Knighthead Capital's Tom Wagner on Singer, Revology, and Formula 1

Tom Wagner of Knighthead Capital joins Hannah Elliott and Matt Miller to discuss Singer, Revology and Formula 1. Plus, his take on the growth potential of endurance racing and the future of EVs and autonomous driving.  

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
I'm Matt Miller and I'm Hannah Elliott, and this is
hot pursuit, all right.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
So we have both been excited to talk to Tom
Wagner of Nighthead Capital for a while now, so he's
agreed to come in and talk to us. Let's get
straight into it. I want to just first off say
we both listened to Barrio Holtz podcast and we loved it.
And I always love Barry's podcast, But Hannah, you're the
one who turned me on to the to the Tom
Wagner episode, and it was great, right.

Speaker 3 (00:34):
It was really good.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
It was very far reaching, and I think it really
set a good platform for whar we can jump off of.
So anyone listening, go listen to the very very podcast
if you want to hear about more of the financial
side and sports teams.

Speaker 3 (00:48):
And Tom Brady.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
And those things, because we're going to focus on cars.
Really yeah, for these purposes.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
So let's start with your company is Nighthead Capital, and
you may investments in a lot of different assets, but
is it still like the distressed debt thing where you
kind of cut your teeth.

Speaker 4 (01:07):
We do a lot of distressed investing, which I would
characterize as maybe not distressed as in the purest form anymore.
We invest in businesses that are going through transitions. Sometimes
that's a turnaround, maybe operationally, maybe financially, maybe strategically, and
we try to find places to deploy capital where our

(01:28):
capital and our expertise can make a difference. And we've
found some interesting investments in the automobile slash mobility space
broadly defined, where we believe we can make a positive impact.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
So Revology and Singer, we've talked about Hertz, I think
is a famous one. And then you have a WEC
racing team, right Yoda, Yeah, are those the big automotive
investments that you have?

Speaker 4 (01:54):
Those are certainly the biggest. There are a few other small,
more venture type things that that we don't really talk about.
By small, I mean really tiny dollars, but where we
think that they are strategically important to us. And then
others that are adjacent to those businesses where we think
we can bolt them on and grow the existing investments

(02:14):
that we have. But those four that you mentioned have
a common thread. We have a view that mobility is
going to move with increasing speed towards electrification because economically
and for other reasons socially environmentally, it makes the most sense.
We were bitterly and hurts. But the thesis that led

(02:36):
us to make that decision to purchase evs is intact,
if you hold the cars for a long enough period
of time, the rows are much better than ices, and
there are lots of other advantages there, but the fundamental
reality is that with most evs they don't inspire the
same kind of passion that certain other vehicles do. And
we felt that as people move towards electric vehicles as

(02:58):
the choice of transportation and to get from point A
to point B, there would be a rise in interest
in vehicles and inspire great passion because people would use
the evs as kind of their mode of transportation, low cost,
you know, high tech. I mean Tesla's you know, are
a great example of that. They're fantastic vehicles in getting
A to B very very safely, very very economically. But

(03:20):
on the weekend, maybe you want to go out and
have a different experience. Let's call it digital versus analog.
The analog experience for those who are car nuts, I think,
like the three of us and probably most of your listeners,
involves more than getting point A to point B.

Speaker 5 (03:33):
It's the feel, it's the smell.

Speaker 4 (03:34):
It's the sound, the vibration, the skill required to move
some of these vehicles with some level of speed and safety.
And we thought that that would continue and that has happened.
There's been a massive rise. Now that rise, we had
a big blip post COVID, and the day of reckoning

(03:54):
is now upon us when demand has kind of come
back to earth a little bit, and that's going to
cause a big shakeout. But I think the long term
trend continues to rise upward and we're going to see
more and more interest in these really really high quality
you know, non ev you know, ice, restored vehicles, reimagined vehicles.

Speaker 5 (04:15):
That whole sector is going to continue to explode.

Speaker 1 (04:17):
Can you talk a little bit about Singer in particular
and what characteristics you saw in that company that made
you know, we really have some potential specifically with Singer. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (04:29):
I think when when we made the investment, we looked
at it and said, is this something that's difficult to replicate?
And I think as much as said, well, there's lots
of people that restore porsches, there's lots of people that
restore cars, there's nobody that restores them like Singer and
that's why if you look at every you know, vehicle

(04:50):
seller and reseller globally, if you look at all of them,
lump them all together, Singers number two and average selling
price behind only Bugatti. You know, once you get b
On say ten units twenty units a year, and Singers
you know, in the vicinity of two hundred vehicles per year.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
And that's why the way, that's amazing because Bugatti makes
the car from scratch, like they do it all. Singer
takes another vehicle and then modifies it and they still
get the second highest asking price.

Speaker 4 (05:18):
Yeah, it's a it's a reimagination of an existing Porsche
nine sixty four, which is the vehicle upon which Singer
performs its services in behalf of its customers. You know,
that reimagination process is everything other than what I'd characterize
as the body in white or the frame. So you
maintain the frame and you and you know, everything else

(05:39):
is kind of upgraded to the specifications of the customer.
And the level of specialization or customization is mind boggling.
There are no two Singers that are even close to
being the same. You know, you've got to be a
real nerd to notice the differences. But I think if Hannah,
you know, stepped into a car, sit it, come my gosh,
look at this one.

Speaker 5 (05:58):
This is but you know, the.

Speaker 2 (06:00):
Restore a nerd. You're not a nerd.

Speaker 5 (06:02):
You car nerd, which we all.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
Know is very cool.

Speaker 3 (06:04):
They take it as a badge of honor.

Speaker 5 (06:06):
Yeah it should be.

Speaker 4 (06:07):
But you know, you're like, oh, this is the hounds
tooth seat that you know references this modal right exactly.
And you know, if you look at the ductail spoilerround
the Singer DLS, which is sort of their ultra rare
incredible vehicles, you'd say, well, that you know, you know,
draws some comparisons to a seventy three RS. So there's
lots of you know, references to older Porsches that you know,

(06:29):
bits and pieces that the customer says, well, I'd like
to have.

Speaker 5 (06:31):
That in my car.

Speaker 4 (06:32):
And I think what makes Singer special is that they
do it with an enormous amount of love for the
brand Porsche, an enormous amount of respect for the customer
and what they want. It's not just about slapping something
together and saying here, you know, let's make it work.
Most of these companies that perform this service don't actually

(06:53):
make money.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
But you want to make money with that investment, right, Yeah.

Speaker 5 (06:56):
Yeah, we can. The challenge is getting to scale.

Speaker 1 (06:59):
That's what I was going to ask about, because hasn't
Singer paused production of the nine sixty four and we're
sort of waiting for a nine thirty Turbo and so
the DLS we're also waiting for. So are those pauses
changing how you're looking?

Speaker 2 (07:16):
Wait, by the way, can I just brief pause? I
don't know nearly as much about Singer as the two
of you. Yeah, So while we're asking Tom questions, let's
also explain to me, like what is the DLS?

Speaker 4 (07:27):
What it is that all the all the vehicles that
Singer offers restoration services on are based on the Porsche
nine sixty four, which was manufactured between eighty nine and
ninety four, and each of the vehicles references an older
Porsche different variants, and so the classic was the car
that was best known for Singer, you know, and their customers.

(07:48):
Those of were coming towards the end of that run.
I think in the next eighteen months or so, those
will all be produced. The car that references to nine
thirty Turbo, which is currently characterized as the class Turbo.
That vehicle is in production and deliveries have just started.
So Hannah, I will I will drive mine it good.

Speaker 5 (08:08):
Good in July. Thanks.

Speaker 3 (08:10):
Are you going up the hill?

Speaker 4 (08:12):
No, I don't have my FI license, so I won't
be allowed to drive up the hill, I know, but
I'll drive it on the circuit on the Monday.

Speaker 5 (08:17):
So that's like.

Speaker 2 (08:20):
That's the Steve McQueen, like the widow Maker, right, it's
a widow it was.

Speaker 1 (08:24):
This is only for those who don't know how to
drive exactly exactly.

Speaker 4 (08:27):
You gotta wait for that boost. This is a modern version.
Boost comes on more quickly. It's it's a really very
special special car modern uh traction control and ABS and
some things that you can turn on or off that
allow the vehicle to be driven on wet roads by
an inexperienced driver with with relative safety. You know, within
the bounds of physics. We don't haven't yet invented a

(08:48):
car that can overcome the laws of physics.

Speaker 5 (08:50):
But you know, then.

Speaker 4 (08:51):
There's the DLS Turbo, which is probably you know a
few months away from having its first driveable prototype in
the hands of journalists. And then you know, some other
cars in the queue that will be unveiled, you know,
in the next.

Speaker 5 (09:04):
Year or two. But the cars, the four cars that.

Speaker 4 (09:06):
I mentioned in including DLS which is a full run
that's been fully delivered and is out, those four cars
will take us, you know, through the next couple of
years and beyond. I think the waiting list is still
in the vicinity of three three and a half years.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
So so basically you're saying, look, the model that you
saw when you got involved with the company remains the same.

Speaker 3 (09:28):
Yeah, it's your goal, your intent.

Speaker 5 (09:30):
That's right.

Speaker 4 (09:31):
It's you know, it's to produce something that is beyond
you know, reproach as it relates to the quality. You know,
these have to be super reliable cars. So I have
a DLS that I drove from London to LamaH for
race weekend. That's a long drive sometimes at you know,

(09:52):
relatively rapid pace. Uh, and you know, it's a it's
a flawless experience. I mean, these are you know, these
are cars that you can sit in for six hours.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
And I see here on the internet DLS is for
Dynamics and Lightweighting Studies. That's right, and it's the one
I've seen these like, you know, on social media with
the ridiculously wide haunches.

Speaker 4 (10:11):
Yes, and yeah, this one's even wider than one you're leaving.

Speaker 2 (10:16):
I just don't know enough about that. And in the
world of Ploortia, there's so much to know, and there's
so many acronyms that I sometimes feel like I can't
keep up.

Speaker 5 (10:26):
You can go way down the rabbit hole.

Speaker 3 (10:27):
Yeah, I'm curious.

Speaker 1 (10:28):
You know, you mentioned what's next for Singer, and I
don't expect you to actually say, but is there any
room to go the way of a roof where Singer
would actually build their own cars versus reimagining.

Speaker 5 (10:44):
That's a great question. I think.

Speaker 4 (10:46):
I think the brand would allow Singer to pursue just
about anything it wanted to do. I think, you know,
for the time being, the company is really very focused
on executing as best it can on the strategy of
reimagining Porsches on behalf of its customers. And that's a
great business, you know, are there's a long pipeline of

(11:08):
things that can be done. You know, vehicles that can
be reimagined that I think, you know, would be welcome
by all Porsche enthusiasts. And look, I think the company
knows that not everyone wants a reimagined car. Some are
the purists, They want the seventy three r US exactly
as it was. Others may say, well, now I'd like
to see a different version of that car. What could
be done if you modernize it? And I think that's

(11:31):
there's plenty to do just with that. And our capital
was intended to help the company get to a place
where its production could support the fixed costs and the
business that are necessary to create vehicles of this quality
and with these kinds of finishes.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
And I was wondering about that. How did you get
involved in what kind of investment do you have in Singer?

Speaker 4 (11:50):
Yeah, well, we were asked to refinance a facility that
they had in place from a lender, and you know,
did that and provided some other work and capital facilities
and allowed them to just take the capital, you know,
in the most efficient form possible, while allowing Rob the
founder and Maz the CEO, to really direct the strategy

(12:10):
of the business. They've got a spectacular team of key
executives there and some fantastic engineers that the craftsmen are unbelievable.
I've been to a lot of you know, really high
end vehicle manufacturing facilities and singers. You know, when they
look at the finishes, you look at the body work,

(12:31):
you look at the paint. It's as good as anybody
out there. Gorgeous and and by the way you're starting,
you know, with a company as your reference. In Porsche,
I think does it as well or better than anyone
if you look at the tolerances and Porsche panels, you know,
as compared to some other very very hand automobile companies.
You know, it's really hard to get into where Porsche
is pretty good, build quality, very good.

Speaker 2 (12:53):
But how did they know to ask you? I mean, like,
were you already into Porsche?

Speaker 1 (12:57):
No?

Speaker 4 (12:57):
I mean was I into Porsche's Yeah? I mean I
loved cars, but I grew up not being able to
afford any. My first car was a seventy eight Corolla
SR five hatchback that was nmission of course, yeah.

Speaker 5 (13:10):
Rusting away.

Speaker 3 (13:11):
How much did you pay for that car?

Speaker 5 (13:13):
Zero?

Speaker 4 (13:13):
Because my dad said, if you can get it running,
you can drive it. And so I quickly learned how
to overhaul an engine and do breaks and a series
of other things in the driveway. Not the safest thing
in the world, you know, like in the old days
without jack stands like not smart.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
But I bet you still love driving it.

Speaker 5 (13:30):
Oh yeah, I don't have it anymore. No, No, I
mean yeah, well absolutely, yeah, Like it was.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
Awesome.

Speaker 4 (13:36):
You taught myself how to drive a stick on it
and yeah. But I think you know, when you have
those experiences, you fall in love with cars and you
imagine that it's not that it's not the slowest thing
on the road, and you imagine that it doesn't have
to rush through you know, the door panels. But you know,
as as you get older and into life, you know,
hopefully you can afford something better. And I the weird

(13:56):
thing is, two weeks before the Porsche investment and became available,
our partner in the Hurts investments of firm Culture Tauris,
and one of the founders there is a guy named
Greg O'Hara, and you know, we were just talking and
he's like, is there anything you always wanted but you
wouldn't leave still buy. I'm like, yeah, there's this one
car and he's like, yeah, me too, and he's like,
you know, he said, my thing's a singer. I'm like,

(14:18):
oh my god, that's mine as well. And he's like,
why don't you have one? I'm like, cause I I
just can't let myself do it. It's too special, right,
It's always that thing I held on a platform. And
so literally two weeks later, totally unrelated, I get a
in a meeting or having a barbecue with somebody and
he says, oh, you must be looking at Singer, given
your view on vehicles and you know, this kind of

(14:38):
digital versus analog world. And I said, no, there's no
way Singer needs any financial assistants. They get a multi
year backlog and he's like, no, no, no, they're looking
for some capital. And so we get connected to the
lawyer that was representing him, and one thing led to another.
And what's nice about that is, you know, we've learned
a ton about the space and the industry, and I
think that we've been able to add value and helping

(15:00):
the company think strategically. And what I would say is
that I think Singers now have a view that you know,
maybe it's a little bit more of a luxury brand
than what we originally thought. And with all things luxury,
the goal is sell less for more. So let's not
push the sales higher. Let's push sales, you know, target
sales units lower. Maybe get a little bit additional price,

(15:24):
but make it more exclusive. And I think, you know
that's a really I hate that.

Speaker 3 (15:29):
I won't love it. I love it one time.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
You know, Keanu Reeves makes these arch motorcycles, of course,
and I ran into him as makes a Doukatti World
premiere in Milan a few years ago, and he was
saying he was talking to the CEO, and I kind
of barge in their conversation. He was saying, they're making
another version and the one they sells are like seventy
five grande. I can't really justify that. So I was like, oh, cool,

(15:51):
are you going to make one that's cheaper? And he
said no, it's going to cost twice the price. And
I was like, I'm priced out, all righty.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
I know, well that is interesting because I was going
to ask if you considered Singer to be a luxury
asset for sure, and do you value that differently than
like an infrastructure asset, for instance.

Speaker 4 (16:09):
So infrastructure, you know, you know, in a reasonably low
rate environment like the one we're in now, I mean
it's not as low as it as it was, but
you know, infrastructure assets are command high multiples if the
durability of earnings is very stable. But if we say,
let's compare it to another manufacturing business, it's worth a multiple,
you know, like if a manufacturing business its ten percent

(16:31):
ebitdam margins is worth you know, seven times ebitdes six
seven times ebit. You know, Singers with their margins is
worth you know, mid teens, high teens, which is consistent
with where if you were to graph out not Ferrari,
ferraris a little bit higher because that brand is really
pretty spectacular. But there's a case to be made that

(16:51):
you know, Singer represents one of the very few luxury
brands that are based in the US, and that was
you know, really created in the US, and me Rob
done a great job of bringing that California car ethos
you know, into.

Speaker 5 (17:04):
The business, and.

Speaker 4 (17:07):
I think his ability to create this zeitgeist of you know,
of Singer is is really incredible. And Mas and the
team have done an amazing job of marketing it globally
and trying to do it in a way that that
respects our partners and and you know, at the same time,

(17:27):
you know, makes it a business that can grow and
be profitable.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
This may derail our whole conversation, but I'm going to
ask it anyway, because I'm really fascinated by what you
said about, you know, sort of mentioning and verbalizing that
you had singer on a pedestal basically, and two weeks
later you have an opportunity to get involved. And I
remember in Barrie's conversation you mentioned a friend I think

(18:01):
of your dad's when you were very young, who asked
what you wanted and you told him, and in a
matter of months later, you were You were there, you
were in the Cayman Islands with a boat making the
amount of money that you had said, how often does
this happen to you? And what is this magic that
you are seemingly able to conjure when you speak things?

Speaker 3 (18:24):
And then the universe?

Speaker 4 (18:27):
Yes, it's not a superpower. Everybody has it. It's it's
about manifesting an outcome. You just you know, you have
to be open minded to it that you know there's
a god. It's going to sound super corny, but there's
a really good book called The Secret, and if you
haven't read it, you should read it. That's for everybody listening.

(18:48):
I don't care how successful you are, you should read
the book. And you probably if you're if you happen
to be very successful. You're probably either very luckily lucky
or you're you're already you know, using some of these skills.
I think you have to be open to, you know,
whether we call it the universe or we just call it,
you know, karma, we call it, you know, the coincidences

(19:09):
of life. You have to be open to allowing these
things to come into your sphere. And I think, you know,
as it relates to Singer, that was something we cared about,
and sure enough it presented itself. Racing was something that
we thought would be really interesting and we were like, Okay,
we're not going to go out and buy into an
F one team and pay a really high price where

(19:30):
we own a minority stake and our capital doesn't do anything.
You know, we want to find something where we can
actually make a difference. And sure enough, you know, that
ended up happening. So I do think these things can happen.
It doesn't always work, and sometimes bad things happen, and
you get to figure out why we don't always get
it right. You know, we certainly didn't get everything right
and hurts, but I think we've learned a lot from it.

(19:50):
And as you go through life, whether you're investing or
you know, working in a different job or industry. You
have to take your mistakes as a gift and learn
from them and build on them and try to do
better the next time you go out.

Speaker 5 (20:03):
That's all we can do.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
So how much of I mean the investment in Singer
and in Revology and Yoda, those have to be different
than the other, like purely business investments you make right
because you love this product.

Speaker 4 (20:19):
It's a different The standard's the same, Yeah, the standard
is we've got to make a good return. Singer will be,
you know, a good, very.

Speaker 5 (20:28):
Good investment for us. Revology will be a very good
investment for us.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
You know.

Speaker 4 (20:32):
On on that topic, the reason that we pursued Revology
is we felt that there was an opportunity for them
to become one of the very first companies to pursue
production under the Fast Act in the US, which is
the formerly known as the Small Vehicle Manufacturer Law, which
you know, my guess is most.

Speaker 5 (20:51):
People are like, what the heck is that?

Speaker 3 (20:53):
Yeah, please enlighten us.

Speaker 4 (20:54):
So the fast Act has now been fully you know,
written and put into law. It is a provision that
allows a small vehicle manufacturer, which is less than five
thousand units a year to go to an original OEM
and get a license for IP for a vehicle that's
over twenty five years old, that small vehicle manufacturer that

(21:15):
can then reimagine and re manufacture that original car and
re imagine means tolerance exterior toalancers, tolerances within ten percent,
which is pretty wide, you know, pretty wide variants and
interior that can be entirely new. The only requirement is
that the drive train must be current era emissions compliant.
And if you if you achieve all those things, there's

(21:38):
no safety hym alligation, so you can use the safety
requirements of the original vehicle and you get a new
vin So now everyone says, well, that's much lower cost
than because you could start with a carbon tub. So
you could say, I'm going to make a you know, nineteen,
you know, seventy Ford Bronco start with a carbon tub.
Very easy to manufacture off a carbon tup versus one

(22:00):
of the rolling chassis that you can buy because you
have a really rigid frame, it's you know, everything's perfectly square.
The problem is you've got to go through the process
of getting current your emissions compliant drive train and then
incorporating it into that and then getting all the engineering
right and making sure that you have a good, safe
product even though you don't you know, you don't may
not have the requirements.

Speaker 5 (22:19):
It's still and Ford could say, well, Ford's got to
believe in you enough to allow you to do it.
And I use Ford as an example.

Speaker 4 (22:25):
You use any any oem a car over twenty five
years old, which brings you, by the way, it's scary
as it's to say, you know, into the late nineties,
so there's a whole plathora of really cool cars that
you could do well.

Speaker 2 (22:34):
And by the way, it's interesting that you chose the
Bronco because I know a lot of people are skeptical
of these resto mod companies because there's a whole wave
of Bronco knockoff garages among them that fall apart. And
Hannah and I talk about this a lot because I'm like,
I'm like, hey, Revology is a different story because they're

(22:55):
building it from the ground up. They have actual engineers
that used to work at Ford's Special Vehicle Unit, who
are you know, have built their own factory in Orlando,
so so help us. Obviously you're gonna you're obviously you're
talking about to convince.

Speaker 5 (23:09):
Me, yes, yes, I would say we've we have looked at.

Speaker 4 (23:15):
A great number of and I'm going to use the
word restomode as a non pejorative term to say, you know,
it captures that whole and to clarify and yeah, and
just say, like anyone that takes an old car and
makes it new, newer, you know, reimagines it, rebuilds it,
whatever you want, however you want to describe it. They're
not all created equal, and we've looked at a lot

(23:36):
of them. And I would say, I'll say two things. One,
Revology does things very differently than nearly all, not all,
but nearly all of the other manufacturers out there, and
they do some things that are in fact different than
every other, uh one of those companies. The second thing
is that for all these businesses, you know, they take
a deposit from the customer, they then go up of

(23:57):
the car. There's there's a sequence of payments and that
I delivered car. When you take a deposit from a
customer upfront, it's you know, you put that on your
balance sheet and the account is working capital.

Speaker 5 (24:06):
And they will all say, we.

Speaker 4 (24:07):
Don't have debt well, you don't have debt, but you
have a payment that you owe, or you have a
product future product that you ow to the customer. It's
the same thing as debt. When you deliver the customer,
you've got to repay it by way of you know,
releasing that off your balance sheet. And when we saw
the huge explosion and demand for these cars post COVID
and kind of late twenty through you know, mid early
to mid twenty twenty two, demand goes through the roof,

(24:29):
all these deposits flow in, they build the cars, then
the deposits leave the balance sheet. What happens, Well, it's
like you have to repay a bunch of debt and
if you haven't played, if you haven't planned for that,
that release of working capital is very, very difficult to
manage for a small company, and so a lot of
these businesses out there are struggling to remain solvent in

(24:51):
the context of a world where demand is shrunk, you know,
kind of coming back to trend line, which means sales
for the next over the course of the last year
and probably for the next year or two will be
lower than a steady state number of sales.

Speaker 2 (25:04):
So it's a target rich environment for you.

Speaker 4 (25:06):
It is, but most of these companies don't. They're not
going to make it because they haven't invested in the
business and they don't have a differentiated product. So I
would agree with Hannah that, you know, for many of
these these companies that are they're really just large garages
and they've they've got economies of scale in the sense
that they're doing the same thing over and over, but

(25:26):
they haven't done the engineering work. Revology is in fact, very,
very different. And Hannah, if you were to, you know,
visit Revology, just do.

Speaker 5 (25:35):
One simple thing. Just close the door.

Speaker 4 (25:37):
Oh really, just close the door own. I own two
nineteen sixties Mustangs. Both are original that have been restored.
They're in great condition. But if you close the door
of those cars and you close the door of a Revology, that's.

Speaker 5 (25:49):
Not the same thing.

Speaker 3 (25:50):
I look forward to doing that.

Speaker 4 (25:52):
Yeah, it's good, and it's a good you know, I mean,
and then it's you know, when you put it into gear,
what happens, right, you get that lurch against your brake.
Pet you know, we all we've all driven those old cars,
and that's very Yeah, it's very common. I mean, I
gotta you know, I always joke. My wife's got a
fifty sixty Bird and I'm like, it's the most deadly
vehicle I've ever driven. I mean, it's a complete death trap.

(26:13):
It's got a metal steering wheel that's right about you know,
jaw high.

Speaker 3 (26:16):
You know, it makes you feel alive.

Speaker 5 (26:19):
You feel very alive, that's for sure.

Speaker 4 (26:21):
But those are you know, those are very realistic experience
that are consistent with the time that those vehicles were
engineered and made, because you know, look, it was just
a different era. It was this seventy year old cars.

Speaker 5 (26:32):
The Revology vehicles don't feel like that.

Speaker 4 (26:34):
They don't drive like that. They don't they're not durable
like that. They're they're modern pieces of machinery in every sense.
They just look old and that's what makes them so fantastic.

Speaker 2 (26:44):
So how did you find? Tom Scarpello is the guy
who presents the car, He's the founder. He also presents
the car on the Leno clip, And if I were
doing it, I would sell it like hotcakes, you know.
But he's clearly an engineer because he's going into very
minute detail of like how he created the door handle.

Speaker 4 (27:03):
You know, if you were the same Tom, you know,
is his personality. It's not the same as a rob
At singer, but they're similar in the sense that they
don't sell their product.

Speaker 5 (27:12):
The product sells the product.

Speaker 4 (27:14):
And they just tell you their vision. You know, each
comes in from a slightly different perspective. And rob as
an artist and very much into the aesthetics, and Tom,
you know, as an engineer and very much into what
makes his cars truly spectacular from an engineering perspective. Both
there's lots of overlap, by the way, with each of them,
and so I think, did you book up with them

(27:35):
at the same time, No, it was later we we
developed a thesis more fully that these that these cars
that inspire passion would continue to grow an interest, and
we went out looking for another company to invest in,
in one that we thought we could help become the
first and potentially only, you know, fast act manufacturer, and
Revology was the only one that we found that that

(27:58):
that we thought had what it would take to be
able to produce those vehicles.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
But there's no one else taking advantage of that long.

Speaker 5 (28:03):
I mean, there's others that will try.

Speaker 4 (28:05):
We didn't find anybody that we felt had everything it takes,
and I don't want to, you know, out of respect
for what Revology's done. I won't I won't say chapter
and verse what it takes, but it's it's a lot,
it's a lot of capital, it's a lot of engineering expertise,
a lot of design expertise, and it's and it is
a fantastic relationship with whichever OEM you know you'd like
to get a license agreement, they have to believe in you.

(28:26):
It's sort of like, you know, any business relationship, you
got to make sure your counterparty is going to be
there and be around. And we hope that part of
what we bring to the table is the financial stability
to allow the counterparts to say, Okay, these guys will.

Speaker 5 (28:39):
Be here and they can do a good job and
the customers don't need to worry about the deposits.

Speaker 3 (28:42):
What is in it for Ford?

Speaker 1 (28:44):
Obviously there's a licensing agreement that I'm sure is it
very lucrative? Is it a little bit lucrative? You know,
how does this benefit forward?

Speaker 4 (28:53):
I think I think it would be fair to say
that it's very beneficial to the brand. You know, you're celebrating,
you know, a vehicle that is decades old. Obviously, you know,
whatever vehicle they decide to do with, whichever OEM they
decide to do it with. You know, you're celebrating that
original vehicle in a very special way, and it brings

(29:16):
it to a group of consumers that really aren't going
to do that on their own. You know, the person
who buys a Revology Mustang, you know, into into six
figures for.

Speaker 5 (29:29):
The car fully out three hundred.

Speaker 4 (29:30):
Right, Yeah, they're not out shopping for It's not like
they're choosing that over you know.

Speaker 3 (29:36):
It's not cannibalizing anything nothing.

Speaker 4 (29:39):
In fact, they're more likely you know, to bring up
their local dealer and ask for the new g T
three Mustang, which they won't get because they are none available.
But that, but I think there it attaches them to
a brand. They're probably more likely to go out in
auction and look for, you know, one of the last
two generations at GT forties. I just think that, you know,

(30:00):
all of a sudden you say, oh, I've got this
thing and i'd like to have, you know, the OEM's
version of a great car, you know, the kind of
greatest of great cars as well. So I think it's
very very beneficial to the brand. I think it enhances
the brand. You know, I would tell you that in
the case of Singer, there's been luxury brand businesses you
know that that have taken an interest in Singer and said,

(30:21):
you know, there's there's got to be, you know, some
value here that can be unlocked. And I think that
shows that you are in fact creating something that's luxury.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
And you you mean like carrying or LVMH is I
just mean that I won't interesting specifically, that's what you mean.

Speaker 4 (30:35):
Yeah, in the realm of non auto luxury type companies,
and you know, because they whether it's watches or what
have you, that say, you know, this is something that's
really interesting, and so you can think of really creative
partnerships to pursue that celebrate both brands at the same time.
And there's lots of that in racing and an auto
generally speaking, right, I mean you look at the brands

(30:56):
that are on the side of modern race cars, you know,
particularly in F one, which I think from a brand.

Speaker 3 (31:01):
Value, I want to ask you about Formula one.

Speaker 4 (31:03):
Yeah, I mean F one is it's fantastic. It's I
watch it every weekend, like it's not like it's a
great surprise how things shake out. But I think what's
great about it is that you are you know you're
watching these masterful pieces of machinery. You know that you
are attached to something that's it's about the overall experience,

(31:24):
like going enough one race isn't really about like being
glued to the race. It's about everything else that goes
on there. And I happen to think that the most
underappreciated racing brand in the world is WEK World in
Derman's Championship, where we have an investment in one of
the teams.

Speaker 5 (31:41):
And I'll tell you why.

Speaker 4 (31:42):
I say that people watch sports and they get attached
to sports for two reasons. You know, it's the tribalism element,
where you can attach to something that makes you feel
part of a community. Okay, I'll get to the tribalism
in a second. And what WEC has the second is
uncertainty of outcome. Okay, there is no sporting event in
the world there's more than certainly of out come. On
the twenty four hours of Lama, you don't have the
slightest idea who's going to win that race. You can

(32:04):
be twenty three hours into watching it you have no
idea is going to win. There's nothing else that goes
on for that duration, maybe cricket, but you know that
that has zero certainty on how things are going to
play out. And on the tribalism side, what's happened with
the new l m D and l M D H
entrance is it's brought in all the OEMs. So you
have the major major manufacturers are getting involved and putting

(32:28):
cars forward.

Speaker 5 (32:29):
You know, you've got Ferrari Portie.

Speaker 4 (32:33):
For Ford in the GT three series, Lamborghini, We've got
Cadillac in WEC and and the list goes on and on,
and others that are lined up to come in that
that I won't name because I'm not sure whether it's
public or not, but it's going to be fantastic, right
And so you've got this incredible grid. By the way,
you can be a customer as we are currently, meaning

(32:53):
you know, you go buy a car and hire somebody
to race it for you, and you can actually get
into the race, not as a driver, but as a
as a you know, as a as a participant and
bring your own sponsors. And I just think it's an
incredibly undervalued assets coming to CODA for Labor Day weekend
that encourage people to check it out.

Speaker 5 (33:10):
It's pretty cool.

Speaker 2 (33:11):
Twenty four hours of CODA.

Speaker 4 (33:12):
CODA is going to be six if I'm not mistaken,
like I see. So there's different races, different durations.

Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yeah, so I watch only Moto GP and sometimes Formula One,
but I don't have time to I don't have time
to devote any more than that because I'm already watching
you know, practice qualifying sprint race.

Speaker 5 (33:31):
But it's only eight races a year.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
I only know Lama and Daytona.

Speaker 4 (33:36):
Yeah, so Daytona's part of IMSA and Seabring's part of IMSA,
and then but you know there's a race at SPA.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
Wait, so those are different than we different is It's
very confusing, I know, be underappreciated.

Speaker 4 (33:47):
Maybe that's why I think WEK is like International imps
US and WEC has the you know, it's one of
the three race races in the world is Indy, Lama
and Monaco, and you know they call that the Triple
Crown on right.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
And race Monico is more exciting in WECK form than
it is in F one form.

Speaker 4 (34:03):
We don't race Monaco, but I promise you the races
are more exciting than than Monico has been the last
few years. But you know, to see a race at
SPA and you know the cars are you know, bombing
around for six hours NonStop, so roughly four hours as
long as a as an F one race. That that's
pretty incredible event, and it is. It is very special.
You know, Imla is always a special event. Fuji by

(34:26):
Rain and Qatar and sal Palla this year as well.
So lots of really cool destined obviously, you know, Circuit
of the Americas in Austin and so you've got all
of You've got all those great circuits and there will
be more to come. But I think, as I said earlier,
what really makes it fun to watch is the involvement
of these great manufacturers. It's true sports car racing. In
many cases, you can or will soon be able to

(34:50):
buy a variant of the wet car for the road.
It won't be a hybrid, but you know, I know
at least two manufacturers that are going to offer the
vehicles for sale.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
On a second they I don't understand exactly, but don't
they have like a more stock car entrant and then
Total Prototype and then.

Speaker 4 (35:09):
Yep, so there's more stock cars like the GT three class, right,
So that's almost exactly what you can drive in the road.

Speaker 2 (35:14):
So if you can buy the Mustang, if you get
the g T gives.

Speaker 4 (35:17):
You Farley gives you the nod. God, God, I love
Jim Farley'd love to get that car. The you know,
in the case of of Porsche, it's the g T
three R S, which is a tough get, but it's
a very special car. I mean it's a road car
with effectively DRS. That's pretty cool.

Speaker 5 (35:34):
And then you've got the LM H and l M
d H classes, which are the hypercar class.

Speaker 2 (35:40):
That's what you guys are in.

Speaker 5 (35:41):
That's what we're in.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
So how do you create value out of this admittedly
obscure racing series for Americans?

Speaker 5 (35:50):
Is the key.

Speaker 4 (35:50):
It's it's got a good fill. I mean, you know,
you got if you were to go to Lama, you
would come away with a very different appreciation of.

Speaker 2 (36:00):
Everybody says that.

Speaker 3 (36:00):
People yes, but that, but I mean no, I haven't everybody.
I don't want to go. No, it's not spectator friendly.
It rains every year.

Speaker 4 (36:10):
It's holy your camp, let's be honest. Okay, Hannah is
not going to end up at Laman a tent. Okay,
Like that's probably not the way you're going to experience it.
And the people who do that love it.

Speaker 5 (36:21):
But I but what that is not for me.

Speaker 4 (36:22):
What you what we do is we get like, you know,
really nice RVs. If you want to stand at State.

Speaker 2 (36:27):
I could see Hannah there in like an airstream like nice.

Speaker 1 (36:30):
It's we work that out then I will be happy
to intend. But the fact remains, though this is so
European and really Formula one has grown in the US.

Speaker 4 (36:41):
But it's taking because well two things. I think we'll
come back to that in a second. The way you
do it is through promotion. And so you know, why
do we have Brady brand on the side of our
car because you know we pick up you know, tens
of millions of impressions every race because you know Tom's
involved in it. You know it's Hurts involved in it. Well,

(37:01):
because it's great content. I mean it is really cool content.
You know, people walk through an airport and they see
one of our cars sitting there, like that's kind of
a cool thing to run into. They always attract a
giant crowd. You're creating great content, great interest that we
run promotions for the customers to gain access and go
to Lama. We had a bunch of them there this year.
That's a really neat thing. All of a sudden, You've
got a trip across the Atlantic to watch a race,
and I promise you everybody who goes to Lama comes

(37:23):
away with an incredible impression. Ask Lebron James what he
thought after he went last year. I won't spoil it,
but I promise you.

Speaker 5 (37:29):
Will get again.

Speaker 3 (37:30):
How long did he stay at the track?

Speaker 4 (37:32):
He was there for the entirety of the first day,
so okayac and it was you know, Tom's been there
for the full weekend.

Speaker 5 (37:39):
It's a it's a grip.

Speaker 2 (37:40):
Were there. Were you there a couple weeks ago?

Speaker 4 (37:42):
I was, Yeah, we stayed for the whole time. You know,
being out at the end of the Mozon straight, you
know when the cars are under heavy breaking at that turn,
that right hand or at the end of one of
his canes and the brakes are glowing bright red and
yes it's drizzling out and you know, you get a
cocktail on your hand at two in the morning. It's
not the worst thing in the world.

Speaker 2 (37:59):
No tall way of Stella.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
By the way, this reminds me Tom, do you run
your own Instagram. No, well, I saw it on your instagra.

Speaker 4 (38:07):
I have a public Instagram that we created for the team,
because there's a funny story about that.

Speaker 5 (38:13):
I have a private Instagram.

Speaker 4 (38:14):
I've got like a whopping you know, one hundred followers
or something, and and I started getting all these follower requests.
Somebody figured out I think I had been tagged in something,
and so I got all these follow requests and I
get this notification from Instagram that said your account's under review.
And so I'm like, oh, the gift to give all
this information, give all the information. And fifteen minutes later,
like your account is permanently deleted, and I'm like, what happened?

(38:35):
They said you violated customer or community standards and I
was like, what does that mean? They said, well, you're
impersonating a public figure.

Speaker 2 (38:43):
What impersonating yourself?

Speaker 4 (38:45):
Yeah, I guess, And because in one city in England,
I'm a public figure, so and so I had to
delete all the requests and then we created the other account.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
But yeah, anyway, the city is Birmingham, by the ways.
Who because you own a soccer team there.

Speaker 4 (39:00):
Yeah, yeah, our firm made an investment in a Nighthead
and I'm the chairman of the club.

Speaker 5 (39:04):
And that's a fun thing.

Speaker 4 (39:05):
By the way, it's back the same analog digital thing.
It's kind of the ultimate form of analog entertainment. It's
why we, you know, got into sport, and cars and
racing are the same thing. But I listen, I think
that there's a lot of there's a lot of things
that draw people into this and make it interesting.

Speaker 5 (39:22):
And you asked about F one.

Speaker 4 (39:23):
Yes, Drive to Survive had an unbelievable impact on it.
But I was in a meeting gosh, it was two
years ago now with an F one team principle. We
were talking about this exact topic and the rise of
F one and it was following the Goodwood Festival of Speed,
where my son and I go every year, and I
told him he could attend the meeting because he wanted
to see this. You know, we get to go see

(39:44):
the whole facility. And he's sitting in the back of
the room and I said, don't say a word, and
so we're going through the meeting and then I said, well,
I think there's one other thing that led to rise
in popularity of F one. And I said, if it's okay,
I want to ask my son for his input. So
I turned to him and he looks at me and
he goes, is it okay for me to speak now?
I'm like, yes, it's it gave you to speak now.
And I said, Jack, you know, how many do you

(40:04):
watch F one? He said every weekend watches Qualifying watches
the Race. I said, how many episodes of Drive to
Survive you've seen? He said zero? And I said, well,
what got you into it? And he sort of sheepishly said,
you know the game, the video game. And something occurred
to me and I'd heard him talk about this before.
You know, if you're a hockey fan, you can play
street hockey or football. Plan you can sidelot football or baseball.

(40:27):
You can play whiffle ball or you.

Speaker 5 (40:28):
Know, soccer. You just have anything round right racing.

Speaker 4 (40:32):
It's very hard to make the connection as a fan
and the way that young people have become fans by
playing the sport.

Speaker 5 (40:40):
These games are so realistic that they can. And I
will tell you having.

Speaker 4 (40:44):
Had my son, and you know, with me in a
car and a track in the right seat, he knows
the track better than I do, and I'm the one driving.
He knows my break points better. He knows when I
should be on the gas better than I can, because
he's driven the circuit let's say, a hundred times to
my five, and on a SIM and even though his
sim is relatively basic, his his intuition for the track,

(41:07):
even though he's not been in the seat, is pretty incredible.
That connection to the sport is incredible. And I think
what other race series have lost out on is the
inability to develop a product that is that realistic. And
they should because gaming's not going anywhere, and it's a
great way to draw fans in. And as much as
you say you don't have time for another race series,
we all do. We all have more time to consume,

(41:29):
you know, these types of media. And by the way,
you know, with the rise of AI, it's going to
continue to create more and more time quote unquote for people,
which is why we'll look for more experiential things to do. So,
you know, I think, you know, we're at the beginning
stages of a continued, long rise and the interest in
sport broadly defined, or at least I hope that's the
case given some of our investments. But you know, I

(41:51):
think all this stuff is fantastic to see young people
engaged in vehicles that are not the most modern, not
the fast accelerating, not the technological marvels that we get
out of you know, today's key EV makers, but you know,
but have something that's really pretty incredible.

Speaker 5 (42:09):
Is is great.

Speaker 1 (42:10):
I think I'm very curious you mentioned very briefly hybrids.
Obviously these cars racing are hybrid vehicles. And we've talked
a lot about how you're going into ices. As things
tend to move toward electric vehicles for commuting, where do
hybrids fall into that spectrum. I used to think they're

(42:35):
a bit of a band aid, a bridge towards evs.

Speaker 3 (42:37):
Now it seems like maybe they're here to stay.

Speaker 5 (42:39):
Buie.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
We both spent the weekend driving hybrids or last weekend
I was in uh driving the new hybrid, Yeah, and
I was this weekend driving the Corvette Era, which.

Speaker 4 (42:53):
Yeah, that Corvette's amazing. That Porsche is incredible. There's lots
of other great hybrids. It's a difficult technology to master,
but the best manufacturers clearly are getting it right. I
think hybrids are here to stay because I think the
transition to evs is just to get all of the
rolling stock converted over.

Speaker 5 (43:10):
It's going to take a long time. Is that where
it's going. I do believe that that's where we will
end up.

Speaker 4 (43:16):
It's going to be complicated by the fact that it's
going to be hard to get enough electricity available, you know,
with the competing excess demand coming not just from consumers
and the growth there and households, but also electric vehicles
and other forms of mobility AI and compute power. So
you know, there's a lot of reasons why the transition
may be slower, and to the extent that it is

(43:37):
in fact slower, hybrids.

Speaker 5 (43:40):
Play a crucial role there. They also offer a.

Speaker 4 (43:42):
Driving experience that is not as abrupt as going into
an ev directly, so you know, for the average consumer,
it's an easier way for them to get into it.
And look, I mean from a performance perspective, you get
a lot, you get the you know, you still get
many of the attributes of an IC that we all love,
right the sound, the vibration, and you get the excess performance.

(44:05):
My personal view on all of that is, I think
we've kind of we've more or less reached the limits
of performance. Yes, cars will get faster both in acceleration
and top speed.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
They will, but who cares it doesn't really mean speed
has become commoditized, right, It doesn't matter if you can
go zero to sixty and two and a half seconds,
because everyone can.

Speaker 4 (44:24):
My tussle was, you know, one to nine, which means
that you when you're in an intersection, you can go
sixty before you hit the other crosswalk, right, Like, you
don't really need to go any faster than that.

Speaker 2 (44:34):
But it's not as much fun as going zero to
sixty and six seconds in something from the seventies and.

Speaker 4 (44:40):
The if you're well the T bird, that's, yeah, that's
exciting eleven seconds. But if you're rowing through the gears
and you want to get every shift right, and more importantly,
if you're under heavy breaking and you're getting your down
shifts right, like, that's a special feeling, and not everyone
cares about that.

Speaker 5 (44:55):
I suspect that people.

Speaker 4 (44:56):
Listening to this probably you know, nodding their heads in
a sent that's why we drive these old cars. And
there's a whole plethora of old cars that I would,
you know, love to own and drive regularly. I don't
have the time to do it, but I just think
it'd be fantastic, And I don't think that's going away
you know, so I think there's a spot for all
of this. And listen, it's not the worst thing in

(45:17):
the world for these old cars to be repurposed into
you know, and and restored into vehicles that are maintained.
And I say that because, like, you know, why do
we want to throw everything away? There's no reason for that.
You know, they could be something to bring great joy
and can be reimagined, re restored, what have you.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
I recently talked to at Greenwich concoor. I went to
a really cool showing and a bunch of the guys
there had c two corvettes and they all said, it's
like driving a truck, Like it's not a great driving experience. Yeah,
so if someone could reimagine that.

Speaker 5 (45:52):
Vehicle that that would be pretty amazing.

Speaker 4 (45:54):
The one thing I'd say on the new evs is
they are actually a step stone to fully autonomous mobility.
Like that's really what they represent. And I know there's
you know, for a last year and a half, there's
been lots of naysayers and the tides turned a little
bit on that. There's been some positive articles recently, but like,
if you really doubt how close we are get in

(46:17):
a Tesla with the most updated beta version of the
self driving software and tell me we're not close. It's
years away, not decades away, if not closer than that.
And the reason that evs play an important role is
you really can't have an IC or a hybrid that
autonomously moves people.

Speaker 5 (46:36):
And when we get to full autonomy, that is ecologically
by far the Holy grill, that's the best place.

Speaker 2 (46:43):
It's eficient in terms of safety.

Speaker 5 (46:45):
I mean that safety.

Speaker 2 (46:46):
To me, that's the biggest thing because how many people
die in car accidents. You know, we talk about all
the other things that kill you, and car accidents are
way up there at.

Speaker 5 (46:55):
Specially top of the list, especially for young people.

Speaker 4 (46:58):
And so you know, when we move that way, there's
lots of we spent some time and the lots of
economic advantages to.

Speaker 5 (47:05):
Get unlocked if we can.

Speaker 4 (47:06):
If we can figure that out, AI will certainly hasten
you know, the arrival those things.

Speaker 5 (47:11):
But again that what does that do?

Speaker 4 (47:12):
It frees up time to do other things, if your
commute time, remember most people don't live in big urban
areas like we do. And and it probably drives yourself
to work because she's la, Yes, I.

Speaker 5 (47:21):
Did you know? So we we don't.

Speaker 4 (47:22):
And you know, but elsewhere in the world people drive
themselves to work, So it's lost time. I think it's
forty two minutes or fifty minutes a day for the
average American worker. You know, if you are working in
that time and you're productive, you know, then you you
can free up time elsewhere. Maybe every Friday is off,
or maybe Fridays every Friday is a half day. Well,
what are you going to do with that time? Well,
maybe you're restoring an old vehicle yourself, or maybe you're

(47:44):
driving an older So I.

Speaker 2 (47:45):
Could sleep for fun, because I do drive an hour
and a half. Yeah, back and forth in Westchester, and
on a lot of days, I'm so wiped out. I
have a couple of little kids. I just want to sleep,
and I still have to stay awake and brave the
traffic up the major DTA, And it's that's that's what
I would do.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
What is the biggest obstacle right now? You say we're close, Tom.
Is it a technology thing, Is it a money thing?

Speaker 5 (48:09):
Is it a legal regulatory Yeah?

Speaker 4 (48:11):
I think that it really depends on the regulatory environment
we have. I'd be foolish to say anything other than that,
there's no question that the technology is safer than humans today.
It's already achieved that, like it's not, it's not really debatable.
The cases where there's an accident make all the headlines,
but we don't. You know, we don't make front page
news every time somebody does in a car the United States,

(48:31):
and it happens unfortunately, many many, many many times per day.
And so you know, the cruises of the world, the
way moss of the world, the testas of the world
have already done.

Speaker 5 (48:41):
Better than a human.

Speaker 4 (48:42):
They will continue to do better than humans, and so
we will have safer vehicles. The big thing that's standing
the way right now is you know that getting the
technology to the point where it's really useful in that
you know, those those key edge cases and then you know,
how do you roll out that that rolling stuff to
make it available to move people around? So it's coming.

(49:03):
You know, it's a good thing. I don't think it's
I don't think we all need to be afraid of it.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
The charging infrastructure is my big problem. I mean, it'll
last last week. I had a great time in this
GMC hummer last week and it has like four hundred
miles of range, But I got it down to zero,
and when I was looking for charging stations they were
all like broken or like no longer on anyway. I
think the infrastructure is what really needs to happen.

Speaker 5 (49:28):
Yeah, it's got to get better.

Speaker 4 (49:30):
There's also you were you know, I think again we
come back to what will they actually be used for.
It's the moving people from point A to point B
on regular routes, so that's your commuting work. You're never
going to run out of charge if you have a
you know, think if you have a gas station in
your home, which is really what you have when you
own an EV and you install the charging.

Speaker 5 (49:47):
Hardware, so you know, we'll get past that.

Speaker 4 (49:49):
The biggest hurdle, if you will, to chart new charging
technology is the is the electricity infrastructure.

Speaker 5 (49:57):
It's not that companies aren't willing to install it, they
can't pull the power that they need.

Speaker 2 (50:09):
Let's talk about a little bit about cars that you like,
because I thought the Masters in Business that you did
was really inspirational because you tell your origin story and
you're not someone who was born on third base, right,
you had to work to get there, and you mentioned
the Corolla and you couldn't afford to get anything else.
But eventually you go to you know, credit Sueez, you

(50:30):
go to Goldman Sachs. You start your own shop and
now you have the financial wherewithal to pick up a
few of those things. And you know, it's like collecting art,
it's not so what have you got that you like?
And also do you do you buy them as an
investment or do you buy them because you just really
they speak to your heart.

Speaker 4 (50:51):
Now, I buy what I want to drive and own
for a long period of time, but I don't. I
haven't gone bananas and building out a collection, and I've
still my Holy Grail cars other than Singers still on
my list because it's good motivation for me. It's just
the way that I maybe my brain works and what
causes me to be motivated. So you know what I
like to own an early seventies you know, Daytona Spider.

Speaker 5 (51:15):
Yeah, that's like way up the list.

Speaker 4 (51:18):
The car for me that was my Everyone kind of
had their car as a teenager, and I had one
car that was like I thought was the greatest thing
ever ever ever. I just thought it was the most
amazing vehicle and it passed me walking home from soccer
practice one day in my hometown of Franklin, Massachusetts on

(51:38):
Lincoln Street, and it was a Kuontash and I couldn't
believe I saw it. And so there were two things
that I that I had always seen. One was the
sixty minute special on the Cuntash, which if you haven't watched,
you should watch. It was an incredible segment. I watched
it so much that the VHF tape like just wore out.
And the other was obviously the opening sequence and Cannonball

(52:02):
run right, which is just you know, like you see that,
You're like, how is that not the greatest thing ever.
I remember talking to my son about favorite cars and
he's got his favorites and I said, no, but the
Coontash is so special and he's like, oh, Lamborghini.

Speaker 5 (52:14):
Dad.

Speaker 4 (52:14):
Really'm like yeah, And so I said, all right. Well,
we went to a car show and it was an
outdoor show and we were coming up. I said, okay,
there's five coon Tashes over there, and he's like where,
and I said over here, come on, let's walk over.
And we're walking over and he doesn't say anything for
like ten seconds of walking. He just looks at me
and he goes, Okay, I get it, and I'm like, yeah,
like it's like a space ship sitting there right here.
It is, you know, you know, fifty plus years later

(52:36):
and it still looks so unbelievable. So that's one that
would be incredible to own, like a you know, early eighties.

Speaker 2 (52:42):
Oh you haven't got one. No, no, no, dude, there
was a time when those were going for like thirty grand.

Speaker 1 (52:46):
No no.

Speaker 4 (52:46):
I remember, like right after the financial crisis, really good examples.
We're just over one hundred grand, and I remember looking
at someone, I'm like, I really should buy this, Like
I've always want to own this car, and I don't
think it's ever going to be this price again. It
was a really by the way, bought a zillion things
to them and made more money than buying the car.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
But you were right, isn't that when you started your business?

Speaker 5 (53:06):
Was when I started my b So you were buying things.
I was buying things. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (53:09):
I don't know if I but we didn't buy a
lot of things that had tenfold returns in this period
of time. But there's a lot of other cars out there.
I mean, I've got you know, there's some great examples
that I have today. I have a sevent eighteen spider
RS that I just got. It was one of the
first that came into the US. Like, that's a really
special car. Yes, it's a really Porsche. I think just

(53:31):
hit the ball out of the park on that one,
because it's it's a great driver's car.

Speaker 5 (53:36):
It's not the fastest car in the road, but man,
it's got to be one of the most fun.

Speaker 4 (53:40):
And that size. It's a great size vehicle. It's not
quite as big as the new nine to elevens are.

Speaker 5 (53:45):
I really love it.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
So Ferrari doesn't make a car anymore with a stick.
The Corvette doesn't come with a stick anymore, at least
as far as we know. The new nine to elevens
that Hannah drove right, none of those kinds.

Speaker 1 (53:58):
But I think it's I think of Manu, all gearbox
is coming on a higher variant.

Speaker 2 (54:02):
But why do you think these extra special.

Speaker 3 (54:05):
Vehicle not on the hybrid but on the nine nine
two two.

Speaker 2 (54:08):
Well, you know, I have One of the things about
the Corvette that I was driving is it's so fast
that I can barely keep the car out of triple digits.
I'm not sure if that'd be a good excuse when
I get pulled over but I just can't. If I
had a stick, it would make it much easier to
drive slower. You know, why do you think these super
luxury brands don't put out.

Speaker 5 (54:29):
I don't think there's the demand for it. I think
that's why.

Speaker 4 (54:31):
I mean, like, there's just aren't as many people that
want that, And I think that's why we see the
older cars, you know, generate such interest. I mean, you
know you've ever driven like an early seventies Alpha Romeo,
Like those are not fast cars, those are awesome to drive,
like this sound, you know, the feel of the car.
Those are great, great, great cars to drive. You know,

(54:53):
there are lots and lots of examples of great cars
with manual transmissions to drive, and no other one's really inexpensive,
you know, late eight Ease, Mazda are seven.

Speaker 2 (55:02):
I've I'm fascinated by the engine because it's darnt.

Speaker 4 (55:05):
Like that's a great No, I don't, but it's it's
on the list of things that like would be great.
This is the downside of being a New York City residence.
Like for like I got like, you know, one spot
in the garage for like, you know, something nice and
it's stupid. How much money you have to pay to
like have a protected place in your garage. Someday I
won't live in New York and I'll have more cars.

Speaker 5 (55:27):
But you know, I think the.

Speaker 4 (55:29):
You know, then when the ones you do buy for collection,
they got you because you're in New York and it's
too expensive. But I think, you know, it's sort of
an endless list of what would be amazing to own.
There just are so many cars. And I actually think
that the list of vehicles that that could be reimagined
where you have all the styling and aesthetics of something old,

(55:50):
but with the conveniences of of a of a more
modern car. And what I mean by conveniences are like
you don't have to worry about it breaking down right.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
It'll run right as traction control.

Speaker 5 (56:01):
Yeah, as long as you can turn it off. I
think those are great.

Speaker 2 (56:03):
Do you think that's a long list. I mean I
could think of a few. Obviously, the C two Corvette
is one that I think of, you know, the Mustang
you're already doing. I don't think there are really that many.

Speaker 4 (56:15):
Oh I could go through it. I mean I think
you could do. I'd love to see a Lamborghini that
was more that was more reliable, user friendly.

Speaker 5 (56:24):
I can't imagine little.

Speaker 2 (56:24):
I've never been into kuntash, but I bet you it's
hard to get in and out and dry.

Speaker 4 (56:27):
Yeah, and the wheel well's not ideal, but it's like,
that's a great one that could be really really special
because imagine if it were carbon monocoque with carbon body, right,
it just be and take that motor and modern technology.
You talk about something with eight hundred horsepower that weighs
hundreds of pounds less. That's going to be a just
absolutely ridiculous car. And you know, you do bigger rims

(56:50):
and smaller aspect ratio tires and there's a lot that
could be done there.

Speaker 5 (56:56):
And I think the list is a mile long.

Speaker 2 (56:58):
Hannah, what would you do if you could start, Hannah
Elliott reimagining cars?

Speaker 1 (57:02):
What would you I honestly wouldn't you'd keep in mind,
I'm really, I'm really, I'm honestly. I mean it's fine,
you know, I'm not certainly not casting judgment, but I
honestly wouldn't.

Speaker 3 (57:12):
I it doesn't appeal to me on a personal level.
It's just not my thing.

Speaker 4 (57:16):
Yeah, yeah, it's yeah, And I totally get that too,
Like I have a Yeah, I there's there's like old
slate sixties Shelby Mustangs, you know, I've got I've got
one that's that's been modernized and ones that haven't are
I think just as every bit is fun, you know,

(57:37):
imagine like an old you know one. I'll give you
an example of a car that i'd like done that
I would definitely not want to have, like a four
to twenty seven Cobra.

Speaker 5 (57:44):
I just want the original.

Speaker 1 (57:45):
Yeah, to me too, you know things we all see
cars on golf courses that have been over restored that
are just past the point they're actually better now than
they ever were when they came out of the factory.

Speaker 3 (58:00):
And to me, that's that.

Speaker 1 (58:02):
I'm not interested in in a hypothetical perfection that did
not exist at the time, you know.

Speaker 2 (58:09):
So I just want so I mean, I'm with you
kind of on this because I I feel like there
are a lot of old cars that are very unsafe
to drive. There's a lot of old cars that are
very slow, like even say they are now, and like
I would love to get like an old Jag, you know,

(58:31):
but I know it's going to break down every week,
and I know it's gonna be super slow and heavy.
But I want one that's I love the design, I
love the interior. For example, I want so desperately that
Bentley that Matt Farra got right. I've wanted for so long.
I've wanted a Bentley. But every time I watch a
YouTube video about someone who buys one for thirty thousand dollars,

(58:52):
they talk about how they've put one hundred grand into
it already and they still can't keep it running. I
wish they could do something like.

Speaker 4 (58:58):
You know, this is the great thing, like the case
can be made for both and and you know, Hannah
will say she loves that. You know, when you get
behind the wheel of an old card doesn't track perfectly straight,
have to pay total attention, and that's all right, right,
that's really cool. And I get it equally. I think
when you take a car that's restored and it's done

(59:18):
really well and you can't quite like, you know, when
I drive my Singer, people don't really know what it is,
particularly the DLS. They just think it's an old Porsche
with a cool paint job. They don't really you know,
like why it's a visible carbon car that's kind of cool.
They don't really get that it is completely different. As
an F one developed.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
You know, that's something that's that is completely different, right,
that's not.

Speaker 5 (59:43):
But it doesn't look like it.

Speaker 4 (59:44):
And I'll say you driving it doesn't feel like a
brand new modern car. It bears no resemblance to you know,
like a like my you know, sevent eighteen Spider Like
they're very very very different driving experiences, both awesome in
their own way, but very different. And I think that's
what I find alluring is that you can, you know,

(01:00:04):
done right, you can create something that's really pretty special.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
That was super nice of him to come and spend
some time with us. He's got so much on the go.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:00:12):
Yeah, it's unbelievable, and he's so grounded and calm. Yeah,
I'm surprised.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
Really interesting kind of crossover between cars as a hobby
and cars as an investment. And obviously the businesses are
you know, he wants to make money on them, but
what cool business is.

Speaker 1 (01:00:28):
To be in?

Speaker 3 (01:00:29):
Yeah, it's obvious. He's like, he's a car guy.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
He did it right, All right, very cool. That's all
we've got for today.

Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
What have you got?

Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
Have you got anything on in terms of are you
driving something special? I really By the way, desperately now
want to drive that Z six because I had such
a good time in the E Ray that now and
my wife was like, we need to get one of these.

Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
Meet in the middle, start driving toward each other.

Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
And what did you finally think of the Z six?

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
I mean it hi right, Yes, it's it's a great car.
You know, it's like everything we said last week. I
definitely think it's a bit lurchy. It's not a smooth beast.
And I say that having come out of a nine
to eleven, so you know, that's that is what I
drove immediately before it. The interior is really a thing,

(01:01:20):
you know, I don't know, it's like it doesn't I'm
not bothered by the interior configuration.

Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
It makes me feel something. I just don't know what.
It makes me feel.

Speaker 2 (01:01:30):
It makes me feel like I'm a fighter pilot who's
on an episode of Miami Vice. Yeah, it's you're in
a cocoon. And anyhow, I love also that the car
is relatively accessible. So, for instance, when we're talking about Ferraris,
you spend time in all these you know, supercars. I'm
never gonna get in any of those, but yes you will.
But a lot of people can get into.

Speaker 3 (01:01:51):
Quarvette Corvette, yeah for sure, which is.

Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
Which is really sweet. All Right, I'm I'm gonna be
driving an SL sixty three next week.

Speaker 3 (01:01:58):
That'll be fun, so excited. That'll be great for that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
But and so I've driven a series of these kind
of roadsters or convertibles. I had the Z four, Now
I was in the convertible C eight, and then I'll
be in the SL sixty three, and it'll be an
interesting comparison.

Speaker 3 (01:02:16):
That's great.

Speaker 1 (01:02:16):
I think I have a Volvo drive coming up, may
have a Rivian coming up. I've got a couple things
I kind of need to check. It's like I'm gonna
have a week or two with nothing and then a
staccato succession of new things.

Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
So all right, well then we have enough to talk
about for next week. Yes, I'm Matt

Speaker 3 (01:02:35):
Miller, I'm Hannah Elliott, and this is Bloomberg