October 9, 2025 • 21 mins
Meta’s Adam Mosseri joins Bloomberg’s Kurt Wagner to discuss new tools for creators, AI in feeds and the $500B creator economy at Bloomberg Screentime in Los Angeles.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Well, let's head back
to the screen Time main stage, the theater here at
screen Time and to Adam Asari, he's the head of Instagram.
Over at Meta Platforms.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
He's speaking with Blueberg News.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Is Kurt Wagner mister Beast. Everyone in this audience already
knows who that is. I don't need to explain who
mister Beast is. He posted actually on Threads. This was
his Threads post, which is also your platform, that it's
scary times for creators because of these gen AI tools
that are coming out. What do you think should creators
be scared as the scary times?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I think things are changing really quickly, and I think
that means that a lot of us, whether you're using
a platform like Jimmy is or you're building a platform
like we do on our team, are having to think
about how we need to evolve how we do what
we do. The jobs are changing, and so I don't
(00:57):
think that technology from the creator's side is going to
place creativity. I think it's going to change who can
be creative. I think it's going to change how people
tell their stories. But at the end of the day,
I think that people have creators and creatives. They have
their taste, they have their processes, they have their judgments,
they have their cultural commentary, and they're going to use
(01:20):
those in different ways than before. Because to produce a
video isn't going to require what Jimmy has historically done
with Mister Beast and these huge sets and these amazing
elaborate production teams. It's going to be something that anybody
can do with access to the right model.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
So on the one hand, it will make certain things easier,
it will lower the bar for what it takes to,
you know, produce maybe something that feels highly like produced.
Does this create more creators? Does this create an upper
crust of creators, you know, because there's now so many
(02:00):
more people who can do this.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I think it'll mean that today's creators, if they lean
into the tools, are the ones who do will be
able to create more or even better content. But I
think it also means that they're going to be people
who couldn't be creators before who can now actually produce
content of a certain quality or at a certain scale.
But it also means they're going to be bad actors
(02:22):
who try to leverage these technologies for nefarious purposes as well.
So it's going to be well if you think a
big step back, what the Internet did, among other things,
was allow almost anyone to become a publisher, right, reducing
the cost of distributing content to essentially zero. And what
(02:42):
some of these generative AI models look like they're going
to do is they're going to reduce the cost of
producing content to basically zero. So that will be a
multiplier effect on the things that we're already seeing, which
is that there's more people producing more content and reaching
more people, and there's a lot of good and bad
that comes downstream from that.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Yeah, So, as someone who creates an algorithm and intended
to show people things that they want to see, do
you anticipate I don't know if you can break down
what the average person has seen right now in terms
of stuff that's AI generated versus you know, maybe more
traditional human generated. But what's that going to look like
in a year or in five years. Are we going
to be seeing a feed just full of AI stuff
(03:24):
or is there a human element that's going to be
important here?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Well? Today on the big platforms like Instagram and TikTok
and Facebook and YouTube, I think there's actually a lot
of hybrid content. And too often we talk about synthetic
content and organic content and never the chee shop meet.
But there's a lot of content where AI is part
of the workflow, right, Like you might not even know it.
Might be whatever app you're using to do color correction,
(03:49):
might be using models to do so, you know, stamp
tool and photoshop in the old days to get rid
of a pimple, those types of things. But that line
is going to be more and more blurred, so it's
going to be little bit less like what is organic
content and what is AI synthetic content and what the
percentages are. I think it's going to be actually more
in the middle than pure synthetic content for a while.
(04:10):
But you will also see experiences that are purely AI, right.
You see this in the last two weeks with Vibes
in the medi app and with Soa too from open Ai.
So I think you're going to see both.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
You mentioned there's a lot of potential for bad actors
out there. We talked a few weeks ago, actually Instagram
announced three billion users and we had a conversation then,
and one of the things you said was, you know,
you rely especially with AI on a lot of self reporting,
people have to sort of let their audience know I
used AI for this. A lot of people don't do that.
(04:47):
I'm curious what responsibility you think Instagram and Meta have
versus how much of it is on the content creator themselves,
Like do you need to be identifying that something is
AI and alerting the audience to it or is it
all on the creator.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
I think that we can do more to identify content
that was created with AI. We actually when we first
did it, we were doing we were using the xf
data and a bunch of people got mad at us
because Photoshop was exporting content and the AI was part
of the flow, and then we were saying it was
AI content. But the creator was like, this is an
AI content. But if you actually looked at how the flow.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Was made, they thought Photoshop was AI.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
They had used some tool and Photoshop that triggered that. Okay,
I think it was Photoshop, or maybe it was Premiere
I forget which AAP. So it's sort of a delicate matter.
For what is worth though, I think that trying to
automatically label everything that was created in some part with AI,
particularly when there's a lot of hybrid content where it's
only part of the process is a little bit of
(05:47):
it's not a fool's erran, but it's it's maybe the
wrong focus. I think what's gonna happened quickly is that
you can still kind of tell when content was created
by AI. Not always but usually pretty good.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
It's hard, it's hard, harder.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
It's getting harder, and I think pretty soon it'll be
almost impossible. And so I think what we need to
do is, sure, we can work more on labeling, but
we also need to provide more context for people to
make more informed decisions about what to believe in to
not so like the way you think about, you know, literacy.
(06:23):
For like my kids, my kids are young, they're nine
to seven and five. I need them to understand as
they grow up and they get exposed to the Internet
that just because they're seeing a video of something doesn't
mean it actually happened. And they when I grew up
and I saw a video, I could assume that that
was a capture of a moment that happened in the
real world. And what they're going to need to do
(06:44):
is they're going to need to think about who is
saying it, who's sharing it in this case, and what
are their incentives and why might they be saying it?
And there's going to be way more importance if you're
going to make good decisions about what to trust and
what to allow to inform your own opinions, we're gonna
(07:04):
have to shift emphasis away from the content itself and
not to ignore it, but just away from it and
put more on who's saying it and why they might
be saying it.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah, but you're doing that as an involved parent.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
But as a platform, we can provide context too, right,
and we do today, but we can do more like today.
If you go to my profile, you can go to
about this profile. You can see how long I've had
this profile, what country I'm based in, how many times
I've changed my user name, a series of signals that
you can use to decide how much you want to
trust or not trust. Or maybe it's not even about
(07:39):
positive miniccative. Maybe it's just about my political bias or
my financial bias or any other kind of bias of it.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah, it feels like it's evolving. Obviously the Instagram app
is evolving as well. That was a big part of
our last conversation. I think people still think of I
shouldn't say I certainly still part of me thinks of
Instagram as the feed of beautiful, curated photos and videos
like that is maybe it's certainly an older way of
thinking about it. You're leaning very hard into this sort
(08:08):
of newer version of Instagram, which is DMS, stories, reels.
Walk us through a little bit about where your priorities
are with Instagram right now, Like, is the traditional feed
a thing in.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
The past at this point, it's certainly changing. All the
growth in Instagram over the last five years or more
has really come from dms and reels and recommendations and stories.
But we started as a feed of hypersaturated photos, you know,
glossy landscapes. You guys can all picture the aesthetic, and
(08:43):
that's just not how people use Instagram anymore. Our biggest
risk is that the world evolves, we don't keep up
and we just become irrelevant. If we hadn't built dms
and stories and reels, you wouldn't be interviewing me on
stage today. We wouldn't be relevant enough to show up
at screen time. But moving it forward is also tricky.
(09:04):
People get frustrated when you have an when they have
an experience that they use for call it half an
hour a day, and then someone comes and changes it
without asking them. So it's a balance. But we have
to because if we didn't, we would be in trouble.
I mean, like I'll do like probably shouldn't do this
because nobody can see the audience on camera. But how
many of you use Instagram? It's okay if you don't
(09:25):
raise your hand really high so I can see. Cool.
How many of you keep your hand up? Have messaged
someone in the last two days? Great? How many? Now?
How many of you have posted a story in the
last couple of days? All right, so maybe about half?
From about it was like eighty percent. How many of
you posted something to feed in the last two days?
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Those watching, the number of hands is very minimal.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
We have seven.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
We went from like almost everybody to seven.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yeah, that's how Instagram is used. We connect with friends,
we explore our interests. But we so by seeing a
reel and sending it to someone who we think might
enjoy it, or responding to a story, or sharing a
fleeting moment, or posting a note. Actually, if you're you know,
younger than I am, it's posting to your feed is
(10:13):
just not the primary way people express themselves.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yeah, and that's evidenced by some of the stuff you're doing.
So I want to get into this sort of test
you're doing with reels. You launch an iPad app, which
people have been clamoring for for a long time. If
you the iPad ad opens directly into reels, so it
doesn't open into the traditional feed, you're now kicked into
this short form video experience. You're testing that in India
(10:36):
as well. Ye is this the future? Like a year
from now, are we all going to open up Instagram
and instead of seeing that feed, are we just going
to be kicked into you know what? Maybe feels like.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
TikTok so when you know Yeah, So the test in
India right now is an opt in and it opens.
You have stories at the top still, but if you
scroll down, it scrolls into reels. But if you look
at the reels tab and the main feed tab, there
are two primary differences. The one is full screen media.
At times you see one piece, one photo or video
at a time, and that is the reels tab, whereas
(11:11):
Feed is free scrolling and then reels has more videos
and more recommendations and feed has less, but they both
have recommendations. They both have photos, they both have carousels,
and they both have videos. It's just a balance, and
so it's really a design difference and then a ranking difference.
I think just swapping them doesn't really make sense. But
(11:31):
I think that if a more immersive media is really
driving all our growth, if we can figure out a
way to transition the app to that being the experience
that you swipe into, then that would probably be a
good thing if we can make it happen. The questions
can we make it happen responsibly without you pissing everybody off,
without really hurting the business because the monetization efficiency of
(11:54):
video is lower by finding the right balance. It's probably
not ranked exactly as one is or the other is today,
but that is definitely something I want to explore.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Yeah, I mean, from the outside, it's hard not to
look at that and think tik TikTok is driving this
change for you. How much do you think about TikTok
as a It's obviously a major competitor, But I'm wondering
how much something like this is driven maybe by what
you're seeing from competition.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Curious about this data, what is this data aduls eighteen
to thirty four average audience by hour. I don't know
what that means. Cool. Definitely think about TikTok, Definitely think
about YouTube. Definitely think about Snapchat. I mean, the immersive
viewer is pre dates TikTok, right. I think Cacao Stories
pioneered the stories format, which was an immersive viewer. Yeah
(12:42):
in Korea. It was popularized by Snapchat worldwide, so they
should get a lot of credit for that. TikTok was
applying that immersive viewer that native first experience too short
from video, and they should get a lot of credit
for that. And now obviously you've got YouTube shorts, Instagram
real Facebook reels and the rest of it. We think
a lot about TikTok because they are really good at
(13:04):
what they do. They are better than I think the
rest of the industry at this point at a couple
things at breaking new talent at.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
In like identifying up and coming creators. Is that what
you mean?
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah? So the way it works is when you're ranking
content and you want to drive engagement, it's easier to
drive engagement by showing content that you know lots of
people like than to try and discover content that you
might love that you didn't even know about yet, that
might be from a really small name or small creator.
And that's called exploration based ranking, when you try to
(13:38):
literally almost test out things to see if they have legs,
if there's an audience for them. They are really good
at exploration based ranking. We're closing that gap, but we're
not all the way there yet. YouTube isn't actually great
at that. YouTube is the best I think in the
market at paying out creators through revshare. That's because they're
(14:01):
still mostly long form and long form. They've done a
really good job with their in or their pre rules
and their mid roles. But I think TikTok has been
like really culturally relevant because they've been able to break
small names. They've been really timely, so trends happen really quickly,
and they've just been reliably really fun and entertaining.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Yeah, there's obviously I'm sure you followed. There's a deal now,
a proposed deal for TikTok to stay in the United States.
It's kind of unique because it calls for the US
government to be somewhat involved and you know, if not managing,
at least overseeing this new US TikTok does this worry
(14:41):
you at all? Like that the US government might perhaps
have an incentive for TikTok to do better than Instagram.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Be careful of my words.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
We're all friends here. You're welcome to say whatever you want.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
What could go wrong? Yeah, I'll say a few things.
I do think it's good that TikTok is still going
to be in the US. It would certainly make our
lives easier on the professional side to have less competition,
But I think competition is fundamentally healthy. They've pushed us
to do better work. I think it's good for the
consumer and it's good for competition, So I'm glad that
(15:18):
they're still going to be around. On the specifics of
the deal, it just seems all very hard to parse.
It looks like more or less there's a bit of
an ownership and a rev share change, but not an
actual real change in how it's built and in you know,
(15:39):
because you know by dancing TikTok share code. Historically, most
of the most the strongest ranking work has come out
of China. Like, I don't see anything that suggests that
any of how it's actually built it's going to meaningfully change.
It just seems like an ownership stake and a rev
share going that's split between obviously by dancing the new
(16:04):
owners here. But it's the same map, the same ranking system,
you know, the same creators that you're following, the same people.
It all sort of seamless. So it seems a little
bit hard to I'm not sure what to make of that.
It doesn't seem like it's a major change in terms
of incentives. Yeah, I mean we always want to be considered.
We always want to consider all the incentives of the
most relevant parties involved. But I just want to stay
(16:26):
focused on how do we make sure Instagram does a
great job where they're better than us, how do we
catch up where we think we've got a competitive advantage,
how do we double down? And how do we keep
moving forward and trying to make Instagram as valuable as
possible for people, and then trying not to get too
sucked into the noise of the of the drama of.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
The week, maybe supporting your direct competitors, all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
We think about it, but we try to focus on
what we can control and spend less time on what
we cannot.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
We'll only have a few more minutes. It's always flies
by there was a report that you guys are building
a TV app? Are you building a TV app? Let's
make some news.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
This is it. We're exploring TV. TV is an increasingly
important surface. It's been very important for YouTube. Neil's talked
about that publicly, the CEO there. It's been very important
for TikTok. So we'd like to figure out how to
make sure that we have we show up in a
compelling way on all the relevant devices. So we're definitely
(17:27):
exploring it, but nothing to announce today.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Why now, though, Why explore it now versus a few
years ago, because, as you point out.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
I wish we had explored a few Okay, why didn't you?
We've been busy. It seems like every year is a
little bit more intense and a little bit more wild.
I see that as a mistake though on my part,
so I'll take ownership for that. I know we've been
focusing a lot on ranking. We've been focusing a lot
(17:55):
on evolving the experience forward. We've been focusing a lot
on safety and parents. We've been focusing a lot of
just compliance. Like I said, the biggest risk that we
face is that the world changes too quickly. Not too
quickly it's going to change quickly, and we don't change
quickly enough to adapt. And if behavior in the consumption
of these platforms is moving to TV, then we need
(18:17):
to move to TV too as a form factor. And
if we're late, that's on us.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Right now, on you, right now, these videos.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Your deep voice that sounded it did.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Say it came off a little more dramatical. When I'm
on Instagram looking at video, it's almost all vertical video.
When I look at a TV, it's not. Have you
through this exploration, have you thought about whether the stuff
that's on Instagram today works on TV? Or do you
need to go out and you know, basically source new
video that fits a TV screen.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
I think the vertical content can work on TV because
I think we can also show there's a couple, we
can show social context, we can show you the comments,
we can show us as watching. There's a bunch of
things you can do with that space. We might we
do still have horizontal content. We might need to lean
into that too, but I'd rather first figure out how
we can embrace the content ecosystem that already exists and
(19:12):
the creatives that already exist on the platform. And if
we have to expand. If it turns out we have
to expand, then we'll certainly consider that.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Then it was going to say, it's our world in
which you go and you know, license more kickback content.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
I don't like licensing content if I can avoid it.
The look, we pay for lots of licensing in general,
for people are going to share stuff on our platform,
whether or not we want them to, music licenses, et cetera.
We're always going to try to make sure we pay
people for the rights, you know, when we need to.
But I wouldn't. I'm not interested in trying to go
get sports rights or exclusive entertainment rights because I'd much
(19:49):
rather be the second screen. I'd much rather be where
you talk about the game or the movie we're in.
I feel like connecting with your friends and short from
video can be really simp iiotic, and short form video
and long form video can be really symbiotic. But long
form video and connecting with your friends it's really difficult
to do in one place. If you're just watching a
(20:09):
basketball game or a movie or an hour long show,
it's a lot of time that you're not actually talking
to a friend. A lot of things you're not sending
to friends or seeing that you might send to friends,
et cetera. So I'd rather focus on user generated content
creators AI unless on premium long form licensed content.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
We've hit all the zeros very last, so that I
don't get in trouble. What's your one tip if you're
a creator trying to hit a big on Instagram today,
what's the one piece of advice you would give? And
again short, so that I don't get you.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Know, yeah, you don't get too much trouble out and
I can just fill a buster and go.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Yeah, exactly, get me back.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
I think it's really important to be intentional, specifically to
articulate what you're trying to accomplish by using a platform
like Instagram. So you might be trying to sell a
product or brand, or raise awareness for a cause or
build up demand for a brand. What just write down
what you're trying to accomplish, and then also to be
(21:11):
very clear about what is going to actually resonate with
an audience, what's going to work on the platform. And
you need to find a content strategy that is at
the overlap of those two things, because reach is great,
but reaches a means to an end. So if you
find content that is engaging, but it's not actually helping
you move towards your goals, it's useless. And if you
(21:31):
find content that is going to help you with your
goals but no one sees it, it's not going to
be effective. It is much harder to find a content
strategy that does both. But that's the job. That's the work,
and that's going to require persistence, intentionality, and experimentation. But
I really, I really preach the overlap
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Well, let's head back
to the screen Time main stage, the theater here at
screen Time and to Adam Asari, he's the head of Instagram.
Over at Meta Platforms.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
He's speaking with Blueberg News.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Is Kurt Wagner mister Beast. Everyone in this audience already
knows who that is. I don't need to explain who
mister Beast is. He posted actually on Threads. This was
his Threads post, which is also your platform, that it's
scary times for creators because of these gen AI tools
that are coming out. What do you think should creators
be scared as the scary times?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I think things are changing really quickly, and I think
that means that a lot of us, whether you're using
a platform like Jimmy is or you're building a platform
like we do on our team, are having to think
about how we need to evolve how we do what
we do. The jobs are changing, and so I don't
(00:57):
think that technology from the creator's side is going to
place creativity. I think it's going to change who can
be creative. I think it's going to change how people
tell their stories. But at the end of the day,
I think that people have creators and creatives. They have
their taste, they have their processes, they have their judgments,
they have their cultural commentary, and they're going to use
(01:20):
those in different ways than before. Because to produce a
video isn't going to require what Jimmy has historically done
with Mister Beast and these huge sets and these amazing
elaborate production teams. It's going to be something that anybody
can do with access to the right model.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
So on the one hand, it will make certain things easier,
it will lower the bar for what it takes to,
you know, produce maybe something that feels highly like produced.
Does this create more creators? Does this create an upper
crust of creators, you know, because there's now so many
(02:00):
more people who can do this.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I think it'll mean that today's creators, if they lean
into the tools, are the ones who do will be
able to create more or even better content. But I
think it also means that they're going to be people
who couldn't be creators before who can now actually produce
content of a certain quality or at a certain scale.
But it also means they're going to be bad actors
(02:22):
who try to leverage these technologies for nefarious purposes as well.
So it's going to be well if you think a
big step back, what the Internet did, among other things,
was allow almost anyone to become a publisher, right, reducing
the cost of distributing content to essentially zero. And what
(02:42):
some of these generative AI models look like they're going
to do is they're going to reduce the cost of
producing content to basically zero. So that will be a
multiplier effect on the things that we're already seeing, which
is that there's more people producing more content and reaching
more people, and there's a lot of good and bad
that comes downstream from that.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Yeah, So, as someone who creates an algorithm and intended
to show people things that they want to see, do
you anticipate I don't know if you can break down
what the average person has seen right now in terms
of stuff that's AI generated versus you know, maybe more
traditional human generated. But what's that going to look like
in a year or in five years. Are we going
to be seeing a feed just full of AI stuff
(03:24):
or is there a human element that's going to be
important here?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Well? Today on the big platforms like Instagram and TikTok
and Facebook and YouTube, I think there's actually a lot
of hybrid content. And too often we talk about synthetic
content and organic content and never the chee shop meet.
But there's a lot of content where AI is part
of the workflow, right, Like you might not even know it.
Might be whatever app you're using to do color correction,
(03:49):
might be using models to do so, you know, stamp
tool and photoshop in the old days to get rid
of a pimple, those types of things. But that line
is going to be more and more blurred, so it's
going to be little bit less like what is organic
content and what is AI synthetic content and what the
percentages are. I think it's going to be actually more
in the middle than pure synthetic content for a while.
(04:10):
But you will also see experiences that are purely AI, right.
You see this in the last two weeks with Vibes
in the medi app and with Soa too from open Ai.
So I think you're going to see both.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
You mentioned there's a lot of potential for bad actors
out there. We talked a few weeks ago, actually Instagram
announced three billion users and we had a conversation then,
and one of the things you said was, you know,
you rely especially with AI on a lot of self reporting,
people have to sort of let their audience know I
used AI for this. A lot of people don't do that.
(04:47):
I'm curious what responsibility you think Instagram and Meta have
versus how much of it is on the content creator themselves,
Like do you need to be identifying that something is
AI and alerting the audience to it or is it
all on the creator.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
I think that we can do more to identify content
that was created with AI. We actually when we first
did it, we were doing we were using the xf
data and a bunch of people got mad at us
because Photoshop was exporting content and the AI was part
of the flow, and then we were saying it was
AI content. But the creator was like, this is an
AI content. But if you actually looked at how the flow.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Was made, they thought Photoshop was AI.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
They had used some tool and Photoshop that triggered that. Okay,
I think it was Photoshop, or maybe it was Premiere
I forget which AAP. So it's sort of a delicate matter.
For what is worth though, I think that trying to
automatically label everything that was created in some part with AI,
particularly when there's a lot of hybrid content where it's
only part of the process is a little bit of
(05:47):
it's not a fool's erran, but it's it's maybe the
wrong focus. I think what's gonna happened quickly is that
you can still kind of tell when content was created
by AI. Not always but usually pretty good.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
It's hard, it's hard, harder.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
It's getting harder, and I think pretty soon it'll be
almost impossible. And so I think what we need to
do is, sure, we can work more on labeling, but
we also need to provide more context for people to
make more informed decisions about what to believe in to
not so like the way you think about, you know, literacy.
(06:23):
For like my kids, my kids are young, they're nine
to seven and five. I need them to understand as
they grow up and they get exposed to the Internet
that just because they're seeing a video of something doesn't
mean it actually happened. And they when I grew up
and I saw a video, I could assume that that
was a capture of a moment that happened in the
real world. And what they're going to need to do
(06:44):
is they're going to need to think about who is
saying it, who's sharing it in this case, and what
are their incentives and why might they be saying it?
And there's going to be way more importance if you're
going to make good decisions about what to trust and
what to allow to inform your own opinions, we're gonna
(07:04):
have to shift emphasis away from the content itself and
not to ignore it, but just away from it and
put more on who's saying it and why they might
be saying it.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah, but you're doing that as an involved parent.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
But as a platform, we can provide context too, right,
and we do today, but we can do more like today.
If you go to my profile, you can go to
about this profile. You can see how long I've had
this profile, what country I'm based in, how many times
I've changed my user name, a series of signals that
you can use to decide how much you want to
trust or not trust. Or maybe it's not even about
(07:39):
positive miniccative. Maybe it's just about my political bias or
my financial bias or any other kind of bias of it.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah, it feels like it's evolving. Obviously the Instagram app
is evolving as well. That was a big part of
our last conversation. I think people still think of I
shouldn't say I certainly still part of me thinks of
Instagram as the feed of beautiful, curated photos and videos
like that is maybe it's certainly an older way of
thinking about it. You're leaning very hard into this sort
(08:08):
of newer version of Instagram, which is DMS, stories, reels.
Walk us through a little bit about where your priorities
are with Instagram right now, Like, is the traditional feed
a thing in.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
The past at this point, it's certainly changing. All the
growth in Instagram over the last five years or more
has really come from dms and reels and recommendations and stories.
But we started as a feed of hypersaturated photos, you know,
glossy landscapes. You guys can all picture the aesthetic, and
(08:43):
that's just not how people use Instagram anymore. Our biggest
risk is that the world evolves, we don't keep up
and we just become irrelevant. If we hadn't built dms
and stories and reels, you wouldn't be interviewing me on
stage today. We wouldn't be relevant enough to show up
at screen time. But moving it forward is also tricky.
(09:04):
People get frustrated when you have an when they have
an experience that they use for call it half an
hour a day, and then someone comes and changes it
without asking them. So it's a balance. But we have
to because if we didn't, we would be in trouble.
I mean, like I'll do like probably shouldn't do this
because nobody can see the audience on camera. But how
many of you use Instagram? It's okay if you don't
(09:25):
raise your hand really high so I can see. Cool.
How many of you keep your hand up? Have messaged
someone in the last two days? Great? How many? Now?
How many of you have posted a story in the
last couple of days? All right, so maybe about half?
From about it was like eighty percent. How many of
you posted something to feed in the last two days?
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Those watching, the number of hands is very minimal.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
We have seven.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
We went from like almost everybody to seven.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yeah, that's how Instagram is used. We connect with friends,
we explore our interests. But we so by seeing a
reel and sending it to someone who we think might
enjoy it, or responding to a story, or sharing a
fleeting moment, or posting a note. Actually, if you're you know,
younger than I am, it's posting to your feed is
(10:13):
just not the primary way people express themselves.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yeah, and that's evidenced by some of the stuff you're doing.
So I want to get into this sort of test
you're doing with reels. You launch an iPad app, which
people have been clamoring for for a long time. If
you the iPad ad opens directly into reels, so it
doesn't open into the traditional feed, you're now kicked into
this short form video experience. You're testing that in India
(10:36):
as well. Ye is this the future? Like a year
from now, are we all going to open up Instagram
and instead of seeing that feed, are we just going
to be kicked into you know what? Maybe feels like.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
TikTok so when you know Yeah, So the test in
India right now is an opt in and it opens.
You have stories at the top still, but if you
scroll down, it scrolls into reels. But if you look
at the reels tab and the main feed tab, there
are two primary differences. The one is full screen media.
At times you see one piece, one photo or video
at a time, and that is the reels tab, whereas
(11:11):
Feed is free scrolling and then reels has more videos
and more recommendations and feed has less, but they both
have recommendations. They both have photos, they both have carousels,
and they both have videos. It's just a balance, and
so it's really a design difference and then a ranking difference.
I think just swapping them doesn't really make sense. But
(11:31):
I think that if a more immersive media is really
driving all our growth, if we can figure out a
way to transition the app to that being the experience
that you swipe into, then that would probably be a
good thing if we can make it happen. The questions
can we make it happen responsibly without you pissing everybody off,
without really hurting the business because the monetization efficiency of
(11:54):
video is lower by finding the right balance. It's probably
not ranked exactly as one is or the other is today,
but that is definitely something I want to explore.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Yeah, I mean, from the outside, it's hard not to
look at that and think tik TikTok is driving this
change for you. How much do you think about TikTok
as a It's obviously a major competitor, But I'm wondering
how much something like this is driven maybe by what
you're seeing from competition.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Curious about this data, what is this data aduls eighteen
to thirty four average audience by hour. I don't know
what that means. Cool. Definitely think about TikTok, Definitely think
about YouTube. Definitely think about Snapchat. I mean, the immersive
viewer is pre dates TikTok, right. I think Cacao Stories
pioneered the stories format, which was an immersive viewer. Yeah
(12:42):
in Korea. It was popularized by Snapchat worldwide, so they
should get a lot of credit for that. TikTok was
applying that immersive viewer that native first experience too short
from video, and they should get a lot of credit
for that. And now obviously you've got YouTube shorts, Instagram
real Facebook reels and the rest of it. We think
a lot about TikTok because they are really good at
(13:04):
what they do. They are better than I think the
rest of the industry at this point at a couple
things at breaking new talent at.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
In like identifying up and coming creators. Is that what
you mean?
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah? So the way it works is when you're ranking
content and you want to drive engagement, it's easier to
drive engagement by showing content that you know lots of
people like than to try and discover content that you
might love that you didn't even know about yet, that
might be from a really small name or small creator.
And that's called exploration based ranking, when you try to
(13:38):
literally almost test out things to see if they have legs,
if there's an audience for them. They are really good
at exploration based ranking. We're closing that gap, but we're
not all the way there yet. YouTube isn't actually great
at that. YouTube is the best I think in the
market at paying out creators through revshare. That's because they're
(14:01):
still mostly long form and long form. They've done a
really good job with their in or their pre rules
and their mid roles. But I think TikTok has been
like really culturally relevant because they've been able to break
small names. They've been really timely, so trends happen really quickly,
and they've just been reliably really fun and entertaining.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Yeah, there's obviously I'm sure you followed. There's a deal now,
a proposed deal for TikTok to stay in the United States.
It's kind of unique because it calls for the US
government to be somewhat involved and you know, if not managing,
at least overseeing this new US TikTok does this worry
(14:41):
you at all? Like that the US government might perhaps
have an incentive for TikTok to do better than Instagram.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Be careful of my words.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
We're all friends here. You're welcome to say whatever you want.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
What could go wrong? Yeah, I'll say a few things.
I do think it's good that TikTok is still going
to be in the US. It would certainly make our
lives easier on the professional side to have less competition,
But I think competition is fundamentally healthy. They've pushed us
to do better work. I think it's good for the
consumer and it's good for competition, So I'm glad that
(15:18):
they're still going to be around. On the specifics of
the deal, it just seems all very hard to parse.
It looks like more or less there's a bit of
an ownership and a rev share change, but not an
actual real change in how it's built and in you know,
(15:39):
because you know by dancing TikTok share code. Historically, most
of the most the strongest ranking work has come out
of China. Like, I don't see anything that suggests that
any of how it's actually built it's going to meaningfully change.
It just seems like an ownership stake and a rev
share going that's split between obviously by dancing the new
(16:04):
owners here. But it's the same map, the same ranking system,
you know, the same creators that you're following, the same people.
It all sort of seamless. So it seems a little
bit hard to I'm not sure what to make of that.
It doesn't seem like it's a major change in terms
of incentives. Yeah, I mean we always want to be considered.
We always want to consider all the incentives of the
most relevant parties involved. But I just want to stay
(16:26):
focused on how do we make sure Instagram does a
great job where they're better than us, how do we
catch up where we think we've got a competitive advantage,
how do we double down? And how do we keep
moving forward and trying to make Instagram as valuable as
possible for people, and then trying not to get too
sucked into the noise of the of the drama of.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
The week, maybe supporting your direct competitors, all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
We think about it, but we try to focus on
what we can control and spend less time on what
we cannot.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
We'll only have a few more minutes. It's always flies
by there was a report that you guys are building
a TV app? Are you building a TV app? Let's
make some news.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
This is it. We're exploring TV. TV is an increasingly
important surface. It's been very important for YouTube. Neil's talked
about that publicly, the CEO there. It's been very important
for TikTok. So we'd like to figure out how to
make sure that we have we show up in a
compelling way on all the relevant devices. So we're definitely
(17:27):
exploring it, but nothing to announce today.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Why now, though, Why explore it now versus a few
years ago, because, as you point out.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
I wish we had explored a few Okay, why didn't you?
We've been busy. It seems like every year is a
little bit more intense and a little bit more wild.
I see that as a mistake though on my part,
so I'll take ownership for that. I know we've been
focusing a lot on ranking. We've been focusing a lot
(17:55):
on evolving the experience forward. We've been focusing a lot
on safety and parents. We've been focusing a lot of
just compliance. Like I said, the biggest risk that we
face is that the world changes too quickly. Not too
quickly it's going to change quickly, and we don't change
quickly enough to adapt. And if behavior in the consumption
of these platforms is moving to TV, then we need
(18:17):
to move to TV too as a form factor. And
if we're late, that's on us.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Right now, on you, right now, these videos.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Your deep voice that sounded it did.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Say it came off a little more dramatical. When I'm
on Instagram looking at video, it's almost all vertical video.
When I look at a TV, it's not. Have you
through this exploration, have you thought about whether the stuff
that's on Instagram today works on TV? Or do you
need to go out and you know, basically source new
video that fits a TV screen.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
I think the vertical content can work on TV because
I think we can also show there's a couple, we
can show social context, we can show you the comments,
we can show us as watching. There's a bunch of
things you can do with that space. We might we
do still have horizontal content. We might need to lean
into that too, but I'd rather first figure out how
we can embrace the content ecosystem that already exists and
(19:12):
the creatives that already exist on the platform. And if
we have to expand. If it turns out we have
to expand, then we'll certainly consider that.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Then it was going to say, it's our world in
which you go and you know, license more kickback content.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
I don't like licensing content if I can avoid it.
The look, we pay for lots of licensing in general,
for people are going to share stuff on our platform,
whether or not we want them to, music licenses, et cetera.
We're always going to try to make sure we pay
people for the rights, you know, when we need to.
But I wouldn't. I'm not interested in trying to go
get sports rights or exclusive entertainment rights because I'd much
(19:49):
rather be the second screen. I'd much rather be where
you talk about the game or the movie we're in.
I feel like connecting with your friends and short from
video can be really simp iiotic, and short form video
and long form video can be really symbiotic. But long
form video and connecting with your friends it's really difficult
to do in one place. If you're just watching a
(20:09):
basketball game or a movie or an hour long show,
it's a lot of time that you're not actually talking
to a friend. A lot of things you're not sending
to friends or seeing that you might send to friends,
et cetera. So I'd rather focus on user generated content
creators AI unless on premium long form licensed content.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
We've hit all the zeros very last, so that I
don't get in trouble. What's your one tip if you're
a creator trying to hit a big on Instagram today,
what's the one piece of advice you would give? And
again short, so that I don't get you.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Know, yeah, you don't get too much trouble out and
I can just fill a buster and go.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Yeah, exactly, get me back.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
I think it's really important to be intentional, specifically to
articulate what you're trying to accomplish by using a platform
like Instagram. So you might be trying to sell a
product or brand, or raise awareness for a cause or
build up demand for a brand. What just write down
what you're trying to accomplish, and then also to be
(21:11):
very clear about what is going to actually resonate with
an audience, what's going to work on the platform. And
you need to find a content strategy that is at
the overlap of those two things, because reach is great,
but reaches a means to an end. So if you
find content that is engaging, but it's not actually helping
you move towards your goals, it's useless. And if you
(21:31):
find content that is going to help you with your
goals but no one sees it, it's not going to
be effective. It is much harder to find a content
strategy that does both. But that's the job. That's the work,
and that's going to require persistence, intentionality, and experimentation. But
I really, I really preach the overlap
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