Collecting Cars and Dealing Art with Kenny Schachter

Artist, writer, lecturer and collector Kenny Schachter joins the podcast to talk about his life in art and cars. Plus, the electric Mercedes-Benz G Wagon stuns and converts Matt.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. I'm Matt Miller and
I'm Hannah Elliott, and this is Hot Pursuit.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
All right, Today we have an interview with an incredibly
fascinating artist, car collector, professor.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Collector, writer, lecturer. Yeah, Kenny Schachter. You might know him
from his book The NFT Book of twenty twenty three.
He's also got a regular column on art Net and
he actually is has a show right now at Jupiter
Gallery in New York called Art in the Age of
Robotic Reproduction. So he's got a lot going on. And

(00:51):
he is also a car guy.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, and he has a lot of cars as well.
And you know, he has more than a dozen really
cool classic cars he's had.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
He also mentioned his Honda, his nineteen ninety eight Integrat
that he's got, but also he's got he's owned major cars,
like very famously in nineteen seventy three. RSR also a
couple of concept cars by Zaha Hadid.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
That's very cool. So he basically came up with his
own idea and had someone design a car right and
then even tried to put it into production.

Speaker 1 (01:26):
That takes a lot of a lot of work. Yeah,
which I think he discovered.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
And but he's the kind of guy that like does
a lot of work.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
Right, Yeah, I know, he's very prolific.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
He's driven. So I'm so a great interview. I'm looking
forward to playing that.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
Oh you had something very you texted me, Matt, you
texted me, or no, you sent like an early morning
email that was basically I think the subject was for
the first time in my life, Yes, do you want
to discuss this?

Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yeah, so it's interesting. Well, for the first time in
my life. If you told me that I could buy
any brand new car and only have one car, right,
this is the classic question that people ask if you
could only have one car, what would it be? If
I were only allowed to choose from things that are

(02:19):
being produced and sold today, I would buy an electric vehicle?
What which is.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
This was shocking, shocking to me because we might have
even been accused of of being hard on electric vehicles.

Speaker 2 (02:33):
Well, I am very skeptical about electric vehicles, and I
think for good reason. And this is something we talk
about with Kenny, which I which was interesting. Yes, but yeah,
I also have I'm an older person, right, so I'm fifty.
I grew up with these gas powered cars. And I think,
you know, whatever generation you're born into, when you start

(02:56):
to realize that you're into interested in cars or you know,
art or anything like that, music, you tend to gravitate
towards that. So I gravitate towards you know, big gas
motors with a lot of power. I like naturally aspirated engines.
But I have also a specific use case. Right, If

(03:20):
I ask you, what's you know if you can only
have one car, your answer is going to be different
than mine.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
And I'm also going to say, well what am I
going to be doing with it?

Speaker 3 (03:29):
Right?

Speaker 1 (03:29):
Because it's all about the right tool for the job.
Cars are tools, for sure about.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
I think for each person. Also, there's going to be
a different tool that you need for if you could
only have one tool. Right, This is the yeah question.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
Life is different. Do you live in Montana? Do you
live in Manhattan?

Speaker 2 (03:44):
Right? You live in la You have Willow, you know,
You've got whatever you're doing exactly.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
It's not just about which car I think is the prettiest, exactly.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
So you know, I'm not going to choose if you
say you can only have one car. I love the Corvette,
but I'm not going to choose that because it only
has two seats and it's not really great for the passenger.

Speaker 1 (04:05):
Either children and.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yes, and so anyway, this Mercedes G five eighty, this
electric G Wagon, just absolutely blew my mind. And I
went into it incredibly skeptical because because I loved the
gas power G and I that was my one car,
you know, for a couple of years, and it ticked

(04:30):
every box. I needed it too when I lived in Berlin,
you know, when I was having my first kid, when
I had my dog. It was the perfect vehicle, and
I loved the engine. It was a you know, the
most recent G five hundred that I had was a
twenty twenty. It had the twin turbo four liter V
eight great burbally sound, you know, went quick. You don't

(04:55):
really need this huge top speed there, but I was
autobond driving, so it has to to go decently fast.

Speaker 1 (05:03):
Let's not forget everybody. I mean, the G Wagon sorry
to cut you off, is so popular that for like
eighteen months back a couple of years ago, they just
stopped taking orders because they were so far behind the production.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
Right.

Speaker 1 (05:17):
Well, it took me couldn't meet the demand.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
It took me almost two years to get mine after
I ordered it.

Speaker 1 (05:21):
There you go.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
Yeah, And of course I love the design because when
I was twelve years old, I saw one down the
street and I was just mesmerized by it. And of course,
you know, the g Wagon has unique characteristics. The door
closes in a different way than any other car. When
you lock or unlock it with the keyfob, it sounds

(05:43):
like you're racking shotgun shells into the barrel. So, you know,
there are things that I like about it that maybe
not everyone's gonna like about it. I like the very
upright driving position. I like the incredible accomplishment they've made
in terms of v right noise, vibration, and harshness. I
typically love these kind of yes truck slash cards they tack.

(06:07):
I like jeep wranglers. I like Ford Broncos, you know,
but the problem with those is they're so loud and
noisy and rattle cages. And this is like in it
feels like you're in a safe, like a bank.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
Vault bank vault. Yeah, completely is. So the whole point is,
don't change this beautiful, perfect thing that we love, Like, yeah,
don't change a thing, And they really haven't since nineteen
seventy nine pretty.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
Much pretty much. I mean, there was a twenty nineteen
they kind of I think, oh Man made some pretty
big change.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
They modernize it. And I will always remember that debut
in Detroit and that old decrepit theater that they turned
into it like a pyrotechnic display with and they got
Arnold Schwarzenegger there all right for the debut. It was
I will always remember that was a big deal because
the change was a big deal.

Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, And a lot of people prefer the older generation.
I prefer the newer generation because it drives better. And look,
I'm not buying this to take off road, you know.
I'm using it to commute back and forth in urban situations,
in suburban situations, to go shopping to Yeah, I'll take it,
you know, shooting, I'll take it hunting, but it's not

(07:20):
that's not the main purpose for me. And also it's
an incredibly expensive vehicle, Like I don't frankly think I
could afford it now that I have kids and live
in the very expensive place, but I could at the time.
And I wasn't about to like get it damaged by
you know, taking it to Moab, although that would have
been an incredibly far drive from Berlin.

Speaker 1 (07:41):
Yeah, all that to say.

Speaker 2 (07:43):
All that to say, I think this electric version is
actually better than, for the first time, the gas version
of this car, and I haven't thought that about any
you know. I've driven electric versions, for example, of the
BMW five series, and while while impressive, I don't think
it was as good as the gas version. I can't

(08:06):
think of any car that I've liked the electric version
better than the gas and I don't typically love you know,
I'm not a huge span of Tesla's, for example, but
this thing is so quick with the EV it's almost
six hundred horse power. I think it's five hundred and
seventy nine horse power. It has eight hundred and fifty
nine pound feet of torque, one hundred and sixteen kilowade

(08:30):
hour battery or that's the usable capacity of the battery,
so it has decent range. I was getting like three
hundred miles on a charge.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
That's standard industry standard.

Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, and it's just like for for this for some reason,
it works so much better for the g than it
does for other cars. For example, I didn't like the
Cadillac IQ the electric version better than the Cadillac with
the six point. Sorry, the escalade yet escalade yet I

(09:00):
think that my own personal opinion, the electric version is
too heavy and I would prefer to have the regular
GMV eight, especially if it were super charged. And and
I think compared to other cars like this, you know
SUVs for the it's the right car, it's the right
tool for me. Right now, I think this is better

(09:23):
than the range Rover. Now there's not an electric version
of the range Rover right there will be, but I've
driven the most recent range Rover, I've driven the most
recent Tahoe Yukon. To me, it's better than those and
better than the Aston Martin, and it's better than for
me the Lamborghini Urus. I tread lightly because I know

(09:45):
you love that.

Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah, I do. Well, it's I'm really really happy to
hear you say that. I'm very very surprised. And I
think Mercedes was able to pull off the magic trick
of not changing as much as possible about the G
and yet still making it electric, because that's a very

(10:08):
fine line to walk. Imagine Corsia trying to electrify the
nine to eleven. I mean, you're dealing with something that's
very iconic. Has It's like if it's not broke, don't
fix it. And so anytime you approach something like that
with an electric powertrain and everything that means. I think

(10:29):
they did a great job by trying to leave as
much as possible unchanged in the G Wagon, and I
feel like that's a big reason why it worked.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
I also think it's a great use case. You know,
for the nine to eleven, maybe you don't want the
electric drive train because it's a sports car, But for
for example, the G Wagon, I've always thought the G
sixty three was kind of stupid, like what, yeah, because
what it's a just look, it's a big head brick, right,

(11:01):
it's the least aerodynamic thing. It's not so fast, it
doesn't handle, it doesn't handle like fast.

Speaker 1 (11:07):
It's powerful and you can just crush everything. I just
felt supposed to be a sports.

Speaker 2 (11:12):
The regular twin turbo V eight was sufficient.

Speaker 1 (11:15):
That is That's the first time I've ever heard you
say something that wasn't the most powerful was enough. You're
that is so not you don't want I never.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
But I just think for for this, for this, for
this house, it's a moving house, right, what.

Speaker 1 (11:28):
You're saying moderation is just fine for you it's.

Speaker 2 (11:30):
Just it just felt like that was overkill. And you know,
I can't remember the price differential, but it's like adding
at the time I bought mine an extra forty thousand
dollars on an already fairly unaffordable vehicle, it just seemed silly.
And so but for me, the electric powertrain is that
is perfect for this big moving brick.

Speaker 1 (11:52):
Yes, and I will I will take the opportunity to
to brag a little bit and say that I was
the first American journalist to drive this vehicle in twenty
twenty three. And the reason why I bring that up
is because I drove it in Austria off road on
extremely steep dirt and rock and shale and gravel, and

(12:14):
it was incredible. And I'm talking like inclines of forty
percent incline and it was great. I mean, the only
thing that I can think about it being an issue
is where you're going to plug in your g wagon
out in the middle of nowhere.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
Okay, okay, out in the middle of nowhere. That's a
good point, true.

Speaker 1 (12:34):
That's the one thing. But I remember in Austria talking
about how and this is very European, but you know,
of course, Mercedes is like, there's a use case here
for people who do use the g wagon's off road,
either for hunting or for photography, or for simply not
wanting to disturb animals. And this sounds so funny, but

(12:57):
I literally remember driving past rabbits in the forest in
Austria and they they it didn't disturb them, and that
was really cool. And I obviously it's a very obscure
use case for it, but there is a legitimate use
case for that too, So that was very cool to see,
right in sense.

Speaker 2 (13:16):
I also thought about, you know, my experience with charging
hasn't been good, but I haven't been charging at home,
and so for example, with the Escalade, I had to
go find a place. It took over an hour to charge.
It costs one hundred and eleven bucks for that. I
think it was fifty five minutes. Actually it's a little

(13:36):
less than an hour, And you know, that kind of
left a bad taste in my mouth. But of course,
if you buy one of these vehicles, and as EV
owners can attest to, you're gonna install a level two
charger in your garage. And the truth is, I'm not
often driving more than three hundred miles not even often
driving more than one hundred, one hundred and fifty miles

(13:58):
in a day, even if I go hunting, you know,
which for me is an hour away up in Millbrook.
I just don't need enough range to have to charge
and then you get home, plug it in your garage,
when you wake up in the morning, it's fully charged again.

Speaker 1 (14:16):
Completely. So there's something Yeah, sorry.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
Go ahead, No, I'm just you know, of course you
take longer trips, and for most people you don't only
have or for people listening to this podcast, unlikely that
they only have one car. But even if you did
only have this car to take a long trip, I
don't think it's that bad. If I drive to Ohio,
which is where you know I typically drive because I'm
from the great state of Ohio, the most fantastic place

(14:40):
in America. You know, I would have to charge probably
twice like Max, and it wouldn't be the worst. Yeah,
So I don't think that that's really a terrible argument
against it. I will say that this so we had
an email from someone who asked me to compare it
to other cars, which is why I said, I like
it better than all of those other Tahoe Yukon escalid
range over Lamberge, asked Martin. I will say that I

(15:02):
haven't driven every car, right, I haven't driven, for example,
a Portie Kayen since twenty nineteen.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
Neither to be honest.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah, well didn't you You guys just drove one.

Speaker 1 (15:12):
To Colorado that was That was a Macon.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
Oh all right, Well, I remember in twenty nineteen being
blown away by the new generation Cayenne, and I imagine
it is still an amazing vehicle.

Speaker 1 (15:25):
Yeah, it's not. I don't think they've changed it still,
but I don't.

Speaker 2 (15:27):
Think it's as unique in America x LA as a
G Wagon, right, because even in New York it's pretty
unique the g Wagon eight, Yeah, you think, And it's
a different feel than the Cayenne that I remember. Although
the Kayan is an amazing vehicle, I will also say
that I loved the I did drive the OUDI SQ

(15:48):
eight and I loved it, really liked it a lot.

Speaker 1 (15:51):
What did you like about that?

Speaker 2 (15:53):
For me? The SQ eight? You know where the where
the G Wagon is like an upright box, you know
that put too high and you know, makes you feel
like you're doing something adventurous, even if you're commuting or
going to shop. Right, the Audi SQ eight was more sleek.
It was more of a sports car feel in an suv.

(16:17):
I liked the center stack, I loved the engine obviously.
I love the design of the Q eight in general.
I think Audi knocked it out of the park with
that when they first put it out ten years ago,
and it still looks perfect. But yeah, I think if
I had to choose any car, it would be this.
And again that has to do with my use case,

(16:38):
it has to do with my history. But I think
the main headline is the the EV powertrain works for
me better in this than the gas powertrain did.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
Wow, that's amazing. And I think the price on this
was what one?

Speaker 2 (16:53):
No, it's way more. No, Yeah, the G five to eighty,
I think it's one sixty seven.

Speaker 1 (16:58):
Well, it's not way more, Okay, it's mid I.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
Think for most people unaffordable. Right, it is very expensive.
It's forty grand more than it was when I bought
it in twenty twenty. The gas version, Yeah, and I'm
going up. It's just like it's beyond my reach. I'll
say that as anything more than a test vehicle.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
But honestly, I totally agree with you for those who
can afford it. It's such, it's great. It's really, really
really good. I really I liked it then I like
it now, As.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
Faris Bueller says, if you have the means, I highly
recommend kicking one.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
Up great and I should say too. Look, this show
is not meant to be a car review show. We
have lots of car reviews online on Bloomberg dot com
written by wah and I really encourage you to read
the actual review of these vehicles. This is banter. This
is our colloquial conversation of it. So please dive into.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yes, go read Handed's reviews. She reviewed this when she
was the first American journalist to drive it in the
Shekel proving grounds.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
I mean, I'm not I'm not a bragger, but I
am going to lay down that street cred because I
was really excited to drive it, because I, like you,
was very skeptical and I went in thinking this is
just gonna be like holding my nose, thinking that there's
no way this can be good.

Speaker 2 (18:25):
By the way, I was skeptical of your review for
the last two years. Right, you came back and you
were like, it's amazing, It's perfect. Yes, And I she.

Speaker 1 (18:33):
Has no idea what she's talking about.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
Well, I was like, yeah, you were in Austria in
the mountains with the CEO of Mercedes.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
So yeah, that Oh my gosh, Matt, that just made
my day And that makes me so happy. That makes
me because I look, I'm not going to force my
opinions down to any on anybody. It's it's it take
it or leave it.

Speaker 3 (18:55):
You know.

Speaker 1 (18:56):
But it's really nice to hear that. You can see
what I was saying.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
Okay, I just want to so a little correction. The
base price is one sixty one five Okay, all right, okay,
you know that's bass. So as soon as you start
to add, the one I have and I'll post it
on Instagram is the signature Midnight Blue that has seven
thousand dollars already.

Speaker 1 (19:18):
Oh I bet that was so good.

Speaker 2 (19:19):
Look it's beautiful, it's perfect. It's like as understated as
a g Wagon can be, you know, because it's not
a shiny material.

Speaker 1 (19:27):
No. I certainly have people in my life who will
go unnamed, but multiple people who really like make fun
of my appreciation for the g Wagon and also as
evidence that somehow it's not a valid vehicle. They point
to some people who.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
Drive it, the Kardashians.

Speaker 1 (19:47):
Well, and by the way, I'm not naming names. I
mean I'm a big Kardashian fan. For the record, I
find them fascinating and a cultural study. But that's a
different discussion. But you can't blame a car on who
drives if the car is great. The car is great,
I know.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
But and we should do an episode on, you know,
the people who stereotypically drive cars, because in Berlin also
it was seen immediately as like a drug dealer's car,
a mafia car.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
And I wanted to do something about that with Maserati's
in the UK, because there's a certain contingent who drives
a Masarati and I would love to do that story,
but I don't know if I can get away with it.
You know, it's it's a minefield, true, It's just a minefield.

Speaker 2 (20:30):
It's an hr issue probably and maybe a classist thing
as well. Terrible in any way. In any case, let's
get to by the way, speaking of the UK, because
he spent a lot of time there speaking of banter,
because he did a lot of that with us.

Speaker 1 (20:45):
Oh that's fascinating, guest.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
Let's get to Kenny shafter Kenny.

Speaker 1 (20:49):
It's so nice to have you here. Thanks for coming
coming down a bit. Although I think you kind of
live in midtown.

Speaker 3 (20:54):
Right, I live four blocks await you both welcome to
come and visit. I live, thank you, literally four blocks
away from here.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
That's excellent.

Speaker 3 (21:01):
I didn't even have an excuse to drive, that's for sure.

Speaker 2 (21:05):
Four blocks. I will tell you something. When I lived
in Berlin, I lived on Dora Teestrasa, which my house
was I think less than four blocks away from our office,
and yet I would ride my motorcycle to the office
almost every day just because I need to hear the
sound and you know.

Speaker 1 (21:22):
The ritual. Yeah, it's your thing.

Speaker 3 (21:24):
I figured you were a hardcore motorcycle person. It is
true from seeing some of your reportage in the past.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
It is true. But I love cars. Also, what about you?
What are your big interests? Where does it center?

Speaker 3 (21:39):
Well, there's note. I have a multitude of different things
that I'm I'm obsessed with, ranging from I mean, I
don't mean to kiss up to you guys, but Bloomberg
is among.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
Let's discuss this, okay, So what do you mean when
you say that.

Speaker 2 (21:54):
You watch TV?

Speaker 1 (21:56):
This is a rarity this is a rarity, okay.

Speaker 3 (21:58):
So first I could just say I'm an artist, I'm
a professor, teacher sounds less pretentious, and an investigative journalist
for the art world about the machinations of the art market.
And we will get into cars in a second, but
cars will my gateway drug to art. But as a
journalist and ask someone who's contemporary art is a reflection

(22:23):
of the social, political, economic and technological times we live in.
And for me reading the news newspapers, I'm fanatical about newspapers.
I lived in the UK for fifteen years and there's
ten daily newspapers and they have magazine supplements, all of
them on both Saturday and Sunday. But black to I mean,

(22:46):
I get the chills coming in here and walking through
this building. And as far as I'm concerned, I'll start
with the beginning. The first thing you see when you
go through the revolving door is art. So the combination
of all loved my passion sort of converge right here.
All that's missing was a car or six in the

(23:07):
art saturated lobby. And someone said, you guys, Someone said,
you guys have great snacks, but it's more like meals.
But seriously, if you had like a couple of great
classic cars interspersed throughout the art, that could be a
pre When I was being ushered into this room, the
woman said, who was kind enough to come and fetch me?

(23:30):
I was looking at this sculpture and she said, Oh,
I don't know what that is. I've been thinking about
this for so long. Is it to deaden the sound?
And I'm like, I told you that it's a sculpture.
And then she said, you're sure it's not serving some
purpose for acoustics, and I'm like, no, no, no, you're
not listening. It's art. Art doesn't have a purpose. But
for me, back to Bloomberg, I love the news because

(23:52):
for me, I get inspired by the news for my
writing and my teaching and my art making. So I'm
actually writing about Bloomberg in my latest article, which is
on artnet. And if you want to watch the news today,
the only objective context within which to see anything that's

(24:13):
going on in the world is on Bloomberg. Every I
remember twenty five years ago, I'm significantly older than the
both of you, when you were able to watch the
news and remarkably see the news, not someone's opinion about
current events, and you go to CNN, BBC, MSNBC, Fox,

(24:35):
they all have positions that are established before they even
start reporting, and that to me is not the news.
That's an agenda. And if anything, we live in a
I mean, I don't even believe there's communism anymore. Pretty
much everyone is capitalist and if anything is going to
affect the world, you'll see the first hiccup in the

(24:58):
markets and the only And so by watching Bloomberg, you
get to take the temperature of what's happening, not just
in the markets, but in the world. So for me,
literally again, I'm I'm not looking. I'm not submitting my
resume for a job, although I would certainly at least
take an internship for a week or two. But sometimes

(25:19):
I even sleep with Bloomberg gone.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
Well right here, you know, So you could ask by
the way, I agree, and I think about this a
lot in that I don't know if we don't have
an opinion in terms of you know, the anchors, the reporters,
the broadcasters, but money doesn't have an opinion, right, Financial
markets don't have a political view. So through that lens,

(25:43):
you can really see an unbiased take on what's happening.
I want to center in on the art thing though,
because I have never paid enough attention to the art
that we have here. So for people who haven't been
to seven thirty one Lexington Avenue, when you come in,
there's a row of wooden sculptures that to me look
like cocoons. I don't know what they are. And then

(26:04):
when you come up, before you get on our circular escalator,
which is the only I have heard curved escalator in
the Western hemisphere, you see this massive sculpture of what
I believe is a thundercloud.

Speaker 1 (26:18):
It's like hammered from the sixties.

Speaker 2 (26:19):
It looks like so cool. And then you've got these
lights that I always tell people that's Mike's DNA, but
I don't know what it really is. So what do
you think about the artwork that we have?

Speaker 3 (26:29):
I mean, look, when you see a car, most people
who like classic cars respond to cars they first took
note of when they were a kid twelve thirteen, fourteen,
and it moves you. You have an emotional response. So
you just mentioned something about these wooden sculptures. I don't

(26:51):
I didn't have a chance to glance. I asked the
I actually asked the reception person who made them, and
he mentioned there was a label. I did know the
artist who's from Africa, Ellen Suey, who did this giant
bottle cap tapestry from found objects on the streets of
I believe, Nigeria. And your first impression about what this

(27:16):
cloud sculpture was was amazing because that's quite accurate in
terms of the intent of the artist. But the beauty
of art is that it's your sense of what you
respond to, how you respond to it, you bring something.
I mean, I think the great thing about art is
the ambiguity and the viewer finishes the equation. Art can't

(27:39):
exist in a vacuum, so it's self expression, but it's
a means of communication, like through my art and my
love of cars. I'm sitting here talking to both of
you and it's extraordinary for me because, like I said,
I'm a fan of Hannah. I've watched your reporting for
quite a long time, both of you, and I'm really

(28:00):
appreciative and love it. So, yeah, it's a convergence of
all the things I like. So for me, art was
a way to Yeah, it gives me solace and it
gives me. It imbused my life with meaning. It gives
me purpose. I love to communicate and I love to
help people and facilitate opportunities for other artists.

Speaker 1 (28:20):
Kenny, I'm very surprised you said that cars were my
gateway drug to art. I would have thought it was
the other way around. Actually, well about that a therapy session. Yeah,
that is really backwards from what I would have guessed.

Speaker 3 (28:35):
Well, I don't want to get too deep into.

Speaker 1 (28:38):
The home, weet, we could go there.

Speaker 3 (28:40):
Do you have a couch you can lay down? So
I grew up only seventeen miles from where I'm sitting.

Speaker 1 (28:46):
To island, right, Yes, but it.

Speaker 3 (28:48):
Could have been seventeen light years away because I was
in the suburbs and it was kind of generic. There
was no I didn't know what an art gallery was
until I was well into my twenty and my mother
passed away when I was young, and my father wasn't
terribly supportive, to be kind, and I sort of was

(29:09):
a recluse, And I created this universe for myself to
entertain myself. And it was through magazines from like National Geographic.
That was a gift to me, like it often is
for young kids to rode in track and car magazines
and first and foremost, I was never athletic. I mean,
the reason I never shut up now is I stuttered,

(29:31):
so I had a speech impediment for a good long time.
And cars, it's the industrial design of cars. I'm terrible
at sports. I don't watch F one or any other football, soccer, baseball,
but I love the design of cars, and for me
in this my sweet spot because of my age, I

(29:53):
guess and when I grew up. Cars from I mean
the seventies are the great unsung decade because I think
there's one full designs from then. But I love cars
from the seventies and eighties up to the nineties, when
there was more kind of consideration, less homogination of the
design and the way things were. And yeah, I have

(30:17):
a very non hierarchical approach to art cars esthetics, and
I think anything done with passion, like the design of
a great car from that period or any period. There's
still great cars being made, just significantly less of them.
But I think I don't differentiate from something that's done
well extraordinarily with this kind of deep seated passion, And

(30:42):
on that basis alone, I don't differentiate between a Picasso,
a chair or a spoon or a car. I used
to live with three cars in my office, including one
under my desk, which, oh god, I've had. I've had
too many to mension. But I love Lancia Lancia. Can
I have a long Island accent? Lancha, You'll have to

(31:03):
part in my accent. I love I have a nineteen
seventy Lancia Fovia fanelone I have. I mean, I have
a garage. The reason I rented and then later was
able to buy the place I live in was that
it had a garage. I mean it was decrepit, it
had mold, but it had a garage. Most significantly, lots

(31:25):
of wall space and light, all the significant things that
moved me so, which is.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
By the way, no small feet in New York. I mean,
finding a place with a garage around here is difficult,
even if you live in the suburbs. It's just there
isn't a lot of space.

Speaker 3 (31:39):
No, what scares me a little bit to get all
over the place. But I have three kids, and when
I think about the relationship of kids both to art
and to cars, is a little worrisome to me because
I find that kids are looking for other experiences today

(32:00):
when it comes to cars. They just get get a
car service. I don't want to drop the names of
any of those horrific companies by that.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
Seven what's that dial? Seven? Yeah, that's my favorite.

Speaker 3 (32:12):
Seven seven seven seven seven. But anyway, So for me,
when I was a kid, especially in the suburbs of
Long Island, isolated, alienated, a car was this symbol of
getting away, primarily from my family, from home, independence, hitting
the road and exploring. And it had this and through culture,

(32:33):
through film, through books, it had this incredible kind of
aura to the notion of jumping and getting your license.
I used to I lied to my parents for a
year that I had a permit permitted you to drive alone,
rolling the station wagon out of the driveway, to go
to nightclubs when I was sixteen, all of that stuff.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
It just do you really think that kids? I heard
today Constellation Brands had earnings and earns report they're a
liquor and out callmaker, and they said that gen Z
isn't as interested in alcohol, and I thought, that isn't
really true.

Speaker 1 (33:06):
For sure, that's true, And I'll tell you a stat
there was more alcohol sold in one day at Stage
Coach than there was in the entire Coachella two weekends,
and we know the age difference of the people going
to stage coach Also, I can tell you my DJ
friends are complaining that they're not making the bar their
bar tab sales at the club because no one's drinking, and.

Speaker 2 (33:27):
Well, they're gonna need alcohol sooner or later, right, I said,
I have three children.

Speaker 3 (33:33):
Maybe my kids are an anomaly, I can say, but
they seem to have quite a nice relationship with booths.

Speaker 2 (33:40):
So I wonder if one day they'll like be interested
in cars as well, because they must want some sort
of freedom. Okay, they're city kids, right.

Speaker 3 (33:48):
Well we I mean we lived in London, and London
is one of the most extraordinary core cultures. It's amazing.
Like in art, there are certain cultures that have a
kind of uh a deep seated appreciation and and relationship
to art, like Switzerland, Germany, America is humongous, China has

(34:12):
been emerging, Korea is fantastic. And at the same time,
like if you buy a classic car in certain jurisdictions,
like say Italy, it's more usual than not that you're
gonna get zero history. For me, a car like a
piece of art, the provenance, the depth of the documentation

(34:33):
that that is associated with this vehicle tells the story.
It's telling you a narrative story that for me, I
treasure those documents.

Speaker 1 (34:44):
Do you approach collecting cars the same way that you
approach collecting art? Is that the same comparison or wildly different?

Speaker 2 (34:50):
Does it matter who owned a painting or a sculpture
or are you kidding?

Speaker 3 (34:53):
That's that's that's the value of the owner. Like when
you're an emerging artist, I'm old, but I make art
and I haven't because I've done so many disparate things,
from selling art to curating art. I never, like I said,
I never took an R class in my life until
I was teaching one. I'm completely self taught, and I've
written books on it for MIT, and I've taught at

(35:16):
Harvard and Yale and Columbia and teach now at the
University of Zurich. But when you're nuts abouts it's an obsession.
It's almost like a disease. So, I mean, I had
a bad experience with the classic car where I don't
really know if I can handle the dealing with that
issue right now.

Speaker 1 (35:34):
You don't want to bring it up in nineteen seventy three,
must too. No, we don't, we don't have to.

Speaker 3 (35:40):
It took me five years to get over this, this
this situation. But I always say with the collector having
no money is no impediment to buying something. And you
could tell a hardcore, serious collector of something when they'll
find a way. So right now I'm looking at nineteen
ninety three Porsche nine sixty what is it? A nine

(36:05):
to sixty eight club sport which I like kind of
raw hom alligation cars that were made for some racing,
mostly rallies or some racing series. And by statute you
have to ham aligate five hundred cars into regular production,
often at a loss for the manufacturer to qualify for
certain race series. And I like cars at a different

(36:27):
unique and have a kind of rawness to them that
are unusual and really you get a visceral. I mean,
there are certain cars where you can you can feel
a cigarette butt on the street in your butt when
you're driving it. Princess and the pee, yeah exactly, which
I love. I want that pee to be in my tuckest.
But like for me, collecting is collecting and again like

(36:49):
I once you get like I was looking at car
sites like bring a trailer in the lobby waiting to
be picked up. And the first websites I look at
every morning. I have Bloomberg on the on the computer
running the live broadcast, watching you and I give you
a bunch. And then I'm looking at art net, where
I write it's like there's a Classic driver which they

(37:11):
just did a piece on this Japanese market. Uh, Integra
type R that I have and uh. And then I
look at piston Heads, which is which is a great
British site, this sports car market, and there's octane. They're
just for me. I don't differ again, It's this kind
of very democratic, non exclusionary way of approaching everything. I

(37:35):
treat everyone with respect and dignity. Forthright. My articles are
a bit provocative, get me into quite a bit of
trouble because I have an opinion and I try to
tell the truth as much as I can, and people
can't really tolerate that.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
Speaking of oh wow, that's so financial celebrities looks.

Speaker 3 (37:56):
See, this is how I judge a good piece of
art or a good experience. The hair stands up on
my arm like a child and up my back. I mean,
it's you.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
I wanted to ask you about that, you know, writing
writing about the art world, and you know, writing things
that make people uncomfortable. And I know I've I of
course have read your column and read interviews with you,
and I think one time you describe the art world
as a mafia and as rather mean spirited at times,

(38:29):
and I was curious how you find the car world
and as you move through the car world, speaking truth,
how is your experience comparing to moving through the art world.

Speaker 3 (38:45):
That's amazing question. I've written for Ferrari magazine and for
Classic Porsche magazine in the past, and I find, Yeah,
I never said I'm not a mean person, and I'm
deeply committed about my field, and I don't want to
I don't want to cause any anguish to anyone. But look,

(39:06):
the art world is let's say, it went from being
the high of a year with sixty eight billion now
it's around. It's had a bit of a it's kind
of like the Japanese economy. It's been in a bit
of a systematic downturn. And the car market, I mean
for the car market for new vehicles is like two
and a half trillion dollars, but for classic cars it's

(39:27):
about half The art market about thirty billion. So again
back to economics, which again I never studied, but I'm
a great fan and student of. There is a zero
sum mentality when the like a technology company makes the
amount of money that the art market or the car
market makes in a year at lunchtime, and because the

(39:51):
opportunities a much slimmer and more fought after, tooth and nail,
one person's gain is that the calculable, measurable loss of
somebody else who's wants the same thing. So everyone, if
you ask anyone on the street three questions like what

(40:13):
do you think is the most dishonest rife with corruption field?
Art and cars would probably be among the top two
anregulated but I don't even think you know, there's a
great financial writer for the Ft, which Bloomberg and the
Ft are my two favorite vehicles.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
I also love the ft.

Speaker 1 (40:34):
Will allow it, We will allow it.

Speaker 3 (40:35):
Their arts coverage is fabulous, It's extraordinary on the weekend,
it's amazing. And yeah, so I think, wait, what was
the question?

Speaker 1 (40:45):
The question was, you know if the art world, Oh yeah, sorry, yeah,
how does art world compare to the things world? As
you sort of infiltrate and say things that make people
uncomfortable and maybe expose some of the things that are
not that are held in the shadows.

Speaker 3 (41:01):
Well, like I had back, I think that the only
thing worse than art and cars combined would be crypto.
That's really the last bastion of a state of nature
where anything goes. It's it's veiled in anonymity and there's
a lot of room. But like it's back to cars.
Like for any financial transaction, there was a great study

(41:23):
by Georgina Adam who writes for the used to write
for the Ft, still does a bit. And there's one
hundred and sixty five laws that are applied to any
commercial transaction like buying a painting or buying a car.
There has uniform commercial codes and various statutes that are
applicable in terms of comers and doing a transaction. You

(41:44):
have can't be fraud, they can't be misrepresentation, and all
of these basic tenets of commercial laws. So it's a misconception.
It's a misconception that cars and motorcycles are for boys
and technology is for guys more than women. I mean,
I have always made an effort, got concerted effort, for

(42:05):
decades to work with people. I'm a human being, and
I want to have a cross section of people in
the projects that I foster. I bought bought in soul
cars from women and people from all stripes and all
and all places. So I just think that, look, the
problem AI is not going to destroy civilization. People. The

(42:30):
car industry is not any more dishonest or the art
business than any other field. The problem is people. People
are going to screwing things up. There are certain leaders
in the world right now, there are certain wars like
in the Middle East and in Ukraine and now Indian Pakistan.
It's super alarming situations.

Speaker 2 (42:50):
Hope that doesn't kick off.

Speaker 3 (42:52):
I mean, it seems that we're in the first round
defensive posture.

Speaker 1 (42:57):
Now.

Speaker 2 (42:57):
I'm hoping it doesn't.

Speaker 3 (42:58):
No, I pray it doesn't, because we can't four two
nuclear arm countries facing conflagration. But I just think people
need to have more respect for each other, a little
more kindness and generosity of spirit. And there's a Bell's
curve of morality, and I think it's just innate to people,

(43:18):
to human beings, to be dishonest when there's money on
the people.

Speaker 2 (43:25):
So all right, I want to talk about it's interesting
to me. Then I think of your three main interests
as financial news and economics, art and automotive, But the
latter two in a sense are the same, right. I mean,
if I look at a GTO, that's to me a
work of art worth just as much, if not more

(43:48):
than you know the irises. But the difference is you
can drive the gto right, and so it's not just
about looking at it from all different angles. Operating it
is a thing that you can't do with most artworks. Right,
So how do you feel about actually driving these cars?

Speaker 3 (44:08):
Okay? I have a response surprising enough? How do you
store one hundred and fifty cars very expensively? It is?

Speaker 2 (44:17):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (44:17):
How do you store one hundred and fifty paintings in
a freeport? In a warehouse? They call them freeports? Course,
they're like autonomous city states.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
Oh I saw Tenant?

Speaker 3 (44:26):
America has one, Switzerland as many, Singapore has some.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
Did you see Christopher Nolan's Tenant?

Speaker 1 (44:32):
No?

Speaker 2 (44:33):
Oh okay, Well they have freeports there. That's where kind
of some of the action happens in that movie.

Speaker 3 (44:37):
A lot a lot of I would say, the owner
of this network has a freeport with a locust. When
you collect RD you can't there's no threshold to being finished.
You're never finished. Although Ralph Lauren was asked, what's the
next car you're going to add to his illustrious car collection,
and he said, I have them all, But that strikes me.

Speaker 2 (44:56):
People don't. But what you can, I guess you don't
think cars at the free right.

Speaker 3 (45:00):
Oh, they'll keep anything out of freeport.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
You just have to have space, a.

Speaker 3 (45:04):
Lot of space and a lot of money. So I
think in the art world they always bandy this term
around late capitalism, and I was like, I don't know
what that means. And then I was thinking, one day
people buy cars they don't drive. Aren't they keeping storage
wine they don't drink, jewelry they don't wear, and houses
they don't live in, And to me that smacks of

(45:24):
late what late capitalism would be.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
But surely you must do the same. I mean, you
just can't drive so many cars. And there's some vehicles
that you must want to look at and smell and see,
but maybe you can't experience driving it that much. Maybe
like a kuntash, you know, it's just not as much
fun to drive as it is to look.

Speaker 3 (45:47):
Keep going backwards in that car, you have to hang
out of the car. Yeah, it's going reverse is the challenge,
but yeah, it's one hundred percent true. You only have
one butt to stick on a car seat, and you
only have so much waalth space and one set of
eyes to look at your art. And I agree. I mean,
I want to move to Switzerland, where I'm where I'm

(46:09):
teaching and spend I love to spend time there. And
I was in the Engadine, which is this region of
the mountains, so I was there for two months. I'm
dying to find a way. And why do I want
to live there? Because I'm such a New York City
is coursing through my circulatory system. I love the energy,

(46:30):
the aggression, all of it, and the congestion of extraordinary
people and art and culture and everything.

Speaker 2 (46:40):
I like to drive, and especially in the.

Speaker 3 (46:44):
On the only exercise that I could tolerate. I'd never
been to a gym, thank god. I don't like jog
because I can't run because forget it, too much wear
and tear. And swimming, so I could find places to
swim in various like public pools that are all over

(47:05):
in every little town. And I love to drive, so
I literally want why do I want to move there.
Besides the fact, in this Engadine region there's thirty plus
galleries in the fifteen kilometer range and five museums all
within fifteen kilometers of Ponchasina, the town that I just
spent time in. But that's pretty much where I want

(47:25):
to gear up to spend the rest of my life
and then come back here and dip in.

Speaker 2 (47:29):
You can teach art at the Litsam Alpinam, which is
a boarding school in Suats. It's about twenty kilometers outside
of Saint Laura.

Speaker 3 (47:40):
Very well.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
Yeah, and great roads to drive on, art sculptures all
over the place.

Speaker 3 (47:45):
Amazing. Yeah, do you know anyone there?

Speaker 2 (47:48):
I know a lot of people there.

Speaker 3 (47:49):
Yeah, I'm Dawn. Maybe I wanted to know.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
How do you know people there? You want to give
us some insight?

Speaker 2 (47:53):
Well, a lot of people in my family went to Suats.

Speaker 3 (47:56):
It's amazing.

Speaker 2 (47:57):
And one of my best friends I grew up, Rhdi Grigory,
his family is from sue Us.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
Yeah, so I did not know his family is.

Speaker 3 (48:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
So I go there a lot and.

Speaker 3 (48:08):
They have great they have great car car show. They
have this amazing thing in sam Maurritz on the lake
Frozen Lake and they drive some of the most extraordinary.
I saw them craning in in old two seventy five
Ferrari into a hotel in Samritz and they have like
driving on ice. But it's back to the schools I met.

(48:28):
I befriended this Iraqi architect who's one of the most
profound human beings I've ever met in my life. Saha Hadid.
One of the things that really moved me was that
she did a factory in Leipzig for BMW. What she
did was so extraordinary and I don't think it's ever
been equalled. The conveyor belt goes through the executive offices

(48:50):
and the cafeteria of the factory. So I like to
sort of like you know, in this building in Bloomberg,
everything is c three.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
Transparency is important when you're dealing with financial markets one
hundreds of paramount.

Speaker 3 (49:06):
So I did I bring transparency to the art market,
and people freak out because one of the things that
draws people to crypto and to art is the secrecy
and the veil of like opaqueness.

Speaker 1 (49:17):
Didn't Zaha make some concept cars for you, Kenny, so
I tell us about those.

Speaker 3 (49:22):
You don't have to wind me up much to spew on. Sorry,
I want to hear more about you too. It's way
more interesting than.

Speaker 1 (49:30):
We get to ask you all the I've got I've
got along list.

Speaker 3 (49:33):
So I was in awe of this this woman, and
I'm not an architecture fan, but again, I love industrial design.
She designed this factory, She did the swimming stadium for
the Olympics in the UK, and I became super close
with her just because I was in awe of her
mental prowess. People would run across the street to say

(49:54):
how she inspired them to follow various pursuits in their
life that they felt uncomfortable with. So I started working
with her firm. I was interested in maybe doing a
small building project with her, but I could barely function
in my own business. I'm the worst business person. She
passed away. Women didn't have to work twice as hard
in that field. She worked five times as hard. She

(50:16):
worked herself to death. But I had asked her only
partner who's taken over the business, to design a car
for me because I'm so fanatical. I never told her
because I was scared of her. She has this notorious personality.
So I got her firm to design a prototype vehicle,
which was three wheels and it would drive upright in
the city and on acceleration it would recline for better aerodynamics.

(50:40):
And it was hydrogen based and we made a one
to one scale model. And as they say in the UK,
I blagged my way into getting a free berth like
in a car show in Excel in London, and the
architecture practice made me a whole booth and a stand.
It was so cool. So I ended up getting reviewed
an Orto car by Richard Bremner, who's a brilliant writer

(51:03):
Great Magazine. And then I got a teaching gig at
the Royal Academy of Art in the Vehicle design department,
among the best. So I gave one lecture and it
was wonderful. The kids really loved it and I was
so engaged. It was so exciting. Then I did a
joint lecture with Frank Stevenson who was designing for Ferrari
and Maserati, and then I tried to produce the car.

Speaker 1 (51:28):
To sell.

Speaker 3 (51:29):
Yeah, but they say the fate. I know Gauntlet is
the surname. I know the son Richard Gauntlett, but his
dad famously Victor Gauntlet. He was owned Aston Martin and
he said, you want to make a small fortune in car,
start out with the big one. And I spent two
years researching. I went to puk in Austria, various kit
car manufacturers to make a chassis, and I just thought,

(51:51):
I can't even like, I can't even do my own job.
How am I going to do that anyway? So like
then Zaha cornered me in the parking lot and started
screaming at me, how could you engage my partner without
telling me? And then we became the best of friends.
But I also the second time we did a four
wheel version, because I was trying to produce it. And
then I went to the back to the Royal College

(52:13):
and they were ripping me apart. They were like, this
looks like every prototype we've ever seen. There's nothing but
it stands up. Yeah, and it could possibly be sold,
and they just and then the fire alarm went off
and I was like, thank God, goodbye, see you later.
I just ran by the belt.

Speaker 2 (52:30):
I would be remiss if I didn't mention the transparent factory,
because we're talking about industrial design and the transparency of Bloomberg.
Folkswagen has this transparent factory in Dress and the Glazerona
Manufactur and that's where they made the Phantom, uh, the
Phaeton sorry, and that's where they made some Bentley flying

(52:52):
continental flying spur. But it's a completely see through factory
so that the Germans do these things and their cultures.
You're right, design not just for use, but also for
esthetics or for I don't know the feeling, and I
guess we just I would say, you don't do that

(53:14):
as much except I'm sitting in a building with this
incredible courtyard.

Speaker 3 (53:17):
And because the entrepreneur that runs this business is a
paradigm shifter, he creates his own I love people that
are self wrought that I don't believe in luck. I
think you create your own destiny. And someone like Michael Bloomberg. Again,
I'm not kissing up to you guys, although I'm going
to hand you my resume when I leave. But like
it's he's someone who like he couldn't find what he

(53:40):
wanted when he started in terms of having I mean,
he became like a noun, like a Bloomberg device, a screen.
It's become like I often say, like if you want
to know, if you want to trade Andy Warhol, you
have to put your nose against the Bloomberg screen for Warhol,
and that's all you have to do every single day,
twenty four hours. So I love and just the way
he He's on the board of many museums and institutions,

(54:03):
and he converges his interest and he does so in
a way where I wish he was president. And I mean,
they talk about American exceptionalism. I think that's kind of
really depressing because and also like America is great, America
is the best. That's absurd. Go to Italy. I went
to Ghana to do a piece for GQ. Go to
any country and they're all extraordinary. Now everyone's poo pooing

(54:26):
like globalism. That's the whole beauty of being in art
and cars is because you get to intermingle with people
from all walks of life, in all different cultures and
to learn from them. So yeah, I love all of
that stuff and I love to co mingle. My life
is so short. I always say to my students, don't
listen to me, don't listen to your family, certainly not

(54:47):
your teachers. But you have to make look at the
two of you a living like a perfect kind of
example of following your interest in the extreme and making
it your life, your vocation.

Speaker 2 (54:57):
This is my best self when I'm with Hannah, though,
you know I feel the same.

Speaker 3 (55:02):
And I.

Speaker 1 (55:05):
Just had this conversation with somebody yesterday where they were
saying their life wasn't they expect what they expected? And
I said, my life is exactly what I expected. Actually,
like looking back, there was every moment, even at low moments,
underneath it all, I was still really happy and really like, yeah,
this is it. This is it. Every single day. I mean,

(55:28):
everything in my life has built up to where I
am now, which is what I always wanted to be doing.
It's I mean, yes, I totally agree with you, Kenny.
I think if you don't like your life, change it.
And I know that's such a trite thing to say.

Speaker 2 (55:42):
But I want to get I want to get back
to cars here And wait.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
A second, I think I was getting on my soapbox.

Speaker 2 (55:48):
I'm so happy, I'm happy for you, but I want
to I saw some interesting stats today and when you
mentioned nationality and cars, I think it's so interesting. When
I first started visiting plants in Detroit, and you both
may know this, but not everyone does. There's some parking
lots where they don't allow foreign cars to park. So
even if you work at you know, this Ford plant,

(56:10):
you're not allowed to park a Honda there. You have
to park somewhere else. And today I saw something really surprising.
No car maker imports more cars from overseas than General Motors.
They import more cars to the US selling the US
than Toyota or Nissan or Honda. And another interesting stat.

Speaker 3 (56:32):
I would sell my shares, then.

Speaker 2 (56:35):
They're gonna have a lot of problems. No car maker
exports more cars from the US to other countries than BMW.
They export more cars from here is probably than Ford,
than GM than Stilantis. And that just makes me think
about the fact that is it really an American car?
Like I bought a Chevy truck and I bought a

(56:57):
Dodge Challenger. The truck was made in Mexico. Thenger it
was made in Canada. And yet people walk to my
house and they say, oh, you have two American cars? Right?
But that simple I digress. What do you find any
American cars interesting or good? Because you say you started
getting into like seventies, eighties, nineties, So is there stuff
that you love from America as opposed to from Italy

(57:18):
or from Germany or from Tokyo.

Speaker 3 (57:19):
You know, by the way, the CEO of Ford had
a bid car, a BYD Chinese car. Yes, you get
like three hundred grand worth of car for thirty thousand dollars.

Speaker 2 (57:31):
We've had him on this podcast gym.

Speaker 3 (57:32):
Way, Oh my god, that's so cool.

Speaker 2 (57:35):
He was really obsessed with the Oh my god, I
paled to that guy with the with the kind of
hybrid what do you call the kind of hybrid car
where the engine just charges the battery.

Speaker 3 (57:44):
He invented like a five minute that increases the range
of an electric motor. He's a battery maven.

Speaker 2 (57:50):
So but what what do you like in terms of
like nationalities you like? You mentioned the Launchia right, but
do you like any American cars?

Speaker 3 (57:57):
Yeah? I just number one. I think like a Vettes.

Speaker 1 (58:01):
Yes, really cool, thank you, criminally underrated.

Speaker 3 (58:06):
Yes, and I mean you look at them today and
I always my first impression is what ferrari is that
they look insane. So you get a lot of bang
for your bucks, you.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
Know, beautiful. And by the way, they just changed the
interior and got rid of that waterfall of control buttons
that goes down the center stack. No, I'm not I
love those buttons.

Speaker 1 (58:26):
I think they heard the people. The people spoke, but
then you go and get an older car.

Speaker 3 (58:30):
And by the way, like, I know you love motorcycles.
I would have a motorcycle in my living room if
I was into it.

Speaker 1 (58:35):
Well, that brings up a question I have that I
went on.

Speaker 2 (58:38):
Yeah, I wanted to hear of you, like any American
Corvette is the only one vet.

Speaker 1 (58:42):
But here's a question that's philosophical in nature. Yeah, I know.
Is it is it equally valuable to enjoy a car
that you don't drive or a motorcycle that you don't drive? Like,
is that so in your mind? As a quote unquote guy,
is that of equal standing?

Speaker 3 (59:04):
I have to say, I'm always contradicting myself every sentence,
so I remember every It was the biggest adventure when
we were living in London and I was taking my
kids to school every day, was is the car going
to break down? From a nineteen thirty nine lands Here
Prila to a Series one XJ six with the manual transmission.

(59:24):
I had a Delta into Graale that broke down on
the bridge, and like the British have this crazy do
it yourself meant pull yourself up by the bootstraps mentality
where the kids don't wear winter jackets. And I went
out to push the car with all the kids in it,
and some bicycle dude got off his bike and pushed
me across the bridge single handedly and told me to
get back in the car.

Speaker 1 (59:44):
Nice.

Speaker 2 (59:44):
But yeah, I mean, I think I think some are
I think, I.

Speaker 1 (59:50):
Asked because in the car world there's certainly more credibility
given to you know, if you drive the car.

Speaker 3 (59:57):
If you don't drive it, it's gonna it's going to
fall to pieces.

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
But as an artist, can't you appreciate.

Speaker 3 (01:00:03):
I was driving my kid to school in an old
seventies Porsche and I said, doesn't it look great inside?
And he goes, yeah, it's such a minimalist dash And no,
I said no. In my office garage, where there's no
crazy drive, no bikers spitting on me, no stone chips,
no crazy people. I mean, it's amazing that you don't

(01:00:24):
get retested to drive a car and you could be eighty.
I had some guy who was well into his eighties
who slammed into the back of a rear motored nine
to eleven, and that's no joy.

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
I think you have to have driven to use it.
I think it's okay. So for example, you have to
use it. I'm putting now at Dukati in my living
room and perfect. I spent a couple of decades riding it.
I'm getting to I don't like to fold myself up
that much anymore, and so I loved driving it, but
now it's a little uncomfortable and I just want to

(01:00:56):
look at it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:56):
But you put out time, and it's if you like again,
if you buy a painting and you shove it in
and you never take it out of the crate. I mean,
I'm such a car addict. That's I've done stuff like that.
But that's criminal. And what I like about cars and bikes,
if you don't drive them, you have to pay. There's
a price to be paid because unless you lube it
up and drain the fluids out, the rubber is going

(01:01:19):
to run. So the disuse of these vehicles causes discernible
damage to their.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
True Well, we have that discussion here a lot because
Hannah and Magnus buy high mile cars and I I
have a bad habit of looking for low mile vehicles.
But now I've been thinking, wait, do I really want
to buy you know something that's ten years old and
only has six hundred miles on it, Like, that's not
going to work as well as something that has sixty
thousand miles on it, because at least I know that

(01:01:46):
they were using it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:47):
And taking low mile stuff. I'm always like, oh, I
guess it wasn't that great to drive.

Speaker 3 (01:01:51):
I like, I don't want six hundred miles, but I'll
take twenty to thirty five. I like low mileage cars
with the full history but have been used.

Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
There's a sweet spot in there as long.

Speaker 3 (01:02:00):
As there's regularly service with the spark plugs change and
the oils change. But I have this Honda Integra type bar.
I think there's forty thousand miles. That's ninety eight. It's
one of the rawest what I had back surgery because
I was lifting sculpture and I blew my disc into
my spinal cord and I was nearly paralyzed and I

(01:02:21):
was rushed into emergency surgery. And when I got out
of surgery, my foot moved, but my legs still didn't move.
And from the hospital bed, I bought the Integra, thinking
I could always lift my leg and stick it in
the car and press the gas.

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
Oh my gosh, it's terrifying when you're in that situation.

Speaker 3 (01:02:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
I almost lost a leg in a motorcycle accident. And
the first thing I started to do when I came
to four days later, it was, oh my god, googling
how I could ride a motorcycle with only one leg. Oh,
you know, because when.

Speaker 3 (01:02:51):
You win, I think I really liked the boat of
you more than before.

Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
Wow, I didn't.

Speaker 3 (01:02:56):
Know that, Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (01:02:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
Luckily my mom my mother came and convinced them not
to amputate, and now my legs work fine, and I.

Speaker 3 (01:03:03):
Could walk fine and drive the cars. And wow, that's crazy,
that's insane.

Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
So what about so you you like these more eclectic vehicles,
the LAUNCHA, the Integra, right, I guess the RSR. Anyone
would want that. But what are your favorites? Is there
is there any that you think like? That is an
iconic masterpiece and I have to have it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:31):
Many but a two point a poorest two point seven
RS Lightweight, which was only made for one year. And
it's funny because there was I like, I called the
seats in a car the furniture. So I bought a
Renault Turbo one based on the based on the seat.
It had the craziest car seat I think I've ever seen,
or certainly among the most. I even made furniture out

(01:03:53):
of out of out of one of them. Literally I
put a base on it and put it into my house,
and the heart you think, I'm totally out of my
gourd crazy. But the hardware to move the seat, which
is like a little pringle, It's like a little potato
chip in the rus that just the two point seven
RS is the everyday supercar race car that your grandma

(01:04:15):
could drive it. You could do the grocery, you could see.
You don't have to lie down to drive it, like
your motorcycle, except you're going the other way and it's
a and you could turn it on unlike most ferraris
after nine months and it'll fire right up. So I
think the hardware is like this long elongated screw and
in the middle of the screw is this round nut

(01:04:37):
that's sort of flat on both sides, and I never
quite figured out how it even works, but it was
just a piece of sculpture. It was wild. So I
love that. And yeah, that's probably my favorite of all
cars because it just ticks all the boxes. It's fast,
it's raw. No one knows if it's twenty grand or
significantly more. So, it's not pretentious and no one wants

(01:04:58):
to key you just for being you, I think. And
then yeah, like, I mean it could. It looks like
every other Porsche from.

Speaker 1 (01:05:09):
The error totally, totally. It looks like we get you, dude,
we get yeah. Very and also it looks quiet luxury.

Speaker 3 (01:05:16):
You could make a replica, which I hate, and I
hate people that like pre date post date, after dating.

Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
Really you don't like backdating or I.

Speaker 3 (01:05:24):
Don't like singer, I mean you can't.

Speaker 1 (01:05:26):
This is the truth.

Speaker 3 (01:05:28):
I don't care. I don't care if you modify something,
but don't put your fie name on it because you
didn't make it. It's a Porsche, don't put Gimbala on it.
Or I mean, roof is probably the greatest. They are
roof poor, so for six million dollars, I think it's
a super cool car. They are like the one exception,
there's always an exception, but otherwise, like if something is great,

(01:05:48):
it was when. I mean, the Germans can't even engineer
things terribly well anymore. Unfortunately, there's a lot of issues
infrastructurally in that country.

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
I don't know. I'm although I guess the car I'm
driving right now is all and what is that technique?
It's the Mercedes G Wagon, the G five eighty and
it's I will say listeners will have heard this already.
It is the first time that I have ever wanted
an electric version of a car more than a gas
version of a car. And I didn't think I was

(01:06:17):
going to because I had inn Well, no, it's made
by Magna steyr In.

Speaker 3 (01:06:22):
They were originally Pook or something.

Speaker 2 (01:06:24):
I think Hannah knows the relationship there, but they were.
So I just think this is a perfect.

Speaker 3 (01:06:33):
Vehicle, every dynamic.

Speaker 2 (01:06:35):
Of the cars on sale today, of the cars that
are made now, this is the one if I could
only have one, that I would buy. And it's shocking
to me because it's amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:06:45):
That is the motorcycles. How do you feel about this?
How do you feel about it?

Speaker 3 (01:06:49):
Okay, so I'll say something that will make me no friends,
I hate electric cars.

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:06:55):
I've never driven one, and I would like to feel
instant acceleration. I don't. Once the key turns, I lose interest.
So the guy that helps me with all my cars,
he's brilliant, and he still works with me in various
other capacities now that I'm not living in the UK.
And he was so frustrated that I didn't know what
a carburetor was, torque and all of these different things

(01:07:16):
that he bought me a model kit to build my
own transparent engine. It remains in the box and I
love it unused, but when it comes to okay, so
I love a classic Mini. For me is the greatest
epitome of all design. It appealed to wealthy people and
not wealthy people, and it was affordable and coveted by all,

(01:07:39):
and it was the first piece of truly like democratic
industrial design. And to drive it is as much joy
and pleasure, especially if it's supercharged, and as any car
worth one hundred times more. But electric cars, the lead batteries,
the plastics, the shelf life of these bats. If you

(01:08:01):
scrap all the teslas in the world, even before he
wielded a chainsaw and became I mean, I guarantee you
that whole doage thing will cost the US government more
than anything. But I won't get there. But like if
you get a small engined car and preserve older cars,
you will add significantly to the to the longevity of

(01:08:22):
this planet.

Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
No argument for us and this, yeah, I mean, I
say it all the time. If you want to save
the planet, stop buying new things, start using what's already great.
I stopped consumer My.

Speaker 3 (01:08:34):
Pants are from the nineties, vintage polyester.

Speaker 2 (01:08:38):
We agree with you on those things always we agree
with you on those things. But we also are in
this business. We're test driving new products all the time.
So that's why that's why I say, of new products
that are currently produced, if I could only buy one,
this would be it, because I think it's really the
Swiss Army Knife of all vehicles out there.

Speaker 3 (01:08:59):
You can't buy a Iron or a Ferrari in a manual,
like they say.

Speaker 2 (01:09:03):
It's crazy. I don't know why Ben yet, I don't
know why Vinya does that, or why his predecessors have
done that. Why would Ferrari not want to.

Speaker 3 (01:09:11):
Make I tried to do it and there was an uproar.
But if I make sense, I have such a short
attention span, it does. People don't. They don't, kids stay,
they don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:09:19):
They say they they say they want a manual. But
the take every automaker says, the take rate is less
than one percent, but.

Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
Not just manual. Why so, I've said this a million times,
But if I were the CEO of Ferrari Benedetovina, I
would say, We're going to make one vehicle. We make
so many different models. We're gonna make one model that
has no screens in it, that has all analog gauges,
that has a stick shift, that has a handbreak, that
has mechanical steering or hydraulic assists, not a computer, no

(01:09:48):
throttle by not by wire but actually by a wire.
You know, so, I don't even know they did away
with handbreaks.

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
You can buy that. It just happened to be made
in nineteen eighty.

Speaker 2 (01:09:57):
I know they could make one and they could charge
five million dollars for it and it would fly off
the shop.

Speaker 3 (01:10:02):
I had a Geneta, I had a Caterum. I had
my attention sp What.

Speaker 2 (01:10:07):
Do you think of the cater I'm only interested in that.

Speaker 3 (01:10:09):
That's the That's basically, that's the the There's only a
hair that separates a caterm from a motorcycle, if you
want to. I went to the nurburg Ring. By the way,
I'm the worst driver. I forgot to mention that my
attention span is like a fly unless I'm crazily engaged.
So the reason I can only drive manuals is because
otherwise my mind will wander and I'll just drive into

(01:10:30):
a wall. It makes me pay attention. I even lost
track of where I was on the nurburg Ring because
there's seventy six turns. But I had a friend who
had a D Type in all these fancy pansy cars,
and I had a Caterum and an old beat up
Dino that I traded for Mitsubishi. But anyway, Yeah, so
they say the best security device anti theft device for

(01:10:53):
a car is a manual transmission. And if you you
just nailed it, if they made a manual Ferrari, it
would become the most collected car of its time. But
you're right. You're both right, because Hannah, you're right. They've
done studies and even in Europe, even in England, people
are not buying manual cars. It goes back to where

(01:11:14):
we started. Kids just don't have the same visceral relationship
to the automobile. I mean, I guess motorcycles. I don't
know about the scope.

Speaker 2 (01:11:23):
Of the motor The motorcycle sales have been disastrous. It's
not good, very cool, So an incredible conversation. We're gonna
have to have him back.

Speaker 1 (01:11:33):
He needs to be a regular. He's basically our neighbor,
and he is.

Speaker 2 (01:11:37):
And it's easy to jump from topic to topic with him.

Speaker 1 (01:11:40):
There's a lot to digest there. There's a lot to digest.
And I also think we need to talk about his
actual house. I saw that it was featured in the
New York Times and like an architectural art.

Speaker 2 (01:11:49):
Oh yeah, New York magazine, right, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:11:52):
Yes, I actually went to his house yesterday, did so
after the interview. Yes, we were both leaving Bloomberg and
I was like, dude, you said you've never driven an
electric vehicle, and I have this g wagon here, like,
do you want to drive it back to your house?

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):
And he did it.

Speaker 1 (01:12:08):
Yeah, that was so that was his first ever EV experience.

Speaker 2 (01:12:12):
I guess.

Speaker 1 (01:12:12):
So we need to have him back on and hear
what he thought.

Speaker 2 (01:12:15):
Yeah, he didn't really tell me what he thought because
he was just so excited about having been on. And
also it's only three blocks away from I love.

Speaker 1 (01:12:23):
I mean, it's very nice having a Bloomberg fan on.
I didn't actually realize he was really such a fan
of Bloomberg, the man and the business.

Speaker 2 (01:12:30):
Yeah, it was crazy. I was kind of glad Mike
wasn't here.

Speaker 1 (01:12:32):
Because he oh, that would have been overwhelming.

Speaker 2 (01:12:34):
And Mike Bloomberg sits right outside this podcast studio and
he would have been like stalkersh if he'd seen him.
But uh, yeah, so very cool. What have you got
coming up this this weekend?

Speaker 1 (01:12:45):
Is you know what? I'm actually working on the book
a bit. I don't think we've really talked about it,
but I'm working on a coffee table book with my husband, Magnus,
So we're we're well underway to working on that. So
I'm doing that.

Speaker 2 (01:12:59):
And this is a book of his car collection.

Speaker 1 (01:13:01):
Yes, Magnus is top twenty Porsche builds of his own
personal over the years. Nice, and it's going to feature
amazing photographs by a lot of really notable photographers. Each
chapter is about a different car with dozens of photos.
It's going to be three to four hundred pages. It's
going to be a really substantial, really beautiful and in

(01:13:25):
depth book about Porsche's So I'm really excited about that.
It's going to be a lot of work, but we're
really excited about it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:32):
Yeah, I look forward to reading it.

Speaker 1 (01:13:35):
Thank you. I look forward to having you read it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:38):
And then I'll see you back here, same time, same place,
next week.

Speaker 1 (01:13:40):
Shoot us an email, yes, hot pursuit at Bloomberg dot net,
And we really do appreciate every email, whether you're telling
us about the cars your own, or telling us about
what we got wrong or what you want us to
talk about in the future. We do read and appreciate
every email.

Speaker 2 (01:13:58):
Have a great week on Matt Miller.

Speaker 1 (01:14:00):
I'm Hannah Elliott and this is Bloomberg m