Fan Favorite: Knighthead Capital's Tom Wagner

On this special, fan favorite edition of Bloomberg Hot Pursuit!,Tom Wagner of Knighthead Capital joins Hannah Elliott and Matt Miller to discuss Singer, Revology and Formula 1. Plus, his take on the growth potential of endurance racing and the future of EVs and autonomous driving.  

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
I'm Matt Miller and I'm Hannah Elliott, and this is
hot pursuit.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
All right.

Speaker 3 (00:12):
So we have both been excited to talk to Tom
Wagner of Nighthead Capital for a while now, so he's
agreed to come in and talk to us. Let's get
straight into it. I want to just first off say
we both listened to Barrio Holtz podcast and we loved it.
And I always loved Barry's podcast, but Hannah, you're the
one who turned me on to the Tom Wagner episode

(00:33):
and it was great, right.

Speaker 4 (00:34):
It was really good.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
It was very far reaching, and I think it really
set a good platform for where we can jump off of.
So anyone listening, go listen to the Barry Barry podcast
if you want to hear about more of the financial
side and sports teams.

Speaker 4 (00:48):
And Tom Brady.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
And those things, because we're going to focus on cars.
Really yeah, for these purposes.

Speaker 3 (00:55):
So let's start with your company is Nighthead Capital, and
you may investments in a lot of different assets, but
is it still like the distressed debt thing where you
kind of cut your teeth.

Speaker 5 (01:07):
We do a lot of distressed investing, which I would
characterize as maybe not distressed as in the purest form anymore.
We invest in businesses that are going through transitions. Sometimes
that's a turnaround, maybe operationally, maybe financially, maybe strategically, and
we try to find places to deploy capital where our

(01:28):
capital and our expertise can make a difference. And we've
found some interesting investments in the automobile slash mobility space
broadly defined, where we believe we can make a positive impact.

Speaker 3 (01:42):
So Revology and Singer, we've talked about Hertz, I think
is a famous one. And then you have a WEC
racing team, right Yoda, Yeah, are those the big automotive
investments that you have?

Speaker 5 (01:54):
Those are certainly the biggest. There are a few other small,
more venture type things that that we don't really talk about,
and by small I mean really tiny dollars, but where
we think that they are strategically important to us. And
then others that are adjacent to those businesses where we
think we can bolt them on and grow the existing
investments that we have. But those four that you mentioned

(02:17):
have a common thread. We have a view that mobility
is going to move with increasing speed towards electrification because
economically and for other reasons socially environmentally, it makes the
most sense. We were bitterly and hurts. But the thesis
that led us to make that decision to purchase evs

(02:38):
is intact, if you hold the cars for a long
enough period of time, the rows are much better than ices,
and there are lots of other advantages there, but the
fundamental reality is that with most evs they don't inspire
the same kind of passion that certain other vehicles do.
And we felt that as people move towards electric vehicles
as the choice of transportation and to get from point

(03:00):
A to point B, there would be a rise in
interest in vehicles and inspire great passion because people would
use the evs as kind of their mode of transportation,
low cost, you know, high tech. I mean Tesla's you know,
are a great example of that. They're fantastic vehicles in
getting A to B very very safely, very very economically.
But on the weekend, maybe you want to go out

(03:21):
and have a different experience. Let's call it digital versus analog.
The analog experience for those who are car nuts, I think,
like the three of us and probably most of your listeners,
involves more than getting point A to point B.

Speaker 6 (03:33):
It's the feel, it's the smell.

Speaker 5 (03:34):
It's the sound, the vibration, the skill required to move
some of these vehicles with some level of speed and safety.
And we thought that that would continue and that has happened.
There's been a massive rise. Now that rise, we had
a big blip post COVID, and the day of reckoning

(03:54):
is now upon us when demand has kind of come
back to earth a little bit, and that's going to
cause a big shakeout. But I think the long term
trend continues to rise upward and we're going to see
more and more interest in these really really high quality
you know, non ev you know, ice, restored vehicles, reimagined vehicles.

Speaker 6 (04:15):
That whole sector is going to continue to explode.

Speaker 1 (04:17):
Can you talk a little bit about Singer in particular
and what characteristics you saw in that company that made
you know, we really have some potential specifically with Singer. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (04:29):
I think when when we made the investment, we looked
at it and said, is this something that's difficult to replicate?
And I think as much as said, well, there's lots of.

Speaker 6 (04:40):
People that restore porsches, there's lots of people.

Speaker 5 (04:42):
That restore cars, there's nobody that restores them like Singer
and that's why if you look at every you know,
vehicle seller and reseller globally, if you look at all
of them, lump them all together, Singers number two and
average selling price behind only Bugatti. You know, once you
get b On say ten units twenty units a year,
and Singers you know, in the vicinity.

Speaker 6 (05:04):
Of two hundred vehicles per year.

Speaker 3 (05:06):
And that's why the way, that's amazing because Bugatti makes
the car from scratch, like they do it all.

Speaker 2 (05:12):
Singer takes another.

Speaker 3 (05:14):
Vehicle and then modifies it and they still get the
second highest asking price.

Speaker 5 (05:18):
Yeah, it's a it's a reimagination of an existing Porsche
nine sixty four, which is the vehicle upon which Singer
performs its services in behalf of its customers. You know,
that reimagination process is everything other than what I'd characterize
as the body in white or the frame. So you
maintain the frame and you and you know, everything else

(05:39):
is kind of upgraded to the specifications of the customer.
And the level of specialization or customization is mind boggling.
There are no two Singers that are even close to
being the same. You know, you've got to be a
real nerd to notice the differences. But I think if Hannah,
you know, stepped into a car, she'd come, my, gush,
look at this one.

Speaker 6 (05:58):
This is but you know the rest nerd. You're not
a nerd, you car nerd, which we.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
All know is very cool.

Speaker 4 (06:04):
They take it as a badge of honor.

Speaker 6 (06:06):
Yeah it should be.

Speaker 5 (06:07):
But you know you're like, oh, this is the hounds
Tooth seat that you know references this model right exactly.
And you know, if you look at the ductail spoilerund
the Singer DLS, which is sort of their ultra rare
incredible vehicles, you'd say, well, that you know, you know,
draws some comparisons to a seventy three RS. So there's
lots of you know, references to older Porsches that you know,

(06:29):
bits and pieces that the customer says, well, I'd like
to have that in my car. And I think what
makes Singer special is that they do it with an
enormous amount of love for the brand Porsche, an enormous
amount of respect for the customer and what they want.
It's not just about slapping something together and saying here,
you know, let's make it work. Most of these companies

(06:50):
that perform this service don't actually make money.

Speaker 3 (06:54):
But you want to make money with that investment, right, Yeah, yeah,
we can.

Speaker 6 (06:56):
The challenge is getting to scale.

Speaker 1 (06:59):
That's what I was going to ask about, because hasn't
Singer paused production of the nine sixty four and we're
sort of waiting for a nine thirty Turbo, and so
the DLS we're also waiting for. So are those pauses
changing how you're looking?

Speaker 3 (07:16):
Wait, by the way, can I just brief pause. I
don't know nearly as much about Singer as the two
of you.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah, So while we're.

Speaker 3 (07:23):
Asking Tom questions, let's also explain to me, like what
is the DLS?

Speaker 2 (07:27):
What it is that.

Speaker 5 (07:28):
All the all the vehicles that Singer offers restoration services
on are based on the Porsche nine sixty four, which
was manufactured between eighty nine and ninety four, and each
of the vehicles references an older Porsche different variants, and
so the classic was the car that was best known
for Singer, you know, and their customers. Those of were

(07:48):
coming towards the end of that run. I think in
the next eighteen months or so.

Speaker 6 (07:53):
Those will all be produced.

Speaker 5 (07:54):
The car that references to nine thirty Turbo, which is
currently characterized as the class Turbo that vehicle is in
production and deliveries have just started. So Hannah, I will
I will drive mine it good.

Speaker 6 (08:08):
Good in July. Thanks.

Speaker 4 (08:10):
Are you going up the hill?

Speaker 5 (08:12):
No, I don't have my FI license, so I won't
be allowed to drive up the hill, I know, but
I'll drive it on the circuit on the Monday.

Speaker 3 (08:17):
So that's like, that's the Steve McQueen, like the widow Maker, right,
it's a widow it was.

Speaker 1 (08:24):
This is only for those who don't know how to
drive exactly exactly.

Speaker 5 (08:27):
We gotta wait for that boost. This is a modern version.
Boost comes on more quickly. It's it's a really very
special special car. Modern uh traction control and ABS and
some things that you can turn on or off that
allow the vehicle to be driven on wet roads by
an inexperienced driver with with relative safety. You know, within
the bounds of physics. We don't haven't yet invented a

(08:48):
car that can overcome the laws of physics.

Speaker 6 (08:50):
But you know, then.

Speaker 5 (08:51):
There's the DLS Turbo, which is probably you know a
few months away from having its first driveable prototype in
the hands of journalists. And then you know, some other
cars in the queue that will be unveiled, you know,
in the next year or two. But the cars, the
four cars that I mentioned in including DLS which is
a full run that's been fully delivered and is out,

(09:11):
those four cars will take us, you know, through the
next couple of years and beyond. I think the waiting
list is still in the vicinity of three three and
a half years.

Speaker 4 (09:19):
So so basically you're saying, look, the model.

Speaker 1 (09:22):
That you saw when you got involved with the company
remains the same.

Speaker 4 (09:28):
Yeah, it's your goal, your intent.

Speaker 6 (09:30):
That's right.

Speaker 5 (09:31):
It's you know, it's to produce something that is beyond
you know, reproach as it relates to the quality. You know,
these have to be super reliable cars. So I have
a DLS that I drove from London to LamaH for
race weekend. That's a long drive sometimes at you know,

(09:52):
relatively rapid pace. Uh, and you know, it's a it's
a flawless experience. I mean, these are you know, these
are cars that you can sit in for six hours.

Speaker 3 (10:00):
And I see here on the internet DLS is for
Dynamics and Lightweighting Studies.

Speaker 2 (10:05):
That's right, and it's the.

Speaker 3 (10:06):
One I've seen these like, you know, on social media
with the ridiculously wide haunches.

Speaker 6 (10:11):
Yes, and yeah, this one's even wider than one you're
lev I just.

Speaker 2 (10:16):
Don't know enough about that.

Speaker 3 (10:17):
And in the world of Plortia, there's so much to know,
and there's so many acronyms that I sometimes feel like
I can't keep up.

Speaker 6 (10:26):
You can go way down the rabbit hole.

Speaker 4 (10:27):
Yeah, I'm curious.

Speaker 1 (10:28):
You know, you mentioned what's next for Singer, and I
don't expect you to actually say, but is there any
room to go the way of a roof where Singer
would actually build their own cars versus re imagining.

Speaker 6 (10:44):
That's a great question. I think.

Speaker 5 (10:46):
I think the brand would allow Singer to pursue just
about anything it wanted to do. I think, you know,
for the time being, the company is really very focused
on executing as best it can on the strategy of
reimagining Porsches on behalf of its customers. And that's a
great business. You know, are there's a long pipeline of

(11:08):
things that can be done. You know, vehicles that can
be reimagined that I think, you know, would be welcome by.

Speaker 6 (11:13):
All Porsche enthusiasts.

Speaker 5 (11:15):
And look, I think the company knows that not everyone
wants a reimagined car. Some are the purists, They want
the seventy three r US exactly as it was. Others
may say, well, now I'd like to see a different
version of that car. What could be done if you
modernize it? And I think that's there's plenty to do
just with that. And our capital was intended to help

(11:35):
the company get to a place where its production could
support the fixed costs and the business that are necessary
to create vehicles of this quality and with these kinds
of finishes.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
And I was wondering about that.

Speaker 3 (11:47):
How did you get involved in what kind of investment
do you have in Singer?

Speaker 5 (11:50):
Yeah, well, we were asked to refinance a facility that
they had in place from a lender, and you know,
did that and provided some other work and capital facilities
and allowed them to just take the capital, you know,
in the most efficient form possible, while allowing Rob the
founder and Maz the CEO, to really direct the strategy

(12:10):
of the business. They've got a spectacular team of key
executives there and some fantastic engineers that the craftsmen are unbelievable.
I've been to a lot of you know, really high
end vehicle manufacturing facilities and singers. You know, when they
look at the finishes, you look at the body work,

(12:31):
you look at the paint. It's as good as anybody
out there. Gorgeous and and by the way you're starting,
you know, with a company as your reference. In Porsche,
I think does it as well or better than anyone
if you look at the tolerances and Porsche panels, you know,
as compared to some other very very hand automobile companies.
You know, it's really hard to get into where Porsche
is pretty.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
Good, build quality, very good.

Speaker 3 (12:53):
But how did they know to ask you? I mean, like,
were you already into Porsche?

Speaker 1 (12:57):
No?

Speaker 5 (12:57):
I mean was I into Porsche's Yeah? I mean I
loved cars, but I grew up not being able to
afford any. My first car was a seventy eight Corolla
SR five hatchback that was nmission of course, yeah.

Speaker 6 (13:10):
Rusting away.

Speaker 4 (13:11):
How much did you pay for that car?

Speaker 6 (13:13):
Zero?

Speaker 5 (13:13):
Because my dad said, if you can get it running,
you can drive it. And so I quickly learned how
to overhaul an engine and do breaks and a series
of other things in the driveway. Not the safest thing
in the world, you know, like in the old days
without jack stands like not smart.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
But I bet you still love driving it.

Speaker 6 (13:30):
Oh yeah, I don't have it anymore.

Speaker 2 (13:31):
No, no, I mean all the time.

Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, Like it was awesome.

Speaker 5 (13:36):
You taught myself how to drive a stick on it
and yeah. But I think you know, when you have
those experiences, you fall in love with cars and you
imagine that it's not that it's not the slowest thing
on the road, and you imagine that it doesn't have
to rush through you know, the door panels. But you know,
as as you get older and into life, you know,
hopefully you can afford something better. And I the weird

(13:56):
thing is, two weeks before the Porsche investment and became available,
our partner in the Hurts investments of firm Culture Taris,
and one of the founders there is a guy named
Greg O'Hara, and you know, we were just talking and
he's like, is there anything you always wanted but you
wouldn't leave still buy. I'm like, yeah, there's this one
car and he's like, yeah, me too, and he's like,
you know, he said, my thing's a singer. I'm like,

(14:18):
oh my god, that's mine as well. And he's like,
why don't you have one? I'm like cause't. I just
can't let myself do it. It's too special, right, It's
always that thing I held on a platform. And so
literally two weeks later, totally unrelated, I get a in
a meeting or having a barbecue with somebody and he says, oh,
you must be looking at Singer, given your view on
vehicles and you know, this kind of digital versus analog world.

(14:40):
And I said, no, there's no way Singer needs any
financial assistants. They get a multi year backlog and he's like, no, no, no,
they're looking for some capital. And so we get connected
to the lawyer that was representing him, and one thing
led to another. And what's nice about that is, you know,
we've learned a ton about the space and the industry,
and I think that we've been able to add value

(15:00):
and helping the company think strategically. And what I would
say is that I think Singers now have a view
that you know, maybe it's a little bit more of
a luxury brand than what we originally thought. And with
all things luxury, the goal is sell less for more.
So let's not push the sales higher. Let's push sales,
you know, target sales units lower. Maybe get a little

(15:22):
bit additional price, but make it more exclusive.

Speaker 6 (15:25):
And I think, you know that's a really I hate that.

Speaker 4 (15:29):
I won't love it. I love it one time.

Speaker 3 (15:30):
You know, Keanu Reeves makes these arch motorcycles, of course,
and I ran into him and makes a m Doukatti
World premiere in Milan a few years ago, and he
was saying he was talking to the CEO, and I
kind of barge in their conversation. He was saying, they're
making another version and the one they sells are like
seventy five grande.

Speaker 2 (15:49):
I can't really justify that. So I was like, oh, cool, are.

Speaker 3 (15:51):
You going to make one that's cheaper? And he said no,
it's going to cost twice the price.

Speaker 2 (15:56):
And I was like, I'm priced.

Speaker 6 (15:57):
Out, all right.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
I know, well that is interesting because I was going
to ask if you considered Singer to be a luxury
asset for sure, and do you value that differently than
like an infrastructure asset, for instance.

Speaker 5 (16:09):
So infrastructure, you know, you know, in a reasonably low
rate environment like the more we're in now, I mean
it's not as low as it as it was, but
you know, infrastructure assets are command high multiples if the
durability of earnings is very stable. But if we say,
let's compare it to another manufacturing business, it's worth a multiple,
you know, like if a manufacturing business its ten percent

(16:31):
ebitdam margins is worth you know, seven times ebitdes six
seven times. But you know, Singers with their margins is
worth you know, mid teens, high teens, which is consistent
with where if you were to graph out not Ferrari,
ferraris a little bit higher because that brand is really
pretty spectacular.

Speaker 6 (16:49):
But there's a case to.

Speaker 5 (16:51):
Be made that you know, Singer represents one of the
very few luxury brands that are based in the US,
and that was you know, really created in the US,
and me Rob done a great job of bringing that
California car ethos you know, into.

Speaker 6 (17:04):
The business, and.

Speaker 5 (17:07):
I think his ability to create this zeitgeist of you know,
of Singer is is really incredible. And Maz and the
team have done an amazing job of marketing it globally
and trying to do it in a way that that
respects our partners and and you know, at the same time,

(17:27):
you know, makes it a business that can grow and
be profitable.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
This may derail our whole conversation, but I'm going to
ask it anyway, because I'm really fascinated by what you
said about, you know, sort of mentioning and verbalizing that
you had singer on a pedestal basically, and two weeks
later you have an opportunity to get involved. And I
remember in Barrie's conversation you mentioned a friend I think

(18:01):
of your dad's when you were very young, who asked
what you wanted and you told him, and in a
matter of months later, you were You were there, you
were in the Cayman Islands with a boat making the
amount of money that you had said, how often does
this happen to you? And what is this magic that
you are seemingly able to conjure when you speak things?

Speaker 4 (18:24):
And then the universe?

Speaker 6 (18:27):
Yes, it's not a superpower everybody has.

Speaker 5 (18:30):
It's it's about manifesting an outcome. You just you know,
you have to be open minded to it that you
know there's a god.

Speaker 6 (18:40):
It's going to sound super corny, but.

Speaker 5 (18:42):
There's a really good book called The Secret, and if
you haven't read it, you should read it. That's for
everybody listening. I don't care how successful you are, you
should read the book. And you probably if you're if
you happen to be very successful. You're probably either very
luckily lucky or you're you're already you know, using some
of these skills. I think you have to be open to,
you know, whether we call it the universe or we

(19:03):
just call it, you know, karma, we call it, you know,
the coincidences of life. You have to be open to
allowing these things to come into your sphere. And I think,
you know, as it relates to Singer, that was something
we cared about, and sure enough it presented itself. Racing
was something that we thought would be really interesting and

(19:24):
we were like, Okay, we're not going to go out
and buy into an F one team and pay a
really high price where we own a minority stake and
our capital doesn't do anything. You know, we want to
find something where we can actually make a difference. And
sure enough, you know, that ended up happening. So I
do think these things can happen. It doesn't always work,
and sometimes bad things happen, and you get to figure
out why we don't always get it right. You know,

(19:46):
we certainly didn't get everything right and hurts, but I
think we've learned a lot from it. And as you
go through life, whether you're investing or you know, working
in a different job or industry. You have to take
your mistakes as a gift and learn from them and
build on them and try to do better the next
time you go out.

Speaker 6 (20:03):
That's all we can do.

Speaker 3 (20:04):
So how much of I mean the investment in Singer
and in Revology and Yoda, those have to be different
than the other, like purely business investments you.

Speaker 2 (20:16):
Make right because you love this product.

Speaker 5 (20:19):
It's a different The standard's the same, Yeah, the standard
is we've got to make a good return. Singer will be,
you know, a good, very good investment for us. Revology
will be a very good investment for us.

Speaker 6 (20:32):
You know. On on that topic, the reason that we
pursued Revology is we felt that.

Speaker 5 (20:38):
There was an opportunity for them to become one of
the very first companies.

Speaker 6 (20:43):
To pursue production under the Fast Act in the US,
which is the formerly known as the Small Vehicle Manufacturer Law,
which you know, my guess is most people are like,
what the heck is that?

Speaker 4 (20:53):
Yeah, please enlighten us.

Speaker 5 (20:54):
So the fast Act has now been fully you know,
written and put into law. It is a provision that
allows a small vehicle manufacturer, which is less than five
thousand units a year to go to an original OEM
and get a license for IP for a vehicle that's
over twenty five years old, that small vehicle manufacturer that

(21:15):
can then reimagine and re manufacture that original car.

Speaker 6 (21:20):
And re imagine means.

Speaker 5 (21:21):
Tolerant exterior toalansers tolerances within ten percent, which is pretty wide,
you know, pretty wide variants, and interior that can be
entirely new. The only requirement is that the drive train
must be current era emissions compliant and if you if
you achieve all those things, there's no safety hym alligation,
so you can can use the safety requirements of the

(21:41):
original vehicle and you get a new vin So now
everyone says, well, that's much lower cost than because you
could start with a carbon tub. So you could say,
I'm going to make a you know nineteen you know,
seventy Ford Bronco start with a carbon tub. Very easy
to manufacture off a carbon tup versus one of the
rolling chassis that you can buy.

Speaker 6 (22:02):
Because you have a really rigid.

Speaker 5 (22:04):
Frame, it's you know, everything's perfectly square. The problem is
you've got to go through the process of getting current
your emissions compliant drive train and then incorporating it into that,
and then getting all the engineering right and making sure
that you have a good, safe product even though you
don't you know, you don't may not have the requirements,
it's still.

Speaker 3 (22:20):
And Ford could say, well, Ford's got.

Speaker 6 (22:22):
To believe in you enough to allow you to do it.
And I use Ford as an example.

Speaker 5 (22:25):
You use any any oem a car over twenty five
years old, which brings you, by the way, it's scary
as it's to.

Speaker 6 (22:30):
Say, you know, into the late nineties, so there's a
whole plathora of really cool cars that you could do well.

Speaker 3 (22:34):
And by the way, it's interesting that you chose the
Bronco because I know a lot of people are skeptical
of these resto mod companies because there's a whole wave
of Bronco knockoff garages among.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
Them that fall apart.

Speaker 3 (22:49):
And Hannah and I talk about this a lot because
I'm like, I'm like, hey, Revology is a different story
because they're building it from the ground up. They have
actual engineers that used to work at Ford's Special Vehicle Unit,
who are you know, have built their own factory in Orlando,
so so help us. Obviously, you're gonna you're obviously you're
talking about to convince me.

Speaker 5 (23:10):
Yes, Yes, I would say we've we have looked at
a great number of and I'm going to use the
word restomode as a non pejorative term to say, you know,
it captures that whole and to clarify and yeah, and
just say, like anyone that takes an old car and
makes it new, newer, you know, reimagines it, rebuilds it,

(23:32):
whatever you want, however you want to describe it. They're
not all created equal, and we've looked at a lot
of them, and I would say, I'll say two things. One,
Revology does things very differently than nearly all, not all,
but nearly all of the other manufacturers out there, and
they do some things that are in fact different than
every other, uh one of those companies. The second thing

(23:52):
is that for all these businesses, you know, they take
a deposit from the customer, they then go up on
the car. There's there's a sequence of payments and I
delivered car. When you take a deposit from a customer upfront,
it's you know, you put that on your balance sheet
and the account is working capital. And they will all say,
we don't have debt, Well, you don't have debt, but
you have a payment that you owe, or you have
a product future product that you ow.

Speaker 6 (24:12):
To the customer. It's the same thing as debt.

Speaker 5 (24:14):
When you deliver the customer, you've got to repay it
by way of you know, releasing that off your balance sheet.
And when we saw the huge explosion and demand for
these cars post COVID and kind of late twenty through
you know, mid early to mid twenty twenty two, demand
goes through the roof, all these deposits flow in, they
build the cars, then the deposits leave the balance sheet.
What happens, Well, it's like you have to repay a

(24:36):
bunch of debt and if you haven't played, if you
haven't planned for that, that release of working capital is very,
very difficult to manage for a small company, and so
a lot of these businesses out there are struggling to
remain solvent in the context of a world where demand
is shrunk, you know, kind of coming back to trend line,
which means sales for the next over the course of

(24:58):
the last year and probably for the next year or
two will be lower than a steady state number of sales.

Speaker 3 (25:04):
So it's a target rich environment for you.

Speaker 5 (25:06):
It is, but most of these companies don't. They're not
going to make it because they haven't invested in the
business and they don't have a differentiated product. So I
would agree with Hannah that, you know, for many of
these these companies that are they're really just large garages
and they've they've got economies of scale in the sense
that they're doing the same thing over and over, but

(25:26):
they haven't done the engineering work. Revology is in fact,
very very different. And Hannah, if you were to, you know,
visit Revology, just do one simple thing.

Speaker 6 (25:36):
Just close the door.

Speaker 5 (25:37):
Oh really, just close the door own. I own two
nineteen sixties Mustangs. Both are original that have been restored.
They're in great condition. But if you close the door
of those.

Speaker 6 (25:47):
Cars and you close the door of a Revology, that's
not the same thing.

Speaker 4 (25:50):
I look forward to doing that.

Speaker 5 (25:52):
Yeah, it's good, and it's a good you know, I mean,
and then it's you know, when you put it into gear,
what happens, right, you get that lurch against your break pet.
You know, we all we've all driven those old cars,
and that's vertu. Yeah, it's very common. I mean, I
gotta you know, I always joke my wife's got a
fifty sixty Bird, and I'm like, it's the most deadly
vehicle I've ever driven. I mean, it's a complete death trap.

(26:13):
It's got a metal steering wheel that's right about.

Speaker 6 (26:15):
You know, jaw high.

Speaker 4 (26:16):
You know, it makes you feel alive.

Speaker 6 (26:18):
Now, you feel very alive, that's for sure.

Speaker 5 (26:21):
But those are you know, those are very realistic experience
that are consistent with the time that those vehicles were
engineered and made, because you know, look, it was just
a different era. It was this seventy year old cars.
The Revology vehicles don't feel like that. They don't drive
like that. They don't they're not durable like that. They're
they're modern pieces of machinery in every sense. They just
look old and that's what makes them so fantastic.

Speaker 2 (26:44):
So how did you find?

Speaker 3 (26:45):
Tom Scarpello is the guy who presents the car, he's
the founder. He also presents the car on the Leno clip,
And if I were doing it.

Speaker 2 (26:53):
I would sell it like hotcakes, you know.

Speaker 3 (26:55):
But he's clearly an engineer because he's going into very
minute yea detail of like how he created the door handle.

Speaker 5 (27:03):
You know, if you were the same Tom, you know,
is his personality. It's not the same as a rob
At singer, but they're similar in the sense that they
don't sell their product. The product sells the product, and
they just tell you their vision. You know, each comes
in from a slightly different perspective. And rob as an
artist and very much into the aesthetics, and Tom, you know,

(27:24):
as an engineer and very much into what makes his
cars truly spectacular from an engineering perspective. Both There's lots
of overlap, by the way, with each of them, and
so I think.

Speaker 2 (27:34):
Did you bog up with them at the same time.

Speaker 5 (27:36):
No, it was later we we developed a thesis more
fully that these that these cars that inspire passion would
continue to grow an interest, and we went out looking
for another company to invest in one that we thought
we could help become the first and potentially only, you know,
fast act manufacturer, and Revology was the only one that

(27:56):
we found that that that we thought had what it
would take to be able to produce those vehicles.

Speaker 3 (28:01):
But there's no one else taking advantage of that long.

Speaker 6 (28:04):
I mean, there's others that will try.

Speaker 5 (28:05):
We didn't find anybody that we felt had everything it
takes and I don't want to, you know, out of
respect for what Revology's done, I won't. I won't say
chapter and verse what it takes, but it's it's a lot,
it's a lot of capital, it's a lot of engineering expertise,
a lot of design expertise, and it's and it is
a fantastic relationship with whichever OEM you know you'd like
to get a license agreement with.

Speaker 6 (28:25):
They have to believe in you.

Speaker 5 (28:26):
It's sort of like, you know, any business relationship, you
got to make sure your counterparty is going to be
there and be around it. We hope that part of
what we bring to the table is the financial stability
to allow the counterparts to say, Okay, these guys will
be here and they can do a good job and
the customers don't need to worry about the deposits.

Speaker 4 (28:42):
What is in it for Ford?

Speaker 1 (28:44):
Obviously there's a licensing agreement that I'm sure is it
very lucrative? Is it a little bit lucrative? You know,
how does this benefit forward?

Speaker 5 (28:53):
I think I think it would be fair to say
that it's very beneficial to the brand. You know, you're celebrating,
you know, a vehicle that is decades old, obviously, you know,
whatever vehicle they decide to do with, whichever OEM they
decide to do it with. You know, you're celebrating that
original vehicle in a very special way, and it brings

(29:16):
it to a group of consumers that really aren't going
to do that on their own. You know, the person
who buys a Revology Mustang, you know, into into six
figures for the car fully out of three hundred. Right, Yeah,
they're not out shopping for It's not like they're choosing
that over.

Speaker 4 (29:36):
You know, it's not cannibalizing anything nothing.

Speaker 5 (29:39):
In fact, they're more likely you know, to bring up
their local dealer and ask for the new G T
three Mustang, which they won't get because they are none available.
But that but I think there it attaches them to
a brand. They're probably more likely to go out in
auction and look for, you know, one of the last
two generations at GT forties. I just think that you know,

(30:00):
all of a sudden, you say, oh, I've got this
thing and i'd like to have, you know, the OEM's
version of a great car, you know, the kind of
greatest of great cars as well. So I think it's very,
very beneficial to the brand. I think it enhances the brand.
You know, I would tell you that in the case
of Singer, there's been luxury brand businesses, you know that
that have taken an interest in Singer and said, you know,

(30:21):
there's there's got to be, you know, some value here
that can be unlocked. And I think that shows that
you are in fact creating something that's luxury.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
And you you mean like carrying or LVMH.

Speaker 3 (30:32):
Is I just mean that I won't interesting specifically, I
mean that's what you mean.

Speaker 5 (30:35):
Yeah, in the realm of non auto luxury type companies,
and you know, because they whether it's watches or what
have you, that say, you know, this is something that's
really interesting, and so you can think of really creative
partnerships to pursue that celebrate both brands at the same time.
And there's lots of that in racing and an auto
generally speaking, right, I mean, look at the brands that

(30:56):
are on the side of modern race cars, you know,
particularly in F one, which I think from a brand.

Speaker 4 (31:01):
Value, I'm going to ask you about Formula one.

Speaker 5 (31:03):
Yeah, I mean F one is it's fantastic. It's I
watch it every weekend, like it's not like it's a
great surprise how things shake out. But I think what's
great about it is that you are you know you're
watching these masterful pieces of machinery.

Speaker 6 (31:19):
You know that you are attached.

Speaker 5 (31:22):
To something that's it's about the overall experience, like going
enough one race isn't really about.

Speaker 6 (31:26):
Like being glued to the race.

Speaker 5 (31:28):
It's about everything else that goes on there. And I
happen to think that the most underappreciated racing brand in
the world is WEK World in Derby's Championship, where we
have an investment in one of the teams.

Speaker 6 (31:41):
And I'll tell you why.

Speaker 5 (31:42):
I say that people watch sports and they get attached
to sports for two reasons. You know, it's the tribalism element,
where you can attach to something that makes you feel
part of a community. Okay, I'll get to the tribalism
in a second. And what WEC has the second is
uncertainty of outcome. Okay, there is no sporting event in
the world there's more than certainly about come on the
twenty four hours of Lama. You don't have the slightest

(32:02):
idea who's going to win that race. You can be
twenty three hours into watching it. You have no idea
is going to win. There's nothing else that goes on
for that duration. Maybe cricket, but you know that that
has zero certainty on how things are going to play out.
And on the tribalism side, what's happened with the new
l M D and l M D H entrance is
it's brought in all the OEMs. So you have the

(32:24):
major major manufacturers are getting involved and putting cars forward.
You know, you've got Ferrari Portie for Ford in the
GT three series, Lamborghini, We've got Cadillac in WEC and
and the list goes on and on, and others that
are lined up to come in that.

Speaker 6 (32:43):
That I won't name because I'm not sure whether it's public.

Speaker 5 (32:46):
Or not, but it's going to be fantastic, right And
so you've got this incredible grid. By the way, you
can be a customer as we are currently meaning you know,
you go buy a car and hire somebody to race
it for you, and you can actually get into the
race not as a driver, but as a as a
you know, as a as a participant and bring your
own sponsors. And I just think it's an incredibly undervalued
assets coming to CODA for Labor Day weekend that encourage people.

Speaker 6 (33:09):
To check it out.

Speaker 2 (33:11):
Twenty four hours of CODA.

Speaker 5 (33:12):
CODA is going to be six if I'm not mistaken,
like I see. So there's different races, different durations.

Speaker 6 (33:18):
Yeah, so I.

Speaker 3 (33:18):
Watch only Moto GP and sometimes Formula One, but I
don't have time to I don't have time to devote
any more than that because I'm already watching you know,
practice qualifying sprint race.

Speaker 6 (33:31):
But it's only eight races a year.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
I only know Lama and Daytona.

Speaker 5 (33:36):
Yeah, so Daytona's part of IMSA and Seabring's part of
IMSA and then but you know there's a race at SPA.

Speaker 3 (33:42):
Wait, so those are different than we Different is very confusing,
I know, be underappreciated.

Speaker 2 (33:47):
Maybe that's why.

Speaker 5 (33:48):
I think WEK is like International imps US and WEC
has the you know, it's one of the three race
races in the world is Indy, Lama and Monaco, and
you know they call that the Triple Crown on.

Speaker 3 (34:00):
Right, and race Monico is more exciting in WECK form
than it is in F one form.

Speaker 5 (34:03):
We don't race Monaco, but I promise you the races
are more exciting than than Monico.

Speaker 6 (34:07):
Has been the last few years.

Speaker 5 (34:08):
But you know, to see a race at SPA and
you know the cars are, you know, bombing around for
six hours NonStop, so roughly four hours as long as
a as an F one race, that that's pretty incredible event.
And it is it is very special. You know, IMLA
is always a special event. Fuji by Rain and Qatar
and saw Paolo this year as well. So lots of

(34:30):
really cool destined obviously, you know, Circuit of the Americas
in Austin and so you've got all of You've got
all those great circuits and there will be more to come.
But I think, as I said earlier, what really makes
it fun to watch is the involvement of these great manufacturers.
It's true sports car racing. In many cases, you can
or will soon be able to buy a variant of

(34:51):
the WEC car for the road. It won't be a hybrid,
but you know, I know at least two manufacturers that
are going to offer the vehicles for sale.

Speaker 3 (35:00):
On a second they I don't understand exactly, but don't
they have like a more stock car entrant and then
Total Prototype and then.

Speaker 5 (35:09):
Yep, so there's more stock cars like the GT three class,
right so that's almost exactly what you can drive in
the road.

Speaker 2 (35:14):
So if you can buy the Mustang, if you get
the g T gives.

Speaker 5 (35:17):
You Farley gives you the nod. God, God, I love
Jim Farley'd love to get that car. The you know,
in the case of of Porsche, it's the g T
three R S, which is a tough get, but it's
a very special car. I mean it's a road car
with effectively DRS.

Speaker 6 (35:33):
That's pretty cool.

Speaker 5 (35:34):
And then you've got the l M H and l
M d H classes, which are the hypercar class.

Speaker 2 (35:40):
That's what you guys are in.

Speaker 6 (35:41):
That's what we're in.

Speaker 4 (35:42):
So how do you create value out.

Speaker 1 (35:45):
Of this admittedly obscure racing series for Americans?

Speaker 6 (35:50):
Is the key.

Speaker 5 (35:50):
It's it's got a good follow I mean, you know,
you got if you were to go to Lama, you
would come away with a very different appreciation of.

Speaker 2 (36:00):
Everybody says that.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
People yes, but that, but I mean no, I haven't everybody.

Speaker 4 (36:05):
I don't want to go. No, it's not spectator friendly.
It rains every year.

Speaker 5 (36:10):
It's holy your camp, let's be honest. Okay, Hannah is
not going to end up at Laman a tent. Okay,
like that's probably not the way you're going to experience it.
And the people who do that love it.

Speaker 6 (36:21):
But I but what that is not for me.

Speaker 5 (36:22):
What you What we do is we get like, you know,
really nice RVs. If you want to stand at State.

Speaker 3 (36:27):
I could see Hannah there in like an airstream like nice.

Speaker 1 (36:30):
It's we work that out then I will be happy
to intend. But the fact remains, though this is so
European and really Formula one has grown in the US.

Speaker 5 (36:41):
But it's taking because well two things. I think we'll
come back to that in a second. The way you
do it is through promotion. And so you know, why
do we have Brady brand on the side of our
car because you know we pick up you know, tens
of millions of impressions every race because you know Tom's
involved in it. You know it's Hurts involved in it. Well,

(37:01):
because it's great content. I mean it is really cool content.
You know, people walk through an airport and they see
one of our cars sitting there, like that's kind of
a cool thing to run into. They always attract a
giant crowd. You're creating great content, great interest that we
run promotions for the customers to gain access and go
to Lama. We had a bunch of them there this year.
That's a really neat thing. All of a sudden, You've
got a trip across the Atlantic to watch a race,
and I promise you everybody who goes to Lama comes

(37:23):
away with an incredible impression. Ask Lebron James what he
thought after he went last year. I won't spoil it,
but I promise you will get again.

Speaker 4 (37:30):
How long did he stay at the track?

Speaker 6 (37:32):
He was there for the entirety of the first day, so.

Speaker 5 (37:34):
Okayact and it was you know, Tom's been there for
the full weekend.

Speaker 6 (37:39):
It's a it's a grip.

Speaker 2 (37:40):
Were there. Were you there a couple weeks ago?

Speaker 5 (37:42):
I was, Yeah, we stayed for the whole time. You know,
being out at the end of the Mozon straight, you
know when the cars are under heavy breaking at that turn,
that right hand or at the end of one of
his canes and the brakes are glowing bright red and
yes it's drizzling out and you know you get a
cocktail on your hand at two in the morning. It's
not the worst thing in the world, no way of Stella.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
By the way, this reminds me, Tom, do you run
your own Instagram. No, well, I saw it on your Instagra.

Speaker 5 (38:07):
I have a public Instagram that we created for the team,
because there's a funny story about that. I have a
private Instagram. I've got like a whopping you know, one
hundred followers or something, and and I started getting all
these follower requests. Somebody figured out I think I had
been tagged in something, and so I got all these
follow requests and I get this notification from Instagram that
said your accounts under review. And so I'm like, oh,

(38:29):
the gift to give all this information, Give all the information.
And fifteen minutes later, like your account is permanently deleted,
and I'm like, what happened? They said you violated customer
or community standards and I was like, what does that mean?
They said, well, you're impersonating a public figure.

Speaker 2 (38:43):
What impersonating yourself?

Speaker 5 (38:45):
Yeah, I guess, And because in one city in England,
I'm a public figure, so and so I had to
delete all the requests and then we created the other account.

Speaker 3 (38:53):
But yeah, anyway, the city is Birmingham, by the ways,
who because you own a soccer team there.

Speaker 5 (39:00):
Yeah, yeah, our firm made an investment in a Nighthead
and I'm the chairman of the club. And that's a
fun thing. By the way, it's back the same analog
digital thing. It's kind of the ultimate form of analog entertainment.
It's why we, you know, got into sport, and cars
and racing are the same thing. But I listen, I
think that there's a lot of there's a lot of
things that draw people into this and make it interesting.

Speaker 6 (39:22):
And you asked about F one.

Speaker 5 (39:23):
Yes, Drive to Survive had an unbelievable impact on it.
But I was in a meeting, gosh, it was two
years ago now with an F one team principle. We
were talking about this exact topic and the rise of
F one, and it was following the Goodwood Festival of Speed,
where my son and I go every year, and I
told him he could attend the meeting because he wanted
to see this. You know, we get to go see

(39:44):
the whole facility. And he's sitting in the back there
and I said, don't say a word, and so we're
going through the meeting and then I said, well, I
think there's one other thing that led to rise in
popularity of F one. And I said, if it's okay,
I want to ask my son for his input. So
I turned to him and he looks at me and
he goes, is it okay for me to speak now?
I'm like, yes, it's gave you to speak now. And
I said, Jack, you know, how many do you watch

(40:05):
F one? He said every weekend watches qualifying watches the race.
I said, how many episodes of Drive to Survive you've seen?
He said zero? And I said, well, what got you
into it? And he sort of sheepishly said, you know
the game, the video game. And something occurred to me
and I'd heard him talk about this before. You know,
if you're a hockey fan, you can play street hockey
or football.

Speaker 6 (40:24):
Plan you can.

Speaker 5 (40:25):
Sidelot football or baseball. You can play whiffle ball or
you know, soccer. You just have anything round right racing.
It's very hard to make the connection as a fan
and the way that young people have become fans by
playing the sport. These games are so realistic that they can.
And I will tell you having had my son, and

(40:45):
you know, with me in a car and a track
in the right seat, he knows the track better than
I do, and I'm the one driving. He knows my
break points better. He knows when I should be on
the gas better than I can, because he's driven the
circuit let's say, one hundred times to my five, and
on a sim and even though his sim is relatively basic,
his his intuition for the track, even though he's not

(41:08):
been in the seat, is pretty incredible. That connection to
the sport is incredible. And I think what other race
series have lost out on is the inability to develop
a product that is that realistic. And they should because
gaming is not going anywhere, and it's a great way
to draw fans in. And as much as you say
you don't have time for another race series, we all do.
We all have more time to consume.

Speaker 6 (41:29):
You know, these types of media.

Speaker 5 (41:31):
And by the way, you know, with the rise of AI,
it's going to continue to create more and more time
quote unquote for people, which is why we'll look for
more experiential things to do. So, you know, I think,
you know, we're at the beginning stages of a continued,
long rise in the interest in sport broadly defined, or
at least I hope that's the case given some of
our investments.

Speaker 6 (41:49):
But you know, I think all.

Speaker 5 (41:51):
This stuff is fantastic to see young people engaged in
vehicles that are not the most modern, not the fast accelerating,
not the technological marvels that we get out of you know,
today's key EV makers. But you know, but have something
that's really pretty incredible.

Speaker 6 (42:09):
Is is great.

Speaker 1 (42:10):
I think I'm very curious you mentioned very briefly hybrids.
Obviously these cars racing are hybrid vehicles. And we've talked
a lot about how you're going into ices. As things
tend to move toward electric vehicles for commuting, where do
hybrids fall into that spectrum. I used to think they're

(42:35):
a bit of a band aid, a bridge towards evs.

Speaker 4 (42:37):
Now it seems like maybe they're here to stay.

Speaker 3 (42:39):
By we both spent the weekend driving hybrids or last
weekend I was in uh driving the new hybrid, Yeah,
and I was this weekend driving the Corvette Era, which.

Speaker 5 (42:53):
Yeah, that Corvette's amazing. That Porsche is incredible. There's lots
of other great hybrids. It's a difficult technolo you to master,
but the best manufacturers clearly are getting it right. I
think hybrids are here to stay because I think the
transition to evs is just to get all of the
rolling stock converted over. It's going to take a long time.
Is that where it's going. I do believe that that's

(43:15):
where we will end up. It's going to be complicated
by the fact that it's going to be hard to
get enough electricity available, you know, with the competing excess
demand coming not just from consumers and the growth there
and households, but also electric vehicles and other forms of
mobility AI and compute power. So you know, there's a
lot of reasons why the transition may be slower, and

(43:36):
to the extent that it is in fact slower, hybrids
play a crucial role there. They also offer a driving
experience that is not as abrupt as going into an
ev directly, so you know, for the average consumer, it's
an easier way for them to get into it. And look,
I mean from a performance perspective, you get a lot,
you get the you know, you still get many of

(43:57):
the attributes of an IC that we all love, right
the sound, the vibration, and you get the excess performance.
My personal view on all of that is, I think
we've kind of we've more or less reached the limits
of performance. Yes, cars will get faster both in acceleration
and top speed.

Speaker 6 (44:15):
They will, but who.

Speaker 3 (44:16):
Cares it doesn't really mean speed has become commoditized, right,
It doesn't matter if you can go zero to sixty
and two and a half seconds, because everyone can.

Speaker 5 (44:24):
And my tussle was, you know, one to nine, which
means that you when you're in an intersection, you can
go sixty before you hit the other crosswalk, right, Like,
you don't really need to go any faster than that.

Speaker 3 (44:34):
But it's not as much fun as going zero to
sixty and six seconds in something from the seventies and
the Bird.

Speaker 5 (44:40):
If you're well the t Bird, that's yeah, that's exciting
eleven seconds. But if you're rowing through the gears and
you want to get every shift right, and more importantly,
if you're under heavy breaking and you're getting your down
shifts right, like, that's a special feeling, and not everyone
cares about that. I suspect that people listening to this
probably you know, nodding their heads in a sent that's.

Speaker 6 (45:00):
Why we drive these old cars.

Speaker 5 (45:02):
And there's a whole plethora of old cars that I would,
you know, love to own and drive regularly. I don't
have the time to do it, but I just think
it'd be fantastic, And I don't think that's going away,
you know, So I think there's a spot for all
of this. And listen, it's not the worst thing in
the world for these old cars to be repurposed into
you know, and and restored into vehicles that are maintained.

(45:25):
And I say that because, like, you know, why do
we want to throw everything away? There's no reason for that.
You know, they could be something to bring great joy
and can be reimagined, re restored, what have you.

Speaker 3 (45:35):
I recently talked to at Greenwich concoor. I went to
a really cool showing and a bunch of the guys
there had c two corvettes and they all said, it's
like driving a truck. Like it's not a great driving experience.
So if someone could reimagine that.

Speaker 6 (45:52):
Vehicle that that would be pretty amazing.

Speaker 5 (45:54):
The one thing I'd say on the new evs is
they are actually a step stone to fully autonomous mobility.
Like that's really what they represent. And I know there's
you know, for a last year and a half, there's
been lots of naysayers and the tides turned a little
bit on that. There's been some positive articles recently, but like,
if you really doubt how close we are get in

(46:17):
a Tesla with the most updated beta version of the
self driving software, and tell me we're not close. It's
years away, not decades away, if not closer than that.
And the reason that ev is play an important role
is you really can't have an IC or a hybrid
that autonomously moves people. And when we get to full autonomy,

(46:38):
that is ecologically by far, the holy Gril, that's the
best place.

Speaker 3 (46:43):
It's in terms of safety, I mean safety to me,
that's the biggest thing because how many people die in
car accidents. You know, we talk about all the other
things that kill you, and car accidents are way up there,
especially top of the.

Speaker 6 (46:56):
List, especially for young people.

Speaker 5 (46:58):
And so you know, when we move that way, there's
lots of we spent some time and the lots of
economic advantages to get unlocked if we can. If we
can figure that out, AI will certainly hasten you know,
the arrival those things. But again that what does that do?
It frees up time to do other things, if your
commute time. Remember most people don't live in big urban
areas like we do. And and it probably drives yourself

(47:19):
to work because she's La, Yes, I did you know?
So we we don't and you know, but elsewhere in
the world people drive themselves to work, So it's lost time.
I think it's forty two minutes or fifty minutes a
day for the average American worker. You know, if you
are working in that time and you're productive, you know,
then you you can free up time elsewhere. Maybe every
Friday is off, or maybe Fridays every Friday is a
half day.

Speaker 6 (47:40):
Well, what are you going to do with that time?

Speaker 5 (47:41):
Well, maybe you're restoring an old vehicle yourself, or maybe
you're driving an older So I could.

Speaker 3 (47:45):
Sleep for fun, because I do drive an hour and
a half, yeah, back and forth in Westchester, and on
a lot of days, I'm so wiped out.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
I have a couple of little kids.

Speaker 3 (47:54):
I just want to sleep, and I still have to
stay awake and brave the traffic up the major DTA,
And it's that's that's what I would do.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
What is the biggest obstacle right now? You say we're close, Tom.
Is it a technology thing, is it a money thing?

Speaker 4 (48:09):
Is it a legal regulator?

Speaker 6 (48:11):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (48:11):
I think that it really depends on the regulatory environment
we have. I'd be foolish to say anything other than that.
There's no question that the technology is safer than humans today.
It's already achieved that, like it's not it's not really debatable.
The cases where there's an accident make all the headlines,
but we don't. You know, we don't make front page
news every time somebody does in a car the United States,

(48:31):
and it happens unfortunately, many many, many, many times per day.
And so you know, the cruises of the world, the
way moos of the world, the teslas of the world
have already done better than a human. They will continue
to do better than humans, and so we will have
safer vehicles. The big thing that's standing the way right
now is you know that getting the technology to the

(48:51):
point where it's really useful in that you know, those
those key edge cases and then you know, how do
you roll out that that rolling stuff to make it
available to move people around? So it's coming. You know,
it's a good thing. I don't think it's I don't
think we all need to be afraid of it.

Speaker 3 (49:06):
The charging infrastructure is my big problem. I mean, last
week I had a great time in this GMC hummer
last week and it has like four hundred miles of range,
but I got it down to zero and when I
was looking for charging stations, they were all like broken
or like no longer on anyway. I think the infrastructure

(49:27):
is what really needs to happen.

Speaker 6 (49:28):
Yeah, it's got to get better.

Speaker 2 (49:29):
Set.

Speaker 5 (49:30):
There's also you were you know, I think again we
come back to what will they actually be used for.
It's the moving people from point A to point B
on regular routes, so that's your commuting work. You're never
going to run out of charge if you have a
you know, think if you have a gas station in
your home, which is really what you have when you
own an EV and you install the charging hardware, so
you know, we'll get past that. The biggest hurdle, if

(49:51):
you will, to chart new charging technology is the is
the electricity infrastructure. It's not that companies aren't willing to
install it, they can't pull the power that they need.

Speaker 3 (50:09):
Let's talk about a little bit about cars that you like,
because I thought the Masters in Business that you did
was really inspirational because you tell your origin story and
you're not someone who was born on third base, right,
you had to work to get there, and you mentioned
the Corolla and you couldn't afford to get anything else.
But eventually you go to you know, credit Sueez, you

(50:31):
go to Goldman Sachs. You start your own shop and
now you have the financial wherewithal to pick up a
few of those things. And you know, it's like collecting art,
it's not so what have you got.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
That you like?

Speaker 3 (50:44):
And also do you do you buy them as an
investment or do you buy them because you just really
they speak to your heart.

Speaker 5 (50:51):
Now, I buy what I want to drive and own
for a long period of time, but I don't. I
haven't gone bananas and building out a collection, and I've
still my Holy Grail cars other than singers still on
my list because it's good motivation for me. It's just
the way that I maybe my brain works and what
causes me to be motivated. So you know what I
like to own an early seventies you know, Daytona Spider.

Speaker 6 (51:15):
Yeah, that's like way up the list.

Speaker 5 (51:18):
The car for me that was my Everyone kind of
had their car as a teenager, and I had one
car that was like, I thought was the greatest thing
ever ever ever. I just thought it was the most
amazing vehicle and it passed me walking home from soccer
practice one day in my hometown of Franklin, Massachusetts on

(51:38):
Lincoln Street, and it was a Kuontash and I couldn't
believe I saw it. And so there were two things
that I that I had always seen. One was the
sixty minute special on the Cuntash, which if you haven't watched,
you should watch. It was an incredible segment. I watched
it so much that the VHF tape like just wore out.
And the other was obviously the opening sequence and Cannonball

(52:02):
run right, which is just you know, like you see that,
You're like, how is that not the greatest thing ever.
I remember talking to my son about favorite cars and
he's got his favorites and I said, no, but the
Coontash is so special.

Speaker 6 (52:13):
And he's like, oh, Lamborghini.

Speaker 1 (52:14):
Dad.

Speaker 5 (52:14):
Really'm like yeah, And so I said, all right, Well,
we went to a car show and it was an
outdoor show and we were coming up. I said, okay,
there's five coon Tashes over there, and he's like where,
and I said over here, come.

Speaker 6 (52:24):
On, let's walk over.

Speaker 5 (52:25):
And we're walking over and he doesn't say anything for
like ten seconds of walking.

Speaker 6 (52:28):
He just looks at me.

Speaker 5 (52:28):
He goes, Okay, I get it, and I'm like yeah,
like it's like a spaceship sitting there right here. It is,
you know, you know, fifty plus years later and it
still looks so unbelievable. So that's one that would be
incredible to own, like a you know, early eighties.

Speaker 2 (52:42):
Oh you haven't got one.

Speaker 6 (52:43):
No, no, no, dude, there was a time.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
When those were going for like thirty grand.

Speaker 6 (52:46):
No no.

Speaker 5 (52:46):
I remember, like right after the financial crisis, really good examples.
We're just over one hundred grand, and I remember looking
at someone, I'm like, I really should buy this, Like
I've always want to own this car, and I don't
think it's ever going to be this price again. It
was a really by the way, bought a zillion things
to them and made more money than buying the car.

Speaker 3 (53:03):
But you were right, isn't that when you started your business,
was when I started my b So you were buying things.

Speaker 6 (53:08):
I was buying things. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (53:09):
I don't know if we didn't buy a lot of
things that had tenfold returns in this period of time.
But there's a lot of other cars out there. I mean,
I've got you know, there's some great examples.

Speaker 6 (53:18):
That I have today.

Speaker 5 (53:19):
I have a seven eighteen Spider RS that I just
got it was one of the first that came into
the US.

Speaker 6 (53:26):
Like, that's a really special car. Yes, it's a really Porsche.

Speaker 5 (53:29):
I think just hit the ball out of the park
on that one, because it's it's a great driver's car.
It's not the fastest car in the road, but man,
it's got to be one of the most fun. And
that size, it's a great size vehicle. It's not quite
as big as the new nine to elevens are. I
really love it.

Speaker 3 (53:46):
So Ferrari doesn't make a car anymore with a stick.
The Corvette doesn't come with a stick anymore, at least
as far as we know. The new nine to elevens
that Hannah drove right, none of those kinds.

Speaker 1 (53:58):
But I think it's I think a manu All gearbox
is coming on a higher variant.

Speaker 3 (54:02):
But why do you think these extra special.

Speaker 4 (54:05):
Vehicle not on the hybrid but on the nine nine
two two.

Speaker 2 (54:08):
Well, you know, I have.

Speaker 3 (54:10):
One of the things about the Corvette that I was
driving is it's so fast that I can barely keep
the car out of triple digits. I'm not sure if
that'd be a good excuse when I get pulled over,
but I just can't.

Speaker 2 (54:20):
If I had a stick, it.

Speaker 3 (54:22):
Would make it much easier to drive slower. You know,
why do you think these super luxury brands don't put out.

Speaker 6 (54:29):
I don't think there's the demand for it. I think
that's why.

Speaker 5 (54:31):
I mean, like there's just aren't as many people that
want that, And I think that's why we see the
older cars, you know, generate such interest. I mean, you
know you've ever driven like an early seventies Alpha Romeo,
Like those are.

Speaker 6 (54:44):
Not fast cars.

Speaker 5 (54:45):
Those are awesome to drive, like this sound, you know
the feel of the car. Those are great, great, great
cars to drive. You know, there are lots and lots
of examples of great cars with manual transmissions to drive,
and no other one's really inexpensive, you know, late eight Ease
Mazda are seven.

Speaker 3 (55:02):
I'm fascinated by the engine because it's rotary.

Speaker 5 (55:05):
Account that's a great No, I don't, but it's it's
on the list of things that like would be great.
This is the downside of being a New York City residence.
Like for like I got like, you know, one spot
in the garage for like, you know, something nice, And
it's stupid how much money you have to pay to
like have a protected place in your garage. Someday I
won't live in New York and I'll have more cars.

(55:27):
But you know, I think the you know, then when
the ones you do buy for collection, they got you
because you're in New York and it's too expensive. But
I think, you know, it's sort of an endless list
of what would be amazing to own. There just are
so many cars. And I actually think that the list
of vehicles that that could be reimagined where you have

(55:47):
all the styling and aesthetics of something old, but with
the conveniences of.

Speaker 6 (55:52):
Of a of a more modern car.

Speaker 5 (55:54):
What I mean by conveniences are like, you don't have
to worry about it breaking down right, it'll run right.

Speaker 2 (55:59):
As traction control.

Speaker 6 (56:01):
Yeah, as long as you can turn it off. I
think those are great.

Speaker 3 (56:03):
But do you think that's a long list. I mean
I could think of a few. Obviously, the C two
Corvette is one that I think of, you know, the
Mustang you're already doing.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
I don't think there are really that many.

Speaker 5 (56:15):
Oh I could go through it. I mean I think
you could do. I'd love to see a Lamborghini that
was more that was more reliable, user friendly.

Speaker 6 (56:24):
I can't imagine little.

Speaker 3 (56:24):
I've never been into kuntash, but I bet you it's
hard to get in and out and dry.

Speaker 5 (56:27):
Yeah, and the wheel well's not ideal, but it's like,
that's a great one that could be really really special
because imagine if it were carbon monocoque with carbon body, right,
it just be and and take that motor and modern technology.
You talk about something with eight hundred horsepower that weighs
hundreds of pounds less. That's going to be a just
absolutely ridiculous car. And you know, you do bigger rims

(56:50):
and smaller aspect ratio tires and think there's a lot
that could be done there.

Speaker 6 (56:56):
And I think the list is a mile long.

Speaker 3 (56:58):
Hannah, what would you do if you could start, Hannah
Elliott reimagining cars?

Speaker 1 (57:02):
What would you I honestly wouldn't you'd keep in mind,
I'm really.

Speaker 4 (57:06):
I'm really, I'm honestly.

Speaker 1 (57:07):
I mean it's fine, you know, I'm not certainly not
casting judgment, but I honestly wouldn't. I it doesn't appeal
to me on a personal level. It's just not my thing.

Speaker 5 (57:16):
Yeah, yeah, it's yeah, And I totally get that too,
Like I have a Yeah, I there's there's like old
slate sixties Shelby Mustangs. You know I've got I've got
one that's that's been modernized, and ones that haven't are
I think just as every bit as fun.

Speaker 6 (57:37):
You know. Imagine like an old you know one.

Speaker 5 (57:39):
I'll give you an example of a car that i'd
like done that I would definitely not want to have,
like a four to twenty seven cover.

Speaker 6 (57:44):
I just want the original.

Speaker 1 (57:45):
Yeah to me too, you know things we all see
cars on golf courses that have been over restored that
are just past the point they're actually better now than
they ever were when they came out of the factory.
And to me, that's that I'm not interested in in
a hypothetical perfection that did not exist at the time,

(58:09):
you know.

Speaker 3 (58:09):
So I just want so I mean, I'm with you
kind of on this because I I feel like there
are a lot of old cars that are very unsafe
to drive. There's a lot of old cars that are
very slow, like even.

Speaker 7 (58:25):
Say than they are now, And like I would love
to get like an old Jag, you know, but I
know it's going to break down every week, and I
know it's gonna be super slow and heavy, But I
want one that's I love the design.

Speaker 2 (58:40):
I love the interior.

Speaker 3 (58:41):
For example, I want so desperately that Bentley that Matt
Farra got right.

Speaker 2 (58:45):
I've wanted for so long. I've wanted a Bentley.

Speaker 3 (58:48):
But every time I watch a YouTube video about someone
who buys one for thirty thousand dollars, they talk about
how they've put one hundred grand into it already and
they still can't keep it running. I wish they could
do something like, you know, this is.

Speaker 5 (58:59):
The great thing, like the case can be made for
both and and you know, Hannah will say she loves that.
You know, when you get behind the wheel of an
old card doesn't track perfectly.

Speaker 6 (59:07):
Straight, have to pay total attention.

Speaker 5 (59:10):
And that's all right, right, that's really cool. And I
get it equally. I think when you take a car
that's restored and it's done really well, and you can't
quite like, you know, when I drive my Singer, people
don't really know what it is, particularly the DLS.

Speaker 6 (59:27):
They just think it's an old Porsche with a cool
paint job.

Speaker 5 (59:30):
They don't really you know, like why it's a visible
carbon car that's kind of cool. They don't really get
that it is completely different as an F one developed.

Speaker 3 (59:39):
That's something that's that is completely different, right, that's.

Speaker 6 (59:42):
Not, but it doesn't look like it.

Speaker 5 (59:44):
And I'll say you driving it doesn't feel like a
brand new modern car. It bears no resemblance to you know,
like a like my you know, sevent eighteen Spider. Like
they're very very very different driving experiences, both awesome in
their own way, but very different. And I think that's
what I find alluring is that you can, you know,

(01:00:04):
done right, you can create something that's really pretty special.

Speaker 3 (01:00:07):
That was super nice of him to come and spend
some time with us. He's got so much on the go,
you know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
Yeah, it's unbelievable, and he's so grounded and calm.

Speaker 4 (01:00:16):
Yeah, I'm surprised.

Speaker 3 (01:00:17):
Really interesting kind of crossover between cars as a hobby
and cars as an investment. And obviously the businesses are
you know, he wants to make money on them, but
what cool business is to be in.

Speaker 4 (01:00:29):
Yeah, it's obvious. He's like he's a car guy.

Speaker 3 (01:00:31):
He did it right, All right, very cool. That's all
we've got for today.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
What have you got?

Speaker 3 (01:00:36):
Have you got anything on in terms of are you
driving something special? I really, by the way, desperately now
want to drive that Z six because I had such
a good time in the E ray that now and
my wife was like, we need to get one of these.

Speaker 4 (01:00:50):
Meet in the middle, start driving toward each other.

Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
And what did you finally think of the Z six?

Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
It revs Hi right, Yes, it's it's a great car.
You know, it's like everything we said last week. I
definitely think it's a bit lurchy. It's not a smooth beast.
And I say that having come out of a nine
to eleven, so you know, that's that is what I
drove immediately before it. The interior is really a thing,

(01:01:20):
you know, I don't know, it's like it doesn't I'm
not bothered by the interior configuration. It makes me feel something.
I just don't know what. It makes me feel.

Speaker 3 (01:01:30):
It makes me feel like I'm a fighter pilot who's
on an episode of Miami Vice. Yeah, it's you're in
a cocoon. And anyhow, I love also that the car
is relatively accessible. So, for instance, when we're talking about Ferraris,
you spend time in all these you know, supercars.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
I'm never gonna get in any of those, but yes
you will.

Speaker 3 (01:01:49):
But a lot of people can get into Quarvette Corvette.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
Yeah, for sure, which is which is really sweet.

Speaker 3 (01:01:54):
All Right, I'm I'm gonna be driving an SL sixty
three next week.

Speaker 4 (01:01:58):
That'll be fun, so excited. That'll be great for that.

Speaker 3 (01:02:01):
But and so I've driven a series of these kind
of roadsters or convertibles. I had the Z four, now
I was in the convertible C eight, and then I'll
be in the SL sixty three, and it'll be an
interesting comparison.

Speaker 4 (01:02:16):
That's great.

Speaker 1 (01:02:16):
I think I have a Volvo drive coming up, may
have a Rivian coming up. I've got a couple things
I kind of need to check. It's like I'm gonna
have a week or two with nothing and then a
staccato succession of new things.

Speaker 3 (01:02:30):
So all right, well then we have enough to talk
about for next week.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
Yes, I'm Matt Miller

Speaker 4 (01:02:35):
I'm Hannah Elliott, and this is Bloomberg