May 28, 2025 • 15 mins
Former BP CEO and member of the UK House of Lords John Browne discusses his campaign to become Chancellor of the University of Cambridge with Bloomberg's Caroline Hepker and Lizzy Burden.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Now to a bit
of a different conversation, Caroline. John Brown spent forty two
years at BP, where as CEO, he famously led the
firms beyond Petroleum green reband as the firm acknowledged the
reality of climate change. Now he's going right back to
the beginning. He's running to become chancellor of the University
(00:24):
of Cambridge, which is a city where he both studied
and was raised. He's campaigning on the promise of bringing
a focus on sustainability, science and global engagement to the
ancient university. Will his years in the city stand him
in good stead. I'm pleased to say we're joined by
John Brown now and John Lovely to have you on
the program with us. I want to start with Cambridge
(00:46):
because you've occupied many an illustrious role. What is it
about the post of chancellor that attracts you and why
is it now?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Well, the great universities of the UK are different UK
from many other places in the world. They're right up
in the front and they make a very big difference
to society, to economic growth and to the state and
condition of society. And I believe I have a seat
(01:15):
at lots of tables. I left BP eighteen years ago
and I've been doing a whole variety of things since then,
which has given me a seat at the table to
allow me to have influence but not control over what
the universities will do to flourish for the future. And
Cambridge is a very important university in the world.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Absolutely, Why is the British government not issuing a more wide,
open armed welcome to students and researchers who can't or
don't want to remain in the US. As higher education
in the US is under enormous pressure to change according
(01:55):
to the Trump administrations of wishes, Why does the British
government And would you issue that welcome if you were
to be the chancellor at Cambridge, a really open armed
welcome to any students out of the US.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Well, look, I think the Cambridge University is built on
great people. Excellence is the big big point of Cambridge
and they have always had open arms for absolutely everybody.
So this is not just a new thing. It just
adds to what Cambridge does and I know that Cambridge
(02:32):
will do that. I think the government should do a
lot in this area. I know the Royal Society and
the Royal Academy of Engineering are actually now going to
add funds to this and other institutions. I chair the
Creek Institute, Big Biomedical Institute, and we're bringing forward the
recruitment of some of our group leaders and we hope
(02:53):
that the US will provide a lot of the candidates
for there.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
What part of your open eyes m Well can be
offering the opposite of Trump's anti woke push, an active
embrace of DEI.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Well, I think we embrace I think cambridg should embrace everything.
Cambridge stands for freedom of speech and freedom of investigation,
and that's very important. I believe that, you know, as
the saying goes, Cambridge is a place where they may
disagree with what people say. One party may disagree with
(03:30):
the other, but they will fight to allow that party
to say what they think. And I think that's where
this is how ideas are generated, how discoveries are made,
and how actually we make discoveries in science and technology
and make them applicable to society through the universal nature
(03:52):
of Cambridge, which is a place where humanities stand equal
to science, technology and mathematics.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Oxford and Cambridge are at the heart of this government's
plans for economic growth, and you hinted at it in
your first answer, how much do you think universities can
actually deliver for the chancellor? Rachel reeves in terms of
economic growth, it's a very difficult one for universities, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
It always is difficult. But I think there are things
which are very important for universities and the areas around
universities to have in that armory. The first is we
need to agglomerate activity around certain universities. The more people
who are glomerated around the university, and you can see
(04:43):
this for example in Boston and the United States, the
more successful it becomes. It sort of has momentum and
allows people to go from one place to the other
to fail and succeed. Secondly, we need the ability to
translate the discoveryveries that are made in universities into the
commercial space, and that's happening around Cambridge. It's happening around
(05:07):
Oxford as well. But more needs to be done and
I welcome some of the efforts that the Chancellor's made
in getting the city to invest in the companies that
need growth capital generated in the United Kingdom. That's something
that the Council on Science and technology, which I Shair
(05:29):
has been pushing very hard over the last two governments,
and it's pleasing to see that something is now happening
that will create growth, because growth comes from ushoots of
economic activity, businesses formed, and there are plenty of people
around Cambridge who can do just that given the right conditions.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
John, there's the growth issue, but there's also the inequality
issue when it comes to Cambridge, this famous divide between
town and gown.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
What would you do to rest well? I think actually
I went up to Cambridge to test the town and
gown that I remember when I was there at primary school.
I think it's going away very quickly, no doubt. Cambridge
need is as a city and as a broader catchment
(06:19):
area benefits from the university, and the university benefits from
getting housing and infrastructure right around Cambridge, so that divide
I think has gone down quite a lot. I've spoken
to people in the Cambridge the Cambridge hierarchy, the city hierarchy,
and it's very different. What it does need, though, is
(06:42):
investment in infrastructure and of course some housing. Housing tends
to come along if you have the right infrastructure and
the government some of the public purse has to be
spent on getting that right.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
I've spoken recently to the Vice to answered Deborah Apprentice
about the challenges posed by research funding and the lack
of research funding. How would you be able to influence
that in order to kind of build up research funding.
It again a kind of really critical time if Cambridge
wants to wants to deliver on its world class reputation.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
It really is well. I think I've got these acts
at the table to help discussion on where research funding
could go. The governments are very important funder of research,
but so too as the private sector. But the government
provides a lot of seed funding and it's very important
to get that focused in areas where we have world
(07:42):
class capability. Biomedical activity in Cambridge, the AI activity in Cambridge,
the energy and energy transition activity in Cambridge. Arguably the
sum total of all people in these areas and more
are the best in the world and they need funding.
So they get a lot of funding. We need to
(08:04):
see if we can expand sources of funding not just
from the government but also from worldwide sources and particularly
from the private sector. So private sector will follow provided
that there's something they can see which is developed from
research into the commercial area.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
I know that, I mean, you hint at it, but
there is the funding for research issue. But then you've
also got to actually get onto the AIM market, and
that's had record low new issues and a seventeen percent
plunge in market value in the first quarter. Is there
anything they think that could be done to revive that
so that you know, these great ideas can actually go
(08:44):
all the way to market and make some money, make
some growth.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
So look, I've actually had both companies, have shared companies
go onto AIM and coming off a. AIM is full
of far too many small companies that need to be
in private hands for long. There's no doubt about that,
because there aren't enough analysts to follow stocks which are
very small. I think, you know, real IPOs nowadays need
(09:10):
probably five billion dollars of enterprise value in order to
succeed really well. So it's just that there are plenty
of choices for investors. So I think the private markets,
both venture of growth, equity and growth and private equity
buyout are the areas that people need to focus more
(09:32):
on to get finance for these smaller companies. I think
the public markets do have a role, but the public
markets are quite demanding in scale and track record, and
they're not for everybody. I don't think you know, any
CEO keeps saying my ambition is to float the company,
(09:53):
is I think not saying the right thing. Surely the
ambition is to build a great product that fits into
a market that continues to not to necessarily.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Okay, Love Brown, thank you so much for being with
us this morning. It's very good to speak to you.
We are speaking to John Brown. Of course, you did
spend a long time at BP. I think it would
be remiss not to ask you, given your hugely prominent
role there, how much of a loss it would be
to the UK if the deal with Shell goes ahead.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Sure well, let me say, first of all, I left
BP eighteen years ago, so it's not just yesterday, and
I don't supervise BP. It would be a loss, of course,
it would be a great loss BP. Certainly, you know
when I was running it, we were the I think
fifth or seventh largest entire company in the entire world,
(10:49):
and it had great skill at developing responsibly order gas
and actually providing huge employment for every body. It was
at one time, of course, the provider of one pound
out of every six pounds in every single pension fund
in the UK. So I hope it's not lost because
(11:10):
it's a great part of the British business environment.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
So your advice to Murray arckingclass John.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
I have no advice for CEOs. I really think that
former CEO should keep out of advising president CEOs. This
is not a good idea.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Okay, take that point. In that case, let me return
to the fundamental issue, which is that the leading universities
in the world in the United States, most prominently Harvard,
are currently under enormous pressure from the Trump administration to
do what the Trump administration sees as being ideal. Harvard
(11:50):
is engaged in a significant battle. You've talked about, you know,
the idea of being able to exchange ideas freely at Cambridge.
Were you to lead that university, I want the US
and the current administration has also deeply criticize Britain, that
freedom of speech in Britain is under threat. What concrete
(12:11):
actions would you take to try to ensure that there
is freedom academically, freedom of speech for students, for researchers
at Cambridge going forwards. This seems to me a really
foundational challenge.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Well indeed, it is. But first of all, it's not
as if it's a new idea. It is what Cambridge
stands for, and it simply needs to be reinforced. I
think it's very important to take a strong position that
everything must be done to make sure that people can
speak freely, and they do not in so doing shut
(12:49):
down freedom of speech for the people who disagree with them.
So that needs to be pleased quite carefully, and there
are rules to do that and they should be forced.
There is no doubt actually those rules existed for a
long time.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
So then Cambridge has done a good job so far
in your view, and is exemplary right now, and you
want to continue that it's not bad.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
There are, of course, are always things that get in
the way, you know, and there are ups and downs.
But I don't think that long term values are judged
by sometimes things that go wrong that then are corrected.
So I think Cambridge needs to reinforce, it needs to
teach people that needs to stand out and everything they do,
(13:35):
and I may say they need to do research with
a freedom of investigation, research and scholarship.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
And so a message of support for Harvard University and
it's battled with the US administration.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Well, it's up to Harvard how they do this. I
think Harvard had a great obviously very great standing and
how they now go forward is very much in their
control and the circumstances of the day. But you know,
these changes in fashion and they are almost fascional or
(14:10):
probably a partial reading of values. They go up and
they go down. But in the end, the long term
value of the university, and they're trying to make that
point legally, is that that's unchanged, that they have freedom
of speech. That actually it's done in a way where
(14:31):
it allows they're losing.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
They are losing millions and millions in funding in the US,
so financially it's having it's potentially going to have a
much bigger and longer term and fundamental impact on Harvard,
led by the Harvard President, Alan Garber.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
That may be true, depending on how it all gets
through the courts and what happens over a run of years,
that may well be true. That is very much I'm
afraid is the nature of what is happening in the
United States, and it's the United States's choice to have
(15:10):
this administration in place, and it comes with these activities.
I don't think it may well spread in the world.
I hope it doesn't. We should be vigorous and very
strong to prevent it affecting what goes on in Cambridge University.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Okay, John Brown, really good to talk to you. We
thank you so much for your time. John Brown is
of course running to become Chancellor of the University of
Cambridge and was previously CEO of BP. John, we thank
you for joining us on the program.
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Now to a bit
of a different conversation, Caroline. John Brown spent forty two
years at BP, where as CEO, he famously led the
firms beyond Petroleum green reband as the firm acknowledged the
reality of climate change. Now he's going right back to
the beginning. He's running to become chancellor of the University
(00:24):
of Cambridge, which is a city where he both studied
and was raised. He's campaigning on the promise of bringing
a focus on sustainability, science and global engagement to the
ancient university. Will his years in the city stand him
in good stead. I'm pleased to say we're joined by
John Brown now and John Lovely to have you on
the program with us. I want to start with Cambridge
(00:46):
because you've occupied many an illustrious role. What is it
about the post of chancellor that attracts you and why
is it now?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Well, the great universities of the UK are different UK
from many other places in the world. They're right up
in the front and they make a very big difference
to society, to economic growth and to the state and
condition of society. And I believe I have a seat
(01:15):
at lots of tables. I left BP eighteen years ago
and I've been doing a whole variety of things since then,
which has given me a seat at the table to
allow me to have influence but not control over what
the universities will do to flourish for the future. And
Cambridge is a very important university in the world.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Absolutely, Why is the British government not issuing a more wide,
open armed welcome to students and researchers who can't or
don't want to remain in the US. As higher education
in the US is under enormous pressure to change according
(01:55):
to the Trump administrations of wishes, Why does the British
government And would you issue that welcome if you were
to be the chancellor at Cambridge, a really open armed
welcome to any students out of the US.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Well, look, I think the Cambridge University is built on
great people. Excellence is the big big point of Cambridge
and they have always had open arms for absolutely everybody.
So this is not just a new thing. It just
adds to what Cambridge does and I know that Cambridge
(02:32):
will do that. I think the government should do a
lot in this area. I know the Royal Society and
the Royal Academy of Engineering are actually now going to
add funds to this and other institutions. I chair the
Creek Institute, Big Biomedical Institute, and we're bringing forward the
recruitment of some of our group leaders and we hope
(02:53):
that the US will provide a lot of the candidates
for there.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
What part of your open eyes m Well can be
offering the opposite of Trump's anti woke push, an active
embrace of DEI.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Well, I think we embrace I think cambridg should embrace everything.
Cambridge stands for freedom of speech and freedom of investigation,
and that's very important. I believe that, you know, as
the saying goes, Cambridge is a place where they may
disagree with what people say. One party may disagree with
(03:30):
the other, but they will fight to allow that party
to say what they think. And I think that's where
this is how ideas are generated, how discoveries are made,
and how actually we make discoveries in science and technology
and make them applicable to society through the universal nature
(03:52):
of Cambridge, which is a place where humanities stand equal
to science, technology and mathematics.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Oxford and Cambridge are at the heart of this government's
plans for economic growth, and you hinted at it in
your first answer, how much do you think universities can
actually deliver for the chancellor? Rachel reeves in terms of
economic growth, it's a very difficult one for universities, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
It always is difficult. But I think there are things
which are very important for universities and the areas around
universities to have in that armory. The first is we
need to agglomerate activity around certain universities. The more people
who are glomerated around the university, and you can see
(04:43):
this for example in Boston and the United States, the
more successful it becomes. It sort of has momentum and
allows people to go from one place to the other
to fail and succeed. Secondly, we need the ability to
translate the discoveryveries that are made in universities into the
commercial space, and that's happening around Cambridge. It's happening around
(05:07):
Oxford as well. But more needs to be done and
I welcome some of the efforts that the Chancellor's made
in getting the city to invest in the companies that
need growth capital generated in the United Kingdom. That's something
that the Council on Science and technology, which I Shair
(05:29):
has been pushing very hard over the last two governments,
and it's pleasing to see that something is now happening
that will create growth, because growth comes from ushoots of
economic activity, businesses formed, and there are plenty of people
around Cambridge who can do just that given the right conditions.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
John, there's the growth issue, but there's also the inequality
issue when it comes to Cambridge, this famous divide between
town and gown.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
What would you do to rest well? I think actually
I went up to Cambridge to test the town and
gown that I remember when I was there at primary school.
I think it's going away very quickly, no doubt. Cambridge
need is as a city and as a broader catchment
(06:19):
area benefits from the university, and the university benefits from
getting housing and infrastructure right around Cambridge, so that divide
I think has gone down quite a lot. I've spoken
to people in the Cambridge the Cambridge hierarchy, the city hierarchy,
and it's very different. What it does need, though, is
(06:42):
investment in infrastructure and of course some housing. Housing tends
to come along if you have the right infrastructure and
the government some of the public purse has to be
spent on getting that right.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
I've spoken recently to the Vice to answered Deborah Apprentice
about the challenges posed by research funding and the lack
of research funding. How would you be able to influence
that in order to kind of build up research funding.
It again a kind of really critical time if Cambridge
wants to wants to deliver on its world class reputation.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
It really is well. I think I've got these acts
at the table to help discussion on where research funding
could go. The governments are very important funder of research,
but so too as the private sector. But the government
provides a lot of seed funding and it's very important
to get that focused in areas where we have world
(07:42):
class capability. Biomedical activity in Cambridge, the AI activity in Cambridge,
the energy and energy transition activity in Cambridge. Arguably the
sum total of all people in these areas and more
are the best in the world and they need funding.
So they get a lot of funding. We need to
(08:04):
see if we can expand sources of funding not just
from the government but also from worldwide sources and particularly
from the private sector. So private sector will follow provided
that there's something they can see which is developed from
research into the commercial area.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
I know that, I mean, you hint at it, but
there is the funding for research issue. But then you've
also got to actually get onto the AIM market, and
that's had record low new issues and a seventeen percent
plunge in market value in the first quarter. Is there
anything they think that could be done to revive that
so that you know, these great ideas can actually go
(08:44):
all the way to market and make some money, make
some growth.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
So look, I've actually had both companies, have shared companies
go onto AIM and coming off a. AIM is full
of far too many small companies that need to be
in private hands for long. There's no doubt about that,
because there aren't enough analysts to follow stocks which are
very small. I think, you know, real IPOs nowadays need
(09:10):
probably five billion dollars of enterprise value in order to
succeed really well. So it's just that there are plenty
of choices for investors. So I think the private markets,
both venture of growth, equity and growth and private equity
buyout are the areas that people need to focus more
(09:32):
on to get finance for these smaller companies. I think
the public markets do have a role, but the public
markets are quite demanding in scale and track record, and
they're not for everybody. I don't think you know, any
CEO keeps saying my ambition is to float the company,
(09:53):
is I think not saying the right thing. Surely the
ambition is to build a great product that fits into
a market that continues to not to necessarily.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Okay, Love Brown, thank you so much for being with
us this morning. It's very good to speak to you.
We are speaking to John Brown. Of course, you did
spend a long time at BP. I think it would
be remiss not to ask you, given your hugely prominent
role there, how much of a loss it would be
to the UK if the deal with Shell goes ahead.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Sure well, let me say, first of all, I left
BP eighteen years ago, so it's not just yesterday, and
I don't supervise BP. It would be a loss, of course,
it would be a great loss BP. Certainly, you know
when I was running it, we were the I think
fifth or seventh largest entire company in the entire world,
(10:49):
and it had great skill at developing responsibly order gas
and actually providing huge employment for every body. It was
at one time, of course, the provider of one pound
out of every six pounds in every single pension fund
in the UK. So I hope it's not lost because
(11:10):
it's a great part of the British business environment.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
So your advice to Murray arckingclass John.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
I have no advice for CEOs. I really think that
former CEO should keep out of advising president CEOs. This
is not a good idea.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Okay, take that point. In that case, let me return
to the fundamental issue, which is that the leading universities
in the world in the United States, most prominently Harvard,
are currently under enormous pressure from the Trump administration to
do what the Trump administration sees as being ideal. Harvard
(11:50):
is engaged in a significant battle. You've talked about, you know,
the idea of being able to exchange ideas freely at Cambridge.
Were you to lead that university, I want the US
and the current administration has also deeply criticize Britain, that
freedom of speech in Britain is under threat. What concrete
(12:11):
actions would you take to try to ensure that there
is freedom academically, freedom of speech for students, for researchers
at Cambridge going forwards. This seems to me a really
foundational challenge.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Well indeed, it is. But first of all, it's not
as if it's a new idea. It is what Cambridge
stands for, and it simply needs to be reinforced. I
think it's very important to take a strong position that
everything must be done to make sure that people can
speak freely, and they do not in so doing shut
(12:49):
down freedom of speech for the people who disagree with them.
So that needs to be pleased quite carefully, and there
are rules to do that and they should be forced.
There is no doubt actually those rules existed for a
long time.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
So then Cambridge has done a good job so far
in your view, and is exemplary right now, and you
want to continue that it's not bad.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
There are, of course, are always things that get in
the way, you know, and there are ups and downs.
But I don't think that long term values are judged
by sometimes things that go wrong that then are corrected.
So I think Cambridge needs to reinforce, it needs to
teach people that needs to stand out and everything they do,
(13:35):
and I may say they need to do research with
a freedom of investigation, research and scholarship.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
And so a message of support for Harvard University and
it's battled with the US administration.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Well, it's up to Harvard how they do this. I
think Harvard had a great obviously very great standing and
how they now go forward is very much in their
control and the circumstances of the day. But you know,
these changes in fashion and they are almost fascional or
(14:10):
probably a partial reading of values. They go up and
they go down. But in the end, the long term
value of the university, and they're trying to make that
point legally, is that that's unchanged, that they have freedom
of speech. That actually it's done in a way where
(14:31):
it allows they're losing.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
They are losing millions and millions in funding in the US,
so financially it's having it's potentially going to have a
much bigger and longer term and fundamental impact on Harvard,
led by the Harvard President, Alan Garber.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
That may be true, depending on how it all gets
through the courts and what happens over a run of years,
that may well be true. That is very much I'm
afraid is the nature of what is happening in the
United States, and it's the United States's choice to have
(15:10):
this administration in place, and it comes with these activities.
I don't think it may well spread in the world.
I hope it doesn't. We should be vigorous and very
strong to prevent it affecting what goes on in Cambridge University.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Okay, John Brown, really good to talk to you. We
thank you so much for your time. John Brown is
of course running to become Chancellor of the University of
Cambridge and was previously CEO of BP. John, we thank
you for joining us on the program.
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