James Vowles of Williams F1; Plus, a 1985 Camargue and Tinted Windows

On this episode, Hannah and Matt speak with Williams F1 team principal James Vowles on the outlook and evolution of the sport. Plus, they discuss their opinions on tinted windows and Hannah's trip to a Bring a Trailer sale for a 1985 Camargue. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. I'm Matt Miller and
I'm Hannah Elliott, and this is Hot Pursuit. Do you
want to know what happened this morning? On my way

(00:22):
to the office or before, as I was trying to
leave for the office, Willow locked us out of the car.
I was going to drive to work today with the
keys in the car and also the clicker to open
the gate that lets the car out. So this morning
was a scramble of literally removing the gate box from
the wall so we could get into the controls and

(00:44):
manually open our gate.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
No, I know.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
And it's so cute because you can't get mad at
her because her little face is so cute, and she's
done this once before, and the one time she locked
the car before she was inside it, which was also
panic inducing because we didn't want her to overheat.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
But why didn't you just grab a hanger. It's not
a new car, right.

Speaker 1 (01:05):
Well, it's at twenty fourteen. It's the it's the twenty
fourteen Turbo, so it is.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
Rather new, so hard to down the window.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
Although, yeah, the other time this happened, it was in
the parking lot of a home depot and you know
how a lot of nice guys sort of hang out
in the parking lot trying to get work. Well, they
came over right away and we're so helpful, and they
had lots of hangers and yeah, they I mean they
saw the situation because it was a really hot California
day and we actually did in the end shimmy a

(01:35):
hanger in, but I think probably that wasn't great for
the car. But we had to get our dog out. Well. Yeah,
I mean this time wasn't as dar but I was
kind of annoyed because I wanted to get to the
office early and you know, get everything going before I
was going to talk to you and James, and yeah,
best laid plans. So I left. Magnus was still there
trying to figure out how to get the car open.
I was just like, I'll take the other one, is it.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
I don't know if it's clear to everyone. Willow is
a German Shepherd.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
Willow is a dog, yes, but a German.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
Shepherd is I don't have like a Pekinese in your
nine to eleven. You have a German Shepherd in the
nine to eleven.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yes, and she loves it. She loves wedging her little
self in the backseat. It's actually the perfect size for her.
It's like a little cubby hole, and she loves wedging
herself back there. And we know exactly what happened, which
was last night, Magnus and I got home at exactly
the same time, and we were going to I jumped
out really quick, and he jumped out because we were
excited to see each other and we were going to

(02:31):
get in the same car and then go off to dinner,
and so it was a little distracting, and he left
the key in the car, and then Willow jumped out,
and when she jumped out, she hit lock on the
center console. And then Magnus, you know, closed the door
to give me a kiss and say hi, and we
got in the other car and drove away and didn't
even think anything of it. I see, no, she wasn't

(02:54):
stuck this time. She was on her way out, and
she we think, hit lock, and then, you know.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
By the way, I feel like there's a market for so.
My dog, Steve, one hundred and thirty pound rottweiler, also
loved to ride in the back of nine to eleven,
and the big problem was in the rear seat the
two recesses, the two butt spaces, yes, you know, and
then there's a middle there's a center bump that comes up.

(03:22):
So what I would do is I would put two
pretty solid pillows in each well reset to even it out.
But I was always thinking there's a market for a
better way to take your dog in a nine to eleven,
which all you need to do is sell a pre
shaped foam insert you know that goes in not only
the recesses of the seat but the footwell. Yes, and

(03:45):
I don't know why no one's developed that yet.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
I don't know. I mean, did you ever you know
you can sort of flatten out the seats and make
it into a ledge. Yeah, did you ever do that?
Because it's no idea.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
And also you can put the seat down and make
it into a tall ledge, but that's then too leaving
too little room for the German shepherd or rotweiler, And
you know.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
It does take a minute for them to get comfortable,
Like she does the funny cartoon thing where she turns
around three times and it lays down. It's so cute.
But once she's wedged in, she's in and she's really happy.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
Dogs are the best.

Speaker 1 (04:22):
Dogs are the best.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
Yeah, all right, so.

Speaker 1 (04:27):
Okay we have We've got James joining us, James Vowels
of William's Racing.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
Do you know it's hilarious so or maybe not hilarious
but maybe ironic. Is that last week when we were
doing this, I said, Formula one, not only is it
more boring than Moto GP, but also it's different in
that you've got the goat, Lewis Hamilton driving the most

(04:57):
prominent brand Ferrari and then not winning. Everyone is beating him.
And then I said, Moto GP, which is far more exciting,
is different because Mark Marquez, who's arguably the goat, is
riding the most prominent brand Ducatti and killing it. But
the funny thing is, as soon as I said that
and the podcast goes out, I went to a poker

(05:18):
game and they had the sprint race on because it
happened Friday night, yes, and Hamilton won the Sprint and
everybody was like so excited, and it was like goosebump
inducing and people were like, oh my god, if Hamilton
can win in the Ferrari, if he can just podium
like multiple times this season, it's gonna be amazing. Like
a story for the sport for the ages, yes, you know,

(05:40):
and like legitimately exciting. I couldn't pay attention. I lost
all my money at least all the chips. So I
was so excited. And then on the other hand, Moto
GP has been dead boring this year because Marquez wins
by a country mile every sprint and every race he's in,
and nobody besides his brother is even close to him,

(06:04):
and it's like child's play. So then I just was
dead wrong on last week's episode, and we got so
many viewers, our listeners who wrote in and we're like.

Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yes, dude, Rick in Phoenix, Yeah, you're saying off on this.
I mean, well one of them. I remember seeing a
Rick from Phoenix saying you're not actually crazy. He I mean,
I think he was kind of half and half, but
I kind of love that you and it happened to
me too. After I I didn't watch this sprint race,
but I of course saw the results and I was like,

(06:33):
oh no, our timing is way off because it but
we did what we said the couple days before that
race was accurate. If Hamilton could just get up there,
it would be so exciting, so many people would follow along.
I mean it's just like, you know, George Foreman just
passed away, and it's it would be like, you know,

(06:55):
a heavyweight fighter coming back from years of obscurity to
clinched the title again, and we all kind of want
to see that, and it would be great for the sport.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
I mean as someone who doesn't care much about the sport.
I mean I I I loved F one when I
was a kid, and I at some point started watching
motorcycles instead. But I don't I'm not a huge Lewis
Hamilton fan, and I don't even I loved Ferrari when
I was a kid because I was a kid, right
and it was red and Shumie was driving it. But

(07:26):
even I like, it's all I could talk about on Saturday,
just waiting for the race on Sunday and was complete,
Yeah whoops, but I just now it's super fascinating. Now
I'm like setting my alarm for any f one news.
And by the way, Rick Rick and Phoenix also he

(07:49):
wrote in and said mothballing a car doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 1 (07:53):
Yes, we agree with the erect.

Speaker 2 (07:56):
Yeah, he made a point that's very valid, especially for
us at Blomberg because we follow you know, other investment
asset classes and you're you're not going to make more
money than you would just putting it into a fund.
Mothballing like you know, a Mercedes SL six hundred or whatever.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yes. Yes, And I'll even give a little plug for
a story of mine that came out today where I
spoke with Rob Meyers, the head of RM Auctions, and
during our conversation, which was edited at length to remove
quite a bit of profanity, he said I was asking
him about the age old question about do you put
a reserve on a car? Not a reserve on a car,
and he basically was saying these like the mistakes people

(08:39):
make when they buy a car is it's if they're speculating.
He said what we always say, which is, if you
like it and you can afford it, you should buy it.
But don't buy it as some investment piece.

Speaker 2 (08:52):
For sure.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
I mean this is this is like the real I
think voice of wisdom.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
But the so the idea of a seller putting a
reserve on the car or not, I think that debate
itself is fascinating and me too. I've been thinking a
lot about selling vehicles lately. I was thinking, like we
got to call Steve Sirio and get him on yes,
because this is what you know he's done for. I

(09:17):
have regretted almost every single vehicle I've ever sold, you know,
because in a sense, because I missed the vehicle and
even even some bikes that I've sold that I thought
I don't really like this anymore. I loved it. I
was enamored of it, you know, I spent six months
configuring it or whatever. Then I bought it, and even

(09:38):
those I sort of wish I still had.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
You know, Yeah, I mean I I totally get it.
I this year, I am trying, you know, it's the
Year of the Snake, so I'm trying to like shed
a bunch of things. And Magnus and I both are like,
this is a year of transition and we're shetting things
and we're going to do different things. And so yeah,

(10:02):
I can see the value in selling. But I should
also admit to you that this weekend we drove like
two hours to go look at a camarg down in
southern California that we saw and bring a trailer, and
yesterday the auction closed and we did not buy it
because because we're trying to not buy things right now, like,

(10:22):
we don't have any we don't need to buy yet
another rolls raise, but we did. We did spend a
Sunday to go down and look at it and kick tires.

Speaker 2 (10:30):
Taken out of context, Hanna that to comment that I
know it's really it's not we don't need to buy
another rules.

Speaker 1 (10:36):
These are not expensive cars. This car sold for thirty
eight thousand dollars in the end, which I watched every
last bid on that thing yesterday at the office. I
shouldn't out myself. I was also working. This was research,
but I did see it sold for thirty eight thousand,
which is a very good deal for a camarg Right now.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
That does yeah, No, I've looked at them as well.
I've I've followed Camargas.

Speaker 1 (10:59):
And for them and that, Yes, this one was white.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
Usually around fifty, right.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
They're usually if you can get one for fifty, that's
pretty good. I've I think, you know, if you can
get one from for thirty, that's great. Eighty might be
the top end. I've seen some really pristine ones for eighty.
This one in particular had an aftermarket sun roof which
wasn't great, and also a vinyl top which wasn't great.
It was the initial owner was being Crosby, and the

(11:27):
guy who the guy who showed us the car who
is the owner now is Bing Crosby's grandson who also
goes by bing or Bo Yeah, Bingo, I'm not I'm
unclear depending on the email.

Speaker 2 (11:39):
But yeah, that's cool.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yeah, Yeah, I'm with you though, Like it's hard to
sell things, but also I think it's kind of a
good It's it can be good. It can be cleansing
to purge and move on. Yeah, I mean other things.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
Well, we talk about buying stuff all the time.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
Right, yes, and the thrill of the chase.

Speaker 2 (12:01):
We did talk about one sale, Phil's Mercedes sale on
bring a Trailer, but we don't usually talk about selling
our own stuff. And I think you know, you have
to write you're not just shedding your skin for the
hell of it. You want to do other stuff with
those funds, right, And I, for example, I miss dearly

(12:23):
my twenty fourteen, nine to eleven career s, but I
used that money at least partially to buy my house.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
Yes, so totally can get that makes total sense.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
And like my buddy Ted here at Bloomberg, Ted had
a really cool one of those old Volvos like the
super hot like curvy, you know, like no like nineteen salties.
Oh oh oh okay, I want to say, p eighteen hundred,
I don't.

Speaker 1 (12:52):
Oh cool.

Speaker 2 (12:53):
Yeah, well it was awesome, but then when he had kids,
he like sold it for a family wagon, which you
know he didn't prefer the new car he bought. But
you have different stages in life.

Speaker 1 (13:04):
And completely I totally agree, and like you know, even
Magnus he hates to sell cars, but every now and
then you do. But the thing is, like sometimes it
becomes one of those things where if you sell one car,
you might be able to buy like three other different
things you know that serve your life better in this
stage than what you are selling.

Speaker 2 (13:25):
Right, Or a fund like preschool you know, or yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:29):
I guess sure. I mean, well that's not a high priority,
but whatever, or.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
Feed yourself, like you know, there there are times when
you just you had the money, then you don't have
the money now and you need to bridge that gap.
So it would be cool to talk to somebody about
selling stuff, like the emotional impact of it, the best
way to do it, you know, do you go? I
guess it depends on the product. But a lot of

(13:55):
people for motorcycles are telling me Facebook Marketplace. I never
would have thought. I never thought. But my buddy, one
of the producers on Bloomberg TV, he buys themselves motorcycles
all the time, and he always uses Facebook Marketplace. I
didn't even you know what.

Speaker 1 (14:11):
I have girlfriends who use that to get really cool
pieces of furniture, and I don't. I haven't been on
Facebook in literally years, but I do keep hearing that
Facebook Marketplace actually as these really killer deals and really
interesting things.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
So maybe, and also apparently it's much better communication than
the other places for cars, you know, Auto Trader, I guess, eBay.

Speaker 1 (14:37):
Sure, even Craigslist still.

Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yeah, sure, but it's also not easy hemmings. I love
to search, but it's not easy to have like a
real time conversation with buyer and seller, whereas on Facebook Marketplace. Yes,
I haven't gone on Facebook in years either, Apparently it's
super easy to connect there. We got some other really
cool emails, and I noticed a lot of the emails

(15:01):
we get lately are centered on the on Harley Davidson.
Have you noticed that for.

Speaker 1 (15:04):
A yes, And I admit I am quite surprised. I
don't know if I can support it because personally, I
start to I start to drop off after the first
few minutes.

Speaker 2 (15:19):
It's just interesting that we as podcast. Yeah, you know,
I sometimes have mentioned motorcycles in passing, and obviously it's
important to me in my own personal life. But yes,
people who listen to this Car's podcast right in I'm
gonna say fifty percent of the emails.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
We got in the last few weeks fifth, well, okay,
the last week. The last week, I would say fifty,
not fifty overall. The overall we have I'm looking down,
you know, We've got stuff on range Rover, Hannah's digs, Chicken,
there's a Chicken, tax, French Cars, Cayenne, Corvette, I'm looking

(15:54):
wagon race Coontosh.

Speaker 2 (15:56):
Okay, but uh Jonathan big fan of Hot Shooting Quick
Harley thought. Don Vollum writes in about White Harley's Yeah
that was great.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
That was a great one. Thank you. And Johnson a
photo too, which was really good.

Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, And so, uh.

Speaker 1 (16:12):
So what's your point here.

Speaker 2 (16:13):
I just it's just that people care, and I think
it's interesting, and I think it's because it's not really
about other motorcycles, right, It's I think it's because of
the value of the brand, people that care specifically.

Speaker 1 (16:27):
Yeah mm hmmmmmmm. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
Also, I was going, I was this close to pulling
the trigger on a Harley Davidson Fat Bob in LA.
And I love something that I come.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
Out, come pick it up, and then ride it back.

Speaker 2 (16:41):
I would know, I definitely would love to do that.
And I was like, I was, I was ready to sign, basically,
and then I learned something that I think is pretty shocking.
So California obviously has its own emissions rules right, and
a lot of car makers and motorcycle produce will put

(17:02):
special parts on a California destined vehicle. For example, in
motorcycles there's I think a charcoal canister that's an additional okay,
you know, and whatever. You can just take those off
if you don't like it. I don't think it affects
at all the performance or even the sound of the vehicle,
so there's no reason to care. But I thought cool,

(17:23):
I found the best price on a fat Bob in.

Speaker 3 (17:28):
La.

Speaker 2 (17:28):
It's like they stopped making them for the US market
in twenty twenty three, but this one was still new.
I guess I've been sitting there.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
No, I will go, I will go take photos for
you if you.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
Need well, thank you very place called San Marcos. I
don't know where that is, but.

Speaker 1 (17:41):
That's funny, funny.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
So anyway, I'm about to pull the trigger. And then
I'm talking to people that work for Harley Davidson and
they said, by the way, just so you know, this
is a California vehicle. That means if you want to
make any changes like new cams or putting a tune
on it, it will no longer be warranty eligible. Like

(18:05):
that kills the warranty. Even if I am bringing it
to a state New York that doesn't have the same
emissions rules. And you know here there's as long as
you're using their own brand Scream and Eagle parts, you
can do anything to it and still and as long
as you have a hardly certified technician, it's fine. You
can change the cam, you can put change the exhaust,

(18:27):
you can put a tune on it, you can even
you know, put a bigger motor in. It still maintains
the same warranty. But if it was a California vehicle,
it does not.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
I didn't know that, yeah, darn it.

Speaker 2 (18:43):
So back to the drawing bad.

Speaker 1 (18:44):
So back to the drawing board. Can I ask you
something that is a little more car related that I
was thinking about today, And this is on the subject though,
of acquiring things. What is your feeling on tented windows?
I'm cars.

Speaker 2 (18:58):
I don't understand why police officers don't pull over people
who have overly tinted windows.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
So you think it's you think it's a criminal offense.

Speaker 2 (19:06):
It's just look. I understand that maybe you like the look,
and probably more importantly, if you live in a very
sunny area, you want to keep the heat out of
the vehicle.

Speaker 1 (19:17):
That's always the reasoning. Yeah, but often.

Speaker 2 (19:20):
That's not the real reason people do it. And it
and the and the and that uh goes hand in
hand with the real problem. If you're a police officer
and you pull over somebody in a vehicle that's so
tinted you can't see, you're effectively putting your life at risk.
You can't just go up to the window yourself, because
there's a possibility, I mean, where are we We're not

(19:40):
in Germany, right, We're in America. There's a very high
possibility that the driver has a firearm in the car.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
Yeah, so you're saying it actually escalates things.

Speaker 2 (19:50):
Instantly Not only is it a danger to law enforcement officers,
which you may feel one way or the other about them,
but it escalates the cost to society because a smart
cop is gonna then call back up and it's gonna
take them a lot longer, and so it's gonna be
more personnel are needed, more equipment is needed, more traffic

(20:14):
is caused. You know, it's like just bad, bad, bad.
Also that you can look cool in your I mean
I drive a Dodge Challenger right, Most people on the
Challenger for them are tinting their windows as like the
first thing they do.

Speaker 1 (20:26):
Yeah, all right, so.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
Okay we have.

Speaker 1 (20:39):
We've got James joining us. James Bowels of Williams Racing.
Thanks for joining us, James. Where are you at this moment?
I have to assume you're not in Japan yet.

Speaker 3 (20:49):
No, no ever appreciate it looks like I'm in a
smaller room. No, I'm still back here in the UK now.
So we flew back from Shanghai, got back here late Monday,
and then really this week and this is what I'd
love about our business. We're just trawling through every little
bit that we can from the last two weeks to
understand what more performance we can find before we go

(21:11):
to Japan in just a few days time, so probably
really on a flight in about a week from now,
so that's seven days in front of us.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
By the way, that's interesting. I wonder, I wonder how
much of that you do at home and how much
of that do you do when you're on site at
the track, like try and eke out the last few
tenths or I guess a few tents would be amazing,
but eke out a tenth? Do you do that on
the track?

Speaker 3 (21:36):
Yes, So both is the answer to that. So if
I give you a description in this period of time
what we're trying to do, not to every race, I
think that's now impossible with a cost cap, but certainly
every few races is turn up with performance on the car.
And that can be a new bodywork, new floor, a
new front wing, new rear wing. It can be an

(21:57):
evolution of what you've done in different areas mentally, and
that doesn't happen overnight. That work normally is kicked off
five six weeks beforehand, and it's a delivery of performance
and sort of a heart breath across the season. So
that's number one. Number two is you have a package
and it has certain elements where I'd call them low
hanging fruit, but we can see where there is more

(22:18):
performance delivery, either in the data or from driver comments
or some combination thereof. And what you're trying to do
in that period between the races, and it could just
be back to back races in a few days, is
what can we do to fundamentally extract more from it.
It can be a set up item, tuning a different
way of operating the car, different way of operating the times.
So that's what I would call number two. Every time

(22:38):
you can see we're going into shorter and shorter timeframes.
And then the third is you're on event and running
across Friday F one FP two and a normal race weekend,
and what you're trying there is a series of normal
experiments that you've evaluated in a theoretical land in simulation land,
and that can be a full driver in simulator or
in a theoretical model land, and you're trying to evolve

(23:01):
the car based on the circuit, the grip, the wind conditions,
and what you're expecting across the weekend to eke out
every mither second if you like, of performance and that
can happen because we have the factory working twenty four
to seven in conjunction with us, and for example, as
soon as we start running in FP one, there's a
driver back in the UK, doesn't matter what time of
night it is they're driving, and our driver and loop

(23:22):
similar to mimicking the work we're doing trackside to effectively
then start adding performance in tandem. So all of the above.

Speaker 1 (23:31):
So, James, how are you feeling about the car this year?
Obviously we're really early in the season. Can you just
give us some general thoughts about how the car is.

Speaker 2 (23:40):
It's not too light.

Speaker 3 (23:41):
Right, well, it's it's just the right amount. It's like
godilocks you. I want it too light and you wanted
it too heavy. But how do I feel about the car?
It's an evolution of last year's but it's a strong
evolution of last year is it just tells you what
we have more left in the package from twenty twenty four.

(24:01):
It's got a lot of the work I've been doing
with the team across the last few years is just
getting rid of what I kill some horrible characteristics that
are just baked into the fundamentals of the car. The
way that you do well in a championship is not
having one or two events where you absolutely shine and
twenty two where you're just struggling. You have twenty four

(24:21):
events where you can get the car into the right
performance window and perform at that track. And I know
that sounds abundantly obvious, but it's a very different philosophy
from perhaps where we were a few years ago, and
it's really important to point that out. So if I
had to describe a Williams of old really quick in
a straight line, really hard to get past as the
result of that, but if you go to a circuit

(24:43):
with lots of corners on it, it doesn't really play
to our strengths. And as you imagine, most tracks have
a lot of corners on them. So this really has
been about evolving the package such that we can go
to every single track and be fast, whether it's warm, cold, raining, windy,
whatever it may be. And that's really the direction of travel.
And where I feel is that we've made good strides

(25:04):
in that. We've been in Bahrain where it was wet
and cold unusually and we were quick. We went to Melbourne,
which was again a combination of really really warm on
Friday and wet. On Sunday we performed. We get to China,
which is a very different type of track, characteristic and
not as strong, but still able to fight for points

(25:25):
in that weekend. In the end, we have to acknowledge
we were fortunate that others were perhaps pushing the regulations
far too much and we moved up the grid. But
the main thing is that we didn't jump back in
relative competitiveness. There's a few other items that didn't go
our way in the race.

Speaker 1 (25:40):
This season has so many rookies on the grid. I
think it seems like the most that we've seen for
at least ten years, if not more. Does that change
the dynamic of the season and racing dynamics with all
of these new drivers.

Speaker 3 (25:55):
Yeah, it definitely does. I mean what it does is
it kind of plays to our advantage. Fortunate to have
two world class drivers in the team. Carlos is the
last individual in Williams that has won a race, and
he proved that relative to the benchmarks, which is Landover,
Stappa and Charles, he's able to fight toe to toe
with all of them, and that's an important statement to make.

(26:19):
For sure, we have work on our side to make
sure he's comfortable in the car and the adaptation rates there,
but I still have two world class tivers. In the
case of Alex you can see he's just absolutely on
fire pitatively not literally this year, and Carlos will be
there in Japan. I have no doubt that Carlos will
be right on the money with him as well. At
the same time, compared to other teams where there's a

(26:40):
large learning cycle which isn't one or two races as
it would be for Carlos, it could be ten or
even twenty four races because that from many of them,
they haven't seen the track ever before, and at some
points they'll they'll seed expectation. I think if we look
at Antonelli didn't quite do the job in qualifying in Australia,
but absolutely came through in the race, built up and
did a better job in Shanghai, and so that's positive

(27:03):
and they're in the positive direction, and there was a
butt to it. There will be a point where they
make a fairly large error and that resets the expectation
and moves them back on the grid. And that shouldn't
be the case with us. We should be able to
pick up all the points, all the time with two
drivers that are always there on the leading edge, so
it plays to advantage. But on a personal note, I'm
pleased we have ten rookies, not quite ten, but a

(27:25):
number of rookies on the grid because I think it
is vitally important for our sport to prove that we
have a good ladder of success on the way through
and individuals who deserve to be a part of our
sport but are absolutely pushing us every day to reevaluate
what good looks like.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
You know, we had Claudio Domenicali on this podcast last year,
so he was talking to us about Moto GP versus Ferrari,
and one of the things that he said, and this
is something that a lot of people, I'm sure ask
you as well, is in Formula one, the arrow in

(28:02):
the car maybe is a bigger percentage of a winning
formula than the pilot, whereas in Motor GP, you know,
the pilot makes up maybe a bigger part of that percentage.
Not that either one is unimportant, but how do you
think about that mix?

Speaker 3 (28:18):
So if Carlos and Alex were on the call with me,
I'm fairly sure they'd be pushing me to say it's
mostly driver. He's my sort of really simplified view of it.
Between the best car to the worst car on the
grid is probably a second now, and between the best
driver to the worst driver is probably less than that.
Let's call it six seven tenths, because there is still

(28:40):
a gap between what good and what bad looks like.
But by the way that's shrinking. A few years ago
that maybe even six tents will be an exaggeration. Maybe
it's half a second now. A few years ago that
used to be one and a half seconds because we
had a much larger spread of talent on the grid.
So both the cars are coming together. But I also think,
for one, we really do have the twenty best drivers
in the world, and so the gap between them that's

(29:00):
coming together as well. So on just an equitable basis,
it is, roughly speaking, that the driver can have as
much impact as the car, just using a really noddy
way of doing it. But that's not quite a true story,
and that's sort of what we've demonstrated with Carlos this year.
Carlos knows and he's frustrated he's not being the benchmark
for the team, but when he's not, he's actively helping

(29:22):
set the car, with the car of direction, with the
team in the direction of travel, which are short, medium
and long term goals. You can't do it all of
it overnight, and in the case of Australia, was helping
us do strategy as well. And the reason why I
bring that up is because an individual isn't just what
they're doing with the pedals and steering will, It is
how they're leading the team from the inside in terms
of these are what we have to do to become

(29:43):
world championship material and so the lap time model doesn't
really factor that into account. But the difference between what
I call a leader and Alex and Carlos I have
an example of that is Alex has been in the
factory all day to day doing a twelve hour shift.
Carlos was on various team calls with our error team
and other teams today for about three hours. That isn't

(30:04):
driving the car that's driving our future success for twenty
six That's hard to bring into account. So I think
fifty to fifty is are an easy way of describing it,
But what I'm really describing as a good driver can
bring so much more than just the ranking of performance.

Speaker 1 (30:19):
I'm really curious to get your take about how long
ideally would a driver want or need to get used
to a car.

Speaker 3 (30:30):
Yeah, definitely, So it depends on how what problems they're
experiencing and where they are. So I'll give a little
bit more color to what I mean by that. If
what we can do is use there's probably this is
an exaggeration, but there's probably an infinite number of setup
tools we have in the car. We can change the
front and rear ride heights by steps of millimeters. We
can change the fundamental rear roll bars. We can change

(30:53):
how the heave works, how the positioning of the front
and the rear in a vertical direction works. We can
change there's ten aerodynamic packages, and of those you can
then tune the angle of the wings. So when I
say the infinite there really is. I mean I just
give me a small subsection of them. But there's a
really very different ways of getting the car into the
corner and out of the corner. If all you're doing

(31:14):
with a driver is working with those tools to get
them comfortable. Actually it's a matter of races. A few
races will do the job. If inherently in the car
you have some characteristics which are baked into the aerodynamics
or baked into the videocodynamics. That isn't now a number
of races anymore. It could be half a year. It
could even be the following season by the time that
you've really changed your concepts enough to adapt the car

(31:37):
to that style. So that's one and two A driver
now before they get into in the case of car,
so you had a day and a half in the car.
In the case of alex as well, so we had
a day and a half each in Bahrain. And it
sounds like a lot of time, But when you're trying
to evaluate a number of set up items, error items,
how we're just trying to work the car. So how
the cooling system works, just some fundamentals system works, it's

(32:01):
not and that's what leads them to do experiments on
a race weekend. And that's what takes a number of
races to really get up to speed. So what's bringing
it all together? A driver actually on a given track,
as long as they know the track, probably within seven laps,
they're absolutely on the money for the pace of it.
That's all they need seven laps for themselves. Wow. From
then onwards, it's about adapting the car. To the conditions

(32:22):
and the circumstance that's beyond it. And as I said,
hopefully I've described that well enough. It could be a
few races, it could be half a season or a
season if the sit really nasty that they can't get
done with.

Speaker 1 (32:34):
So that is a valid challenge for anybody.

Speaker 3 (32:38):
Absolutely. I mean it's these individuals in They blow my mind,
they really do. They are so incredible in what they
do that we don't often talk about it, and so
far away from what a normal human being does. And
I don't just mean in terms of pushing themselves. We
had a race a few years ago in Qatar where
the conditions about thirty five is ambient. It was a

(33:01):
full on race and I had I was holding Logan
up physically he could not hold himself up anymore, and
Alex had two drips and was on its way to hospital.
He finished the race. They can push themselves to a
level that you would struggle to get your head around.
So that's the first thing in terms of physicality, But
in terms of performance, they just machines that like to

(33:22):
optimize every millisecond. They optimize their body through what they
do with heating, eating and health and training. They optimize
the car, they optimize the engineering team, they optimize everything
around them as a structure. They're useless of other things.
Alex leaves his keys, is wallet, and his phone in
my office every time he passes by. He can't do
simple basic things in life, but he's pretty damn good

(33:42):
at driving a racing car. And the reason why I
bring that up is when we're talking about these these
drivers and the margins, they're really fine. Now you know,
we are really talking a matter of milliseconds, or we're
talking a matter of very tiny differences in driving style,
but it gets amplified on a big stage when a
tenth suddenly defines five cars, and it's really important to

(34:05):
bring that in context in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (34:07):
By the way, last week we were talking about I
am a Moto GP fan, Hannah loves F one, and
so there's inherently this argument right about which is more interesting,
And I was proven wrong last weekend because I always
say Moto GP is more interesting. But this season Motor
GP is fairly boring so far, and Formula One has
been hard to take your eyes off of. What do

(34:30):
you think though, about the way the sport has changed
throughout your involvement, I guess throughout your lifetime, because I'm
sure you've been watching it your whole life. For example,
Monte Carlo last year might as well not have been
a race, right. Do you think that they need to
make changes so that that kind of thing doesn't happen?
What would you do if you were the boss of

(34:51):
F one?

Speaker 3 (34:53):
So a few things. Good news is I'm a motor
GP fan as well. I have another guy, good friend, yeah,
in a paddock and if you google it you'll see it.
You'll see I did something with Valentino and look it
so a while ago. But I ride motorbikes on track.
I've seen it for some reason. Ye, So I get
why you love motor GP. I also get why you

(35:14):
said what you just said, because what made it exceptional
before was and this is where I'm getting into the
Formula one bit. You had a number of gladiators because
that's what they are, frankly, putting their life on the line,
where you couldn't predict who's going to win, and you
could almost predict that something incredible is going to happen
before the end of the race, and it normally did,
and it's changed a little bit this year. But what
I've just described is formula one. I can't go into

(35:36):
Japan predicting who's going to win Japan, no idea whatsoever.
What's going to happen in that regard. The order is
shaken up and we're so close together now that a
team that is at the front mcclowen otherwise you can
see they are punished. They don't get it right, you're
suddenly out in Q one, which is what happened to me.
Say these Ferrari are really pushing the boundaries, got thrown.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
Out now, James, after qualifying, it's not hard to pick
a winner, right, That's the problem with F one.

Speaker 3 (36:02):
So I don't think that's the case as much anymore.
You're absolutely right the top four are probably going to
say somewhere in there, there's going to be a bit
of shuffling around that a couple of Monaco one, but
not all the time, and that's what I enjoy about it.
So the problem that you've described there is more that

(36:22):
Lewis won the sprint race fair and square. Lando was ninth,
and so you're right in that circumstance, But actually Lando
had a car that should have been able to fight
it all the way back up to P two or
P one, the Ba tars one and NiFe fetched and
that's what I like about it. I wouldn't have predicted
that going into the race. I would have predicted Lando
should be right up in the midst of it. In
the main race. I think Shanghai neutralized what was going

(36:43):
to be great, but Melbourne didn't. Melbourne, I think, was
exciting all the way through. So your point in Monaco.
Monico is a very unique circuit and as much as
it's about the show, it's about being there. It's about
the standout crown jewel almost in terms of event. But
we also recognize that we didn't do something that's really

(37:05):
in keeping now with all the other circuit and very
specific to Monaco. We will all be doing a force
to stop race, which will shake up the order somewhat
as a result of things. Now. Is it going to
be perfect, No, but I do think it's the right
direction of travel to make sure that what we are
providing is a sport where it's not cemented on Saturday,
and that's what might happen in the case of Monaco.

(37:28):
I still don't like it, though, I Mean, I've had
some pretty disastrous Monaco races, really good ones as well,
So I can remember those and I can recall those.
But I do take your point that we need to
take care that we're not a Saturday afternoon spectacle.

Speaker 1 (37:41):
This is sort of in the same vein. But for
next year, what's the what's the anticipation for having another
team added to the grid in Catalla?

Speaker 3 (37:54):
So I think obviously there's there's disruption on the way through.
There's no point worrying about that anymore. But I'm pleased
that we have and it is a major US brand
joining us. It will have an impact on the sport
that will be positive, simple as that. However, please don't
underestimate the challenge that they have in front of them.
It's enormous now to be competing in this world stage

(38:16):
against teams that have been investing quite significantly now for
a number of years, and it is going to be
a struggle for them, I think, is the reality behind it.
But as I said, globally, it should help us as
a sport. I think already in America when I saw
the stats, we went from just as a viewership six
hundred three thousand to three million last year, just just

(38:38):
a one race in America that's just an American viewership,
and it's grown another ten to twenty percent. And what's
really encouraging to me is that pathway will only be accelerated,
not slowed down as a result of it. And I
want our sport to be successful for not one year,
but the next twenty years, and a global sport, and
global means that we need to have representation all over

(38:58):
the world, so that altogether, I think there's a logistical challenge.
By the way, I didn't mention there were some tracks.
I have no idea how we're going to fit eleven
of assume, but we'll deal with that when we get there.
I think for the time being, I wish them all
the best. I think it's a hell of a challenge
to get up and running next year, but globally it
will make the sport better in time.

Speaker 1 (39:17):
I have to imagine there's already the conversations about those
very logistics that you mentioned about how to handle yet
more cars, for instance, on the track in Monaco. Are
you part of those conversations. Are the teams being involved
in those conversations at all?

Speaker 3 (39:35):
No, short answer, no. Interestingly, on the previous point that
you asked, which is what would I do if we
run sport? But the good news is teams have a
voice in that, so we are actively coming together. We
come together once every two months or so to talk
about that. In terms of the logistics though, that's solely
really down to the FI and for all of one management,
who we trust to do this in the right way.
There are problems in Monaco. I don't know how we

(39:57):
can fit someone in Zamport as well. It's a lovely sir,
but there is no space whatsoever at all. But it's
not one that we can't overcome. The facts are it's
going to happen, so we will make it work.

Speaker 1 (40:10):
And I also wonder was there a sense that it
was critical or increasingly critical to get an American team
in the series because of the continued push for growth
among American viewers.

Speaker 3 (40:27):
I mean, hass is an American entry, irrespected, it is
worth saying it be a second American team.

Speaker 1 (40:34):
I did think that pause.

Speaker 3 (40:36):
Yeah, second team, second team. I think I think actually
the real key behind it is it's the OEM part,
a large major, one of the biggest manufacturers in the
world being part of the sport. So in other words,
that it could have been a different manufacturer in a
different country. I think it benefits us because this one

(40:57):
is growth in America. But had it been another one
that would have had growth in a different market, I
think that would have been just as good. What the
whole point of our sport is we have to be
very international and growing across the world. But the real
key behind it is a major manufacturer, and.

Speaker 1 (41:14):
That would differentiate Cadillac from Andretti. Where Cadillac is a manufacturer.

Speaker 3 (41:20):
You're spot on, that's the difference between the two. It's
Cadillac brings with a huge amount of knowledge, experience. Look
what they're doing at the moment in we look how
they're investing in all the sports. Look at the name
and what it contains, major major brand, and it's very
different from a single individual that perhaps doesn't come with
all the accolade behind it.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
What is it like? I mean, we had a listener
writing in to ask about the business model for manufacturers
who own race teams. But what's what's the big differentiator
in your experience between you know Frank Williams and you
know Mercedes.

Speaker 3 (41:55):
So it's a good question that the band's narrowing is
what I would say, and a pure example of that
is McLaren isn't a manufacturer. That's not quite true. McLaren
generates road cars, they're not with their engine and the
pall unit being provided the track is not a McLaren,
it is a Mercedes. Fundamentally, they are a customer to

(42:17):
Mercedes and they won a championship. And it's really important
to differentiate between how perhaps the sport was ten years
ago where I think there will be zero chance that
a non manufacturer could have a real opportunity. We can
go back to fank Stays, where again there was more
opportunity back then. But I think what we've done as
a sport is the right direction of travel, which is

(42:37):
effectively now minimize the differences between a manufacturer or not
there were still are. There was no doubt about it
that the integration of the power unit into a Mercedes
is going to be more complete than the integration does
it would be into the Williams, because fundamentally we all
have a voice at the table, but Mercedes will always
be and should be the most powerful because they're the

(42:57):
works manufacturer behind it, and so you can get into
very small minute details. It could be the positioning and
the layout of the exhausts. Will have one view for
next year based on what we're doing around the chassis,
what we're doing around aerodynamics. The studies will have a
different view and if it if they're aligned, fantastic. If
they're not aligned, it will go down the manufacturer route. Now.

(43:17):
The reason why I talk about though, is they're very
minute differences relative to perhaps receiving a power unit that
is half the power of your works team, and that
simply can't happen anymore. There's regulations, the regulations that hibit
that basically all the end or the power units are
somewhat the same as they're provided to and operated the same,
which gives us an opportunity to fight for a world

(43:38):
championship as it has my time on. So the sport's
in a better place as a result of it, So
hopefully that that defines it. Small differences, they're still there.

Speaker 2 (43:46):
But what James, the business side of your I mean,
Obviously it's super fun to talk about the cars and
the pilots and the teams, the main mechanics you know
and sunday, but you do like these teams are worth
a ton of money, So explain the business model to
a listener who maybe doesn't know that side of it.

Speaker 3 (44:06):
At that one the team, the team has value, you
absolutely spot on, and that's a large difference from where
we were even just ten years ago. Teams didn't really
have inherent value. Ten years ago, teams sold for one pound.
That was it, because why would you take a team up.
You've got to put one hundred million in a year.
There's an adage which is the fastest way to become
a millionaire is to be a billionaire and buy a
former one team. So it is a true adage. Answering

(44:30):
your question, though, the difference to where we were ten
years ago is we're running these businesses now, so we're
not just a sport that is reliant on someone just
putting money into the background. And that's what happened with manufacturers.
That's what happened, not just with manufacturers, to be clear,
but red Bull. Red Bull probably put in more than
most others into the sport. They've built a whole value
in the function, which is hundreds of millions. But obviously

(44:51):
in doing so, it's not selling cars, it's selling fuzzy
drinks which don't taste that good in my experience, they're awful.
But here's where the this models finally kicked off. I well,
there's always one. What's changed is this a couple of things.
Just before COVID, we all agreed to a cost cap,

(45:13):
which was a high number, to be honest, than where
we are today. But the reason behind the cost cap
is because we all acknowledged that we're just investing in
growing at such a rate that it's unsustainable as a
result of things, because we would buy our way out
of trouble. And you know, if you're a manufacturer, you
have the finance to do it. If you're Williams, you didn't,
simple as that at the time. Williams has changed now

(45:34):
it's a different ownership, but this is old Williams. In COVID,
we actually had a phone call because we were desperately
worried that that was the end of our sport. Just
to put it, I mean, many businesses thought it was
the end of them. Actually, as it turned out, we
were okay because we're one of the few sports where
the human beings are encased in the helmet and separated
by at least two meters on track, So you're going

(45:54):
to be somewhat okay in terms of that. But what
we did is changed the cost cap again to be
even more stringent, even more restrictive. One of the best
decisions we've ever made as a sport, because now we
can run it as a business. You cannot spend your
way out of trouble, and what that creates is opportunity
for all of us to effectively maximize every dollar we

(46:14):
spend within that Now I think most teams are now
at the cost cap. We certainly are and have been
since I've been in the organization. Not everyone is yet
I think, well too, we'll play catch up in that regard,
but it allows us now to effectively ensure that we're
getting as the sport grows, the right partners on board
that bring a certain amount of income to the sport,

(46:36):
provides an income as well at the same time and
make it into a business that you grow into, so
you're not just reliant on your ev or value, but
you actually do have a cash flow that puts you
into a positive situation, which a number of teams on
the grid have now achieved. And so the difference before
is you needed the manufacturer backing behind you. Treat me
more as a startup. Now I'm very fortunate to have

(46:57):
investors that are willing to put in the prime the
amount of financial required to bring us there. But as
with every startup, once you get over that hurdle, we
should be a self sustaining business.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
And you guys have a new title partnership with at
Lassian as well, right, can you talk about what that
may bring in the future.

Speaker 3 (47:17):
I can talk about what it brings today. I mean
it's first of all, in the history of Suddenly Williams,
this is the largest largest partner we've had on board
by a long way as well, and more important to
me was not finding someone that just wanted to put
a sticker on the car. More important to us, i
should say it's not to me, is not just a
stick on the car, but a real partner that has systems, technology, thoughts,

(47:41):
ethos that aligns with our own and more importantly, where
they want to have a real tangible story at the
out of it, where we are improving as a result
of their investment in us. And that is the case
with that lassion and it's their background is really bringing
teams together, It's about collaboration, it's about systems, tools, structures
behind all of that, and so there's some real, tangible

(48:01):
the tools that they have will be integrated and the
real world purposes adapted to what we need here in
some of the cases and others you don't need to
structurally sound for what they need to be. And then
on top of that an investment and how we're using data,
how we're using information flow that they can use their
powerhouse that they've developed over years to do a better
job with so real stories rather than stick on the car.

(48:23):
And the next part of it with the Lascian is
that we're very aligned on our culture. So effectively, people
are everything to me. You can have all the machines
in the world, but ultimately it's the people that design
the machines and tell you what direction to be going,
and people are the rood couse of it. And your
investment to people is categorical and important and that aligns
perfectly with Alassian everything. And that's why all the tools

(48:45):
are collaboration. Everything's about investing in people.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
By the way, I wanted to ask you about your degree.
I heard a commercial for some university here in the US,
I think maybeas Purdue, and they were talking about they
have a motors wors engineering Matt a major, and I thought,
that's so cool that people can major in that. And
then I saw on your CV that you actually did.

Speaker 3 (49:10):
It.

Speaker 2 (49:10):
What it was like studying that in college? And how
successful do you think those kinds of programs are? Like
do you get a ton of your team members from
motorsports engineering majors?

Speaker 3 (49:24):
So good questions. I'm a little bit weird and as
much as I did too. I did a mathematics and
computer science as the first one. Then realized I really
couldn't do computer science for the next fifty years of
my life, so then migrated into a second degree, which
is this one that's the one you're speaking about at
Cranfield and there was a mixture between management and mustorsport engineering.
And it was the first year ever for certainly Cranfield University.

(49:47):
I was part of the first entrant and it's very specialist.
But the reason why I went down that route was
the following It was completely connected to around about six
teams at the time. In other words, you had exposure
of two teams to the major people within those organizations.
I had a pass that allowed me into cycle the BRDC,

(50:07):
the Bush Racing Drivers Club back because whenever I wanted
to that connection to the industry was vital because what
I realized early on is some of the most intelligent
people I know you may not even make it into
Formula one. It's going to sound very odd, but people
in Formula one seem to all have five to ten
years experience, and all seemed to be forty except I

(50:30):
couldn't figure out where you got your five ten years
experience from. So what I was using was effectively the
conduit of a very linked university with a good course
to allow me to have a step enter into it. Yes,
we do recruit from those courses. However, I'd be even
so bold as to say, if you did an automotive
or mechanical or aeronautical, or even better, you've mixed two
subjects a little bit like I did, you have just

(50:53):
a good chance as anything of coming into a sport.
Because the world has changed in a really good way.
Twenty twenty some years ago, graduates literally did not go
into Formula one, and I was very fortunate to be
given an opportunity to do that. I got lucky, is
how I would see it. But these days, one hundred
and thirty seven individuals out of one thousand our early careers.

(51:17):
I believe desperately in investing in our future generations because
our graduates and even those that are still at university,
effectively they are taking a year out that join us
and our apprentices. They are going to form our leaders
in the next ten years, maybe five to ten, depending
on how they're structured. And that is the strength of
an organization. It's an investment in the long term, and

(51:38):
I went through that route. I can see how to
build companies that way, and I invest dramatically in it.
So as the result of that, your degree is probably
the specific title of it is less important to me
than individuals that are multi variant. They have a lot
of strings to their boat and obviously incredibly intelligent that
goes with it.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
I just thought it was cool that you're starting to
see that at more universities. I think Purdue does it
because they're close to to Indy, right, and so they
have that racing history and people who go there want
to be a part of it. What made you want
to be a part of it? Like what drove you?
Obviously it wasn't just oh, I can't do computers, I
should go be the principal Formula one team. Instead, you

(52:18):
must have been just very interested in cars, I guess
in racing from a younger age.

Speaker 3 (52:24):
Yeah, it's I did a tiny bit of karting. Just
on that. I have a theory that there's two two
types of individual our sport. In the engineering side were
the very best engineers you could really ever hope for,
and then probably failed racing drivers. And I don't know
which camp I fall into. Probably all have failed racing
driver camp. But I what I fell in love with

(52:47):
is I feel at home. Describe me as an individual.
I'm highly competitive. I need to be successful everything I do.
When I go into it, I will put my heart
and so I put sleep aside, life aside. What I
want to do is be successful. That's how I'm built
as an individual, and it's how I built my career
to where I am today. The result of that is

(53:08):
that what I found was an environment where I'm surrounded
by people that have a very similar affinity. They're driven
by success, They're driven by on track results and performance.
It's not a nine to five. You simply couldn't do
Formula one if you treat it as a job. It
is my passion, it is my life fundamentally, and I
so happened to get paid for it, which I think

(53:30):
is a fantastic element at the back end. So what
I fell in love with is when I watched it
on TV. And I was naive at the time I
started watching in the eighties. You watched it on TV
in thing as as simple as whatever, thirty people involved
in the sport, and almost I didn't think about anything
on the back end. What I was focused on was
there's a car. I didn't even think about how that

(53:50):
was produced, and a gladiatoral driver. And I fell in
love with it because it's just this highly competitive sport
where you put everything on the line every few weeks
in front of an audience. Then when I actually started
realizing behind the scenes, this is back in the early
two thousands, it was two hundred and fifty people. It's
about the size of a team back then, working day
and night to just continuously improve from where you are.

(54:13):
That's where I fell in love with it and wanted
it to be a part of my life.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
You know, James, every race that I've gone to in
Formula one, I start to see the same people and
it's really great and you start to realize this is
a traveling circus truly, and it's the same pod of
it's a tribe of people who travel around the world.
Is it better if someone in that traveling circus doesn't

(54:40):
have a personal life, like not married and no children,
so they can do exactly what you say, which is
completely devote themselves to this ambition and endeavor.

Speaker 3 (54:53):
So I'm going to go into a little bit of philosophy,
but I'm going to give you some very personal exciting
to me. I believe you need three things in life
to be happy. And this isn't my invention. There's a
philosopher that was a couple hundred years ago that came
up with it. But I absolutely buy into this. I
think you really do need three things. I think you
need something that keeps you active day on day, something
to do in other words, So in my case, that's

(55:15):
formula one. But I also believe that you need to
have your heart filled. You need something in your life
that is creates you a happiness beyond anything else. And
it can be friends, it can be family, it can
be a hobby, but you need that as a part
of your life in my opinion, to complete the happiness cycle.
And then you need a third thing. You need something
to look forward to something that's always dragging you forward,
pushing you forward. And so I think you need those

(55:38):
three things in life to be happy. And so if
you get rid of one of those, which is what
you're talking about here, I think you will always feel
an emptiness without doubt. Our lives are hard. They're hard
for I have a young family and a family back here.
But I'm also incredibly fortunate. My another half is a surgeon,
and she worked for thirty eight years to become one

(55:59):
of the surgeons in the UK because it's as punishing
and as hard a cycle, and so we have a
mutual aspect for each other and what we've done with
our careers. And now I actually think I'm one of
the fortunate people in life where when I'm back and
we have time, which is the weekend, that that time
is ours. In fact, we can't add Tuesday a just
for what it's worth that Tuesday no phones. It is

(56:19):
just the two of us or our family as well.
That's what it's about. It's about the two of us.
And because of that, instead of just accepting that we're
around each other, we make it incredibly special for the
time that we are around of each other because it
doesn't there's not a lot of it. So I for
what it's worth, I feel as though I have a
very happy life. But it is a compromise.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
It's different that philosopher, isn't that George Washington burn up?

Speaker 3 (56:45):
Yeah, very possibly.

Speaker 1 (56:46):
I now need to look it up now I haven't
looked at Yes, I've heard that, but it's you know,
something to do, someone to love and what was the
third one? That's time to look for something, something to
hope for? You know? And that it's interesting to hear
you say that because I think for all of us,
we're trying to figure out how to balance, you know,

(57:08):
bringing our family and social life into also work. But
you too, even more extreme and intense degree.

Speaker 2 (57:17):
So wait a second, something to do is f one?
Is the family something to love?

Speaker 1 (57:24):
Or is that something let's hope?

Speaker 2 (57:27):
No, what's the third one?

Speaker 3 (57:30):
What's so for me that the ci to look forwarto,
I'm afraid is to work. But that's because I'm so
that would work for me. That is winning a world
championship in Williams as a part of Williams.

Speaker 2 (57:41):
So for us it's like work, family and then what
you do because we look forward to watch, dude, do
you have so it sounds like from talking to you
that you have zero time otherwise. But I always wonder
about you, know, you and the team principles or the

(58:02):
drivers and mechanics, Like do you have a special car
that you work on at home? Do you have a
bike that you like to tinker on or that you
like to go for a ride to clear your head?
Or is there some kind of mechanical like vehicle that's
not work that you kind of need in your life.

Speaker 3 (58:17):
Yes and no. So what I mean by that is
I find peace by either going for a run or
cycling to work. Cycling to work's about thirty three kilometers
or I think it's about twenty twenty miles or twenty
miles maybe. Yeah, they're IM back at so forty. I
enjoy that. I love that. It's just because it's two
things at once. It's not optimization. I get to do exercise,

(58:39):
but I'm also doing something that no one can disturb me.
My phone's off. I can just clear my head and
enjoy life somewhat that counts.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
Your thing is the bicycle, then, yeah, well you love
your bicycle.

Speaker 3 (58:53):
I have an a ray. I'm very fortunate. I have
a ray of things, but I don't tinker with them.
They're all fairly modern vehicles, so you can kind of
these days. Unfortunately you can't think of them. I used
to when I was really young. This will give you
an idea into me as well. I haven't said this
publicly at all. Me and a very good friend of mine,
we live together in Lundon. We had motorbikes. There were

(59:13):
tiny motorbikes though, but we would drive to a location
which is one of our carriages, do an engine, strip
and rebuild in about forty five minutes, and then fire
up and go back home again. So I have done
that in my life and I loved it. We did
screw it up once, We had to do it twice.
We did screw it up once. But the important point
behind that is you were absolutely spot on. Things like that.

(59:34):
Really I get connected to But actually I don't have
that in my life anymore. I have Instead, I will
go out for a ride on my motorbike or a car,
or go for a bicycle ride. Effectively, I will do
something that is just rewarding to me in a different way.

Speaker 2 (59:50):
What bike, what motorbike?

Speaker 3 (59:53):
It's a Chikati Panagali, but it's the nine to one
six special edition, so it's a lovely bit of kid
like it. So yeah, so nothing.

Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
Slow talking about something to hope for. I have to ask,
you know, when you think about the glory days of
Williams in the nineties, and you know there were some
championships in there, what do you see as different now
versus then, both in terms of internal to the team

(01:00:27):
and the car and the drivers and whatever else is
going on on the grid and what really just on
a top level, what needs to change to recapture that glory.

Speaker 3 (01:00:43):
The cars were so the team sizes were small back then,
as I said when I joined in two thousand as
about one hundred and fifty five people not sure what
Williams would have been maybe three hundred or something in
that ballpark were now over one thousand, So what really
changes this? Cars weren't reliable, They'd finish one and two
races something in their pall park. They were very simple

(01:01:05):
by comparison, lovely bits of engineering, but incredibly simple in
terms of how they are, so a damper would do
what you were traditionally expected damper to do, whereas now
we're using those technologies to control ride heights within a
millimeter fundamentally, and it's twenty thousand components on the car
today relative to a few hundred back then. Just data

(01:01:25):
is different as well. Back in the early two thousands,
I think we logged about twenty channels of data and
now we're logging fifty thousand to seventy thousand channels of data.
Just a completely different world because that's the level of
detail that we're having to go down into to extract
the last few milli seconds sell of it. So it's
like anything I think in the world. Everything's become a
level of detail, more deep and more embedded, and that's

(01:01:48):
the level we have to all be in now in
order to maximize the opportunity. The cars were a lot
more carbon than they were, not that we've moved to
carbon chassis, but it was really the bias between carbon
and metal has changed a lot more towards carbon. And
the reason why I bring that up is because metal,
actually we use large C and C machines. You can
automate a lot of it. Carbon you can't. It's consider

(01:02:11):
it an art relative to anything else. It's still using
human being with a rollerbrush, pushing carbon fiber into a
mold and curing it. Except the difference now is we're
trying to get parts out that within the ground of
each other rather than one hundred or two hundred crams.
Everything's just a lot more complex in what we're achieving
with a lot level a higher level of detail.

Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
And I guess what I really meant by that is
what will it take for Williams specifically to return to
the the championship.

Speaker 3 (01:02:43):
The first thing we needed is when we need the
right people around us. What I mean by that is
we weren't quite the right size and we were losing
really good people every year. Probably quarter of our workforce,
if you put that to my mind, was being taken
every year. And that means that any knowledge, any ip
just disappeared out of the door straightaway. So we need
a sustainability in the right people joining us to understand

(01:03:04):
what excellence looks like, and we're fortunate to have that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
Now.

Speaker 3 (01:03:07):
That's a big change. I mean, we grew the team
from seven hundred to over one thousand in space of
two years, and we're still growing. The next element of
things is this elements of our infrastructure that we're out
of date. One of those we spoke about openly is
The simulator, as lovely as it was, was about fifteen
years out of date, and that goes for a lot
of the infrastructure. You'll find a magic number which is

(01:03:28):
about fifteen to twenty years out of date in certain systems,
and that was simply because that's where the investment slowed
down on behalf of Williams for good reason. They were
surviving more than growing. But all of that has to
be replaced. There's just no circumventing it. And that's what
we're doing in the background now. The building we're in
was made for about five hundred people, so we are

(01:03:48):
moving into an entirely new building on site, which will
take place sometime across this year, so this year alone,
and it will help you understand the changes. We've got
to build the right infrastructure around us, like technology systems,
and they don't exist off the shelf. We have to
build them up a similated We started eighteen months ago
and be ready shortly they're building again. That doesn't come
up overnight. You need to build into that, and then

(01:04:10):
beyond there there's some process systems and structures that simply
weren't there. It was an organic build business that built
around the concept. Still of two really strong leaders, which
is what we had in Frank and Patrick, but almost
every decision went to them, and then it would circumvent down.
You can't run a business of a thousand people that way.
So we need process, systems and structure that people are empowered,

(01:04:30):
but within a framework that we know works that takes
longer than you perhaps people may think, in order to
structure and put in place. But what I'm talking about
here is no different to any other business in the
world that's running smoothly. It doesn't matter whether you're producing
items or running a Formula one team. You need empowered
individuals that are of the right level and quality, that
understands what good looks like, who then understand how to

(01:04:51):
invest in infrastructure around it, which is what we're doing
at the moment. So that's our pathway. What we spread
about openly is we're still in a transit period. In
twenty five twenty six will be a step, but it'll
still be several years beyond twenty six and twenty seven
and twenty eight before really everything I've just spoken about
is fixed, cemented in the place.

Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
What are you doing this weekend?

Speaker 2 (01:05:20):
I'm going to Austin tomorrow Oh, that's fun for the
Moto GP. Very excited because number one, I'm going with
my man Michael Haas.

Speaker 1 (01:05:32):
Oh, that's great.

Speaker 2 (01:05:33):
And my wife and his wife.

Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
Are six the wives.

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
No, they have only met one time in San Diego
at a Ducati ride like years ago. But in any case,
it's like a double date. It's like a big double date.
And the other cool thing is I used for the
first time riders share, which is like Touro but for motorcycles.

Speaker 1 (01:05:57):
Wow, So how did.

Speaker 2 (01:05:59):
You get this?

Speaker 3 (01:06:00):
Guy?

Speaker 2 (01:06:00):
Ravi in Austin has a the same bike that I
want to buy Harley Davidson Fat Bob, and so I'm
gonna ride that around while I'm there, which is very
cool because my wife, who thinks we don't need another motorcycle,
I can convince her she might love it. And also
has arranged dinner with two former podcast guests, Jason Chinook,

(01:06:26):
who is the CEO of Ducatti North America and Claudio Domenicali,
who is the CEO of Ducatti Global.

Speaker 1 (01:06:32):
Amazing, amazing, Well give them my regards. That'll be really great.
Where are you going to have dinner?

Speaker 2 (01:06:37):
I don't know, but since obviously you know when Claudio DOMENICALI.
When his staff arranges a dinner for him, it's always
at an amazing place. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
Yeah, Now are the wives also coming to the dinner?

Speaker 2 (01:06:51):
Yes? Okay, in fact, all.

Speaker 1 (01:06:53):
Right, so that'll be that'll be really enjoyable, like more
of a social setting. Yes, that'll be really nice.

Speaker 2 (01:06:59):
And yeah, I'm super excited obviously. You know, Austin is
so cool. I mean, do you think that or do
I just think that?

Speaker 1 (01:07:07):
I do think. Uh, I wouldn't use the word cool,
and I know.

Speaker 2 (01:07:14):
I well, we have different ideas of cool.

Speaker 1 (01:07:16):
That's why cool to describe. And this is somebody who
went to college in Texas, lived in Dallas after college,
and much of my family lives in Dallas. My dad
went to a Texas school, My aunts and uncles went
to Texas schools. Got quite a lot of Texas schooling

(01:07:37):
in our family.

Speaker 2 (01:07:39):
Wait, do you prefer the Big d to Austin?

Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
Oh? Yeah, I did.

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
I love Dallas.

Speaker 1 (01:07:44):
Also, I love Dallas. If I was going to live
in Texas, I would live in Dallas. I did live
in Dallas for about a year and a half after college,
and a lot of my favorite people are from Texas.
There's a certain type of old school Texan, and I'm

(01:08:05):
talking about the Matthew McConaughey type, the old wildcatter type.
I love that kind of Texan that is just a
you know, if you've done it, it ain't bragging type
of guy. And that type of eccentric person is so great.
Do you ever watch Landman?

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
I have watched land Man, And if it weren't for
the kind of ridiculousness of the falsehoods that they're peddling,
I think I would like it better. Yeah, because I
love Billy, Bob Thornton, me too, And I love people
from Texas like I have been to Dallas many many times.

Speaker 1 (01:08:43):
Yes, I'm a big fan. I love fort Worth.

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
Because I love everybody I meet there, and it's a it's.

Speaker 1 (01:08:49):
A very particular I mean Texas. There is still a
strong movement in Texas to become its own republic.

Speaker 2 (01:08:56):
Which is which I totally get and I really understand that,
and I don't be grudge them that. No. No, I
love John Hennessy. Is he actually a Texan? Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:09:08):
He I saw him at Miami by the way with
his lovely wife. Yeah. Yeah, he is a born and
bred Texan.

Speaker 2 (01:09:17):
And but so I would rather live in Dallas also,
But I do think Austin is cool because the roads
around Austin are amazing to drive on, like that's Texas
hill country and the you know, especially for riders, Like
it's so great. Plus I like, uh sort of college

(01:09:38):
town bar strips, you know, even though I don't drink anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:09:43):
Wow, I hate I hate hate college town.

Speaker 2 (01:09:46):
I love it. I love it, you know, even.

Speaker 1 (01:09:48):
When I was in college. This is you know.

Speaker 2 (01:09:52):
If I find a place that, like on the Ohio
State campus, like this place, not als had quarter beers.
You know, it's the day obviously, but I for some
reason enjoy it. What about you? Wait, what are you
doing this weekend?

Speaker 1 (01:10:05):
Magnus is announcing a partnership with Peninferina, so I will
be playing plus one on that. There are a bunch
of people coming down to the warehouse on Saturday, and
that's kind of it. I don't have any huge plans.
I have actually a Lamborghini Urus being dropped tomorrow, probably

(01:10:30):
the same one that you had.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
Nice.

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
I'll be driving that, which I'm looking forward to, and
I'll be crying over my lost camarg that I didn't
get for a pretty good price. But I really don't
have any business buying anything. It's just it's tough when
you know something's a pretty good deal.

Speaker 2 (01:10:47):
I think it's pretty amazing that Magnus is announcing a
partnership with Pininfarina. So this guy who came over from
I don't know where he's from, Birmingham or whatever, right, Sheffield,
Sheffield exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:10:59):
I knew that Philadelphia of the UK in Pittsburgh.

Speaker 2 (01:11:02):
At like what nineteen, he goes to LA eighteen years old,
like no formal education, bootstraps himself through everything, self taught,
kind of outlaw designer, hooks up a partnership with the
most lauded and respected, you know, educated designer in the world,

(01:11:26):
Like everybody who works at Pininfarina probably went to the
oldest university in the world at Bologna and studied these things.
You know. It's just such a cool like destination for
Magnus and also like for Pininfarina, they get a little
bit more edge, which they need, Like what a cool
You couldn't have written.

Speaker 1 (01:11:47):
That, No, you couldn't. And he's so casual about it.
I mean, he's just like he's very casual about it.
I'm of course, very proud of him, so it'll be
fun to see. We're we're we actually invited your buddy
Michael Hawes, but I think he will be.

Speaker 2 (01:12:01):
In He's gonna be in this. Yeah, Austin with me.
Yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:12:04):
Small world enjoyed, Texas.

Speaker 2 (01:12:07):
You have fun with Peen and Farina. I'm Matt Miller
and

Speaker 1 (01:12:11):
I'm Hannah Elliott and this is Bluebird