Tré Baker is a serial entrepreneur, investor, and author dedicated to advancing Black economic leadership and fostering innovation. With a diverse portfolio of over 80 angel investments and extensive experience founding and operating companies across industries like renewable energy, blockchain, and consumer goods, Tré is a seasoned leader in the startup ecosystem. As the former Managing Director of the Build in Tulsa Techstars Accelerator, Tré championed early-stage companies and fostered an ecosystem of innovation in Tulsa's tight-knit and resource-rich startup community.
On this episode, Tré speaks with AfroTech’s Will Lucas about the role of AI in shaping Black economic self-determination, building sustainable startup communities, strategies for investing in pre-seed companies, and the lessons he’s learned from his entrepreneurial journey.
Follow Will Lucas on Instagram: @willlucas
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
I'm Will Lucas and this is black tech, Green money.
Trey Baker is a serial entrepreneur, investor, north and dedicated
to advancing black economic leadership and fostering innovation. And he's
the former managing director of the Building Tulsa text Oars Accelerator.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
He's got a.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Diverse portfolio of over eighty angel investments and extensive experience
founding and operating companies across industries like renewable energy, blockchain,
and consumer goods. One things for shore, two things for certain.
Trey is passionate about black economic self determination. When most
vcs pick a lane, you know, whether they're an invest
in you know, very new startups, pre.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Seed, seed stays.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Then you have others who picked you know, more mature startups,
a series bcs, et cetera. You decided to go early stage.
What is what was the driving decision behind that?
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Yeah, well, I'm actually reconsidering that decision. But I started
in early stage because I am a you know, I'm
a former founder, serial entrepreneur, and you know I fashioned
myself as one of those zero to one founders, right Like,
I'm really good at starting stuff. I've never been able
to get over that hump to like, you know, really
(01:15):
scale something massively, but really good at starting stuff. So
I figure I might as well help founders in the
place where I'm good at, right, And I'm also just
interested in bringing ideas into fruition versus helping you know,
more established companies, Like it's just not my personality type
(01:37):
to deal with larger organizations. So you know, less than
ten employees, I'm your guy, but more than that, I
probably am not even interested in helping, because you're if
you made it to that point, you've probably made it
beyond my ability to help. But also just looking at
it from a pure returns perspective, that you know, the
power law is most powerful at the earliest stage, is right,
(02:00):
So that's when you can get those one hundred x
thousand x returns when you're investing at very low valuations
in the early stages. So you know, I can invest
in one hundred companies and lose ninety nine times, and
that that that one winner could take care of the
losses from all the rest. So just so two, you know,
(02:21):
basically two reasons I personally like enjoy early stage more,
and I think from a returns perspective, the you know,
there's more upside potential there.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Yeah, and you know, at least by my last count,
you know, you have eighty plus investments, you know, and
with that, what patterns have you noticed are more prevalent
in startups that are successful versus struggling.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, man, it so.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
That number is actually doubled probably since whenever you saw
that number. So I'm I'm around one hundred and sixty
at this point. And what I didn't appreciate when I
first got started was, uh, the the importance of the
quality of the founders. You know, I thought you just
invest in a good idea and a good market and
(03:09):
that you know, the rest to take care of itself.
It's not like that at all, especially at the early stages.
The success of the companies are limited by the quality
of the founders, specifically the CEO. So you know CEOs
who are you know, intelligence is like basic everybody. You
got to have that baseline intelligence. But that's that's not enough.
(03:30):
You need somebody with high EQ that can deal with people,
that can communicate effectively, somebody who is resilient because you know,
especially the early days, shoot probably even all the way
up to I PO, being a startup founder is extremely difficult,
and if you haven't faced challenges in your life, you're
(03:50):
probably going.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
To give up.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
So I've had quite a few good businesses, right, like
business make perfect sense, good tech, good market, favorable market,
dynamic mix. And they you know, they lose because they quit,
they quit too soon and maybe had they you know,
had they stuck it out another three months, the market
would have corrected, and you know, they could have made
it out of whatever reut they were in. But it's
(04:13):
it's really the founder quality that separates the winners from
the losers. And you know, those those three I think
traits are most important. So being able to effectively communicate,
being resilient and being able to you know, face those challenges,
and then being highly adaptable. Right, So, like new information
is coming in all the time, data is changing all
(04:35):
the time, and you need to be able to have
a systematic process with which you can take in massive
amounts of data and make decisions right and not be
paralyzed by all the data, but actually make decisions.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
And when you know you.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Have hypothesis that are proven wrong in the market, you
can quickly pivot and adapt to the new circumstances.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
So think, you know, founder quality is number one.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
You know, there's an article you had written about investment
strategy where you said, my goal with this series of
articles is to get black investors to think about to
think at a systemic level, sort of like how you
would approach managing a sovereign wealth fund for which generating
financial returns are only one consideration. So talk to me
(05:23):
about what other considerations are important when investing and how
does that systemic approach translate to the work that you do.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Yeah, well, unfortunately it doesn't affect my day.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Well, my former day job.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
My last day at tech Stars was actually a couple
of weeks ago, so I'm no longer the managing director
of tech Stars Tulsa. But and part of the reasons
that platforms is not operating at a systemic enough level, right,
it's not.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
It wasn't big enough.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
But really, what I noticed in most investing, but especially
in private markets and and venture capital, is.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
The job of investors at a high level.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
So like when you're operating at a system level, when
you when you actually have you know, organized capital markets
and and you know your group is has actual power.
So if like a group of black investors had the
same power as for example, the PayPal mafia, we would
operate differently.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
And what I noticed is that they don't.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Necessarily pick winners like they they obviously they pick high
quality founders, good businesses, but they're not in the business
of picking winners.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
They're in the business of making winners. So as soon
as you know one of.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
The top tier vcs rights a check into your startup,
that's a signal to the rest of the market that
now you're you know, you're verified, you're you know, you
got the you're selected right, And then a bunch of
other doors start opening up. And we still operate under
the false assumption that meritocracy is an actual meritocracy is
(07:01):
a fairy tale.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Nobody gets ahead because only.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Of the quality of you know, their work, or their intelligence,
or you know their effort you have. This game is
more than most is a relationship game, and doors are
open because of who you know. I know plenty of
smart founders who are assholes that nobody wants to work with,
and they get nowhere because they don't have the relationships.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
So when you're operating, you.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Know, in a ecosystem with a more collective strategy. Now
I'm not saying that I don't know if the quote
unquote mainstream investors are deliberately doing this because the system
just work. But we have to actually be intentional about creating,
(07:49):
for lack of a better term, investment mafias, right, like
where we pick winners and we make them win using
the power of our relationships, connections, government relations, lobbying, ferts.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
I remember I read an article a few years ago
about how.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
The four to one hundred gets like two hundred x
return on their lobbying dollars. So every dollar they spend
on lobbying, they get two hundred dollars back in revenue
or income.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
And that's when I realized we're playing the wrong game.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
You know, if you can consistently generate those type of
returns based off lobbying, then we need to be doing
more of those activities.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
And that's and lobbying is only you.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Know, taking advantage of building and taking advantage of relationships.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
So if if the game is not about hating the players,
but the game, you know, so if you if there's
a game that has to be played, how do black
founders play it well so that you know, we can
hate the game and say, you know, it should be
a meritocracy. It should not be you know, just based
on who I know, but because it is how do
we win that game?
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Yeah, you know, one of the benefits of of going
through accelerators is getting access to those networks, especially the
top tier accelerator. So like, you know, one of the
selling points of tech Stars was, you know, access to
the tech Stars network and there's like twenty thousand founders, mentors,
investors in that network. Joining professional associations so like on
(09:20):
the black side would be like NESBY National Society of
Black Engineers, National Black NBA Association, getting yourself into rooms
where you can create relationships. And also as a startup founder,
I've seen a lot of success by from founders who
use thought leadership as as marketing strategy because you're not
(09:42):
only marketing to potential customers, you're marketing to potential investors
and potential employees as well. So the one too many
approach versus like you know, one of the conferences is
like one to one, like you got to meet individuals,
But establishing yourself as a thought leader on social media
is a one to many approach where you can get
in front of thousands or potentially millions of people at
(10:04):
once and building your personal brand. Now, for a lot
of startup founders, I know that's daunting because most of
us are introverts and we don't want to do it,
Like I don't actually want to be doing this podcast,
but like I need to do.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
It right, Like I don't like talking to people. I
don't like being a.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
I guess I'm a I would, I guess I'm like
a g List influencer of that a decent following.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
It's you know, I'm not on celebrity.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Status, but but I do it because it's a means
to an end and I have these ideas that I
need to get out and people seem to resonate with.
And I've seen, you know, some of the top founders
in my portfolio are really good at that. Or they
create systems to build the brand and community around the company.
So like creating a community versus a personnel being dependent
(10:56):
on your personal brand, and I've seen.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Both of those things.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Where so if you have a very ardent and you know,
uh loyal community, that can also help a lot. But
you know, getting connected to as many people as possible
increases your chances of success because it's likely that somebody
(11:21):
who you're connected to, is is going to be able
to help you when you need it?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Right?
Speaker 3 (11:25):
So, if I know a million people and I can
ask a million people of favor, that's better than asking one,
right because most likely somebody in that following is gonna
it's gonna be.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Able to help me.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Yeah, I know you're somebody who cares a lot about
community development also, And so when you're thinking about an investment,
how do you evaluate whether an investment specifically serves an
opportunistic return opportunity, opportunistic can return opportunity, or a strategic
community opportunity. How do you determine whether it serves either
(11:58):
or it doesn't matter?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, it does.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Matter, And obviously the ideal is both. Like if I
can get one that does both, then I'll prioritize that
kind of deal. But there are phases in terms of
like the economic development plan that I've laid out, and
right now I'm in a capital accumulation phase. So right
now I'm prioritizing anything that makes me the most money
(12:26):
personally and also the people around me, because one of
my other personal goals is helping to create at least
a thousand other black millionaires.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Right, So you know, I don't really care where.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
The money comes from as long as you know, legal
and people are hurting the process. So I'm not probably
not going to get into the you know, the the
weapons of mass destruction game, you know, or certain areas
of defense. But you know, so it kind of depends
on what phase you're in. The next phase is more
(12:58):
is more focused on strategic things. So for example, in
my book, I talk about the key areas of development,
so food, energy, water, defense, shelter. So like picking one
of those verticals and then taking it over. You know,
I've also got a soft spot for consumer goods, so like,
you know, we've got probably one hundred different black owned
(13:20):
soap companies.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
We probably don't need one hundred.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
We need two or three really big ones, right, So
like there's a consolidation play that can be run there.
And I don't know how much money is in the
soap game, but it's more about that. Those strategic investments
are more about job creation because also one one aspect
of political power is the number of jobs that you
(13:45):
can control, right, So that's why Home Depot and Delta
Airlines have so much power in the city of Atlanta
because they control thousands of jobs in that city, right,
So it's not only about financial returns for your shareholders,
it's also about the income you're generating for your employees,
and you know the third order effects of the community
(14:07):
around it.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
So if all of a.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Sudden, now I have, you know, a thousand extra above
average paying jobs in a community, those people now are
going out spending more money at restaurants and childcare services
and healthcare in it, and the knock on effects in
the rest of the economy expand out from there. So
I think mainly about one wealth building and financial returns,
(14:31):
but also job creation and the quality of those jobs too,
So you know, a thousand high paying jobs are better
than a thousand minimum wage jobs. And think about labor
force participation rates GDP contributions. So like all black owned
businesses contribute less than one percent of total GDP, which
means we're economically irrelevant and which is why people can
(14:56):
harm us politically, socially, economically with immunity, because we've built
no productive capacity, no base of productive capacity with which
to build a more stable power structure. So I think
about all those things when investing, but when I'm looking
at individual deals that usually doesn't factor in.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
It's like, does this fit into a.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Broader picture and does it offer potential expansion plays later on? Right, So,
like I make I might make three investments in three
competitors and try to roll them up. Yeah, and most
vcs don't won't do that, won't invest in direct competitors.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
You know, you're I'm not passionate about Tulsa, And I
think about, you know, how do smaller cities compete or
maybe not even compete, but learn from bigger cities, major
tech hubs without the same amount of resources that those
major tech hubs can accumulate and throw at an issue.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Yeah, I mean that's a that's a hard question. If
I had the answer all the answers, i'd probably be
in charge of more capital right now. But what I
have learned from Tulsa is the power of community and
of creating enough serendipitous and organic opportunities to connect for
(16:22):
people to connect. Right, So, Like, you don't always have
to have a meeting for a specific purpose.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
One thing that we're really good.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
At here is just having a bunch of random social
activities targeting you know, founders and business owners, and you
end up making a lot of useful connections just in
the random interactions that happen. But you know that's on
the economic connectivity side. In order to move the needle forward,
you have to be a little bit more attentional. And
(16:49):
I think smaller cities can compete on some fundamental things
like quality of life, like especially targeting certain demographics, like
people who are a little bit further along in their
careers and have you know, started families. Like most of
my adulthood was spent in Atlanta, and my you know,
(17:11):
twenties in Atlanta is completely different than you know, my
lifestyle now, and Tulsa suits my lifestyle more than you
know Atlanta does at the.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
At the moment, we might end up back in Atlanta,
but even you know, the.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
House that I still keep in Atlanta its way in
the suburbs, so like it's different.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
It's much different than when I was living in Atlantic Station.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
But creating place is very important, Like creating places where
people actually want to live and work is like probably
fifty percent of that, right, because like you're going to
have issues with retention if if you try to stick
people in places that are not cool to live and
they don't have basic.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Services like grocery store childcare.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
You're not going to build a thriving startup hub and
a food desert, right, So there's some like basic placemaking,
making things, and then you know, some other things like
making it easy to connect to customers and capital.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
So like New York is, you know, the wild West.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
You go out there, you just got to grind it
out and hope you make the right connections that make
it work. Whereas smaller cities have the benefit of you know,
there are probably entities that can get to everybody that matters, right,
Like in Tulsa, I can get to the mayor if
I need to.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
I don't you know, I've never needed to do that.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
But like I'm one phone call from a phone call
away from meeting the mayor of Tulsa. I'm probably several
years and many phone calls and meetings and donations away
from meeting the mayor of New York, you know. So
being able to use your smallness as a benefit to
connect entrepreneurs to sources of capital and most importantly, customers.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
So like chambers of commerce and small cities can.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Be very important for helping like, for example, a small startup,
a software startup who's targeting small construction businesses to those customers,
Whereas it's a little bit harder to make those connections.
Even though there's more of them exist in an ecosystem,
it's hard to actually get to the players that matter
in larger cities. So smaller cities can use their smallness
(19:13):
as an advantage to connect founders more efficiently to resources
in that community and then also getting more community support
around them, right because it's kind of like an underdog mentality,
and you know that that people can rally around these
these hometown heroes versus if you're another rich person in
New York, nobody.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Gives a fuck.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
No I think about you know, so I have a
private social club here. We we have a whole angle
for creating creating community for founders, and subset of that
is black founders. Obviously, so I should say obviously, but that's.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Part of it.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
And so I think a lot about physical space and
how physical space brings people together. And so because you
touched on you know, the using the smallness and leveraging
the smallness and creating events and you know, opportunities for
these I owns to get to know each other. Speak
more about what role physical space plays in building successful
startup communities.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Yeah, so one, developing physical spaces is also a valuable
economic activity and their returns to be made there, right,
So like being you know, building the store creates jobs,
Owning the store also creates jobs.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
So there's a whole economic development play just.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
In developing the lands, right, because the basis of all
wealth starts in land. Even data centers have to be
physically located somewhere, right, So one, there's economic activity.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
There and then two.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
One thing that has been beneficial and interesting about the
Tulsa ecosystem is that literally all the startup activity happens
within call it a ten square block radius, So like
can I can physically walk to everything that happens, right,
whether it's a meeting with the VC City Hall is
(21:00):
also a walking distance. If there's a happy hour of
targeting founders or demo day, pitch night, usually it's within
walking distance, right, And that.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
It doesn't seem like it would be that important.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
But if you think about it, it actually increases the amount
of activity that you can do in.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
A specific period of time.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
So if we've got people coming in from outside and
like they're turning the ecosystem, they can literally get more
meetings in or more events and more activity in the
same amount of time because they're spending less time in transit.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
And it seems trivial, But having.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Lived in Atlanta and dealt with Atlanta traffic, I could
tell you it is not. The amount of time you
spend in transit is not trivial, and it increases the
amount of activity that can happen for.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
An individual, but also for a community.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
So if like, hey, there's a demo day over here
and you know a happy hour over here, I can
probably make it to both right, whereas if one is
across town then that's impossible. So creating physical spaces that
are in close proximity and are walkable to not only
the you know, the business activities so the you know,
(22:09):
the founder happy are but also you know, if you
want to take a lunch meeting, or if there's you know, childcare,
so you're never too far from picking up or dropping
off your child. Like little things like that increase the
amount of social activity and social connectedness that can that
can happen in a community, and physical spaces are a
(22:30):
big part of that because these also need to be
housed in places that people actually want to go, like
a cool speakeasy versus just the random you know, chain
restaurant or bar, right, or like the you know, the
mom and pop food truck, you know, food truck Fridays
in the park in the local park is more interesting
(22:50):
than you know, just going meeting out a random Starbucks.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Right.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
So, these place making things are very important in the
physical spaces, and the people who create community around those
spaces are very important along with you know, creatives, because like,
nobody wants to be in a city without any culture
or art or music or you know, culinary arts.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Right. So, like those enabling factors make a.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Place desirable living, and then it's easier to you know,
it's slightly easier to deal with those hard days when
like you lost your biggest customer or you get kicked
in the teeth by an investor that told you your
idea is terrible and you should quit. Right, So being
in a cool place makes those days a little bit
easier to deal with, Whereas if you're in a also
(23:38):
a terrible place and you're having a terrible day, Yeah,
that doesn't help.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, you know, there's this line another line I read
that you wrote, and you said it is an inefficient
use of energy. It is an inefficient use of energy
to try and convince non black people to prioritize black
people in any area. And I really have question for that.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
What did you say more heavy? Yeah? Yeah, I mean
I feel like that's kind of self explanatory.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
But you know, there's another quote something like, you know,
you end up.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Wasting a lot of.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Energy trying to convince thing people of things that you
thought were obvious.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
And I think I can't remember who is Tony Morris.
I can't remember who said.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
That, but you know, because I used to get caught
up in a bunch of debates and they don't move
that don't move the conversation forward, and don't result in action,
and that's you know, we're way too far behind. We
got a fifteen trillion dollar wealth gap. We don't have
time to be arguing with people about stuff that should
be should be obvious. Like because I was just thinking
(24:52):
about this in the context of reparations, I I'm you know,
I'm doing a lot of work on reparations, but all
of my work is is focused on on how to
get it and then how to implement a reparations program.
I'm doing no work on proving that we should get it.
Like all that works one, it's already been done by
(25:12):
people much more qualified than me, Like you know, tansee codes.
Sandy William Derridy wrote a really good I think the
pivotal work called from Here to Equality. So if from
Here to Equality doesn't convince you that reparations is needed
and you know, and the amount of you know, the
(25:35):
amount that we should get, I'm not going to do that.
But for the people who do agree, both philosophically and practically,
that it's a necessary fight, I'm focused on that, and
my energy is better used on moving the ball forward
rather than arguing where to put the ball, yeah, or
whether the ball even exists. Some people don't even acknowledge
(25:57):
the existence of the problem. I don't have any words
for those people.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Yeah, how am my AI? You know, impact black economic
self determination?
Speaker 2 (26:09):
In your view? Man, this is a good question.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
I've been thinking a lot about AI and specifically automation
in the context of post labor economics, because I think sooner,
sooner than most people think, we're going to get to
a point where most human labor is unnecessary. And how
(26:34):
do we position ourselves to deal with that? Because if
we stay on the path that we're on, it's going
to create more inequality.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
It's only going to widen gaps.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
And if we don't have control the means of production
in that context. So how AI can affect the black
community specifically is one increasing our productivity, right, Like this
is a great equalized for example, Like I'm not I'm
a non technical founder. I don't know how to code,
(27:05):
but I've started to do some coding because AI enabled that.
And you know, I've always been the idea guy and
the product guy, so I'm really good at user experience
and user interface.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
But you know, I'm non technical, so I can't code.
Now I can.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
So now literally I can start and run an entire
company myself, which is my dream because I'm, like I said,
I'm an introvert, and dealing with employees it's the worst
part of growing a startup. So you can literally have
you know, one hundred million dollar, billion dollar businesses with
(27:41):
very few employees, which is a most good and a
bad thing.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Like your revenue per employee is going to be through
the roof.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
It's going to be amazing well generation opportunity, but it's
also going to displace a bunch of jobs. So we
need to put ourselves in a position to one not
only take advantage of these productivity tools as individuals increasing
our productivity, increasing our earning potential, but also collectively creating
(28:09):
systems where the wealth and the gains from that productivity
increase are actually distributed. So one very specific way to
do that is focusing more on employee and community owned
cooperative cooperatives and employee owned businesses, which one are you know,
(28:30):
studies have shown are actually more profitable and more resilient
because you know, for example, a factory that is owned
by its employees, it is not going to outsource its
jobs to China, right, so it's gonna be more resilient
source of jobs for that community. But also employees who
are owners have more of incentive to save the company
(28:51):
money or increase the company's efficiency, and that proves out
over time that employee owned businesses are more productive.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
So marrying the increased productivity.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Gains from AI and automation with an employee and you
know community ownership structure, like you know, you've got Sevenande
in Atlanta, which is a community owned grocery store. Like,
marrying those two things, I think not only can you
want to actually make us economically relevant, but also make
sure that the gains from that that increased productivity get
(29:24):
distributed more equitably than they would they otherwise would.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
But just for startup founders.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Like if you're not using AI on a day to
day basis and forcing your employees to, you're already falling behind.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
These tools are are wild and they're only getting more powerful.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
You know, ten years from now, I can't even predict
what the world's going to look like. It's going to
be insane if we don't destroy ourselves or just story
the planet.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah, yes, I have this, you know, personal philosophy about
you know, some black institutions. So I'll give you one
example or maybe two examples. So, like, you know, I
believe there's no reason the Black Church shouldn't be into
farming and banking, like we need to be collecting.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Like what are we doing if we're not speaking in
my language now?
Speaker 1 (30:12):
But like what are we doing if we're not teaching
people how to grow food and we're not helping them
in economics, if we just shouting on Sunday, were not
doing much? And so I'd like you to speak more
on the role traditional Black institutions should be playing in
economic development.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
Yeah, I'm definitely very critical of existing institutions as well,
but we can't just.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Burn them to the ground like they have.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
You know, institutional infrastructure that is valuable and that has
been developed over decades, and it'd be a shame for
that to go to waste. But so one very simple
thing that I've been proposed saying for years now is
that every black institution should have some mechanism to economically
(31:08):
organize their membership base.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
So it doesn't matter what the purpose of the organization is.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
You should have some type of mutual aid, investment club SUSU,
rotating loans, something that connects the membership economically and allows
them to invest in each other beyond just simply like
supporting each other's businesses if they they exist at all.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
So that's one like very easy, low hanging fruit.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
And churches are an easy way to organize that because
they're already meeting every week, right, you could include an
investment club meeting right after Bible study.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
So the infrastructure already exists.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
They already have a mechanism to collect money from everybody,
all the members.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
So that's one.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
And then you know, from churches in particular as all
get to professional organizations as well. But churches in particular,
most of them are sitting on some of the most
valuable real estate in the country, right and most of
it's being underutilized six or five days out of the week.
So increasing the utilization of the physical spaces, Like, it
(32:19):
doesn't make any sense to me that there are any
homeless or hungry people within you know, half a mile
RTUs of any church, So getting into that, you know,
urban farming, and maybe creating some halfway houses or some
type of living facilities next to or in the church,
(32:39):
using the church physical spaces for community events and meetings
that otherwise we have to pay for, for example, like
we host demo days and we always pay the venue
for that might as well like that, but so using
the physical spaces and organizing the membership economically, right, Like
(33:03):
it's not enough to just have social gatherings and pray
for each other, but actually investing each other and investing
in the communities. The same goes for like hpcus and
alumni networks. It doesn't make sense why all these HBCUs
are physically located in impoverish neighborhoods, Like the HPCU should
(33:23):
be a center of economic activity that expands out from it,
enabled by alumni networks who are also organized in investment
clubs and things like that.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
So you have the alumni.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
You know, all the AUC alumni should be invested, should
be partial owners of all the businesses that operate within
you know, a five mile radius of the AEC in Atlanta, Right,
same goes for professional organizations like you know, like NAACP
Nesby well INAAB is a civic organization, so like Nesby
(33:56):
National Black NBA Association, all the Divine nine.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
N PHC organizations. Similar thing.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
I know, the Omegas have a credit union, like every
every institution should have at least a credit union that's
low hanging fruit, an investment club organized locally, regionally and
nationally for all the organizations, and an official investment mechanism.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Right. Because all these nonprofits are sitting on piles of.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Cash, most of them have not organized them into endowments, right, Like,
that's how Ivy League universities can offer free tuition for
undergrads now because their endowments are so big, we need
to be focusing on growing permanent pools of capital that
kick off regular returns, right, So then our organizations can
(34:44):
then be self funding rather than having to go you know,
live hand the mouth and go out and fundraise every year.
And then you know, those funds typically come along with
strings attached, so which affects your politicals stances, the people
that you can endorse the policies that you support because
of the source of the money. So if we have
(35:07):
you know, permanently endowed all these institutions, then we can be.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
A little bit more.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
We have a little bit more sovereignty in terms of
how we operate and how we move and maybe we
upset some folks, but it doesn't matter because they don't
pay us.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
So these.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
These legacy organizations have one thing that we desperately need,
which is they've already organized the community.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Like that's the hardest part.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
That's like my biggest bottleneck is I don't I have
a loose following, but I haven't created a structure around it,
right whereas these these entities, and I don't feel like
I need to do that, Like I don't think the
world needs another black organization, Like we already have plenty
that are underutilized. So I'd rather support the you know,
(36:00):
so transformation of existing institutions and making them more effective
and starting my own, although I am reaching the limits
of my patient so I might end up starting something
just because I've been trying to work with existing people
and then it's frustrated for somebody who's as impatient as
I am.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Black Tech Green Money is a production to Blavity Afro
Tech on the Black Effect podcast Networking Night Hire Media.
It's produced by Morgan Debonne and me Well Lucas, with
addigital production support by Kate McDonald, Saya Ergan, and Jaden McGee.
Special thank you to Michael Davis and Love Beach. Learn
more about my guess other tech to show that's an
innovators at afrotech dot com. The video version of this
(36:39):
episode will drop to Black Tech Green Money on YouTube,
So tap in, enjoy your Black Tech Green Money, share
us to somebody go get your money. Peace and love,
I'm Will Lucas and this is black tech, Green money.
Trey Baker is a serial entrepreneur, investor, north and dedicated
to advancing black economic leadership and fostering innovation. And he's
the former managing director of the Building Tulsa text Oars Accelerator.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
He's got a.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Diverse portfolio of over eighty angel investments and extensive experience
founding and operating companies across industries like renewable energy, blockchain,
and consumer goods. One things for shore, two things for certain.
Trey is passionate about black economic self determination. When most
vcs pick a lane, you know, whether they're an invest
in you know, very new startups, pre.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Seed, seed stays.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Then you have others who picked you know, more mature startups,
a series bcs, et cetera. You decided to go early stage.
What is what was the driving decision behind that?
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Yeah, well, I'm actually reconsidering that decision. But I started
in early stage because I am a you know, I'm
a former founder, serial entrepreneur, and you know I fashioned
myself as one of those zero to one founders, right Like,
I'm really good at starting stuff. I've never been able
to get over that hump to like, you know, really
(01:15):
scale something massively, but really good at starting stuff. So
I figure I might as well help founders in the
place where I'm good at, right, And I'm also just
interested in bringing ideas into fruition versus helping you know,
more established companies, Like it's just not my personality type
(01:37):
to deal with larger organizations. So you know, less than
ten employees, I'm your guy, but more than that, I
probably am not even interested in helping, because you're if
you made it to that point, you've probably made it
beyond my ability to help. But also just looking at
it from a pure returns perspective, that you know, the
power law is most powerful at the earliest stage, is right,
(02:00):
So that's when you can get those one hundred x
thousand x returns when you're investing at very low valuations
in the early stages. So you know, I can invest
in one hundred companies and lose ninety nine times, and
that that that one winner could take care of the
losses from all the rest. So just so two, you know,
(02:21):
basically two reasons I personally like enjoy early stage more,
and I think from a returns perspective, the you know,
there's more upside potential there.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Yeah, and you know, at least by my last count,
you know, you have eighty plus investments, you know, and
with that, what patterns have you noticed are more prevalent
in startups that are successful versus struggling.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, man, it so.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
That number is actually doubled probably since whenever you saw
that number. So I'm I'm around one hundred and sixty
at this point. And what I didn't appreciate when I
first got started was, uh, the the importance of the
quality of the founders. You know, I thought you just
invest in a good idea and a good market and
(03:09):
that you know, the rest to take care of itself.
It's not like that at all, especially at the early stages.
The success of the companies are limited by the quality
of the founders, specifically the CEO. So you know CEOs
who are you know, intelligence is like basic everybody. You
got to have that baseline intelligence. But that's that's not enough.
(03:30):
You need somebody with high EQ that can deal with people,
that can communicate effectively, somebody who is resilient because you know,
especially the early days, shoot probably even all the way
up to I PO, being a startup founder is extremely difficult,
and if you haven't faced challenges in your life, you're
(03:50):
probably going.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
To give up.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
So I've had quite a few good businesses, right, like
business make perfect sense, good tech, good market, favorable market,
dynamic mix. And they you know, they lose because they quit,
they quit too soon and maybe had they you know,
had they stuck it out another three months, the market
would have corrected, and you know, they could have made
it out of whatever reut they were in. But it's
(04:13):
it's really the founder quality that separates the winners from
the losers. And you know, those those three I think
traits are most important. So being able to effectively communicate,
being resilient and being able to you know, face those challenges,
and then being highly adaptable. Right, So, like new information
is coming in all the time, data is changing all
(04:35):
the time, and you need to be able to have
a systematic process with which you can take in massive
amounts of data and make decisions right and not be
paralyzed by all the data, but actually make decisions.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
And when you know you.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Have hypothesis that are proven wrong in the market, you
can quickly pivot and adapt to the new circumstances.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
So think, you know, founder quality is number one.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
You know, there's an article you had written about investment
strategy where you said, my goal with this series of
articles is to get black investors to think about to
think at a systemic level, sort of like how you
would approach managing a sovereign wealth fund for which generating
financial returns are only one consideration. So talk to me
(05:23):
about what other considerations are important when investing and how
does that systemic approach translate to the work that you do.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Yeah, well, unfortunately it doesn't affect my day.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Well, my former day job.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
My last day at tech Stars was actually a couple
of weeks ago, so I'm no longer the managing director
of tech Stars Tulsa. But and part of the reasons
that platforms is not operating at a systemic enough level, right,
it's not.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
It wasn't big enough.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
But really, what I noticed in most investing, but especially
in private markets and and venture capital, is.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
The job of investors at a high level.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
So like when you're operating at a system level, when
you when you actually have you know, organized capital markets
and and you know your group is has actual power.
So if like a group of black investors had the
same power as for example, the PayPal mafia, we would
operate differently.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
And what I noticed is that they don't.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Necessarily pick winners like they they obviously they pick high
quality founders, good businesses, but they're not in the business
of picking winners.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
They're in the business of making winners. So as soon
as you know one of.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
The top tier vcs rights a check into your startup,
that's a signal to the rest of the market that
now you're you know, you're verified, you're you know, you
got the you're selected right, And then a bunch of
other doors start opening up. And we still operate under
the false assumption that meritocracy is an actual meritocracy is
(07:01):
a fairy tale.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Nobody gets ahead because only.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Of the quality of you know, their work, or their intelligence,
or you know their effort you have. This game is
more than most is a relationship game, and doors are
open because of who you know. I know plenty of
smart founders who are assholes that nobody wants to work with,
and they get nowhere because they don't have the relationships.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
So when you're operating, you.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Know, in a ecosystem with a more collective strategy. Now
I'm not saying that I don't know if the quote
unquote mainstream investors are deliberately doing this because the system
just work. But we have to actually be intentional about creating,
(07:49):
for lack of a better term, investment mafias, right, like
where we pick winners and we make them win using
the power of our relationships, connections, government relations, lobbying, ferts.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
I remember I read an article a few years ago
about how.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
The four to one hundred gets like two hundred x
return on their lobbying dollars. So every dollar they spend
on lobbying, they get two hundred dollars back in revenue
or income.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
And that's when I realized we're playing the wrong game.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
You know, if you can consistently generate those type of
returns based off lobbying, then we need to be doing
more of those activities.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
And that's and lobbying is only you.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Know, taking advantage of building and taking advantage of relationships.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
So if if the game is not about hating the players,
but the game, you know, so if you if there's
a game that has to be played, how do black
founders play it well so that you know, we can
hate the game and say, you know, it should be
a meritocracy. It should not be you know, just based
on who I know, but because it is how do
we win that game?
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Yeah, you know, one of the benefits of of going
through accelerators is getting access to those networks, especially the
top tier accelerator. So like, you know, one of the
selling points of tech Stars was, you know, access to
the tech Stars network and there's like twenty thousand founders, mentors,
investors in that network. Joining professional associations so like on
(09:20):
the black side would be like NESBY National Society of
Black Engineers, National Black NBA Association, getting yourself into rooms
where you can create relationships. And also as a startup founder,
I've seen a lot of success by from founders who
use thought leadership as as marketing strategy because you're not
(09:42):
only marketing to potential customers, you're marketing to potential investors
and potential employees as well. So the one too many
approach versus like you know, one of the conferences is
like one to one, like you got to meet individuals,
But establishing yourself as a thought leader on social media
is a one to many approach where you can get
in front of thousands or potentially millions of people at
(10:04):
once and building your personal brand. Now, for a lot
of startup founders, I know that's daunting because most of
us are introverts and we don't want to do it,
Like I don't actually want to be doing this podcast,
but like I need to do.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
It right, Like I don't like talking to people. I
don't like being a.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
I guess I'm a I would, I guess I'm like
a g List influencer of that a decent following.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
It's you know, I'm not on celebrity.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Status, but but I do it because it's a means
to an end and I have these ideas that I
need to get out and people seem to resonate with.
And I've seen, you know, some of the top founders
in my portfolio are really good at that. Or they
create systems to build the brand and community around the company.
So like creating a community versus a personnel being dependent
(10:56):
on your personal brand, and I've seen.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Both of those things.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Where so if you have a very ardent and you know,
uh loyal community, that can also help a lot. But
you know, getting connected to as many people as possible
increases your chances of success because it's likely that somebody
(11:21):
who you're connected to, is is going to be able
to help you when you need it?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Right?
Speaker 3 (11:25):
So, if I know a million people and I can
ask a million people of favor, that's better than asking one,
right because most likely somebody in that following is gonna
it's gonna be.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Able to help me.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Yeah, I know you're somebody who cares a lot about
community development also, And so when you're thinking about an investment,
how do you evaluate whether an investment specifically serves an
opportunistic return opportunity, opportunistic can return opportunity, or a strategic
community opportunity. How do you determine whether it serves either
(11:58):
or it doesn't matter?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, it does.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Matter, And obviously the ideal is both. Like if I
can get one that does both, then I'll prioritize that
kind of deal. But there are phases in terms of
like the economic development plan that I've laid out, and
right now I'm in a capital accumulation phase. So right
now I'm prioritizing anything that makes me the most money
(12:26):
personally and also the people around me, because one of
my other personal goals is helping to create at least
a thousand other black millionaires.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Right, So you know, I don't really care where.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
The money comes from as long as you know, legal
and people are hurting the process. So I'm not probably
not going to get into the you know, the the
weapons of mass destruction game, you know, or certain areas
of defense. But you know, so it kind of depends
on what phase you're in. The next phase is more
(12:58):
is more focused on strategic things. So for example, in
my book, I talk about the key areas of development,
so food, energy, water, defense, shelter. So like picking one
of those verticals and then taking it over. You know,
I've also got a soft spot for consumer goods, so like,
you know, we've got probably one hundred different black owned
(13:20):
soap companies.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
We probably don't need one hundred.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
We need two or three really big ones, right, So
like there's a consolidation play that can be run there.
And I don't know how much money is in the
soap game, but it's more about that. Those strategic investments
are more about job creation because also one one aspect
of political power is the number of jobs that you
(13:45):
can control, right, So that's why Home Depot and Delta
Airlines have so much power in the city of Atlanta
because they control thousands of jobs in that city, right,
So it's not only about financial returns for your shareholders,
it's also about the income you're generating for your employees,
and you know the third order effects of the community
(14:07):
around it.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
So if all of a.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Sudden, now I have, you know, a thousand extra above
average paying jobs in a community, those people now are
going out spending more money at restaurants and childcare services
and healthcare in it, and the knock on effects in
the rest of the economy expand out from there. So
I think mainly about one wealth building and financial returns,
(14:31):
but also job creation and the quality of those jobs too,
So you know, a thousand high paying jobs are better
than a thousand minimum wage jobs. And think about labor
force participation rates GDP contributions. So like all black owned
businesses contribute less than one percent of total GDP, which
means we're economically irrelevant and which is why people can
(14:56):
harm us politically, socially, economically with immunity, because we've built
no productive capacity, no base of productive capacity with which
to build a more stable power structure. So I think
about all those things when investing, but when I'm looking
at individual deals that usually doesn't factor in.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
It's like, does this fit into a.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Broader picture and does it offer potential expansion plays later on? Right, So,
like I make I might make three investments in three
competitors and try to roll them up. Yeah, and most
vcs don't won't do that, won't invest in direct competitors.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
You know, you're I'm not passionate about Tulsa, And I
think about, you know, how do smaller cities compete or
maybe not even compete, but learn from bigger cities, major
tech hubs without the same amount of resources that those
major tech hubs can accumulate and throw at an issue.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Yeah, I mean that's a that's a hard question. If
I had the answer all the answers, i'd probably be
in charge of more capital right now. But what I
have learned from Tulsa is the power of community and
of creating enough serendipitous and organic opportunities to connect for
(16:22):
people to connect. Right, So, Like, you don't always have
to have a meeting for a specific purpose.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
One thing that we're really good.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
At here is just having a bunch of random social
activities targeting you know, founders and business owners, and you
end up making a lot of useful connections just in
the random interactions that happen. But you know that's on
the economic connectivity side. In order to move the needle forward,
you have to be a little bit more attentional. And
(16:49):
I think smaller cities can compete on some fundamental things
like quality of life, like especially targeting certain demographics, like
people who are a little bit further along in their
careers and have you know, started families. Like most of
my adulthood was spent in Atlanta, and my you know,
(17:11):
twenties in Atlanta is completely different than you know, my
lifestyle now, and Tulsa suits my lifestyle more than you
know Atlanta does at the.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
At the moment, we might end up back in Atlanta,
but even you know, the.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
House that I still keep in Atlanta its way in
the suburbs, so like it's different.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
It's much different than when I was living in Atlantic Station.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
But creating place is very important, Like creating places where
people actually want to live and work is like probably
fifty percent of that, right, because like you're going to
have issues with retention if if you try to stick
people in places that are not cool to live and
they don't have basic.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Services like grocery store childcare.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
You're not going to build a thriving startup hub and
a food desert, right, So there's some like basic placemaking,
making things, and then you know, some other things like
making it easy to connect to customers and capital.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
So like New York is, you know, the wild West.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
You go out there, you just got to grind it
out and hope you make the right connections that make
it work. Whereas smaller cities have the benefit of you know,
there are probably entities that can get to everybody that matters, right,
Like in Tulsa, I can get to the mayor if
I need to.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
I don't you know, I've never needed to do that.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
But like I'm one phone call from a phone call
away from meeting the mayor of Tulsa. I'm probably several
years and many phone calls and meetings and donations away
from meeting the mayor of New York, you know. So
being able to use your smallness as a benefit to
connect entrepreneurs to sources of capital and most importantly, customers.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
So like chambers of commerce and small cities can.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Be very important for helping like, for example, a small startup,
a software startup who's targeting small construction businesses to those customers,
Whereas it's a little bit harder to make those connections.
Even though there's more of them exist in an ecosystem,
it's hard to actually get to the players that matter
in larger cities. So smaller cities can use their smallness
(19:13):
as an advantage to connect founders more efficiently to resources
in that community and then also getting more community support
around them, right because it's kind of like an underdog mentality,
and you know that that people can rally around these
these hometown heroes versus if you're another rich person in
New York, nobody.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Gives a fuck.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
No I think about you know, so I have a
private social club here. We we have a whole angle
for creating creating community for founders, and subset of that
is black founders. Obviously, so I should say obviously, but that's.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Part of it.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
And so I think a lot about physical space and
how physical space brings people together. And so because you
touched on you know, the using the smallness and leveraging
the smallness and creating events and you know, opportunities for
these I owns to get to know each other. Speak
more about what role physical space plays in building successful
startup communities.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Yeah, so one, developing physical spaces is also a valuable
economic activity and their returns to be made there, right,
So like being you know, building the store creates jobs,
Owning the store also creates jobs.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
So there's a whole economic development play just.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
In developing the lands, right, because the basis of all
wealth starts in land. Even data centers have to be
physically located somewhere, right, So one, there's economic activity.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
There and then two.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
One thing that has been beneficial and interesting about the
Tulsa ecosystem is that literally all the startup activity happens
within call it a ten square block radius, So like
can I can physically walk to everything that happens, right,
whether it's a meeting with the VC City Hall is
(21:00):
also a walking distance. If there's a happy hour of
targeting founders or demo day, pitch night, usually it's within
walking distance, right, And that.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
It doesn't seem like it would be that important.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
But if you think about it, it actually increases the amount
of activity that you can do in.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
A specific period of time.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
So if we've got people coming in from outside and
like they're turning the ecosystem, they can literally get more
meetings in or more events and more activity in the
same amount of time because they're spending less time in transit.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
And it seems trivial, But having.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Lived in Atlanta and dealt with Atlanta traffic, I could
tell you it is not. The amount of time you
spend in transit is not trivial, and it increases the
amount of activity that can happen for.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
An individual, but also for a community.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
So if like, hey, there's a demo day over here
and you know a happy hour over here, I can
probably make it to both right, whereas if one is
across town then that's impossible. So creating physical spaces that
are in close proximity and are walkable to not only
the you know, the business activities so the you know,
(22:09):
the founder happy are but also you know, if you
want to take a lunch meeting, or if there's you know, childcare,
so you're never too far from picking up or dropping
off your child. Like little things like that increase the
amount of social activity and social connectedness that can that
can happen in a community, and physical spaces are a
(22:30):
big part of that because these also need to be
housed in places that people actually want to go, like
a cool speakeasy versus just the random you know, chain
restaurant or bar, right, or like the you know, the
mom and pop food truck, you know, food truck Fridays
in the park in the local park is more interesting
(22:50):
than you know, just going meeting out a random Starbucks.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Right.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
So, these place making things are very important in the
physical spaces, and the people who create community around those
spaces are very important along with you know, creatives, because like,
nobody wants to be in a city without any culture
or art or music or you know, culinary arts.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Right. So, like those enabling factors make a.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Place desirable living, and then it's easier to you know,
it's slightly easier to deal with those hard days when
like you lost your biggest customer or you get kicked
in the teeth by an investor that told you your
idea is terrible and you should quit. Right, So being
in a cool place makes those days a little bit
easier to deal with, Whereas if you're in a also
(23:38):
a terrible place and you're having a terrible day, Yeah,
that doesn't help.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, you know, there's this line another line I read
that you wrote, and you said it is an inefficient
use of energy. It is an inefficient use of energy
to try and convince non black people to prioritize black
people in any area. And I really have question for that.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
What did you say more heavy? Yeah? Yeah, I mean
I feel like that's kind of self explanatory.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
But you know, there's another quote something like, you know,
you end up.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Wasting a lot of.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Energy trying to convince thing people of things that you
thought were obvious.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
And I think I can't remember who is Tony Morris.
I can't remember who said.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
That, but you know, because I used to get caught
up in a bunch of debates and they don't move
that don't move the conversation forward, and don't result in action,
and that's you know, we're way too far behind. We
got a fifteen trillion dollar wealth gap. We don't have
time to be arguing with people about stuff that should
be should be obvious. Like because I was just thinking
(24:52):
about this in the context of reparations, I I'm you know,
I'm doing a lot of work on reparations, but all
of my work is is focused on on how to
get it and then how to implement a reparations program.
I'm doing no work on proving that we should get it.
Like all that works one, it's already been done by
(25:12):
people much more qualified than me, Like you know, tansee codes.
Sandy William Derridy wrote a really good I think the
pivotal work called from Here to Equality. So if from
Here to Equality doesn't convince you that reparations is needed
and you know, and the amount of you know, the
(25:35):
amount that we should get, I'm not going to do that.
But for the people who do agree, both philosophically and practically,
that it's a necessary fight, I'm focused on that, and
my energy is better used on moving the ball forward
rather than arguing where to put the ball, yeah, or
whether the ball even exists. Some people don't even acknowledge
(25:57):
the existence of the problem. I don't have any words
for those people.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Yeah, how am my AI? You know, impact black economic
self determination?
Speaker 2 (26:09):
In your view? Man, this is a good question.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
I've been thinking a lot about AI and specifically automation
in the context of post labor economics, because I think sooner,
sooner than most people think, we're going to get to
a point where most human labor is unnecessary. And how
(26:34):
do we position ourselves to deal with that? Because if
we stay on the path that we're on, it's going
to create more inequality.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
It's only going to widen gaps.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
And if we don't have control the means of production
in that context. So how AI can affect the black
community specifically is one increasing our productivity, right, Like this
is a great equalized for example, Like I'm not I'm
a non technical founder. I don't know how to code,
(27:05):
but I've started to do some coding because AI enabled that.
And you know, I've always been the idea guy and
the product guy, so I'm really good at user experience
and user interface.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
But you know, I'm non technical, so I can't code.
Now I can.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
So now literally I can start and run an entire
company myself, which is my dream because I'm, like I said,
I'm an introvert, and dealing with employees it's the worst
part of growing a startup. So you can literally have
you know, one hundred million dollar, billion dollar businesses with
(27:41):
very few employees, which is a most good and a
bad thing.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Like your revenue per employee is going to be through
the roof.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
It's going to be amazing well generation opportunity, but it's
also going to displace a bunch of jobs. So we
need to put ourselves in a position to one not
only take advantage of these productivity tools as individuals increasing
our productivity, increasing our earning potential, but also collectively creating
(28:09):
systems where the wealth and the gains from that productivity
increase are actually distributed. So one very specific way to
do that is focusing more on employee and community owned
cooperative cooperatives and employee owned businesses, which one are you know,
(28:30):
studies have shown are actually more profitable and more resilient
because you know, for example, a factory that is owned
by its employees, it is not going to outsource its
jobs to China, right, so it's gonna be more resilient
source of jobs for that community. But also employees who
are owners have more of incentive to save the company
(28:51):
money or increase the company's efficiency, and that proves out
over time that employee owned businesses are more productive.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
So marrying the increased productivity.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Gains from AI and automation with an employee and you
know community ownership structure, like you know, you've got Sevenande
in Atlanta, which is a community owned grocery store. Like,
marrying those two things, I think not only can you
want to actually make us economically relevant, but also make
sure that the gains from that that increased productivity get
(29:24):
distributed more equitably than they would they otherwise would.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
But just for startup founders.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Like if you're not using AI on a day to
day basis and forcing your employees to, you're already falling behind.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
These tools are are wild and they're only getting more powerful.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
You know, ten years from now, I can't even predict
what the world's going to look like. It's going to
be insane if we don't destroy ourselves or just story
the planet.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah, yes, I have this, you know, personal philosophy about
you know, some black institutions. So I'll give you one
example or maybe two examples. So, like, you know, I
believe there's no reason the Black Church shouldn't be into
farming and banking, like we need to be collecting.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Like what are we doing if we're not speaking in
my language now?
Speaker 1 (30:12):
But like what are we doing if we're not teaching
people how to grow food and we're not helping them
in economics, if we just shouting on Sunday, were not
doing much? And so I'd like you to speak more
on the role traditional Black institutions should be playing in
economic development.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
Yeah, I'm definitely very critical of existing institutions as well,
but we can't just.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Burn them to the ground like they have.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
You know, institutional infrastructure that is valuable and that has
been developed over decades, and it'd be a shame for
that to go to waste. But so one very simple
thing that I've been proposed saying for years now is
that every black institution should have some mechanism to economically
(31:08):
organize their membership base.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
So it doesn't matter what the purpose of the organization is.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
You should have some type of mutual aid, investment club SUSU,
rotating loans, something that connects the membership economically and allows
them to invest in each other beyond just simply like
supporting each other's businesses if they they exist at all.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
So that's one like very easy, low hanging fruit.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
And churches are an easy way to organize that because
they're already meeting every week, right, you could include an
investment club meeting right after Bible study.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
So the infrastructure already exists.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
They already have a mechanism to collect money from everybody,
all the members.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
So that's one.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
And then you know, from churches in particular as all
get to professional organizations as well. But churches in particular,
most of them are sitting on some of the most
valuable real estate in the country, right and most of
it's being underutilized six or five days out of the week.
So increasing the utilization of the physical spaces, Like, it
(32:19):
doesn't make any sense to me that there are any
homeless or hungry people within you know, half a mile
RTUs of any church, So getting into that, you know,
urban farming, and maybe creating some halfway houses or some
type of living facilities next to or in the church,
(32:39):
using the church physical spaces for community events and meetings
that otherwise we have to pay for, for example, like
we host demo days and we always pay the venue
for that might as well like that, but so using
the physical spaces and organizing the membership economically, right, Like
(33:03):
it's not enough to just have social gatherings and pray
for each other, but actually investing each other and investing
in the communities. The same goes for like hpcus and
alumni networks. It doesn't make sense why all these HBCUs
are physically located in impoverish neighborhoods, Like the HPCU should
(33:23):
be a center of economic activity that expands out from it,
enabled by alumni networks who are also organized in investment
clubs and things like that.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
So you have the alumni.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
You know, all the AUC alumni should be invested, should
be partial owners of all the businesses that operate within
you know, a five mile radius of the AEC in Atlanta, Right,
same goes for professional organizations like you know, like NAACP
Nesby well INAAB is a civic organization, so like Nesby
(33:56):
National Black NBA Association, all the Divine nine.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
N PHC organizations. Similar thing.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
I know, the Omegas have a credit union, like every
every institution should have at least a credit union that's
low hanging fruit, an investment club organized locally, regionally and
nationally for all the organizations, and an official investment mechanism.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Right. Because all these nonprofits are sitting on piles of.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Cash, most of them have not organized them into endowments, right, Like,
that's how Ivy League universities can offer free tuition for
undergrads now because their endowments are so big, we need
to be focusing on growing permanent pools of capital that
kick off regular returns, right, So then our organizations can
(34:44):
then be self funding rather than having to go you know,
live hand the mouth and go out and fundraise every year.
And then you know, those funds typically come along with
strings attached, so which affects your politicals stances, the people
that you can endorse the policies that you support because
of the source of the money. So if we have
(35:07):
you know, permanently endowed all these institutions, then we can be.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
A little bit more.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
We have a little bit more sovereignty in terms of
how we operate and how we move and maybe we
upset some folks, but it doesn't matter because they don't
pay us.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
So these.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
These legacy organizations have one thing that we desperately need,
which is they've already organized the community.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Like that's the hardest part.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
That's like my biggest bottleneck is I don't I have
a loose following, but I haven't created a structure around it,
right whereas these these entities, and I don't feel like
I need to do that, Like I don't think the
world needs another black organization, Like we already have plenty
that are underutilized. So I'd rather support the you know,
(36:00):
so transformation of existing institutions and making them more effective
and starting my own, although I am reaching the limits
of my patient so I might end up starting something
just because I've been trying to work with existing people
and then it's frustrated for somebody who's as impatient as
I am.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Black Tech Green Money is a production to Blavity Afro
Tech on the Black Effect podcast Networking Night Hire Media.
It's produced by Morgan Debonne and me Well Lucas, with
addigital production support by Kate McDonald, Saya Ergan, and Jaden McGee.
Special thank you to Michael Davis and Love Beach. Learn
more about my guess other tech to show that's an
innovators at afrotech dot com. The video version of this
(36:39):
episode will drop to Black Tech Green Money on YouTube,
So tap in, enjoy your Black Tech Green Money, share
us to somebody go get your money. Peace and love,
Host
Will Lucas
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