February 4, 2025 • 35 mins
Jacquees and her producers discuss the creative process behind the podcast, share personal small wins, and delve into the poetry of Langston Hughes that resonated with them the most. They explore the therapeutic role of poetry, the importance of mental health in the Black community, and how cultural expressions serve as coping mechanisms. The conversation highlights themes of loneliness, legacy, and the impact of art, while also reflecting on the interviews with experts from the chapters focused on Langston Hughes in previous episodes.
Previous Episodes:
Langston Hughes - We, Too: The Life, Legacy and Longevity of A Poet
Langston Hughes - The People's Poet: The Power of Oral Traditions and The Blues
Langston Hughes - Fulterius King, The Table and The Inspiration
Langston Hughes - How Our Relationships Shape Us and Our Art
Connect With The Team
Jason Torres: @JNTNY
Jabari Davis @JabariADavis
Jacquees Thomas @_ThatsPeace
Join the Writers Collective BLKWritersRoom.com
Sign up for News and Great Gifts for Book Lovers AbakeBooks.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
My name is Jacqueess Thomas, and you're listening to black Lit,
a podcast about black literature and the stories behind the storytellers.
On this episode of black Lit, we are going to
do things a little bit differently, kind of a BTS
(00:21):
book club. We just decided to bring you guys into
our fold where we talk about the luminary that we're
highlighting and the process of creating this podcast. Before we start,
I would love to just thank everyone that has helped
to make this series possible, Doctor Carmeletta Williams, Bill Ferris,
(00:42):
doctor Donna Acuba, Sullivan, Harper, Filteris King, and now my
team today I am joined by my producers, Jabari Davis
and Jason Torres. Every Tuesday we meet and we start
our meeting off with small winds. Every one of us
(01:03):
goes around and talks about the little things that we
might have overlooked perhaps, but in this moment we get
to give it an accolade, give it some shine, and
it's a really positive way for us to start our
meetings and to start our week. So we decided to
start this episode the same way, and we're gonna start
(01:25):
with Jabari.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
All right, my small wind is pretty small but it's big.
It's huge to me. I'm back in the world of
the functional adult. My cell phone is back on. You know,
a couple weeks ago, I accidentally deleted my SIM card.
Basically one silly move after another. We are back in
business about two weeks later, so it's good to be
(01:49):
able to communicate with you guys effectively again.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah, that green bubble was disturbing.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I've already gotten that from several people. My wife included,
because my new phone is an an, She's like, still green?
I said, yes, and who cares? Why are we? So
we are back.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
That's good to know. But I will no longer bring
up the green bubble.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Ohche Okay, privately, we'll bring it up NonStop. I won't
bring it up to you.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
I'll be that.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Guy, Jason, What was your small one this week?
Speaker 3 (02:22):
In my spare time, I like to draw, and during
the pandemic, I started a drawing that is taking me
up until a couple of days ago to finish. So
it's really exciting to get something crossed off. My to
do list has been up there for a long time.
It's always a great feeling. You feel like a weight
is lifted off. You can move on to something else,
and it's just like a personally, very like cathartic thing
(02:43):
to have happened. So it's small, but it's a huge
win for me.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
But that's a big one because that's the creative checkbox there.
Actually mine is creative as well. So I don't know
if I told either one of you this, but I
had an idea for a novella and I started writing it.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
I don't know when it will be done, but I
started it.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Can you tell us what it's about?
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I will.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
It's a secret, that's fair.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
It's like an idea that I've been like really kind
of meditating and sitting on for some time, and I
think it's a really good one. So you know, I'm
gonna wait before I give it to the world. I
love that, But you guys will definitely be the first
to have access to it when I finally finished writing it.
But I don't know how long that's gonna take. So
(03:41):
we have been spending time with Links and Hughes, and
during this time, we've had this beautiful and interesting kind
of journey trying to learn who he was as a man.
I think we all can say that we are familiar
(04:04):
with his work and his writings and its poetry, but
getting a backstory and trying to understand who he was
as a man was the interesting part for me, and
his relationships, his relationship with his parents, and also I
guess the relationship that he had with himself. Right. But
(04:25):
to start, we're gonna kind of just talk about our
favorite poems and give a little feedback on which ones
resonated with us the most.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
It's funny when we discuss going through this, I kind
of went back and forth on a few, even though
I still stuck with my main one, you know, Negro
and still Here. Those are big for me because, you know,
just from a perseverance standpoint, I feel like that's the
mess that she was trying to get across. But honestly,
the favorite is Dreams because in full disclosure, I was
(05:00):
a big Langston fan he as a teenager, but kind
of fell off in terms of my readership in my
adult years. So this is kind of like a reintroduction
for me. And while Dreams absolutely resonated with me, then
it kind of still does because I think it's I
think it's still important. I think no matter where you
are in life, no matter how far along you are.
I think it's still important to have dreams and have aspirations,
(05:22):
and that one still completely resonates for hold fast to dreams.
For if dreams die, life is a broken wing bird
that cannot fly. Hold fast to dreams. For when dreams go,
life is a barren field frozen with snow snows.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
I think that one is a very popular one that
doesn't take anything away from it. I think that's one
that comes up a lot where people reference Langstein and
his work and just his perspective on dreams and the
importance of not letting go of them. What about you, Jason, I.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Mean, all time I would probably say dream deferred. Not
you know, it's easy to to call out on a classic,
but I mean it's it's the one that it's probably
what made me the most interested in Lengthton and probably
because of like when I was introduced to it so personally,
and I just love the theme and I just like
(06:18):
where it stands in the in the zeitgeist, you know
what I mean. Like it's it's just like an all
time classic in this journey something that I discovered would
probably be and it's not even one that we touched on,
but there was something that I just stumbled on. And
it wasn't in The Big Sea or one of the
(06:41):
books we talked about, But there's like a tiny work
called Island that's like really short, and it's a lot
of times, a lot of his work is like powerful
and very not not always hopeful, but like kind of
like defiant, and there's like an air of like perseverance.
But in this one he kind of succumbs to the sadness.
(07:02):
And sometimes you do kind of have to sit in
the sadness a little bit, you know what I'm saying,
and to really kind of like figure your way out
of it. And I just I respect that it's something
that I might not have noticed or acknowledged like years
and years ago. Go, wave of sorrow, do not drown me. Now.
I see the island still ahead. Somehow I see the
(07:26):
island and its sands are fair. Wave of sorrow, take
me there. As an adult, we've all been through things,
we've lost, We've had different experiences, and I recognize now
as I'm older, the power in being able to kind
(07:46):
of like sit in the sadness a tiny bit, like
don't not to be consumed by it and not to
let it like run you or ruin you, but like
it's okay to acknowledge it doesn't always have to You
don't always have to be fighting and persevering through some
standing tall over something, you know what I'm saying, Like
it's okay to that's part of it too. And it
goes like that with a lot of experiences that we
(08:07):
usually tend to put in front of us as something
to like break through or fight through to get over,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
I think that kind of speaks to what for Taurus
King alluded to in his interview as far as like
using poetry as a way of therapy, as a way
of healing, as a way of letting art speak and
release these feelings.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
So there's this approach that we use is called bibliotherapy,
and it's very simple, but we recommend texts or it
could be poetry, it could be self help books to
our clients to see if they could help them manage
to put the symptoms that they're presenting. And so I've
recommended Still I rise to a lot of my black
(08:57):
female young clients and you know, just seeing their faces
lit up, you know, knowing that you know, even though
whatever they've been through they can steal. It's possible that
they can still be resilient.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
They are queens, they.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
Are powerful, and they can rise above its basically just
recommending a text that we clinicians feel could resonate with
our clients and to have them come back and see
what it was, what their experience was like with the
text or the poetry or whatever books that we recommended,
and sometimes we even read in sessions and you know,
(09:35):
just to see what helps the clients or what resonates
with them.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
But I do think.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
It's important to you know, just going back to that
cultural competency need is I make it my prerogative to
make sure that when I'm speaking with my black clients
that I'm always speaking through a black lens, because no
matter what mental health treatment you give them, if you
give them, you know, bibliotherapy or cognitive behavioral therapy, whatever
(10:04):
approach that you're coming from, I want to give it
to them in a way that they can receive it,
you know, utilize the language that they use to help
them receive what they need clinically.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
And so it is.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
Very liberating being a therapist and I really enjoy it
and just to see my clients gravitate to certain texts
or poems or anything to help them manage their symptoms.
Is just very liberating as a therapist.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
So has either one of you been to therapy in
your lives at any point?
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Yeah, I've been to therapy. My kids go to therapy,
their mom goes to therapy. It's super important. But I
didn't always feel like that. And that is why it's
so important because for years it was a thing that
kind of was kept from us. I feel like as
people in that they sort of it was always presented
(11:03):
in pop culture like something for crazy people or corny people,
or like a weird neurotic white people. You know, you
watch like a Tom and Jerry cartoon or something. There's
always like, you know, the cliche of like being on
the couch kind of whining and not knowing who you are,
what you're about. But it's like the reality of it
is that, you know, especially as black people, we go
(11:24):
through so much. There's so many like not just invisible
threats and not just the the daily you know obvious
like oppression and aggravation and frustration, but the generational trauma
that we all carry with us. It has to be unpacked,
you know, like there's a lot of macho energy, especially
(11:45):
like in culture directed to us, especially like hip hop,
about how kind of lame it is to cry or
you know, think through your childhood or your innermost feelings.
There's a lot of like grin and Barrett suck it up,
deal with you know what I'm saying. But the reality
is like that that doesn't do anybody any good. And
(12:07):
you know, to be in a safe enough space to
open yourself up to that is extremely powerful. So in
the any device that sort of can grease the wheels
into that thinking is great, whether it's poetry or whatever
(12:28):
it is. Any sort of device that's used to help
people come to terms of how important it is and
how relevant it is is dope.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yeah, I was really I was really excited to hear
when Czaris talked about how he uses poetry with his
clients and just how it helps them to build the
confidence and to build or even find solace in the
feelings that they're having, especially when it's like a cultural
experience or something that's weighing on them because it's a
(13:02):
consistent problem, you know, whether it be systemic or just
a direct offense to our culture. To bory do you
want to add to that.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Yeah, no, you know, Jason, you make an excellent point.
It's so many of us growing up we're either told,
you know, like like those exact lines, either suck it up,
man up tough enough, or you know whatever, you know,
variance of that was appropriate for you. And I was,
you know, I was victim to that, especially early on,
(13:34):
to the point that I think I mentioned it earlier,
like poetry was my only outlet, you know, like my
high school years, early college years, prior to being anywhere
near comfortable with you know, self expression, like in a
direct sense, like with you know, with another individual, you know,
the pen in the paper, you know, And I recognize
that's an you know, antiquated, you know phrase these days,
(13:57):
but you know, the pin and the paper were my
outlet in my early twenties. I did attempt to, you know,
go to therapy. And this is where I'll say, and
you know, I don't know how you feel about it,
but I can imagine the fit is is probably the
most important thing, Like finding the right person, finding the
right sounding board, I could take years and and I
(14:20):
and I didn't realize that. So the first time I went,
I did not have a good experience. There was no connectivity,
there was no like, I didn't feel like there was
even an understanding, let alone you know, enough material to
you know, you know, to you to work with. Uh,
you know, so I gave up on it. I mean
it was only you know, it was probably a decade
later where I was in a situation where I absolutely
(14:41):
recognized no, no, no, I need to sit down and
talk to somebody, where I gave it another chance, and
then you know, it didn't it didn't even work that time.
But finding the right you know, find like I said,
finding the right voice, finding the right sounding board was
probably and I don't say this hyperbolically, probably the thing
that has me here today. So that's how important therapy
(15:03):
is for me in my life as a continued thing.
And I'm I'm feel I feel grateful that I was
able to find that, you know, that right person, because
without it, like I said, I have no idea where
I would be.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Yeah, that's what's up. And it's it's maintenance. It's it's
it's like going to the gym, Like you're not going
to go to the gym and immediately become the person
that you know you want to see in the mirror,
but like getting up and doing it every day. The
practice of it matters more than than anything else. So
it's like, if that means it takes four years of
research and testing out different therapists to find your person,
(15:38):
as long as you're getting up and getting out there
and doing the work and like committed to doing it,
like that's more than half of it.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
That That is absolutely the case, and even the piggyback
on that to put it in perspective for maybe some
of those out there that have not considered therapy or
simply are against it. The reality is to you know,
you know, to your point about that maintenance, if you
go to the gym and you work out, well, you know,
it's understandable like after the fact you go, maybe you
hit the steam room, maybe you get a massage, maybe
you take it like an anti inflammatory. It's the same
(16:09):
thing with the brain. And this actually ties back to
what you said earlier with all of the different things
that were soldiering, with all of the different things that
we are enduring on a day to day basis, as
well as the generational trauma, there's absolutely nothing wrong with
exercising that brain a little bit like get given in
little therapy to that brain after the fact, the same
(16:30):
way we would with our bodies.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
And just acknowledging that it is happening, and it's happening
to you, and you feel away and your feelings are valid.
So I think it's what I want to say, that
is just, you know, beautiful to sit with two black
men who not only take the time and put the
effort into their mental health and their mental awareness. I
(16:52):
think that's just really beautiful. I don't know if I could.
I don't know if I would be having the same
conversation ten to fifteen years ago, especially during Langston Hughes
time period, that was just unheard of because of the
stigma that surrounded therapy. So it's beautiful to see them
two being bridged together as this way of finding solid
(17:13):
comfort within our art, within our mental awareness and mental health.
And it's it's just really dope to hear futurists and
both of you talk about it in such a positive way.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Yeah. I loved hearing from him. He was really dope
and interesting and like that was one of my favorite
conversations of the season, And yeah, I love what he's doing.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah, and also sounds like even with you Jubbari as
poetry being like something like your refuge during your earlier years,
and I could say the same thing. For me, like
that was like before I even knew what poetry was, like,
I was putting words together in order to just express
and to release. And I think both of you know
this because I've mentioned it before, but at a pretty
(17:54):
unstable childhood, let's call it that. So having poetry and
having like art as this tool to express, as a device,
as this way of like getting or at least knowing
that for me internally, that what I was feeling was
real and I had a way to get it out.
And it wasn't until later that, you know, therapy became
(18:17):
a part of that, and those two kind of coupled
together while journaling and writing and inner child work and
all of those different things. So yeah, very very cool.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
You know, on the topic of therapy, I really kind
of like what's happening now. It's kind of being looked
at as like a luxury, you know, Like I feel
like younger kids look at it like Jordan's back in
the day where it's like you don't have a therapist,
you know, it's like, what are you doing my therapist? Sad.
It's like, yeah, having a therapist is like having like
(18:48):
the Jordans or the iPhone is really interesting. There's like
a cool factor to it.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Now it is totally flipped, like totally completely flipped.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
It used to be something that yeah, you wouldn't even
like you watch an episode of like Martin or you
know what I'm saying, I ain't talking the you know
what I mean, like like yeah, it's like something's wrong
with you or it's crazy. Now it's like any any
little incommunity. I need to talk to my therapist. I
can't believe it ran out of Sprite.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
You know, I was waiting all year for that Sprite Cranberry.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Yeah, oh my god, wait till I tell about this.
This is the I'm never coming back to this McDonald's.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
That was such a gen X moment right there.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Yeah, it's real, but it's all it's all in the language,
right because like you could argue that like cooking is therapeutic, right,
Like cooking sometimes for me is my therapy. I'm in
the kitchen. All the little details, the cutting, the slicing,
the feeling, all those things are part of an experience
that like nothing else matters in this moment except what
I'm doing right now. So that's like my therapy sometimes, right,
(19:50):
that was also your great grandmother's therapy. You think she
has somebody to talk to, and then you wonder why
grandma cooks so well because it's like that's her therapy,
you know what I'm saying, And like these recipes get
passed down and it's like that's that's what they did.
Or like, oh, my grandfather's really good. He could sit
in that shed all day and he'll make you a chair.
But that was his therapy.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
You know, I'm not going to lie to you. I
had never thought about it that way, but you're a
one hundred percent right, Like that was their coping mechanism.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Also for me as a young girl, like I remember
like getting my hair done with my mom, Like that
was our sessions, you know what I mean, Like back
in the day, like you would talk to your elders,
you would talk to you know, like your family, and
we would have like these that's when we had like
our heart to hearts. When I was like sitting on
the floor, sitting on a pillow with her braiding in
(20:40):
my hair, and that was like the moment where I
could just tell her how my day was, or tell
her how I was feeling.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Saturday mid mornings, our house was the spot where my
aunts and cousins would come and I would be woken
up by the smells like, oh, somebody, Okay, that's hair
because because they had that, because they had the hot
the hot hold on the damn stove.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
And I.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Remember walking and seeing that and being like, you know
that that was their that was their circle.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
All of those things but just like such an important
bonding experience, especially in my household, like cool things could
be happening at once, like somebody could be in there
here straight in the water room and somebody cooking pancakes
and the other.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Like, no, I'm mad at them now, I'm mad at them.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Oh, I kind of missed those dands.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
I really missed those days. I took it for granted,
didn't realize it wasn't gonna be forever, just being real.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Isn't it always like that? You never know the good
old days, so it's gone gone.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
I think that's kind of you know what art is
for me and allows me to like not let things
kind of permeate longer than they should, because now they
have a different there's another life for them, there's another
way for me to express it and to get it out.
So now I can let it out and sometimes share it,
sometimes not. Sometimes it just goes into a notebook, into
(22:10):
the closet or something. And I think Langston definitely did
that with a lot of his work. And we also
spoke about the loneliness. That's the thread that we kind
of can see at different times in his life for
different reasons, whether it be his very distant childhood with
his parents or just moments within his own culture, and
(22:32):
that longing of wanting to be closer to his people
or and celebrate them in the ways that he wanted to.
I completely agree with that. And as an adult, you
can't be sad too long. There's no room for it.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Life's gonna keep lifing pretty much.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
You do have to acknowledge it otherwise you kind of
you know, it's part of the process. You kind of
have to allow yourself the space to feel your feelings
but not completely drowning them. And it's interesting to think
of like loneliness as a theme because that was one
of the first things I noticed, because one of the
first pieces of research into this chapter of the podcast
(23:15):
that you know, the Lengthston used as a focal point
was the story in the church with the Revival, and
that in itself is a story of loneliness where at
least it ends in that way because he's not feeling
the way everybody's feeling. You know, he's feeling outcast, like
(23:35):
you know what I'm saying, he's alone in feeling like
he is not getting what everyone else is getting, like
he's been pulled from that.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Like God didn't respond, God wasn't there. So like whatever
your religion is or whatever your belief system is, but
to believe in something, even if this is a parent
right and to think that that parent isn't there for you,
or that spiritual guide isn't there for you in that
moment where you're expecting them, Yeah, that would. I think
(24:07):
that's very deep rooted loneliness and an example of.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
That and feeling abandoned because in a lot of ways,
like your perception of your understanding of God is based
on your understanding of your parents, you know, like these
omnipotent beings that are over you that literally gave you life,
and you know what I mean. So it's like when
you are abandoned by a parent, you can feel like,
(24:32):
you know, abandoned, full of long cosmically, yeah, yeah, this
is fun.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I think you know, his story has a lot of
weight of this loneliness, but there is light and there
is beauty. My all time favorite is the Negro Mother
because it speaks to women culture, my grandmother, the strength
that is needed to do what you have to do,
(25:06):
and knowing that what you're doing is not necessarily for you,
it's for the generations after. And I feel like that's
something that should be a true for everyone, right. I
feel like that's something that we should all carry, Like,
I'm not going to be here forever, So what is
it that's going to be left behind as a legacy?
(25:28):
As a you know, what is the fruit that I
am giving to the world? And what can I How
can my children or my children's children, the children of
the world, so to speak, how can they benefit from
that fruit? But the one palm that I found recently
that I was actually not aware of, but it speaks
to what we were saying about the life not always
(25:50):
being easy, and it's called life is fine. I went
down to the river, I sat down on the bank.
I tried to think, but couldn't, so I jumped in
and sank. I came up once and hollered. I came
up twice and cried. If that water hadn't been so cold,
I might have sunk and died. But it was cold
(26:15):
in that water. It was so cold. I took that
elevator sixteen floors above the ground. I thought about my
baby and thought I would jump down. I stood there
and I hollered. I stood there and I cried. If
it hadn't been so high, I might have jumped and died.
(26:37):
But it was high up there. It was so high.
So since I'm still living, I guess I will live on.
I could have died for love, but for living I
was born. Though you may hear me holler and you
may see me cry, I'll be dogged, baby, if you're
(27:01):
going to see me die. Life is fine. Fine is
why life is fine.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
I mean, I feel like in so many of his
poems and works, he was letting you know, like, hey,
it's not always gonna be roses, it's not always gonna
be puppies and beautiful. But at the end of the day,
you know, as long as you can persevere, you'll be okay.
And I like that one.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
I think that's an all ongoing threat in his work
for sure. So what did you guys think of The
Big Sea.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
I hadn't read it in a long time, probably since
I don't know college, so it was interesting revisiting it.
Is there any thoughts on it that jump out to
you right away?
Speaker 1 (27:47):
I think it's a great way of learning about Length
and Hughes and his adventures and his jobs and some
of the people that he came in contact with. But
I don't necessarily, like, if I had to say, oh,
I love the way that it was written and the
(28:08):
way that he described these different moments, and I really
deeply felt him in this book, I would not say that.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Did it feel to you like it was more of
him chronicling his experiences as opposed to like telling the
story in the exactly. Yeah, that's kind of what it
felt like for me, even though it was incredibly intriguing
for you know, like to learn about these things. And
you know, I think it was I think it was
doctor Dash that pointed out a couple things to us
(28:39):
that that stood out in her interview. But yeah, it
really did. It felt like, hey, Okay, this is good
to know, this is great to know. But it was
less of his voice and more of his like just
kind of breaking down what had happened.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Yeah, like kind of like regurgitis hating. Okay, that's what
happened during this time. This is what happened during this year.
And like you said, it's very interesting, but there was
something missing for me, and I think that that's what
it was, like this kind of narrative voice. This you know,
it felt very much like this chronological regurgitation of these moments.
(29:13):
And this is the poem that happened. This is the
poem that I wrote in this moment, but I still
recommend reading it for sure. And doctor Carmeletta, her insight
brought those moments that he wrote about to life. That's
the part that I found super intriguing. First of all,
(29:35):
her voice where she talks, the way she was telling
these stories, it was so captivating and the reveal of
like the things that we didn't now.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
Yeah, she was great. Was that your first time meeting
her ever?
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Yeah? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Yeah. How did you guys go about selecting her to
be a part of the process.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
I mean, there wasn't that much to it. It was
more of, uh, you know, I just looked for different
individuals that had either you know, dedicated their career like
to his works, or had something significant within their careers.
And she, she was on that list. And so the
funniest thing is is like, anytime I look up these individuals,
I'm already under the assumption Jackson's gonna have a great
(30:18):
conversation with them, doesn't it kind of it kind of
doesn't matter. But then once you start diving into them,
you realize, like, oh man, this is there are so
many different directions this could go. And she was one
of those ones that really stood out.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
She was the first or the second interview.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
She was the first for for years.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Yeah, there was a moment where we almost didn't remember,
like she was having all those connectivity issues.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Oh yeah, I do.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
I think maybe that's why it felt so much sweeter
when we finally when we finally got a hold of her.
It was so worth it that it was like, I'm
so glad that we stuck this out, because for a
minute it was like, well, let's move on to someone else,
Like there's a connectivity issue. We can't really figure it out.
It's getting kind of annoying. And obviously, but you know,
it wasn't her. I'm not trying to talk about her.
(31:10):
I'm just saying like the reality of the emotional weight
of it was like, you know, we got to keep
it moving. But I remember hearing like, Hey, guess what
we're gonna We are going to be able to talk there.
And I was like, oh, bet, that's dope. And then
when we went through it, I was like, Oh, she's dope.
She's really really cool and smart energy was great and
you know, just like a library of information. She was awesome.
(31:34):
She really was.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
It was more than worth the wait in a lot
of these conversations. And I don't know if it's necessarily
you know, when it's a certain generation, but it feels
like I'm I'm literally like pulling up a chair or
pulling up a pillow and sitting down, you know, like
listening to my grandmother or my grandfather or you know,
maybe and maybe I'm longing for that, but like that's
kind of how those conversations, just about every conversation for Hughes,
(31:57):
that's how it felt.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Yeah, I agree, especially even with Phil Parris, it did
feel like we were just sitting on a porch and
there was like, you know, land in front of us
and trees and farm or some sort trickts, and he
was also just a plethora of knowledge as well, like
(32:19):
he just you know what, the thing I liked about
speaking with him was that it wasn't necessarily about Langstone specifically,
it was about folklore and it was about the importance
of this oral tradition and that's what poetry is, right,
and him giving his life like basically dedicated his entire
(32:45):
life to recording African American history the culture around him,
and I just thought he was just super fascinating and
just like remarkable and to know and have that foresight
to start at sixteen years So yeah, it blew my mind.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
We are all the beneficiaries of it, Like if we're
being you know, doctor Ferris and you know doctor Karma,
you know doctor Dash, all of them, we are the
beneficiaries of their lifelong dedication to it. That's pretty awesome.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
It's been a great ride, and getting to meet all
those people and you know, learned from them was really
special and kind of like a one of a kind
of experience. And like we talked about yesterday, it's not
just like a fun, interesting show, but it's like we
were creating, you know, a resource for people, you know,
because there's not there's not going to be a lot
(33:38):
of spaces where you can you can hear from all
those people you just name. So it's like, you know,
it's like you're you're you're adding to the to the
culture in a really positive, dope way. So it's exciting
to be a part of.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
It, really is. And you know, I'm not great about it,
but I've been every every time I catch it, I
I share the comments from the listeners, and you know,
just last night someone said, Hey, I listened to one
episode and I'm absolutely hooked. They were, you know, shower
and praise upon your efforts and you to Jason's point,
(34:10):
this is absolutely not only a resource for folks, but
it's you know, it's it's it's meaningful. And that's not
to take anything away from any of the show that
you know, we've worked on, or any of our you know,
past deals. I'll speak for myself personally, this is the
most meaningful show that I've been a part of. So
it is awesome to be that.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Thank you both, both both Jay and T and Y
on Instagram. If you don't want to keep up with
Jason and then Jabari A Davis on Instagram Black That
is a Black Effects original series in partnership with iHeart Media.
Is written and created by myself, jack Quise Thomas and
(34:48):
executive produced alongside Dolly s. Bishop. Janelle Collins is the
director of Production, Head of Talent Nicole Spence, writer producer
Jason Torres, Our researcher and producer is Jabari Davis, and
the mix and sound design is by the Humble Duane Crawford.
Gratitude is an action, so I have to give praise
(35:09):
to those who took the time out to write a review.
Please keep sharing and we will promise to bring more
writers and greater episodes to you. Also, if you're looking
to become a writer or in search of a supportive
writing community, join me for a free creative writing session
(35:31):
on my website Black writers Room dot com, b LK
Writer's Room dot com, or hit me up directly for
more details at Underscore T h A T S P
E A c E. That's Peace.
My name is Jacqueess Thomas, and you're listening to black Lit,
a podcast about black literature and the stories behind the storytellers.
On this episode of black Lit, we are going to
do things a little bit differently, kind of a BTS
(00:21):
book club. We just decided to bring you guys into
our fold where we talk about the luminary that we're
highlighting and the process of creating this podcast. Before we start,
I would love to just thank everyone that has helped
to make this series possible, Doctor Carmeletta Williams, Bill Ferris,
(00:42):
doctor Donna Acuba, Sullivan, Harper, Filteris King, and now my
team today I am joined by my producers, Jabari Davis
and Jason Torres. Every Tuesday we meet and we start
our meeting off with small winds. Every one of us
(01:03):
goes around and talks about the little things that we
might have overlooked perhaps, but in this moment we get
to give it an accolade, give it some shine, and
it's a really positive way for us to start our
meetings and to start our week. So we decided to
start this episode the same way, and we're gonna start
(01:25):
with Jabari.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
All right, my small wind is pretty small but it's big.
It's huge to me. I'm back in the world of
the functional adult. My cell phone is back on. You know,
a couple weeks ago, I accidentally deleted my SIM card.
Basically one silly move after another. We are back in
business about two weeks later, so it's good to be
(01:49):
able to communicate with you guys effectively again.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah, that green bubble was disturbing.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I've already gotten that from several people. My wife included,
because my new phone is an an, She's like, still green?
I said, yes, and who cares? Why are we? So
we are back.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
That's good to know. But I will no longer bring
up the green bubble.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Ohche Okay, privately, we'll bring it up NonStop. I won't
bring it up to you.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
I'll be that.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Guy, Jason, What was your small one this week?
Speaker 3 (02:22):
In my spare time, I like to draw, and during
the pandemic, I started a drawing that is taking me
up until a couple of days ago to finish. So
it's really exciting to get something crossed off. My to
do list has been up there for a long time.
It's always a great feeling. You feel like a weight
is lifted off. You can move on to something else,
and it's just like a personally, very like cathartic thing
(02:43):
to have happened. So it's small, but it's a huge
win for me.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
But that's a big one because that's the creative checkbox there.
Actually mine is creative as well. So I don't know
if I told either one of you this, but I
had an idea for a novella and I started writing it.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
I don't know when it will be done, but I
started it.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Can you tell us what it's about?
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I will.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
It's a secret, that's fair.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
It's like an idea that I've been like really kind
of meditating and sitting on for some time, and I
think it's a really good one. So you know, I'm
gonna wait before I give it to the world. I
love that, But you guys will definitely be the first
to have access to it when I finally finished writing it.
But I don't know how long that's gonna take. So
(03:41):
we have been spending time with Links and Hughes, and
during this time, we've had this beautiful and interesting kind
of journey trying to learn who he was as a man.
I think we all can say that we are familiar
(04:04):
with his work and his writings and its poetry, but
getting a backstory and trying to understand who he was
as a man was the interesting part for me, and
his relationships, his relationship with his parents, and also I
guess the relationship that he had with himself. Right. But
(04:25):
to start, we're gonna kind of just talk about our
favorite poems and give a little feedback on which ones
resonated with us the most.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
It's funny when we discuss going through this, I kind
of went back and forth on a few, even though
I still stuck with my main one, you know, Negro
and still Here. Those are big for me because, you know,
just from a perseverance standpoint, I feel like that's the
mess that she was trying to get across. But honestly,
the favorite is Dreams because in full disclosure, I was
(05:00):
a big Langston fan he as a teenager, but kind
of fell off in terms of my readership in my
adult years. So this is kind of like a reintroduction
for me. And while Dreams absolutely resonated with me, then
it kind of still does because I think it's I
think it's still important. I think no matter where you
are in life, no matter how far along you are.
I think it's still important to have dreams and have aspirations,
(05:22):
and that one still completely resonates for hold fast to dreams.
For if dreams die, life is a broken wing bird
that cannot fly. Hold fast to dreams. For when dreams go,
life is a barren field frozen with snow snows.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
I think that one is a very popular one that
doesn't take anything away from it. I think that's one
that comes up a lot where people reference Langstein and
his work and just his perspective on dreams and the
importance of not letting go of them. What about you, Jason, I.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Mean, all time I would probably say dream deferred. Not
you know, it's easy to to call out on a classic,
but I mean it's it's the one that it's probably
what made me the most interested in Lengthton and probably
because of like when I was introduced to it so personally,
and I just love the theme and I just like
(06:18):
where it stands in the in the zeitgeist, you know
what I mean. Like it's it's just like an all
time classic in this journey something that I discovered would
probably be and it's not even one that we touched on,
but there was something that I just stumbled on. And
it wasn't in The Big Sea or one of the
(06:41):
books we talked about, But there's like a tiny work
called Island that's like really short, and it's a lot
of times, a lot of his work is like powerful
and very not not always hopeful, but like kind of
like defiant, and there's like an air of like perseverance.
But in this one he kind of succumbs to the sadness.
(07:02):
And sometimes you do kind of have to sit in
the sadness a little bit, you know what I'm saying,
and to really kind of like figure your way out
of it. And I just I respect that it's something
that I might not have noticed or acknowledged like years
and years ago. Go, wave of sorrow, do not drown me. Now.
I see the island still ahead. Somehow I see the
(07:26):
island and its sands are fair. Wave of sorrow, take
me there. As an adult, we've all been through things,
we've lost, We've had different experiences, and I recognize now
as I'm older, the power in being able to kind
(07:46):
of like sit in the sadness a tiny bit, like
don't not to be consumed by it and not to
let it like run you or ruin you, but like
it's okay to acknowledge it doesn't always have to You
don't always have to be fighting and persevering through some
standing tall over something, you know what I'm saying, Like
it's okay to that's part of it too. And it
goes like that with a lot of experiences that we
(08:07):
usually tend to put in front of us as something
to like break through or fight through to get over,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
I think that kind of speaks to what for Taurus
King alluded to in his interview as far as like
using poetry as a way of therapy, as a way
of healing, as a way of letting art speak and
release these feelings.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
So there's this approach that we use is called bibliotherapy,
and it's very simple, but we recommend texts or it
could be poetry, it could be self help books to
our clients to see if they could help them manage
to put the symptoms that they're presenting. And so I've
recommended Still I rise to a lot of my black
(08:57):
female young clients and you know, just seeing their faces
lit up, you know, knowing that you know, even though
whatever they've been through they can steal. It's possible that
they can still be resilient.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
They are queens, they.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
Are powerful, and they can rise above its basically just
recommending a text that we clinicians feel could resonate with
our clients and to have them come back and see
what it was, what their experience was like with the
text or the poetry or whatever books that we recommended,
and sometimes we even read in sessions and you know,
(09:35):
just to see what helps the clients or what resonates
with them.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
But I do think.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
It's important to you know, just going back to that
cultural competency need is I make it my prerogative to
make sure that when I'm speaking with my black clients
that I'm always speaking through a black lens, because no
matter what mental health treatment you give them, if you
give them, you know, bibliotherapy or cognitive behavioral therapy, whatever
(10:04):
approach that you're coming from, I want to give it
to them in a way that they can receive it,
you know, utilize the language that they use to help
them receive what they need clinically.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
And so it is.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
Very liberating being a therapist and I really enjoy it
and just to see my clients gravitate to certain texts
or poems or anything to help them manage their symptoms.
Is just very liberating as a therapist.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
So has either one of you been to therapy in
your lives at any point?
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Yeah, I've been to therapy. My kids go to therapy,
their mom goes to therapy. It's super important. But I
didn't always feel like that. And that is why it's
so important because for years it was a thing that
kind of was kept from us. I feel like as
people in that they sort of it was always presented
(11:03):
in pop culture like something for crazy people or corny people,
or like a weird neurotic white people. You know, you
watch like a Tom and Jerry cartoon or something. There's
always like, you know, the cliche of like being on
the couch kind of whining and not knowing who you are,
what you're about. But it's like the reality of it
is that, you know, especially as black people, we go
(11:24):
through so much. There's so many like not just invisible
threats and not just the the daily you know obvious
like oppression and aggravation and frustration, but the generational trauma
that we all carry with us. It has to be unpacked,
you know, like there's a lot of macho energy, especially
(11:45):
like in culture directed to us, especially like hip hop,
about how kind of lame it is to cry or
you know, think through your childhood or your innermost feelings.
There's a lot of like grin and Barrett suck it up,
deal with you know what I'm saying. But the reality
is like that that doesn't do anybody any good. And
(12:07):
you know, to be in a safe enough space to
open yourself up to that is extremely powerful. So in
the any device that sort of can grease the wheels
into that thinking is great, whether it's poetry or whatever
(12:28):
it is. Any sort of device that's used to help
people come to terms of how important it is and
how relevant it is is dope.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yeah, I was really I was really excited to hear
when Czaris talked about how he uses poetry with his
clients and just how it helps them to build the
confidence and to build or even find solace in the
feelings that they're having, especially when it's like a cultural
experience or something that's weighing on them because it's a
(13:02):
consistent problem, you know, whether it be systemic or just
a direct offense to our culture. To bory do you
want to add to that.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Yeah, no, you know, Jason, you make an excellent point.
It's so many of us growing up we're either told,
you know, like like those exact lines, either suck it up,
man up tough enough, or you know whatever, you know,
variance of that was appropriate for you. And I was,
you know, I was victim to that, especially early on,
(13:34):
to the point that I think I mentioned it earlier,
like poetry was my only outlet, you know, like my
high school years, early college years, prior to being anywhere
near comfortable with you know, self expression, like in a
direct sense, like with you know, with another individual, you know,
the pen in the paper, you know, And I recognize
that's an you know, antiquated, you know phrase these days,
(13:57):
but you know, the pin and the paper were my
outlet in my early twenties. I did attempt to, you know,
go to therapy. And this is where I'll say, and
you know, I don't know how you feel about it,
but I can imagine the fit is is probably the
most important thing, Like finding the right person, finding the
right sounding board, I could take years and and I
(14:20):
and I didn't realize that. So the first time I went,
I did not have a good experience. There was no connectivity,
there was no like, I didn't feel like there was
even an understanding, let alone you know, enough material to
you know, you know, to you to work with. Uh,
you know, so I gave up on it. I mean
it was only you know, it was probably a decade
later where I was in a situation where I absolutely
(14:41):
recognized no, no, no, I need to sit down and
talk to somebody, where I gave it another chance, and
then you know, it didn't it didn't even work that time.
But finding the right you know, find like I said,
finding the right voice, finding the right sounding board was
probably and I don't say this hyperbolically, probably the thing
that has me here today. So that's how important therapy
(15:03):
is for me in my life as a continued thing.
And I'm I'm feel I feel grateful that I was
able to find that, you know, that right person, because
without it, like I said, I have no idea where
I would be.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Yeah, that's what's up. And it's it's maintenance. It's it's
it's like going to the gym, Like you're not going
to go to the gym and immediately become the person
that you know you want to see in the mirror,
but like getting up and doing it every day. The
practice of it matters more than than anything else. So
it's like, if that means it takes four years of
research and testing out different therapists to find your person,
(15:38):
as long as you're getting up and getting out there
and doing the work and like committed to doing it,
like that's more than half of it.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
That That is absolutely the case, and even the piggyback
on that to put it in perspective for maybe some
of those out there that have not considered therapy or
simply are against it. The reality is to you know,
you know, to your point about that maintenance, if you
go to the gym and you work out, well, you know,
it's understandable like after the fact you go, maybe you
hit the steam room, maybe you get a massage, maybe
you take it like an anti inflammatory. It's the same
(16:09):
thing with the brain. And this actually ties back to
what you said earlier with all of the different things
that were soldiering, with all of the different things that
we are enduring on a day to day basis, as
well as the generational trauma, there's absolutely nothing wrong with
exercising that brain a little bit like get given in
little therapy to that brain after the fact, the same
(16:30):
way we would with our bodies.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
And just acknowledging that it is happening, and it's happening
to you, and you feel away and your feelings are valid.
So I think it's what I want to say, that
is just, you know, beautiful to sit with two black
men who not only take the time and put the
effort into their mental health and their mental awareness. I
(16:52):
think that's just really beautiful. I don't know if I could.
I don't know if I would be having the same
conversation ten to fifteen years ago, especially during Langston Hughes
time period, that was just unheard of because of the
stigma that surrounded therapy. So it's beautiful to see them
two being bridged together as this way of finding solid
(17:13):
comfort within our art, within our mental awareness and mental health.
And it's it's just really dope to hear futurists and
both of you talk about it in such a positive way.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Yeah. I loved hearing from him. He was really dope
and interesting and like that was one of my favorite
conversations of the season, And yeah, I love what he's doing.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah, and also sounds like even with you Jubbari as
poetry being like something like your refuge during your earlier years,
and I could say the same thing. For me, like
that was like before I even knew what poetry was, like,
I was putting words together in order to just express
and to release. And I think both of you know
this because I've mentioned it before, but at a pretty
(17:54):
unstable childhood, let's call it that. So having poetry and
having like art as this tool to express, as a device,
as this way of like getting or at least knowing
that for me internally, that what I was feeling was
real and I had a way to get it out.
And it wasn't until later that, you know, therapy became
(18:17):
a part of that, and those two kind of coupled
together while journaling and writing and inner child work and
all of those different things. So yeah, very very cool.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
You know, on the topic of therapy, I really kind
of like what's happening now. It's kind of being looked
at as like a luxury, you know, Like I feel
like younger kids look at it like Jordan's back in
the day where it's like you don't have a therapist,
you know, it's like, what are you doing my therapist? Sad.
It's like, yeah, having a therapist is like having like
(18:48):
the Jordans or the iPhone is really interesting. There's like
a cool factor to it.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Now it is totally flipped, like totally completely flipped.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
It used to be something that yeah, you wouldn't even
like you watch an episode of like Martin or you
know what I'm saying, I ain't talking the you know
what I mean, like like yeah, it's like something's wrong
with you or it's crazy. Now it's like any any
little incommunity. I need to talk to my therapist. I
can't believe it ran out of Sprite.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
You know, I was waiting all year for that Sprite Cranberry.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Yeah, oh my god, wait till I tell about this.
This is the I'm never coming back to this McDonald's.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
That was such a gen X moment right there.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Yeah, it's real, but it's all it's all in the language,
right because like you could argue that like cooking is therapeutic, right,
Like cooking sometimes for me is my therapy. I'm in
the kitchen. All the little details, the cutting, the slicing,
the feeling, all those things are part of an experience
that like nothing else matters in this moment except what
I'm doing right now. So that's like my therapy sometimes, right,
(19:50):
that was also your great grandmother's therapy. You think she
has somebody to talk to, and then you wonder why
grandma cooks so well because it's like that's her therapy,
you know what I'm saying, And like these recipes get
passed down and it's like that's that's what they did.
Or like, oh, my grandfather's really good. He could sit
in that shed all day and he'll make you a chair.
But that was his therapy.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
You know, I'm not going to lie to you. I
had never thought about it that way, but you're a
one hundred percent right, Like that was their coping mechanism.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Also for me as a young girl, like I remember
like getting my hair done with my mom, Like that
was our sessions, you know what I mean, Like back
in the day, like you would talk to your elders,
you would talk to you know, like your family, and
we would have like these that's when we had like
our heart to hearts. When I was like sitting on
the floor, sitting on a pillow with her braiding in
(20:40):
my hair, and that was like the moment where I
could just tell her how my day was, or tell
her how I was feeling.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Saturday mid mornings, our house was the spot where my
aunts and cousins would come and I would be woken
up by the smells like, oh, somebody, Okay, that's hair
because because they had that, because they had the hot
the hot hold on the damn stove.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
And I.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Remember walking and seeing that and being like, you know
that that was their that was their circle.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
All of those things but just like such an important
bonding experience, especially in my household, like cool things could
be happening at once, like somebody could be in there
here straight in the water room and somebody cooking pancakes
and the other.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Like, no, I'm mad at them now, I'm mad at them.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Oh, I kind of missed those dands.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
I really missed those days. I took it for granted,
didn't realize it wasn't gonna be forever, just being real.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Isn't it always like that? You never know the good
old days, so it's gone gone.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
I think that's kind of you know what art is
for me and allows me to like not let things
kind of permeate longer than they should, because now they
have a different there's another life for them, there's another
way for me to express it and to get it out.
So now I can let it out and sometimes share it,
sometimes not. Sometimes it just goes into a notebook, into
(22:10):
the closet or something. And I think Langston definitely did
that with a lot of his work. And we also
spoke about the loneliness. That's the thread that we kind
of can see at different times in his life for
different reasons, whether it be his very distant childhood with
his parents or just moments within his own culture, and
(22:32):
that longing of wanting to be closer to his people
or and celebrate them in the ways that he wanted to.
I completely agree with that. And as an adult, you
can't be sad too long. There's no room for it.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Life's gonna keep lifing pretty much.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
You do have to acknowledge it otherwise you kind of
you know, it's part of the process. You kind of
have to allow yourself the space to feel your feelings
but not completely drowning them. And it's interesting to think
of like loneliness as a theme because that was one
of the first things I noticed, because one of the
first pieces of research into this chapter of the podcast
(23:15):
that you know, the Lengthston used as a focal point
was the story in the church with the Revival, and
that in itself is a story of loneliness where at
least it ends in that way because he's not feeling
the way everybody's feeling. You know, he's feeling outcast, like
(23:35):
you know what I'm saying, he's alone in feeling like
he is not getting what everyone else is getting, like
he's been pulled from that.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Like God didn't respond, God wasn't there. So like whatever
your religion is or whatever your belief system is, but
to believe in something, even if this is a parent
right and to think that that parent isn't there for you,
or that spiritual guide isn't there for you in that
moment where you're expecting them, Yeah, that would. I think
(24:07):
that's very deep rooted loneliness and an example of.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
That and feeling abandoned because in a lot of ways,
like your perception of your understanding of God is based
on your understanding of your parents, you know, like these
omnipotent beings that are over you that literally gave you life,
and you know what I mean. So it's like when
you are abandoned by a parent, you can feel like,
(24:32):
you know, abandoned, full of long cosmically, yeah, yeah, this
is fun.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I think you know, his story has a lot of
weight of this loneliness, but there is light and there
is beauty. My all time favorite is the Negro Mother
because it speaks to women culture, my grandmother, the strength
that is needed to do what you have to do,
(25:06):
and knowing that what you're doing is not necessarily for you,
it's for the generations after. And I feel like that's
something that should be a true for everyone, right. I
feel like that's something that we should all carry, Like,
I'm not going to be here forever, So what is
it that's going to be left behind as a legacy?
(25:28):
As a you know, what is the fruit that I
am giving to the world? And what can I How
can my children or my children's children, the children of
the world, so to speak, how can they benefit from
that fruit? But the one palm that I found recently
that I was actually not aware of, but it speaks
to what we were saying about the life not always
(25:50):
being easy, and it's called life is fine. I went
down to the river, I sat down on the bank.
I tried to think, but couldn't, so I jumped in
and sank. I came up once and hollered. I came
up twice and cried. If that water hadn't been so cold,
I might have sunk and died. But it was cold
(26:15):
in that water. It was so cold. I took that
elevator sixteen floors above the ground. I thought about my
baby and thought I would jump down. I stood there
and I hollered. I stood there and I cried. If
it hadn't been so high, I might have jumped and died.
(26:37):
But it was high up there. It was so high.
So since I'm still living, I guess I will live on.
I could have died for love, but for living I
was born. Though you may hear me holler and you
may see me cry, I'll be dogged, baby, if you're
(27:01):
going to see me die. Life is fine. Fine is
why life is fine.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
I mean, I feel like in so many of his
poems and works, he was letting you know, like, hey,
it's not always gonna be roses, it's not always gonna
be puppies and beautiful. But at the end of the day,
you know, as long as you can persevere, you'll be okay.
And I like that one.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
I think that's an all ongoing threat in his work
for sure. So what did you guys think of The
Big Sea.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
I hadn't read it in a long time, probably since
I don't know college, so it was interesting revisiting it.
Is there any thoughts on it that jump out to
you right away?
Speaker 1 (27:47):
I think it's a great way of learning about Length
and Hughes and his adventures and his jobs and some
of the people that he came in contact with. But
I don't necessarily, like, if I had to say, oh,
I love the way that it was written and the
(28:08):
way that he described these different moments, and I really
deeply felt him in this book, I would not say that.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Did it feel to you like it was more of
him chronicling his experiences as opposed to like telling the
story in the exactly. Yeah, that's kind of what it
felt like for me, even though it was incredibly intriguing
for you know, like to learn about these things. And
you know, I think it was I think it was
doctor Dash that pointed out a couple things to us
(28:39):
that that stood out in her interview. But yeah, it
really did. It felt like, hey, Okay, this is good
to know, this is great to know. But it was
less of his voice and more of his like just
kind of breaking down what had happened.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Yeah, like kind of like regurgitis hating. Okay, that's what
happened during this time. This is what happened during this year.
And like you said, it's very interesting, but there was
something missing for me, and I think that that's what
it was, like this kind of narrative voice. This you know,
it felt very much like this chronological regurgitation of these moments.
(29:13):
And this is the poem that happened. This is the
poem that I wrote in this moment, but I still
recommend reading it for sure. And doctor Carmeletta, her insight
brought those moments that he wrote about to life. That's
the part that I found super intriguing. First of all,
(29:35):
her voice where she talks, the way she was telling
these stories, it was so captivating and the reveal of
like the things that we didn't now.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
Yeah, she was great. Was that your first time meeting
her ever?
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Yeah? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Yeah. How did you guys go about selecting her to
be a part of the process.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
I mean, there wasn't that much to it. It was
more of, uh, you know, I just looked for different
individuals that had either you know, dedicated their career like
to his works, or had something significant within their careers.
And she, she was on that list. And so the
funniest thing is is like, anytime I look up these individuals,
I'm already under the assumption Jackson's gonna have a great
(30:18):
conversation with them, doesn't it kind of it kind of
doesn't matter. But then once you start diving into them,
you realize, like, oh man, this is there are so
many different directions this could go. And she was one
of those ones that really stood out.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
She was the first or the second interview.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
She was the first for for years.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Yeah, there was a moment where we almost didn't remember,
like she was having all those connectivity issues.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Oh yeah, I do.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
I think maybe that's why it felt so much sweeter
when we finally when we finally got a hold of her.
It was so worth it that it was like, I'm
so glad that we stuck this out, because for a
minute it was like, well, let's move on to someone else,
Like there's a connectivity issue. We can't really figure it out.
It's getting kind of annoying. And obviously, but you know,
it wasn't her. I'm not trying to talk about her.
(31:10):
I'm just saying like the reality of the emotional weight
of it was like, you know, we got to keep
it moving. But I remember hearing like, Hey, guess what
we're gonna We are going to be able to talk there.
And I was like, oh, bet, that's dope. And then
when we went through it, I was like, Oh, she's dope.
She's really really cool and smart energy was great and
you know, just like a library of information. She was awesome.
(31:34):
She really was.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
It was more than worth the wait in a lot
of these conversations. And I don't know if it's necessarily
you know, when it's a certain generation, but it feels
like I'm I'm literally like pulling up a chair or
pulling up a pillow and sitting down, you know, like
listening to my grandmother or my grandfather or you know,
maybe and maybe I'm longing for that, but like that's
kind of how those conversations, just about every conversation for Hughes,
(31:57):
that's how it felt.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Yeah, I agree, especially even with Phil Parris, it did
feel like we were just sitting on a porch and
there was like, you know, land in front of us
and trees and farm or some sort trickts, and he
was also just a plethora of knowledge as well, like
(32:19):
he just you know what, the thing I liked about
speaking with him was that it wasn't necessarily about Langstone specifically,
it was about folklore and it was about the importance
of this oral tradition and that's what poetry is, right,
and him giving his life like basically dedicated his entire
(32:45):
life to recording African American history the culture around him,
and I just thought he was just super fascinating and
just like remarkable and to know and have that foresight
to start at sixteen years So yeah, it blew my mind.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
We are all the beneficiaries of it, Like if we're
being you know, doctor Ferris and you know doctor Karma,
you know doctor Dash, all of them, we are the
beneficiaries of their lifelong dedication to it. That's pretty awesome.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
It's been a great ride, and getting to meet all
those people and you know, learned from them was really
special and kind of like a one of a kind
of experience. And like we talked about yesterday, it's not
just like a fun, interesting show, but it's like we
were creating, you know, a resource for people, you know,
because there's not there's not going to be a lot
(33:38):
of spaces where you can you can hear from all
those people you just name. So it's like, you know,
it's like you're you're you're adding to the to the
culture in a really positive, dope way. So it's exciting
to be a part of.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
It, really is. And you know, I'm not great about it,
but I've been every every time I catch it, I
I share the comments from the listeners, and you know,
just last night someone said, Hey, I listened to one
episode and I'm absolutely hooked. They were, you know, shower
and praise upon your efforts and you to Jason's point,
(34:10):
this is absolutely not only a resource for folks, but
it's you know, it's it's it's meaningful. And that's not
to take anything away from any of the show that
you know, we've worked on, or any of our you know,
past deals. I'll speak for myself personally, this is the
most meaningful show that I've been a part of. So
it is awesome to be that.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Thank you both, both both Jay and T and Y
on Instagram. If you don't want to keep up with
Jason and then Jabari A Davis on Instagram Black That
is a Black Effects original series in partnership with iHeart Media.
Is written and created by myself, jack Quise Thomas and
(34:48):
executive produced alongside Dolly s. Bishop. Janelle Collins is the
director of Production, Head of Talent Nicole Spence, writer producer
Jason Torres, Our researcher and producer is Jabari Davis, and
the mix and sound design is by the Humble Duane Crawford.
Gratitude is an action, so I have to give praise
(35:09):
to those who took the time out to write a review.
Please keep sharing and we will promise to bring more
writers and greater episodes to you. Also, if you're looking
to become a writer or in search of a supportive
writing community, join me for a free creative writing session
(35:31):
on my website Black writers Room dot com, b LK
Writer's Room dot com, or hit me up directly for
more details at Underscore T h A T S P
E A c E. That's Peace.
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