE, And
I think that what was missing that was one thing.
(30:32):
There's a lot of noise, not knowing who to trust,
what was real, what was actually going to work, and
also not having something that was too clinical or sterile.
I think there's still a lot of stigma around mental
health and wellness. So how do we create something that
(30:55):
feels more everyday and lifestyle and accessible without being overwhelming?
Sometimes there were other I hate talking. I'm such a
cheerleader of everyone. It's hard for me to even call
out a company. But I will give you an example.
There's a product where you can track everything, or it's
(31:17):
tracking everything for you. Everything is being tracked, you're being
told all this information for your like about yourself, but
you're not being told how to actually do anything about it,
like how do I fix that? How do I change that?
So if you're tracking tracking but nothing's changing, you're just
gathering data, like data without gathering data without action is
(31:41):
not necessarily as helpful. Or it's you're gaining education, but
you're not feeling better. It's not making me feel better. Right,
And there are apps where there's a lot of information,
and there's a lot of scrolling, and there's a lot
of content and everything is there. You just have to
go find it, right But who has time for that
(32:03):
when you're feeling overwhelmed, when you need a reset, when
you need like a quick something. Then that that's not
really tangible. It's not something that we would prioritize if
it feels like work, right, so keeping it. We wanted
to find something that that was simple and effective and
(32:28):
evidence based and real and felt like it could truly
be lifestyle, which is what wellness should be. We should
be incorporating mental wellness into our daily lives.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
And I think my I think my last question is
like me, because you touched on this a few times,
and I want.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
To ask more like directly.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
It's like there are there's training you have which is
like clinical in many ways, and now you're being thrust
even further there into entrepreneurship. Like you've been an entrepreneur,
like you've been building things, but like now you like
you like all it at this point. Yeah, Like what
is like the mental you know shift you've had to
(33:12):
make over the last few months or years on this journey.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Oh man, it's been a it's been a time. This
is probably my most expensive venture, which also naturally comes
with a lot of pressure but also time and energy.
To be the clinical lead for a mental wellness APP
(33:42):
is a big fee. I do have support where the
process of developing a clinical advisory board, But there's always
there's there's there's family, there's motherhood. There's just any imaginable distraction.
(34:02):
I live in Los Angeles. We're evacuated during the fires,
the fear, the chaos, the neighbors are friends. There's just
so many distracts. There's so many things constantly happening. And
then in the midst of building this app, over the
past year, more and more find trying to find some
(34:26):
peace and calm and actually implement the things that we
are trying to share in the app into my own life.
I think has been a challenge. But I do know
that there's a season, and I understand there's a season
for everything, and we go through different times in our
(34:50):
lives where we're going to be pooled in different directions,
and maybe in this time in my life has been
that direction, and I feel it feels good. It's very
rewarding work to build something that is meant to impact
people in such a positive way, it feels kind of
like worth the sacrifice.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Black Tech Green Money is a production to Blavity Afro
Tech on the Black Effect podcast network in Nighthearted Media.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
It's produced by Morgan Debonne and me Well Lucas, with
additional production support.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
By Kate McDonald and Jada McGee. Special thank you to
Michael Davis and Love Beach. Learn more about my guess
other tech disrupt that's an innovators at afrotech dot com.
Video version this episode will drop to Black Tech Green
Money on YouTube, So tap it in. Enjoy your Black
Tech Green Money shit us with somebody Go Get your money.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Peace and love,
Host
Will Lucas
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