July 24, 2025 • 48 mins
The victim impact statements in the Bryan Kohberger sentencing were powerful.
Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack have covered the case since it began in November 2022 and discuss the evidence used to convince Bryan Kohberger to take a plea deal.
JoScott also explains some of the injuries sustained by Kaylee Gonçalves and how they would have happened based on what we now know about the murders and how they took place.
Transcribe Highlights
00:00.22 Introduction, memories
04:25.74 Idaho murders impact on society
10:03.64 Impact statements by family members
15:12.12 Still wanting to know the facts of the case
20:32.28 Did BK target one specific person?
25:27.39 Science solved the case
30:13.55 BK Comment on arrest "anyone else arrested?"
35:11.23 Timeline of activity
40:34.32 Defense theory of 4 other people
45:10.42 Parents, Grandparents, siblings, impacted
48:23.61 Conclusion
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Quality dars. But Joseph's gotten more. Let's see. Let me
reflect back just for a moment. I remember, obviously, when
my children were born. I remember graduation from kindergarten, first
(00:24):
trophy ceremony in Little League, dance trophies, gymnastics trophies. I
remember them going off to camp. I remember I'm starting
high school, graduating from high school. I remember graduation from college.
(00:48):
But you know what I can't share with other people,
particularly some people that have been on the radar for
some time, is I don't have a point of reference
for what it would be like to walk into a
courtroom and stand face to face with the individual that
(01:13):
had wiped out my family. And I don't mean in
a physical sense necessarily, but had completely wrecked my family
by nothing I had done except send my kid to college.
That's what happened today. As I'm speaking, I've just finished
(01:37):
watching the impact statements and the family members of the
four victims from Idaho, and I got to tell you
it left me feeling.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Hollow.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body bags. Okay,
here's the deal, Dave. I'm going to do my best
brother to not say Brian Coberger's name again in another
episode of Bodybags. I have had it, tired of it,
(02:20):
but not as tired as family members are. Can you
imagine living in that world and inhabiting that world and
knowing the things that they know that we don't know,
that have been revealed to them by the district Attorney
or by the police detectives. And they've been having to
bear this burden all these years. Since November of twenty
(02:45):
twenty two.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
I believe it's been that long.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I know, I know, That's what I was thinking today.
I was sitting there and I started off early this
morning on Court TV, hopped on with Long Crime, and
just finished up with Nancy a few minutes ago, and
you know that's the one. It's like you and I
are sympatical. Man. I was reflecting during each one of
(03:10):
those moments about how long we've been talking about this,
And you know, the thing about it is as callous
and I don't mean it to sound callous, but we're
part of the media. There are going to be other
cases that at the moment time, when we get them,
we will say, and I know, because I'm guilty of it,
(03:32):
we'll say, this is the most horrific thing that we've
heard of at that point in time. But I got
to tell you, I don't know that anything really matches
that we've covered, that we've listened to, that we've born
witnessed to. Nothing really comes close to the Idaho four.
(03:52):
It's touched a nerve in across the country. It certainly,
it certainly got hold of you and I, if I
may speak for you, yeah, in that sense, and it
hasn't let go since.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
It's one of those cases that you know, it neighbors
across the street. Most people that I live around, you
know know what I do for a living, But I'm
a pretty low key cat, and this was the story
that they talked about with me. You know, I go
to the mailbox and it was hey, what about this?
(04:28):
And I found them watching all the coverage, watching on
all of the different shows that we're covering, because it
was that thing of innocence. Because most of the people
that are covering news and positions of authority have children
in college or older, and we've gone through that, and
you think about sending your twenty year old off to
college and the fun they're having, and you hear the
(04:49):
stories and they come home for the holidays, and you're
watching them grow into a person that you know their
their future looks in azel song futures of Right, I
Gotta wear shades, yep. And in this particular moment, for
those of us who followed crime, I couldn't help but
think of the Bundy attack at Kyle Omega in Florida.
You know, it was in the middle of the night.
It was a frenzied attack. But now after today, I'm
(05:15):
with you that I don't ever want to say that
man's name again.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Brian Cooper, and.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
I was so thankful that the Gonzalvaz family. I'm so
thankful they spoke from the heart and from the head.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
They I believe.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Olivia, the sister at Kaylee's older sister, Olivia, she's that
person who actually set out to accomplish something, to say something,
and she did. And I'm telling you, man, right now,
I'd vote for her or her dad for president.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
You know, yeah, I know. And it was so well
thought out. They took time in crafting it. The fact
that they that she in the statement, she returned to
something that we had visited early on over the course
of these many years of covering this case. You know,
(06:02):
that when we were first introduced to Brian Koberger and
his academic pursuits with that questionnaire. She literally took that
questionnaire in the midst of her impact statement and threw
it back in his face. You know, she asked him
questions like, how did you feel right before you committed
(06:25):
these crimes? And you know, if you recall, that was
literally one of the questions that was on this questionnaire
that he had put together. You know, this probative tool
that he was going to use to to examine these
people or get their world view. You know that are
in a state of incarceration, that have been done, that
had committed violent crimes. And isn't it fascinating, Oh, how
(06:49):
the worm has turned that he's that person. Now, he's
that person that will endwel those spaces that none of
us have ever really seen or understood. He's going to
be in there. I love the way, I think, to
a certain degree, I love the way that they kind
(07:11):
of dehumanized him, they defamed him. They had obviously come
to an agreement, they said that we no longer use
this name. We referred to him as Bukay again. That
was really impactful, I think, But you know, going back
to something that we've talked about off and on. I'm sorry,
(07:34):
I'm all over the board with this. There's so much
that kind of flooded into my brain during these past
few hours. She revisited this idea of how he he
was the smartest guy in the room, or he perceived
himself to be the smartest guy in the room, and
(07:56):
she went on to say, you're not. You're not the
smartest guy in the room as a matter of fact.
You know, and this is me paraphrasing, you know, you're
essentially a failure. You're a failure at everything you've ever done.
That you are you're pathetic, you know, and that you
you have believed I think that she said. And this
(08:18):
was and I had never heard this, Dave. This was
quite a big reveal. She said that you actually believed
that you were the smartest person based on an IQ
test that you've took online in twenty ten, that that
was your validation for your.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
This is what she said, Like that you have, yeah,
go ahead, exactly. This is what she said. Because I
actually got this. You thought you were exceptional all because
of a grade on a paper. You thought you were
a elite bait because your online IQ test from twenty
ten told you so, all of that effort just to
(08:56):
seem important.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
It's desperate.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
There's a name for your condition, though your inflated ego
just didn't allow you to see it. I want to
be You act like no one could ever understand your mind.
But the truth is your basic, your textbook case of
insecurity disguised as control. Your patterns are predictable, your motives
(09:19):
are shallow. You are not profound. You are pathetic. Wow,
that was Kayleian's obvious sister.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yeah, no, I don't. I don't know, you know, I
will think when Dad got up, I really I really
did expect. I expected to see, well, I expected to see,
you know, his head explode essentially. You know, because we've
watched him in interviews, we know that he feels that
(09:48):
there has been a disservice because the trial did not
move forward. Uh there. He had even hinted that the
family was not going to attend, right, and thankfully they
yet not going to attend the trial, and thankfully they
were there for the impact statements and as impactful as
(10:10):
he was, this sister, Oh my lord in heaven, I
did I mean you talk about coming out of left field.
I did not see this coming from her.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Have you ever seen impact statements that got an applause?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah, people applauded.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
When I actually in talking to Nancy just a few
minutes ago, I had. I mentioned that to her in
my closing comments on her show, where you know, I said,
and all of the thing that really stuck with me
about the impact statements was the fact that there was
(10:47):
applause in the courtroom. And again a tip of the
cap to the judge for allowing it, because I've seen
judges would you can make the slightest little move in
core and they'll say, I won't have any of this.
You'll be you know, you'll be taken out of here.
And I don't remember, and I was there from the
(11:08):
I watched the whole thing, and maybe I'm wrong, but
I do not recall him giving a warning to the
court to say, Okay, we're not going to tolerate any
kind of comments. If anybody acts out, if you feel
like you can't control yourself, leave He never said any
of that. I was and I was shocked by that
because generally, and then't that the way it is? You know,
(11:30):
you think about it, you think about everything these families
have endured, and that the DA folks don't understand something
like the DA does not represent the families. The DA
represents the state of Idaho, Okay. And there's really no
advocacy for families. You know, You've got people that do
(11:51):
therapy with them, and they'll speak on behalf of families
and all that sort of thing. But Dave, I got
to tell you, just through that one small thing that
I've seen in other courts when I'm covering trials on television,
suddenly the judge became an advocate for the families because
they are the victims here. You know, We've got the
(12:14):
victims that are now hopefully at peace, that are deceased
hoping you know that they are at peace. But those
victims that remain are you know, are these family members
that forever and ever they will be linked in blood
(12:37):
to these events that occurred back in November twenty twenty two.
I don't know that any joy could spring forth from this,
but I know something that they can be joyful about
that b K is now off the streets in a
deep dark hole. On that night when Brian Coburger slithered,
(13:17):
and that was a term that was actually used in
court today slithered into that address on King Road. He
essentially was a judge and the jury, not that they
needed a judge or jury, but he was also the executioner.
(13:38):
Relative to these four students, he ended their lives. But
here's something else that he did, by no fault of
their own, Dave. He sentenced every family member, even those
that weren't in the court but yet are related to
all of these victims. He sent an them to a
(14:02):
life that will be filled with grief because you know me,
I don't believe in closure, and this is never going
to be closed, as convenient as that would be for
some people to want to toy around with in their
own brains, these people will bear a burden for as
(14:23):
long as they're drawing breath on this Earth day, where
there's not going to be a day that they don't
remember these children. You know, I use the term empty
chair a lot Thanksgiving. I think about all of us
as a family gathered around the table, and when there's
the empty chair, you're always going to remember there will
forever be an empty chair these lives were. You know,
(14:45):
you've got parents that are burying their children, man, and
that's just that shouldn't happen. It just shouldn't happen. And
you and I have been at this for a while.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Man. The one thing that.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
As we have gotten into this that there have been
a number of things we don't know and still don't
know that I wanted to know. And I guess it's
the prurient interest. Okay, Joe. There was something that was
said by mister Gonzavz that I wanted to ask you
about because he said that they had been told certain things.
(15:17):
And you mentioned this in your opening, that the victims'
families have been told certain things about what took place
with their daughters, and we haven't heard it mentioned from
anybody else. And you mentioned that the prosecutor he represents
the state. He's not defending the family. He's not there
for the families. He's there to get a conviction or
to get some kind of resolution to the crime.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
I guess.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
But what we had Kale Gonzava's father actually said that
Brian Koberger was motivated to kill by his weird porn fetishes,
and Kaylee's body was found with marks around her mouth. Now,
I went and researched that comment in particular because I
haven't heard it mentioned by anybody else. We were told
(15:58):
from the very beginning they were killed in their beds
while they were asleep. But Steve Gonzavez from the very
beginning alluded to something more took place. And now that
they've pulled the gag order away, he is speaking out.
And he said that, and I found out that back
in right after it happened, when they had their first meeting,
(16:20):
and I guess I don't know if it was Kathy
Mabbutt or whoever, but somebody told them that she did
have markings over her mouth as if to keep her
from screaming. Now, to me, that means they weren't asleep
in their bed, Joe, if you're covering her and you're
leaving marks to her mouth. But he also says he
points out something that the weird porn fetishes. And he
(16:44):
pointed out that he's mad because they didn't talk more
about what they found on his phone, and Steve Gonzavz
said that they were getting calls from people close to
this investigation, they being the Gonzavaz family because they recalling
is saying that they're mad that the prosecutors are totally
dismissing the sexual nature of content found on Coberger's phone,
(17:07):
and that two of the fetishes passed out drunk girls
and gagging are found in that one room. He gagged,
kaylegan Zavez. That's what the marks are from. Now, Joe,
I'm telling that what we've been told is a lie
(17:27):
if that's the truth, because we've been told they were
killed in their beds asleep.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah, well that was discounted for me, at least very
early on, you know, when the coroner spoke out, and
I've been very robust. I think in my comments relative
to that feeling that nothing should have been said in
the first place inside the investigative bubble. The injuries to
(17:53):
the mouth, though they could be generated by any number
of ways, I think that it's important that we, you know,
kind of think about, you know, these internet searches and
being gagged. What does gag actually mean? You know, was
there an object placed in the mouth and it created
some kind of trauma where this thing is tied, you know,
(18:16):
in the back of the head. I think my suspicion
is is that with these insults that mister Gonsolveus has
alluded to, I think that it's probably a control of
violent control mechanism in order to get her to submit,
maybe to stop fighting. They could be you know, the
(18:37):
end of the end of a k bar knife can
be used as a bludgeon. He may have popped her
in the mouth of that. He may have popped her
in the mouth with his fist wrapped around the handle
of the blade. And that's why you're getting these traumatic
events around or seeing this as well, where you can
create all kinds of contusions around the mouth and within
(18:59):
the mouth just simply by violently pressing your hand over
the mouth to prevent them from what you think you're
preventing them from screaming, from yelling out. You get these
tiny little lacerations in the mouth from the teeth actually
because of the pressure being applied. So is that part
(19:23):
and parcel of BKA's fantasy maybe, And I think that
it also goes back to It also goes back to
was he surprised in any way by finding these other
occupants within the house when he had gone to such
(19:45):
great links to observe the house, surveil the house. And
then you're going to make such a stupid mistake by
showing up at this house on this particular night. And
there's four occupants in there. Was this part of his
fantasy or did he target one specific person? I think
(20:06):
that's that's going to be a question that hopefully as
these documents are gradually going to be released, and I
think that they will be. I was watching the post
trial or the post sentencing presser, and they had both
the detectives, the lead detectives in there, and what's going
(20:30):
to have to happen? I think it was also the
State Attorney General of the DA that made this comment.
They were having to go through there and actually, and
lord have we heard this term a lot lately on
the national front. They're having to redact a bunch of
comments or statements within these files, and they're going to
(20:51):
redact them and then release these documents. They did say
that at the website, the website for these documents is
going to be up and running today, And I'll go
ahead and tell our listeners, I mean today is July
(21:12):
twenty third. We're speaking on that Wednesday, and they said
affirmatively that that website would be up and running today.
So what are we going to see? What else is
going to be revealed in these documents? And yeah, I
guess some of it is is curiosity on our part,
you know, because we've been we've been you know, speculating
(21:37):
at best for a long time now about what we
thought had happened, who was involved in it, and there's
been all kinds of crazy things. I've already had comments
from people directed to me that there were members of
the area nation that actually did this, it was had
nothing to do with Brian Coberger. You know that people
(21:59):
still hold on to this idea about Papa Roger, which
the detectives got up said they found no evidence of
that and their investigation that this anonymous online person that's
making comments that people were swearing up and down that
this Papa Roger was actually Brian Koberger. A lot of
(22:20):
this deserves clarity, I think, and if not, this is
what I found happens when you kind of hide the truth,
it festers. It festers over a long period of time,
and these stories will continue to generate momentum and grow.
And if you think it's hard trying to understand and
know what the truth is, now, all you got to
(22:42):
do is if you don't release the documents and have
full full release, you're only going to encourage that infection
that will eventually go systemic. I was just on a
(23:09):
podcast with my friend Julian Dorry. I urge you to
check it out. It's on YouTube. It was just uploaded today,
the twenty third of July, and I made a comment
in my conversation with Julian that I don't care about justice.
(23:33):
And the reason I don't care about justice is that
there are all these people that beat their chest over
justice and shout it from the rooftops that they want justice,
and no one ever really knows what that means, you know,
because in this particular case, have we arrived at a
place of justice relative to these victims and their families.
(23:55):
I submit to you that we don't. That term in
and of itself is you know, you're chasing ghost if
that's what you want. Just like this idea of why
we can never we can never understand the why behind
somebody like this monster that's now been sentenced to consecutive
(24:20):
life terms of life in Idaho. But I think that
the most important thing for me, particularly as a forensics guy,
is following the science and trying to understand that. And
I would for me, at least on a superficial level,
I think that it's important that we reflect back to, well,
(24:41):
what did the science accomplish in this case. I know
that there was a lot of shoe leather that was expended.
I know there was a lot of knocking on doors
and all this sort of thing. But I believe in
my heart of hearts that the detectives that were involved
in this case used allience as the main tool at
(25:03):
their disposal. That it was the science behind this that
actually got this guy caught. Uh, you know, just multiple
areas his digital footprint, even when you think about things
like Amazon, which actually Kaylee's sister mentioned. But do you
have that quote day that she.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Said, she actually said it was all in that in
her presentation where she was just knocking him silly with
actual truth bombs. Okay, and here let me just let
me just quote a couple of lines here. Yeah, before
making your move, did you approach my sisters talking about
She's talking about Mattie and Kaylee.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
You know, she's Kayley Gonzava's sister.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
But Mattie and Kaylee were so close they looked at
them as sisters, Maddie as part of their family, you know.
And that's why before leaving, before leaving their home, is
there anything else you did. How does it feel to
know the only thing you've more miserably at than being
a murderer is trying to be a rapper. Did you
(26:05):
recently start shaving or manually pulling out your eyebrows?
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Why?
Speaker 3 (26:10):
November thirteenth, did you truly think your Amazon purchase was
untraceable because you used a gift card? How do you
find it enjoyable to stargaze with such a severe case
of visual Snow? Where is the murder weapon?
Speaker 1 (26:29):
I know? And you know you listen to that, and
I mean, she you're right, it was. It was. It
was a series of left handed jabs with a great
big right haymaker, Yeah, thrown into it. Just pop pop pop,
pop boom, and that she you know, she just let
this guy have it. We go back and we think
(26:51):
about the science involved in this, things that maybe some
people don't consider to be science. But leaving behind a
digital footprint is one of the biggest tools that we
have in forensic science. Now, because you know, I'm looking
at my cell phone right now, which I wish I wasn't.
It's sitting here before me. Years is sitting before you.
We have a digital footprintice left behind and it's really
(27:13):
hard to erase. It is almost as identifying as the
DNA that was found on that button snap that he
left behind. We think about the CCTV about his car.
You know, they took that car, that image of that car,
(27:33):
they sent it to Quantico and those people up there
ran it through their system as far as the image itself,
just to get that narrowed down. What does that digital
image reveal, Well, they were able to narrow it down
by your model, that sort of thing. How many of
those year models are there around there? Are they any
register to that area? How long? How many times I'm
(27:57):
thinking about this kind of talking out loud? I thought,
how many times did the Washington State University Police Department
drive by his car parked in the parking lot, not
necessarily giving it a second thought? All the while there
were people that were looking at this. You know, you
think about what kind of evidence may have been left
(28:17):
at his apartment contained there end go back to the
Amazon searches again with the replacement sheath and originally the
knife that he had purchased. Dave this, I don't think
that for the rest of my days, I will ever
hear k bar and not associated with these crimes. Again,
(28:42):
painting this picture and kind of filling it out all
along the way. And then you know, when they finally
served that warrant, and she talked about that, the truck
pulling up outside of the house in Pennsylvania, at his parents' house,
how did you feel at that moment in time. He
is in his drawers in the kitchen, you know, and
(29:03):
he's separating out garbage in there as he's wearing rubber gloves,
knowing he knew enough forensic science that he knew that
he had to get separation between himself and any kind
of DNA markers that he had left behind. I don't know.
It was an overwhelming volume of forensic evidence. I think
(29:23):
that that really put him away. I think it's not
really a disappointment. I think that it was I use
the term hollow, and I'm saying that from an academic sense.
I would I would certainly like to know what we're
absent here, what could have come out in trial that
(29:48):
we don't know right now. When you begin to put
people under cross examination and you begin to mind those lawyers,
mind those nuggets out of there, and all of a sudden,
it's like, Wow, a whole new world opens up to you. Yeah,
I don't know, Dave.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
Well, I will tell you the one thing that two
things in particularly that still hit me. You mentioned the
truck pulling up the night he's arrested, you know, at
his mom and dad's house, and you know, they're taking
out the in ziptize, you know, his elderly parents. They're
taken out in ziptize and put in the back of
a car.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
But when they get him out, you know, the first
thing Brian Coburger said to the law enforcement after he
had handcuffs on, was anyone else arrested?
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Yeah? And I think that that when that statement was
released all those months ago, that he that he had
actually made that statement that sent chin's wagging, I think
in social media world certainly. And I got to ask
you a question, Dave. Do you think he was smart
enough at that time to plant that seed in their brother?
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Do you think that that was intentional?
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Yes? I always have.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
So you're thinking in the affirm of here that he
was he was trying to plant that idea in their
brain at that point in time.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
Yeah, Because think about the question, was anyone else arrested? Yeah,
that's not the question you would ask if you were
in cahoots with other people, that would come later because
you had to find out what did they say? Right,
you know, because you can deny it culpable deniability. But no,
(31:27):
if you volunteer at the first thing you say is
was anybody else arrested? Well, now we know you're tied
to the other guys that are sitting in the back
of the car across the street, you.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Know, right, that's my thought on it.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
But yeah, and it's almost an affirmation of involvement, I
think on his part.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
So I don't know. Maybe maybe Kaylee's sister is a
lot more insightful than a lot of people are relevant.
I think she ain't too damn smart.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
No, she actually said so many things that were dead
on that I was really amazed. It actually helped me
with her talking today, actually really helped me understand better.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
What the family.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
The Gonzavaz family has been very verbal, you know, they've
been since the earliest parts of this. They've circled the
ways and said we've got to do something. They're action people.
But I wanted to go back to something you were
talking about. The forensics, you know, the science. We know
there's another aspect of the science that you and I
have been talking about on body bags. That is something
(32:30):
that's fairly new, and it's happened in a slow boil
because back when we were growing up, when they always
talk about the good old days and you leave your
doors unlocked and stuff like that. By the way, I
didn't live in that generation. I don't know if you did,
but my parents talked about the days when you used
to leave your doors unlocked. And then they were like, yeah,
but not during the depression, you know. Anyway, locked Hobo
(32:53):
Joe was going to create exactly. But anyway, I was
saying about the surveillance cameras that are now available, and
when a crime takes place, it's not just the business
down the street that has to have them, you know,
for their store or the bank. It's now the doorbell
cameras that we have. Yeah, and so because of what
(33:14):
is available, I actually put this timeline together for Nancy
because it was like, wait a minute, you realize that Coburger.
They know Coberg got in his Hyundai and turned off
his mobile phone at two forty seven am. They know
that he was at that he did that at his
place in Washington, and pull him in Washington. Then they
(33:37):
are able to they know he did it because he
turned his fonse so they couldn't track it. But cameras
picked him up crossing the state line at three h
two am. So you leave his house at two forty
seven three two, you're crossing the state line normal driving.
Surveillance cameras picture him there. They've been picked him up
(33:58):
at three point thirty when he reaches eleven twenty two
Kang Road. He circles the area three times. He is
seen on multiple cameras three times in the middle of
the night. Late you know, we're talking two forty seven
at three thirty in the morning and they're getting him
on video. Joe cameras catch him from businesses. At three
(34:19):
point fifty nine am. The door dash driver delivers the
jack in the box the zantakronodle at four oh seven
to four twenty. That's the time they believe Brian Coberger
got in the house to the back door, the sliding
(34:39):
door in the kitchen, went straight up the stairs.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
He knew where he was going.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
He entered on the second floor and immediately goes to
the third floor. And the first person that was apparently
attacked is Matty Mogan. She's attacked in her bed. Kayle
Goanzavez is attacked second, where she's beaten in the face.
She's trapped between Mattie's body and the wall and can't
(35:05):
get out, and he stabs her death multiple times, stabbed
multiple times.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
They were able to put all this together, Joe and spell.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
It out and re rebuild the night. I was really frustrated.
They've tore the house down. Yeah, and I still am.
But now we know that he killed Kaylee and Maddie
or Maddie then Kaylee, and we believe Xana was awake.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Now.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
I know it's not it's impolite to say that they
were drunk, but Gonzaba's family has talked about how they
were all partying. Everybody in the house was drinking. Ethan Japin,
bless his heart, he was already crashed out. Now Xanna
is eating Jack in the box at four o'clock in
the morning. Ethan's crashed out.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
He's out.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Now, Xanna, here's what's going on. It stairs and she
knows this is something different, so she goes to look.
And that's when I believe, based on what we've been told,
that's when b Kay is coming down the stairs. He
sees her and attacks her, and she doesn't make it
back to her room all the way, and he attacks
her and kills her, multi stabs her multiple times. I
(36:19):
think she's the only one that really knew what was
going on.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Yeah, probably so. And you and I spoken about this
about being in a deep, deep sleep and being awakened
all of a sudden with the crash of thunder or
whatever it is outside. I can't I can't imagine waking
(36:42):
up in my last memories or my paint centers firing
all over my body as somebody who's inserting steel into me.
And that's you know, that's essentially how it happened. I
think Zenna did did have an awareness. It would seem
that Ethan be not so much. Uh. And look, we
(37:03):
have no idea, you know, as mister Benzolvez had pointed
out that they had been partying. We have no idea
what their blood alcohol level is or was.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Maybe that's something that will eventually be revealed. It would
give us an idea as to maybe a lack of responsiveness,
you know, because one of the questions has been and
has been asked of me several times, has been well,
how can somebody not react to this level of violence
(37:35):
and how do people not have an awareness of it? Well,
you don't know what anybody's state of mind is at
any point in time, particularly if it's been influenced by
you know, let's just say alcohol. You have no idea.
You've got people that are exhausted. There, it's been a
long semester. They're done, they're almost done with it. They're
getting ready to go on Thanksgiving break. They just wanted
(37:57):
to party one last time. You've got one roommate this
coming back to visit everybody else she's done, yeah, car,
yeah exactly, and so uh and has in effect already
moved out.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
She was she didn't have a room there anymore.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Didn't That's why she was. She was in mass room. Yeah,
and so I don't know. You think about this, And
again this goes back to what Kaylee's sister had said
about lack of my own phrasing, lack of intelligence and
self awareness on his part. How is it that you're
(38:34):
going to expend so much time And she addresses this
in her statement day, how is this that you're going
to expend so much time to fail so miserably? How
could you not know that there were other people in
that house that particular night. How could you not know that,
particularly given the fact that, as you had well mentioned,
his phone goes off while he's it's turned off while
(38:58):
he is still over in Pull one and he leaves
out of there to head over to Moscow at that
point in time. Uh, and then you're going to circle
and view and all these sorts of things. And what
about what about the door dash driver? He According to her,
(39:19):
it would seem that on some level they made contact.
I don't know if it's from a great distance, if
their eye to eye, how close the cars were, but
she saw him. She was primed to be a witness,
an eyewitness that would put him there at that particular time,
and he being the only person. Remember it was just
(39:41):
last week that his defense team was putting out the
idea that there was more more than him and it
wasn't him, that it was somebody else. It came out today.
I think that there was an article that had surfaced
in People today that said, well, yeah, the plan all
along was to put it off on four acquaintances of
(40:02):
the kids, and the judge was like, yeah, this is
the biggest bunch of crowd, No, you can't use this defense.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
I was so thankful Joe that the way that they
were able to I'm thankful from a defense standpoint that
they were allowed to bring out a theory, and I'm
thankful that the judge followed the law said present your evidence.
We're going to do it without anybody here. It's just
the lawyers and me. Present your evidence about this possible theory.
(40:32):
If it holds any water, I'll let you present it.
And the judge listened to both sides as they presented
their theory of because they didn't have DNA from three
other from four of the people. Three that had there
were acquaintances of the people in the house and another
person who had no connection whatsoever, and that was what
they they petitioned, you know, to be able to use
(40:52):
this theory, and.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
The judge listened, He discussed it.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
He then went and thought about it and came back
and said, hey, wait minute, next time you do this,
go ahead and bring a bag in some charman, because
I'm not This ain't working. So and that's why as
soon as he said you cannot use this, because so
again now you're back to a jury.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
You only need one.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
You only need one person that says it's possible could
have been that guy, you know. And when they lost that,
when they lost the ability to throw these other people
under the bus. And if you notice, the judge didn't
even let them put the names out there. I thought,
I don't know how people got the info, and I
hope you don't want to ruin people's reputations by putting
them into this, and so the judge didn't allow that.
(41:35):
So anyway, but there was another part of this show,
Joe that in all of this, when you have talked
about this, a lot of it has impacted us because
I've mentioned in Orlando in the September twenty twenty three
crime Con, you did a presentation about this. Yeah, and
(42:00):
you spent the first fifteen or twenty minutes of your
talk to a By the way, when you go to
crime Con, it's big and there are several sessions taking
place all the time. A big session, I'll have a
thousand people and there will be a couple. Joe's was
filled up. There was no seat. I did not have
a seat. I actually gave my seat to someone else.
I had to stand. There are over three thousand people
(42:22):
in there, and the first twenty minutes was devoted to
talking about the students because as a professor at Jacksonville
State University, as a man and a husband and father
of young people in the age group here, it was
important for you to spend a lot of time on that.
And I thought, I thought it was time well served too,
(42:43):
because we forget the victims, and you spend a lot
of time on that. And after you got done with
your presentation, somebody who was not there for the first
twenty minutes, she only came in for the last thirty
minutes or so, maybe not even that long.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
It was Ethan Chapin's mom.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
They came in and said some things on a microphone
and then said some things in the press later on.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
And I thought, look, man, you got the right to
do whatever you want.
Speaker 3 (43:16):
Okay, I understand, but if you're going to shill a book,
make sure you criticize people for the right thing. And
I you brought me to tears in talking about the students.
That's why that impacted me so much. Because doing this
or a living, you know, we do a lot of stories.
Some of them do hit closer to home. This one
(43:38):
hit both of us very close to home. We get
kids in the age group. I mean, I've got a
daughter who looked like Kayley, and every time I see them,
I think of I think my daughter. I think of
Hannah and Ailey, and I think of I can't imagine
what I what would I do as a man, as
a husband, as a father.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
I would feel like I just abandoned my child.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Yep, and uh, the same on my side. I you know,
I thought about Uh. I thought about Manoah, who would
have graduated. He and Ethan would have graduated at the
same time, you know, from college. Uh. If Ethan had
you know, which had appeared that he was having success
in college. Yeah, I would have stayed on track as
(44:22):
the other things.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
Joe very quickly. Those students, they were all. I was
not a good student in college. I was an idiot.
These kids, they actually they're the dream man.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
Yeah, all of them.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Yeah. Most most schools that you visit or you talk to,
there's a more than statistical significant, statistically significant number of
kids that start college and don't finish. These kids were
all going to finish, yes, you know, and so they
were the exception. I think to a great degree. Their
their dream kids, kids that any parent would love to
(44:57):
have and again through his actions, he destroyed you know,
he destroyed everything. He destroyed first off, the lives of
these children, destroyed their parents, their siblings, lives, anybody, the grandparents.
There was a grandparent that was speaking today, step parents
(45:20):
that were there, you know, younger siblings that probably could
not have been there. And you know, to a great degree,
they scarred this little town and it is a little
town where nothing like this has ever happened before. They
scarred an institution, they scarred a state. You know, he
(45:43):
did not they, but Brian Coberger did by these selfish
actions on his part, because it is when it comes
down to it, it was pure selfishness. So I don't know, Yeah,
I do feel hollow, but I know this at the
end of the day, as much as I think many
of us would have liked to have seen Brian Koberger
(46:08):
strapped to that chair, and which is the way they
do it, with a firing squad with sandbags all behind him,
and you've got these riflemen that are loaded with thirty
caliber rounds and they send rounds down range pierce his chest.
A lot of people would have There would have been
(46:29):
as many people if they'd have been open to the public.
There would have been as many people waiting online to
watch that event as there were people were lining up
last night in Moscow to be present in the gallery.
I submit to you there would have been that many
people wanting to see him die.
Speaker 3 (46:48):
I want to share what I got to share this
because it's important. I earring a sister. Yeah, just that
was everything for me. I can walk away from the case.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
Now, Yeah, I think, yeah, she said.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
She says this to him. You aren't special or deep,
not mysterious or exceptional. Don't ever get it twisted again.
No one is scared of you today. No one is
intimidated by you, no one is impressed by you. No
one thinks that you are important. You orchestrated this like
you thought you were God. Now look at you begging
(47:28):
a courtroom for scraps. You spent months preparing, and still
all it took was my sister and as she your
work so hard it seemed dangerous. But real control doesn't
have to prove itself. The truth is the scariest part
about you is how painfully average you turned out to be.
(47:48):
The truth is as dumb as they come, stupid, clumsy, slow, sloppy, weak, dirty.
Let me be very clear, don't ever try to convince
yourself you mattered just because someone finally said your name
out loud. I see through you. You want the truth, Here's
(48:11):
the one you'll hate the most. If you hadn't attacked
them in their sleep in the middle of the night
like a pedophile, Kaylee would have kicked your blanking ass.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
Friends. There is nothing on the face of this planet
that I could add to that last comment period end
of paragraph. I hope that the victims rest in peace,
and I hope that along the way these family members
can find some sembilance of peace. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan,
(48:45):
and this is body Backs
Quality dars. But Joseph's gotten more. Let's see. Let me
reflect back just for a moment. I remember, obviously, when
my children were born. I remember graduation from kindergarten, first
(00:24):
trophy ceremony in Little League, dance trophies, gymnastics trophies. I
remember them going off to camp. I remember I'm starting
high school, graduating from high school. I remember graduation from college.
(00:48):
But you know what I can't share with other people,
particularly some people that have been on the radar for
some time, is I don't have a point of reference
for what it would be like to walk into a
courtroom and stand face to face with the individual that
(01:13):
had wiped out my family. And I don't mean in
a physical sense necessarily, but had completely wrecked my family
by nothing I had done except send my kid to college.
That's what happened today. As I'm speaking, I've just finished
(01:37):
watching the impact statements and the family members of the
four victims from Idaho, and I got to tell you
it left me feeling.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Hollow.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body bags. Okay,
here's the deal, Dave. I'm going to do my best
brother to not say Brian Coberger's name again in another
episode of Bodybags. I have had it, tired of it,
(02:20):
but not as tired as family members are. Can you
imagine living in that world and inhabiting that world and
knowing the things that they know that we don't know,
that have been revealed to them by the district Attorney
or by the police detectives. And they've been having to
bear this burden all these years. Since November of twenty
(02:45):
twenty two.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
I believe it's been that long.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I know, I know, That's what I was thinking today.
I was sitting there and I started off early this
morning on Court TV, hopped on with Long Crime, and
just finished up with Nancy a few minutes ago, and
you know that's the one. It's like you and I
are sympatical. Man. I was reflecting during each one of
(03:10):
those moments about how long we've been talking about this,
And you know, the thing about it is as callous
and I don't mean it to sound callous, but we're
part of the media. There are going to be other
cases that at the moment time, when we get them,
we will say, and I know, because I'm guilty of it,
(03:32):
we'll say, this is the most horrific thing that we've
heard of at that point in time. But I got
to tell you, I don't know that anything really matches
that we've covered, that we've listened to, that we've born
witnessed to. Nothing really comes close to the Idaho four.
(03:52):
It's touched a nerve in across the country. It certainly,
it certainly got hold of you and I, if I
may speak for you, yeah, in that sense, and it
hasn't let go since.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
It's one of those cases that you know, it neighbors
across the street. Most people that I live around, you
know know what I do for a living, But I'm
a pretty low key cat, and this was the story
that they talked about with me. You know, I go
to the mailbox and it was hey, what about this?
(04:28):
And I found them watching all the coverage, watching on
all of the different shows that we're covering, because it
was that thing of innocence. Because most of the people
that are covering news and positions of authority have children
in college or older, and we've gone through that, and
you think about sending your twenty year old off to
college and the fun they're having, and you hear the
(04:49):
stories and they come home for the holidays, and you're
watching them grow into a person that you know their
their future looks in azel song futures of Right, I
Gotta wear shades, yep. And in this particular moment, for
those of us who followed crime, I couldn't help but
think of the Bundy attack at Kyle Omega in Florida.
You know, it was in the middle of the night.
It was a frenzied attack. But now after today, I'm
(05:15):
with you that I don't ever want to say that
man's name again.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Brian Cooper, and.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
I was so thankful that the Gonzalvaz family. I'm so
thankful they spoke from the heart and from the head.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
They I believe.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Olivia, the sister at Kaylee's older sister, Olivia, she's that
person who actually set out to accomplish something, to say something,
and she did. And I'm telling you, man, right now,
I'd vote for her or her dad for president.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
You know, yeah, I know. And it was so well
thought out. They took time in crafting it. The fact
that they that she in the statement, she returned to
something that we had visited early on over the course
of these many years of covering this case. You know,
(06:02):
that when we were first introduced to Brian Koberger and
his academic pursuits with that questionnaire. She literally took that
questionnaire in the midst of her impact statement and threw
it back in his face. You know, she asked him
questions like, how did you feel right before you committed
(06:25):
these crimes? And you know, if you recall, that was
literally one of the questions that was on this questionnaire
that he had put together. You know, this probative tool
that he was going to use to to examine these
people or get their world view. You know that are
in a state of incarceration, that have been done, that
had committed violent crimes. And isn't it fascinating, Oh, how
(06:49):
the worm has turned that he's that person. Now, he's
that person that will endwel those spaces that none of
us have ever really seen or understood. He's going to
be in there. I love the way, I think, to
a certain degree, I love the way that they kind
(07:11):
of dehumanized him, they defamed him. They had obviously come
to an agreement, they said that we no longer use
this name. We referred to him as Bukay again. That
was really impactful, I think, But you know, going back
to something that we've talked about off and on. I'm sorry,
(07:34):
I'm all over the board with this. There's so much
that kind of flooded into my brain during these past
few hours. She revisited this idea of how he he
was the smartest guy in the room, or he perceived
himself to be the smartest guy in the room, and
(07:56):
she went on to say, you're not. You're not the
smartest guy in the room as a matter of fact.
You know, and this is me paraphrasing, you know, you're
essentially a failure. You're a failure at everything you've ever done.
That you are you're pathetic, you know, and that you
you have believed I think that she said. And this
(08:18):
was and I had never heard this, Dave. This was
quite a big reveal. She said that you actually believed
that you were the smartest person based on an IQ
test that you've took online in twenty ten, that that
was your validation for your.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
This is what she said, Like that you have, yeah,
go ahead, exactly. This is what she said. Because I
actually got this. You thought you were exceptional all because
of a grade on a paper. You thought you were
a elite bait because your online IQ test from twenty
ten told you so, all of that effort just to
(08:56):
seem important.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
It's desperate.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
There's a name for your condition, though your inflated ego
just didn't allow you to see it. I want to
be You act like no one could ever understand your mind.
But the truth is your basic, your textbook case of
insecurity disguised as control. Your patterns are predictable, your motives
(09:19):
are shallow. You are not profound. You are pathetic. Wow,
that was Kayleian's obvious sister.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yeah, no, I don't. I don't know, you know, I
will think when Dad got up, I really I really
did expect. I expected to see, well, I expected to see,
you know, his head explode essentially. You know, because we've
watched him in interviews, we know that he feels that
(09:48):
there has been a disservice because the trial did not
move forward. Uh there. He had even hinted that the
family was not going to attend, right, and thankfully they
yet not going to attend the trial, and thankfully they
were there for the impact statements and as impactful as
(10:10):
he was, this sister, Oh my lord in heaven, I
did I mean you talk about coming out of left field.
I did not see this coming from her.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Have you ever seen impact statements that got an applause?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah, people applauded.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
When I actually in talking to Nancy just a few
minutes ago, I had. I mentioned that to her in
my closing comments on her show, where you know, I said,
and all of the thing that really stuck with me
about the impact statements was the fact that there was
(10:47):
applause in the courtroom. And again a tip of the
cap to the judge for allowing it, because I've seen
judges would you can make the slightest little move in
core and they'll say, I won't have any of this.
You'll be you know, you'll be taken out of here.
And I don't remember, and I was there from the
(11:08):
I watched the whole thing, and maybe I'm wrong, but
I do not recall him giving a warning to the
court to say, Okay, we're not going to tolerate any
kind of comments. If anybody acts out, if you feel
like you can't control yourself, leave He never said any
of that. I was and I was shocked by that
because generally, and then't that the way it is? You know,
(11:30):
you think about it, you think about everything these families
have endured, and that the DA folks don't understand something
like the DA does not represent the families. The DA
represents the state of Idaho, Okay. And there's really no
advocacy for families. You know, You've got people that do
(11:51):
therapy with them, and they'll speak on behalf of families
and all that sort of thing. But Dave, I got
to tell you, just through that one small thing that
I've seen in other courts when I'm covering trials on television,
suddenly the judge became an advocate for the families because
they are the victims here. You know, We've got the
(12:14):
victims that are now hopefully at peace, that are deceased
hoping you know that they are at peace. But those
victims that remain are you know, are these family members
that forever and ever they will be linked in blood
(12:37):
to these events that occurred back in November twenty twenty two.
I don't know that any joy could spring forth from this,
but I know something that they can be joyful about
that b K is now off the streets in a
deep dark hole. On that night when Brian Coburger slithered,
(13:17):
and that was a term that was actually used in
court today slithered into that address on King Road. He
essentially was a judge and the jury, not that they
needed a judge or jury, but he was also the executioner.
(13:38):
Relative to these four students, he ended their lives. But
here's something else that he did, by no fault of
their own, Dave. He sentenced every family member, even those
that weren't in the court but yet are related to
all of these victims. He sent an them to a
(14:02):
life that will be filled with grief because you know me,
I don't believe in closure, and this is never going
to be closed, as convenient as that would be for
some people to want to toy around with in their
own brains, these people will bear a burden for as
(14:23):
long as they're drawing breath on this Earth day, where
there's not going to be a day that they don't
remember these children. You know, I use the term empty
chair a lot Thanksgiving. I think about all of us
as a family gathered around the table, and when there's
the empty chair, you're always going to remember there will
forever be an empty chair these lives were. You know,
(14:45):
you've got parents that are burying their children, man, and
that's just that shouldn't happen. It just shouldn't happen. And
you and I have been at this for a while.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Man. The one thing that.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
As we have gotten into this that there have been
a number of things we don't know and still don't
know that I wanted to know. And I guess it's
the prurient interest. Okay, Joe. There was something that was
said by mister Gonzavz that I wanted to ask you
about because he said that they had been told certain things.
(15:17):
And you mentioned this in your opening, that the victims'
families have been told certain things about what took place
with their daughters, and we haven't heard it mentioned from
anybody else. And you mentioned that the prosecutor he represents
the state. He's not defending the family. He's not there
for the families. He's there to get a conviction or
to get some kind of resolution to the crime.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
I guess.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
But what we had Kale Gonzava's father actually said that
Brian Koberger was motivated to kill by his weird porn fetishes,
and Kaylee's body was found with marks around her mouth. Now,
I went and researched that comment in particular because I
haven't heard it mentioned by anybody else. We were told
(15:58):
from the very beginning they were killed in their beds
while they were asleep. But Steve Gonzavez from the very
beginning alluded to something more took place. And now that
they've pulled the gag order away, he is speaking out.
And he said that, and I found out that back
in right after it happened, when they had their first meeting,
(16:20):
and I guess I don't know if it was Kathy
Mabbutt or whoever, but somebody told them that she did
have markings over her mouth as if to keep her
from screaming. Now, to me, that means they weren't asleep
in their bed, Joe, if you're covering her and you're
leaving marks to her mouth. But he also says he
points out something that the weird porn fetishes. And he
(16:44):
pointed out that he's mad because they didn't talk more
about what they found on his phone, and Steve Gonzavz
said that they were getting calls from people close to
this investigation, they being the Gonzavaz family because they recalling
is saying that they're mad that the prosecutors are totally
dismissing the sexual nature of content found on Coberger's phone,
(17:07):
and that two of the fetishes passed out drunk girls
and gagging are found in that one room. He gagged,
kaylegan Zavez. That's what the marks are from. Now, Joe,
I'm telling that what we've been told is a lie
(17:27):
if that's the truth, because we've been told they were
killed in their beds asleep.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah, well that was discounted for me, at least very
early on, you know, when the coroner spoke out, and
I've been very robust. I think in my comments relative
to that feeling that nothing should have been said in
the first place inside the investigative bubble. The injuries to
(17:53):
the mouth, though they could be generated by any number
of ways, I think that it's important that we, you know,
kind of think about, you know, these internet searches and
being gagged. What does gag actually mean? You know, was
there an object placed in the mouth and it created
some kind of trauma where this thing is tied, you know,
(18:16):
in the back of the head. I think my suspicion
is is that with these insults that mister Gonsolveus has
alluded to, I think that it's probably a control of
violent control mechanism in order to get her to submit,
maybe to stop fighting. They could be you know, the
(18:37):
end of the end of a k bar knife can
be used as a bludgeon. He may have popped her
in the mouth of that. He may have popped her
in the mouth with his fist wrapped around the handle
of the blade. And that's why you're getting these traumatic
events around or seeing this as well, where you can
create all kinds of contusions around the mouth and within
(18:59):
the mouth just simply by violently pressing your hand over
the mouth to prevent them from what you think you're
preventing them from screaming, from yelling out. You get these
tiny little lacerations in the mouth from the teeth actually
because of the pressure being applied. So is that part
(19:23):
and parcel of BKA's fantasy maybe, And I think that
it also goes back to It also goes back to
was he surprised in any way by finding these other
occupants within the house when he had gone to such
(19:45):
great links to observe the house, surveil the house. And
then you're going to make such a stupid mistake by
showing up at this house on this particular night. And
there's four occupants in there. Was this part of his
fantasy or did he target one specific person? I think
(20:06):
that's that's going to be a question that hopefully as
these documents are gradually going to be released, and I
think that they will be. I was watching the post
trial or the post sentencing presser, and they had both
the detectives, the lead detectives in there, and what's going
(20:30):
to have to happen? I think it was also the
State Attorney General of the DA that made this comment.
They were having to go through there and actually, and
lord have we heard this term a lot lately on
the national front. They're having to redact a bunch of
comments or statements within these files, and they're going to
(20:51):
redact them and then release these documents. They did say
that at the website, the website for these documents is
going to be up and running today, And I'll go
ahead and tell our listeners, I mean today is July
(21:12):
twenty third. We're speaking on that Wednesday, and they said
affirmatively that that website would be up and running today.
So what are we going to see? What else is
going to be revealed in these documents? And yeah, I
guess some of it is is curiosity on our part,
you know, because we've been we've been you know, speculating
(21:37):
at best for a long time now about what we
thought had happened, who was involved in it, and there's
been all kinds of crazy things. I've already had comments
from people directed to me that there were members of
the area nation that actually did this, it was had
nothing to do with Brian Coberger. You know that people
(21:59):
still hold on to this idea about Papa Roger, which
the detectives got up said they found no evidence of
that and their investigation that this anonymous online person that's
making comments that people were swearing up and down that
this Papa Roger was actually Brian Koberger. A lot of
(22:20):
this deserves clarity, I think, and if not, this is
what I found happens when you kind of hide the truth,
it festers. It festers over a long period of time,
and these stories will continue to generate momentum and grow.
And if you think it's hard trying to understand and
know what the truth is, now, all you got to
(22:42):
do is if you don't release the documents and have
full full release, you're only going to encourage that infection
that will eventually go systemic. I was just on a
(23:09):
podcast with my friend Julian Dorry. I urge you to
check it out. It's on YouTube. It was just uploaded today,
the twenty third of July, and I made a comment
in my conversation with Julian that I don't care about justice.
(23:33):
And the reason I don't care about justice is that
there are all these people that beat their chest over
justice and shout it from the rooftops that they want justice,
and no one ever really knows what that means, you know,
because in this particular case, have we arrived at a
place of justice relative to these victims and their families.
(23:55):
I submit to you that we don't. That term in
and of itself is you know, you're chasing ghost if
that's what you want. Just like this idea of why
we can never we can never understand the why behind
somebody like this monster that's now been sentenced to consecutive
(24:20):
life terms of life in Idaho. But I think that
the most important thing for me, particularly as a forensics guy,
is following the science and trying to understand that. And
I would for me, at least on a superficial level,
I think that it's important that we reflect back to, well,
(24:41):
what did the science accomplish in this case. I know
that there was a lot of shoe leather that was expended.
I know there was a lot of knocking on doors
and all this sort of thing. But I believe in
my heart of hearts that the detectives that were involved
in this case used allience as the main tool at
(25:03):
their disposal. That it was the science behind this that
actually got this guy caught. Uh, you know, just multiple
areas his digital footprint, even when you think about things
like Amazon, which actually Kaylee's sister mentioned. But do you
have that quote day that she.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Said, she actually said it was all in that in
her presentation where she was just knocking him silly with
actual truth bombs. Okay, and here let me just let
me just quote a couple of lines here. Yeah, before
making your move, did you approach my sisters talking about
She's talking about Mattie and Kaylee.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
You know, she's Kayley Gonzava's sister.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
But Mattie and Kaylee were so close they looked at
them as sisters, Maddie as part of their family, you know.
And that's why before leaving, before leaving their home, is
there anything else you did. How does it feel to
know the only thing you've more miserably at than being
a murderer is trying to be a rapper. Did you
(26:05):
recently start shaving or manually pulling out your eyebrows?
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Why?
Speaker 3 (26:10):
November thirteenth, did you truly think your Amazon purchase was
untraceable because you used a gift card? How do you
find it enjoyable to stargaze with such a severe case
of visual Snow? Where is the murder weapon?
Speaker 1 (26:29):
I know? And you know you listen to that, and
I mean, she you're right, it was. It was. It
was a series of left handed jabs with a great
big right haymaker, Yeah, thrown into it. Just pop pop pop,
pop boom, and that she you know, she just let
this guy have it. We go back and we think
(26:51):
about the science involved in this, things that maybe some
people don't consider to be science. But leaving behind a
digital footprint is one of the biggest tools that we
have in forensic science. Now, because you know, I'm looking
at my cell phone right now, which I wish I wasn't.
It's sitting here before me. Years is sitting before you.
We have a digital footprintice left behind and it's really
(27:13):
hard to erase. It is almost as identifying as the
DNA that was found on that button snap that he
left behind. We think about the CCTV about his car.
You know, they took that car, that image of that car,
(27:33):
they sent it to Quantico and those people up there
ran it through their system as far as the image itself,
just to get that narrowed down. What does that digital
image reveal, Well, they were able to narrow it down
by your model, that sort of thing. How many of
those year models are there around there? Are they any
register to that area? How long? How many times I'm
(27:57):
thinking about this kind of talking out loud? I thought,
how many times did the Washington State University Police Department
drive by his car parked in the parking lot, not
necessarily giving it a second thought? All the while there
were people that were looking at this. You know, you
think about what kind of evidence may have been left
(28:17):
at his apartment contained there end go back to the
Amazon searches again with the replacement sheath and originally the
knife that he had purchased. Dave this, I don't think
that for the rest of my days, I will ever
hear k bar and not associated with these crimes. Again,
(28:42):
painting this picture and kind of filling it out all
along the way. And then you know, when they finally
served that warrant, and she talked about that, the truck
pulling up outside of the house in Pennsylvania, at his parents' house,
how did you feel at that moment in time. He
is in his drawers in the kitchen, you know, and
(29:03):
he's separating out garbage in there as he's wearing rubber gloves,
knowing he knew enough forensic science that he knew that
he had to get separation between himself and any kind
of DNA markers that he had left behind. I don't know.
It was an overwhelming volume of forensic evidence. I think
(29:23):
that that really put him away. I think it's not
really a disappointment. I think that it was I use
the term hollow, and I'm saying that from an academic sense.
I would I would certainly like to know what we're
absent here, what could have come out in trial that
(29:48):
we don't know right now. When you begin to put
people under cross examination and you begin to mind those lawyers,
mind those nuggets out of there, and all of a sudden,
it's like, Wow, a whole new world opens up to you. Yeah,
I don't know, Dave.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
Well, I will tell you the one thing that two
things in particularly that still hit me. You mentioned the
truck pulling up the night he's arrested, you know, at
his mom and dad's house, and you know, they're taking
out the in ziptize, you know, his elderly parents. They're
taken out in ziptize and put in the back of
a car.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
But when they get him out, you know, the first
thing Brian Coburger said to the law enforcement after he
had handcuffs on, was anyone else arrested?
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Yeah? And I think that that when that statement was
released all those months ago, that he that he had
actually made that statement that sent chin's wagging, I think
in social media world certainly. And I got to ask
you a question, Dave. Do you think he was smart
enough at that time to plant that seed in their brother?
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Do you think that that was intentional?
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Yes? I always have.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
So you're thinking in the affirm of here that he
was he was trying to plant that idea in their
brain at that point in time.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
Yeah, Because think about the question, was anyone else arrested? Yeah,
that's not the question you would ask if you were
in cahoots with other people, that would come later because
you had to find out what did they say? Right,
you know, because you can deny it culpable deniability. But no,
(31:27):
if you volunteer at the first thing you say is
was anybody else arrested? Well, now we know you're tied
to the other guys that are sitting in the back
of the car across the street, you.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Know, right, that's my thought on it.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
But yeah, and it's almost an affirmation of involvement, I
think on his part.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
So I don't know. Maybe maybe Kaylee's sister is a
lot more insightful than a lot of people are relevant.
I think she ain't too damn smart.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
No, she actually said so many things that were dead
on that I was really amazed. It actually helped me
with her talking today, actually really helped me understand better.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
What the family.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
The Gonzavaz family has been very verbal, you know, they've
been since the earliest parts of this. They've circled the
ways and said we've got to do something. They're action people.
But I wanted to go back to something you were
talking about. The forensics, you know, the science. We know
there's another aspect of the science that you and I
have been talking about on body bags. That is something
(32:30):
that's fairly new, and it's happened in a slow boil
because back when we were growing up, when they always
talk about the good old days and you leave your
doors unlocked and stuff like that. By the way, I
didn't live in that generation. I don't know if you did,
but my parents talked about the days when you used
to leave your doors unlocked. And then they were like, yeah,
but not during the depression, you know. Anyway, locked Hobo
(32:53):
Joe was going to create exactly. But anyway, I was
saying about the surveillance cameras that are now available, and
when a crime takes place, it's not just the business
down the street that has to have them, you know,
for their store or the bank. It's now the doorbell
cameras that we have. Yeah, and so because of what
(33:14):
is available, I actually put this timeline together for Nancy
because it was like, wait a minute, you realize that Coburger.
They know Coberg got in his Hyundai and turned off
his mobile phone at two forty seven am. They know
that he was at that he did that at his
place in Washington, and pull him in Washington. Then they
(33:37):
are able to they know he did it because he
turned his fonse so they couldn't track it. But cameras
picked him up crossing the state line at three h
two am. So you leave his house at two forty
seven three two, you're crossing the state line normal driving.
Surveillance cameras picture him there. They've been picked him up
(33:58):
at three point thirty when he reaches eleven twenty two
Kang Road. He circles the area three times. He is
seen on multiple cameras three times in the middle of
the night. Late you know, we're talking two forty seven
at three thirty in the morning and they're getting him
on video. Joe cameras catch him from businesses. At three
(34:19):
point fifty nine am. The door dash driver delivers the
jack in the box the zantakronodle at four oh seven
to four twenty. That's the time they believe Brian Coberger
got in the house to the back door, the sliding
(34:39):
door in the kitchen, went straight up the stairs.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
He knew where he was going.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
He entered on the second floor and immediately goes to
the third floor. And the first person that was apparently
attacked is Matty Mogan. She's attacked in her bed. Kayle
Goanzavez is attacked second, where she's beaten in the face.
She's trapped between Mattie's body and the wall and can't
(35:05):
get out, and he stabs her death multiple times, stabbed
multiple times.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
They were able to put all this together, Joe and spell.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
It out and re rebuild the night. I was really frustrated.
They've tore the house down. Yeah, and I still am.
But now we know that he killed Kaylee and Maddie
or Maddie then Kaylee, and we believe Xana was awake.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Now.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
I know it's not it's impolite to say that they
were drunk, but Gonzaba's family has talked about how they
were all partying. Everybody in the house was drinking. Ethan Japin,
bless his heart, he was already crashed out. Now Xanna
is eating Jack in the box at four o'clock in
the morning. Ethan's crashed out.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
He's out.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Now, Xanna, here's what's going on. It stairs and she
knows this is something different, so she goes to look.
And that's when I believe, based on what we've been told,
that's when b Kay is coming down the stairs. He
sees her and attacks her, and she doesn't make it
back to her room all the way, and he attacks
her and kills her, multi stabs her multiple times. I
(36:19):
think she's the only one that really knew what was
going on.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Yeah, probably so. And you and I spoken about this
about being in a deep, deep sleep and being awakened
all of a sudden with the crash of thunder or
whatever it is outside. I can't I can't imagine waking
(36:42):
up in my last memories or my paint centers firing
all over my body as somebody who's inserting steel into me.
And that's you know, that's essentially how it happened. I
think Zenna did did have an awareness. It would seem
that Ethan be not so much. Uh. And look, we
(37:03):
have no idea, you know, as mister Benzolvez had pointed
out that they had been partying. We have no idea
what their blood alcohol level is or was.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Maybe that's something that will eventually be revealed. It would
give us an idea as to maybe a lack of responsiveness,
you know, because one of the questions has been and
has been asked of me several times, has been well,
how can somebody not react to this level of violence
(37:35):
and how do people not have an awareness of it? Well,
you don't know what anybody's state of mind is at
any point in time, particularly if it's been influenced by
you know, let's just say alcohol. You have no idea.
You've got people that are exhausted. There, it's been a
long semester. They're done, they're almost done with it. They're
getting ready to go on Thanksgiving break. They just wanted
(37:57):
to party one last time. You've got one roommate this
coming back to visit everybody else she's done, yeah, car,
yeah exactly, and so uh and has in effect already
moved out.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
She was she didn't have a room there anymore.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Didn't That's why she was. She was in mass room. Yeah,
and so I don't know. You think about this, And
again this goes back to what Kaylee's sister had said
about lack of my own phrasing, lack of intelligence and
self awareness on his part. How is it that you're
(38:34):
going to expend so much time And she addresses this
in her statement day, how is this that you're going
to expend so much time to fail so miserably? How
could you not know that there were other people in
that house that particular night. How could you not know that,
particularly given the fact that, as you had well mentioned,
his phone goes off while he's it's turned off while
(38:58):
he is still over in Pull one and he leaves
out of there to head over to Moscow at that
point in time. Uh, and then you're going to circle
and view and all these sorts of things. And what
about what about the door dash driver? He According to her,
(39:19):
it would seem that on some level they made contact.
I don't know if it's from a great distance, if
their eye to eye, how close the cars were, but
she saw him. She was primed to be a witness,
an eyewitness that would put him there at that particular time,
and he being the only person. Remember it was just
(39:41):
last week that his defense team was putting out the
idea that there was more more than him and it
wasn't him, that it was somebody else. It came out today.
I think that there was an article that had surfaced
in People today that said, well, yeah, the plan all
along was to put it off on four acquaintances of
(40:02):
the kids, and the judge was like, yeah, this is
the biggest bunch of crowd, No, you can't use this defense.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
I was so thankful Joe that the way that they
were able to I'm thankful from a defense standpoint that
they were allowed to bring out a theory, and I'm
thankful that the judge followed the law said present your evidence.
We're going to do it without anybody here. It's just
the lawyers and me. Present your evidence about this possible theory.
(40:32):
If it holds any water, I'll let you present it.
And the judge listened to both sides as they presented
their theory of because they didn't have DNA from three
other from four of the people. Three that had there
were acquaintances of the people in the house and another
person who had no connection whatsoever, and that was what
they they petitioned, you know, to be able to use
(40:52):
this theory, and.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
The judge listened, He discussed it.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
He then went and thought about it and came back
and said, hey, wait minute, next time you do this,
go ahead and bring a bag in some charman, because
I'm not This ain't working. So and that's why as
soon as he said you cannot use this, because so
again now you're back to a jury.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
You only need one.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
You only need one person that says it's possible could
have been that guy, you know. And when they lost that,
when they lost the ability to throw these other people
under the bus. And if you notice, the judge didn't
even let them put the names out there. I thought,
I don't know how people got the info, and I
hope you don't want to ruin people's reputations by putting
them into this, and so the judge didn't allow that.
(41:35):
So anyway, but there was another part of this show,
Joe that in all of this, when you have talked
about this, a lot of it has impacted us because
I've mentioned in Orlando in the September twenty twenty three
crime Con, you did a presentation about this. Yeah, and
(42:00):
you spent the first fifteen or twenty minutes of your
talk to a By the way, when you go to
crime Con, it's big and there are several sessions taking
place all the time. A big session, I'll have a
thousand people and there will be a couple. Joe's was
filled up. There was no seat. I did not have
a seat. I actually gave my seat to someone else.
I had to stand. There are over three thousand people
(42:22):
in there, and the first twenty minutes was devoted to
talking about the students because as a professor at Jacksonville
State University, as a man and a husband and father
of young people in the age group here, it was
important for you to spend a lot of time on that.
And I thought, I thought it was time well served too,
(42:43):
because we forget the victims, and you spend a lot
of time on that. And after you got done with
your presentation, somebody who was not there for the first
twenty minutes, she only came in for the last thirty
minutes or so, maybe not even that long.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
It was Ethan Chapin's mom.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
They came in and said some things on a microphone
and then said some things in the press later on.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
And I thought, look, man, you got the right to
do whatever you want.
Speaker 3 (43:16):
Okay, I understand, but if you're going to shill a book,
make sure you criticize people for the right thing. And
I you brought me to tears in talking about the students.
That's why that impacted me so much. Because doing this
or a living, you know, we do a lot of stories.
Some of them do hit closer to home. This one
(43:38):
hit both of us very close to home. We get
kids in the age group. I mean, I've got a
daughter who looked like Kayley, and every time I see them,
I think of I think my daughter. I think of
Hannah and Ailey, and I think of I can't imagine
what I what would I do as a man, as
a husband, as a father.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
I would feel like I just abandoned my child.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Yep, and uh, the same on my side. I you know,
I thought about Uh. I thought about Manoah, who would
have graduated. He and Ethan would have graduated at the
same time, you know, from college. Uh. If Ethan had
you know, which had appeared that he was having success
in college. Yeah, I would have stayed on track as
(44:22):
the other things.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
Joe very quickly. Those students, they were all. I was
not a good student in college. I was an idiot.
These kids, they actually they're the dream man.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
Yeah, all of them.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Yeah. Most most schools that you visit or you talk to,
there's a more than statistical significant, statistically significant number of
kids that start college and don't finish. These kids were
all going to finish, yes, you know, and so they
were the exception. I think to a great degree. Their
their dream kids, kids that any parent would love to
(44:57):
have and again through his actions, he destroyed you know,
he destroyed everything. He destroyed first off, the lives of
these children, destroyed their parents, their siblings, lives, anybody, the grandparents.
There was a grandparent that was speaking today, step parents
(45:20):
that were there, you know, younger siblings that probably could
not have been there. And you know, to a great degree,
they scarred this little town and it is a little
town where nothing like this has ever happened before. They
scarred an institution, they scarred a state. You know, he
(45:43):
did not they, but Brian Coberger did by these selfish
actions on his part, because it is when it comes
down to it, it was pure selfishness. So I don't know, Yeah,
I do feel hollow, but I know this at the
end of the day, as much as I think many
of us would have liked to have seen Brian Koberger
(46:08):
strapped to that chair, and which is the way they
do it, with a firing squad with sandbags all behind him,
and you've got these riflemen that are loaded with thirty
caliber rounds and they send rounds down range pierce his chest.
A lot of people would have There would have been
(46:29):
as many people if they'd have been open to the public.
There would have been as many people waiting online to
watch that event as there were people were lining up
last night in Moscow to be present in the gallery.
I submit to you there would have been that many
people wanting to see him die.
Speaker 3 (46:48):
I want to share what I got to share this
because it's important. I earring a sister. Yeah, just that
was everything for me. I can walk away from the case.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
Now, Yeah, I think, yeah, she said.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
She says this to him. You aren't special or deep,
not mysterious or exceptional. Don't ever get it twisted again.
No one is scared of you today. No one is
intimidated by you, no one is impressed by you. No
one thinks that you are important. You orchestrated this like
you thought you were God. Now look at you begging
(47:28):
a courtroom for scraps. You spent months preparing, and still
all it took was my sister and as she your
work so hard it seemed dangerous. But real control doesn't
have to prove itself. The truth is the scariest part
about you is how painfully average you turned out to be.
(47:48):
The truth is as dumb as they come, stupid, clumsy, slow, sloppy, weak, dirty.
Let me be very clear, don't ever try to convince
yourself you mattered just because someone finally said your name
out loud. I see through you. You want the truth, Here's
(48:11):
the one you'll hate the most. If you hadn't attacked
them in their sleep in the middle of the night
like a pedophile, Kaylee would have kicked your blanking ass.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
Friends. There is nothing on the face of this planet
that I could add to that last comment period end
of paragraph. I hope that the victims rest in peace,
and I hope that along the way these family members
can find some sembilance of peace. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan,
(48:45):
and this is body Backs
Host
Joseph Scott Morgan
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.