October 24, 2025 • 37 mins
Bloomberg Detroit Bureau Chief David Welch joins the show to talk about General Motors, which is getting back into self-driving. Plus Matt drives the Porsche Taycan EV and Hannah once again defends her classic Rolls-Royce obsession.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Hannah Elliott and I'm Matt Miller, and this is
Hot Pursuit. Coming up on today's podcast. General Motors announces
plans to get back in the self driving car market
as it sells a lot more expensive gas trucks.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
And I've got a new piece out about the defense
of driving old Rolls Royces. This is part of a
new series we're doing on why the classic Rolls Royce
deserves more respect.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Very very cool. All right, We're going to get to
both of those topics shortly, but first I want to
start with what is and this may surprise some people. Yes,
my first time ever driving an electric p car. I
got behind the wheel of a Portie Tacon. It's the
GTS version of the station wagon shaped model, and it's
(01:02):
the first and only time I've ever driven an electric Porsche.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
I'm shocked.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I know, why does it take it this long? I
don't know. Just try not to I didn't try not to, no,
And I am kind of on the fence here, I
have to say in terms of just my first impressions,
it's only been a couple of days. I've been commuting
back and forth to work in it, and I took
it also on a rip upstate around Bear Mountain. It
(01:31):
is very, very quick.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Well we expected nothing less. Yeah, I'm curious when you
say you're on the fence, is that aesthetically or performance wise? No?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
So aesthetically it's gorgeous. I mean, I absolutely love the
way it looks, and I don't think many people disagree
with me really, even like the shooting brake version is
I mean Chef's kiss Like, I think it's it's amazing, sure,
and I you know, the interior I think wins me
(02:04):
over as well. Like as soon as I got in it,
it had actually the the PCM turned off, So the
first time I drove it with no music or anything,
no NAV, the screens were dark and I just thought,
what a sweet look. And even when I turned them on,
they're not so intrusive. It's not like too many screens
that overloads you. So esthetically, I think it's amazing. Do
(02:26):
you know people have a problem with that?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Yes? Me, I mean, you know, I'll just start at
the top. I don't hate it, but to me, it
just looks like they took a nine to eleven and
stretched it out, which is kind of kind of a
perversion of a beautiful thing.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Huh.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
So that's my quibble. I would say, does it look
better than a Tesla Modelsue, of course, that's probably one
of the least good looking cars I've ever seen.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Wow, I disagree with you on that as well.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
I'm not Modeless is beautiful, but it's timeless, sir.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
It's an appliance that was made by a creation.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
It's a device, not a machine.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
It's exactly this was. There is no way that the
Tesla Modeless or even the Tacan would have come out
of France or Italy. Let me put it this way,
the two centers of beauty in the world, the two
countries most responsible for beauty in the world, would never
have created these cars.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Well, if it is a nine to eleven stretched out,
I don't have a problem with that, because I love
the nine to eleven I feel like it is. I
don't see that I don't think they stretched it out
far enough because one of my one of the main
problems I have with this car is that the B
pillar is completely in the way of getting in and
out of it. I don't know why I have to
(03:49):
slink around the B pillar to get in and the car,
by the way, I want to see you. As soon
as you approach it or open the door, it jumps
up on its air suspension, which is a really cool trick.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Yeah, I like I do admit that I like it.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
But then the B pillar is like substantially in the way.
I think it's beautiful. I think it looks just futuristic
enough while still maintaining like elegant lines and a classic look.
It's not too much, it's not over designed. And then
driving it is so driving it's amazing, right, It's so quick,
(04:25):
it's so easy to place it where you want it.
And for commuting, especially in New York, it's so perfect
because you need to jet in and out of these spots.
When a spot opens up and a lane next to
you, you need to get in and then get out.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
This is totally true.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
I had today my record fastest commute from Scarsdale to Bloomberg.
I made it in twenty seven minutes door to door.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Wow, at what time of day?
Speaker 2 (04:50):
It was five thirty seven when I left, so it
wasn't in the New York traffic. That's not terribly early, sure,
because it's already after the congestion. Uh charge starts so,
but yeah, so I love driving it as well. My
biggest problem with it is I'm sitting there and feeling
(05:10):
very like, very much like I'm in a Porsche, you know,
and then thinking like, wow, I could be in a
nine to eleven though, yes, for sure I could be
hearing that flat six whale.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Yes, And I will say I don't think Porsche would
have produced a vehicle that wasn't incredible to drive. They
just won't let it out of the factory. And I
do give them a lot of props for that. I
and I remember, you know, this car debut in twenty nineteen,
which is one hundred years ago in car years, and
(05:44):
was at Niagara Falls, and then everyone agreed drove amazing
very expensive. I think the first models were maybe one
hundred and eighty five thousand dollars for the turbos, one
hundred and fifty for the the just the turbo. That's
very expensive, and since then the values have really dropped.
(06:08):
My problems with this car are not driving related, is
what I'm trying to say. There are other problems with it,
like very chronicled and reported on recalls and reliability issues.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
To be honest, well, this solids.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
And failing aftermarket values too, which you can get one
for pretty cheap.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
That's a market, you know what. That's interesting. So it
had me instantly thinking about and scouring the classified ads
for a cheaper one because it is an amazing way
to commute, and if you're weaving in what is essentially
bumper to bumper traffic, there's nothing better than an electric propulsion, right,
because you have instant torque. But the thing is, the
(06:54):
whole time I'm driving it, I'm thinking about Porsche because
I'm in a Porsche, yes, and then I'm thinking about
nine eleven, and yes, obviously that's better, you know, yes?
Speaker 3 (07:06):
And also why have we not talked about the Panama.
The other thing with the tie can is it kind
of cannibalized the Panama and made that disappear from consciousness.
But the Panamara still at this point exists. Y, But
(07:26):
I'd rather have I think I would rather have a
tie can than a Panamer, right, And for me, I'd
rather have a tie can than a boxter.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
As well, because okay, of my own personal issues with the.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Lack like a seven eighteen.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Yeah, it just doesn't seem to have enough power to me.
It's more of a momentum car, as people say, right,
and I don't I want, you know, the brute force.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Yes, I just keep going back to the fact that
I've talked to so many people who agree with us
and say the performance is incredible, and they agree with
you when they say they like how it looks, but
that they've had legitimate and reoccurring reliability issues on these cars.
And let's be honest, the whole electrification of Portia has
(08:17):
been a big challenge and has caused the company a
lot of failure. I mean financially, in business wise. I mean.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
My thoughts when driving this are the same as when
I drive any electric car that I really like, especially
if I really like the esthetics and the interior, which
are important to me. My first thought is could I
keep this car forever? Right Like I'm going to keep
my Dodge Challenger forever because it meets every need that
(08:47):
I have for that kind of tool, and it's never
going to be obsolete, like even if they come out
with a four twenty seven or a four to twenty
six motor and still stroke and bore mine out to that.
So whenever I drive an electric car, I'm always thinking,
if I keep this forever, and battery technology improves by
(09:08):
leaps and bounds, will I be able to swap out
the battery? And the answer, inevitably for almost all electric
cars is no, You're always going to be stuck with
It's not like an IC car where you can swap
out a motor, right, You're always going to be stuck
with the battery that you have because it's part of
the skateboard or the way it's built into the car.
It just can't be switched. And that's I think a
(09:30):
failing of electric cars.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Yeah, I agree, you know, I would. We often talk
about Chris Bryant in his columns, and he wrote a
column last year that the headline was secondhand evs are
starting to look like a bargain, which is kind of
what you're alluding to.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
I think, yeah, for sure. No, I mean we've talked about.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
That before it and we have talked about it again.
For me, I'm a little bit gun shy because I'm
too used to how my my phone battery has degraded
over the years, and I still feel like that will
happen to my car battery. So even if you swap
out the whole battery, which to me, seems like it's
(10:13):
an expensive proposition to begin with. I just don't know
if there's enough left for me to want in a
used car.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Let's leave it with the famous quote that was attributed
to Walter Rural, the great the driver, the great rally
driver whose name is so difficult for Americans to pronounce.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Yes, apparently.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Now I'm not sure if this is true, but back
in twenty nineteen when this came out, Oh, I know
what you're gonna say, he apparently had worked on this car,
and he said he'd never experienced such immediate and impressive performance,
even in his fastest rally cars. He said the quietness
of the Taikon was truly a unique experience, and he
said the weight, steering, and brakes all made it feel
distinctly like a Porsche, and yet he would never or
(11:00):
buy one.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Yeah, that's what a legend. What a legend. Oh, I've
got to take can joke? Actually?
Speaker 2 (11:06):
What is it? They?
Speaker 3 (11:07):
The Germans wanted to name it something else, but all
the good names were take can.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I think that my five year old would appreciate that joke?
Speaker 3 (11:17):
All right?
Speaker 2 (11:18):
So coming up, General Motors shelved its ROBOTAXI unit less
than a year ago. But now the company is ready
to get back into the self driving market and they're
hoping to continue knocking it out of the park with
their high priced, high margin trucks and SUVs. More on
that after this break, This is hot pursuit. I'm Matt Miller,
(11:44):
along with Hannah Elliott. General Motors held a big press
conference touting new targets as it continues to sell high margin,
high price trucks and said it's going to get back
to self driving vehicles with a twenty twenty eight escalade IQ.
All right, we are lucky enough to have our Detroit
bureau chief in the house. David Welch joins us. I guess, David,
(12:07):
you're in town for this General Motors presentation. I saw
you there yesterday with Mary Barrow as the CEO, as
well as President Mark Royce and then a couple of
like their super tech execs, Sterling Anderson and Dave Richardson. Yeah,
General Motors has the stock went on a tear this week,
and it's because what they raised their forecast in terms
(12:31):
of the ultra high end luxury trucks they're selling. Is
that right?
Speaker 4 (12:37):
Well, they raised their earnings forecast period based on truck
sales doing well, I mean GMC, which is all expensive
pickup trucks, and sgv's on pace for a record year.
And also they gave a lot of clarity on a
couple of things investors worried about. One is tariffs, so
they're managing those costs, and the other one is clearly
(12:58):
they've got enough investment in electric vasvehicles. They don't need
to put any more into that. And investors have always
been uncertain on how much money that stuff is really
going to make in the next few years. So if
you're looking at a stock like GM and you're worried about,
you know where their earnings are going to go. You know,
the truck business prints money, and if that goes into
an EV business that loses money, it's not a great investment.
(13:20):
And so look, you know, we're based on where the
market is, based on Trump's policies. They got a dozen
vs on the market, they got a couple of battery plants,
a third one planned. They don't need to put any
more money into that. Investors are kind of like, great,
so you're just going to print money on pickup trucks
and sgv's going forward and we like that. So the
stock went on a terror because all that uncertainty was
(13:41):
basically cleared off the decks.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
David tell us about how much the self driving announcement
had to do with people feeling good about GM, or
did it?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
I mean did?
Speaker 3 (13:54):
How related were those two things? I saw I read
your piece. You know, GM announced they're getting back into
self driving cars. How interrelated are those those topics?
Speaker 4 (14:06):
There's some connection there, I think when so go back
to when GM had Cruise, which is a fully self
driving vehicle and a robotaxi business like Waimo is running.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Now we've been talking a lot about Weimo.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
Yeah. Look, Waymo was doing some interesting stuff, but GM
investors hated it. Every time GM put money into Cruise,
or I should say, conversely, if GM laid people off
at Creus or cut back, shares went up. So by
the time GM killed crews off and the stock had
gone up a significant percentage because of that, and because
(14:42):
earnings did better because it wasn't a drag of re quarder.
What that essentially meant was that investors assigned a negative
value to Cruise. They didn't want to see money going
into that because they think it's going to take forever. Now,
if you're Google and you have all kinds of cash
and you know much better cash flow, you know what
they it's not inconsequential, it's not cheap to fundway Mo.
But for a company the size of Alphabet Inc. It's
(15:05):
it's like money in the couch cushions. You know, it's
pocket change. But for GM, it was real money. With
what they announced yesterday, it says GM's getting back into
self driving vehicles by continually developing the supercrus business they
have now, which already makes money and it doesn't require
a lot of investment to keep doing that. It's yeah,
(15:26):
you're investing in the people, you're hiring people at software,
but the investment goes up and down the elevator every day,
or you know, in the front door, as opposed to
building more plants and scaling up in cities to run
a robotaxi business. Also, frankly, I think it's unclear to
a lot of investors how robotaxi businesses are going to
make money because those fleets are very expensive to maintain.
(15:46):
But GM's not doing that. They're selling a service that
already has very nice margins. And GM gave some clarity
on that seventy percent margins to people who are already buying
their cars. So if you look at that a number
of people driving GM vehicles that could end up with
super crews or this advanced version of what they're doing
in twenty twenty eight, and maybe they licensed it to
(16:07):
another company. They're partnered with Hyundai in a lot of ways,
you know that. I think that's all good. Now, how
much investors choose to believe that GM is going to
hit a home run with that? That that's the open
question because the car companies are never going to doing
business to consumer kind of stuff. They're they're good at
manufacturing stuff and handing it off to a dealer who
faces off with the customer. But hey, it's it's sort
(16:27):
of all icing on the cake. It's all potential upside
here for GM, as opposed to, you know, spending billions
to develop a big robotaxi business like they.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
We should clarify. So the self driving I know a
lot of people you know, like to pick knits when
you talk about autonomous driving. The idea is now, with
super crews, you have you can have hands off driving.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
And eyes off.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I thought eyes off is what they're coming out with
in twenty Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, okay, so
now the deal is for people who don't drive GM
vehicles or haven't tried this, because it's also an expensive option.
That's why the margins are high. Right, if you get
it on a luxury GM you know, g Javior Cadillact
vehicle exactly, you can it completely takes over for you.
(17:14):
And David they said that they'd done seven hundred thousand
million miles, so seven hundred billion miles of hands off
driving the Super Crews without an accident that's attributed to
the system. Have you used the system? What do you
think about it?
Speaker 4 (17:30):
I've used Supercrews. I haven't used obviously the new one
they're going to put out.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
No, I mean the Current, the Current. I've used the.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
Current when in the hummer, and it is really good.
Like you're on the highway, you signal that you want
to change lanes, it'll change lanes for you, it'll pass cars.
It is very good. It's hands free. I'm not a
big fan of the these hands free systems because eventually
you have to get your hand back on the wheel, right,
Like you can't do that, Like interminably.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Can you take your all the way off the wheel
or do you have to like rest your fingers on.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
You can take it all the way off the wheel,
but you have to put it back on after a
certain amount of time.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
It's also critical, you said on the highway, because these
don't work on surface streaks.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
That's right at the moment.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
So you have this hands free system, but you do
have to keep your eyes engaged, and if you take
your eyes off the road with supercrews currently, it will
warn you to put them back on, and then if
you don't, it'll it'll slow the vehicle down and stop it.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
I have both in the hummer and in the in
the escalade.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
That's a little bit with David.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
It's it's to me, it's like you still have to
be engaged driving. You can't just fall asleep and take
a nap. You still, like David said, you still have
to be paying attention and looking at the road even
if your hands aren't on the steering wheel. So it
allows for a little bit more of a relaxed state.
(18:52):
But exactly that's what it feels like. And also it's
not great about exiting. It will exit, but you kind
of have to you have to pay paying attention. Yeah,
it's what I would say. You still have to you
still have to be engaged. It's not like take a nap.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
Yeah, so, Matt, I don't know if you noticed this yesterday,
if you crawled around that escalated IQ, that's the Electric
Cadillac Escalade. But they had a video screen that was
showing episodes of White Lotus. Yes, with the implication being
that you can really kind of zone out here and
watch a movie or TV.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
This is for the twenty twenty eight version. Yeah, yeah,
that's right, right, that would be an update.
Speaker 4 (19:34):
Yeah, so presumably can go to sleep. Now, what you
can't do, crucially, you can't sit in the backseat, which
you can with the Robotaxi systems, right, you have to
be in the front seat. Reason being is, well, look
what Waimo does, what Zekes does, and that's the other
Robotaxi company and Mame Mobility for that matter, is they
are tightly geofenced that they can only pick people up
(19:57):
and offer fares in rids to fares and certain areas.
That's sort of similar with current supercrews and the future addition,
it's on the highway and then once you get off
the highway onto surface streets, which is probably why Hana
was having a tough time with the off ramp. You
have to re engage now. Sterley Anderson told me that
(20:17):
eventually they want to get to the point where they're
doing this on surface streets in urban areas as well,
and they want to add more models beyond the Escalate IQ.
So look, Sterley Anderson's had a product development at General Motors.
His background is obviously he came from Aurora Innovation, which
is av trucking right now, but before that he worked
on autopilot for Tesla, and he did his PhD paper
(20:39):
in mechanical engineering on autonomous technology. So what he told
me the quote I had my story was you know,
if I'm gonna paraphrase, but he said, basically, I'd be
a curious choice to be CEO if the company didn't
believe in autonomy. So they're really going to push this thing.
And honestly, if you look at what else is out
there on the market, Tesla's full self driving is not
(21:02):
a totally hands free system. You must put your hands
back on the wheel at a certain point. Mercedes and
BMW have some nice systems, but Honey You've probably driven
those more than I have, but don't they top out
around forty miles per hour?
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Yes, Mercedes has a Level three system that is not
legal in all states that similarly, it will do some
highway and some street driving. But everybody's got some of
this and it's not legal everywhere.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
That's the other thing, you know, the regulations.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
So I'm curious, David. You seem to this quote from
Sirling Anderson, which you pointed out, does indicate that this
is a real commitment. This isn't just gms sort of
trying to stay relevant and act like they are going
to be moving in the future, but they're leaving themselves
and out in case they don't want to pursue this.
(21:59):
Is that your sense that this is a real This
is real?
Speaker 4 (22:02):
Yeah, it is, and I think hiring Sterling says that
because and look also, this is the story I broke
a while back. One of his first meetings with the
new staff, the software people at gm IS, he said
that he was hiring people, some of the former cruise
people back, and he also brought in people from elsewhere,
and he confirmed all of that for me yesterday too.
(22:23):
They've hired autonomous talent from from other places as well.
So yeah, they're they're they're really pushing this. And look,
to me, this was a surprise because when Cruz was
shut down, GM said, yeah, we're going to develop a
personally owned autonomous vehicle. But this is a company whose
shareholders rewarded it for getting out of autonomy, whose general
(22:43):
counsel's office and lobbyists went through. I'd say, you know,
some very very tough months after the car drag, somebody
and the California and federal regulators leaned all over them.
This was a nightmare for them. And I just thought,
knowing how GM responds to shareholders and regulators, which is
to say very accommodatingly, we're never going to see this
(23:05):
car from GM. So now Sterling comes back and we're
going to see it's not the autonomous robotaxi, but it
really is moving pretty far along the spectrum from hands
hands off driving or level two toward actual level four autonomy.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Wait, can I just ask about general motors? Seems to
have done very well in certain areas. For example, the
evs have massive range. I remember the first time I
drove an Audi EV, the Etron. You know, I don't
know six seven years ago, and I was impressed, but
I couldn't get a lot of range. This week, as
Hanna and I were talking about, I'm in a Portia Taikon,
(23:39):
which is amazing, but it's you know, two hundred miles
or so of real range, maybe less if you're really
gunning it, whereas GM has managed four hundred plus miles
on these big giant trucks. They've also had, I think,
a technological advantage in that they're infotainment systems. You know
(24:01):
now are a lot of times they're dropping Apple Car Play,
but you don't need it because they're so useful and
effective as they as they are, and they have this
broad product offering, like if you want an ev from them,
and I know it's not currently on vogue, but you
can get everything from an Equinox or a Bolt, you know,
(24:22):
lower prices through to the higher end trucks and the
massively expensive you know, Cadillacs. So why does GM seem
to be doing so well compared to others with these
high higher tech projects. And am I reading that wrong?
(24:43):
David No, I.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Think you're reading it pretty well. I mean, look like
it's just funny debate. I had a few years ago
on another automotive TV show, where the host said, you know,
he was making fun of Cadillac because Cadillacs had its
troubles over the years. He said, GM basically said GM
sucks at luxury, and I said, that's not really true.
I said, Cadillac has sucked at bringing in luxury buyers.
(25:06):
I said, but if you look at GMC, they sell
four hundred to six hundred thousand vehicles a year, and
I think about half of them are the Denali brand,
which is these are basically Cadillacs with like kind of
more trucky trims inside, but they're luxury vehicles and they're
really expensive. So GM brings in a lot of very
(25:26):
well healed consumers. Cadillac's gotten better through the EVS, but
between some very expensive Chevy pickups, corvettes, now some Hummers,
and the GMC line, they have customers pay a lot
of money for their vehicles and they like technology. Most
luxury buyers do. So, you know, I think GM, in
(25:48):
a way that Jeep has been unable to do, is
identified that there are people who like big vehicles obviously,
and they like them to be luxurious, but they don't
necessarily want the conspicuous consumption of an ostentation brand.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
I was just going to say sorry, I was just
going to say that is it's a very interesting juxtaposition.
And I was in Texas last week driving around the
juxtaposition between how much money something costs and whether or
not it's considered a luxury item. And this goes back
to the six figure trucks, which somehow are not considered
(26:22):
flashy and luxury items, but they cost so much money.
Speaker 4 (26:27):
And they called them cowboy ketto as.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
There you go, perfect example where it is a weird
mind trick that the automakers play where they sort of
sneak in all the luxury things and that price point,
but it's not considered too flashy for the neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
It's also part of the selling point. I mean, I
remember when I first moved to Bronxville, which is kind
of a Shei Shei suburb of New York, and noticed
that all the moms were driving Yukon Denaleys that's on
the right side, because because they didn't want to be
driving the sort of kardashian esque escalades, but they wanted
all the same rooms and room and functionality, and so
(27:08):
I guess they went with the Denale thinking it was
kind of more under the radar or kind of like
a you know you acceptable, yeah, yeah, and it's it's.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
Just less of an obnoxious thing, and but it's it's big,
and it's kind of if an escalade is kind of
brash in its styling, and I think it probably I
think it probably is. You know, gmcal a, gmc yukon
Denale is it would be much more understated. But you
(27:37):
sit inside those things and they are very much wucked
out and they're very expensive. I've said, for a long time,
I thought Tesla was a luxury brand. Now I think
they've given that away by stripping down and discounting their cars.
But for the longest time, back when they were selling
Model wives and Model threes for sixty five thousand dollars,
other automotive journalists, but you know, it would get angry
(27:58):
at me like it's not luxury at and said, I'm like, look,
I know it's very spartan inside, but if you're you know,
you're paying that much for you know, a four passenger
small vehicle like like a Model three or Model Y,
that's a luxury good.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
If you're paying I was I was saying, I was
probably one of the people disagreeing with you because I
was like, this is not luxury, this.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Is this is this is an age old discussion. Hannah
and I have what.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
Hannah's right too, because it doesn't have luxury amployments because
the interiors are frankly, you know, very spartan and just
not posh at all. However, I'm with my degrees in economics.
I look at a luxury good from an economy from
an economists definition, which is you're paying a hell of
a lot more for it for something that does the
same thing as a twenty two thousand dollars Chevy Tracks.
(28:46):
But it was a different kind of luxury in the
sense that if you look at an eyewatch on iPhone,
you're you're paying more for those products than you do
for other things. And the luxury is actually in the
functionality and technology and the HMI, even though it's really
simple design. Now these days, I wouldn't say Tesla even
a model US, I'm not sure i'd call luxury anymore
because they just they haven't done anything with the interiors.
(29:09):
I mean, like I thought with Tesla that the missed
opportunity with Cybertruck was not just that the styling is
strange to many people, but I sort of understand the
styling in a weird sci fi kind of way. If
the interior was expensive and matched it in a weird
sci fi kind of way, I think they would have
kind of had a hit with that. Yeah, and it
would have been it would have had a sort of
(29:31):
a weird cool factor to it. But they took a
pass like they always do on interiors, and therefore it's
not it's not a luxurious product, but it's a luxury good.
If I can kind of split it that way.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
That's a good good end note, David, thank you so
much for joining us. We are out of time with you,
but we love having you come on and please come on.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
More, and we love reading your stories and you're doing this.
Did a great job running that bureau in Detroit.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
Thank you, handle of your stuff. Mad loved being with
you on the air all the time, So let's do it. Thanks.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
Coming up, I've got a new column on old rolls
royces and why they may need a little bit of defending.
That's coming up right after this.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
You're listening to Bloomberg's Hot Pursuit. I'm Matt Miller along
with Hannah Elliott. Hannah, I want to talk about your
latest column. It's something that we talk about all the
time a fair amount.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
I mean, this is honestly, this is not going to
be anything new to anyone who's listened to this well,
but I think it is new to some people.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
It's still an important discussion, and I think it centers
around one of the smartest piece of pieces of advice
that you give to people, which is, you know, when
you're looking for something in the market new that's overpriced
or that doesn't exist, why not just look at something
in the secondhand market. I mean, we don't all need
(30:56):
to buy products that no one else has had before.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
That's exactly right. And we've talked about how the price
of new vehicles is kind of astronomical and we get
very desensitized to it in our job and the things
that we do to report because it's we talk about
them all the time. But really, like even the most
basic nine to eleven is more than one hundred and
thirty thousand dollars just to even get a nine to
(31:21):
eleven ferraris if you want to talk ferrari are averaging
four hundred and fifty seven thousand dollars for a new one,
and that's not including the weight time, and that's not
including if you want a special edition version, which tax
on another you know, forty to eighty percent of that price.
So new cars are crazy expensive. We I think we
(31:44):
both can relate to the feeling that we want to
have something that feels unique, that feels like it reflects
our personality. But it can feel like an arms race,
and it can be depressing. Really define that.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
And it's not even just luxury, right. I think weeks
Togo Cox Automotive came out with a figure that for
the first time, the average new car price, that's the
average purchase in a mode not just luxury cars, is
more than fifty thousand dollars.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Yeah, that's wild.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
So and you know, I always talk about the fact
that I'm shopping a suburban. I really want to get
a big suburban for my family. I have to have
the six point two liter V eight. Obviously, I'm not
going to go with the five point three when there's
a bigger one out there. But every time I put
one together, it costs eighty nine or ninety two thousand dollars.
(32:33):
And that's for like what is considered, at least when
I was a kid, the ultimate family vehicle. Right, Sure,
that's not.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Going to give you rockstar status, but I'll tell you
something that will. An old Rolls Rice.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Laugh.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
I laugh because you have heard me go through it
with complaining about, you know, a breakdown every now and then.
This is true, but I have to say the upside
of owning something vintage so far out weighs any minor
discomfort are set back.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
I mean, but does it outweigh like the repair bills,
because this is what I always wonder. You see Rolls
Royce's on bat or you know, maybe Craig's list. I look.
I always look for these Bentley Turbo rs. I love, yes,
yes shapes that is so you. They apparently are great
(33:28):
to drive as well. I never have, but I listen
to Matt Farrah talk about the one.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
He bought a matter of time, and you can get
they can be had for you know, twenty five thirty
five forty thousand dollars in what looks like pretty good shape.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
But then I fear taking taking it to Charlie Agapo
and paying like I know, ten thousand dollars repair bills.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
I know, and Look, the truth is sometimes the cost
of the repair and maintenance may exceed the price and
value of the car. That is true, and that is
because to your point, a Rose Ray Silver Shadow is
a twenty grand car now over the years market in
(34:15):
the US market, yes, from nineteen seventies, call it. I
have not spent twenty grand on repairs and maintenance for
that car, and I don't anticipate that I will. I've
spent a couple grand here and there to do electrical
work and to replace cracked hoses and that sort of thing,
but nothing major knock on wood. But yeah, the cars
(34:37):
are pretty inexpensive, which means that, yes, the repairs in
proportion to the cost of the car are high.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
But again.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
It's still less than buying an eighty grand suburban. And
the amount of joy and pleasure and delight that I
get from the car far outweighs the cost. As that
famous saying goes, the quality will remain long after the
price is forgotten, and that is true.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Well, and you can also probably easily fit two rear
facing car seats in the back for sure, and a
lot of stuff in the boot, So I guess you
know it would make sense. I think part of it
depends on the generation that you buy. So I'm always
looking at the s Z series, which is that the
(35:28):
eighties and nineties Rolls, Royce's and Bentley's that had a
lot more I guess high tech things going on in
the motor that need I don't know if it's always
engine out, but expensive repairs.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
So in the.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Silver Shadow that you're interested in is the s Y
series that was the previous nineteen sixty five to nineteen
eighty and just seems like maybe they come with a
lower bill.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Probably I think that's true, and I want you to
have a Bentley from the nineties, like this feels very you.
I want this for you. And to that end, I
have looked at prices, and you're right, it's all just
more expensive. Like the closer to modern day you get,
it all gets more and more expensive, which is a
little bit out of my price point, which is why
(36:20):
mine are in the seventies, although I do have one
from the mid eighties, a Spur that is actually the
one that's running the best right now, so that's the
one I drive to work. Again, I don't think it's
for everyone, like everyone can find their sweet spot, but
I really recommend old cars.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
All right, Well, that does it for this week's show.
Remember to follow and subscribe to Hot Pursuit on Apple, Spotify,
and anywhere else you listen to podcasts. Feel like to
search Bloomberg Hot Pursuit. You can also send us your comments.
Email us at hot Pursuit at bloomberg dot net.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
And you can check out my columns and stories on
Bloomberg dot com and the Bloomberg Business App. You can
go there for car reviews, events and stories that you
won't find anywhere else. Find it all at Bloomberg dot com,
slash Pursuits, slash Autos.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
I'm Hannah Elliott and I'm Matt Miller. We'll be back
with a fresh episode in your podcast Speed next week.
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Hannah Elliott and I'm Matt Miller, and this is
Hot Pursuit. Coming up on today's podcast. General Motors announces
plans to get back in the self driving car market
as it sells a lot more expensive gas trucks.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
And I've got a new piece out about the defense
of driving old Rolls Royces. This is part of a
new series we're doing on why the classic Rolls Royce
deserves more respect.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Very very cool. All right, We're going to get to
both of those topics shortly, but first I want to
start with what is and this may surprise some people. Yes,
my first time ever driving an electric p car. I
got behind the wheel of a Portie Tacon. It's the
GTS version of the station wagon shaped model, and it's
(01:02):
the first and only time I've ever driven an electric Porsche.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
I'm shocked.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I know, why does it take it this long? I
don't know. Just try not to I didn't try not to, no,
And I am kind of on the fence here, I
have to say in terms of just my first impressions,
it's only been a couple of days. I've been commuting
back and forth to work in it, and I took
it also on a rip upstate around Bear Mountain. It
(01:31):
is very, very quick.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Well we expected nothing less. Yeah, I'm curious when you
say you're on the fence, is that aesthetically or performance wise? No?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
So aesthetically it's gorgeous. I mean, I absolutely love the
way it looks, and I don't think many people disagree
with me really, even like the shooting brake version is
I mean Chef's kiss Like, I think it's it's amazing, sure,
and I you know, the interior I think wins me
(02:04):
over as well. Like as soon as I got in it,
it had actually the the PCM turned off, So the
first time I drove it with no music or anything,
no NAV, the screens were dark and I just thought,
what a sweet look. And even when I turned them on,
they're not so intrusive. It's not like too many screens
that overloads you. So esthetically, I think it's amazing. Do
(02:26):
you know people have a problem with that?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Yes? Me, I mean, you know, I'll just start at
the top. I don't hate it, but to me, it
just looks like they took a nine to eleven and
stretched it out, which is kind of kind of a
perversion of a beautiful thing.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Huh.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
So that's my quibble. I would say, does it look
better than a Tesla Modelsue, of course, that's probably one
of the least good looking cars I've ever seen.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Wow, I disagree with you on that as well.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
I'm not Modeless is beautiful, but it's timeless, sir.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
It's an appliance that was made by a creation.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
It's a device, not a machine.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
It's exactly this was. There is no way that the
Tesla Modeless or even the Tacan would have come out
of France or Italy. Let me put it this way,
the two centers of beauty in the world, the two
countries most responsible for beauty in the world, would never
have created these cars.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Well, if it is a nine to eleven stretched out,
I don't have a problem with that, because I love
the nine to eleven I feel like it is. I
don't see that I don't think they stretched it out
far enough because one of my one of the main
problems I have with this car is that the B
pillar is completely in the way of getting in and
out of it. I don't know why I have to
(03:49):
slink around the B pillar to get in and the car,
by the way, I want to see you. As soon
as you approach it or open the door, it jumps
up on its air suspension, which is a really cool trick.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Yeah, I like I do admit that I like it.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
But then the B pillar is like substantially in the way.
I think it's beautiful. I think it looks just futuristic
enough while still maintaining like elegant lines and a classic look.
It's not too much, it's not over designed. And then
driving it is so driving it's amazing, right, It's so quick,
(04:25):
it's so easy to place it where you want it.
And for commuting, especially in New York, it's so perfect
because you need to jet in and out of these spots.
When a spot opens up and a lane next to
you, you need to get in and then get out.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
This is totally true.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
I had today my record fastest commute from Scarsdale to Bloomberg.
I made it in twenty seven minutes door to door.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Wow, at what time of day?
Speaker 2 (04:50):
It was five thirty seven when I left, so it
wasn't in the New York traffic. That's not terribly early, sure,
because it's already after the congestion. Uh charge starts so,
but yeah, so I love driving it as well. My
biggest problem with it is I'm sitting there and feeling
(05:10):
very like, very much like I'm in a Porsche, you know,
and then thinking like, wow, I could be in a
nine to eleven though, yes, for sure I could be
hearing that flat six whale.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Yes, And I will say I don't think Porsche would
have produced a vehicle that wasn't incredible to drive. They
just won't let it out of the factory. And I
do give them a lot of props for that. I
and I remember, you know, this car debut in twenty nineteen,
which is one hundred years ago in car years, and
(05:44):
was at Niagara Falls, and then everyone agreed drove amazing
very expensive. I think the first models were maybe one
hundred and eighty five thousand dollars for the turbos, one
hundred and fifty for the the just the turbo. That's
very expensive, and since then the values have really dropped.
(06:08):
My problems with this car are not driving related, is
what I'm trying to say. There are other problems with it,
like very chronicled and reported on recalls and reliability issues.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
To be honest, well, this solids.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
And failing aftermarket values too, which you can get one
for pretty cheap.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
That's a market, you know what. That's interesting. So it
had me instantly thinking about and scouring the classified ads
for a cheaper one because it is an amazing way
to commute, and if you're weaving in what is essentially
bumper to bumper traffic, there's nothing better than an electric propulsion, right,
because you have instant torque. But the thing is, the
(06:54):
whole time I'm driving it, I'm thinking about Porsche because
I'm in a Porsche, yes, and then I'm thinking about
nine eleven, and yes, obviously that's better, you know, yes?
Speaker 3 (07:06):
And also why have we not talked about the Panama.
The other thing with the tie can is it kind
of cannibalized the Panama and made that disappear from consciousness.
But the Panamara still at this point exists. Y, But
(07:26):
I'd rather have I think I would rather have a
tie can than a Panamer, right, And for me, I'd
rather have a tie can than a boxter.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
As well, because okay, of my own personal issues with the.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Lack like a seven eighteen.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Yeah, it just doesn't seem to have enough power to me.
It's more of a momentum car, as people say, right,
and I don't I want, you know, the brute force.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Yes, I just keep going back to the fact that
I've talked to so many people who agree with us
and say the performance is incredible, and they agree with
you when they say they like how it looks, but
that they've had legitimate and reoccurring reliability issues on these cars.
And let's be honest, the whole electrification of Portia has
(08:17):
been a big challenge and has caused the company a
lot of failure. I mean financially, in business wise. I mean.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
My thoughts when driving this are the same as when
I drive any electric car that I really like, especially
if I really like the esthetics and the interior, which
are important to me. My first thought is could I
keep this car forever? Right Like I'm going to keep
my Dodge Challenger forever because it meets every need that
(08:47):
I have for that kind of tool, and it's never
going to be obsolete, like even if they come out
with a four twenty seven or a four to twenty
six motor and still stroke and bore mine out to that.
So whenever I drive an electric car, I'm always thinking,
if I keep this forever, and battery technology improves by
(09:08):
leaps and bounds, will I be able to swap out
the battery? And the answer, inevitably for almost all electric
cars is no, You're always going to be stuck with
It's not like an IC car where you can swap
out a motor, right, You're always going to be stuck
with the battery that you have because it's part of
the skateboard or the way it's built into the car.
It just can't be switched. And that's I think a
(09:30):
failing of electric cars.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Yeah, I agree, you know, I would. We often talk
about Chris Bryant in his columns, and he wrote a
column last year that the headline was secondhand evs are
starting to look like a bargain, which is kind of
what you're alluding to.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
I think, yeah, for sure. No, I mean we've talked about.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
That before it and we have talked about it again.
For me, I'm a little bit gun shy because I'm
too used to how my my phone battery has degraded
over the years, and I still feel like that will
happen to my car battery. So even if you swap
out the whole battery, which to me, seems like it's
(10:13):
an expensive proposition to begin with. I just don't know
if there's enough left for me to want in a
used car.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Let's leave it with the famous quote that was attributed
to Walter Rural, the great the driver, the great rally
driver whose name is so difficult for Americans to pronounce.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Yes, apparently.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Now I'm not sure if this is true, but back
in twenty nineteen when this came out, Oh, I know
what you're gonna say, he apparently had worked on this car,
and he said he'd never experienced such immediate and impressive performance,
even in his fastest rally cars. He said the quietness
of the Taikon was truly a unique experience, and he
said the weight, steering, and brakes all made it feel
distinctly like a Porsche, and yet he would never or
(11:00):
buy one.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Yeah, that's what a legend. What a legend. Oh, I've
got to take can joke? Actually?
Speaker 2 (11:06):
What is it? They?
Speaker 3 (11:07):
The Germans wanted to name it something else, but all
the good names were take can.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I think that my five year old would appreciate that joke?
Speaker 3 (11:17):
All right?
Speaker 2 (11:18):
So coming up, General Motors shelved its ROBOTAXI unit less
than a year ago. But now the company is ready
to get back into the self driving market and they're
hoping to continue knocking it out of the park with
their high priced, high margin trucks and SUVs. More on
that after this break, This is hot pursuit. I'm Matt Miller,
(11:44):
along with Hannah Elliott. General Motors held a big press
conference touting new targets as it continues to sell high margin,
high price trucks and said it's going to get back
to self driving vehicles with a twenty twenty eight escalade IQ.
All right, we are lucky enough to have our Detroit
bureau chief in the house. David Welch joins us. I guess, David,
(12:07):
you're in town for this General Motors presentation. I saw
you there yesterday with Mary Barrow as the CEO, as
well as President Mark Royce and then a couple of
like their super tech execs, Sterling Anderson and Dave Richardson. Yeah,
General Motors has the stock went on a tear this week,
and it's because what they raised their forecast in terms
(12:31):
of the ultra high end luxury trucks they're selling. Is
that right?
Speaker 4 (12:37):
Well, they raised their earnings forecast period based on truck
sales doing well, I mean GMC, which is all expensive
pickup trucks, and sgv's on pace for a record year.
And also they gave a lot of clarity on a
couple of things investors worried about. One is tariffs, so
they're managing those costs, and the other one is clearly
(12:58):
they've got enough investment in electric vasvehicles. They don't need
to put any more into that. And investors have always
been uncertain on how much money that stuff is really
going to make in the next few years. So if
you're looking at a stock like GM and you're worried about,
you know where their earnings are going to go. You know,
the truck business prints money, and if that goes into
an EV business that loses money, it's not a great investment.
(13:20):
And so look, you know, we're based on where the
market is, based on Trump's policies. They got a dozen
vs on the market, they got a couple of battery plants,
a third one planned. They don't need to put any
more money into that. Investors are kind of like, great,
so you're just going to print money on pickup trucks
and sgv's going forward and we like that. So the
stock went on a terror because all that uncertainty was
(13:41):
basically cleared off the decks.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
David tell us about how much the self driving announcement
had to do with people feeling good about GM, or
did it?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
I mean did?
Speaker 3 (13:54):
How related were those two things? I saw I read
your piece. You know, GM announced they're getting back into
self driving cars. How interrelated are those those topics?
Speaker 4 (14:06):
There's some connection there, I think when so go back
to when GM had Cruise, which is a fully self
driving vehicle and a robotaxi business like Waimo is running.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Now we've been talking a lot about Weimo.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
Yeah. Look, Waymo was doing some interesting stuff, but GM
investors hated it. Every time GM put money into Cruise,
or I should say, conversely, if GM laid people off
at Creus or cut back, shares went up. So by
the time GM killed crews off and the stock had
gone up a significant percentage because of that, and because
(14:42):
earnings did better because it wasn't a drag of re quarder.
What that essentially meant was that investors assigned a negative
value to Cruise. They didn't want to see money going
into that because they think it's going to take forever. Now,
if you're Google and you have all kinds of cash
and you know much better cash flow, you know what
they it's not inconsequential, it's not cheap to fundway Mo.
But for a company the size of Alphabet Inc. It's
(15:05):
it's like money in the couch cushions. You know, it's
pocket change. But for GM, it was real money. With
what they announced yesterday, it says GM's getting back into
self driving vehicles by continually developing the supercrus business they
have now, which already makes money and it doesn't require
a lot of investment to keep doing that. It's yeah,
(15:26):
you're investing in the people, you're hiring people at software,
but the investment goes up and down the elevator every day,
or you know, in the front door, as opposed to
building more plants and scaling up in cities to run
a robotaxi business. Also, frankly, I think it's unclear to
a lot of investors how robotaxi businesses are going to
make money because those fleets are very expensive to maintain.
(15:46):
But GM's not doing that. They're selling a service that
already has very nice margins. And GM gave some clarity
on that seventy percent margins to people who are already buying
their cars. So if you look at that a number
of people driving GM vehicles that could end up with
super crews or this advanced version of what they're doing
in twenty twenty eight, and maybe they licensed it to
(16:07):
another company. They're partnered with Hyundai in a lot of ways,
you know that. I think that's all good. Now, how
much investors choose to believe that GM is going to
hit a home run with that? That that's the open
question because the car companies are never going to doing
business to consumer kind of stuff. They're they're good at
manufacturing stuff and handing it off to a dealer who
faces off with the customer. But hey, it's it's sort
(16:27):
of all icing on the cake. It's all potential upside
here for GM, as opposed to, you know, spending billions
to develop a big robotaxi business like they.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
We should clarify. So the self driving I know a
lot of people you know, like to pick knits when
you talk about autonomous driving. The idea is now, with
super crews, you have you can have hands off driving.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
And eyes off.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I thought eyes off is what they're coming out with
in twenty Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, okay, so
now the deal is for people who don't drive GM
vehicles or haven't tried this, because it's also an expensive option.
That's why the margins are high. Right, if you get
it on a luxury GM you know, g Javior Cadillact
vehicle exactly, you can it completely takes over for you.
(17:14):
And David they said that they'd done seven hundred thousand
million miles, so seven hundred billion miles of hands off
driving the Super Crews without an accident that's attributed to
the system. Have you used the system? What do you
think about it?
Speaker 4 (17:30):
I've used Supercrews. I haven't used obviously the new one
they're going to put out.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
No, I mean the Current, the Current. I've used the.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
Current when in the hummer, and it is really good.
Like you're on the highway, you signal that you want
to change lanes, it'll change lanes for you, it'll pass cars.
It is very good. It's hands free. I'm not a
big fan of the these hands free systems because eventually
you have to get your hand back on the wheel, right,
Like you can't do that, Like interminably.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Can you take your all the way off the wheel
or do you have to like rest your fingers on.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
You can take it all the way off the wheel,
but you have to put it back on after a
certain amount of time.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
It's also critical, you said on the highway, because these
don't work on surface streaks.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
That's right at the moment.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
So you have this hands free system, but you do
have to keep your eyes engaged, and if you take
your eyes off the road with supercrews currently, it will
warn you to put them back on, and then if
you don't, it'll it'll slow the vehicle down and stop it.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
I have both in the hummer and in the in
the escalade.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
That's a little bit with David.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
It's it's to me, it's like you still have to
be engaged driving. You can't just fall asleep and take
a nap. You still, like David said, you still have
to be paying attention and looking at the road even
if your hands aren't on the steering wheel. So it
allows for a little bit more of a relaxed state.
(18:52):
But exactly that's what it feels like. And also it's
not great about exiting. It will exit, but you kind
of have to you have to pay paying attention. Yeah,
it's what I would say. You still have to you
still have to be engaged. It's not like take a nap.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
Yeah, so, Matt, I don't know if you noticed this yesterday,
if you crawled around that escalated IQ, that's the Electric
Cadillac Escalade. But they had a video screen that was
showing episodes of White Lotus. Yes, with the implication being
that you can really kind of zone out here and
watch a movie or TV.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
This is for the twenty twenty eight version. Yeah, yeah,
that's right, right, that would be an update.
Speaker 4 (19:34):
Yeah, so presumably can go to sleep. Now, what you
can't do, crucially, you can't sit in the backseat, which
you can with the Robotaxi systems, right, you have to
be in the front seat. Reason being is, well, look
what Waimo does, what Zekes does, and that's the other
Robotaxi company and Mame Mobility for that matter, is they
are tightly geofenced that they can only pick people up
(19:57):
and offer fares in rids to fares and certain areas.
That's sort of similar with current supercrews and the future addition,
it's on the highway and then once you get off
the highway onto surface streets, which is probably why Hana
was having a tough time with the off ramp. You
have to re engage now. Sterley Anderson told me that
(20:17):
eventually they want to get to the point where they're
doing this on surface streets in urban areas as well,
and they want to add more models beyond the Escalate IQ.
So look, Sterley Anderson's had a product development at General Motors.
His background is obviously he came from Aurora Innovation, which
is av trucking right now, but before that he worked
on autopilot for Tesla, and he did his PhD paper
(20:39):
in mechanical engineering on autonomous technology. So what he told
me the quote I had my story was you know,
if I'm gonna paraphrase, but he said, basically, I'd be
a curious choice to be CEO if the company didn't
believe in autonomy. So they're really going to push this thing.
And honestly, if you look at what else is out
there on the market, Tesla's full self driving is not
(21:02):
a totally hands free system. You must put your hands
back on the wheel at a certain point. Mercedes and
BMW have some nice systems, but Honey You've probably driven
those more than I have, but don't they top out
around forty miles per hour?
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Yes, Mercedes has a Level three system that is not
legal in all states that similarly, it will do some
highway and some street driving. But everybody's got some of
this and it's not legal everywhere.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
That's the other thing, you know, the regulations.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
So I'm curious, David. You seem to this quote from
Sirling Anderson, which you pointed out, does indicate that this
is a real commitment. This isn't just gms sort of
trying to stay relevant and act like they are going
to be moving in the future, but they're leaving themselves
and out in case they don't want to pursue this.
(21:59):
Is that your sense that this is a real This
is real?
Speaker 4 (22:02):
Yeah, it is, and I think hiring Sterling says that
because and look also, this is the story I broke
a while back. One of his first meetings with the
new staff, the software people at gm IS, he said
that he was hiring people, some of the former cruise
people back, and he also brought in people from elsewhere,
and he confirmed all of that for me yesterday too.
(22:23):
They've hired autonomous talent from from other places as well.
So yeah, they're they're they're really pushing this. And look,
to me, this was a surprise because when Cruz was
shut down, GM said, yeah, we're going to develop a
personally owned autonomous vehicle. But this is a company whose
shareholders rewarded it for getting out of autonomy, whose general
(22:43):
counsel's office and lobbyists went through. I'd say, you know,
some very very tough months after the car drag, somebody
and the California and federal regulators leaned all over them.
This was a nightmare for them. And I just thought,
knowing how GM responds to shareholders and regulators, which is
to say very accommodatingly, we're never going to see this
(23:05):
car from GM. So now Sterling comes back and we're
going to see it's not the autonomous robotaxi, but it
really is moving pretty far along the spectrum from hands
hands off driving or level two toward actual level four autonomy.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Wait, can I just ask about general motors? Seems to
have done very well in certain areas. For example, the
evs have massive range. I remember the first time I
drove an Audi EV, the Etron. You know, I don't
know six seven years ago, and I was impressed, but
I couldn't get a lot of range. This week, as
Hanna and I were talking about, I'm in a Portia Taikon,
(23:39):
which is amazing, but it's you know, two hundred miles
or so of real range, maybe less if you're really
gunning it, whereas GM has managed four hundred plus miles
on these big giant trucks. They've also had, I think,
a technological advantage in that they're infotainment systems. You know
(24:01):
now are a lot of times they're dropping Apple Car Play,
but you don't need it because they're so useful and
effective as they as they are, and they have this
broad product offering, like if you want an ev from them,
and I know it's not currently on vogue, but you
can get everything from an Equinox or a Bolt, you know,
(24:22):
lower prices through to the higher end trucks and the
massively expensive you know, Cadillacs. So why does GM seem
to be doing so well compared to others with these
high higher tech projects. And am I reading that wrong?
(24:43):
David No, I.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Think you're reading it pretty well. I mean, look like
it's just funny debate. I had a few years ago
on another automotive TV show, where the host said, you know,
he was making fun of Cadillac because Cadillacs had its
troubles over the years. He said, GM basically said GM
sucks at luxury, and I said, that's not really true.
I said, Cadillac has sucked at bringing in luxury buyers.
(25:06):
I said, but if you look at GMC, they sell
four hundred to six hundred thousand vehicles a year, and
I think about half of them are the Denali brand,
which is these are basically Cadillacs with like kind of
more trucky trims inside, but they're luxury vehicles and they're
really expensive. So GM brings in a lot of very
(25:26):
well healed consumers. Cadillac's gotten better through the EVS, but
between some very expensive Chevy pickups, corvettes, now some Hummers,
and the GMC line, they have customers pay a lot
of money for their vehicles and they like technology. Most
luxury buyers do. So, you know, I think GM, in
(25:48):
a way that Jeep has been unable to do, is
identified that there are people who like big vehicles obviously,
and they like them to be luxurious, but they don't
necessarily want the conspicuous consumption of an ostentation brand.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
I was just going to say sorry, I was just
going to say that is it's a very interesting juxtaposition.
And I was in Texas last week driving around the
juxtaposition between how much money something costs and whether or
not it's considered a luxury item. And this goes back
to the six figure trucks, which somehow are not considered
(26:22):
flashy and luxury items, but they cost so much money.
Speaker 4 (26:27):
And they called them cowboy ketto as.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
There you go, perfect example where it is a weird
mind trick that the automakers play where they sort of
sneak in all the luxury things and that price point,
but it's not considered too flashy for the neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
It's also part of the selling point. I mean, I
remember when I first moved to Bronxville, which is kind
of a Shei Shei suburb of New York, and noticed
that all the moms were driving Yukon Denaleys that's on
the right side, because because they didn't want to be
driving the sort of kardashian esque escalades, but they wanted
all the same rooms and room and functionality, and so
(27:08):
I guess they went with the Denale thinking it was
kind of more under the radar or kind of like
a you know you acceptable, yeah, yeah, and it's it's.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
Just less of an obnoxious thing, and but it's it's big,
and it's kind of if an escalade is kind of
brash in its styling, and I think it probably I
think it probably is. You know, gmcal a, gmc yukon
Denale is it would be much more understated. But you
(27:37):
sit inside those things and they are very much wucked
out and they're very expensive. I've said, for a long time,
I thought Tesla was a luxury brand. Now I think
they've given that away by stripping down and discounting their cars.
But for the longest time, back when they were selling
Model wives and Model threes for sixty five thousand dollars,
other automotive journalists, but you know, it would get angry
(27:58):
at me like it's not luxury at and said, I'm like, look,
I know it's very spartan inside, but if you're you know,
you're paying that much for you know, a four passenger
small vehicle like like a Model three or Model Y,
that's a luxury good.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
If you're paying I was I was saying, I was
probably one of the people disagreeing with you because I
was like, this is not luxury, this.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Is this is this is an age old discussion. Hannah
and I have what.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
Hannah's right too, because it doesn't have luxury amployments because
the interiors are frankly, you know, very spartan and just
not posh at all. However, I'm with my degrees in economics.
I look at a luxury good from an economy from
an economists definition, which is you're paying a hell of
a lot more for it for something that does the
same thing as a twenty two thousand dollars Chevy Tracks.
(28:46):
But it was a different kind of luxury in the
sense that if you look at an eyewatch on iPhone,
you're you're paying more for those products than you do
for other things. And the luxury is actually in the
functionality and technology and the HMI, even though it's really
simple design. Now these days, I wouldn't say Tesla even
a model US, I'm not sure i'd call luxury anymore
because they just they haven't done anything with the interiors.
(29:09):
I mean, like I thought with Tesla that the missed
opportunity with Cybertruck was not just that the styling is
strange to many people, but I sort of understand the
styling in a weird sci fi kind of way. If
the interior was expensive and matched it in a weird
sci fi kind of way, I think they would have
kind of had a hit with that. Yeah, and it
would have been it would have had a sort of
(29:31):
a weird cool factor to it. But they took a
pass like they always do on interiors, and therefore it's
not it's not a luxurious product, but it's a luxury good.
If I can kind of split it that way.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
That's a good good end note, David, thank you so
much for joining us. We are out of time with you,
but we love having you come on and please come on.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
More, and we love reading your stories and you're doing this.
Did a great job running that bureau in Detroit.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
Thank you, handle of your stuff. Mad loved being with
you on the air all the time, So let's do it. Thanks.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
Coming up, I've got a new column on old rolls
royces and why they may need a little bit of defending.
That's coming up right after this.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
You're listening to Bloomberg's Hot Pursuit. I'm Matt Miller along
with Hannah Elliott. Hannah, I want to talk about your
latest column. It's something that we talk about all the
time a fair amount.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
I mean, this is honestly, this is not going to
be anything new to anyone who's listened to this well,
but I think it is new to some people.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
It's still an important discussion, and I think it centers
around one of the smartest piece of pieces of advice
that you give to people, which is, you know, when
you're looking for something in the market new that's overpriced
or that doesn't exist, why not just look at something
in the secondhand market. I mean, we don't all need
(30:56):
to buy products that no one else has had before.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
That's exactly right. And we've talked about how the price
of new vehicles is kind of astronomical and we get
very desensitized to it in our job and the things
that we do to report because it's we talk about
them all the time. But really, like even the most
basic nine to eleven is more than one hundred and
thirty thousand dollars just to even get a nine to
(31:21):
eleven ferraris if you want to talk ferrari are averaging
four hundred and fifty seven thousand dollars for a new one,
and that's not including the weight time, and that's not
including if you want a special edition version, which tax
on another you know, forty to eighty percent of that price.
So new cars are crazy expensive. We I think we
(31:44):
both can relate to the feeling that we want to
have something that feels unique, that feels like it reflects
our personality. But it can feel like an arms race,
and it can be depressing. Really define that.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
And it's not even just luxury, right. I think weeks
Togo Cox Automotive came out with a figure that for
the first time, the average new car price, that's the
average purchase in a mode not just luxury cars, is
more than fifty thousand dollars.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Yeah, that's wild.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
So and you know, I always talk about the fact
that I'm shopping a suburban. I really want to get
a big suburban for my family. I have to have
the six point two liter V eight. Obviously, I'm not
going to go with the five point three when there's
a bigger one out there. But every time I put
one together, it costs eighty nine or ninety two thousand dollars.
(32:33):
And that's for like what is considered, at least when
I was a kid, the ultimate family vehicle. Right, Sure,
that's not.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Going to give you rockstar status, but I'll tell you
something that will. An old Rolls Rice.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Laugh.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
I laugh because you have heard me go through it
with complaining about, you know, a breakdown every now and then.
This is true, but I have to say the upside
of owning something vintage so far out weighs any minor
discomfort are set back.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
I mean, but does it outweigh like the repair bills,
because this is what I always wonder. You see Rolls
Royce's on bat or you know, maybe Craig's list. I look.
I always look for these Bentley Turbo rs. I love, yes,
yes shapes that is so you. They apparently are great
(33:28):
to drive as well. I never have, but I listen
to Matt Farrah talk about the one.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
He bought a matter of time, and you can get
they can be had for you know, twenty five thirty
five forty thousand dollars in what looks like pretty good shape.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
But then I fear taking taking it to Charlie Agapo
and paying like I know, ten thousand dollars repair bills.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
I know, and Look, the truth is sometimes the cost
of the repair and maintenance may exceed the price and
value of the car. That is true, and that is
because to your point, a Rose Ray Silver Shadow is
a twenty grand car now over the years market in
(34:15):
the US market, yes, from nineteen seventies, call it. I
have not spent twenty grand on repairs and maintenance for
that car, and I don't anticipate that I will. I've
spent a couple grand here and there to do electrical
work and to replace cracked hoses and that sort of thing,
but nothing major knock on wood. But yeah, the cars
(34:37):
are pretty inexpensive, which means that, yes, the repairs in
proportion to the cost of the car are high.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
But again.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
It's still less than buying an eighty grand suburban. And
the amount of joy and pleasure and delight that I
get from the car far outweighs the cost. As that
famous saying goes, the quality will remain long after the
price is forgotten, and that is true.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Well, and you can also probably easily fit two rear
facing car seats in the back for sure, and a
lot of stuff in the boot, So I guess you
know it would make sense. I think part of it
depends on the generation that you buy. So I'm always
looking at the s Z series, which is that the
(35:28):
eighties and nineties Rolls, Royce's and Bentley's that had a
lot more I guess high tech things going on in
the motor that need I don't know if it's always
engine out, but expensive repairs.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
So in the.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Silver Shadow that you're interested in is the s Y
series that was the previous nineteen sixty five to nineteen
eighty and just seems like maybe they come with a
lower bill.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Probably I think that's true, and I want you to
have a Bentley from the nineties, like this feels very you.
I want this for you. And to that end, I
have looked at prices, and you're right, it's all just
more expensive. Like the closer to modern day you get,
it all gets more and more expensive, which is a
little bit out of my price point, which is why
(36:20):
mine are in the seventies, although I do have one
from the mid eighties, a Spur that is actually the
one that's running the best right now, so that's the
one I drive to work. Again, I don't think it's
for everyone, like everyone can find their sweet spot, but
I really recommend old cars.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
All right, Well, that does it for this week's show.
Remember to follow and subscribe to Hot Pursuit on Apple, Spotify,
and anywhere else you listen to podcasts. Feel like to
search Bloomberg Hot Pursuit. You can also send us your comments.
Email us at hot Pursuit at bloomberg dot net.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
And you can check out my columns and stories on
Bloomberg dot com and the Bloomberg Business App. You can
go there for car reviews, events and stories that you
won't find anywhere else. Find it all at Bloomberg dot com,
slash Pursuits, slash Autos.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
I'm Hannah Elliott and I'm Matt Miller. We'll be back
with a fresh episode in your podcast Speed next week.
Hosts And Creators
Hannah Elliott
Matt Miller
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