October 29, 2024 • 30 mins
Today we delve into the profound impact of Octavia Butler's work on Black literature and the unique perspectives it offers.
The conversation explores various interpretations of Butler's narratives, critiques of her approach, and the historical context of Afrofuturism. It highlights the educational value of her work and its prophetic nature, emphasizing the themes of community, change, and resilience as embodied by the character Lauren Olamina in her Parable series.
The episode concludes with the dissect of a conversation between Olamina and her stepmother., "I'd rather have the stars,” I say. “The stars are free.” She shrugs. “I'd rather have the city lights back myself, the sooner the better, but the stars are free."
Interviews - In order of introduction:
Dr. Reynaldo Anderson - Black Speculative Arts Movement
Bruce Duncan - Terasem Movement Foundation
Series Links:
Read: Parable of the Sower, Kindred
Connect: Jacquees Thomas @_ThatsPeace
Learn More: OctaviaButler.com
A Black Effect Original Series
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
My name is Jacquese Thomas, and you're listening to Black Lid,
a podcast about black literature and the stories behind the storytellers.
What we focus on shapes our perception of the world,
or simply put, what we focus on matters. Attention goes
(00:22):
where attention flows. As my mother used to say to
me in my more formative years and even sometimes still
to this day, this principle holds a profound truth unique
to each individual, directing what holds our attention and what
molds our interpretation of the world. If two people were
(00:45):
standing in front of a flamboyant Hindi Willy painting, we're
admiring the intricate paper sculptures of Fabiola Jean Louis, or
watch the eccentric expression of John Coney's space is the
place each would walk away with a different impression, just
as each reader would draw unique insights from the same book.
(01:09):
What we observe, what we experience, what we come in
contact with, and the emotions they evoke deeply influence our viewpoints.
So when a visionary like Octavia Butler, whose work stretches
beyond the boundaries of speculative fiction and probes at the
very core of societal introspection. It forces us to look
(01:33):
at ourselves more deeply and who we want to be
in the future. Through several interviews with journalists, scholars, and
those who knew her personally, we uncover that there are
many interpretations of her work. Coctavia Butler's narratives offer a
(01:53):
vast spectrum of interpretation and analysis, revered universally for it
creativity and significance. Each perspective provides a unique lens through
which we can understand her contributions to literature and society.
Journalists and author Hoshanda Saunders speaks to how her work
(02:16):
and her vision can sympathize with the plight of every
black woman.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I think that there's something in our culture that makes
it hard for people to receive the wisdom and vision
of black women. There are a lot of fancy, big
words for that, but I think ultimately our labor and
(02:43):
our ways of knowing, whether you call that intuition, whether
you call that prophecy, that can be some of those things.
It could be more things than I may have words for.
But I think so much of what we, and we
meaning black women and black women writers are charged with
(03:04):
doing is reminding people of the truth, and we can
do it because in the tradition of the Combahi River
Collective that sort of laid the groundwork for intersectionality. We
experience all of the interlocking oppressions in our society, which
(03:25):
means that we can see better and further than most
other people because everything sort of affects us first and
then it affects everybody else later. Right, So, like, I
think the denial and the suppression of that has lifted.
I think it lifted during COVID and you know, racial reckoning.
I think there are still forces that would seek to
(03:47):
continue to mute our voices in different ways and in
different forms. But I think ultimately time tells the truth,
and time reveals truth, and so I think that her
work obviously has not changed. It's just that audiences now
are like, oh, here's a truth teller who's been telling
these shoes for a long time in a way that
(04:10):
maybe we couldn't receive because we weren't mature enough to
receive it, or we didn't have the openness or just
the knowledge that she was even around because who was
checking for black sci fi. That's the other thing is
that in publishing in particular and really, I think all
of our industries right which are rooted in white supremacy
(04:33):
and capitalism, and what does Angela Davis say. I think
she calls it white supremacist capitalist patriarchy. It's a big
old umbrella of intersexual problems. But because of our ignorance
in our education system and the way that we segregate
(04:55):
genre and the identities of writers, we have been missing
out on the collective wisdom of Octavia Butler. But she
was doing her work in the world, which is like
every black woman's story in America or in the world probably.
I mean, you know, that's just sort of how people
(05:16):
view us. It's the bigotry of low expectations. I respected
that she owned the fact that she protected her energy
in her time. And again that was another thing that
was really instructive to me, like, oh, Okay, you can
show up as yourself and it may mean as a
writer or as a black woman writing in the world
(05:38):
that it will take people a long time if they
appreciate you or they appreciate your work. But I mean,
would you get in return? You get your sovereignty, you
get your dignity, you get to expose others coming behind
you to that dignity and that self regard, as Tony
(05:58):
Morrison put it, and I don't know if there are
greater gifts or tools for us, Audrlor wrote and sister
outsider our white fathers say, I think therefore I am
the black mother within us, whispers, I feel therefore I
(06:19):
can be free. And in that essay, she's talking about
essentially the ways that we de emphasize, like black women's
ways of knowing, because they are not what white men
or white people view as being valid ways of knowing
things or valid sources of knowledge. And so I think
(06:43):
that that invalidation of her knowledge as being potentially visionary
is the reason why audiences are still just sort of
catching up with her. I think it's largely been invalidated
in spiritual and religious circles.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
I think a lot of that has.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
To do with colonization, our relationship to slavery or lack thereof,
and what it means for black women to be the
leaders and owners of our spiritual journeys and development, for
(07:25):
us to go directly to sources of empowerment, sources of
divine guidance without intermediaries that don't look like us.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
I think it's beautiful. I wish there was more of it.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Now.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
While Saunders highlights the empathetic reach of Butler's stories towards
black women, empowering us to be ourselves despite all, not
every critique of her work focuses solely on praise. Some
express a desire for a more robust confrontation of injustice.
(08:03):
Within speculative fiction, Doctor Ronaldo Anderson has mixed reviews and
expresses his disappointment towards Butler's approach to Kendred.
Speaker 4 (08:14):
I like her parable of the Sewer, I just don't
like Hendred Ronaldo going back in time. It's gonna be
a short story because I'm gonna kill everybody and start
an alternative timeline.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
They gonna be like, Ooh, I got to go say
massive so I can live in the future, you know.
So I'm waiting for somebody to put a ride or
do I think with say, some cousin of Sally Hemmings
in the future go back and cut off Thomas Jefferson's
head for raping her.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Every night.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
I want to see some mad Negroes with some bombs
go up and blow up Declaration all while they're working
on the Constitution. I want to see some kind of satire,
a humorous thing like that. And Parable can kind of
limit your lens because Parable does not take into consideration
politics in terms of how it influenced our domestic politics
(09:04):
that create with Donald Trump and Maga phenomenon. So you
cannot just lean on Parable of the Sword to get
an understanding of what's happening to us right now. And
so the afro futurist is like, we're using our imaginations
to do something. Yeah, we know the world is bad
or whatever, but we're not going to let it stay
the way it is. Okay, we are going to use
(09:27):
our imaginations because if our people can imagine their freedom first, oh,
they'll find the technology and the resources to make it happen.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Leading up to the introduction of Octavia's work, doctor Ronaldo
Anderson walks us through a brief history on acro futurism.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
The black specular tradition is different from sci fi. The
black specular tradition was a response to white supremacy in
this country. The science fiction tradition that in the English
speaking world really starts around a body of writers like
Age Wells and I'm in London in the late nineteenth
century during a crisis in British imperialist in American content,
(10:09):
You're you're real first person you're got to start with
that brings together science, thinking about the future, black culture
and politics, and response to racism. It's probably Benjamin Banneker.
And when you think about astro theology talking about a
race had no place in the universe. And he's responding
to Thomas Jefferson's Notes on Virginia talking about the inadequacy
(10:33):
of black people and he's taught, man, what are you
talking about? You no, I'm a genius or whatever, And
he's dealing with Thomas Jefferson's Enlightenment racism at the time.
Then Nat your books talked about conjure feminism, the conjure women.
Most people don't realize over one hundred years ago, when
you're talking about health workers, a lot of these were
the women health workers that would deliver babies. You know,
these are the women that were in who do and
(10:55):
conjure and all like this, and they were allowed and
according to his bust respect as a black prets. So
you have that in the nineteenth century. It kind of
kicks off with Batiker and then the next significant figure.
After that, you get is Martin Delaney. Martin Delaney, who's
kind of the first American, one of the first ones
that deal with what we call Egyptology now in terms
of transcribing megie meture or comedic language in response to
(11:19):
the white imposition on comedic culture. Who is back a
couple generations earlier around Managa's top Napoleon and invaded Egypt,
and white folks went crazy with all the stuff that
came out of there, and they figured out they interpret
the culture of chemedic civilization.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
So a lot of these people that set themselves up
to be like the.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
New Pharaohs of the Western Hemisphere based upon the ideas
of Francis Bacon and his idea of the new Atlantis. Okay,
their own kind of utopia. So Afro featurism in the
Black Spectors tradition becomes a counter narrative to this white
racist utopia. Then you have people like aposcorp Eavily Roundolfo
(12:00):
is the father of the spiritualist occult in America, who
is really kind of featured and talked about in Paulin
Hopkins's Book of One Blood. Then you get up there
into the late nineteenth century, Sudden Rigs his book Imperium
in Imperial the Empire within the Empire, because in the
late nineteenth century across the West, you had this influence
(12:22):
of secret societies and politics. So Suttain Riggs, who's in Texas,
he's a Baptist preacher, why it's the book Empire within
the Empire, say, black folk need to take over Texas
and have its own kind of nation within a nation.
Because back then in the South, in the late nineteenth century,
you had these secret societies that want the Confederacy to
join with Latin America to form some secret new nation
(12:43):
if they brooke away from America.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
And you have a lot of stuff related to the Masonic.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Order and the occult, and all this stuff is overlapping
with the politics of the time.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
And then you get to the early twentieth century. W. B.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
De Woi is his short story of the comment that
Sharira Na Thomas brings out in Darkwater the sci Fi,
a political piece where the boys is basically saying, the
only time white people and black people get along for
amenities in the face of a catastrophe, and as soon
as it's over, we go back to our normal behavior.
That's how ingrained racism is in the country. And then
(13:16):
fast forward you get the work of Sun Raw in Chicago,
who gets this vision of the aliens, but some Raw
and his coworker who is named is Staky at the time,
really start bringing together the threads of the Black Massonic
tradition that is influenced by Egypt in relation to the
American space race and the technology that's emerging post World
(13:38):
War Two in an urban setting, and the reconfiguration of
America as this technocratic society is beginning to take shit
in the fifties and sixties during the space age, and
then by the sixties that's where you get even bonds,
And then you get a person like Sammy Delaney's book,
and then you get a young Artavia Butler.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Miss various opinions. Some commentators, like Samuel Delaney, focus on
the educational value of Butler's work, but when we reached
out to Delaney, his response was unexpectedly brief and I quote,
some of her short stories, both early and late, make
wonderful teaching texts. Sadly, that's all I can say about
(14:22):
her work. End quote. Delaney, a former instructor of Butler's,
has sat alongside Butler on various panels, and some would
even go as far as referring to them as friends
as colleagues. So I, for one, was quite surprised by
the lack of expression and his response. Perhaps there's more
(14:43):
to that story. Nevertheless, when Octavia lived in Lake Forest, Seattle,
a young girl lived across the street from her by
the name of Sheila Blyming, who is now an associate
professor at Champlain College in Burlington, Vermont. She agrees in
all recognizes the pedagogical worth of Butler's writings. She elaborates
(15:05):
as to why.
Speaker 5 (15:07):
One of the lines that I think I probably repeat
to myself at least once a day from Parable of
the Sower, as God has changed. I love that line.
I think about it all the time because it's just
it's so indicative of her mindset too, the way she
was interested in change, but also in the way that
like nothing stays the same, there is no stability, there's
(15:29):
no stasis, everything keeps kind of moving forward. She is
somebody who I think showed us a big range of
what speculative fiction can do if we want to think
of it under those terms, imagining a way in which
we will take the circumstances of our current environment and
then be forced to think through those circumstances from the
vantage part of the past, which is really important. But
(15:51):
then she also shows us in the parable novels that
near future scenario the kind of dystopian world that feels
like it's waiting for us, and I feel like it's
like almost accessible already, or it's almost imaginable given a
lot of the ingredients that we live with right now,
you know what I mean. So it's like we can
we can see that feature that future coming to pass
(16:13):
already in the world we live in currently, in very
clear ways. And it's one of the reasons that I
love those parable texts so much is that we see
elements of the time period in which they were written,
but we also very clearly see like where the road
ahead is leading and in a way that I think
actually can inspire us to action, to think about, like, well,
(16:35):
then what do we do, Like if this is one
vision of where things can end up, what can we
do to prevent that vision or to change things? And
that's one thing I really like about Parable of the
Summer in particular, is that it gives us the sort
of reason and motivation to think through some of these
things and think about what changes we can make right now.
So it's been a while since I've taught that book,
(16:57):
and it feels more relevant with every pass year. Somehow,
it feels even more relevant than the last time I
taught it, which was I don't know, maybe twenty seventeen
or twenty eighteen. It's like the circumstances that we'd read
about in that book, with environmental degradation and political instability,
like they keep growing more and more relevant to our
(17:17):
situation with each passing year. So I'm excited to be
starting it again with this class and see what a
new generation of students thinks about it.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
While educational and analytical interpretations prevail, others view Butler's narrative
as prophetic, using Butler's fiction as a manifesto a guide
for a better tomorrow. Her foresight in predicting societal trends
and human behaviors makes her work not only relevant, but
(17:46):
indeed visionary. She was, in many ways a profit through prose.
Bruce Duncan of the Terrism Foundation Terrorism Latin for Earth
Seed is a multi decade year old movement envisioned by
the couple Martin rothblot and being a rothblot, transhumanists, futurists,
(18:08):
and certainly technologists. But what is terrorism? You can think
of it in terms of being a movement, or you
can think of it in terms of the part that
Bruce is responsible for as a private scientific research foundation
experimenting in mind uploading, reanimate it with AI and downloaded
(18:30):
into other forms as a way to enhance or extend
the quality of human life. So how do these connect?
Octavia Butler called Martine's imagination because it pose the deep questions,
what is it that organizes us as human beings into community?
And can that community look any more different any more?
(18:53):
Just any more diverse, any more inclusive? And what role
does technology in creating this new world? These questions? Octavia's
imagination inspired this movement. Bruce shares with me what he
found a pilling about Octavia's imagination.
Speaker 6 (19:13):
Well, I think Octavia Butler's vision of the future in
terms of religion, especially as she talks about it in
parable of the Sore, is that it's a flexible kind
of earth centric belief system. You know, obviously earth seed,
which inspired the term terrorism. The Terrorisam Movement foundation is
using as its moniker. But like unlike other religions current religions,
(19:38):
I think terrorism and earth Seed sees God has changed
and adapting with circumstances rather than following you know, fixed doctrines.
And while the major religions you know focus on divine
realms or an afterlife, earth Seed, the religion that Octavia
Butler talks about, is really rooted in humans responsibility to
one another and the environment.
Speaker 7 (20:00):
So it also expresses gender equity, with women and men
equally empowered in leadership, contrasting you know more traditional hierarchies
that often limit women's roles i e. You know, people
being limited in what leadership say as a priest, you know,
can only be men in certain religions. And I think
Butler's philosophy is really practical, really empathetic. It emphasizes community
(20:24):
and social justice and resilience. Her work, I think challenges
us to think about religion as an evolving force that
values inclusivity, adaptability, and the collective good, and also sees
the now as part of the path to the future.
With technology and even living off planet, maybe our birthright
(20:47):
is to be traveling and living in the cosmos instead
of just staying here. On Earth as well.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
The gambit of interpretation varies dramatically, reflecting personal perspectives and
societal contexts. But isn't that the goal as a filmmaker,
as an artist, as a transhumanist, as a writer, as
a human to inspire conversation, interests, or more creativity. Art
(21:20):
that doesn't provoke debate might as well be an emotionalist logo,
selling us a pointless product that we don't need. You
are now listening to Black Butler's work underscores the profound
(21:45):
impact of speculative fiction as both a reflection of our
world and a catalyst for meaningful dialogue. As I was
preparing for this episode, a particular question struck me. Beyond
Butler's astute prediction and the detailed analysis of the future
depicted in her powerful series, is that really the most
(22:07):
compelling element of her work? While I acknowledge that Butler's
extrapolations are impressively far sighted, I've come to realize that
focusing solely on these predictions might miss a deeper, more
nuanced aspect of her storytelling. These realizations led me to
step back and reconsider the central character driving these narratives.
(22:34):
Lauren Ooya Olamina. In many ways, Lauren embodies the multitude
of interpretations and theories that resonate throughout Butler's work, from
the specific struggles of black women to the universal search
for a belief system. Lauren is a young black girl
(22:56):
born in Los Angeles. She sits within the walls of
her community, lamenting about the world beyond. A consequential election
is looming, and astronauts are taking expensive voyages to Mars
while people kill each other over water. We can see
it in the sky, a whole other world, but two nearby,
(23:19):
too close within the reach of the people who made
such a hell of a life here on earth. Octavia wrote,
through the lens of twenty first century, Lauren, the girl
who is in this world but not of it. To
borrow a biblical phrase, the daughter of a reverend. Lauren
is surrounded by hopeful refrains and a rapidly deteriorating society,
(23:44):
all that money wasted on another crazy space trip, when
so many people here on Earth can't afford water, food,
or shelter. Octavia wrote, scarcity is the norm, and yet
no one seems to have the urgegency to deal with
how much worse things will get As the have nots
grossly outnumbered the haves. While her father preaches about a
(24:08):
version of community care that feels a lot to Lauren,
like lying to wait, Lauren has other ideas, visions of
earth Seed that preaches a new gospel, one of radical interdependence,
learning skills that will keep us alive and carving out
safety while they're still kind. In the Christian world that
(24:32):
her father are shepherds, people put their faith in a
Lord and hope to survive. Through vigilance, and an earth
Seed community, people would master skills like hunting, foraging, planting, swing,
and even defense. It's fitting then that earth Seed begins
as a series of verses the Books of the Living,
(24:55):
an alternative holy text for unprecedented times. Not everyone understands Lauren,
so she doesn't share earth Seed with many people, or
any people. Instead, she studies those around her, their motivations,
their fears, whether Earth' Seed could be the anecdote and
the answer to it all. I've been paying attention to
(25:18):
what other people believe, whether they believe, and if so,
what kind of God they believe in, Laurence says, while
in commute to the communal baptism her father planned for
the neighborhood children. Though water is hard to come by,
he and other parents insist on prioritizing God and faith.
Lauren finds it fascinating that so many people crave a
(25:41):
super person in God. In Lauren's ideal earth Seed community,
people wouldn't look to personify God to save them. They
would recognize that God is the constant change around them,
and that survival requires the will to live and to
adjust to that change without praising it or fearing it.
(26:04):
Agency can be scary to people with so much to
lose and so little to gain. Olamina is not just
a character. She is a vessel through which Butler explores
profound theories. Her life and transformation provide a narrative framework
(26:24):
that invites us to examine our societal constructs and personal beliefs.
Through Lauren, Butler not only forecas a dystopian future, but
also delves into the human responses to a societal breakdown,
the resilience required to rebuild, and the innovative foresight needed
(26:46):
to envision a new path forward. In essence, Lauren represents
the intersection of Butler's visionary intellect and her deep empathy
for humanity. A conversation with Lauren, Olamina, and her stepmother
is so telling of the world they live in, where
they each put their faith the city versus the stars,
(27:10):
people versus the universe in a lot of ways. There's
very short interaction at the end of chapter one of
parable of the Sower is a precursor for the worlds
we are about to enter. I'd rather have the stars,
says Lauren, the stars are free. Lauren's stepmother shrugs, I'd
(27:32):
rather have the city lights back myself, the sooner the better,
but we can afford the stars. The stars are free.
This line emphasizes the stars are a natural wonder that
cannot be bought or controlled, contrasting with the city lights,
which represents the artificial, controlled aspects of a society facing
(27:57):
ecological collapse. Expression from Lauren's character offers us insight into
the mind of a young girl closed in by a
deteriorating society where water is scarce, violence is constantly lurking,
expectations of her are low, politicians are confused on what
(28:20):
makes a country great, and yet young Lauren looks up
to the sky with hope, who believes in the stars,
her faith and a possibility for humans to do better.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
The society that I portray in these two books is
pretty much broken.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
I hope, of course, that we will be smarter than that.
Speaker 7 (28:47):
Are you a pessimist or an optimist?
Speaker 3 (28:49):
I'm hopeful.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Nack is a Black Effect original series in partnership with
iHeart Media. I Jackie Thomas and the creator and executive producer,
alongside Dolly s.
Speaker 7 (29:04):
Bishop.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Chanelle Collins is the director of production. It is written
by myself and Bria Baker. Our researcher and producer is
Jabari Davis, and the mix and sound design is by
the Humble Duane Crawford Special thanks to Hoshanda sounders Sheila Lyming,
Edward Champion, Ruce Duncan, and doctor Ronaldo Anderson. Join me
(29:30):
on the next episode as we continue the conversation on
Octavia Butler's life and work. Also, if you're looking to
become a writer or in search of a supportive writing community,
join me for a free creative writing session on my
website Black writers Room dot com, BLK Writer's Room dot com,
(29:52):
or hit me up directly for more details at Underscore
THHA T S Peace, That's P s P, s P,
s P, s P, s P
My name is Jacquese Thomas, and you're listening to Black Lid,
a podcast about black literature and the stories behind the storytellers.
What we focus on shapes our perception of the world,
or simply put, what we focus on matters. Attention goes
(00:22):
where attention flows. As my mother used to say to
me in my more formative years and even sometimes still
to this day, this principle holds a profound truth unique
to each individual, directing what holds our attention and what
molds our interpretation of the world. If two people were
(00:45):
standing in front of a flamboyant Hindi Willy painting, we're
admiring the intricate paper sculptures of Fabiola Jean Louis, or
watch the eccentric expression of John Coney's space is the
place each would walk away with a different impression, just
as each reader would draw unique insights from the same book.
(01:09):
What we observe, what we experience, what we come in
contact with, and the emotions they evoke deeply influence our viewpoints.
So when a visionary like Octavia Butler, whose work stretches
beyond the boundaries of speculative fiction and probes at the
very core of societal introspection. It forces us to look
(01:33):
at ourselves more deeply and who we want to be
in the future. Through several interviews with journalists, scholars, and
those who knew her personally, we uncover that there are
many interpretations of her work. Coctavia Butler's narratives offer a
(01:53):
vast spectrum of interpretation and analysis, revered universally for it
creativity and significance. Each perspective provides a unique lens through
which we can understand her contributions to literature and society.
Journalists and author Hoshanda Saunders speaks to how her work
(02:16):
and her vision can sympathize with the plight of every
black woman.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I think that there's something in our culture that makes
it hard for people to receive the wisdom and vision
of black women. There are a lot of fancy, big
words for that, but I think ultimately our labor and
(02:43):
our ways of knowing, whether you call that intuition, whether
you call that prophecy, that can be some of those things.
It could be more things than I may have words for.
But I think so much of what we, and we
meaning black women and black women writers are charged with
(03:04):
doing is reminding people of the truth, and we can
do it because in the tradition of the Combahi River
Collective that sort of laid the groundwork for intersectionality. We
experience all of the interlocking oppressions in our society, which
(03:25):
means that we can see better and further than most
other people because everything sort of affects us first and
then it affects everybody else later. Right, So, like, I
think the denial and the suppression of that has lifted.
I think it lifted during COVID and you know, racial reckoning.
I think there are still forces that would seek to
(03:47):
continue to mute our voices in different ways and in
different forms. But I think ultimately time tells the truth,
and time reveals truth, and so I think that her
work obviously has not changed. It's just that audiences now
are like, oh, here's a truth teller who's been telling
these shoes for a long time in a way that
(04:10):
maybe we couldn't receive because we weren't mature enough to
receive it, or we didn't have the openness or just
the knowledge that she was even around because who was
checking for black sci fi. That's the other thing is
that in publishing in particular and really, I think all
of our industries right which are rooted in white supremacy
(04:33):
and capitalism, and what does Angela Davis say. I think
she calls it white supremacist capitalist patriarchy. It's a big
old umbrella of intersexual problems. But because of our ignorance
in our education system and the way that we segregate
(04:55):
genre and the identities of writers, we have been missing
out on the collective wisdom of Octavia Butler. But she
was doing her work in the world, which is like
every black woman's story in America or in the world probably.
I mean, you know, that's just sort of how people
(05:16):
view us. It's the bigotry of low expectations. I respected
that she owned the fact that she protected her energy
in her time. And again that was another thing that
was really instructive to me, like, oh, Okay, you can
show up as yourself and it may mean as a
writer or as a black woman writing in the world
(05:38):
that it will take people a long time if they
appreciate you or they appreciate your work. But I mean,
would you get in return? You get your sovereignty, you
get your dignity, you get to expose others coming behind
you to that dignity and that self regard, as Tony
(05:58):
Morrison put it, and I don't know if there are
greater gifts or tools for us, Audrlor wrote and sister
outsider our white fathers say, I think therefore I am
the black mother within us, whispers, I feel therefore I
(06:19):
can be free. And in that essay, she's talking about
essentially the ways that we de emphasize, like black women's
ways of knowing, because they are not what white men
or white people view as being valid ways of knowing
things or valid sources of knowledge. And so I think
(06:43):
that that invalidation of her knowledge as being potentially visionary
is the reason why audiences are still just sort of
catching up with her. I think it's largely been invalidated
in spiritual and religious circles.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
I think a lot of that has.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
To do with colonization, our relationship to slavery or lack thereof,
and what it means for black women to be the
leaders and owners of our spiritual journeys and development, for
(07:25):
us to go directly to sources of empowerment, sources of
divine guidance without intermediaries that don't look like us.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
I think it's beautiful. I wish there was more of it.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Now.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
While Saunders highlights the empathetic reach of Butler's stories towards
black women, empowering us to be ourselves despite all, not
every critique of her work focuses solely on praise. Some
express a desire for a more robust confrontation of injustice.
(08:03):
Within speculative fiction, Doctor Ronaldo Anderson has mixed reviews and
expresses his disappointment towards Butler's approach to Kendred.
Speaker 4 (08:14):
I like her parable of the Sewer, I just don't
like Hendred Ronaldo going back in time. It's gonna be
a short story because I'm gonna kill everybody and start
an alternative timeline.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
They gonna be like, Ooh, I got to go say
massive so I can live in the future, you know.
So I'm waiting for somebody to put a ride or
do I think with say, some cousin of Sally Hemmings
in the future go back and cut off Thomas Jefferson's
head for raping her.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Every night.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
I want to see some mad Negroes with some bombs
go up and blow up Declaration all while they're working
on the Constitution. I want to see some kind of satire,
a humorous thing like that. And Parable can kind of
limit your lens because Parable does not take into consideration
politics in terms of how it influenced our domestic politics
(09:04):
that create with Donald Trump and Maga phenomenon. So you
cannot just lean on Parable of the Sword to get
an understanding of what's happening to us right now. And
so the afro futurist is like, we're using our imaginations
to do something. Yeah, we know the world is bad
or whatever, but we're not going to let it stay
the way it is. Okay, we are going to use
(09:27):
our imaginations because if our people can imagine their freedom first, oh,
they'll find the technology and the resources to make it happen.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Leading up to the introduction of Octavia's work, doctor Ronaldo
Anderson walks us through a brief history on acro futurism.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
The black specular tradition is different from sci fi. The
black specular tradition was a response to white supremacy in
this country. The science fiction tradition that in the English
speaking world really starts around a body of writers like
Age Wells and I'm in London in the late nineteenth
century during a crisis in British imperialist in American content,
(10:09):
You're you're real first person you're got to start with
that brings together science, thinking about the future, black culture
and politics, and response to racism. It's probably Benjamin Banneker.
And when you think about astro theology talking about a
race had no place in the universe. And he's responding
to Thomas Jefferson's Notes on Virginia talking about the inadequacy
(10:33):
of black people and he's taught, man, what are you
talking about? You no, I'm a genius or whatever, And
he's dealing with Thomas Jefferson's Enlightenment racism at the time.
Then Nat your books talked about conjure feminism, the conjure women.
Most people don't realize over one hundred years ago, when
you're talking about health workers, a lot of these were
the women health workers that would deliver babies. You know,
these are the women that were in who do and
(10:55):
conjure and all like this, and they were allowed and
according to his bust respect as a black prets. So
you have that in the nineteenth century. It kind of
kicks off with Batiker and then the next significant figure.
After that, you get is Martin Delaney. Martin Delaney, who's
kind of the first American, one of the first ones
that deal with what we call Egyptology now in terms
of transcribing megie meture or comedic language in response to
(11:19):
the white imposition on comedic culture. Who is back a
couple generations earlier around Managa's top Napoleon and invaded Egypt,
and white folks went crazy with all the stuff that
came out of there, and they figured out they interpret
the culture of chemedic civilization.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
So a lot of these people that set themselves up
to be like the.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
New Pharaohs of the Western Hemisphere based upon the ideas
of Francis Bacon and his idea of the new Atlantis. Okay,
their own kind of utopia. So Afro featurism in the
Black Spectors tradition becomes a counter narrative to this white
racist utopia. Then you have people like aposcorp Eavily Roundolfo
(12:00):
is the father of the spiritualist occult in America, who
is really kind of featured and talked about in Paulin
Hopkins's Book of One Blood. Then you get up there
into the late nineteenth century, Sudden Rigs his book Imperium
in Imperial the Empire within the Empire, because in the
late nineteenth century across the West, you had this influence
(12:22):
of secret societies and politics. So Suttain Riggs, who's in Texas,
he's a Baptist preacher, why it's the book Empire within
the Empire, say, black folk need to take over Texas
and have its own kind of nation within a nation.
Because back then in the South, in the late nineteenth century,
you had these secret societies that want the Confederacy to
join with Latin America to form some secret new nation
(12:43):
if they brooke away from America.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
And you have a lot of stuff related to the Masonic.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Order and the occult, and all this stuff is overlapping
with the politics of the time.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
And then you get to the early twentieth century. W. B.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
De Woi is his short story of the comment that
Sharira Na Thomas brings out in Darkwater the sci Fi,
a political piece where the boys is basically saying, the
only time white people and black people get along for
amenities in the face of a catastrophe, and as soon
as it's over, we go back to our normal behavior.
That's how ingrained racism is in the country. And then
(13:16):
fast forward you get the work of Sun Raw in Chicago,
who gets this vision of the aliens, but some Raw
and his coworker who is named is Staky at the time,
really start bringing together the threads of the Black Massonic
tradition that is influenced by Egypt in relation to the
American space race and the technology that's emerging post World
(13:38):
War Two in an urban setting, and the reconfiguration of
America as this technocratic society is beginning to take shit
in the fifties and sixties during the space age, and
then by the sixties that's where you get even bonds,
And then you get a person like Sammy Delaney's book,
and then you get a young Artavia Butler.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Miss various opinions. Some commentators, like Samuel Delaney, focus on
the educational value of Butler's work, but when we reached
out to Delaney, his response was unexpectedly brief and I quote,
some of her short stories, both early and late, make
wonderful teaching texts. Sadly, that's all I can say about
(14:22):
her work. End quote. Delaney, a former instructor of Butler's,
has sat alongside Butler on various panels, and some would
even go as far as referring to them as friends
as colleagues. So I, for one, was quite surprised by
the lack of expression and his response. Perhaps there's more
(14:43):
to that story. Nevertheless, when Octavia lived in Lake Forest, Seattle,
a young girl lived across the street from her by
the name of Sheila Blyming, who is now an associate
professor at Champlain College in Burlington, Vermont. She agrees in
all recognizes the pedagogical worth of Butler's writings. She elaborates
(15:05):
as to why.
Speaker 5 (15:07):
One of the lines that I think I probably repeat
to myself at least once a day from Parable of
the Sower, as God has changed. I love that line.
I think about it all the time because it's just
it's so indicative of her mindset too, the way she
was interested in change, but also in the way that
like nothing stays the same, there is no stability, there's
(15:29):
no stasis, everything keeps kind of moving forward. She is
somebody who I think showed us a big range of
what speculative fiction can do if we want to think
of it under those terms, imagining a way in which
we will take the circumstances of our current environment and
then be forced to think through those circumstances from the
vantage part of the past, which is really important. But
(15:51):
then she also shows us in the parable novels that
near future scenario the kind of dystopian world that feels
like it's waiting for us, and I feel like it's
like almost accessible already, or it's almost imaginable given a
lot of the ingredients that we live with right now,
you know what I mean. So it's like we can
we can see that feature that future coming to pass
(16:13):
already in the world we live in currently, in very
clear ways. And it's one of the reasons that I
love those parable texts so much is that we see
elements of the time period in which they were written,
but we also very clearly see like where the road
ahead is leading and in a way that I think
actually can inspire us to action, to think about, like, well,
(16:35):
then what do we do, Like if this is one
vision of where things can end up, what can we
do to prevent that vision or to change things? And
that's one thing I really like about Parable of the
Summer in particular, is that it gives us the sort
of reason and motivation to think through some of these
things and think about what changes we can make right now.
So it's been a while since I've taught that book,
(16:57):
and it feels more relevant with every pass year. Somehow,
it feels even more relevant than the last time I
taught it, which was I don't know, maybe twenty seventeen
or twenty eighteen. It's like the circumstances that we'd read
about in that book, with environmental degradation and political instability,
like they keep growing more and more relevant to our
(17:17):
situation with each passing year. So I'm excited to be
starting it again with this class and see what a
new generation of students thinks about it.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
While educational and analytical interpretations prevail, others view Butler's narrative
as prophetic, using Butler's fiction as a manifesto a guide
for a better tomorrow. Her foresight in predicting societal trends
and human behaviors makes her work not only relevant, but
(17:46):
indeed visionary. She was, in many ways a profit through prose.
Bruce Duncan of the Terrism Foundation Terrorism Latin for Earth
Seed is a multi decade year old movement envisioned by
the couple Martin rothblot and being a rothblot, transhumanists, futurists,
(18:08):
and certainly technologists. But what is terrorism? You can think
of it in terms of being a movement, or you
can think of it in terms of the part that
Bruce is responsible for as a private scientific research foundation
experimenting in mind uploading, reanimate it with AI and downloaded
(18:30):
into other forms as a way to enhance or extend
the quality of human life. So how do these connect?
Octavia Butler called Martine's imagination because it pose the deep questions,
what is it that organizes us as human beings into community?
And can that community look any more different any more?
(18:53):
Just any more diverse, any more inclusive? And what role
does technology in creating this new world? These questions? Octavia's
imagination inspired this movement. Bruce shares with me what he
found a pilling about Octavia's imagination.
Speaker 6 (19:13):
Well, I think Octavia Butler's vision of the future in
terms of religion, especially as she talks about it in
parable of the Sore, is that it's a flexible kind
of earth centric belief system. You know, obviously earth seed,
which inspired the term terrorism. The Terrorisam Movement foundation is
using as its moniker. But like unlike other religions current religions,
(19:38):
I think terrorism and earth Seed sees God has changed
and adapting with circumstances rather than following you know, fixed doctrines.
And while the major religions you know focus on divine
realms or an afterlife, earth Seed, the religion that Octavia
Butler talks about, is really rooted in humans responsibility to
one another and the environment.
Speaker 7 (20:00):
So it also expresses gender equity, with women and men
equally empowered in leadership, contrasting you know more traditional hierarchies
that often limit women's roles i e. You know, people
being limited in what leadership say as a priest, you know,
can only be men in certain religions. And I think
Butler's philosophy is really practical, really empathetic. It emphasizes community
(20:24):
and social justice and resilience. Her work, I think challenges
us to think about religion as an evolving force that
values inclusivity, adaptability, and the collective good, and also sees
the now as part of the path to the future.
With technology and even living off planet, maybe our birthright
(20:47):
is to be traveling and living in the cosmos instead
of just staying here. On Earth as well.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
The gambit of interpretation varies dramatically, reflecting personal perspectives and
societal contexts. But isn't that the goal as a filmmaker,
as an artist, as a transhumanist, as a writer, as
a human to inspire conversation, interests, or more creativity. Art
(21:20):
that doesn't provoke debate might as well be an emotionalist logo,
selling us a pointless product that we don't need. You
are now listening to Black Butler's work underscores the profound
(21:45):
impact of speculative fiction as both a reflection of our
world and a catalyst for meaningful dialogue. As I was
preparing for this episode, a particular question struck me. Beyond
Butler's astute prediction and the detailed analysis of the future
depicted in her powerful series, is that really the most
(22:07):
compelling element of her work? While I acknowledge that Butler's
extrapolations are impressively far sighted, I've come to realize that
focusing solely on these predictions might miss a deeper, more
nuanced aspect of her storytelling. These realizations led me to
step back and reconsider the central character driving these narratives.
(22:34):
Lauren Ooya Olamina. In many ways, Lauren embodies the multitude
of interpretations and theories that resonate throughout Butler's work, from
the specific struggles of black women to the universal search
for a belief system. Lauren is a young black girl
(22:56):
born in Los Angeles. She sits within the walls of
her community, lamenting about the world beyond. A consequential election
is looming, and astronauts are taking expensive voyages to Mars
while people kill each other over water. We can see
it in the sky, a whole other world, but two nearby,
(23:19):
too close within the reach of the people who made
such a hell of a life here on earth. Octavia wrote,
through the lens of twenty first century, Lauren, the girl
who is in this world but not of it. To
borrow a biblical phrase, the daughter of a reverend. Lauren
is surrounded by hopeful refrains and a rapidly deteriorating society,
(23:44):
all that money wasted on another crazy space trip, when
so many people here on Earth can't afford water, food,
or shelter. Octavia wrote, scarcity is the norm, and yet
no one seems to have the urgegency to deal with
how much worse things will get As the have nots
grossly outnumbered the haves. While her father preaches about a
(24:08):
version of community care that feels a lot to Lauren,
like lying to wait, Lauren has other ideas, visions of
earth Seed that preaches a new gospel, one of radical interdependence,
learning skills that will keep us alive and carving out
safety while they're still kind. In the Christian world that
(24:32):
her father are shepherds, people put their faith in a
Lord and hope to survive. Through vigilance, and an earth
Seed community, people would master skills like hunting, foraging, planting, swing,
and even defense. It's fitting then that earth Seed begins
as a series of verses the Books of the Living,
(24:55):
an alternative holy text for unprecedented times. Not everyone understands Lauren,
so she doesn't share earth Seed with many people, or
any people. Instead, she studies those around her, their motivations,
their fears, whether Earth' Seed could be the anecdote and
the answer to it all. I've been paying attention to
(25:18):
what other people believe, whether they believe, and if so,
what kind of God they believe in, Laurence says, while
in commute to the communal baptism her father planned for
the neighborhood children. Though water is hard to come by,
he and other parents insist on prioritizing God and faith.
Lauren finds it fascinating that so many people crave a
(25:41):
super person in God. In Lauren's ideal earth Seed community,
people wouldn't look to personify God to save them. They
would recognize that God is the constant change around them,
and that survival requires the will to live and to
adjust to that change without praising it or fearing it.
(26:04):
Agency can be scary to people with so much to
lose and so little to gain. Olamina is not just
a character. She is a vessel through which Butler explores
profound theories. Her life and transformation provide a narrative framework
(26:24):
that invites us to examine our societal constructs and personal beliefs.
Through Lauren, Butler not only forecas a dystopian future, but
also delves into the human responses to a societal breakdown,
the resilience required to rebuild, and the innovative foresight needed
(26:46):
to envision a new path forward. In essence, Lauren represents
the intersection of Butler's visionary intellect and her deep empathy
for humanity. A conversation with Lauren, Olamina, and her stepmother
is so telling of the world they live in, where
they each put their faith the city versus the stars,
(27:10):
people versus the universe in a lot of ways. There's
very short interaction at the end of chapter one of
parable of the Sower is a precursor for the worlds
we are about to enter. I'd rather have the stars,
says Lauren, the stars are free. Lauren's stepmother shrugs, I'd
(27:32):
rather have the city lights back myself, the sooner the better,
but we can afford the stars. The stars are free.
This line emphasizes the stars are a natural wonder that
cannot be bought or controlled, contrasting with the city lights,
which represents the artificial, controlled aspects of a society facing
(27:57):
ecological collapse. Expression from Lauren's character offers us insight into
the mind of a young girl closed in by a
deteriorating society where water is scarce, violence is constantly lurking,
expectations of her are low, politicians are confused on what
(28:20):
makes a country great, and yet young Lauren looks up
to the sky with hope, who believes in the stars,
her faith and a possibility for humans to do better.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
The society that I portray in these two books is
pretty much broken.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
I hope, of course, that we will be smarter than that.
Speaker 7 (28:47):
Are you a pessimist or an optimist?
Speaker 3 (28:49):
I'm hopeful.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Nack is a Black Effect original series in partnership with
iHeart Media. I Jackie Thomas and the creator and executive producer,
alongside Dolly s.
Speaker 7 (29:04):
Bishop.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Chanelle Collins is the director of production. It is written
by myself and Bria Baker. Our researcher and producer is
Jabari Davis, and the mix and sound design is by
the Humble Duane Crawford Special thanks to Hoshanda sounders Sheila Lyming,
Edward Champion, Ruce Duncan, and doctor Ronaldo Anderson. Join me
(29:30):
on the next episode as we continue the conversation on
Octavia Butler's life and work. Also, if you're looking to
become a writer or in search of a supportive writing community,
join me for a free creative writing session on my
website Black writers Room dot com, BLK Writer's Room dot com,
(29:52):
or hit me up directly for more details at Underscore
THHA T S Peace, That's P s P, s P,
s P, s P, s P
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