July 1, 2025 • 47 mins
In this episode, New York Times bestselling author George M. Johnson joins Jacquees Thomas for a powerful conversation about identity, imagination, and the role of literature in shaping culture. George reflects on their upbringing in New Jersey, the strength of family support, and how writing became both a refuge and a form of rebellion.
Together, they explore the challenges of being a queer writer, the importance of storytelling across generations, and the urgent need to foster empathy—especially in a time of rising book bans and societal censorship. From generational shifts to the evolving understanding of gender and identity, this conversation dives deep into how literature can challenge norms, affirm truths, and spark collective healing.
At its core, this episode is about the radical act of writing with authenticity—and the freedom that comes from owning your story.
Connect @_thatsPeace @iamgmjohnson
Read: All Boys Aren't Blue and Flamboyants
Listen: Fighting Words
Learn More: About George M Johnson
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
My name is Jacquees Thomas, and you're listening to Black Lit,
a podcast about black literature and the stories behind the storytellers.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hello. My name is George M. Johnson.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
I am a New York Times bestselling author of the
book All Boys Aren't Blue. I've also written two additional books,
We Are Not Broken, which is about my grandmother and
her story of helping to raise myself and my younger
brother and my two cousins, as well as my third
book that came out in September, Flamboyant, which discusses the
(00:40):
queerness of the Carlem Renaissance. I use dy them pronouns,
but pronounce to me. I get called he, she they
So I'm cool with everything.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Well, thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
I love that. That was a great intro.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
He's like New York Times bestselling author. Let's let's let
that sink in for a second. That's really dope. It's
really beautiful to have you on the podcast to join
us today. I got it clear to air. To start first,
and foremost, how do you still feel about New Jersey.
I'm a Jersey girls, I need to know.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I'm from the city of Plainfield, New Jersey. My whole
family primarily is still there, like mom, aunt's dad, younger brother, nephews, cousins,
like I still have a lot of family in Plainfield,
so I still.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Visit a lot. I love being from New Jersey.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
I think people assume that, you know, like New Jersey
and New York is like the same culture, Like we
do have a shared culture, Like we definitely have a
shared culture, but New Jersey definitely has its own identity,
and so I enjoy the identity of being from New Jersey.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Okay, because as well I was reading All Boys Aren't Blue,
it was definitely get out of New Jersey asap. I
never turn and look back ever again.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Yeah, growing up, I didn't like it, so that's the truth.
But I don't think it was the state. It was
just more so like I just didn't feel like I
fit in, Like I didn't have.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
A friend group. Really I have friends, but it never
was really like a part of a group or anything.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
And so I primarily in my family, I'm like the explorer.
I feel like everybody has like that one person that's
like the explorer of the family. So I travel a
lot currently, but I also with the school in a
different state, and I've lived in several States, you know,
but New Jersey is always gonna be on, and I
have a depreciation for New Jersey now that I probably
(02:42):
didn't have growing up that I will soon be writing about.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Okay, so another another memoir coming soon or.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Yeah, yeah, we haven't announced it yet, but yes, it
will be announceding, So so stay tuned.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Something that stood out to me which I thought was
really beautiful. There's two things, actually, but I'll start with
this one. Flamboyants. The first writer the firstliminary which we
actually just finished doing episodes, and here at the Black
lit on is Lanxon Hughes. Yes, and he wrote his
memoir at a very early young age as well. So
I thought that was very interesting that there was that
(03:20):
compatibility between the two of you. Yeah, what made you
feel like, Okay, I'm thirty three when you wrote right
when you read Our Boys and a flu What made
you feel like, Oh, I have a story to tell
at this age and I'm ready to tell it. What
gave you that strength?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:38):
During the time, there were several queer memoirs that had
come out, one by Darnutt Moore, one by Michael.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Arseno, one by Saie Jones.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
There were a lot of like quick Memoirrists and all
of their books were so amazing, and I was a journalist.
I'm still technically a journalist, but I was mainly doing
freelance writing at the time, and something like I know,
it was like a spirit was invoked in me to
be like, you know, like I love these stories, but
I also want to, you know, tell my own, but
(04:06):
I want to gear it towards an audience that doesn't
typically get memoirs right, Like memoir seems like a very
adult thing, but I think about, you know, as a
young adult when you're looking for something to grasp onto
that gives a semblance of your life or which you
may be going through, that memoir is a great path
(04:27):
for someone, especially if the memoir is focused on those
teenage years and the young adult years. And so for me,
I just felt like, I want to tell this story,
but I also want to not just write a story
for the who we are now, but write a story
to the inner child. Like let like letting my inner
child write the story in a sense. And I always say,
(04:50):
it wasn't like thirty three year old me that was
writing this story. It really was my inner child who
now had the words to be able to write the story.
And so I think that the book connected a lot
with a wide range of audiences because it didn't matter
what age you were, we all still have that inner child. Yeah,
And I felt that the book spoke a lot to
(05:12):
the inner child.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
So you wrote it, or you allowed your inner voice,
your inner child to basically give that inner child of
voice to speak and tell the story of your upbringing.
We're here to talk about all boys, aren't flu. But
there was something that also set out to me in
Flamboyance was there was an essay where you wrote, why
do I write?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (05:36):
I mean that's repeated a couple of times. Can you
answer that? Why? Why? Why? Through writing? Why is this
your medium of choice? Yes?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Interesting, writing is the one thing that stands the test
of time. I feel like I feel like there's always
a new medium being invented. You know, whether it was
radio and then it was television, and then it was
you know, the transformation of music from eight tracks to
(06:06):
cassettes to CDs to well actually vinyls to eight tracks
to cassettes to CDs to streaming. Right, Like, there's always
like this building thing podcasting, Like we're always building some
type of new medium social media, but writing in books,
They've been here for thousands of years, right, And I
feel like there's just a calling for some of us
(06:28):
to want a chronicle history in that way, and when
a chronicle a time period through writing, and I think
writing has always led to the adaptation of every other avenue.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Right.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
It's like some TV shows are created based off of
the adaptation of a book. We also do audio books, right,
so that you can hear the voice of the of
the writer.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
At times.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Movies are adaptations of books, right, like so many things
Broadway plays are adaptations of books. Like so many things
come from just writing it down that sparks so many
other ideas and so many other interests.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
But you have to have.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Those people who do the book writing, who tell the stories.
And I felt that I came from a family, specifically
my grandmother she was a great storyteller. My aunt Margaret
was the best storyteller. And so it's like when you
come from a family of oral storytellers, it then became
my job to write it down, right, And so I
felt like it was part part spiritual, but also part
(07:30):
like part of my purpose was like they weren't just
telling me these stories, just so I had them. They
were telling me these stories to make sure that I
shared them with the world, right, because people in the
physical body you pass away, but as long as the
story is written down, then those people actually never die
because their story is always out there and people could
(07:52):
think he reading about it, well, well when I'm not here, right,
And so I think that's one of the inspirations for
me to write, is that, you know, it does chronicle
a time period, but it also has this longevity that
goes well beyond my physical being.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
It's existence here.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yeah. Oh man, so many things just came up during
the answer. Has this question changed throughout time for you?
Who do you write for? Has that changed from when
you wrote your first novel to now writing and even
the future books that you have planned to write coming soon?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Yeah, it's interesting because I think there's like it's like
a macro micro thing. It's like, on a macro level,
you go into writing something with a target audience, right,
Like that's the capitalist driven thing of the industry is like, well,
who are you writing this for? I think though, the
more that I write, the more that I learned that
(08:53):
that's not as much of a reason anymore. Right, Like
I write because I write like it doesn't have to
have an intended subject of why I'm writing or who
I'm writing to. It's about like what am I writing? Yeah,
because it's less about like who am I writing too,
and more about what am I writing for?
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Right?
Speaker 3 (09:13):
And I am writing for the people who have these
feelings that they can't explain, have these thoughts that they
can't synthesize, have a language, an emotional language that they
want to be able to speak or be able to use,
but haven't seen it reflected in the world yet. And
so I think a lot about that, and I think
about it more now because of the audience of my books,
(09:38):
Like it skews from the white grandmother who's eighty years
old and heterosexual all the way to you know, black
trans women who have felt themselves in the story of Hope,
who was my black transgender cousin and I had growing up. Right,
it's skewed so far across that it kind of had
to start to inform like that I'm not just writing
(10:01):
for a person or a grouthook people or a targeted audience.
I am writing for you know, these emotions and these
things and these circumstances that we go through and helping
people to process, heal and understand through it.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yeah. Can I add to that, Gary, I think from
what I've read in the time that I was able
to spend with your work, I think you write to
capture time and how it changes, and how our relationships
with what we perceive things to be and how that
changes over time. And that's one thing that I really
(10:40):
appreciate as a queer woman, Like it's this amazing Like
even in the last ten years, there's been a considerable
amount of change, right. Yeah, and in some cases maybe
we're going backwards with our current political climate, but I've noticed,
like from your first novel and then Flammple Alliance, there's
(11:01):
this little, nice little arch where we can we see
like this is like a coming of age story almost
for you and finding your voice and finding like this
is how I was I learned to change and identify
and understand the changes that I had to go through,
but also the world around you. Right. Someone once said
(11:23):
this to me a transgender friend of mine, that you
also have to give the world around you time to adjust, Yeah,
and to give them grace in doing that. And your
books have given that. Like if you're not aware. If
you're not familiar with the world or a queer identity
(11:44):
or a queer identifying world, you can see the gradual,
this gradual arch, and then you take it back and
then you take it back to flamboyance and show how
these black queer luminaries and writers have also even in
those moments when they couldn't be as flamboyant perhaps or
(12:06):
as loud as we can be today, there's still this
element of truth. There's this beautifulness of change, and they're
recognizing who they are and they live who they are
despite that you are listening to black lids.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
To be black and queer as the juture happiness over
your safety de Sean Harrison, It really is a choice,
like of that, right, And I think that's why I
have so much grace in space for people who are
still finding themselves right because the safety aspect is real,
It's real, present and dangerous and like sometimes like I
(12:49):
really feel like, you know, to be black and queer
means that I'm always in a I'm always like in
a state of rage in defense, right, Like there's not
a moment where I'm thinking about am I going to
have to defend myself? Today for something or for for
any little thing, right for the way that I walk,
for the way that I dress, for the way that
I speak. And so it is hard to get to
(13:12):
that place when you find some type of freedom, right
because I think about and I think about freedom too,
right and liberal liberation. It's like we all have like
these smaller liberating moments, right, Like liberation looks like a
big thing, and freedom looks like a big thing, but
there are small moments where we free ourselves. And so
it's like liberating yourself is like not just a one
(13:32):
time act. It's a continuous act of chipping away at
the things that are holding you boxed in. And I
think there's something really unapologetic when you get to that
place of self and knowing what dangers could come with it.
But the freedom that comes on the other side of
(13:52):
the happiness and the confident.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah, is it. Well, I don't know which which one
came first. I think I guess obviously the bravery of
sharing your story came first. To tell this very detailed
depiction of your life and how your family was supportive,
and having that was I mean, that alone is so
(14:17):
alone blessing. And then to find other family, your extended
family and getting the support there. And I feel like
your family's even continually to expand, right like within your audience,
within your readers. Was that the impact that you were
aiming for when you wrote all Boys Aren't Blue? Was
(14:39):
that your intention?
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Yeah, that was intentional, Like I wanted to give the
world a possibility model. And you know, you don't know
your parton Like I didn't know that my family was
like different until I realized that my family was different.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Right until you.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Actually start to interact with other queer people and hear
the horror stories and just hear how their families reacted
to their queerness, I didn't know that that was like.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
A huge issue for so many, you know.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
And so I even now, I share my family a
lot with the world, Like my mom, I post about
her all the time and my family outings and stuff
because I want people to see it, right, Like, I
think it's important that people see it and understand it.
And I remember one of the things that I posted
was when my mom and my two aunts went to
(15:29):
a school board meeting to defit my book, and the
video of them talking went viral, And the most surprising
part about it was the quote tweets like oh my god,
like this is just so beautiful to see like a
family supporting a queer child in this way like this fervently,
And it had never even crossed my mind because it's
my norm, like there was there was never a moment
(15:51):
that they haven't done that, right, So for me, it
was like even to ask when I told them, like, hey,
I can't make it to the school board, me can
y'all go? It was like, yeah, will go, like because
it was never a thought that they wouldn't go, or
that they wouldn't defend my book publicly or do these things.
But to the world it was so it was just
such a different view of a black family. And so,
(16:14):
like I said, I went into it with the intention of,
you know, just showcasing this just something different.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
And you know, I always say, like there's always.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
An alternate ending, right, And I liken it to the
movie Set it Off, right, because you can look at
it in two ways. Right, you look at it as
like black people, you know, you know, are often going
to be targeted by the state and lose to the state,
but then one got away, right, So that's the alternate ending,
is like, but there sometimes is a time where you
(16:43):
beat the state or you survive the state, right, And
so I think the book gave an alternate ending, and
a lot of people really appreciated that because it gives
you an addition to a possibility model. It gives you
a sense of like hope that things can change, and
that times people see it and they just need to
see it, and it changes their attitudes towards their own
(17:05):
family members. And I've actually seen that happen, right, Like
I've seen where parents who have read the book have
totally been like, you know, this book is what helped
me to not just understand my child, but to appreciate
that I was blessed with a queer child, right, like,
to see that happening in real time. And I still
get messages all the time about the books from new
(17:26):
readers like saying that very same thing, like it, Yeah,
it's helping queer people understand themselves, but it's, like you said,
it is also helping the people in the world around
the queer person coming to it with a better understanding
as well.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Okay, with this family that you had that was supportive,
there was still a longing that you had for this
perfection to be a part of the societal norm. Yeah,
how whenn't that change? Like when was that? Was it
when you were felt like you were fully you're able
to be out and be who you were? Was that
(18:02):
just did it just fall away? Or is that still lingering?
To some degree?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
It still lingers. I don't think it's as strong.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
I think it like lessons over time, right, Like it
just gets less and less and less of a care
of mine to fit in.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Yeah, but it takes a long time, right, Like you're
on this identity of self that's also being dictated by
the things that surround you, and so it's not like
a day that happens and you're like, you know what,
I'm still flip the switch and this is me. I
think there's always this questioning of belonging and what you're
(18:36):
okay with versus what you're not okay with. I think
the older I get, the less and less and less
I care about that because I've built my tribe, I've
built my community, and those who don't want me in
theres that's okay, because I may not want you in
mine either, right. I think that's also taking the agency
back is I think a big part of this too
it's like having the agency to be like.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Who said that I.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Wanted you in my community or it wanted you in
my space or wanted you like, but you think that
that's what I want because you think that you are
in the dominant social setting or social circle or social structure.
And I think the more and more, you know, I
get older, so it's like, yeah, like, the less and
less I care about being in certain spaces and being
(19:20):
accepted or even tolerated. Like if you if that's not
for you, then okay, I'm move on right like, like,
I'm not fighting that fight anymore. My fight is to
really empower those who need it and not try to
like I don't want to say, like not trying to
change the views of others. But that's not the intended goal.
The intended goal is the I guess the the ulterior
(19:44):
goal is that someone will pick his book up, read
it and it will change their views. That's great, that's amazing.
But my work is still for the individual who needs this,
like specifically needs this and to be reflected and see
themselves and needs the words to be able to understand
who they are, what they are, how they fit in
(20:05):
this world, and how essentially wasn't built for you to
fit in, so you know, choices have to be made.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
There's so much power in that. To know that your
words have inspired change has cause you know, people on
both us rethink things a little bit. Yeah. Do you
think is that power the reason why the book is
being fanned?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Part of it? I do? Part of it? I do.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
I have recently seen a clip from Tony Morrison, who
was you know, talking about like the power of writing
and the power of being an author and being a writer,
like it's one of the most dangerous jobs you can have.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
It's a bloody like you get killed over their writings.
People have been killed over trying to shift culture and
change and change people's mindsets. Like she's like, that's not
like it's not a safe space. Ever, when you are
a writer who is writing about something that you know
is going to piss off a bunch of people.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
For me, I think it was interesting when it, you know,
just going through the banning process, because it didn't matter
even because I think about it now, especially like the
part that they're upset about is because I talk about
I talk about sexual assault, I talk about my first
sexual experience. I was twenty I talk about all of
(21:23):
these these these topics that they have being too heavy
for teen readers, but realistically, even if I took all
of that out, they would have still banned it, right,
So it's like, is it really that you're banning it
because of this or is it simply that I am black,
I'm queer and that is just something you No matter
what I put in this book, that was something that
you did not want teens to read about, you didn't
(21:47):
want the country to know about. In school systems to have, right,
they want to build children who have no empathy, and
that's really the ultimate goal, Like they want that, that's
the ultimate goal, right, And I think in fighting the
book fans, I've had to like reassess multiple times, like
(22:07):
what's the goal, what's the goal?
Speaker 2 (22:08):
What's the goal?
Speaker 3 (22:09):
And I think at the root of it is building
specifically people who will be in powered which are white
team tool that eventually become our governors, our senators, our presidents,
are you know, CEOs, all those things. Building them without empathy,
building them without a mindset that other people exist that
(22:29):
they should give it amn about. And so I think
that's honestly what's at the root of it. Is that
it is very hard to get through my book and
not have an empathetic ending, like and I have an
empathetic feeling at the end, but also not have a
two things, an empathetic feeling and a feeling of questioning
self of how many times we may applay the villain
(22:50):
in someone's life and how many times we may have
ignored the person to the right of us or to
the left of us and not known what they have
went through.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
And a lot of kids from my high school my book.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
And wor shock that I was going through so much
like they were like, but you were always like funny,
and you were always like you just seemed okay, and
I was like yeah, and they were like, in reading this,
it was like almost heartbreaking because we just we just
never like, because our world was just so vastly different
from what you were dealing with. We just never even
(23:21):
had I thought about that you were going through all
of these things in the midst of what we were
going through just as teens, right Like we were just
going through normal team things and you were going through
those things and.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
All of this. So I think that that's the empathy part.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
And you know, it's funny because some of my frat
brothers now have queer kids. Some of my high school
people went to high school, we'd have queer kids, and
they were like, this book just they were like, it
helped me to understand my kids. But even further than that,
it allows me to say to them that I have
a person in my life who's like you, Like, I know,
I went to high school with this person and they're
(23:58):
like you, and so I get it now, right. And
So I think the empathy building part is because I've
watched the empathy grow. I'm like, that's what they're trying
to stop. They want kids who have no empathy.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Yeah, that that resonates on so many levels. Yeah, on
too many levels. Almost for every book that has been
banned in this country, you can that's literally say that
same thing.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
It's an empathy part.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
M Wow, I got it. I'm gonna have to sit
with that one for a little while. That might there
might be an essay for that one necessary. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
And again, as I'm working on the it's going to
be it's basically the continuation of all Boizon Blue. As
I'm working on it in the adult space, like as
I'm writing about what it feels like to be this
band author and what I'm going through, what I'm feeling,
and how to process it. That that's what that's the
That's what I came to finally, was like, damn, they
don't want these kids to have anything.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Like they want They want more Kyle rittenhouses.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
That's what they want, right, And it's a collective that
wants this unempathetic group that they know could potentially be
the next empower And that's also like when you really
look at how they try to shut down gen Z
who are very collected, but they have so much empathy, right,
like when they're protesting on college campuses want to do it.
(25:21):
That's it's because they have been built with And I
feel like that's a great asset of millennials who are parents,
is that we we went through so much as millennials
that we built our kids to have empathy for so much.
Like I was fifteen or fifteen or nine to eleven,
happened right, Like I went through the housing crisises, I
went through gas being six dollars again, I went like,
(25:43):
as a Liliu've just been through like technically I lived
through HIV epidemic, right, we went through so many different
things in this country, so that we already kind of
had just built in empathy with us that we were
able to instill in the gen z ors now. And
I think that's why they want to steal that them
so bad, still joy still empathy from them so bad
to make them just as hardened as many who came
(26:06):
from that generation before Millennials and Baby Pombers.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Right, yeah, who.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
I mean literally seriously, like thinking about that and hearing
it the way that you just described it, it's so
true and it's so it's so scary. Yeah, I don't
know if I have another word for that. It's it's
terrifying to know that.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
That's when you think about this like making a murderer
right as a series, like what are the pieces that
go into place that make someone so hateful? And this
is part of it. That's where it starts, right like
Hay through twelve is where it starts. And we were
reading about Catcher and a Rye and Sarah Plane and
(26:54):
tall and little women write books that had no They
may have had literary value, but they had no cultural
value to what the climate of what we were living
through was. And so now when you have a whole
generation that are reading books that talk to them. Now, yeah,
it's way different.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
And they're like, no, we want to go back to.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
These books that you know, can't really applied to today
unless it's applying to women being subservient, right, like in
Little Women or Let's it's applying to men with wealth
like The Great Gatspeed, white men with wealth, and like,
you know, like the things that they want that to
feel instilled.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Right. We want books that don't make.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
White kids feel bad, right, And that's but what you're
really saying is we don't want these kids to have
a built in empathy for anyone else.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Well, you are doing the work. Thank you for doing
the work. You are listening to black lids. It's so
beautiful to see one that you are cognizant of the
(28:12):
work that you're doing, the impact that it's having, the
importance of these stories and how and why it resonates
with everyone, not just not just queer people, but with everyone.
And I honestly will say, like I told my mom
and my grandmother more importantly, my grandmother not more importantly,
(28:32):
But I don't you.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Mean, yeah, my grandmother was the same way, So I
trust me my grandmother would be like I don't care.
If that's your mother, I'm supposed to know everything first,
and I'd be like, okay, yes. My grandmother was the
exact same way, and my mother said I would be like,
please tell your grandmother. I'll be like okay, because she
was like if she knew stopping before us, she gone,
(28:54):
or like if she don't know that we knew before her,
she's going to trip.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
But I remember, I remember telling her, and it was
there was still a fear. It was still this like
even knowing that I was loved, even knowing that she
loved me, even know that she all of those things,
there was still a fear of telling her something that
she didn't know, telling her something that I thought she
(29:20):
didn't know, didn't right exactly, Yeah, because they all knew.
It was like yeah, I was like, yeah, it was great,
Like what's happening? Which was really funny to me because
I was I came up with all of these ideas, Yeah, right,
I had all of these ideas of what and how
and what people would think and how they would respond.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
And it's interesting, how you know, because I also think
that's part of what's going on right now in the
country is the attempt to the attempt to steal one's imagination.
Is this still an imagination? No, the attempt to control
ones imagination is exactly what I'm trying to say, Because
(30:02):
why did my imagination go to there?
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Right?
Speaker 3 (30:06):
What made my imagination not go to a place of
where I was going to get a big hug and
everybody was going to celebrate, and like, why didn't.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
My imagination go there?
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Right? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (30:13):
And so when I think about what's going on today,
the idea is the imagination is the one place that
these people can't see, so they don't know necessarily what
goes on in the imaginations of people. And if people
are imagining a better world or a better time, or
being liberated or being more free. So the attacks that
(30:36):
happen are not just about like the physical body that
they can see, and like those policies that they put
in place aren't just about the physical harm. It is
I have to also stop these people's imaginations from thinking.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
That it can be better.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
Yeah, And that's what that's why they do things the
way they do with how they report news and doom
scrolling and all of those things, because they know if
they can get to that one place that they can't
see and make you only think about worse, worse, worse, worse, right,
even when Chuck Schumer says something like it can will
it would have been worse, and it's like, no, We're
(31:11):
already living in worse right, And so that only activates
the imagination to go to worse when we should be
trying to activate people's imaginations to go to better and
teaching them how community building, mutual aid activism, how all
these things can flip this and flip that imagination switch
(31:32):
of always thinking I can make this better, we can
do better, we can come together and fight this and
make our circumstances better.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
You don't even realize that you do that. And what
I always say, like, you know, are we privileged or
are we programmed to think that we're privileged? Yeah, because
if there is this sense of privilege or positive or love,
and why isn't it completely embedded in my thinking, my
imagine nation in any plausible circumstance. Instead it is even
(32:05):
with my loving, beautiful family. I thought the worst. Yep,
I thought the worst because society told me that who
I was was not normal, was not right, and who
I am should be should be met with a certain
level of conflict, and I believe that, you know, I
(32:26):
don't believe it anymore. Thankfully you said this, like there
was a certain part of you that had to die
hundreds of times, like your your your queerness had to die,
your identity had to die, your masculinity had to die.
There were so all of these things had to essentially
die in order for you to be reberfed and to
find who you truly were.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Yeah, And I mean it's funny because that's actually the
premise of the new book. It talks about the many
times we have to die. Like it's highly focused on
that because I think all Boyson Blue got you to
that place of like my first major death in friendship,
in like in the physical world, my first major death
with my line brother Kenny. But then ye with my
(33:08):
self identity. It was leaving, you know, graduating your on college.
That was that was like Okay, it's time, like this
is a major change now and you gotta you gotta pathway,
you gotta go. Uh, but you're got to die a
lot more, a lot of a lot of other thing's.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Got to die in this process of life. Uh.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
You know, I think a lot of people don't really
think about it. Like our grief is that like you
don't associate grief with changing your mind?
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Yeah, you know, Yeah, And we don't talk about mourning
the living, you know, grieving the living. Yeah, we think
grief is like a thing for the dead. That's like, No,
we grieve living people all the time, and we grieve
living situations all the time.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
And then some of them because they just need to
not exist the way they exist anymore. And how do
we how do we now live in a space when
our minds and our identities don't live in this space
that we no longer live in? Right?
Speaker 2 (34:07):
No, Right.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
It's interesting though, because sometimes I feel like I do
kind of get myself into a little bit of a bubble,
so I have to like make sure that I don't
get stuck in there. But it's fun, it's nice in there,
and like it in there. I created it to be
a certain way. I've been trying to figure out how
to ask you this question, But yeah, is gender a
(34:31):
do you think that gender? I guess there's a two
layered question. What is gender? And do you think that
gender is a political agenda?
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (34:43):
To the second wire, The short answers, yes, I mean
it's a political agenda. It's a power agenda. It's just
attached to so many things. But what is gender, right,
It's a construct at the end of the day that
we all get more molded into, right, based off of
body parts, That's just it. And I think we have
(35:06):
made something that is so beautiful and nuanced, and we
try to have simplified it to genitalia, right, And of
course I know that they're just doing sex and you know,
sex and gender, but the world does not process it
that way. They process sex engender as like the same.
(35:28):
Most people think it's the same thing. That's why they
get it so confused. But in reality, like gender is
a spectrum, right, it's it's one of those things that
actually has no definition. And we've tried to define the
like something that cannot be defined, right, because who has
the power to define someone else's identity? And that's just
(35:52):
the reality of it, right. We have given this power
of defining identity and defining who we are as people too,
you know, in the hands of the government, or in
the hands of doctors, or you know, in the hands
of who we have said is the legal authority on
(36:14):
what we can be, how we can identify, you know,
and that's honestly the I guess the wildest part about
gender because because at the end of the day, it
means it means nothing, Like I think the only thing
that matters about gender, in my opinion is healthcare because
(36:40):
of how we are built, we do have different things
that can happen to us in different necessities.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
When it comes to our health care. But outside of.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
That, what does anyone Why should anyone care about someone
else's identity or how they identify or how they want
to show up in this world? Like that is just
a very interesting power grab in my opinion, Like for
me to care enough to not just want to shame
(37:10):
someone because of how they identify, but to harm someone
because of how they identify.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
And what does that really speak to you too? About you?
Speaker 3 (37:18):
And again there is a there's a privilege in waking
up and not questioning self. But is it that you're
blocking the fact that you've never questioned yourself?
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Or is this really who you are?
Speaker 3 (37:33):
And when you fit into the box of being heterosexual
says all the things that society accepts, you don't. At times,
you don't sit and ever question it, you know, and
until something happens that makes you have to question it,
or until someone who is very sure of themselves and
(37:54):
who they are not makes you have to look in
the mirror to say why have well, what's going will meet?
And yeah, I think that's oftentimes what happens too, right,
Like what makes you so turned off or so bothered
by someone who identifies as queer or someone who is queer,
or someone who.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Is trying what bothers you about that?
Speaker 3 (38:17):
Yeah, because the answer is typically built in religion, which
also is not your business of how people's relationship with
God it is, that's none of your business, or it's
built in I don't want my kids to see, or
and it's like, okay, but as one of the kids
that school board meeting said, I'm queer and I've been
(38:42):
reading straight books all my life and it doesn't make
me want to be straight. So I'm not sure why
straight kids reading queer books will make them want to
be quick right, Because it's that simple, right, the simplicity
of a child explaining that, right, And so I think
that's why I'm like, at its simplest form, it's undefined,
and people are fighting to define it, but not even
(39:03):
define it for themselves. They're trying to define it for others,
and I think that's the biggest issue that I have
around let me have these conversations about gender, because it's like,
are you defining.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
It for yourself or me?
Speaker 3 (39:16):
Because if you would have defined your own, that's great,
but the then't thing you need to define mine is
strange because it has nothing to do with you.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
And if you're not attracted to me and you're like,
this has nothing to do with you.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
So yeah, it's a very interesting concept that people are
latching onto for their life for some reason, especially because
straight people birth queer kids all the time. So yes,
not quite sure what y'are. Yeah, So I'm like, not
actually quite sure what the fight or argument is when
(39:53):
both of my parents have always I didn't find a
heterosexual and most of my friend's parents are better essentual, right,
So it's like, what exactly are we trying to define
with this?
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Yeah, okay, I appreciate you for answering that question. Yeah,
the eloquence on which you gave it, and I asked
you got the question not for me, but I asked
because I know that there are people who are listening.
I know that there are people who will who have
that question who are struggling with the answer as well,
(40:29):
And I think it is important, and I think you
are very very good at sharing your truth in the
bravery that you have and that you walk with every day.
There was something in my heart that just made me
feel like how I knew you were going to describe
(40:50):
it would make sense and hopefully make sense for other
who are listening maybe struggling with that question.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Yeah, it's tough.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
But it is. I think our identities are, you know, Honestly,
for me personally, I think it's constantly evolving. I am
not the same person that I was ten years ago
or ten minutes ago. I identify differently because life changes you, absolutely,
changes you pay and changes you love changes you. Yeah,
(41:20):
so my identity changes too all the time. You are
a gem. Thank you, Thank you so so very much.
I am very much looking forward to this next book.
I know you said soon, and.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Yeah I'm writing it. I'm like, I'm in the middle
of writing.
Speaker 3 (41:39):
So yeah, it's been revelatory in many ways. Maybe that's why,
and that's probably why I could answer in a way
that I can, because I'm back in that space of
working through these things again.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
So, yeah, how does your process what is your process
in writing and how does that change over depending on
what you're writing.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
I just I pull a lot.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
From personally xperience even when I'm writing fiction, Like I
try to think about certain scenarios that are either played
out in my life, my family's life, my friends' lives,
and like, how do I put that out into the
world in a way that's digestible but impactful. When it
comes to like just my writing process, I do, like
I said, I go into each project with some intended
(42:20):
purposes of what I want people to leave with. And
I think that as you start to work through and
things reveal themselves, you then kind of have to, you know,
make some pivots from time to time with the work.
But I think for me, the biggest thing about my
process is that I'm never married to anything, and so
even when I go in it with a plan that's
going to be one way. If I come out of
(42:42):
it and it's a totally different way, that's okay. I
think having detachment from those type of principles has helped
with my writing in immense ways because I'm just not
tied to anything anymore. Yeah, And I think that allows
me to be my most create self with the way
(43:02):
that I use spacing when I'm writing now and when
I want to write poetry, when I want to write letters,
when I want to write like I use every writing
form to my advantage, and I just kind of let it.
I let it be guided without intention at times like Okay,
I'm going to go into this book and I'm going
to write four poems and I'm going to write.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
It's never like that.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
It's like, as I'm doing the work, I'm like, oh,
I want to express this feeling or thought. But the
best way for me to do it isn't a letter,
Like I could write it as a chapter, but I
need to write a letter to this like or I
could express it this way, but the best way for
me to do this will be to write a poem
because that's what I'm feeling. The best way for me
to do this will be to write a song because
that's what I'm feeling, and I allowed that to kind
(43:42):
of guide my writing process.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
You Know, we always ask the question that I think
every writer, every creative, every artist gets asked, is you know,
what advice would you give to an up and coming writer?
So who wants to be a writer or an artist
always that question so interesting, and I think you already
answered it.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
I'm sure I have. But advice to up and coming writers, structure,
Like even structure is a is a construct at times, right,
And so I'm not always as focused on structure in
the beginning as much as I'm focused on getting the
words on a page. And so I think it's just
extremely important that when you're writing for the first time
(44:27):
and nervous about things, to be able to just push
yourself to be free with the writing. Yeah, and not.
Speaker 3 (44:37):
Like it's easy for me to be like, oh, if
I write this, I'm going to have a problem with
this set of people.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
If I write that, I don't have a problem with this.
Speaker 3 (44:43):
It's like I don't want to be bound by that,
and so I just allow the writing to be bound
lists at first.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
And so like when you have to get it out,
just get it out.
Speaker 3 (44:52):
You just got to write it on the page and
let the let that you know then be the driving force.
So it's like, don't try to it's like almost don't
try to self edit at.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
First, Like ooh, that's that's hard for me, but okay,
it's hard for a lot of people.
Speaker 3 (45:11):
Like I know, like when people get stuck or like
they miss deadlines, or it's because they're self editing. Don't
self edit, like get it out and then take a
beat and then come back to it. Oftentimes that'll help
you to be like, oh, I can expand on this,
or I actually don't need this.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
But I think if you're trying to.
Speaker 3 (45:29):
Do it while doing the writing, you're gonna find yourself
constantly stuck.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Yeah, well, i'll shaw you to that, and I'm working
on it. I've gotten better, but I'm an editor. I
edit audio and edit television, so my brain is always
constantly like, let's go back, let's see what that looks like.
Or ooh, I've been kind of getting to the point
where I'll write something and then I'll just put it
(45:56):
away like it's as a separate thing. Again, thank you
so much for your time. Thank you, it's been an
immense pleasure. I hope that everyone goes and reads all
of your books, including the one that is forthcoming, and
something changes, whatever it may be, in getting opportunity to
(46:16):
digest your work, because it is a mill It is
not a snack. It is a full, full, nourishing, complete
and I thank you for sharing it. Hey, I cannot
thank you enough for your bravery, for who you are,
for who you have become, and who you are becoming.
And I hope to follow your work even more.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
Black Butt is a Black Effect original series in partnership
with iHeart Media. Is written and created by myself, Jack
Queis Thomas and executive produced alongside Dolly s. Bishop. Chanelle
Collins is the director of Production, Head of Talent Nicole Spence,
writer producer Jason Torres, Our researcher and producer is Jabari Davis,
(47:00):
and the mix and sound design is by the humble
Duane Crawford. Gratitude is an action, so I have to
give praise to those who took the time out to
write a review. Please keep sharing and we will promise
to bring more writers and greater episodes to you
My name is Jacquees Thomas, and you're listening to Black Lit,
a podcast about black literature and the stories behind the storytellers.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hello. My name is George M. Johnson.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
I am a New York Times bestselling author of the
book All Boys Aren't Blue. I've also written two additional books,
We Are Not Broken, which is about my grandmother and
her story of helping to raise myself and my younger
brother and my two cousins, as well as my third
book that came out in September, Flamboyant, which discusses the
(00:40):
queerness of the Carlem Renaissance. I use dy them pronouns,
but pronounce to me. I get called he, she they
So I'm cool with everything.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Well, thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
I love that. That was a great intro.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
He's like New York Times bestselling author. Let's let's let
that sink in for a second. That's really dope. It's
really beautiful to have you on the podcast to join
us today. I got it clear to air. To start first,
and foremost, how do you still feel about New Jersey.
I'm a Jersey girls, I need to know.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I'm from the city of Plainfield, New Jersey. My whole
family primarily is still there, like mom, aunt's dad, younger brother, nephews, cousins,
like I still have a lot of family in Plainfield,
so I still.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Visit a lot. I love being from New Jersey.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
I think people assume that, you know, like New Jersey
and New York is like the same culture, Like we
do have a shared culture, Like we definitely have a
shared culture, but New Jersey definitely has its own identity,
and so I enjoy the identity of being from New Jersey.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Okay, because as well I was reading All Boys Aren't Blue,
it was definitely get out of New Jersey asap. I
never turn and look back ever again.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Yeah, growing up, I didn't like it, so that's the truth.
But I don't think it was the state. It was
just more so like I just didn't feel like I
fit in, Like I didn't have.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
A friend group. Really I have friends, but it never
was really like a part of a group or anything.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
And so I primarily in my family, I'm like the explorer.
I feel like everybody has like that one person that's
like the explorer of the family. So I travel a
lot currently, but I also with the school in a
different state, and I've lived in several States, you know,
but New Jersey is always gonna be on, and I
have a depreciation for New Jersey now that I probably
(02:42):
didn't have growing up that I will soon be writing about.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Okay, so another another memoir coming soon or.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Yeah, yeah, we haven't announced it yet, but yes, it
will be announceding, So so stay tuned.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Something that stood out to me which I thought was
really beautiful. There's two things, actually, but I'll start with
this one. Flamboyants. The first writer the firstliminary which we
actually just finished doing episodes, and here at the Black
lit on is Lanxon Hughes. Yes, and he wrote his
memoir at a very early young age as well. So
I thought that was very interesting that there was that
(03:20):
compatibility between the two of you. Yeah, what made you
feel like, Okay, I'm thirty three when you wrote right
when you read Our Boys and a flu What made
you feel like, Oh, I have a story to tell
at this age and I'm ready to tell it. What
gave you that strength?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:38):
During the time, there were several queer memoirs that had
come out, one by Darnutt Moore, one by Michael.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Arseno, one by Saie Jones.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
There were a lot of like quick Memoirrists and all
of their books were so amazing, and I was a journalist.
I'm still technically a journalist, but I was mainly doing
freelance writing at the time, and something like I know,
it was like a spirit was invoked in me to
be like, you know, like I love these stories, but
I also want to, you know, tell my own, but
(04:06):
I want to gear it towards an audience that doesn't
typically get memoirs right, Like memoir seems like a very
adult thing, but I think about, you know, as a
young adult when you're looking for something to grasp onto
that gives a semblance of your life or which you
may be going through, that memoir is a great path
(04:27):
for someone, especially if the memoir is focused on those
teenage years and the young adult years. And so for me,
I just felt like, I want to tell this story,
but I also want to not just write a story
for the who we are now, but write a story
to the inner child. Like let like letting my inner
child write the story in a sense. And I always say,
(04:50):
it wasn't like thirty three year old me that was
writing this story. It really was my inner child who
now had the words to be able to write the story.
And so I think that the book connected a lot
with a wide range of audiences because it didn't matter
what age you were, we all still have that inner child. Yeah,
And I felt that the book spoke a lot to
(05:12):
the inner child.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
So you wrote it, or you allowed your inner voice,
your inner child to basically give that inner child of
voice to speak and tell the story of your upbringing.
We're here to talk about all boys, aren't flu. But
there was something that also set out to me in
Flamboyance was there was an essay where you wrote, why
do I write?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (05:36):
I mean that's repeated a couple of times. Can you
answer that? Why? Why? Why? Through writing? Why is this
your medium of choice? Yes?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Interesting, writing is the one thing that stands the test
of time. I feel like I feel like there's always
a new medium being invented. You know, whether it was
radio and then it was television, and then it was
you know, the transformation of music from eight tracks to
(06:06):
cassettes to CDs to well actually vinyls to eight tracks
to cassettes to CDs to streaming. Right, Like, there's always
like this building thing podcasting, Like we're always building some
type of new medium social media, but writing in books,
They've been here for thousands of years, right, And I
feel like there's just a calling for some of us
(06:28):
to want a chronicle history in that way, and when
a chronicle a time period through writing, and I think
writing has always led to the adaptation of every other avenue.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Right.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
It's like some TV shows are created based off of
the adaptation of a book. We also do audio books, right,
so that you can hear the voice of the of
the writer.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
At times.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
Movies are adaptations of books, right, like so many things
Broadway plays are adaptations of books. Like so many things
come from just writing it down that sparks so many
other ideas and so many other interests.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
But you have to have.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Those people who do the book writing, who tell the stories.
And I felt that I came from a family, specifically
my grandmother she was a great storyteller. My aunt Margaret
was the best storyteller. And so it's like when you
come from a family of oral storytellers, it then became
my job to write it down, right, And so I
felt like it was part part spiritual, but also part
(07:30):
like part of my purpose was like they weren't just
telling me these stories, just so I had them. They
were telling me these stories to make sure that I
shared them with the world, right, because people in the
physical body you pass away, but as long as the
story is written down, then those people actually never die
because their story is always out there and people could
(07:52):
think he reading about it, well, well when I'm not here, right,
And so I think that's one of the inspirations for
me to write, is that, you know, it does chronicle
a time period, but it also has this longevity that
goes well beyond my physical being.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
It's existence here.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yeah. Oh man, so many things just came up during
the answer. Has this question changed throughout time for you?
Who do you write for? Has that changed from when
you wrote your first novel to now writing and even
the future books that you have planned to write coming soon?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Yeah, it's interesting because I think there's like it's like
a macro micro thing. It's like, on a macro level,
you go into writing something with a target audience, right,
Like that's the capitalist driven thing of the industry is like, well,
who are you writing this for? I think though, the
more that I write, the more that I learned that
(08:53):
that's not as much of a reason anymore. Right, Like
I write because I write like it doesn't have to
have an intended subject of why I'm writing or who
I'm writing to. It's about like what am I writing? Yeah,
because it's less about like who am I writing too,
and more about what am I writing for?
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Right?
Speaker 3 (09:13):
And I am writing for the people who have these
feelings that they can't explain, have these thoughts that they
can't synthesize, have a language, an emotional language that they
want to be able to speak or be able to use,
but haven't seen it reflected in the world yet. And
so I think a lot about that, and I think
about it more now because of the audience of my books,
(09:38):
Like it skews from the white grandmother who's eighty years
old and heterosexual all the way to you know, black
trans women who have felt themselves in the story of Hope,
who was my black transgender cousin and I had growing up. Right,
it's skewed so far across that it kind of had
to start to inform like that I'm not just writing
(10:01):
for a person or a grouthook people or a targeted audience.
I am writing for you know, these emotions and these
things and these circumstances that we go through and helping
people to process, heal and understand through it.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Yeah. Can I add to that, Gary, I think from
what I've read in the time that I was able
to spend with your work, I think you write to
capture time and how it changes, and how our relationships
with what we perceive things to be and how that
changes over time. And that's one thing that I really
(10:40):
appreciate as a queer woman, Like it's this amazing Like
even in the last ten years, there's been a considerable
amount of change, right. Yeah, and in some cases maybe
we're going backwards with our current political climate, but I've noticed,
like from your first novel and then Flammple Alliance, there's
(11:01):
this little, nice little arch where we can we see
like this is like a coming of age story almost
for you and finding your voice and finding like this
is how I was I learned to change and identify
and understand the changes that I had to go through,
but also the world around you. Right. Someone once said
(11:23):
this to me a transgender friend of mine, that you
also have to give the world around you time to adjust, Yeah,
and to give them grace in doing that. And your
books have given that. Like if you're not aware. If
you're not familiar with the world or a queer identity
(11:44):
or a queer identifying world, you can see the gradual,
this gradual arch, and then you take it back and
then you take it back to flamboyance and show how
these black queer luminaries and writers have also even in
those moments when they couldn't be as flamboyant perhaps or
(12:06):
as loud as we can be today, there's still this
element of truth. There's this beautifulness of change, and they're
recognizing who they are and they live who they are
despite that you are listening to black lids.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
To be black and queer as the juture happiness over
your safety de Sean Harrison, It really is a choice,
like of that, right, And I think that's why I
have so much grace in space for people who are
still finding themselves right because the safety aspect is real,
It's real, present and dangerous and like sometimes like I
(12:49):
really feel like, you know, to be black and queer
means that I'm always in a I'm always like in
a state of rage in defense, right, Like there's not
a moment where I'm thinking about am I going to
have to defend myself? Today for something or for for
any little thing, right for the way that I walk,
for the way that I dress, for the way that
I speak. And so it is hard to get to
(13:12):
that place when you find some type of freedom, right
because I think about and I think about freedom too,
right and liberal liberation. It's like we all have like
these smaller liberating moments, right, Like liberation looks like a
big thing, and freedom looks like a big thing, but
there are small moments where we free ourselves. And so
it's like liberating yourself is like not just a one
(13:32):
time act. It's a continuous act of chipping away at
the things that are holding you boxed in. And I
think there's something really unapologetic when you get to that
place of self and knowing what dangers could come with it.
But the freedom that comes on the other side of
(13:52):
the happiness and the confident.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah, is it. Well, I don't know which which one
came first. I think I guess obviously the bravery of
sharing your story came first. To tell this very detailed
depiction of your life and how your family was supportive,
and having that was I mean, that alone is so
(14:17):
alone blessing. And then to find other family, your extended
family and getting the support there. And I feel like
your family's even continually to expand, right like within your audience,
within your readers. Was that the impact that you were
aiming for when you wrote all Boys Aren't Blue? Was
(14:39):
that your intention?
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Yeah, that was intentional, Like I wanted to give the
world a possibility model. And you know, you don't know
your parton Like I didn't know that my family was
like different until I realized that my family was different.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Right until you.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Actually start to interact with other queer people and hear
the horror stories and just hear how their families reacted
to their queerness, I didn't know that that was like.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
A huge issue for so many, you know.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
And so I even now, I share my family a
lot with the world, Like my mom, I post about
her all the time and my family outings and stuff
because I want people to see it, right, Like, I
think it's important that people see it and understand it.
And I remember one of the things that I posted
was when my mom and my two aunts went to
(15:29):
a school board meeting to defit my book, and the
video of them talking went viral, And the most surprising
part about it was the quote tweets like oh my god,
like this is just so beautiful to see like a
family supporting a queer child in this way like this fervently,
And it had never even crossed my mind because it's
my norm, like there was there was never a moment
(15:51):
that they haven't done that, right, So for me, it
was like even to ask when I told them, like, hey,
I can't make it to the school board, me can
y'all go? It was like, yeah, will go, like because
it was never a thought that they wouldn't go, or
that they wouldn't defend my book publicly or do these things.
But to the world it was so it was just
such a different view of a black family. And so,
(16:14):
like I said, I went into it with the intention of,
you know, just showcasing this just something different.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
And you know, I always say, like there's always.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
An alternate ending, right, And I liken it to the
movie Set it Off, right, because you can look at
it in two ways. Right, you look at it as
like black people, you know, you know, are often going
to be targeted by the state and lose to the state,
but then one got away, right, So that's the alternate ending,
is like, but there sometimes is a time where you
(16:43):
beat the state or you survive the state, right, And
so I think the book gave an alternate ending, and
a lot of people really appreciated that because it gives
you an addition to a possibility model. It gives you
a sense of like hope that things can change, and
that times people see it and they just need to
see it, and it changes their attitudes towards their own
(17:05):
family members. And I've actually seen that happen, right, Like
I've seen where parents who have read the book have
totally been like, you know, this book is what helped
me to not just understand my child, but to appreciate
that I was blessed with a queer child, right, like,
to see that happening in real time. And I still
get messages all the time about the books from new
(17:26):
readers like saying that very same thing, like it, Yeah,
it's helping queer people understand themselves, but it's, like you said,
it is also helping the people in the world around
the queer person coming to it with a better understanding
as well.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Okay, with this family that you had that was supportive,
there was still a longing that you had for this
perfection to be a part of the societal norm. Yeah,
how whenn't that change? Like when was that? Was it
when you were felt like you were fully you're able
to be out and be who you were? Was that
(18:02):
just did it just fall away? Or is that still lingering?
To some degree?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
It still lingers. I don't think it's as strong.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
I think it like lessons over time, right, Like it
just gets less and less and less of a care
of mine to fit in.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Yeah, but it takes a long time, right, Like you're
on this identity of self that's also being dictated by
the things that surround you, and so it's not like
a day that happens and you're like, you know what,
I'm still flip the switch and this is me. I
think there's always this questioning of belonging and what you're
(18:36):
okay with versus what you're not okay with. I think
the older I get, the less and less and less
I care about that because I've built my tribe, I've
built my community, and those who don't want me in
theres that's okay, because I may not want you in
mine either, right. I think that's also taking the agency
back is I think a big part of this too
it's like having the agency to be like.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Who said that I.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Wanted you in my community or it wanted you in
my space or wanted you like, but you think that
that's what I want because you think that you are
in the dominant social setting or social circle or social structure.
And I think the more and more, you know, I
get older, so it's like, yeah, like, the less and
less I care about being in certain spaces and being
(19:20):
accepted or even tolerated. Like if you if that's not
for you, then okay, I'm move on right like, like,
I'm not fighting that fight anymore. My fight is to
really empower those who need it and not try to
like I don't want to say, like not trying to
change the views of others. But that's not the intended goal.
The intended goal is the I guess the the ulterior
(19:44):
goal is that someone will pick his book up, read
it and it will change their views. That's great, that's amazing.
But my work is still for the individual who needs this,
like specifically needs this and to be reflected and see
themselves and needs the words to be able to understand
who they are, what they are, how they fit in
(20:05):
this world, and how essentially wasn't built for you to
fit in, so you know, choices have to be made.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
There's so much power in that. To know that your
words have inspired change has cause you know, people on
both us rethink things a little bit. Yeah. Do you
think is that power the reason why the book is
being fanned?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Part of it? I do? Part of it? I do.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
I have recently seen a clip from Tony Morrison, who
was you know, talking about like the power of writing
and the power of being an author and being a writer,
like it's one of the most dangerous jobs you can have.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
It's a bloody like you get killed over their writings.
People have been killed over trying to shift culture and
change and change people's mindsets. Like she's like, that's not
like it's not a safe space. Ever, when you are
a writer who is writing about something that you know
is going to piss off a bunch of people.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
For me, I think it was interesting when it, you know,
just going through the banning process, because it didn't matter
even because I think about it now, especially like the
part that they're upset about is because I talk about
I talk about sexual assault, I talk about my first
sexual experience. I was twenty I talk about all of
(21:23):
these these these topics that they have being too heavy
for teen readers, but realistically, even if I took all
of that out, they would have still banned it, right,
So it's like, is it really that you're banning it
because of this or is it simply that I am black,
I'm queer and that is just something you No matter
what I put in this book, that was something that
you did not want teens to read about, you didn't
(21:47):
want the country to know about. In school systems to have, right,
they want to build children who have no empathy, and
that's really the ultimate goal, Like they want that, that's
the ultimate goal, right, And I think in fighting the
book fans, I've had to like reassess multiple times, like
(22:07):
what's the goal, what's the goal?
Speaker 2 (22:08):
What's the goal?
Speaker 3 (22:09):
And I think at the root of it is building
specifically people who will be in powered which are white
team tool that eventually become our governors, our senators, our presidents,
are you know, CEOs, all those things. Building them without empathy,
building them without a mindset that other people exist that
(22:29):
they should give it amn about. And so I think
that's honestly what's at the root of it. Is that
it is very hard to get through my book and
not have an empathetic ending, like and I have an
empathetic feeling at the end, but also not have a
two things, an empathetic feeling and a feeling of questioning
self of how many times we may applay the villain
(22:50):
in someone's life and how many times we may have
ignored the person to the right of us or to
the left of us and not known what they have
went through.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
And a lot of kids from my high school my book.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
And wor shock that I was going through so much
like they were like, but you were always like funny,
and you were always like you just seemed okay, and
I was like yeah, and they were like, in reading this,
it was like almost heartbreaking because we just we just
never like, because our world was just so vastly different
from what you were dealing with. We just never even
(23:21):
had I thought about that you were going through all
of these things in the midst of what we were
going through just as teens, right Like we were just
going through normal team things and you were going through
those things and.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
All of this. So I think that that's the empathy part.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
And you know, it's funny because some of my frat
brothers now have queer kids. Some of my high school
people went to high school, we'd have queer kids, and
they were like, this book just they were like, it
helped me to understand my kids. But even further than that,
it allows me to say to them that I have
a person in my life who's like you, Like, I know,
I went to high school with this person and they're
(23:58):
like you, and so I get it now, right. And
So I think the empathy building part is because I've
watched the empathy grow. I'm like, that's what they're trying
to stop. They want kids who have no empathy.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Yeah, that that resonates on so many levels. Yeah, on
too many levels. Almost for every book that has been
banned in this country, you can that's literally say that
same thing.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
It's an empathy part.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
M Wow, I got it. I'm gonna have to sit
with that one for a little while. That might there
might be an essay for that one necessary. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
And again, as I'm working on the it's going to
be it's basically the continuation of all Boizon Blue. As
I'm working on it in the adult space, like as
I'm writing about what it feels like to be this
band author and what I'm going through, what I'm feeling,
and how to process it. That that's what that's the
That's what I came to finally, was like, damn, they
don't want these kids to have anything.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Like they want They want more Kyle rittenhouses.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
That's what they want, right, And it's a collective that
wants this unempathetic group that they know could potentially be
the next empower And that's also like when you really
look at how they try to shut down gen Z
who are very collected, but they have so much empathy, right,
like when they're protesting on college campuses want to do it.
(25:21):
That's it's because they have been built with And I
feel like that's a great asset of millennials who are parents,
is that we we went through so much as millennials
that we built our kids to have empathy for so much.
Like I was fifteen or fifteen or nine to eleven,
happened right, Like I went through the housing crisises, I
went through gas being six dollars again, I went like,
(25:43):
as a Liliu've just been through like technically I lived
through HIV epidemic, right, we went through so many different
things in this country, so that we already kind of
had just built in empathy with us that we were
able to instill in the gen z ors now. And
I think that's why they want to steal that them
so bad, still joy still empathy from them so bad
to make them just as hardened as many who came
(26:06):
from that generation before Millennials and Baby Pombers.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Right, yeah, who.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
I mean literally seriously, like thinking about that and hearing
it the way that you just described it, it's so
true and it's so it's so scary. Yeah, I don't
know if I have another word for that. It's it's
terrifying to know that.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
That's when you think about this like making a murderer
right as a series, like what are the pieces that
go into place that make someone so hateful? And this
is part of it. That's where it starts, right like
Hay through twelve is where it starts. And we were
reading about Catcher and a Rye and Sarah Plane and
(26:54):
tall and little women write books that had no They
may have had literary value, but they had no cultural
value to what the climate of what we were living
through was. And so now when you have a whole
generation that are reading books that talk to them. Now, yeah,
it's way different.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
And they're like, no, we want to go back to.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
These books that you know, can't really applied to today
unless it's applying to women being subservient, right, like in
Little Women or Let's it's applying to men with wealth
like The Great Gatspeed, white men with wealth, and like,
you know, like the things that they want that to
feel instilled.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Right. We want books that don't make.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
White kids feel bad, right, And that's but what you're
really saying is we don't want these kids to have
a built in empathy for anyone else.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Well, you are doing the work. Thank you for doing
the work. You are listening to black lids. It's so
beautiful to see one that you are cognizant of the
(28:12):
work that you're doing, the impact that it's having, the
importance of these stories and how and why it resonates
with everyone, not just not just queer people, but with everyone.
And I honestly will say, like I told my mom
and my grandmother more importantly, my grandmother not more importantly,
(28:32):
But I don't you.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Mean, yeah, my grandmother was the same way, So I
trust me my grandmother would be like I don't care.
If that's your mother, I'm supposed to know everything first,
and I'd be like, okay, yes. My grandmother was the
exact same way, and my mother said I would be like,
please tell your grandmother. I'll be like okay, because she
was like if she knew stopping before us, she gone,
(28:54):
or like if she don't know that we knew before her,
she's going to trip.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
But I remember, I remember telling her, and it was
there was still a fear. It was still this like
even knowing that I was loved, even knowing that she
loved me, even know that she all of those things,
there was still a fear of telling her something that
she didn't know, telling her something that I thought she
(29:20):
didn't know, didn't right exactly, Yeah, because they all knew.
It was like yeah, I was like, yeah, it was great,
Like what's happening? Which was really funny to me because
I was I came up with all of these ideas, Yeah, right,
I had all of these ideas of what and how
and what people would think and how they would respond.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
And it's interesting, how you know, because I also think
that's part of what's going on right now in the
country is the attempt to the attempt to steal one's imagination.
Is this still an imagination? No, the attempt to control
ones imagination is exactly what I'm trying to say, Because
(30:02):
why did my imagination go to there?
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Right?
Speaker 3 (30:06):
What made my imagination not go to a place of
where I was going to get a big hug and
everybody was going to celebrate, and like, why didn't.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
My imagination go there?
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Right? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (30:13):
And so when I think about what's going on today,
the idea is the imagination is the one place that
these people can't see, so they don't know necessarily what
goes on in the imaginations of people. And if people
are imagining a better world or a better time, or
being liberated or being more free. So the attacks that
(30:36):
happen are not just about like the physical body that
they can see, and like those policies that they put
in place aren't just about the physical harm. It is
I have to also stop these people's imaginations from thinking.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
That it can be better.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
Yeah, And that's what that's why they do things the
way they do with how they report news and doom
scrolling and all of those things, because they know if
they can get to that one place that they can't
see and make you only think about worse, worse, worse, worse, right,
even when Chuck Schumer says something like it can will
it would have been worse, and it's like, no, We're
(31:11):
already living in worse right, And so that only activates
the imagination to go to worse when we should be
trying to activate people's imaginations to go to better and
teaching them how community building, mutual aid activism, how all
these things can flip this and flip that imagination switch
(31:32):
of always thinking I can make this better, we can
do better, we can come together and fight this and
make our circumstances better.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
You don't even realize that you do that. And what
I always say, like, you know, are we privileged or
are we programmed to think that we're privileged? Yeah, because
if there is this sense of privilege or positive or love,
and why isn't it completely embedded in my thinking, my
imagine nation in any plausible circumstance. Instead it is even
(32:05):
with my loving, beautiful family. I thought the worst. Yep,
I thought the worst because society told me that who
I was was not normal, was not right, and who
I am should be should be met with a certain
level of conflict, and I believe that, you know, I
(32:26):
don't believe it anymore. Thankfully you said this, like there
was a certain part of you that had to die
hundreds of times, like your your your queerness had to die,
your identity had to die, your masculinity had to die.
There were so all of these things had to essentially
die in order for you to be reberfed and to
find who you truly were.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Yeah, And I mean it's funny because that's actually the
premise of the new book. It talks about the many
times we have to die. Like it's highly focused on
that because I think all Boyson Blue got you to
that place of like my first major death in friendship,
in like in the physical world, my first major death
with my line brother Kenny. But then ye with my
(33:08):
self identity. It was leaving, you know, graduating your on college.
That was that was like Okay, it's time, like this
is a major change now and you gotta you gotta pathway,
you gotta go. Uh, but you're got to die a
lot more, a lot of a lot of other thing's.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Got to die in this process of life. Uh.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
You know, I think a lot of people don't really
think about it. Like our grief is that like you
don't associate grief with changing your mind?
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Yeah, you know, Yeah, And we don't talk about mourning
the living, you know, grieving the living. Yeah, we think
grief is like a thing for the dead. That's like, No,
we grieve living people all the time, and we grieve
living situations all the time.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
And then some of them because they just need to
not exist the way they exist anymore. And how do
we how do we now live in a space when
our minds and our identities don't live in this space
that we no longer live in? Right?
Speaker 2 (34:07):
No, Right.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
It's interesting though, because sometimes I feel like I do
kind of get myself into a little bit of a bubble,
so I have to like make sure that I don't
get stuck in there. But it's fun, it's nice in there,
and like it in there. I created it to be
a certain way. I've been trying to figure out how
to ask you this question, But yeah, is gender a
(34:31):
do you think that gender? I guess there's a two
layered question. What is gender? And do you think that
gender is a political agenda?
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (34:43):
To the second wire, The short answers, yes, I mean
it's a political agenda. It's a power agenda. It's just
attached to so many things. But what is gender, right,
It's a construct at the end of the day that
we all get more molded into, right, based off of
body parts, That's just it. And I think we have
(35:06):
made something that is so beautiful and nuanced, and we
try to have simplified it to genitalia, right, And of
course I know that they're just doing sex and you know,
sex and gender, but the world does not process it
that way. They process sex engender as like the same.
(35:28):
Most people think it's the same thing. That's why they
get it so confused. But in reality, like gender is
a spectrum, right, it's it's one of those things that
actually has no definition. And we've tried to define the
like something that cannot be defined, right, because who has
the power to define someone else's identity? And that's just
(35:52):
the reality of it, right. We have given this power
of defining identity and defining who we are as people too,
you know, in the hands of the government, or in
the hands of doctors, or you know, in the hands
of who we have said is the legal authority on
(36:14):
what we can be, how we can identify, you know,
and that's honestly the I guess the wildest part about
gender because because at the end of the day, it
means it means nothing, Like I think the only thing
that matters about gender, in my opinion is healthcare because
(36:40):
of how we are built, we do have different things
that can happen to us in different necessities.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
When it comes to our health care. But outside of.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
That, what does anyone Why should anyone care about someone
else's identity or how they identify or how they want
to show up in this world? Like that is just
a very interesting power grab in my opinion, Like for
me to care enough to not just want to shame
(37:10):
someone because of how they identify, but to harm someone
because of how they identify.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
And what does that really speak to you too? About you?
Speaker 3 (37:18):
And again there is a there's a privilege in waking
up and not questioning self. But is it that you're
blocking the fact that you've never questioned yourself?
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Or is this really who you are?
Speaker 3 (37:33):
And when you fit into the box of being heterosexual
says all the things that society accepts, you don't. At times,
you don't sit and ever question it, you know, and
until something happens that makes you have to question it,
or until someone who is very sure of themselves and
(37:54):
who they are not makes you have to look in
the mirror to say why have well, what's going will meet?
And yeah, I think that's oftentimes what happens too, right,
Like what makes you so turned off or so bothered
by someone who identifies as queer or someone who is queer,
or someone who.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Is trying what bothers you about that?
Speaker 3 (38:17):
Yeah, because the answer is typically built in religion, which
also is not your business of how people's relationship with
God it is, that's none of your business, or it's
built in I don't want my kids to see, or
and it's like, okay, but as one of the kids
that school board meeting said, I'm queer and I've been
(38:42):
reading straight books all my life and it doesn't make
me want to be straight. So I'm not sure why
straight kids reading queer books will make them want to
be quick right, Because it's that simple, right, the simplicity
of a child explaining that, right, And so I think
that's why I'm like, at its simplest form, it's undefined,
and people are fighting to define it, but not even
(39:03):
define it for themselves. They're trying to define it for others,
and I think that's the biggest issue that I have
around let me have these conversations about gender, because it's like,
are you defining.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
It for yourself or me?
Speaker 3 (39:16):
Because if you would have defined your own, that's great,
but the then't thing you need to define mine is
strange because it has nothing to do with you.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
And if you're not attracted to me and you're like,
this has nothing to do with you.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
So yeah, it's a very interesting concept that people are
latching onto for their life for some reason, especially because
straight people birth queer kids all the time. So yes,
not quite sure what y'are. Yeah, So I'm like, not
actually quite sure what the fight or argument is when
(39:53):
both of my parents have always I didn't find a
heterosexual and most of my friend's parents are better essentual, right,
So it's like, what exactly are we trying to define
with this?
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Yeah, okay, I appreciate you for answering that question. Yeah,
the eloquence on which you gave it, and I asked
you got the question not for me, but I asked
because I know that there are people who are listening.
I know that there are people who will who have
that question who are struggling with the answer as well,
(40:29):
And I think it is important, and I think you
are very very good at sharing your truth in the
bravery that you have and that you walk with every day.
There was something in my heart that just made me
feel like how I knew you were going to describe
(40:50):
it would make sense and hopefully make sense for other
who are listening maybe struggling with that question.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Yeah, it's tough.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
But it is. I think our identities are, you know, Honestly,
for me personally, I think it's constantly evolving. I am
not the same person that I was ten years ago
or ten minutes ago. I identify differently because life changes you, absolutely,
changes you pay and changes you love changes you. Yeah,
(41:20):
so my identity changes too all the time. You are
a gem. Thank you, Thank you so so very much.
I am very much looking forward to this next book.
I know you said soon, and.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Yeah I'm writing it. I'm like, I'm in the middle
of writing.
Speaker 3 (41:39):
So yeah, it's been revelatory in many ways. Maybe that's why,
and that's probably why I could answer in a way
that I can, because I'm back in that space of
working through these things again.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
So, yeah, how does your process what is your process
in writing and how does that change over depending on
what you're writing.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
I just I pull a lot.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
From personally xperience even when I'm writing fiction, Like I
try to think about certain scenarios that are either played
out in my life, my family's life, my friends' lives,
and like, how do I put that out into the
world in a way that's digestible but impactful. When it
comes to like just my writing process, I do, like
I said, I go into each project with some intended
(42:20):
purposes of what I want people to leave with. And
I think that as you start to work through and
things reveal themselves, you then kind of have to, you know,
make some pivots from time to time with the work.
But I think for me, the biggest thing about my
process is that I'm never married to anything, and so
even when I go in it with a plan that's
going to be one way. If I come out of
(42:42):
it and it's a totally different way, that's okay. I
think having detachment from those type of principles has helped
with my writing in immense ways because I'm just not
tied to anything anymore. Yeah, And I think that allows
me to be my most create self with the way
(43:02):
that I use spacing when I'm writing now and when
I want to write poetry, when I want to write letters,
when I want to write like I use every writing
form to my advantage, and I just kind of let it.
I let it be guided without intention at times like Okay,
I'm going to go into this book and I'm going
to write four poems and I'm going to write.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
It's never like that.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
It's like, as I'm doing the work, I'm like, oh,
I want to express this feeling or thought. But the
best way for me to do it isn't a letter,
Like I could write it as a chapter, but I
need to write a letter to this like or I
could express it this way, but the best way for
me to do this will be to write a poem
because that's what I'm feeling. The best way for me
to do this will be to write a song because
that's what I'm feeling, and I allowed that to kind
(43:42):
of guide my writing process.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
You Know, we always ask the question that I think
every writer, every creative, every artist gets asked, is you know,
what advice would you give to an up and coming writer?
So who wants to be a writer or an artist
always that question so interesting, and I think you already
answered it.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
I'm sure I have. But advice to up and coming writers, structure,
Like even structure is a is a construct at times, right,
And so I'm not always as focused on structure in
the beginning as much as I'm focused on getting the
words on a page. And so I think it's just
extremely important that when you're writing for the first time
(44:27):
and nervous about things, to be able to just push
yourself to be free with the writing. Yeah, and not.
Speaker 3 (44:37):
Like it's easy for me to be like, oh, if
I write this, I'm going to have a problem with
this set of people.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
If I write that, I don't have a problem with this.
Speaker 3 (44:43):
It's like I don't want to be bound by that,
and so I just allow the writing to be bound
lists at first.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
And so like when you have to get it out,
just get it out.
Speaker 3 (44:52):
You just got to write it on the page and
let the let that you know then be the driving force.
So it's like, don't try to it's like almost don't
try to self edit at.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
First, Like ooh, that's that's hard for me, but okay,
it's hard for a lot of people.
Speaker 3 (45:11):
Like I know, like when people get stuck or like
they miss deadlines, or it's because they're self editing. Don't
self edit, like get it out and then take a
beat and then come back to it. Oftentimes that'll help
you to be like, oh, I can expand on this,
or I actually don't need this.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
But I think if you're trying to.
Speaker 3 (45:29):
Do it while doing the writing, you're gonna find yourself
constantly stuck.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Yeah, well, i'll shaw you to that, and I'm working
on it. I've gotten better, but I'm an editor. I
edit audio and edit television, so my brain is always
constantly like, let's go back, let's see what that looks like.
Or ooh, I've been kind of getting to the point
where I'll write something and then I'll just put it
(45:56):
away like it's as a separate thing. Again, thank you
so much for your time. Thank you, it's been an
immense pleasure. I hope that everyone goes and reads all
of your books, including the one that is forthcoming, and
something changes, whatever it may be, in getting opportunity to
(46:16):
digest your work, because it is a mill It is
not a snack. It is a full, full, nourishing, complete
and I thank you for sharing it. Hey, I cannot
thank you enough for your bravery, for who you are,
for who you have become, and who you are becoming.
And I hope to follow your work even more.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
Black Butt is a Black Effect original series in partnership
with iHeart Media. Is written and created by myself, Jack
Queis Thomas and executive produced alongside Dolly s. Bishop. Chanelle
Collins is the director of Production, Head of Talent Nicole Spence,
writer producer Jason Torres, Our researcher and producer is Jabari Davis,
(47:00):
and the mix and sound design is by the humble
Duane Crawford. Gratitude is an action, so I have to
give praise to those who took the time out to
write a review. Please keep sharing and we will promise
to bring more writers and greater episodes to you
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