June 25, 2025 • 38 mins
Joseph Scott Morgan gives a "Live" presentation of what happened at 1122 King Road in Moscow, Idaho the night four students were murdered. Breaking down the forensic evidence that exists as well as items that have been destroyed, including the crime scene and all of this on stage in front of a live audience at CrimeCon UK 2025
Transcribe Highlights
00:01.36 Introduction
04:06.06 Blood seen on back of house
08:00.55 KA-BAR Knife
11:48.76 Event took between 6 and 12 minutes
15:19.56 Moscow, Idaho, small town
20:00.53 House is complex
25:11.72 Kohberger car cleaning
30:08.31 Kohberger watching Joe Scott
35:44.67 House torn down
38:17.26 Conclusion
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Quality times. But Joseph Scott Morgan coming to you live
from Crime Con twenty twenty five in London. I'm Joseph
Scott Morgan and this is body Bags. We're going to
dig into a case or cases. I hate to be
(00:23):
disrespectful by only saying putting that in the singular form.
We have four victims in this case, and that's the
most important thing, right and we try to emphasize that.
I think in the true crime world now in the past,
and I've heard this repeated over and over again that
(00:45):
particularly this time around, that we pay a lot of
attention to perpetrators. You hear about perpetrators a lot because
many times they are the stuff of nightmares because you,
I think humans, we want to try to understand what
creates a monster. And I've seen my share of monsters
(01:08):
over the course of my career in practice. However, what
I've also borne witness to or what they leave in
the wake, and I don't know of any case or
cases that are in view right now that are any
(01:30):
more brutal than this. And there has been an ongoing
discussion about when this case is actually going to come
to trial. These cases, they'll all be held in one accort.
You've got four charges of murder. This is a capital
case where Brian Coberger has been accused. He has not
(01:51):
been convicted, and that's important for us to remember. But
we have to remember what happened to these four young people,
Zana kernodle Ethan Chapin. We've got Matty Mogan and Kaylee Gonzalvez,
and they all have a story to tell by all
the remains of their bodies, and that's one of the
(02:14):
big things that we're kind of missing right now. We
don't know the extent of the injuries. But let me
ask you a quick question and please respond. This is important.
How many of you guys have seen this infamous image
that has floated around since twenty twenty two that there
(02:36):
appears to be drippage of blood rolling down the foundation
of the house, that show of hands as any Okay,
Daily Mail being the Daily Mail, of course we're the
first people to publish this. We could talk to our
friend Joe blood spatter expert, and she would concur with
(02:57):
what I'm about to say. As chilling as that image is,
I cannot say that that is in fact blood. It
looks like blood, But anybody that knows anything about forensics.
You know, we don't just go by site. We have
to test things to try to understand if in fact
(03:19):
that substance is blood. However, that gives you an indication
of the level horror as to what went on King Road,
because if that is in fact blood, you've got four
victims that all died of sharp force injuries, and the
(03:40):
environment would have to have been a wash in blood
because you literally have blood, if that is what that is,
seeping beneath that seam and coming to rest on the
foundation being pulled down slowly by gravity. So if you
can take that one view, take that one view and
(04:04):
try to transport yourself just for a moment, as to
what the interior of that house would look like, it's
mind blowing. You've got a lot of commingling of evidence.
We've got Kayley and her friend Maddie that are in
(04:24):
the same bedroom on the third floor of this home
that was being rented. Their blood would have been everywhere
more than likely. The description that we have caught pieces
of over this period of Thomas by many of these investigators,
and some of these are very seasoned investigators, including members
(04:48):
of the FBI response team. This is one of the
most brutal homicides they've ever borne witnessed to, and that
complicates matters relative to the friends evidence. It's there. You think,
the more blood that you have, there's a high probability
that you're going to be able to pinpoint who might
(05:09):
have done this, the nature of the injuries. But when
you walk into a scene, particularly where you have multiple
stab wounds and multiple victims, it's very dynamic and you
have overlay of blood, the deposition of blood, and then
the positionality of the bodies. What kind of movement are
you talking about? So in the upstairs bedroom, the third floor,
(05:34):
where Mattie is found along with Kaylee, her friend, and
they've been these young ladies have been friends since they
were wee little ones. They've known each other their entire lives.
One had just graduated and was moving on to Dallas
to start a career. Her friend was a senior and
was also about to graduate. They were about to get
(05:57):
on one of the rest of their lives and it
ended up there in that bedroom, and it was a
tiny bedroom. Interestingly enough, Kally Gonzalez, who was one of
the victims on the third floor, her father has seen
the crime scene photos, and he stated that you could
not open the door, that there's no way that Matty
(06:24):
Mugen or Kally Gonzalez could have opened the door to
get out because her friend's feet were blocking the door,
and just let me demonstrate the position she was in. So,
according to mister Gonzalez, who's been very vocal throughout this
(06:46):
case because he sees the thing moving at such a
slow pace, and he's used the words incompetent many times
as to how the scene is handled. The images that
he claims that he saw demonstrated his little girl in
this position against the wall, her legs extended like this,
(07:11):
soaked in blood, and it's such a tight space that
there is no way that she could have arisen from
this position and crossed over to eggs at the door
because the room was so very tight. Essentially, this room
had enough room to contain a mattress, and of course
(07:33):
Maddie was found on the mattress or adjacent to it,
and it's beneath her where the knife sheath was found.
I've got a great wife. Sometimes I questioned the gifts
(07:55):
that she buys me. I'd been covering the case or
sometimes so she goes onto Amazon and if there's any
authorities here, I don't have the knife with me. This
is merely the sheath. Don't put the bracelets on me.
She bought me the exact knife, and this is what's
(08:16):
referred to as a USMC k bar knife. Our troops
in America have carried this knife actually before World War Two.
This is a combat knife. As a matter of fact,
in the United States Marine Corps they have a field
manual for everything. There is actually a training field manual
about how to use this in combat to specifically for
(08:40):
this weapon. Our Marine Corps still carries these weapons right
out of the box. I'm rather hair sued. I could
have shaved every bit of hair off of my face
with this thing. And it is heavy. I mean it's
very very heavy. And this sheath will come into play
as we continue to talk about the case. But beneath
(09:04):
her body was the knife sheath, so you began to
think about whoever the perpetrator was. It was locked up
in this tiny little space adjacent to a mattress. These
two young women that were sleeping in this bed, something
that they had done together since they were we little ones.
(09:24):
One was back visiting celebrating her graduation wanted to show
off from you Ford Bronco that she had a sorry
range rover that she had purchased in town to have
a bit of fun. Were brutally assaulted in this room,
and the perpetrator apparently left behind the knife sheath. Then
(09:49):
we have to go downstairs to the second floor of
this residence, and the residence is quite interesting in and
of itself, but on the second floor we Xana Canodle,
who is one of the leases that in dwells this place,
and her boyfriend. They're found. His name is Ethan Chapin.
(10:10):
They're found in her bedroom. When Xenna is examined, it
turns out, according to the authorities, that she fought back ferociously.
If you'll extend your hand like this, okay, it's like this,
and look at your palm. Okay, you have a series
(10:35):
of ligaments in the palm of your hand. She had
grabbed hold of the blade and through her ligaments and
tendence was cut down to the bone where she had
grabbed this combat knife and it had been drug through
her hand in a recent release, and this is something
that we never knew. Her boyfriend, Ethan, is found on
(10:59):
the bed. She's on the floor. Eaton's on the bed,
and he's a tall fellow. He's one of one of triplets. Okay,
he's had he's got two other siblings. He's a freshman,
she's a junior. His legs are carved up. How bizarre, right,
(11:21):
Who has time to take a combat knife and carve
somebody's legs up? Who does this in this kind of
frenzied attack, Because the wind of time that we're talking
about relative to this attack is so small. We're talking
about an event that would have taken maybe some people
(11:42):
have said as many as twelve and is as lease
as less as as six minutes to go from multiple
floors in this odd structure. And we'll get into that
in just a sect. Get into the multiple floors and
navigate this area and pull off four homicides with a
(12:03):
single weapon, not a firearm, okay. And each one of
these victims has got multiple, according to authorities, multiple stab
wounds and slices over the surfaces of their bodies. Now,
when the police arrived the next day, this is actually
(12:26):
November thirteenth, I think the recordings at fourteenth. It's the thirteenth,
I think when this began to occur that morning it
was late in the morning. You have two of the
roommates that survived that were in this structure. They had
been out drinking but had returned home at about one am.
(12:49):
There's been a big question as to was anything heard
because I don't know about you guys. I talked about
this yesterday when we were speaking speaking about Ellen Greenberg.
If ainy of you guys were in that session. The
pain that someone sustains as a result of any kind
of sharp force injury, being cut, being stabbed. I use
(13:11):
the example of a paper cut, and how painful a
paper cut is. Pain centers begin to fire. Now you've
got four people there's sustaining multiple stab wounds and slices.
Is it possible that this could have been facilitated and
no one heard a peep? The other two roommates, one
is on the first floor, which is actually technically the basement.
(13:34):
The structure is really bizarre. The second floor where Zana
and her boyfriend Ethan were. There's another roommate down the hall.
Who's the person that winds up saying that she saw
the person? How many of you guys, what's the distinguishing
factor that she said? Dylan Morton said, bushy eyebrows, and
he's wearing I think what's referred to. Many believe it
(13:56):
was bala kava, which is covering like this. You see it.
We saw it during COVID people would wear these, they
become popular at that time, and you saw the bushy eyebrows.
She describes this individual as being athletic, not fat, but slim,
had the body of a swimmer, perhaps that kind of
(14:17):
wide shoulders, that sort of thing, and no one hears
anything as far as pain centers firing and people screaming
in agony. At one point in time, they thought Dylan
thought Dylan Mortenson, the surviving roommate on the second floor,
(14:37):
thought she heard somebody say it's going to be okay.
I'm going to help you. But that has not been
pegged down specifically as if the perpetrator that was up
there heard her weeping and was going to help her
at some point in time. So there's a lot of
(14:57):
confusion there has been from Jump Street relative to in
this case. I love coming to Great Britain. I love
coming to England, and one of the reasons is London
(15:19):
is great. It's fantastic, but I love being in your countryside.
I love coming to little villages so charming. I love it.
This is an isolated location, very isolated. No crime happens
here in this place, particularly something of this level of brutality.
It's near the Washington state border, if you're familiar with
(15:44):
Washington State, and as a matter of fact, directly across
the state line is Pullman, Washington is the home of
Washington State University. These individuals were attending school at the
University of Idaho, and essentially there's two different routes you
can take from one university to the other. One is
about ten miles, the other is about eight. Okay, so
(16:05):
you can traversus area. Kids go back and forth and
go to parties on both campuses, this sort of thing.
But it's not something that you would necessarily suspect in
this quiet little hamlet there. All that's there is this
university and it supports the city. As a matter of fact,
the police in America, our universities actually have their own
(16:28):
police forces, Okay, not in this place. The police force
served both the city as well as the university. So
you've got this kind of cooperative relationship that goes on
between the city and the university, and they deal with
things like you know, underage drinking, you know pot, you
know those sorts of things. They'll have fights that happen
(16:50):
on fraternity row, but nothing that really rises to this level.
I think that that's one of the reasons that it
threw a monkey wrench into the situation to begin with,
because when they stepped off to handle this case, it
was being handled by the local police department, and they
(17:14):
didn't secure the scene immediately, and we still to this
point don't know how many people entered and left the scene.
We have some images that indicate that there were people
that walked through the scene. First off, they're not kitted
out like we do in forensic science or forensic investigators,
(17:36):
where you're wearing like the Taibek suits we call them
the bunny suits, the white suits. You seen Joe wearing,
those hair nets or hair covering, shoe coverings, gloves, all
those sorts of things. You'll see people coming and going
out of this place. It was not locked down. State
police showed up and then they consulted the FBI because
they knew that this was so far beyond their ability
(17:56):
to handle. And it takes a lot of time to
get these wheels and and that time is important. We
do know this. The coroner for this little county, who
by trade is a nurse, and she's also an attorney.
It's an elected official. She gave a very interesting interview.
(18:19):
I guess it was probably two days after the events
that had occurred. And the reason I say that it's
interesting because the medical legal world is a world that
I come from. Corners generally don't make comments about things,
particularly as it applies to homicides. We're part of the team.
We're inside what I refer to as the investigative bubble.
(18:42):
But she comes out and Flatley says, it appears as
though they were all asleep. And she says this in
an interview, and this is blasted out all over the
US because all eyes are on this thing by this time. Well,
as I have spoken of already, it's obvious that they
were not all asleep, because when I don't know what
(19:05):
you guys think when you hear they were all asleep,
I'm thinking, you know, Goldilocks, she's lying in bed and
she's got the covers. You know she's sleeping. That's not
what happened. This is a very dynamic situation. Many of us,
when I would talk to colleagues and forensics. Before we
saw kind of the Zillow images that they had posted
(19:28):
of this place, we were thinking that we were dealing
with a sex offender that may have been what's commonly
referred to as a panty sniffer that kind of start
off at that level. They'll break in, get access to clothing,
take trophies and that sort of thing, and that there
was possibly a closeted area where they could kind of,
you know, creep inside and sit there. None of the
(19:48):
closets have doors on them misplace, so we knew right
away that someone probably had to come in. But the
house itself is so incredibly complex in the way it's structured,
because the thing's been added onto multiple times over the years.
There's no way that all four of these people were
(20:11):
sleep when this happened. There's even we know that there
was a door dash order that came in from Xana
that was right approximating four am. She had received this order,
and it was shortly after that that hell broke loose
in that house. Many people were thinking maybe it was
the DoorDash guy. Earlier in the evening, Mattie and Kaylee
(20:33):
had been bar hopping, which teenagers do, or young adults do,
particularly when you're in college. We've got images of them
on a food truck from CCTV. You can tell that
they're probably a bit inebriated. Their gait is kind of unsteady,
you know when you see them in the images. And
then a private party picked them up and took them
(20:56):
back to the residence, and the police excluded that individual.
We knew that it wasn't that person that had perpetrated
his crime. So we're to the sheath. Now the sheath
is comes in. I think there there are folks that
that think that we'll speak I'll speak his name now.
(21:17):
Brian Coberger had had essentially been caught as a result
of this Hyundai Alantra. I'm supposing you guys have Hyundai
products over here. Hyundai A Lantras are everywhere in America.
They're inexpensive, many people drive them. There's thousands and thousands
(21:39):
of these things riding around the road, and the most
common color is white, and he had a white one,
all right. I think many folks thought that, well, you know,
it's as a result of the car that he was
driving that they were able to peg this down. And
they knew that it was him Visa VI that. Interestingly enough,
(22:00):
the Hyundai from the police perspective is actually the validation
of the DNA evidence that they have allegedly found. So
back to the discovery of the sheath, it's a leather sheath.
When they tested this thing, they detected Visa visa snap
(22:25):
right here. And afterwards, you guys are welcome to come
up and take a look at the scene and hold
it and you can kind of actuate it if you
want to, right around the rim right here. And everybody
knows about button snaps. You have them in your home,
you might have them on your clothing. Pops open like this.
(22:46):
It's believed that he may, as a result of practicing
with this thing with an ungloved hand, may have raked
his thumb or maybe his index finger over the surface.
And this things got a lip right here. So as
you do this, what kind of DNA is left behind?
Touched DNA? That's right, because we slough what anybody know,
(23:08):
what do we sluff? Every day? Jurgens has made millions
and millions of dollars right skin lotion. We lose thousands
and thousands of skin cells every day, and you're not
aware of it. It just happens. We all have dry skin.
He's apparently dropped potentially some touch DNA in this area,
and when they swabbed this area, that's where they got
(23:29):
to hit from over the entire surface of this thing,
that's where they found it. I had one colleague that
had postulated that they envisioned him sitting in a seat
practicing with this thing. You know, how to handle it,
how to operate it, how to unsnap the thing, this
(23:49):
sort of thing, and he was very careful to handle it,
but he forgot that one little space and did not
clean it up. And it kind of fits with one
of my suppositions early on that it's kind of embarrassing,
I guess, but I'll go ahead and admit it. I
knew that whoever had done this, and if they had
(24:12):
left in a motor vehicle, they would have been covered
in blood. And early on when I was interviewed in
the case, my comment was that whoever did this would
be super saturated in blood, there would be a tremendous
amount of transfer evidence within the vehicle. That wasn't the case.
And just so you know how these vehicle searches go
(24:34):
when they get their hands on one of these vehicles,
every bloody thing's coming out. Seats come out, headliner comes out,
gearlever comes out, steering wheel comes out, the dash will
come out, they'll pull the carpet, they'll do everything. And
my suspicion is that vehicle went to probably the FBI
(24:55):
crime lab it's located in Pennsylvania, where they affected the
rest on coburger. They took this thing apart from stem
to stern. One of the fascinating comments the FBI made
about the car, and we don't really know the genesis
of this or how they have established this, was that
(25:19):
he had cleaned it over and over and over again.
And of course, when he was arrested at his parents'
house in the Poconos, he was found wearing what does
anyone know, gloves and what else. He merely had a
T shirt and some people had said shorts or his underwear,
(25:41):
and he's wearing gloves, and he's transferring rubbish from one
bag to another that he could seal up and take
off individually and deposit. So, if that is the case,
and he's been accused not convicted, he has an awareness
that Lacarte's principle, which, of course if you're not familiar
(26:03):
with Edmond Lecarte. He's the godfather of forensics as far
as I'm concerned. He made a statement many years ago,
does anyone know what it is? What every contact does,
what leaves a trace? So a perpetrator will leave something
of themselves behind that will take something with them. Okay,
that we cannot go everywhere you're seated right now, as
(26:26):
a matter of fact, wherever your bottom is planted. Okay,
you're in contact with other people's DNA right now, you
will take that away with you when you exit this room. Okay,
where your hands are right now, any objects you're touching,
there's a potential for that. And lecard knew that over
one hundred years ago. Coburger had gone to undergraduate at
(26:49):
the Sales University and allegedly had a fascination with crime
scenes and serial killers. Now, Katherine Ramslin, how many of
you guys are familiar with doctor Ramslan. Your shoulder almost
became disjointed when you said that. Yeah, I know Katherin Ramsley.
She's one of the leading experts in America on serial killers.
She actually helped bet and this is kind of chilling.
(27:10):
She helped BTK write his memoir, which is kind of
on a real creepy level to me. But that aside,
he studied under her and they have a crime scene
house at the sales, and at the sales they trained
their undergraduate students how to basically process crime scene. I
(27:32):
take exception. Many times in the new particularly the news media,
they conflate criminologists with forensic science, and they're completely different things.
They're not the same. If you have a degree in criminology,
God bless you, I'm happy for you, but you're studying
criminal behavior, it's not forensic science. But they get a
taste of it in her world. So he would have
(27:55):
had an awareness of what it would take in order
to try to defeat anything that we're going to do
it to scene to collect any kind of evidence there.
And when I think that when the police began to
kind of explore his background and understand this, particularly in
the light of the fact that they retrieved this DNA
(28:17):
and then they confirmed that with a trash pull that
they got from the family home, this linked back to
his father, and you know, it's forensic genetic genealogies, like
having the finger pointed at you by cousin you've never
met essentially, is what it comes down to, and that's
(28:38):
what happened in this case, that put them on the
scent of him, and then they were able to in
their minds, the police, that is, validate their supposition with
the existence of this white Hyundai a Lantra that had
been driving about town that they were catching flashes of
all about town through CCTV. But they could not clean
(29:01):
those images up enough to be able to fully appreciate
who was operating the vehicle. They couldn't get a tag
off of it. But yet this vehicle sat in the
parking lot of his rented apartment in Pullman, Washington, which
again is only seven to eight ten miles away, and
they had driven past it multiple times over there. So
(29:22):
the dominoes began to fall relative to this. And there
have been a variety of times over the course of
this odyssey that we've been on since twenty twenty two
with his case regarding leakage that's coming out in the press.
I had stated plainly the other day or yesterday that
(29:47):
you know, my image actually appeared and that he had
been watching some of my comments on air in the interim,
and it turned out to be about a six week
interim between the time that these were these homici sides
were committed and that they finally put the bracelets on
him in Pennsylvania, and you know, me personally sent a
(30:07):
chill up my spine. You know that I was kind
of in the mix. You know that any comment that
I would make on air about it that he was hearing,
you know. So again it was this weird kind of intersectionality,
you know, with that. And he had had enough time,
I think, to try to put as much distance between
himself and the crimes as he possibly could, but of
(30:29):
course he failed miserably. Now to the house. How many
of you guys have had a homicide committed in your hometown?
(30:53):
Let me ask another question. In your town wherever you're from,
that location, Let's say it's a dwelling. Has that dwelling
been torn down? I've actually worked in both New Orleans
and Atlanta homicides at the same location. In cases that
(31:17):
are not related. New occupants come in and a homicide
is committed by that group of people as well. Let
that sink in just for a second. When the single
most valuable pieces of information was this house, and the
house is gone, people don't talk a lot about forensic
(31:43):
how we use sound in forensics. It's very important when
you begin to think about how sound travels. There are
not enough three D models. There are not enough homemade
models that you can bring into court where you can
try to understand the acoustic dynamics. And a dwelling that
(32:04):
doesn't exist. This isn't like the holid deck on the
Star trek Okay on The Enterprise if you remember that show.
So if our idea is that no one hurt anything
on the adjacent floors when all of this is happening,
that just kind of goes out into the ether, right,
(32:25):
It's not something that can be proven now the structure
is completely gone. We had the Parkland shooting in Florida
many years ago in America, if you're familiar with this,
where this maniac goes into this high school on Valentine's
Day and begins shooting students, right. They locked that thing
down for years with chain link fencing all the way
around it, security monitors. It was on Valentine's Day. There
(32:48):
were still little teddy bears with hearts on them and
crushed roses and all these sorts of things in bloodstains everywhere,
and they took the jury there and the press went
in with them, and it triggered something within the jury
where they were suddenly put in that place and they
could understand the dynamics of that environment. This is absent
in this case, arguably one of the most high profile
(33:10):
cases in the US in the last decade. I'd say
one of the biggest pieces of physical evidence has gone. Now.
There have been questions about how things were removed from
the scene. There's one kind of famous image of an
entire mattress being taken out of the house. It was
(33:31):
not covered. It was placed into the back of a
pickup truck to be hauled away. Standard you would wrap
it in like butcher paper, placed it in the back
of a covered van and take it away. When the
Gonzolveuses received their daughter, Kaylee's belongings, they actually sent back
her trash can that was in her room. It still
(33:56):
had an orange juice apple juice in it that had
not been examined. There was still trash in there that
they had not pulled out of the thing. Trash pulls
inside of crime scenes, particularly where a double homicide has
been committed in that room, is something. I'm not giving
it back to the family, I'm sorry, And even early
(34:17):
on they had stated that they were going to allow
personal items to be taken out of the house and
given back to the family before Coburger was arrested. Slightly
before they sent in a crime scene cleanup team, they
had a plastic tunnel that had been constructed so that
(34:38):
you could make entry into the place that Coburger was arrested.
He immediately got a defense counsel and they said, whoa, whoa, whoa.
And as by his right, he needs to be able
to examine. Seeing his team needs to be able, you
might think that, well, no, he needs to get what's
coming to him. Yeah, okay, if he's guilty, he does,
but you're going to have a real problem if he
(34:59):
doesn't have access. And all along from the perspective of
forensic evidence, the house has been kind of the concentric
location of some of the biggest pitfalls with this case.
The fact that items were removed from the house and
turned back over to the family, the idea of them
(35:20):
sending a crime scene clean up, just the thought of
them doing that and not holding back, and then of
course the university purchasing the pride the actual property, and
they had this thing raised, and they're going to turn
it into a memorial. I'm all for memorials, okay, But
there's a time and a place for everything. I think
(35:41):
everybody would agree. I don't care how sad it makes
you feel. I don't care if it makes you feel
icky when you walk by it. You know who feels
icky right now? You know feels sad the parents of
these victims. And they fought tooth and nail to try
to have this thing maintained, and both of the fence
and the prosecution agreed to have it ripped down. Never
(36:04):
in my experience have I ever seen a homicide scene
pulled down like this, particularly prior to a trial. This
is going to come into play in this case. One
last thing, there's been a big data release that took
place from the Dateline program. In that data dump, we
begin to see images that someone within the investigative team
(36:31):
has released to the media and to Dateline and their producers.
We've now got imagery of Brian Coburger in various poses
with his hoodie over his head looking you remember there
was another one that came out a few weeks prior,
where it looked like he had just gotten out of
the shower and he's kind of smiling like that. Hairs
kind of combed over shower curtains immediately behind him or
(36:55):
the showers immediately behind him. There's been digital data that
has been released now of from CCTV where you can
see the car going by. We never saw that before,
and for some reason, someone decided to release all this information.
Howard Bloom has written a book that I'm not here
(37:15):
to sell his book in any way, but he had
access early on. He showed up in Idaho and began
talking to the cops. And guess who's releasing a book
in July. James Patterson. And everybody's familiar with James Patterson.
He's written about this now. So this thing, the dynamics
(37:35):
of this case and the way this is going to
play out, no one knows, but I do know this.
This is a death penalty case. All of this data
dump that has taken place might not affect the trial immediately,
but if he's found guilty, this is going up on
appeal automatically in America. And guess where this all will
(37:56):
come into play. It's going to come into play in
the appellate level. We'll see how it plays out live
from Crime Con twenty twenty five in London. I'm Joseph
Scott Morgan and this is body Bags
Quality times. But Joseph Scott Morgan coming to you live
from Crime Con twenty twenty five in London. I'm Joseph
Scott Morgan and this is body Bags. We're going to
dig into a case or cases. I hate to be
(00:23):
disrespectful by only saying putting that in the singular form.
We have four victims in this case, and that's the
most important thing, right and we try to emphasize that.
I think in the true crime world now in the past,
and I've heard this repeated over and over again that
(00:45):
particularly this time around, that we pay a lot of
attention to perpetrators. You hear about perpetrators a lot because
many times they are the stuff of nightmares because you,
I think humans, we want to try to understand what
creates a monster. And I've seen my share of monsters
(01:08):
over the course of my career in practice. However, what
I've also borne witness to or what they leave in
the wake, and I don't know of any case or
cases that are in view right now that are any
(01:30):
more brutal than this. And there has been an ongoing
discussion about when this case is actually going to come
to trial. These cases, they'll all be held in one accort.
You've got four charges of murder. This is a capital
case where Brian Coberger has been accused. He has not
(01:51):
been convicted, and that's important for us to remember. But
we have to remember what happened to these four young people,
Zana kernodle Ethan Chapin. We've got Matty Mogan and Kaylee Gonzalvez,
and they all have a story to tell by all
the remains of their bodies, and that's one of the
(02:14):
big things that we're kind of missing right now. We
don't know the extent of the injuries. But let me
ask you a quick question and please respond. This is important.
How many of you guys have seen this infamous image
that has floated around since twenty twenty two that there
(02:36):
appears to be drippage of blood rolling down the foundation
of the house, that show of hands as any Okay,
Daily Mail being the Daily Mail, of course we're the
first people to publish this. We could talk to our
friend Joe blood spatter expert, and she would concur with
(02:57):
what I'm about to say. As chilling as that image is,
I cannot say that that is in fact blood. It
looks like blood, But anybody that knows anything about forensics.
You know, we don't just go by site. We have
to test things to try to understand if in fact
(03:19):
that substance is blood. However, that gives you an indication
of the level horror as to what went on King Road,
because if that is in fact blood, you've got four
victims that all died of sharp force injuries, and the
(03:40):
environment would have to have been a wash in blood
because you literally have blood, if that is what that is,
seeping beneath that seam and coming to rest on the
foundation being pulled down slowly by gravity. So if you
can take that one view, take that one view and
(04:04):
try to transport yourself just for a moment, as to
what the interior of that house would look like, it's
mind blowing. You've got a lot of commingling of evidence.
We've got Kayley and her friend Maddie that are in
(04:24):
the same bedroom on the third floor of this home
that was being rented. Their blood would have been everywhere
more than likely. The description that we have caught pieces
of over this period of Thomas by many of these investigators,
and some of these are very seasoned investigators, including members
(04:48):
of the FBI response team. This is one of the
most brutal homicides they've ever borne witnessed to, and that
complicates matters relative to the friends evidence. It's there. You think,
the more blood that you have, there's a high probability
that you're going to be able to pinpoint who might
(05:09):
have done this, the nature of the injuries. But when
you walk into a scene, particularly where you have multiple
stab wounds and multiple victims, it's very dynamic and you
have overlay of blood, the deposition of blood, and then
the positionality of the bodies. What kind of movement are
you talking about? So in the upstairs bedroom, the third floor,
(05:34):
where Mattie is found along with Kaylee, her friend, and
they've been these young ladies have been friends since they
were wee little ones. They've known each other their entire lives.
One had just graduated and was moving on to Dallas
to start a career. Her friend was a senior and
was also about to graduate. They were about to get
(05:57):
on one of the rest of their lives and it
ended up there in that bedroom, and it was a
tiny bedroom. Interestingly enough, Kally Gonzalez, who was one of
the victims on the third floor, her father has seen
the crime scene photos, and he stated that you could
not open the door, that there's no way that Matty
(06:24):
Mugen or Kally Gonzalez could have opened the door to
get out because her friend's feet were blocking the door,
and just let me demonstrate the position she was in. So,
according to mister Gonzalez, who's been very vocal throughout this
(06:46):
case because he sees the thing moving at such a
slow pace, and he's used the words incompetent many times
as to how the scene is handled. The images that
he claims that he saw demonstrated his little girl in
this position against the wall, her legs extended like this,
(07:11):
soaked in blood, and it's such a tight space that
there is no way that she could have arisen from
this position and crossed over to eggs at the door
because the room was so very tight. Essentially, this room
had enough room to contain a mattress, and of course
(07:33):
Maddie was found on the mattress or adjacent to it,
and it's beneath her where the knife sheath was found.
I've got a great wife. Sometimes I questioned the gifts
(07:55):
that she buys me. I'd been covering the case or
sometimes so she goes onto Amazon and if there's any
authorities here, I don't have the knife with me. This
is merely the sheath. Don't put the bracelets on me.
She bought me the exact knife, and this is what's
(08:16):
referred to as a USMC k bar knife. Our troops
in America have carried this knife actually before World War Two.
This is a combat knife. As a matter of fact,
in the United States Marine Corps they have a field
manual for everything. There is actually a training field manual
about how to use this in combat to specifically for
(08:40):
this weapon. Our Marine Corps still carries these weapons right
out of the box. I'm rather hair sued. I could
have shaved every bit of hair off of my face
with this thing. And it is heavy. I mean it's
very very heavy. And this sheath will come into play
as we continue to talk about the case. But beneath
(09:04):
her body was the knife sheath, so you began to
think about whoever the perpetrator was. It was locked up
in this tiny little space adjacent to a mattress. These
two young women that were sleeping in this bed, something
that they had done together since they were we little ones.
(09:24):
One was back visiting celebrating her graduation wanted to show
off from you Ford Bronco that she had a sorry
range rover that she had purchased in town to have
a bit of fun. Were brutally assaulted in this room,
and the perpetrator apparently left behind the knife sheath. Then
(09:49):
we have to go downstairs to the second floor of
this residence, and the residence is quite interesting in and
of itself, but on the second floor we Xana Canodle,
who is one of the leases that in dwells this place,
and her boyfriend. They're found. His name is Ethan Chapin.
(10:10):
They're found in her bedroom. When Xenna is examined, it
turns out, according to the authorities, that she fought back ferociously.
If you'll extend your hand like this, okay, it's like this,
and look at your palm. Okay, you have a series
(10:35):
of ligaments in the palm of your hand. She had
grabbed hold of the blade and through her ligaments and
tendence was cut down to the bone where she had
grabbed this combat knife and it had been drug through
her hand in a recent release, and this is something
that we never knew. Her boyfriend, Ethan, is found on
(10:59):
the bed. She's on the floor. Eaton's on the bed,
and he's a tall fellow. He's one of one of triplets. Okay,
he's had he's got two other siblings. He's a freshman,
she's a junior. His legs are carved up. How bizarre, right,
(11:21):
Who has time to take a combat knife and carve
somebody's legs up? Who does this in this kind of
frenzied attack, Because the wind of time that we're talking
about relative to this attack is so small. We're talking
about an event that would have taken maybe some people
(11:42):
have said as many as twelve and is as lease
as less as as six minutes to go from multiple
floors in this odd structure. And we'll get into that
in just a sect. Get into the multiple floors and
navigate this area and pull off four homicides with a
(12:03):
single weapon, not a firearm, okay. And each one of
these victims has got multiple, according to authorities, multiple stab
wounds and slices over the surfaces of their bodies. Now,
when the police arrived the next day, this is actually
(12:26):
November thirteenth, I think the recordings at fourteenth. It's the thirteenth,
I think when this began to occur that morning it
was late in the morning. You have two of the
roommates that survived that were in this structure. They had
been out drinking but had returned home at about one am.
(12:49):
There's been a big question as to was anything heard
because I don't know about you guys. I talked about
this yesterday when we were speaking speaking about Ellen Greenberg.
If ainy of you guys were in that session. The
pain that someone sustains as a result of any kind
of sharp force injury, being cut, being stabbed. I use
(13:11):
the example of a paper cut, and how painful a
paper cut is. Pain centers begin to fire. Now you've
got four people there's sustaining multiple stab wounds and slices.
Is it possible that this could have been facilitated and
no one heard a peep? The other two roommates, one
is on the first floor, which is actually technically the basement.
(13:34):
The structure is really bizarre. The second floor where Zana
and her boyfriend Ethan were. There's another roommate down the hall.
Who's the person that winds up saying that she saw
the person? How many of you guys, what's the distinguishing
factor that she said? Dylan Morton said, bushy eyebrows, and
he's wearing I think what's referred to. Many believe it
(13:56):
was bala kava, which is covering like this. You see it.
We saw it during COVID people would wear these, they
become popular at that time, and you saw the bushy eyebrows.
She describes this individual as being athletic, not fat, but slim,
had the body of a swimmer, perhaps that kind of
(14:17):
wide shoulders, that sort of thing, and no one hears
anything as far as pain centers firing and people screaming
in agony. At one point in time, they thought Dylan
thought Dylan Mortenson, the surviving roommate on the second floor,
(14:37):
thought she heard somebody say it's going to be okay.
I'm going to help you. But that has not been
pegged down specifically as if the perpetrator that was up
there heard her weeping and was going to help her
at some point in time. So there's a lot of
(14:57):
confusion there has been from Jump Street relative to in
this case. I love coming to Great Britain. I love
coming to England, and one of the reasons is London
(15:19):
is great. It's fantastic, but I love being in your countryside.
I love coming to little villages so charming. I love it.
This is an isolated location, very isolated. No crime happens
here in this place, particularly something of this level of brutality.
It's near the Washington state border, if you're familiar with
(15:44):
Washington State, and as a matter of fact, directly across
the state line is Pullman, Washington is the home of
Washington State University. These individuals were attending school at the
University of Idaho, and essentially there's two different routes you
can take from one university to the other. One is
about ten miles, the other is about eight. Okay, so
(16:05):
you can traversus area. Kids go back and forth and
go to parties on both campuses, this sort of thing.
But it's not something that you would necessarily suspect in
this quiet little hamlet there. All that's there is this
university and it supports the city. As a matter of fact,
the police in America, our universities actually have their own
(16:28):
police forces, Okay, not in this place. The police force
served both the city as well as the university. So
you've got this kind of cooperative relationship that goes on
between the city and the university, and they deal with
things like you know, underage drinking, you know pot, you
know those sorts of things. They'll have fights that happen
(16:50):
on fraternity row, but nothing that really rises to this level.
I think that that's one of the reasons that it
threw a monkey wrench into the situation to begin with,
because when they stepped off to handle this case, it
was being handled by the local police department, and they
(17:14):
didn't secure the scene immediately, and we still to this
point don't know how many people entered and left the scene.
We have some images that indicate that there were people
that walked through the scene. First off, they're not kitted
out like we do in forensic science or forensic investigators,
(17:36):
where you're wearing like the Taibek suits we call them
the bunny suits, the white suits. You seen Joe wearing,
those hair nets or hair covering, shoe coverings, gloves, all
those sorts of things. You'll see people coming and going
out of this place. It was not locked down. State
police showed up and then they consulted the FBI because
they knew that this was so far beyond their ability
(17:56):
to handle. And it takes a lot of time to
get these wheels and and that time is important. We
do know this. The coroner for this little county, who
by trade is a nurse, and she's also an attorney.
It's an elected official. She gave a very interesting interview.
(18:19):
I guess it was probably two days after the events
that had occurred. And the reason I say that it's
interesting because the medical legal world is a world that
I come from. Corners generally don't make comments about things,
particularly as it applies to homicides. We're part of the team.
We're inside what I refer to as the investigative bubble.
(18:42):
But she comes out and Flatley says, it appears as
though they were all asleep. And she says this in
an interview, and this is blasted out all over the
US because all eyes are on this thing by this time. Well,
as I have spoken of already, it's obvious that they
were not all asleep, because when I don't know what
(19:05):
you guys think when you hear they were all asleep,
I'm thinking, you know, Goldilocks, she's lying in bed and
she's got the covers. You know she's sleeping. That's not
what happened. This is a very dynamic situation. Many of us,
when I would talk to colleagues and forensics. Before we
saw kind of the Zillow images that they had posted
(19:28):
of this place, we were thinking that we were dealing
with a sex offender that may have been what's commonly
referred to as a panty sniffer that kind of start
off at that level. They'll break in, get access to clothing,
take trophies and that sort of thing, and that there
was possibly a closeted area where they could kind of,
you know, creep inside and sit there. None of the
(19:48):
closets have doors on them misplace, so we knew right
away that someone probably had to come in. But the
house itself is so incredibly complex in the way it's structured,
because the thing's been added onto multiple times over the years.
There's no way that all four of these people were
(20:11):
sleep when this happened. There's even we know that there
was a door dash order that came in from Xana
that was right approximating four am. She had received this order,
and it was shortly after that that hell broke loose
in that house. Many people were thinking maybe it was
the DoorDash guy. Earlier in the evening, Mattie and Kaylee
(20:33):
had been bar hopping, which teenagers do, or young adults do,
particularly when you're in college. We've got images of them
on a food truck from CCTV. You can tell that
they're probably a bit inebriated. Their gait is kind of unsteady,
you know when you see them in the images. And
then a private party picked them up and took them
(20:56):
back to the residence, and the police excluded that individual.
We knew that it wasn't that person that had perpetrated
his crime. So we're to the sheath. Now the sheath
is comes in. I think there there are folks that
that think that we'll speak I'll speak his name now.
(21:17):
Brian Coberger had had essentially been caught as a result
of this Hyundai Alantra. I'm supposing you guys have Hyundai
products over here. Hyundai A Lantras are everywhere in America.
They're inexpensive, many people drive them. There's thousands and thousands
(21:39):
of these things riding around the road, and the most
common color is white, and he had a white one,
all right. I think many folks thought that, well, you know,
it's as a result of the car that he was
driving that they were able to peg this down. And
they knew that it was him Visa VI that. Interestingly enough,
(22:00):
the Hyundai from the police perspective is actually the validation
of the DNA evidence that they have allegedly found. So
back to the discovery of the sheath, it's a leather sheath.
When they tested this thing, they detected Visa visa snap
(22:25):
right here. And afterwards, you guys are welcome to come
up and take a look at the scene and hold
it and you can kind of actuate it if you
want to, right around the rim right here. And everybody
knows about button snaps. You have them in your home,
you might have them on your clothing. Pops open like this.
(22:46):
It's believed that he may, as a result of practicing
with this thing with an ungloved hand, may have raked
his thumb or maybe his index finger over the surface.
And this things got a lip right here. So as
you do this, what kind of DNA is left behind?
Touched DNA? That's right, because we slough what anybody know,
(23:08):
what do we sluff? Every day? Jurgens has made millions
and millions of dollars right skin lotion. We lose thousands
and thousands of skin cells every day, and you're not
aware of it. It just happens. We all have dry skin.
He's apparently dropped potentially some touch DNA in this area,
and when they swabbed this area, that's where they got
(23:29):
to hit from over the entire surface of this thing,
that's where they found it. I had one colleague that
had postulated that they envisioned him sitting in a seat
practicing with this thing. You know, how to handle it,
how to operate it, how to unsnap the thing, this
(23:49):
sort of thing, and he was very careful to handle it,
but he forgot that one little space and did not
clean it up. And it kind of fits with one
of my suppositions early on that it's kind of embarrassing,
I guess, but I'll go ahead and admit it. I
knew that whoever had done this, and if they had
(24:12):
left in a motor vehicle, they would have been covered
in blood. And early on when I was interviewed in
the case, my comment was that whoever did this would
be super saturated in blood, there would be a tremendous
amount of transfer evidence within the vehicle. That wasn't the case.
And just so you know how these vehicle searches go
(24:34):
when they get their hands on one of these vehicles,
every bloody thing's coming out. Seats come out, headliner comes out,
gearlever comes out, steering wheel comes out, the dash will
come out, they'll pull the carpet, they'll do everything. And
my suspicion is that vehicle went to probably the FBI
(24:55):
crime lab it's located in Pennsylvania, where they affected the
rest on coburger. They took this thing apart from stem
to stern. One of the fascinating comments the FBI made
about the car, and we don't really know the genesis
of this or how they have established this, was that
(25:19):
he had cleaned it over and over and over again.
And of course, when he was arrested at his parents'
house in the Poconos, he was found wearing what does
anyone know, gloves and what else. He merely had a
T shirt and some people had said shorts or his underwear,
(25:41):
and he's wearing gloves, and he's transferring rubbish from one
bag to another that he could seal up and take
off individually and deposit. So, if that is the case,
and he's been accused not convicted, he has an awareness
that Lacarte's principle, which, of course if you're not familiar
(26:03):
with Edmond Lecarte. He's the godfather of forensics as far
as I'm concerned. He made a statement many years ago,
does anyone know what it is? What every contact does,
what leaves a trace? So a perpetrator will leave something
of themselves behind that will take something with them. Okay,
that we cannot go everywhere you're seated right now, as
(26:26):
a matter of fact, wherever your bottom is planted. Okay,
you're in contact with other people's DNA right now, you
will take that away with you when you exit this room. Okay,
where your hands are right now, any objects you're touching,
there's a potential for that. And lecard knew that over
one hundred years ago. Coburger had gone to undergraduate at
(26:49):
the Sales University and allegedly had a fascination with crime
scenes and serial killers. Now, Katherine Ramslin, how many of
you guys are familiar with doctor Ramslan. Your shoulder almost
became disjointed when you said that. Yeah, I know Katherin Ramsley.
She's one of the leading experts in America on serial killers.
She actually helped bet and this is kind of chilling.
(27:10):
She helped BTK write his memoir, which is kind of
on a real creepy level to me. But that aside,
he studied under her and they have a crime scene
house at the sales, and at the sales they trained
their undergraduate students how to basically process crime scene. I
(27:32):
take exception. Many times in the new particularly the news media,
they conflate criminologists with forensic science, and they're completely different things.
They're not the same. If you have a degree in criminology,
God bless you, I'm happy for you, but you're studying
criminal behavior, it's not forensic science. But they get a
taste of it in her world. So he would have
(27:55):
had an awareness of what it would take in order
to try to defeat anything that we're going to do
it to scene to collect any kind of evidence there.
And when I think that when the police began to
kind of explore his background and understand this, particularly in
the light of the fact that they retrieved this DNA
(28:17):
and then they confirmed that with a trash pull that
they got from the family home, this linked back to
his father, and you know, it's forensic genetic genealogies, like
having the finger pointed at you by cousin you've never
met essentially, is what it comes down to, and that's
(28:38):
what happened in this case, that put them on the
scent of him, and then they were able to in
their minds, the police, that is, validate their supposition with
the existence of this white Hyundai a Lantra that had
been driving about town that they were catching flashes of
all about town through CCTV. But they could not clean
(29:01):
those images up enough to be able to fully appreciate
who was operating the vehicle. They couldn't get a tag
off of it. But yet this vehicle sat in the
parking lot of his rented apartment in Pullman, Washington, which
again is only seven to eight ten miles away, and
they had driven past it multiple times over there. So
(29:22):
the dominoes began to fall relative to this. And there
have been a variety of times over the course of
this odyssey that we've been on since twenty twenty two
with his case regarding leakage that's coming out in the press.
I had stated plainly the other day or yesterday that
(29:47):
you know, my image actually appeared and that he had
been watching some of my comments on air in the interim,
and it turned out to be about a six week
interim between the time that these were these homici sides
were committed and that they finally put the bracelets on
him in Pennsylvania, and you know, me personally sent a
(30:07):
chill up my spine. You know that I was kind
of in the mix. You know that any comment that
I would make on air about it that he was hearing,
you know. So again it was this weird kind of intersectionality,
you know, with that. And he had had enough time,
I think, to try to put as much distance between
himself and the crimes as he possibly could, but of
(30:29):
course he failed miserably. Now to the house. How many
of you guys have had a homicide committed in your hometown?
(30:53):
Let me ask another question. In your town wherever you're from,
that location, Let's say it's a dwelling. Has that dwelling
been torn down? I've actually worked in both New Orleans
and Atlanta homicides at the same location. In cases that
(31:17):
are not related. New occupants come in and a homicide
is committed by that group of people as well. Let
that sink in just for a second. When the single
most valuable pieces of information was this house, and the
house is gone, people don't talk a lot about forensic
(31:43):
how we use sound in forensics. It's very important when
you begin to think about how sound travels. There are
not enough three D models. There are not enough homemade
models that you can bring into court where you can
try to understand the acoustic dynamics. And a dwelling that
(32:04):
doesn't exist. This isn't like the holid deck on the
Star trek Okay on The Enterprise if you remember that show.
So if our idea is that no one hurt anything
on the adjacent floors when all of this is happening,
that just kind of goes out into the ether, right,
(32:25):
It's not something that can be proven now the structure
is completely gone. We had the Parkland shooting in Florida
many years ago in America, if you're familiar with this,
where this maniac goes into this high school on Valentine's
Day and begins shooting students, right. They locked that thing
down for years with chain link fencing all the way
around it, security monitors. It was on Valentine's Day. There
(32:48):
were still little teddy bears with hearts on them and
crushed roses and all these sorts of things in bloodstains everywhere,
and they took the jury there and the press went
in with them, and it triggered something within the jury
where they were suddenly put in that place and they
could understand the dynamics of that environment. This is absent
in this case, arguably one of the most high profile
(33:10):
cases in the US in the last decade. I'd say
one of the biggest pieces of physical evidence has gone. Now.
There have been questions about how things were removed from
the scene. There's one kind of famous image of an
entire mattress being taken out of the house. It was
(33:31):
not covered. It was placed into the back of a
pickup truck to be hauled away. Standard you would wrap
it in like butcher paper, placed it in the back
of a covered van and take it away. When the
Gonzolveuses received their daughter, Kaylee's belongings, they actually sent back
her trash can that was in her room. It still
(33:56):
had an orange juice apple juice in it that had
not been examined. There was still trash in there that
they had not pulled out of the thing. Trash pulls
inside of crime scenes, particularly where a double homicide has
been committed in that room, is something. I'm not giving
it back to the family, I'm sorry, And even early
(34:17):
on they had stated that they were going to allow
personal items to be taken out of the house and
given back to the family before Coburger was arrested. Slightly
before they sent in a crime scene cleanup team, they
had a plastic tunnel that had been constructed so that
(34:38):
you could make entry into the place that Coburger was arrested.
He immediately got a defense counsel and they said, whoa, whoa, whoa.
And as by his right, he needs to be able
to examine. Seeing his team needs to be able, you
might think that, well, no, he needs to get what's
coming to him. Yeah, okay, if he's guilty, he does,
but you're going to have a real problem if he
(34:59):
doesn't have access. And all along from the perspective of
forensic evidence, the house has been kind of the concentric
location of some of the biggest pitfalls with this case.
The fact that items were removed from the house and
turned back over to the family, the idea of them
(35:20):
sending a crime scene clean up, just the thought of
them doing that and not holding back, and then of
course the university purchasing the pride the actual property, and
they had this thing raised, and they're going to turn
it into a memorial. I'm all for memorials, okay, But
there's a time and a place for everything. I think
(35:41):
everybody would agree. I don't care how sad it makes
you feel. I don't care if it makes you feel
icky when you walk by it. You know who feels
icky right now? You know feels sad the parents of
these victims. And they fought tooth and nail to try
to have this thing maintained, and both of the fence
and the prosecution agreed to have it ripped down. Never
(36:04):
in my experience have I ever seen a homicide scene
pulled down like this, particularly prior to a trial. This
is going to come into play in this case. One
last thing, there's been a big data release that took
place from the Dateline program. In that data dump, we
begin to see images that someone within the investigative team
(36:31):
has released to the media and to Dateline and their producers.
We've now got imagery of Brian Coburger in various poses
with his hoodie over his head looking you remember there
was another one that came out a few weeks prior,
where it looked like he had just gotten out of
the shower and he's kind of smiling like that. Hairs
kind of combed over shower curtains immediately behind him or
(36:55):
the showers immediately behind him. There's been digital data that
has been released now of from CCTV where you can
see the car going by. We never saw that before,
and for some reason, someone decided to release all this information.
Howard Bloom has written a book that I'm not here
(37:15):
to sell his book in any way, but he had
access early on. He showed up in Idaho and began
talking to the cops. And guess who's releasing a book
in July. James Patterson. And everybody's familiar with James Patterson.
He's written about this now. So this thing, the dynamics
(37:35):
of this case and the way this is going to
play out, no one knows, but I do know this.
This is a death penalty case. All of this data
dump that has taken place might not affect the trial immediately,
but if he's found guilty, this is going up on
appeal automatically in America. And guess where this all will
(37:56):
come into play. It's going to come into play in
the appellate level. We'll see how it plays out live
from Crime Con twenty twenty five in London. I'm Joseph
Scott Morgan and this is body Bags
Host
Joseph Scott Morgan
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