August 27, 2025 • 40 mins
In this lively roundtable discussion, host Jacquees Thomas sits down with some of her favorite book influencers to unpack the fictional novel Sky Full of Elephants. Joining the conversation are Jordan Hernandez, founder of Completely Booked; Chase Griffin and Shaquille Anderson, co-founders of Booked and Busy Book Club; and Anne, creator of LaGringaBaiana.
Together, they dive into each guest’s personal journey and the inspirations behind their literary platforms while exploring the complex themes woven into Cebo Campbell’s Sky Full of Elephants. The discussion highlights the layered perspectives of characters like Sydney and Charlie, the emotional weight of forgiveness and identity, and the possibility of adapting the novel into a series.
The panel also reflects on the unspoken influence of setting; how Alabama’s charged history and the ocean’s symbolic presence act as characters of their own, shaping the narrative’s depth and impact.
This episode offers an intimate look at the power of literature to inspire community and culture—and how that same community can uplift an artist’s perspective, even in the absence of mainstream media support.
Connect:
Jacquees "Peace" Thomas @_ThatsPeace
Jordan Hernandez @_CompletelyBooked
Chase Griffin & Shaquille Anderson @BookedandBusyBookClub_
Anne @LaGringaBaiana
Read: SKY FULL OF ELEPHANTS
Learn More: CeboCampbell.com
Special Thanks to @CeboCampbell
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
My name is Jacqueess Thomas, and you're listening to black Lit,
a podcast about black literature and the stories behind the storytellers.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
My my name is Jordan Hernandez, and I am the
founder and curator of completely Booked, which is a book
community mostly on Instagram page and book club.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
She is just out here representing all literature across the spectrum.
One thing that stood out to me it was her
selections and then I realized she was like downhill for me.
So that also made me be like WHOA okay, and
then I kind of I guess I just pulled up
to an event that she was having because I just
(00:47):
saw it like I was swiping, and I was like,
wait a minute, this is so close. And I just
walked by and I met her and her sister and
then I was like, girl, I gotta have you on
at some point.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
At some point is Shakes Griffin, a co founder per
se of Booked and Busy book Club.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Shaquille Anderson from Oklahoma, based out of Dallas, Sex is
now currently chasing myself. Both started Booked in Busy book
Club officially about five years ago now, so we're in
here five Yeah. I decided to be an econnected with you.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Guys, Chase and Shaquille. That was kind of like more
of a low key Instagram talking. But what thing I
love about both of them, both of them and booked
and busy is like a lot of the times you
don't hear a lot of black mel voices. So when
I came across what you were doing and the events
(01:39):
and stuff that you were throwing, I just thought it
was just really special and I wanted to highlight.
Speaker 5 (01:43):
That my name is Anne, have my social media called
La Gringa Buyana or at Lagringa Bayana, depending on your accent.
I pretty much make videos based on like languages that
I speak.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
So Ann is such a I think you're such a wordsmith.
For one, I think you just have a really beautiful
way of articulating the books that you highlight and also
to she did a I don't know if you guys
had a chance, but she did a cover of sky
Full of Elephants and I was just like wow, and
I wanted to have her almost had me in tears
(02:21):
on Instagram. I was like, what how did you do that?
Speaker 4 (02:26):
My heart?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I don't know, but it was really beautiful to have
her here as well, because she offered a different perspective
as we all have read the book or all from
different backgrounds, but I think one thing that Anne was
able to share was a perspective from a different race,
and especially the race that was removed from the world
(02:48):
or America anyways in the book. Then we had a
conversation last week that was really beautiful. So I want
to thank you, thank you all for being here really
really really really appreciated love. Before we even get into
the book, though, I would love to understand a little
bit more of your back journey, Jordan. Why did you
start completely booked? Like, what was the inspiration? What was
(03:11):
the first like instinct that make you say, Okay, I'm
doing this.
Speaker 6 (03:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
So that's a really good question, and I love getting
this because I think with the community that I have now,
a lot of people are like, oh, how do.
Speaker 6 (03:22):
I build that?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Right?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
I do have a lot of people that reach out
and you all probably do as well, maybe Chase you
more specifically about well how do I grow au book
club or how do I do this? And I didn't
come from it from that way, didn't come from it
as like a business aspect or honestly even an influencer
aspect right, I read a lot, which particularly when I
(03:44):
was commuting from the Jersey Shore to New.
Speaker 6 (03:47):
York a little bit. I was commuting from through sort
of Dumbo, Brooklyn, so I had a lot of time.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
And then I was commuting from the Jersey Shore to Manhattan,
and then I just kind of kept reading when.
Speaker 6 (03:57):
I moved to Hoboken, but I would read it.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Your friends would be like, oh, you know, I really
like what you're reading, and I would just mention it
to them, and so on my own personal Instagram every
other week I did a book post and just started
calling a completely book because I do a lot of
different things and so the whole idea, I think completely
booked is truly my life. And then on February twenty fourth,
twenty twenty, I was like, you know, let me just
make this its own thing, not knowing that in three
(04:22):
weeks we'd all be inside with a whole lot of
time to be reading and a whole lot of time everything,
and it just kind of grew from there. I was
a horrible reader as a child. If there was a
reading comprehension test in school, I failed it. I was
I'm still a horrible test taker. I not did not
do overly well at SATs. I did not send my
(04:44):
SATs Toyota University, where I ended up going to college.
I still, even like today, I looked up this book
a lot because I read it a couple of months ago,
and the reading comprehension is just not It's not there.
And so I, just as an adult, came into reading.
So I try to tell parents all the time, your
kid hates reading, maybe they will end up being a
book influencer one day.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
You never know.
Speaker 6 (05:05):
It's fine, let them like, let them, let them be
for a minute. But yeah, it just kind of grew
from from there.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
And I think just the genuine love and passion that
I have for reading and sharing and hearing other stories
is really where I'm coming from.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
Chase and I we were introduced to through a mutual
friend of ours during COVID at the end of like
twenty twenty man. We had like a game night, and
we were connecting and talking about our love for reading
and all of that, you know, like you meet people
that say they want to read, like cool, and then
we follow each other on social media and stuff like that,
and then it was maybe, if not like a month
(05:41):
or so later or he posted something about starting a
book club and I was like, hey, bro, like, let's
do it together like I would love to. And then
the rest kind of Boston from there took his community
of people he knew, my community people I knew, and
kind of merge them together and booked them busy. It
was birth from that.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
So I love the tea shirt books my love language.
I need that. I think we all need that. That
might you might need to, you know, sell that somewhere,
And I know you don't have a book club, but
you kind of touched on what made you start.
Speaker 7 (06:17):
Mine would be just a deep admiration for everybody that
runs book clubs, because I literally I think my book
reading is very much a sporadic thing. It's kind of
a hyper focus on one book and I'm like digiti,
bishing ever and then I find my next thing. And
I think the structure of being able to create a
community around books is such an inspiring thing to do,
and it's so cool that.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
There's so much more variety.
Speaker 7 (06:40):
I think also, like with the pandemic and with the
amount of people that were able to be like, yes,
let's come together. Maybe not physically we can't, but I
think that formation is just so cool. So I'm just
happy to be here because you guys are awesome.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
So that's all about. I was like saying to myself
in the back of my head because Jabari and Jason
were laughing at me, because like, you shouldn't say book talker.
It sounds a little harsh. I was like, what is
the word?
Speaker 8 (07:06):
I know, book talkers. We got your book talking anyways.
I think book talkers like book talkers like TikTok, which
I don't even understand TikTok anymore. I'm like, oh, if
i'd just like there's like book gram, book talk, book tube,
book something else.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
I'm just like a weirdo on the internet talking about.
Speaker 7 (07:26):
I think that's about it.
Speaker 6 (07:27):
Really.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
The idea for black lit came during COVID. I was
home as we all were twiddling my fingers. I was like, Okay,
what do we do? What do I do? And I
think the question dawned on me though, was like, if
I am not able to make films, because that's what
I was like predominantly doing. If I can't be on set,
if we can't you know, get content, if we can't shoot,
(07:51):
what am I going to do? So maybe like kind
of go back to my adolescents in earlier years and
like rediscovering the love of just letters and words and
poetry and reading. So that set me down as rabbit hole,
and then I was like, Okay, I think there's more
that I need to be doing, and there's more that
I can potentially create a platform to celebrate and to
(08:15):
highlight the books and authors that I love. And I
just so happened to be working for Black Effect, and
like I guess it was two years ago. I went
to them and I said, hey, what's up. It was
much more eloquent than that, but they were like, yeah,
we wouldn't and here we are today. So I'm really
(08:36):
really excited to have you all here because, like I said,
I've been watching you all and like just kind of
in all of everyone and all of that you do.
And obviously there's more people are who are now gravitating
towards literature, which is I think super exciting to see
that even more bookstores are opening up and even just
(08:57):
like pop ups and different things like that. So I'm
really really excited to see how that evolves and where
that goes regarding literature and the reason why I brought
you guys also on for this particular book is because
sky Full of Elephants I don't think would be on
the long list for Mark Twain if it wasn't for
(09:21):
book clubs and book talk and book Tube and book Instagram.
When I interviewed him, that was the one thing that
he really truly made sure to mention. He was like,
you know, when the book came out, people weren't touching it.
The media outlets were not touching. He had like two
write ups, and now he's long listed. So I applaud
(09:44):
you all for that because I didn't even know about
it either. I think I saw it and I was
like every book club that I follow every book, I
was like, Okay, clearly I need to read sky Fell
of Elephants. I kind of want to go a little
bit into you know, It's funny because I also ask
them about this, but I'm curious to know which characters
(10:05):
stood out to you the most.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
Sydney of course, but I think not for the reasons
like in our book club in particular, I feel like
people were very frustrated with Sydney, like they were I
I and maybe it's just like my own personal life
or experience. I have a mixed sister and she didn't
(10:31):
meet me, myself, or my other siblings or any people
from her black side until she was sixteen years old.
And it was a crazy like culture shock and it
you know, I know, and I empathize with Sydney so
like everybody was so like harsh and cool on her,
and I'm just like, this girl does not know like
(10:51):
and not if you add the aspect of obviously like
her losing her own the family that she knows. I'm
just like, what do y'all want this nineteen year old
to like respond to this?
Speaker 6 (11:00):
You know?
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Like, so I identified with Sidney, but more so in
a way where I was like, no, I hear you, like,
and I know, like you don't want to hear that,
but I'm like, no, Like, I feel like Sydney needed
a little bit more grace.
Speaker 6 (11:11):
I'll start dating.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
So, yeah, Sidney, she probably was my most like character
that I feel like I had some like the most
empathy for and just kind of understood.
Speaker 6 (11:21):
Yeah, I think I got there with her empathy wise.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I think in the beginning, my question was probably similar
to a lot of people of like you were curious
about some black people, like you know, like you knew
you knew this, right, Like she knew that fact about herself.
It's not like she didn't know that she was half black,
and because I think if she didn't then could pass
fully as white, then that's totally different, you know, conversation.
Speaker 6 (11:43):
But the fact that she knew, I think that was
my question of.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
And like what time Periodviously, this is a fake book
right to sopian society and speculative you know, fantasy and
all the genres that you can put this book into.
That I kind of feel like maybe it was like
eighties nineties mindset where like white is right and this
is what you do. She didn't even care about being black,
whereas like maybe if she was a like, you know,
(12:11):
gen Z gen alpha type person, she definitely would have
gone if she couldn't meet her actual father, she would
have connected with some kind of black community growing up
as well. So I was just kind of like, you
weren't curious, like curiosity didn't get the best of you.
And then you know, as the story progressed, I think
I felt a little differently.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Yeah, you know, I it's funny because that was the
first time that I was I had no voice, but
I was so listening in on Bucked and Busy for
their book club, and the amount of like reaction to
suit me was like this girl, I am over her,
Like they could not stand this character. And it's so
(12:52):
interesting though, because honestly, when I first, similar to you Churet,
when I first started reading, I was like, Okay, okay,
it's chapter ten. Okay. I was like, okay, getting there,
We're getting there. But by chapter twenty one, and that's
when I really like, that's how important that chapter was
(13:15):
for me, because it's completely stood out and it showed
me what her experience really was, like what was happening
in her heart, in her mind and her identity and
her not being able to kind of come face to
face with that until that moment. But the other thing,
(13:35):
and I'm curious if you guys agree, but I think
that she kind of personified like every stage of grief
throughout the entire book, and that's the part that really, like,
I was like, that's the part that resonated with me
to most. So by the end of the book, I
was like, Oh, she's so important. She was so she
was like all of the even the annoyingness of her
(13:56):
was important.
Speaker 6 (13:57):
I think that's so real.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
I think that's like because when you here and again
going back to like the initial reaction, like when I
immediately hear like, okay, every white person is out of America,
I immediately think of like, oh, there are so many
problems are solved, right, and it's like great, like this
is amazing. We can we can be this, Eeves and
we can be you know we Nepotism starts and ends
with us, right, like like all of these great things
(14:20):
that could happen, but there are a lot of and
obviously we can get into the social content the.
Speaker 6 (14:25):
System of racism and race in general. But yeah, it's
not as easy.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
It quite literally is not ends up not being black
and white.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
Yeah, And I think with Sydney like in particular, Yeah,
I guess it's interesting that people didn't. I feel like
I felt that very quickly because again, like she the
loss happens, she immediately feels the grief in the loss
because she is the person that is held back, even
(14:55):
when you feel like maybe I belong to go with
them because that was my family, like a mad.
Speaker 7 (15:01):
You thought your whole life to be that way, because
it's like if you thought your whole life to be accepted.
If that's your full identity is locked into that whiteness.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
Absolutely that maybe I should go absolutely yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Me because it's it's locked into that whiteness. But at
the same time, these are the people that you love,
These are the people. This is your mom, you know,
like no matter what color she is, Like, where are
you going?
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Did any of you guys catch the whole the lavender
and why people kept putting that throughout the book?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Don't share it, but because you like it better? Are
you sure?
Speaker 6 (15:41):
No?
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Please?
Speaker 7 (15:42):
Ann No, because you said because teacherues that, because she
said to give grace. Because when we think about lavender,
and we think about it's calming, it's relaxing, it's quieting.
It's something to say like take a moment, breathe, like
let it go through. And so you'd said this, which
I didn't realize until you said it, and it was
like he did contine need to kind of that flashback
to the lavender of like give her a second. It
(16:04):
was like, give her grace, let her think it through.
Like she's in this process, she's growing, she's changing, it's
just going to take a minute.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Well, the lavendar too, with the mom.
Speaker 7 (16:12):
I think something too about the I loved the heritage
part of like she talks about her mother's ancestors. It
shows just this this lineage and this pride that she
was given from her mother's side, but not from So
it was interesting where it's like your mother is with you,
but at the same time, like you need to take
that time and you need to breathe and you need
to like realize what is actually going on in that space,
(16:33):
which is fascinating. I would say too, like with Sydney
is funny because Sydney from a side of me being
my side is like a lot of the stuff that
Sydney's family brings in a lot of their narrative, a
lot of their opinions, a lot of some of her
split of like I look one way and the kids
around me look another way. Like I was reason of
(16:53):
like kind of very white community. So I think unpacking
some of that was also fascinating for me to go
through her head, her narratives and be like, oh, geez,
yeah that is in a lot of our minds. So yeah,
that is there, But she's like living in a completely
different perspective where she is in the middle. Like you said,
where she hasn't leaned into her blackness at all, or
to her past or whatever that is. So it was
(17:14):
kind of amazing for me to watch that too. Of Like,
I grew up in the Midwest predominantly white, and so
watching what her family said or what her past was
and then her having to lean into this future was
cool to watch for.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Me at least. I will say for Sydney that the
thing that actually resonated with me the most was when
they when she kept using the words special, it really
brought me to my childhood and my adolescence because my
word was different, right, And it wasn't because of my race.
So it's just because I was just a weird kid,
like you know what I mean, Like I was into
(17:50):
weird things. I like doing things that weren't like with
my normal like the not normal, but what like with
my neighbors and with my friends and the kids at
my school were too right. So I was considered weird
and it took me a long time to realize like
weird was my superpower and it wasn't like something that
was bad for me. So every time I heard her
say special, I was like, oh, I know what she
(18:12):
what she means by that, I am curious about Charlie.
Let's get into Charlie really quickly, and I have a
question for you, And this is a question that I'm
going to ask all of you, but it's also a
question I'm asking you myself because I still haven't quite
figured out why and what was the significance of Charlie
being formally incarcerated was but being innocent? Like what did
(18:37):
you guys have any thoughts about that and why he
was Why was he incarcerated for being innocent versus being
an actual like criminal, Like why did Sebel choose that
kind of perspective for his character?
Speaker 4 (18:51):
I think you wanted to draw a complexity to the
story because if you, if you unfortunately look up, like
I've dealt with some of these situations, I have an
incarcerated person in my family. When you are incarcerated obviously
serving time or whatever, and you're doing that literally in innocence,
(19:12):
you are rightfully justified to come out and have animosity
and anger and hatred towards somebody who did that to
you because they did that to him, like that was
the thing that was done to him, and it's like
it makes it to where, well, now you have this
this kid who is a direct reflection, reminder, sore spot
(19:35):
trigger for that thing that was done to you. And
but then like, still you are the bigger person. Still
you are the person that prevails. I mean, so, I
think it just adds complexity to that character. And I
think they wrote it also to like set it up
for Sydney to like come to some hard truths and
(19:56):
realizations about herself and her background as well later on,
because he had been like an actual person who assaulted
somebody whatever. But then it's easy for her to also
stay in her lane and stay a heart thought process
and say you're bad and whatever. And so I just
I think that was the reason, in my opinion, that
they wrote it that way.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
I think you just inspired something for me, but anyone
else look care to share.
Speaker 6 (20:19):
I mean, I think I didn't really think of it
that way until you just pose it.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
But I feel like there's so many institutions with black men,
specifically where they are incarcerated. Maybe they're not actually in jail,
maybe there's no actual court case or trial or anything
like that, but they're innocent, right, Like there's unfortunately, some
of some of those situations end in death with the police.
There're sometimes where maybe you're passed over for a promotion
in the workplace, or maybe someone accuses you of stealing
(20:46):
something or looking at them the wrong way in to
store or whatever, and you are just living your life,
minding your own business as a black person, but as
a black man specifically, and you are quote unquote in
these like jail situations, incarcerats and incarcerated situations, trouble situations
for just being.
Speaker 7 (21:05):
I think Elizabeth was interesting for me as well of
her choice of which I think that also that decision
of like her daughter trying to accept why she did
what she did or something like that, that was also
interesting from at least from like from my knowing that
wanting to maintain the status quo and not thinking and
(21:25):
not actually realizing what that choice is For me, that
was also as pactful as well. It was like Charlie,
like you said, Charlie still chose to become above that,
he still chose to not join amosity, He still chose
to have faith in his daughter. But when even when
he knows what was done to keep a system that
was completely ingest and like made no sense. But it
(21:48):
was just like what this kind of just happens, and
it was infuriating for me actually to be like, you've
got to be kidding me, Like that's I think since
I don't read this, it's new for me to read
kind of different for a variety of books, and still
reading it from that perspective, for while seeing elizabeths and
seeing her daughter reading the letter, which just like god, wow,
(22:08):
I think for and where like I haven't been the
receiving side of it obviously, so it's very fascinating for
me to read that this is the thing and he
does it so well, he presents it just like well,
that's just you know, he's innocent, but yeah, that's just
what we do.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
And I was like, you've got to be shitting So
So I love conversations like this because like having hearing
all of your perspectives and answers like now I was like, oh,
I asked the question, now like oh, now I have
I haven't Like yes, yes, all of these answers make
so much sense. And also too, it's like the overarching
(22:45):
like just the theme is forgiveness and that's the story
between him and his daughter, that is the story between
the act that put him in prison. It's like I
don't know why that took so long to dawn on me,
But anyways, like you were saying, and I think it's
like because or even why was he in jail in
the first place, But like even like that when they
(23:06):
open up the doors and let all the prisoners go,
that was like one of the first moments or one
moment in the book where I was like, Okay, well,
I'm going to have to like really let this book
be imaginative, because if we let all these criminals out here,
I don't know what's about to happen, you know.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
Makes me that makes me just like think about like
that makes me reflect on our criminal system and think
about like how unrehabilitating it actually is, because the fact
that that's the doll process, if all these people were
to get out, is for us to be in fear
and animosity. It's like how much are we feeling them,
you know, like as the people who are supposed to
(23:49):
be the support and the help and the rehabilitators and
showing people the way. And so I love that it
showed him getting out and like being a positive force
because then it forces you to look at how many
years of this did y'all take away? From him, y'all
steal from him where he could have been impactful and
making an impact, you know.
Speaker 7 (24:08):
So yeah, the amount of people that go in for
whatever reason and coming out you tend to find that
they don't. It's a lot of those experiences they are
never like positive. And it's like, even if someone kind
of is there and is kind of gentle, it almost
makes you not that way because the system was built
(24:29):
to kind of break you as what is like that
they kind of want to keep you that way, so
that stays in that cycle. And so the breaking of
it so intentionally and so gently is really cool. That's yeah,
and not the Segway. But that's another reason why they
ban certain books in prisons, right. They make sure that
they don't have access to these things so that they
(24:49):
can nurture their minds.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
You are listening to black Lit. I would love to
know which character was for each of you. And it
doesn't even have to be a person, because mine is
not a person. I gave Water its own character in
(25:18):
my mind because I was like, it was so pivotal
and it had such a like such a personality and
purpose and just everything about it that that was like
probably one thing that I really really really enjoyed about
the book, not the part that it you know, did
what it did to white people, but don't know what
to me so but I would love to know, like
(25:39):
what what parts are, what characters are, even just a
significant chapter that really resonated with you the most.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
I think for me, I think it was I think
it was Charlie. I think just his his path to life,
reclaiming his agency, pros, seeing like trauma, his patience, the
complex like path of reconciliation he had to go through.
(26:10):
For me, I think it was I would I would
desire and I would want to strive to have that
level of like patience and like forgiveness. And I think
just seeing his kind of his path all the way
to the end kind of I don't want, I don't
want to spoiler for anyone listening, but kind of seeing
(26:32):
his journey to me was was huge. I think reconciliation
definitely in my life, you know, personally, is one thing
that over the years I wanted to definitely work on with,
you know, people in my family, family members. So seeing
him kind of work through that with with Sydney was
huge to me stood out.
Speaker 7 (26:52):
Nice any others, I am just like three as a
unit of like seraph and Vivian Nona just I think
as as a as a woman who is still trying
to figure out how to how to woman. Sometimes, I
think the confidence and a presence in your body and
(27:13):
a willingness to exist in your power and also your
femininity and the capacity to extend that to someone else
without like it's not giving exactly. Like it was fascinating
watching Sydney and Nona's interaction and the way that Nonah
kind of almost kind of gently just kind of coaxes
(27:34):
even though Sydney is just like like through a lot
of that process, I think, I'm just just Seraphin's descriptions
and Saraphin's just existence and even the effect she can
have on Charlie of just this calm and this ancestral
understanding and this power of like this is what I am,
(27:55):
this is what I am capable of, and it just
isn't your being. And I think that's something that I
as a woman who wants to be able to just
exist in that confidence, because I think as a society,
women are not really taught to do that, and we
aren't taught to be smaller to give gift give, and
so I loved watching these three and even just all
(28:17):
the women in these environments of how they're like, no,
this is this is what I am worth, this is
who I am, This is how I exist, and you
shall rise to the occasion or I'm not going to
waste my energy, but in like the most loving, gentle,
inspiring way possible, which I just adore those and the
descriptions and the way that he paints the pictures in
(28:38):
the rooms and the spaces and the clothing and the textures,
just I'm.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Like, h it was so good. Yeah, I think I
love that little package again. Chapter twenty one. I keep
going back to that because that was the main chapter
when Sydney goes to known as room and she is
like just surrounded by that confidence of Nona and the
(29:04):
way he describes it. But that moment, to me was
so pivotal for her for the book because it gave
you so much insight into who this young who these
two young ladies are, and the ends of the spectrum
that they both were on, which was just like so
(29:25):
just completely different. But it allowed Sidney that just that
moment to be like to question her her why, like
question that little part in her that just wasn't confident
about who she was and it made her see how
she could be. And I thought that was beautiful, Shack.
(29:45):
I think you were going to say something.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
I was going to jump in and say, I think
one part that gets like, I won't say looked over,
but it's a very insignificant but in my eyes, very
significant part when he stops on the way to going
to get Sydney and he meets the elderly lady who
kind of pretty much like really confirms the path that
(30:07):
he's on and like gives him a piece of familiarity
that just kind of comforts him, could send dinner and
just kind of just supports and just tell him like, hey,
this is like this is my role right now, Like
this is where I'm at for people, for our people
in particular, this is where you don't want to go,
This is where you may want to go, you know,
wherever you choose to go, Like this is my path
(30:29):
along that and I'm confident and where I am. And
I feel like that just gave him so much reassurance
on that journey. And I feel like that was obviously
just him spending the night there, and it was one thing,
and I felt like that was just like a cool.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Adding in the story.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
And I love that piece and I love that character
even she only had like a small like a little
butter so.
Speaker 7 (30:50):
Like the rage that she could like the rage and
the deep power of her, and yet also the gentleness
and the quietness of her was so amazing, could be like,
holy crap did you do? But also come on and
just have some person. It's incredibly just the both.
Speaker 6 (31:07):
She was like all of our grandmothers.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
I don't know, my grandmother was not quiet.
Speaker 6 (31:18):
She has a quiet. She has a.
Speaker 7 (31:23):
Yeah, it's like an I'll murder you quiet, Like I
don't even like my grandma had.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
To look she was like, oh well yeah she had
that look.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
Well yeah, sometimes I got to say nothing.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
I just you know, you just know you feel nothing, Jordan,
does she want to add.
Speaker 6 (31:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
I mean, I think if it seemed for for me
as as you in terms of it not being actual person,
what I thought made the most impact on me in
terms of like character wise was definitely being set in Alabama.
But I think that before that is just the like
well roundedness of the women in the book. And see
what we talked about that on my book club of
just how many strong women he grew up with and
(32:03):
just making sure that that was reflected in the book.
And I think he did an excellent job. And if
he's paying homage to his own family and the own
women that he has surrounded himself with throughout his life,
he did them proud, I would say. But I think
just their journey, and maybe more so than Alabama, the
actual journey from the Midwest to Alabama was just so pivotal.
(32:24):
All this is there's so much that happens in the
airport and on the plane and then you know, then
them actually just like getting there and just the significance
at the South has for black people. You know, he
obviously talks about it being the birthplace of Marti Gras
and them having like the big set up, you know,
party as similar to Marti Gras that they have down there.
So I just think that setting they're really in my opinion,
(32:46):
couldn't be anywhere else where. It was going to be
where people are going to reconvene, specifically Black people, with
significance that that has for us in this country.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Can you see this as a series, I.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Think I think if it was turned into something for television, Netflix.
Speaker 6 (33:06):
Netflix is going to give.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Us episodes, so I always it's always it's going to
be a show. But I think if it was, like
I don't the only thing I could see is maybe
a little bit of like a prequel book that's actually
written after this, Like The Hate You Give has the prequel,
Like there's a lot of books, but like it has
the prequel, and Stephen Ruby King is the same, the
same kind of setup with the preofbel actually came out
(33:28):
after the initial story. I would be interested to know
a little bit more about like Elizabeth honestly, a little
bit of backstory of Sydney growing up.
Speaker 6 (33:38):
Actually, like like the first couple of days that Charlie's in.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Jail, like some of that story, But I don't necessarily
know like a series of what happens after this.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
See.
Speaker 4 (33:47):
I feel like there's so much in this book that
it could easily be like a short series like eight episodes.
I feel like you can easily go into like Charlie's
background with him and Elizabeth them being together in the
trial and going to like you can like show that
on screen, and that'd be like extremely powerful him being
(34:09):
in there that you fast forward and he's older and
he's twenty coming out. I feel like that could be
like episodes in itself, and then obviously like him traveling
over there and him and Sydney's journey and meeting the
pilot and then you get to Alabama. Like I feel
like they could drag that thing out for sure, and
like it could be not in a negative way.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
This book would be an eight series, eight part series,
and you would go in and out. I think if
he was to write something else, I would want a
frequel to this absolutely.
Speaker 7 (34:43):
I feel yeah, I feel like too, there would be
something at least for I think. I think Orange Beach
is a very weird and uncomfortable scenario, but I think
that as someone who is in an experience where there's
a lot of people where we're removing our heads from
(35:05):
our anuses about certain things, I think that Orange Beach
would also be an interesting one to kind of sit
on because the discomfort of that and the maintainance of
a reality and some of the points that the boys
make with how it's all still functioning and like the
(35:28):
way that it is the way that it is, and
like Agnes in particular, like there's just a lot and
I think that it would be also interesting if you
did a series, you could also look at the experiences
because he touches on the indigenous peoples as well. In
the story, he talks about, you know, all different expressions
and like, what would an Indigenous person actually feel will
be their narrative? All the people are all the white
(35:49):
people are dead, what would that be like? Or Asian
or Indian or Latino or.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Black like whatever that is.
Speaker 7 (36:00):
There are so many different experiences where it's like, I
imagine there is a suppression that exists among everybody, but
at the same time, like we said, it's not a monolith,
and so everybody would have their own reactions to it.
And that's where you get these stories like Malcolm, and
you get the stories like Orange Beach or they're like.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
What everage happening?
Speaker 6 (36:17):
I don't get.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
It and just this one.
Speaker 7 (36:20):
Instead of leaning into something new and leaning into something
beautiful and so much healthier, they're trying to hold onto something.
And I think a lot of people, especially now today,
are doing that, where they're just holding on to something
that they're comfortable with. And I think a series depending
you could switch the perspectives of different people and to
see what they went through and how they perceive this experience.
That could be cool, even bringing in different directors for
(36:42):
different episodes or something like that and be like, Okay,
this is from this point and this point and this point,
because it's so vast on like that. But I know
sitting on the event is not exactly the point sometimes,
so I guess it maybe depends on what you want
to see. Yeah, spread out in the story.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
I mean, I guess see it. I see it. I
could see all the controversy. I could see it being
canceled like Lovecraft Country. That's I don't want I'm not
even gonna speak that to this. I wanted to go
as long as it camp, but I was like one
of my favorite favorite favorite shows. But that show had
so much like just truth in it and so much
honesty and so many different like controversial topics and historic points.
(37:23):
And I think that's why it didn't get to season two.
But I heard that it wasn't actually supposed to have
a season two. I'm not sure, but shout out to
me Shagreen though, if you, if you get a season
two somewhere somehow, please do it. We are waiting and
maybe work with Cibo for a sky full of elephants
to bring this to life. It's a little secret though,
(37:44):
it is going to be made. Yeah, Laurence Fishburn bought
the rights to it.
Speaker 6 (37:51):
Oh when you were gonna eat this up?
Speaker 4 (37:53):
Oh?
Speaker 7 (37:53):
So many have to see.
Speaker 6 (37:58):
All that. I don't really go to theaters and stuff,
but if it's in theaters, I will go. No TV,
oh TV. They can feel comfortable right in their own homes.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Is going to be on the couch. Just like, how
do I feel about this?
Speaker 4 (38:14):
This is gonna be like a movie. Wouldn't do it?
It's not you. It's too much. It's too much. So yeah,
this is awesome.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Yeah that's what I said. I was like, what.
Speaker 4 (38:28):
Shout out to him and shout out to social media
because what.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Yeah, to not get any reviews and stuff to then
go to Lawrence like that's insane on.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Your debut novel. Yeah this is I mean, I'll told you,
but I was like, this is us.
Speaker 6 (38:45):
You know great, you have a player there.
Speaker 8 (38:49):
Yeah, I'm about to startcast, said, and we're about to
be producer.
Speaker 6 (38:56):
Honestly, I'll put them back in towards this right.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
I'm so excited for it. I really really, really truly
am and I just want to say thank you all
for joining this conversation. We're doing the work and celebrating literature.
Black Lit is a Black Effects original series in partnership
with iHeart Media. Is written and created by myself Jacquise
Thomas and executive produced alongside Dolly s. Bishop. Chanelle Collins
(39:24):
is the director of Production, Head of talent Nicole Spence,
writer producer Jason Torres, Our researcher and producer is Jabari Davis,
and the mix and sound design is by the humble
Duane Crawford. Gratitude is an action, so I have to
give praise to those who took the time out to
write a review. Please keep sharing and we will promise
(39:46):
to bring more writers and greater episodes to you. Special
thanks to everyone that you heard on this episode. La Gringa, Vianna,
Shaquil and Chase from The Booked and Busy book Club,
Jordan and Hernandez from Completely Booked, and of course ce
Bo Campbell
My name is Jacqueess Thomas, and you're listening to black Lit,
a podcast about black literature and the stories behind the storytellers.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
My my name is Jordan Hernandez, and I am the
founder and curator of completely Booked, which is a book
community mostly on Instagram page and book club.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
She is just out here representing all literature across the spectrum.
One thing that stood out to me it was her
selections and then I realized she was like downhill for me.
So that also made me be like WHOA okay, and
then I kind of I guess I just pulled up
to an event that she was having because I just
(00:47):
saw it like I was swiping, and I was like,
wait a minute, this is so close. And I just
walked by and I met her and her sister and
then I was like, girl, I gotta have you on
at some point.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
At some point is Shakes Griffin, a co founder per
se of Booked and Busy book Club.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Shaquille Anderson from Oklahoma, based out of Dallas, Sex is
now currently chasing myself. Both started Booked in Busy book
Club officially about five years ago now, so we're in
here five Yeah. I decided to be an econnected with you.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Guys, Chase and Shaquille. That was kind of like more
of a low key Instagram talking. But what thing I
love about both of them, both of them and booked
and busy is like a lot of the times you
don't hear a lot of black mel voices. So when
I came across what you were doing and the events
(01:39):
and stuff that you were throwing, I just thought it
was just really special and I wanted to highlight.
Speaker 5 (01:43):
That my name is Anne, have my social media called
La Gringa Buyana or at Lagringa Bayana, depending on your accent.
I pretty much make videos based on like languages that
I speak.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
So Ann is such a I think you're such a wordsmith.
For one, I think you just have a really beautiful
way of articulating the books that you highlight and also
to she did a I don't know if you guys
had a chance, but she did a cover of sky
Full of Elephants and I was just like wow, and
I wanted to have her almost had me in tears
(02:21):
on Instagram. I was like, what how did you do that?
Speaker 4 (02:26):
My heart?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I don't know, but it was really beautiful to have
her here as well, because she offered a different perspective
as we all have read the book or all from
different backgrounds, but I think one thing that Anne was
able to share was a perspective from a different race,
and especially the race that was removed from the world
(02:48):
or America anyways in the book. Then we had a
conversation last week that was really beautiful. So I want
to thank you, thank you all for being here really
really really really appreciated love. Before we even get into
the book, though, I would love to understand a little
bit more of your back journey, Jordan. Why did you
start completely booked? Like, what was the inspiration? What was
(03:11):
the first like instinct that make you say, Okay, I'm
doing this.
Speaker 6 (03:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
So that's a really good question, and I love getting
this because I think with the community that I have now,
a lot of people are like, oh, how do.
Speaker 6 (03:22):
I build that?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Right?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
I do have a lot of people that reach out
and you all probably do as well, maybe Chase you
more specifically about well how do I grow au book
club or how do I do this? And I didn't
come from it from that way, didn't come from it
as like a business aspect or honestly even an influencer
aspect right, I read a lot, which particularly when I
(03:44):
was commuting from the Jersey Shore to New.
Speaker 6 (03:47):
York a little bit. I was commuting from through sort
of Dumbo, Brooklyn, so I had a lot of time.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
And then I was commuting from the Jersey Shore to Manhattan,
and then I just kind of kept reading when.
Speaker 6 (03:57):
I moved to Hoboken, but I would read it.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Your friends would be like, oh, you know, I really
like what you're reading, and I would just mention it
to them, and so on my own personal Instagram every
other week I did a book post and just started
calling a completely book because I do a lot of
different things and so the whole idea, I think completely
booked is truly my life. And then on February twenty fourth,
twenty twenty, I was like, you know, let me just
make this its own thing, not knowing that in three
(04:22):
weeks we'd all be inside with a whole lot of
time to be reading and a whole lot of time everything,
and it just kind of grew from there. I was
a horrible reader as a child. If there was a
reading comprehension test in school, I failed it. I was
I'm still a horrible test taker. I not did not
do overly well at SATs. I did not send my
(04:44):
SATs Toyota University, where I ended up going to college.
I still, even like today, I looked up this book
a lot because I read it a couple of months ago,
and the reading comprehension is just not It's not there.
And so I, just as an adult, came into reading.
So I try to tell parents all the time, your
kid hates reading, maybe they will end up being a
book influencer one day.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
You never know.
Speaker 6 (05:05):
It's fine, let them like, let them, let them be
for a minute. But yeah, it just kind of grew
from from there.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
And I think just the genuine love and passion that
I have for reading and sharing and hearing other stories
is really where I'm coming from.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
Chase and I we were introduced to through a mutual
friend of ours during COVID at the end of like
twenty twenty man. We had like a game night, and
we were connecting and talking about our love for reading
and all of that, you know, like you meet people
that say they want to read, like cool, and then
we follow each other on social media and stuff like that,
and then it was maybe, if not like a month
(05:41):
or so later or he posted something about starting a
book club and I was like, hey, bro, like, let's
do it together like I would love to. And then
the rest kind of Boston from there took his community
of people he knew, my community people I knew, and
kind of merge them together and booked them busy. It
was birth from that.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
So I love the tea shirt books my love language.
I need that. I think we all need that. That
might you might need to, you know, sell that somewhere,
And I know you don't have a book club, but
you kind of touched on what made you start.
Speaker 7 (06:17):
Mine would be just a deep admiration for everybody that
runs book clubs, because I literally I think my book
reading is very much a sporadic thing. It's kind of
a hyper focus on one book and I'm like digiti,
bishing ever and then I find my next thing. And
I think the structure of being able to create a
community around books is such an inspiring thing to do,
and it's so cool that.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
There's so much more variety.
Speaker 7 (06:40):
I think also, like with the pandemic and with the
amount of people that were able to be like, yes,
let's come together. Maybe not physically we can't, but I
think that formation is just so cool. So I'm just
happy to be here because you guys are awesome.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
So that's all about. I was like saying to myself
in the back of my head because Jabari and Jason
were laughing at me, because like, you shouldn't say book talker.
It sounds a little harsh. I was like, what is
the word?
Speaker 8 (07:06):
I know, book talkers. We got your book talking anyways.
I think book talkers like book talkers like TikTok, which
I don't even understand TikTok anymore. I'm like, oh, if
i'd just like there's like book gram, book talk, book tube,
book something else.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
I'm just like a weirdo on the internet talking about.
Speaker 7 (07:26):
I think that's about it.
Speaker 6 (07:27):
Really.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
The idea for black lit came during COVID. I was
home as we all were twiddling my fingers. I was like, Okay,
what do we do? What do I do? And I
think the question dawned on me though, was like, if
I am not able to make films, because that's what
I was like predominantly doing. If I can't be on set,
if we can't you know, get content, if we can't shoot,
(07:51):
what am I going to do? So maybe like kind
of go back to my adolescents in earlier years and
like rediscovering the love of just letters and words and
poetry and reading. So that set me down as rabbit hole,
and then I was like, Okay, I think there's more
that I need to be doing, and there's more that
I can potentially create a platform to celebrate and to
(08:15):
highlight the books and authors that I love. And I
just so happened to be working for Black Effect, and
like I guess it was two years ago. I went
to them and I said, hey, what's up. It was
much more eloquent than that, but they were like, yeah,
we wouldn't and here we are today. So I'm really
(08:36):
really excited to have you all here because, like I said,
I've been watching you all and like just kind of
in all of everyone and all of that you do.
And obviously there's more people are who are now gravitating
towards literature, which is I think super exciting to see
that even more bookstores are opening up and even just
(08:57):
like pop ups and different things like that. So I'm
really really excited to see how that evolves and where
that goes regarding literature and the reason why I brought
you guys also on for this particular book is because
sky Full of Elephants I don't think would be on
the long list for Mark Twain if it wasn't for
(09:21):
book clubs and book talk and book Tube and book Instagram.
When I interviewed him, that was the one thing that
he really truly made sure to mention. He was like,
you know, when the book came out, people weren't touching it.
The media outlets were not touching. He had like two
write ups, and now he's long listed. So I applaud
(09:44):
you all for that because I didn't even know about
it either. I think I saw it and I was
like every book club that I follow every book, I
was like, Okay, clearly I need to read sky Fell
of Elephants. I kind of want to go a little
bit into you know, It's funny because I also ask
them about this, but I'm curious to know which characters
(10:05):
stood out to you the most.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
Sydney of course, but I think not for the reasons
like in our book club in particular, I feel like
people were very frustrated with Sydney, like they were I
I and maybe it's just like my own personal life
or experience. I have a mixed sister and she didn't
(10:31):
meet me, myself, or my other siblings or any people
from her black side until she was sixteen years old.
And it was a crazy like culture shock and it
you know, I know, and I empathize with Sydney so
like everybody was so like harsh and cool on her,
and I'm just like, this girl does not know like
(10:51):
and not if you add the aspect of obviously like
her losing her own the family that she knows. I'm
just like, what do y'all want this nineteen year old
to like respond to this?
Speaker 6 (11:00):
You know?
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Like, so I identified with Sidney, but more so in
a way where I was like, no, I hear you, like,
and I know, like you don't want to hear that,
but I'm like, no, Like, I feel like Sydney needed
a little bit more grace.
Speaker 6 (11:11):
I'll start dating.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
So, yeah, Sidney, she probably was my most like character
that I feel like I had some like the most
empathy for and just kind of understood.
Speaker 6 (11:21):
Yeah, I think I got there with her empathy wise.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
I think in the beginning, my question was probably similar
to a lot of people of like you were curious
about some black people, like you know, like you knew
you knew this, right, Like she knew that fact about herself.
It's not like she didn't know that she was half black,
and because I think if she didn't then could pass
fully as white, then that's totally different, you know, conversation.
Speaker 6 (11:43):
But the fact that she knew, I think that was
my question of.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
And like what time Periodviously, this is a fake book
right to sopian society and speculative you know, fantasy and
all the genres that you can put this book into.
That I kind of feel like maybe it was like
eighties nineties mindset where like white is right and this
is what you do. She didn't even care about being black,
whereas like maybe if she was a like, you know,
(12:11):
gen Z gen alpha type person, she definitely would have
gone if she couldn't meet her actual father, she would
have connected with some kind of black community growing up
as well. So I was just kind of like, you
weren't curious, like curiosity didn't get the best of you.
And then you know, as the story progressed, I think
I felt a little differently.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Yeah, you know, I it's funny because that was the
first time that I was I had no voice, but
I was so listening in on Bucked and Busy for
their book club, and the amount of like reaction to
suit me was like this girl, I am over her,
Like they could not stand this character. And it's so
(12:52):
interesting though, because honestly, when I first, similar to you Churet,
when I first started reading, I was like, Okay, okay,
it's chapter ten. Okay. I was like, okay, getting there,
We're getting there. But by chapter twenty one, and that's
when I really like, that's how important that chapter was
(13:15):
for me, because it's completely stood out and it showed
me what her experience really was, like what was happening
in her heart, in her mind and her identity and
her not being able to kind of come face to
face with that until that moment. But the other thing,
(13:35):
and I'm curious if you guys agree, but I think
that she kind of personified like every stage of grief
throughout the entire book, and that's the part that really, like,
I was like, that's the part that resonated with me
to most. So by the end of the book, I
was like, Oh, she's so important. She was so she
was like all of the even the annoyingness of her
(13:56):
was important.
Speaker 6 (13:57):
I think that's so real.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
I think that's like because when you here and again
going back to like the initial reaction, like when I
immediately hear like, okay, every white person is out of America,
I immediately think of like, oh, there are so many
problems are solved, right, and it's like great, like this
is amazing. We can we can be this, Eeves and
we can be you know we Nepotism starts and ends
with us, right, like like all of these great things
(14:20):
that could happen, but there are a lot of and
obviously we can get into the social content the.
Speaker 6 (14:25):
System of racism and race in general. But yeah, it's
not as easy.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
It quite literally is not ends up not being black
and white.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
Yeah, And I think with Sydney like in particular, Yeah,
I guess it's interesting that people didn't. I feel like
I felt that very quickly because again, like she the
loss happens, she immediately feels the grief in the loss
because she is the person that is held back, even
(14:55):
when you feel like maybe I belong to go with
them because that was my family, like a mad.
Speaker 7 (15:01):
You thought your whole life to be that way, because
it's like if you thought your whole life to be accepted.
If that's your full identity is locked into that whiteness.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
Absolutely that maybe I should go absolutely yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Me because it's it's locked into that whiteness. But at
the same time, these are the people that you love,
These are the people. This is your mom, you know,
like no matter what color she is, Like, where are
you going?
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Did any of you guys catch the whole the lavender
and why people kept putting that throughout the book?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Don't share it, but because you like it better? Are
you sure?
Speaker 6 (15:41):
No?
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Please?
Speaker 7 (15:42):
Ann No, because you said because teacherues that, because she
said to give grace. Because when we think about lavender,
and we think about it's calming, it's relaxing, it's quieting.
It's something to say like take a moment, breathe, like
let it go through. And so you'd said this, which
I didn't realize until you said it, and it was
like he did contine need to kind of that flashback
to the lavender of like give her a second. It
(16:04):
was like, give her grace, let her think it through.
Like she's in this process, she's growing, she's changing, it's
just going to take a minute.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Well, the lavendar too, with the mom.
Speaker 7 (16:12):
I think something too about the I loved the heritage
part of like she talks about her mother's ancestors. It
shows just this this lineage and this pride that she
was given from her mother's side, but not from So
it was interesting where it's like your mother is with you,
but at the same time, like you need to take
that time and you need to breathe and you need
to like realize what is actually going on in that space,
(16:33):
which is fascinating. I would say too, like with Sydney
is funny because Sydney from a side of me being
my side is like a lot of the stuff that
Sydney's family brings in a lot of their narrative, a
lot of their opinions, a lot of some of her
split of like I look one way and the kids
around me look another way. Like I was reason of
(16:53):
like kind of very white community. So I think unpacking
some of that was also fascinating for me to go
through her head, her narratives and be like, oh, geez,
yeah that is in a lot of our minds. So yeah,
that is there, But she's like living in a completely
different perspective where she is in the middle. Like you said,
where she hasn't leaned into her blackness at all, or
to her past or whatever that is. So it was
(17:14):
kind of amazing for me to watch that too. Of Like,
I grew up in the Midwest predominantly white, and so
watching what her family said or what her past was
and then her having to lean into this future was
cool to watch for.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Me at least. I will say for Sydney that the
thing that actually resonated with me the most was when
they when she kept using the words special, it really
brought me to my childhood and my adolescence because my
word was different, right, And it wasn't because of my race.
So it's just because I was just a weird kid,
like you know what I mean, Like I was into
(17:50):
weird things. I like doing things that weren't like with
my normal like the not normal, but what like with
my neighbors and with my friends and the kids at
my school were too right. So I was considered weird
and it took me a long time to realize like
weird was my superpower and it wasn't like something that
was bad for me. So every time I heard her
say special, I was like, oh, I know what she
(18:12):
what she means by that, I am curious about Charlie.
Let's get into Charlie really quickly, and I have a
question for you, And this is a question that I'm
going to ask all of you, but it's also a
question I'm asking you myself because I still haven't quite
figured out why and what was the significance of Charlie
being formally incarcerated was but being innocent? Like what did
(18:37):
you guys have any thoughts about that and why he
was Why was he incarcerated for being innocent versus being
an actual like criminal, Like why did Sebel choose that
kind of perspective for his character?
Speaker 4 (18:51):
I think you wanted to draw a complexity to the
story because if you, if you unfortunately look up, like
I've dealt with some of these situations, I have an
incarcerated person in my family. When you are incarcerated obviously
serving time or whatever, and you're doing that literally in innocence,
(19:12):
you are rightfully justified to come out and have animosity
and anger and hatred towards somebody who did that to
you because they did that to him, like that was
the thing that was done to him, and it's like
it makes it to where, well, now you have this
this kid who is a direct reflection, reminder, sore spot
(19:35):
trigger for that thing that was done to you. And
but then like, still you are the bigger person. Still
you are the person that prevails. I mean, so, I
think it just adds complexity to that character. And I
think they wrote it also to like set it up
for Sydney to like come to some hard truths and
(19:56):
realizations about herself and her background as well later on,
because he had been like an actual person who assaulted
somebody whatever. But then it's easy for her to also
stay in her lane and stay a heart thought process
and say you're bad and whatever. And so I just
I think that was the reason, in my opinion, that
they wrote it that way.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
I think you just inspired something for me, but anyone
else look care to share.
Speaker 6 (20:19):
I mean, I think I didn't really think of it
that way until you just pose it.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
But I feel like there's so many institutions with black men,
specifically where they are incarcerated. Maybe they're not actually in jail,
maybe there's no actual court case or trial or anything
like that, but they're innocent, right, Like there's unfortunately, some
of some of those situations end in death with the police.
There're sometimes where maybe you're passed over for a promotion
in the workplace, or maybe someone accuses you of stealing
(20:46):
something or looking at them the wrong way in to
store or whatever, and you are just living your life,
minding your own business as a black person, but as
a black man specifically, and you are quote unquote in
these like jail situations, incarcerats and incarcerated situations, trouble situations
for just being.
Speaker 7 (21:05):
I think Elizabeth was interesting for me as well of
her choice of which I think that also that decision
of like her daughter trying to accept why she did
what she did or something like that, that was also
interesting from at least from like from my knowing that
wanting to maintain the status quo and not thinking and
(21:25):
not actually realizing what that choice is For me, that
was also as pactful as well. It was like Charlie,
like you said, Charlie still chose to become above that,
he still chose to not join amosity, He still chose
to have faith in his daughter. But when even when
he knows what was done to keep a system that
was completely ingest and like made no sense. But it
(21:48):
was just like what this kind of just happens, and
it was infuriating for me actually to be like, you've
got to be kidding me, Like that's I think since
I don't read this, it's new for me to read
kind of different for a variety of books, and still
reading it from that perspective, for while seeing elizabeths and
seeing her daughter reading the letter, which just like god, wow,
(22:08):
I think for and where like I haven't been the
receiving side of it obviously, so it's very fascinating for
me to read that this is the thing and he
does it so well, he presents it just like well,
that's just you know, he's innocent, but yeah, that's just
what we do.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
And I was like, you've got to be shitting So
So I love conversations like this because like having hearing
all of your perspectives and answers like now I was like, oh,
I asked the question, now like oh, now I have
I haven't Like yes, yes, all of these answers make
so much sense. And also too, it's like the overarching
(22:45):
like just the theme is forgiveness and that's the story
between him and his daughter, that is the story between
the act that put him in prison. It's like I
don't know why that took so long to dawn on me,
But anyways, like you were saying, and I think it's
like because or even why was he in jail in
the first place, But like even like that when they
(23:06):
open up the doors and let all the prisoners go,
that was like one of the first moments or one
moment in the book where I was like, Okay, well,
I'm going to have to like really let this book
be imaginative, because if we let all these criminals out here,
I don't know what's about to happen, you know.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
Makes me that makes me just like think about like
that makes me reflect on our criminal system and think
about like how unrehabilitating it actually is, because the fact
that that's the doll process, if all these people were
to get out, is for us to be in fear
and animosity. It's like how much are we feeling them,
you know, like as the people who are supposed to
(23:49):
be the support and the help and the rehabilitators and
showing people the way. And so I love that it
showed him getting out and like being a positive force
because then it forces you to look at how many
years of this did y'all take away? From him, y'all
steal from him where he could have been impactful and
making an impact, you know.
Speaker 7 (24:08):
So yeah, the amount of people that go in for
whatever reason and coming out you tend to find that
they don't. It's a lot of those experiences they are
never like positive. And it's like, even if someone kind
of is there and is kind of gentle, it almost
makes you not that way because the system was built
(24:29):
to kind of break you as what is like that
they kind of want to keep you that way, so
that stays in that cycle. And so the breaking of
it so intentionally and so gently is really cool. That's yeah,
and not the Segway. But that's another reason why they
ban certain books in prisons, right. They make sure that
they don't have access to these things so that they
(24:49):
can nurture their minds.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
You are listening to black Lit. I would love to
know which character was for each of you. And it
doesn't even have to be a person, because mine is
not a person. I gave Water its own character in
(25:18):
my mind because I was like, it was so pivotal
and it had such a like such a personality and
purpose and just everything about it that that was like
probably one thing that I really really really enjoyed about
the book, not the part that it you know, did
what it did to white people, but don't know what
to me so but I would love to know, like
(25:39):
what what parts are, what characters are, even just a
significant chapter that really resonated with you the most.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
I think for me, I think it was I think
it was Charlie. I think just his his path to life,
reclaiming his agency, pros, seeing like trauma, his patience, the
complex like path of reconciliation he had to go through.
(26:10):
For me, I think it was I would I would
desire and I would want to strive to have that
level of like patience and like forgiveness. And I think
just seeing his kind of his path all the way
to the end kind of I don't want, I don't
want to spoiler for anyone listening, but kind of seeing
(26:32):
his journey to me was was huge. I think reconciliation
definitely in my life, you know, personally, is one thing
that over the years I wanted to definitely work on with,
you know, people in my family, family members. So seeing
him kind of work through that with with Sydney was
huge to me stood out.
Speaker 7 (26:52):
Nice any others, I am just like three as a
unit of like seraph and Vivian Nona just I think
as as a as a woman who is still trying
to figure out how to how to woman. Sometimes, I
think the confidence and a presence in your body and
(27:13):
a willingness to exist in your power and also your
femininity and the capacity to extend that to someone else
without like it's not giving exactly. Like it was fascinating
watching Sydney and Nona's interaction and the way that Nonah
kind of almost kind of gently just kind of coaxes
(27:34):
even though Sydney is just like like through a lot
of that process, I think, I'm just just Seraphin's descriptions
and Saraphin's just existence and even the effect she can
have on Charlie of just this calm and this ancestral
understanding and this power of like this is what I am,
(27:55):
this is what I am capable of, and it just
isn't your being. And I think that's something that I
as a woman who wants to be able to just
exist in that confidence, because I think as a society,
women are not really taught to do that, and we
aren't taught to be smaller to give gift give, and
so I loved watching these three and even just all
(28:17):
the women in these environments of how they're like, no,
this is this is what I am worth, this is
who I am, This is how I exist, and you
shall rise to the occasion or I'm not going to
waste my energy, but in like the most loving, gentle,
inspiring way possible, which I just adore those and the
descriptions and the way that he paints the pictures in
(28:38):
the rooms and the spaces and the clothing and the textures,
just I'm.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Like, h it was so good. Yeah, I think I
love that little package again. Chapter twenty one. I keep
going back to that because that was the main chapter
when Sydney goes to known as room and she is
like just surrounded by that confidence of Nona and the
(29:04):
way he describes it. But that moment, to me was
so pivotal for her for the book because it gave
you so much insight into who this young who these
two young ladies are, and the ends of the spectrum
that they both were on, which was just like so
(29:25):
just completely different. But it allowed Sidney that just that
moment to be like to question her her why, like
question that little part in her that just wasn't confident
about who she was and it made her see how
she could be. And I thought that was beautiful, Shack.
(29:45):
I think you were going to say something.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
I was going to jump in and say, I think
one part that gets like, I won't say looked over,
but it's a very insignificant but in my eyes, very
significant part when he stops on the way to going
to get Sydney and he meets the elderly lady who
kind of pretty much like really confirms the path that
(30:07):
he's on and like gives him a piece of familiarity
that just kind of comforts him, could send dinner and
just kind of just supports and just tell him like, hey,
this is like this is my role right now, Like
this is where I'm at for people, for our people
in particular, this is where you don't want to go,
This is where you may want to go, you know,
wherever you choose to go, Like this is my path
(30:29):
along that and I'm confident and where I am. And
I feel like that just gave him so much reassurance
on that journey. And I feel like that was obviously
just him spending the night there, and it was one thing,
and I felt like that was just like a cool.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Adding in the story.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
And I love that piece and I love that character
even she only had like a small like a little
butter so.
Speaker 7 (30:50):
Like the rage that she could like the rage and
the deep power of her, and yet also the gentleness
and the quietness of her was so amazing, could be like,
holy crap did you do? But also come on and
just have some person. It's incredibly just the both.
Speaker 6 (31:07):
She was like all of our grandmothers.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
I don't know, my grandmother was not quiet.
Speaker 6 (31:18):
She has a quiet. She has a.
Speaker 7 (31:23):
Yeah, it's like an I'll murder you quiet, Like I
don't even like my grandma had.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
To look she was like, oh well yeah she had
that look.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
Well yeah, sometimes I got to say nothing.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
I just you know, you just know you feel nothing, Jordan,
does she want to add.
Speaker 6 (31:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
I mean, I think if it seemed for for me
as as you in terms of it not being actual person,
what I thought made the most impact on me in
terms of like character wise was definitely being set in Alabama.
But I think that before that is just the like
well roundedness of the women in the book. And see
what we talked about that on my book club of
just how many strong women he grew up with and
(32:03):
just making sure that that was reflected in the book.
And I think he did an excellent job. And if
he's paying homage to his own family and the own
women that he has surrounded himself with throughout his life,
he did them proud, I would say. But I think
just their journey, and maybe more so than Alabama, the
actual journey from the Midwest to Alabama was just so pivotal.
(32:24):
All this is there's so much that happens in the
airport and on the plane and then you know, then
them actually just like getting there and just the significance
at the South has for black people. You know, he
obviously talks about it being the birthplace of Marti Gras
and them having like the big set up, you know,
party as similar to Marti Gras that they have down there.
So I just think that setting they're really in my opinion,
(32:46):
couldn't be anywhere else where. It was going to be
where people are going to reconvene, specifically Black people, with
significance that that has for us in this country.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Can you see this as a series, I.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Think I think if it was turned into something for television, Netflix.
Speaker 6 (33:06):
Netflix is going to give.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Us episodes, so I always it's always it's going to
be a show. But I think if it was, like
I don't the only thing I could see is maybe
a little bit of like a prequel book that's actually
written after this, Like The Hate You Give has the prequel,
Like there's a lot of books, but like it has
the prequel, and Stephen Ruby King is the same, the
same kind of setup with the preofbel actually came out
(33:28):
after the initial story. I would be interested to know
a little bit more about like Elizabeth honestly, a little
bit of backstory of Sydney growing up.
Speaker 6 (33:38):
Actually, like like the first couple of days that Charlie's in.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Jail, like some of that story, But I don't necessarily
know like a series of what happens after this.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
See.
Speaker 4 (33:47):
I feel like there's so much in this book that
it could easily be like a short series like eight episodes.
I feel like you can easily go into like Charlie's
background with him and Elizabeth them being together in the
trial and going to like you can like show that
on screen, and that'd be like extremely powerful him being
(34:09):
in there that you fast forward and he's older and
he's twenty coming out. I feel like that could be
like episodes in itself, and then obviously like him traveling
over there and him and Sydney's journey and meeting the
pilot and then you get to Alabama. Like I feel
like they could drag that thing out for sure, and
like it could be not in a negative way.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
This book would be an eight series, eight part series,
and you would go in and out. I think if
he was to write something else, I would want a
frequel to this absolutely.
Speaker 7 (34:43):
I feel yeah, I feel like too, there would be
something at least for I think. I think Orange Beach
is a very weird and uncomfortable scenario, but I think
that as someone who is in an experience where there's
a lot of people where we're removing our heads from
(35:05):
our anuses about certain things, I think that Orange Beach
would also be an interesting one to kind of sit
on because the discomfort of that and the maintainance of
a reality and some of the points that the boys
make with how it's all still functioning and like the
(35:28):
way that it is the way that it is, and
like Agnes in particular, like there's just a lot and
I think that it would be also interesting if you
did a series, you could also look at the experiences
because he touches on the indigenous peoples as well. In
the story, he talks about, you know, all different expressions
and like, what would an Indigenous person actually feel will
be their narrative? All the people are all the white
(35:49):
people are dead, what would that be like? Or Asian
or Indian or Latino or.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Black like whatever that is.
Speaker 7 (36:00):
There are so many different experiences where it's like, I
imagine there is a suppression that exists among everybody, but
at the same time, like we said, it's not a monolith,
and so everybody would have their own reactions to it.
And that's where you get these stories like Malcolm, and
you get the stories like Orange Beach or they're like.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
What everage happening?
Speaker 6 (36:17):
I don't get.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
It and just this one.
Speaker 7 (36:20):
Instead of leaning into something new and leaning into something
beautiful and so much healthier, they're trying to hold onto something.
And I think a lot of people, especially now today,
are doing that, where they're just holding on to something
that they're comfortable with. And I think a series depending
you could switch the perspectives of different people and to
see what they went through and how they perceive this experience.
That could be cool, even bringing in different directors for
(36:42):
different episodes or something like that and be like, Okay,
this is from this point and this point and this point,
because it's so vast on like that. But I know
sitting on the event is not exactly the point sometimes,
so I guess it maybe depends on what you want
to see. Yeah, spread out in the story.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
I mean, I guess see it. I see it. I
could see all the controversy. I could see it being
canceled like Lovecraft Country. That's I don't want I'm not
even gonna speak that to this. I wanted to go
as long as it camp, but I was like one
of my favorite favorite favorite shows. But that show had
so much like just truth in it and so much
honesty and so many different like controversial topics and historic points.
(37:23):
And I think that's why it didn't get to season two.
But I heard that it wasn't actually supposed to have
a season two. I'm not sure, but shout out to
me Shagreen though, if you, if you get a season
two somewhere somehow, please do it. We are waiting and
maybe work with Cibo for a sky full of elephants
to bring this to life. It's a little secret though,
(37:44):
it is going to be made. Yeah, Laurence Fishburn bought
the rights to it.
Speaker 6 (37:51):
Oh when you were gonna eat this up?
Speaker 4 (37:53):
Oh?
Speaker 7 (37:53):
So many have to see.
Speaker 6 (37:58):
All that. I don't really go to theaters and stuff,
but if it's in theaters, I will go. No TV,
oh TV. They can feel comfortable right in their own homes.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Is going to be on the couch. Just like, how
do I feel about this?
Speaker 4 (38:14):
This is gonna be like a movie. Wouldn't do it?
It's not you. It's too much. It's too much. So yeah,
this is awesome.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Yeah that's what I said. I was like, what.
Speaker 4 (38:28):
Shout out to him and shout out to social media
because what.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Yeah, to not get any reviews and stuff to then
go to Lawrence like that's insane on.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Your debut novel. Yeah this is I mean, I'll told you,
but I was like, this is us.
Speaker 6 (38:45):
You know great, you have a player there.
Speaker 8 (38:49):
Yeah, I'm about to startcast, said, and we're about to
be producer.
Speaker 6 (38:56):
Honestly, I'll put them back in towards this right.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
I'm so excited for it. I really really, really truly
am and I just want to say thank you all
for joining this conversation. We're doing the work and celebrating literature.
Black Lit is a Black Effects original series in partnership
with iHeart Media. Is written and created by myself Jacquise
Thomas and executive produced alongside Dolly s. Bishop. Chanelle Collins
(39:24):
is the director of Production, Head of talent Nicole Spence,
writer producer Jason Torres, Our researcher and producer is Jabari Davis,
and the mix and sound design is by the humble
Duane Crawford. Gratitude is an action, so I have to
give praise to those who took the time out to
write a review. Please keep sharing and we will promise
(39:46):
to bring more writers and greater episodes to you. Special
thanks to everyone that you heard on this episode. La Gringa, Vianna,
Shaquil and Chase from The Booked and Busy book Club,
Jordan and Hernandez from Completely Booked, and of course ce
Bo Campbell
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