August 13, 2025 • 45 mins
Clinton and Cristen Brink have recently moved to Arkansas with their daughters and decide to go for a hike in Devils Den State Park.
Without warning, the family is ambushed on a hiking trail by a man with a knife. 43-year-old Clinton fights with the man as 41-year-old Cristen runs with their daughters, 9-year-old Arianna and 7-year-old Christina, until they are a safe distance away from where the attack is taking place.
Cristen tells the girls to run towards where they parked their car and get help. Cristen then returns to help her husband. The girls do as they are told, and some hikers in the park find them and take them to the entrance to the park to tell a ranger what happened.
Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack discuss this shocking case and break down the forensic evidence that is used to identify the suspect, Andrew McGann, and what evidence directly ties him to the crime.
Transcript Highlights
00:01.22 Introduction
00:33.99 Haircuts with Pa-Paw
05:05.82 Multiple agency's involved
06:09.21 Two girls trying to find help
10:36.34 Mom gets girls to safety
14:54.34 Suspect gets out of park
18:58.82 Understanding the crime scene
24:00.80 Knife is painful way to die
29:12.39 Tracking suspect
34:14.21 Blood didn't match victims
39:26.36 Injuries on hand of suspect
44:27.28 Suspect Andrew McGann
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Quody diamonds, but Joseph's gotten more. My grandparents lived in Monroe, Louisiana.
I was actually born there. I've got half my family's
up in North Louisiana. The other halse do in South Louisiana.
And some of my fondest remembrances were hanging out with
(00:21):
my grandpa on Saturday mornings. It was Saturday mornings were
from my I calling Papa, were for my Papa. Sunday
mornings for my Grandma. What made Saturday so special is
we did two things. We went to the sail barn
because he raised horses and mules, and then we went
(00:45):
to the barbershop, and it was a weekly event for him.
This man didn't go a week without getting a haircut.
Men of his generation did that. And what's so special
was it wasn't just the fact that you went to
the barbershop to get a haircut. It was the fact
that all the old guys just like Papa were in
there and guess what they were doing, swapping tails. And
(01:09):
I learned more sitting around with those older gentlemen, hanging out,
listening to my papa whole forth and listening to them
telling him he was full of it. It was a
grand time. But you know, the one thing remains with
my grandfather. His haircut always remained the same. When he
(01:32):
would go in there, he would look the same, except
his hair would be a little bit shorter, at least
until the next Saturday. But what if you had a
suspected double murderer walk in to a hair salon, not
so that he could chat, not so that he could reminisce,
(01:55):
not so that he could shoot the bull, but so
that he could change his appearance so no one would
know who he was. Today on Bodybags, we're going to
explore a most disturbing case of a double homicide that
was committed in front of two young children. I'm Joseph
(02:21):
Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. You know, Dave. Since
I was little, I had heard about Devil's Den in Arkansas.
I said that I lived in Monroe when I was little,
and it's right near the Arkansas border. My grandfather's people
(02:42):
were from Drew County, Arkansas, which is like Monaicello. It's
down in the southern part. But you know, my grandfather
had nephews that had worked in the what was it
called FDR set. These things up the workers, you know,
during the depression, where they would go out and they
(03:03):
would build build these projects w WPA. Is that what
it was? Work? Yeah, I think that's what it was.
And a couple of his nephews had worked up in
Devil's Den. It was actually a creation of the Roosevelt administration.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
And creating jobs for people who were out of work.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I never got to go there,
but I always heard about how beautiful it was. Particularly
they've got this gorgeous waterfall that it's up there. There's
a lot of caves. It's associated with Confederacy, particularly Confederate guerrillas.
There have been fights up there and all that sort
of stuff. Isolated area Man and the southern Ozark's Ozark
(03:46):
Mountain Range, and it sounds so peaceful. But Dave, I've
got to tell you, brother, what happened up there just
a few days ago is anything but peaceful. And it's
something that I know of. Certainly, two kids that were
(04:08):
there and another kid that was not there, they're going
to be left scarred for the rest of their lives.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Oh my gosh, Devil's Den State Park.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
I'm going to be honest with you, Joe, there's a
couple of things I avoid. Yeah, if you call something
Devil's Den, yeah, I'm not going. There's no need I don't.
I don't fence with the devil. And if I come
to in numbers, like when we have to number something,
I don't number six sixty six.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I R six six five sixty six seven. That's just me.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
So when something devilish happens in Devil's Den, hey man,
it just is.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
It's shocking to me.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
That this happened in such a way that the description
is this, well, you know it started. I went back
to hear the original or the initial transmission between the
officers and dispatch, because I wanted to know we were
hearing so many different things, so many different stories, because
it isn't a rural area. You had multiple different groups working.
(05:06):
You had the Sheriff's department, you had the Forestry Service,
you had police, state patrol. There are four or five
different agencies that all had something to do, and you
had at least the killing of two people that they thought,
but the first reports show because they came from two children,
all right, two little girls, a nine year old and
(05:28):
a seven year old are running through the park when
a couple of hikers run into them, and the girls say,
we need help, and they're trying to get The hikers
are trying to get what's going on from this nine
year old and seven year old, and they're not really
getting the full story because I don't know how you
describe something like that. I don't know how I would
(05:49):
describe it to somebody else, show much less a seven
or nine year old.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yeah no, And can you imagine trying to and you know,
and it's not like the hikers are necessarily train first responders,
right naturally, they're they're relaxing, doing the train to help
some kids. Yeah no, And this is this is truly
a hiking area. It's got trails that there's actually an
old abandoned city there. Wow, that kind of vanished. The
(06:15):
only thing that remains of the old I say city
little village is the graveyard and the foundation of the homes.
And I think it was wiped out by flood back
in the eighteen nineties.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
If you could have been the mud flood to got
rid of the tartarians at any rate, though, Joe, here's
the thing. You've got a nine year old and a
seven year old. They're about a half mile inside the
camp on a trail when two hikers find out, okay,
your parents are hurt. So they take them to the
entrance to the park to a ranger. And the first
transmission that I heard it was from the rangers trying
(06:47):
to you know, they're basically calling nine to one one
to get all agencies involved, because we know we've got
some parents hurt. We've got two girls, you know, that
are on their own say their parents are hurt. Maybe
one of them was not sure, maybe one stabbed, and
so that's what they went to. And as the police
and other people are coming together, it was kind of
(07:09):
weird listening to the transmissions because they're all identifying themselves
with what county they're from or what agency they're from,
which is always coded in numbers.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
And there was one.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Guy in particular that was in the park and he
was talking to somebody else on their radio. They were
on there's a lower end and an upper end of
the trail, and he said, well, let's you know. They
were asking where do you want us to go, and
he said, y'all take the lower end. We'll come up
this way. And as they're searching because they don't know
(07:40):
the girls didn't know exactly where they came from. You know,
the seven year old nine year old were found in
the park alone. So as they're hiking in to try
to find out, it's really difficult to imagine. And one
of the searchers says, I hear screaming. I hear somebody
screaming for help, and we're towards the end of the trail,
and the guy says, I hear it too, And by
(08:03):
the time they get to the bottom, they find the bodies.
So the bodies of the parents now, of the nine
year old and seven year old. And we're not talking
old people here, we're talking young, A young couple. Well,
forty one and forty three sounds young to me, Yeah,
it does to me too. But you mentioned the horror
(08:24):
of the nine year old, the little girls, and they
have an older child that was not with them. I
believe she's a teen, but she wasn't there, and thankfully so,
because she's going to have to be the rock for
the nine year old and the seven year old as
they grow up without their parents. Now, but Joe, this
is an ambush. Two people are four people, two adults,
(08:50):
two children are walking on a trail.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
A guy.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
A guy comes out of the woods somewhere with a
knife and attacks the husband clinton brink.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
He attacks him first.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Mom courageously grabs the girls and takes off, running back
towards where their car was parked. She gets them far
enough away and tells them, y'all keep running for help.
Run towards the car, run for help. I'm gonna go
back and help dad.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
This heroic mother.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Gets the girls to safety and goes back into what
she knows is horror. She knows her husband has been
attacked with deadly force, and she went back. Joe, all
I could think of is what an example of heroism.
(09:42):
She made sure the girls were safe and then she
went back. That's all we can hope for one another.
Take care of the kids first, then come back for me.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
You know, I was shocked when I heard, because I
got to tell you, I've never heard, at least in
recent history, I've never heard of a circumstance where you've
got children involved and one parent shuffles them off to
get them into a safe area and then runs. It's
(10:15):
almost like running into a burning house. And unfortunately, in
this case, it had the same level of lethality to
it because this mother who had secured her kids winds
up meeting the same fate as her husband. And you know,
(10:35):
you try to wrap your brain around the idea that
you're just and they're kind of new to the area.
From one of us ends, the whole family had moved
moved to a location that is not really that far
away from Devil's Den State Park, and they they're probably
exploring the area. I mean, you and I have had
to relocate multiple times in our adult life, and I
(10:59):
don't know about your experience specifically, but when Kimmy and
I would, you know, we'd have the kids, we'd go
kind of drive around and go see what the local
you know, what the local vibe was, what attractions are
around there. And we generally lived in rural areas for
most of our married life, and so there'd always be
like a park somewhere that might have a playground or
(11:22):
might have a camping area. We used to be really
big into camping. And you think about this, You're just
going out to explore this new area, you're playing on,
setting roots down in and you meet you meet this
demon that is out in the woods, just comes out
of nowhere, and I'm you know, I'm really thinking, was
(11:46):
this an opportunistic thing where he was just looking for
someone to kill like this couple, or was he hoping
that he would come across an adult, Now this is
really dark, an adult with a small child that he
(12:10):
he could have victimized in other ways. I'll put it
to you that way, and that you know, for him,
this opportunity presented itself and he just comes out like
a savage at that moment in time and starts ripping
them to tress Dad first. So you know that if
(12:30):
that's what is discovered here, Dave the mother is doubly heroic,
I think in the sense because Lord only knows what
he would have done with those two little girls had
they not been secured somewhere else. One of the most
(13:02):
difficult things about death investigation is trying to understand the
lay of the land, if you will. And there's I've
had I've had colleagues that were better at working cases
(13:24):
inside of structures. People don't really break it down this
way many times, but this is the truth. That were
better at working cases inside of structures, and I've had
other ones that were better at working cases outside, you know,
in you know, wild wooded areas, and it's a it
is David's. It's certainly a skill set. You want to
(13:47):
be all things to all people, but we can't be
all things to all people. That's one of the reasons
that for people that practice in forensics, when you see
shows like you know the Letters that will never be
mentioned in my classroom CSI. When you see the shows,
you have these amalgams of characters that that are doing
(14:09):
multiple jobs. That one of those shops would take twenty
years to perfect your craft, and can you imagine doing
multiple of them at that level. It's the same thing
with being a death investigare on seeing there, I mean
and lookt to You got to take whatever call or
whatever case comes up. You don't have a choice. It's
an indoor scene. That's the only work. It doesn't work
(14:31):
like that. But there are certain people that are just
better at it than other folks. They let me ask you,
they can understand and read the topography outside.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Perhaps that's kind of what I'm curious about, because when
you have a case like this, Joe, where to finish
off the fact that there was an ambush attack with
a knife, the husband Clinton is killed with a knife.
We assume and then you know, when his wife goes back,
she is also killed with a knife. The little girls
get away thankfully. Now the suspect here gets out of
(15:05):
the park, and you have the scene where the two
people have died or you know, we know they're dead now.
But as an investigator, as they arrive on scene, we
know they're concerned about where did the bad guy go?
But don't they have to protect everything about this area
where these bodies are found. Because a knife is hand
(15:27):
to hand combat. I mean, even if you stab somebody
wants or slash them, there's going to be falling down,
There's going to be others, there's gonna be multiple areas
that touch your body and blood and things like that.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Right, yeah, well said, and that's certainly a consideration. And listen,
everything outside. I want people to really hear me on this.
Everything outside, particularly in a wooded area, like in a
forested area like this, where you've got where you've got
you know these trails that run through and you've got
(15:59):
these beautiful because they're not going to go in there
cutting down trees. This is not like they're going to
harvest trees in here. This is for the purpose of beauty.
So you've probably got old growth that's in there. You've
got that real loamy soil. There's leaves that are nobody's
going through there, and raking leaves. They might blow off
the walk, you know, the trail, they might blow it
(16:19):
off in the fall, but you're going to have stacks
of leaves that are there. One of the first things
kind of that you look for. Particularly you mentioned this
idea of hand to hand mono and mono, you know,
kind of contact you're going to look there's something interesting
that happens. You'll see scuff marks and you see them
inside houses on like floors many times, particularly out in
(16:42):
the woods where you've got again I'll use the term loamy,
that kind of loamy soil. You can see where people
have made contact with the ground furiously and they're pushing,
and you'll see huge clumps of dirt that are pushed
in one direction. And if the underlying, like the top
layer of the leaves, that strata is pushed aside, you
(17:03):
can actually see shoe impressions in that loan. So you
have to you really I use this termalot. Forgive me,
but I pretend I'm in a minefield. When I'm out
there because everywhere you step there's a potential of and
you know, like footprints, just footprints themselves, they're so fragile,
(17:25):
you know, because you're looking at the tread that's there.
The smallest disruption can blow a specific identifier that's left
behind by the wear of the shoes. And the wear
of the shoes, the things that translate from those shoes
are like wear patterns. Do they walk on the inside
of the outside of their feet? Pronate soupin eate at
(17:47):
what's the level of wear on the shoes? Are they
new shoes? Because new shoes look different than old shoes.
That might be the same brand, but they're going to
look different. Here's another thing that will blow your mind.
With knife attacks, as we know very bloody affairs, Well,
if you're inside an apartment day, it's kind of easy
(18:11):
to pick up on blood droplets or blood deposition that's
done dynamically. But dude, you're talking about on the surface
of leaves. You know, you're on the surface of plants.
Say there's a patch of poison oak right there, which
is not beyond the pail in this and the leaves
(18:33):
it drops on there, Well, are you going to be
able to see that and understand what that is. Are
you going to consider that because you're so far outside
of your comfort zone many times when you're in these
environments and it's ever changing, and the worst thing that
can happen to you out in this environment for me
(18:54):
working outdoor scenes is the rumble of thunder in the distance.
So you're having to compete with mother nature. You've got
wind that blows through there, you've got rainstorms that come
through there, and then you've got people not knowing where
to put their feet. Yeah, yeah, many times I still don't,
(19:15):
and it's something you have to I say, still don't.
I don't go out as seen anymore. But you know,
you consider that, and oh, by the bye, you've got
a madman on the Loosese and you're going to have
to You're going to have to bring perhaps dogs through
that area that are going to try to catch a scent.
(19:38):
You've got you've got guys that are dog handlers. You've
got people that are on search teams. They're not forensic people,
and I'm not disparaging them. I'm just saying they're there.
The purpose right now is because I don't know how
many other people are occupying the space for all I know,
he's going to go to campsite to campsite and start
cutting people's throats. You've got to find this guy, and so,
(20:03):
you know, you try to do you try to do
this balancing act in your mind. Well, what's getting trumped here?
Is it the safety of the other occupants of the
park or is it the forensic evidence. Well, to me,
the safety of everybody far surpasses the forensic evidence. You
have to take as much care as you as you can.
(20:25):
And that concentric area where this horrible event took place,
that's the hub, the hub of the wheel, and everything
else radiates out from there. That's the way we would
work it if we were searching the area, but searching
the area for evidence. But that's the way you have
to work if you're doing a rescue operation, Dave.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
And now you've got blood everywhere again, back to the knife,
and you've got blood saturating and getting into the ground.
You've got every droplet of blood is evidence, and every
droplet of blood. We do know there was enough blood
by the suspect here at the scene they were able
to use that to help find him. And that's when
(21:06):
I was looking at this, I'm thinking, okay, because we
know that it was an ambush attack. We know that
the suspect attacked the demand first. Mom gets the two
girls away and comes back. So I'm wondering how long
that fight went on. You know, you know, Mom was
gone long enough to get the girls far enough away
that she didn't you know, she felt like she could
(21:27):
keep him safe. But then she went back to the
frat was her husband already dead, and this guy is
looking for her. I mean, I'm just kind of curious
as to what she went into and where they both
killed at the same spot or where they spread out,
because now you've got a crime scene that really does expand.
And you mentioned this, what's it like when you come
(21:50):
into a scene like that where the madman he might
be over there behind that big rock with a gun.
He might have a thirty guy six. Yeah, he stabbed
them over here, but he's sitting over here hunting deer
and your head is in his scope.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yeah, and he did that for this purpose, right, You
never know, and that's always you know, it's kind of
like the we had the uh god, the abortion clinic
bombing in Atlanta and had a lot of people, you know,
had people injured there at the clinic, and you know
(22:21):
they always preach this to you, secondary devices. Well, cops
rolled up and I think it was in the dumpster.
There was another device. It was it was Eric Rudolph
that did it, you know, the same guy that the
bombing yeah, in the in the Olympics, in the Olympics,
and he did another one in Birmingham, if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
I was on the air the morning that happened. Joe yeah,
and she was like blinded, I think the nurse. Yeah,
you know what it happened because it was one of
those things where click aside being a radio guy, okay,
doing a morning radio show. We were working with the
company now is known as iHeart and all of our
studios on the top of the mountain where we were
(23:01):
overlooking all of Birmingham, right, So when there was a
scene when they said it's you know here in the
five Points area, you'd actually look out the window and go, well,
there it is. Wow, And yeah, it was that close,
you know, to be able to see things. It was
an amazing view. But when that happened, you know, it's
it's so weird how stories get covered locally versus nationally. Yeah,
and anyway, but that was Baric Robert Rudolph.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Yeah, and so you can be drawn in like that
and you'll have hell to pay. So you don't know
what's wow, what's outside of what you can see. They
there's no telling how long this perpetrator spin in the woods, right,
He's got to perch a hide set up, and so
that's you know, if you're if you're if you're the
commander on the scene and you're trying to make sense
(23:46):
of it and determine where you're going to deploy everybody
to accomplish the task first trying to find this person
and securing the scene. You've got multiple elements that are
working here at the same time. It's a very very
dynamic kind of environment. And when you're trying to secure
(24:06):
the bodies as well. Here's something interesting. No one should
ever lull themselves into a sense of peace over somebody
being stabbed to death. This is a painful, painful death.
It is not quick, okay, contrary to what people might
(24:26):
have you say. It's not like, you know, in the movies,
somebody gets stuck in the chest, they clutch their chest,
they fall over and they're dead. It ain't like that okay,
because first off, there's no guarantee that the individual that
does the stabbing is going to hit a critical point.
They're going to hit a painful point. They might clip
you in the lung. Well, what's going to happen if
you're clipped in the lung with a knife that's been
(24:49):
pulled out and he's still stabbing you, Well, you're still
alive as long as your brain is still functioning. You're
still alive to a certain point. Now, blood loss will
take over that sort of thing, but you're struggling to live,
and Dave, I've gone out on scenes before where I've
had someone trying to get into a position where they
(25:13):
can breathe. It's not a position of comfort, it's a
position of trying to uptake oxygen because their long has
been and you can see you can see the remnant
of the blood that is like filled with air bubbles,
(25:36):
and that gives you an idea that this is a
kind of a frothy event where they're blowing out the blood,
they're expiating the blood onto the ground, and they're trying
to get into a position where they's you'll see them
where they have wallowed around in their own blood. You'll
see where they roll through loose soil. They'll have leaves
(26:00):
attached to their bodies. You can see that this was
in their death throw and it's one of the most
horrible things. It's a very power if you take a
picture of that, coupled with the surrounding area around their body,
it's a powerful image to present in court because pathologists
can get on stand and say, do you see all
this movement that would be consistent with somebody that is
(26:22):
struggling to try to survive, and then you double that,
you know, listen, I pray to the sweet Lord above
that this was quick. Okay, I truly do. I hope
that they did not, that they did not linger in
these circumstances. But if I were a betting man, I'd
(26:44):
say that this was not quick. I would say that
they lingered. I'd say that they suffered. There was an awareness.
So that's going to really disrupt the evidence. You know,
if you just think about we have the thing in
my friends, which I am not certified in bloodstained analysis, however,
(27:06):
I know enough to be kind of dangerous. One of
the things that you look for if you're carrying an
instrument like a knife Okay, you get these order for two?
Is this passive drips. So let's say you've got this
knife that is just coated in blood. You're trying to
beat feet to get away from the location. Depend upon
(27:28):
the pace at which you move, the blood is going
to present in different ways. Well, can you imagine walking
out into the woods and trying to find that those
dropolets of blood? You know, deer hunters, people that track animals,
they'll do that, you know, keeping Yeah, they'll shoot an animal.
Animal doesn't drop right there, They still have to go
(27:49):
out and find that animal, and they begin to look
for blood. Well, we're not talking about a bleeding animal now,
we're talking about an individual that has blood all over them.
They're carrying an instrument, and those passive little drops to
the naked eye are not easy to pick up on. Now,
the blood around the bodies is going to be striking,
(28:10):
you know, you'll see it. But when whichever way this
monster decided to leave these two poor helpless parents that
are trying to take up air oxygen just so they
can survive see those babies one more time, whichever direction
(28:30):
he headed off in the blood could point to where
he came to be so you have two individuals to parents,
(28:55):
a mom and a dad that have been butchered. I'm
not going to say in the wilderness, but let's face it,
it's it's an underpopulated area. You're you're looking to try
to solve this crime. But before you can get to
the point of collecting evidence in solving crimes, you've you've
(29:18):
got to get this wild animal in custody. You you've
got to track this individual. If it's just one person,
you know at the time they had no idea, I mean,
who who has the ability to do this? And you
know again it would be their motivation? Well why? Yeah,
I was trying not to say why, but.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
I know you hate the why work, but you know you.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Think about it and you think, well, what what in
the world would motivate them to do it? And do
they have any other plans? I think that that's that's
one of the scary things. You've got to get this
individual off the street, Dave, I was reflecting. You know,
you you had mentioned at one point in time that
the mom had gotten these kids in a safe place
(30:05):
and then went back, I think I said, back into
the fire. Kids ran until they couldn't hear mama screaming anymore, right,
and something struck me. I've had a reoccurrent dream throughout
my life where I was being chased, and it's the
(30:27):
most terrible dream. I think a lot of people have it,
the most terrible dream you can have. But this is real.
You've got these two babies that are running through the
woods trying to get to safety. Can you imagine the
fear of looking over your shoulder, your little legs are
running as fast, probably over uneven terrain, by the way,
(30:47):
trying to get to safety, not knowing where you're coming
from and not knowing where you're going. It's the stuff
of nightmares. Man.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
All they had was run towards where we at the car,
I think, and you know, we're still getting information about this,
but the first thing they're trying to do after they
locate the bodies who did it?
Speaker 2 (31:08):
And like you said, is it just one? What was
the plan?
Speaker 1 (31:11):
I mean?
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Was this nobody, just for no reason, attacks a family
of four on the trails out in the middle of
a state park without some kind of reason? Was the
goal to wipe out mom and dad and steal the kids?
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Is that? Who this guy is? That what he was
thinking of?
Speaker 1 (31:27):
I got to tell you, man, I got to tell you.
I'm you know I stated earlier, is he is he
just laying in wait looking for a target that has
a small child, Because I really want to know if
this guy's a pederasted. I want to know if he
he has an affinity for small children. And here he's
(31:50):
got he's got opportunity at two.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Here's your Paul Harvey. Yeah, yeah, remember the rest of
the story.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Oh yeah, I sure do. Well.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
Thankfully, there was a witness in the park that saw
this man running from the park and he had blood
on his face. Another witness sees the same guy getting
into a car. Now, the whole idea was to try
to find out what kind of car. You know, We've
got two dead people, two frightened children, and now we've
(32:19):
got a suspect who's already out of the park. He
is not in the park. He's not hunkered down somewhere
ready to take potshots of people, you know, in the area.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
He's gone.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
This is where investigators blow my mind at how from
the forensics Joe to the actual police work that goes
into it. Because they work hand in glove, and in
this particular case, they were able to determine early on
that the blood on his face and other areas as described, well,
(32:51):
there was his blood mixed in that fight.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
They were able to determine that somehow, and.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
That I'm wondering how that came about because I thought
all blood looked the same. How are you going to
tell that this is from the bad guy and this
is from I mean, are you blood typing right away?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
There's not a DNA kit on the run. How do
they do that so fast to determine.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
All hands on deck? Brother? Yeah, that's that's what I'm
telling you here. And they collected I'm imagining they collected
as much as much blood evidence at the scene as
they possibly could. And one of the first things that
(33:33):
they probably got a let's see, how can I say this?
One of the first indicators when they started examining those
samples that they had there may have been some commingling
of blood too. The trick is, can you separate us
two things out where? And we still don't know the origin,
(33:54):
you know, like whose blood is? Who's you know? At
this point we don't and you shouldn't to know that
that information at this point. But they were able to
determine that they had a sample from that scene that
didn't marry up with Mom and dad. They were able
(34:15):
and probably quite easily to do a profile on both
of them and understand, and then it's just a matter
of trying to eliminate everything that doesn't you know, walk
like a duck quack duck at that point, Tom pointing
back to a very And this is not like a
latent print man. This is very, very specific. We're talking
(34:39):
about in the millions and millions of odds here, all right.
So my question is I think they did mom and
dad fight back to the point where they drew blood
or did this monster injure themselves in the midst of this?
(35:00):
And that's you've explained to me.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
You've explained that many times. Show how the suspect will
hurt themselves with the knife, and I will hurt them.
I remember with the O. J. Simpson thing, I thought,
that's an awful small cut on his finger. Based on
what took place, I would expect to see more damage
than just one small cut on the guy's finger.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Yeah, and that may be what they're looking at.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
With this guy. But here's the rest of the story.
Now they identify that he's got a unique car. It's
a specific color and it's a sporty sedan. That was
kind of how they articulated this. And they're showing people
pictures and they identify this car as a Kia Stinger.
I don't know this car, but that's what it was, called,
(35:43):
the Kia Stinger, and it's black. So the first thing
they're doing, as they're i mean not first, they're doing
a lot of things. First thing, right, but one of
the detectives start looking for surveillance cameras, ring doorbell cameras
on the path leading to and from the park. You know,
you've got here's your entrance to the park, Here's where
his car was, Here's where we saw him take off.
(36:04):
So they get all the surveillance footage of all these
cameras and they identify here's the car. It's coming in,
it's coming out. They're able to get it down zeroed in.
The car was to face. He had actually used black
tape to change the marketing on it so you couldn't
tell that it was a Kia Stinger, and he changed
the license plates, so he did disguise his car a
(36:24):
little bit. But they were able to figure it out
enough using just basic good police work here. They were
able to get the camera angles and figure out what
kind of car it was. And then in this general area,
how many of these types of cars exist yep? And
how many are driven by a white male?
Speaker 1 (36:41):
And yeah, let me throw a word out to you
real quick, Okays a matter of fact, I'm going to
spell it out to you.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Go for you.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
This this actually is evidence of I in te n T.
As far as I'm concerned, if you're disguising a license
plate and an identifier on a car brand, make like
this with black tape, you're showing up with intent. Absolutely,
Lord Dave, think Okay, it's horrible enough that you've got
(37:11):
this beast a rising out of the forest. He's a
rising out of the forest, and he is purposed. I
submit to you once again, I wonder if he has
an attraction to children. That's really what That's really what
I'm thinking. Man. I gotta tell you.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
Well, you're dead on accurate on that one. And I
would like to go to the full my cousin Vinny
on that one, but I would ignore that.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
For those of you who know the movie, you know
what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Yes, in this particular case show they were able to
identify the person that was probably driving this type of vehicle.
They were able to narrow it down using just good
police work. They actually track him to a place that
you started with on the show today about getting his haircut.
Is he trying to disguise his look? We don't know
what he was acting actually doing, but police were able
(38:02):
to They find his car in this parking lot of
a hair salon, and they already know who he is.
They know who their suspect is, and they go in
to get him and they hey, we're looking for the
owner of this car. It's got to be moved. It's
balking some They were so cool about it. This guy,
by the way, Joe, you talking about an intent, Well,
he had called several different places trying to get an
(38:24):
appointment to get his hair done, but nobody would book
it without a name, and he wouldn't give him a name. Now, yeah,
that's we've got a madman on the loose in the area,
and we've got a guy wanting his haircut, but he
won't tell us his name. Little hint here, right, And
so when they come in and he says, oh, yeah,
that's my car, And so he goes out there and
they're talking to him, right, and they're kind of catching
(38:45):
him off guard, acting like it's not a big deal,
just move it. And then it's like, well, you know,
we got to check your ID.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
You know, that's normal.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
They notice cuts on his hands, and they go into
the car to get his license and lo and behold,
they see what appears to be blood. They didn't say
we saw blood, They say we saw something that had
the consistency and color we would expect.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
It looked like it might be could be maybe blood.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Those individuals have been taught well, yes, you're not supposed
to call it blood. They did here, so it could
be consistent with blood, yes, and it was yeah, And
you know, again, it's going to be interesting to begin
to learn about these injuries on the hand and what
(39:29):
do they match up to, because in order to have
an injury, you have to have an instrument whether it's
somebody else's hand, whether somebody else's fingernails, whether it is
a knife or you know, I don't know, a garden rake,
it doesn't matter. You have to have an instrumentality in
order to generate an injury. And if they're calling it cuts,
(39:52):
and again, back to what you'd said, earlier, Dave. They
they haven't released all of the data yet. But I
got to tell you, man, this is what we refer
to I think between you because you and I have
covered cases where we had a lot less. This case
is evidence rich. I mean, this is a really heavily
deepended upon forensics case. Dave. What's this guy's name, by
(40:16):
the way.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
I don't really want to say it out loud, because
I know we're going to have to say it a bunch.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Andrew McGann. He's twenty eight year old.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
And Joe. He's an elementary school teacher. Andrew mcgahann has
he's twenty eight. He's already been in four different school systems,
five different schools, and had switched again. And the reason
he had to keep moving is cause eight complaints from
parents about him being touchy feely with the kids. Girls
(40:47):
in particular. He even would tickle them, which there's actually
a fetish about tickling.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
I can't remember the name of it. Him.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
Yeah, well we can tell you and I spend way
too much time around Bethany.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
No, I'm coming from Karen.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
In some of these cases.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
Well, he's one. He's exactly what you thought he was.
Now whether he was trying to separate the girls, I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
I would.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
I'm kind of thinking that he had come on glued
and saw the parents. Maybe he only saw one of
the girls. I don't know, But whatever happened, he did
not expect the fight he got. He just, you know what,
he set up to kill the wrong people, because Dad
fought the man long enough that Mom could get the
girls away, and Mom didn't leave him alone. She went
(41:31):
back to try to save his life and bought the
girls even more time. Parents did what we would hope
as parents we would all do. We would put ourselves
between mad man and life for our children, and they did.
Finding out the guy has been suspended from his job,
where he goes allowed to resign is going to be
a problem for the school systems because he had never
(41:54):
actually been fired Joe, but he mysteriously had a number
of jobs in a very short window of time, all
with little children.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Yeah. Well, and here's the other thing. He's floated between
three states. You know. He he started out in Oklahoma.
I think he was actually a graduate of OSHU. He
had he had one entry that said go pokes, which
is there, you know, uh like cow polks. That's their
their you know mascot. He you know, drifts from there
(42:25):
down into Texas. I think he may have been in
Plano at one point, Tom and all of a sudden
he's going to land in in uh in Arkansas and
there's one you know, he had applied in one one
jurisdiction or one district, and they said that he's not suited.
Now I don't know what that means. They had apparently
(42:46):
done there, because you know, you can only migrate around
to these places so many times before, you know, particularly
now in the world of social media and these people
that hire, hire and fire people. If you've got a
social media platform out there, if your name is mentioned
and what you had said is key here, I wonder
(43:06):
how many parents in these other locations went on said
this guy and I'm imitating a keyboard right now, is creepy.
He doesn't need to be around kids. Well, maybe in
a search this pops up and the people in the
one jurisdiction you notice that, Well, he probably is not
something we somebody we'd want to bring on board. It's
(43:30):
one of those chicken or the egg scenarios. Did he
did he or let's say, is this a chicken or
the egg scenario. Even at a young age, would somebody
like him, maybe similar to him, decide that I'm going
to go into teaching because that'll put me near kids,
(43:53):
or is this something that evolved over a period of
time where they had an awareness that, oh, I'm going
to have access to kids, think I'll tickle them, you know.
I think he had asked, allegedly had asked one or
told one of the young girls he wishes that she
could be his girlfriend. And he's Dave, he's teaching elementary
(44:16):
as age kids.
Speaker 3 (44:18):
Yep, there's actually said yeah, actually said I wish I
could be your boyfriend. It's a lot different than saying
I wish you would be my girlfriend. He was telling
this little eight nine year old girl, I wish I
could be your boyfriend, hoping she would say, oh you can.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
Yeah, this is this is on another plane at this
point in time. I can tell you that the more
information that comes out about this guy, we're going to
find more about him. I think in Oklahoma, Texas, people
that he associated with in Oklahoma even while he was
(44:56):
in school, We're going to hear about more of these
interactions that he had with parents and students. Unfortunately, who
we will not be hearing from in the future are
going to be these two parents who were butchered, butchered
(45:17):
and left to die in this remote area, Kristen Brink
forty one, Clinton Brink forty three, leaving leaving behind three kids,
two of which witnessed this monster at work. We're going
(45:41):
to keep you updated on this case. I can promise
you that I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.
Quody diamonds, but Joseph's gotten more. My grandparents lived in Monroe, Louisiana.
I was actually born there. I've got half my family's
up in North Louisiana. The other halse do in South Louisiana.
And some of my fondest remembrances were hanging out with
(00:21):
my grandpa on Saturday mornings. It was Saturday mornings were
from my I calling Papa, were for my Papa. Sunday
mornings for my Grandma. What made Saturday so special is
we did two things. We went to the sail barn
because he raised horses and mules, and then we went
(00:45):
to the barbershop, and it was a weekly event for him.
This man didn't go a week without getting a haircut.
Men of his generation did that. And what's so special
was it wasn't just the fact that you went to
the barbershop to get a haircut. It was the fact
that all the old guys just like Papa were in
there and guess what they were doing, swapping tails. And
(01:09):
I learned more sitting around with those older gentlemen, hanging out,
listening to my papa whole forth and listening to them
telling him he was full of it. It was a
grand time. But you know, the one thing remains with
my grandfather. His haircut always remained the same. When he
(01:32):
would go in there, he would look the same, except
his hair would be a little bit shorter, at least
until the next Saturday. But what if you had a
suspected double murderer walk in to a hair salon, not
so that he could chat, not so that he could reminisce,
(01:55):
not so that he could shoot the bull, but so
that he could change his appearance so no one would
know who he was. Today on Bodybags, we're going to
explore a most disturbing case of a double homicide that
was committed in front of two young children. I'm Joseph
(02:21):
Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. You know, Dave. Since
I was little, I had heard about Devil's Den in Arkansas.
I said that I lived in Monroe when I was little,
and it's right near the Arkansas border. My grandfather's people
(02:42):
were from Drew County, Arkansas, which is like Monaicello. It's
down in the southern part. But you know, my grandfather
had nephews that had worked in the what was it
called FDR set. These things up the workers, you know,
during the depression, where they would go out and they
(03:03):
would build build these projects w WPA. Is that what
it was? Work? Yeah, I think that's what it was.
And a couple of his nephews had worked up in
Devil's Den. It was actually a creation of the Roosevelt administration.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
And creating jobs for people who were out of work.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I never got to go there,
but I always heard about how beautiful it was. Particularly
they've got this gorgeous waterfall that it's up there. There's
a lot of caves. It's associated with Confederacy, particularly Confederate guerrillas.
There have been fights up there and all that sort
of stuff. Isolated area Man and the southern Ozark's Ozark
(03:46):
Mountain Range, and it sounds so peaceful. But Dave, I've
got to tell you, brother, what happened up there just
a few days ago is anything but peaceful. And it's
something that I know of. Certainly, two kids that were
(04:08):
there and another kid that was not there, they're going
to be left scarred for the rest of their lives.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Oh my gosh, Devil's Den State Park.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
I'm going to be honest with you, Joe, there's a
couple of things I avoid. Yeah, if you call something
Devil's Den, yeah, I'm not going. There's no need I don't.
I don't fence with the devil. And if I come
to in numbers, like when we have to number something,
I don't number six sixty six.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I R six six five sixty six seven. That's just me.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
So when something devilish happens in Devil's Den, hey man,
it just is.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
It's shocking to me.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
That this happened in such a way that the description
is this, well, you know it started. I went back
to hear the original or the initial transmission between the
officers and dispatch, because I wanted to know we were
hearing so many different things, so many different stories, because
it isn't a rural area. You had multiple different groups working.
(05:06):
You had the Sheriff's department, you had the Forestry Service,
you had police, state patrol. There are four or five
different agencies that all had something to do, and you
had at least the killing of two people that they thought,
but the first reports show because they came from two children,
all right, two little girls, a nine year old and
(05:28):
a seven year old are running through the park when
a couple of hikers run into them, and the girls say,
we need help, and they're trying to get The hikers
are trying to get what's going on from this nine
year old and seven year old, and they're not really
getting the full story because I don't know how you
describe something like that. I don't know how I would
(05:49):
describe it to somebody else, show much less a seven
or nine year old.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yeah no, And can you imagine trying to and you know,
and it's not like the hikers are necessarily train first responders,
right naturally, they're they're relaxing, doing the train to help
some kids. Yeah no, And this is this is truly
a hiking area. It's got trails that there's actually an
old abandoned city there. Wow, that kind of vanished. The
(06:15):
only thing that remains of the old I say city
little village is the graveyard and the foundation of the homes.
And I think it was wiped out by flood back
in the eighteen nineties.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
If you could have been the mud flood to got
rid of the tartarians at any rate, though, Joe, here's
the thing. You've got a nine year old and a
seven year old. They're about a half mile inside the
camp on a trail when two hikers find out, okay,
your parents are hurt. So they take them to the
entrance to the park to a ranger. And the first
transmission that I heard it was from the rangers trying
(06:47):
to you know, they're basically calling nine to one one
to get all agencies involved, because we know we've got
some parents hurt. We've got two girls, you know, that
are on their own say their parents are hurt. Maybe
one of them was not sure, maybe one stabbed, and
so that's what they went to. And as the police
and other people are coming together, it was kind of
(07:09):
weird listening to the transmissions because they're all identifying themselves
with what county they're from or what agency they're from,
which is always coded in numbers.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
And there was one.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Guy in particular that was in the park and he
was talking to somebody else on their radio. They were
on there's a lower end and an upper end of
the trail, and he said, well, let's you know. They
were asking where do you want us to go, and
he said, y'all take the lower end. We'll come up
this way. And as they're searching because they don't know
(07:40):
the girls didn't know exactly where they came from. You know,
the seven year old nine year old were found in
the park alone. So as they're hiking in to try
to find out, it's really difficult to imagine. And one
of the searchers says, I hear screaming. I hear somebody
screaming for help, and we're towards the end of the trail,
and the guy says, I hear it too, And by
(08:03):
the time they get to the bottom, they find the bodies.
So the bodies of the parents now, of the nine
year old and seven year old. And we're not talking
old people here, we're talking young, A young couple. Well,
forty one and forty three sounds young to me, Yeah,
it does to me too. But you mentioned the horror
(08:24):
of the nine year old, the little girls, and they
have an older child that was not with them. I
believe she's a teen, but she wasn't there, and thankfully so,
because she's going to have to be the rock for
the nine year old and the seven year old as
they grow up without their parents. Now, but Joe, this
is an ambush. Two people are four people, two adults,
(08:50):
two children are walking on a trail.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
A guy.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
A guy comes out of the woods somewhere with a
knife and attacks the husband clinton brink.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
He attacks him first.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Mom courageously grabs the girls and takes off, running back
towards where their car was parked. She gets them far
enough away and tells them, y'all keep running for help.
Run towards the car, run for help. I'm gonna go
back and help dad.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
This heroic mother.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Gets the girls to safety and goes back into what
she knows is horror. She knows her husband has been
attacked with deadly force, and she went back. Joe, all
I could think of is what an example of heroism.
(09:42):
She made sure the girls were safe and then she
went back. That's all we can hope for one another.
Take care of the kids first, then come back for me.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
You know, I was shocked when I heard, because I
got to tell you, I've never heard, at least in
recent history, I've never heard of a circumstance where you've
got children involved and one parent shuffles them off to
get them into a safe area and then runs. It's
(10:15):
almost like running into a burning house. And unfortunately, in
this case, it had the same level of lethality to
it because this mother who had secured her kids winds
up meeting the same fate as her husband. And you know,
(10:35):
you try to wrap your brain around the idea that
you're just and they're kind of new to the area.
From one of us ends, the whole family had moved
moved to a location that is not really that far
away from Devil's Den State Park, and they they're probably
exploring the area. I mean, you and I have had
to relocate multiple times in our adult life, and I
(10:59):
don't know about your experience specifically, but when Kimmy and
I would, you know, we'd have the kids, we'd go
kind of drive around and go see what the local
you know, what the local vibe was, what attractions are
around there. And we generally lived in rural areas for
most of our married life, and so there'd always be
like a park somewhere that might have a playground or
(11:22):
might have a camping area. We used to be really
big into camping. And you think about this, You're just
going out to explore this new area, you're playing on,
setting roots down in and you meet you meet this
demon that is out in the woods, just comes out
of nowhere, and I'm you know, I'm really thinking, was
(11:46):
this an opportunistic thing where he was just looking for
someone to kill like this couple, or was he hoping
that he would come across an adult, Now this is
really dark, an adult with a small child that he
(12:10):
he could have victimized in other ways. I'll put it
to you that way, and that you know, for him,
this opportunity presented itself and he just comes out like
a savage at that moment in time and starts ripping
them to tress Dad first. So you know that if
(12:30):
that's what is discovered here, Dave the mother is doubly heroic,
I think in the sense because Lord only knows what
he would have done with those two little girls had
they not been secured somewhere else. One of the most
(13:02):
difficult things about death investigation is trying to understand the
lay of the land, if you will. And there's I've
had I've had colleagues that were better at working cases
(13:24):
inside of structures. People don't really break it down this
way many times, but this is the truth. That were
better at working cases inside of structures, and I've had
other ones that were better at working cases outside, you know,
in you know, wild wooded areas, and it's a it
is David's. It's certainly a skill set. You want to
(13:47):
be all things to all people, but we can't be
all things to all people. That's one of the reasons
that for people that practice in forensics, when you see
shows like you know the Letters that will never be
mentioned in my classroom CSI. When you see the shows,
you have these amalgams of characters that that are doing
(14:09):
multiple jobs. That one of those shops would take twenty
years to perfect your craft, and can you imagine doing
multiple of them at that level. It's the same thing
with being a death investigare on seeing there, I mean
and lookt to You got to take whatever call or
whatever case comes up. You don't have a choice. It's
an indoor scene. That's the only work. It doesn't work
(14:31):
like that. But there are certain people that are just
better at it than other folks. They let me ask you,
they can understand and read the topography outside.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Perhaps that's kind of what I'm curious about, because when
you have a case like this, Joe, where to finish
off the fact that there was an ambush attack with
a knife, the husband Clinton is killed with a knife.
We assume and then you know, when his wife goes back,
she is also killed with a knife. The little girls
get away thankfully. Now the suspect here gets out of
(15:05):
the park, and you have the scene where the two
people have died or you know, we know they're dead now.
But as an investigator, as they arrive on scene, we
know they're concerned about where did the bad guy go?
But don't they have to protect everything about this area
where these bodies are found. Because a knife is hand
(15:27):
to hand combat. I mean, even if you stab somebody
wants or slash them, there's going to be falling down,
There's going to be others, there's gonna be multiple areas
that touch your body and blood and things like that.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Right, yeah, well said, and that's certainly a consideration. And listen,
everything outside. I want people to really hear me on this.
Everything outside, particularly in a wooded area, like in a
forested area like this, where you've got where you've got
you know these trails that run through and you've got
(15:59):
these beautiful because they're not going to go in there
cutting down trees. This is not like they're going to
harvest trees in here. This is for the purpose of beauty.
So you've probably got old growth that's in there. You've
got that real loamy soil. There's leaves that are nobody's
going through there, and raking leaves. They might blow off
the walk, you know, the trail, they might blow it
(16:19):
off in the fall, but you're going to have stacks
of leaves that are there. One of the first things
kind of that you look for. Particularly you mentioned this
idea of hand to hand mono and mono, you know,
kind of contact you're going to look there's something interesting
that happens. You'll see scuff marks and you see them
inside houses on like floors many times, particularly out in
(16:42):
the woods where you've got again I'll use the term loamy,
that kind of loamy soil. You can see where people
have made contact with the ground furiously and they're pushing,
and you'll see huge clumps of dirt that are pushed
in one direction. And if the underlying, like the top
layer of the leaves, that strata is pushed aside, you
(17:03):
can actually see shoe impressions in that loan. So you
have to you really I use this termalot. Forgive me,
but I pretend I'm in a minefield. When I'm out
there because everywhere you step there's a potential of and
you know, like footprints, just footprints themselves, they're so fragile,
(17:25):
you know, because you're looking at the tread that's there.
The smallest disruption can blow a specific identifier that's left
behind by the wear of the shoes. And the wear
of the shoes, the things that translate from those shoes
are like wear patterns. Do they walk on the inside
of the outside of their feet? Pronate soupin eate at
(17:47):
what's the level of wear on the shoes? Are they
new shoes? Because new shoes look different than old shoes.
That might be the same brand, but they're going to
look different. Here's another thing that will blow your mind.
With knife attacks, as we know very bloody affairs, Well,
if you're inside an apartment day, it's kind of easy
(18:11):
to pick up on blood droplets or blood deposition that's
done dynamically. But dude, you're talking about on the surface
of leaves. You know, you're on the surface of plants.
Say there's a patch of poison oak right there, which
is not beyond the pail in this and the leaves
(18:33):
it drops on there, Well, are you going to be
able to see that and understand what that is. Are
you going to consider that because you're so far outside
of your comfort zone many times when you're in these
environments and it's ever changing, and the worst thing that
can happen to you out in this environment for me
(18:54):
working outdoor scenes is the rumble of thunder in the distance.
So you're having to compete with mother nature. You've got
wind that blows through there, you've got rainstorms that come
through there, and then you've got people not knowing where
to put their feet. Yeah, yeah, many times I still don't,
(19:15):
and it's something you have to I say, still don't.
I don't go out as seen anymore. But you know,
you consider that, and oh, by the bye, you've got
a madman on the Loosese and you're going to have
to You're going to have to bring perhaps dogs through
that area that are going to try to catch a scent.
(19:38):
You've got you've got guys that are dog handlers. You've
got people that are on search teams. They're not forensic people,
and I'm not disparaging them. I'm just saying they're there.
The purpose right now is because I don't know how
many other people are occupying the space for all I know,
he's going to go to campsite to campsite and start
cutting people's throats. You've got to find this guy, and so,
(20:03):
you know, you try to do you try to do
this balancing act in your mind. Well, what's getting trumped here?
Is it the safety of the other occupants of the
park or is it the forensic evidence. Well, to me,
the safety of everybody far surpasses the forensic evidence. You
have to take as much care as you as you can.
(20:25):
And that concentric area where this horrible event took place,
that's the hub, the hub of the wheel, and everything
else radiates out from there. That's the way we would
work it if we were searching the area, but searching
the area for evidence. But that's the way you have
to work if you're doing a rescue operation, Dave.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
And now you've got blood everywhere again, back to the knife,
and you've got blood saturating and getting into the ground.
You've got every droplet of blood is evidence, and every
droplet of blood. We do know there was enough blood
by the suspect here at the scene they were able
to use that to help find him. And that's when
(21:06):
I was looking at this, I'm thinking, okay, because we
know that it was an ambush attack. We know that
the suspect attacked the demand first. Mom gets the two
girls away and comes back. So I'm wondering how long
that fight went on. You know, you know, Mom was
gone long enough to get the girls far enough away
that she didn't you know, she felt like she could
(21:27):
keep him safe. But then she went back to the
frat was her husband already dead, and this guy is
looking for her. I mean, I'm just kind of curious
as to what she went into and where they both
killed at the same spot or where they spread out,
because now you've got a crime scene that really does expand.
And you mentioned this, what's it like when you come
(21:50):
into a scene like that where the madman he might
be over there behind that big rock with a gun.
He might have a thirty guy six. Yeah, he stabbed
them over here, but he's sitting over here hunting deer
and your head is in his scope.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yeah, and he did that for this purpose, right, You
never know, and that's always you know, it's kind of
like the we had the uh god, the abortion clinic
bombing in Atlanta and had a lot of people, you know,
had people injured there at the clinic, and you know
(22:21):
they always preach this to you, secondary devices. Well, cops
rolled up and I think it was in the dumpster.
There was another device. It was it was Eric Rudolph
that did it, you know, the same guy that the
bombing yeah, in the in the Olympics, in the Olympics,
and he did another one in Birmingham, if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
I was on the air the morning that happened. Joe yeah,
and she was like blinded, I think the nurse. Yeah,
you know what it happened because it was one of
those things where click aside being a radio guy, okay,
doing a morning radio show. We were working with the
company now is known as iHeart and all of our
studios on the top of the mountain where we were
(23:01):
overlooking all of Birmingham, right, So when there was a
scene when they said it's you know here in the
five Points area, you'd actually look out the window and go, well,
there it is. Wow, And yeah, it was that close,
you know, to be able to see things. It was
an amazing view. But when that happened, you know, it's
it's so weird how stories get covered locally versus nationally. Yeah,
and anyway, but that was Baric Robert Rudolph.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Yeah, and so you can be drawn in like that
and you'll have hell to pay. So you don't know
what's wow, what's outside of what you can see. They
there's no telling how long this perpetrator spin in the woods, right,
He's got to perch a hide set up, and so
that's you know, if you're if you're if you're the
commander on the scene and you're trying to make sense
(23:46):
of it and determine where you're going to deploy everybody
to accomplish the task first trying to find this person
and securing the scene. You've got multiple elements that are
working here at the same time. It's a very very
dynamic kind of environment. And when you're trying to secure
(24:06):
the bodies as well. Here's something interesting. No one should
ever lull themselves into a sense of peace over somebody
being stabbed to death. This is a painful, painful death.
It is not quick, okay, contrary to what people might
(24:26):
have you say. It's not like, you know, in the movies,
somebody gets stuck in the chest, they clutch their chest,
they fall over and they're dead. It ain't like that okay,
because first off, there's no guarantee that the individual that
does the stabbing is going to hit a critical point.
They're going to hit a painful point. They might clip
you in the lung. Well, what's going to happen if
you're clipped in the lung with a knife that's been
(24:49):
pulled out and he's still stabbing you, Well, you're still
alive as long as your brain is still functioning. You're
still alive to a certain point. Now, blood loss will
take over that sort of thing, but you're struggling to live,
and Dave, I've gone out on scenes before where I've
had someone trying to get into a position where they
(25:13):
can breathe. It's not a position of comfort, it's a
position of trying to uptake oxygen because their long has
been and you can see you can see the remnant
of the blood that is like filled with air bubbles,
(25:36):
and that gives you an idea that this is a
kind of a frothy event where they're blowing out the blood,
they're expiating the blood onto the ground, and they're trying
to get into a position where they's you'll see them
where they have wallowed around in their own blood. You'll
see where they roll through loose soil. They'll have leaves
(26:00):
attached to their bodies. You can see that this was
in their death throw and it's one of the most
horrible things. It's a very power if you take a
picture of that, coupled with the surrounding area around their body,
it's a powerful image to present in court because pathologists
can get on stand and say, do you see all
this movement that would be consistent with somebody that is
(26:22):
struggling to try to survive, and then you double that,
you know, listen, I pray to the sweet Lord above
that this was quick. Okay, I truly do. I hope
that they did not, that they did not linger in
these circumstances. But if I were a betting man, I'd
(26:44):
say that this was not quick. I would say that
they lingered. I'd say that they suffered. There was an awareness.
So that's going to really disrupt the evidence. You know,
if you just think about we have the thing in
my friends, which I am not certified in bloodstained analysis, however,
(27:06):
I know enough to be kind of dangerous. One of
the things that you look for if you're carrying an
instrument like a knife Okay, you get these order for two?
Is this passive drips. So let's say you've got this
knife that is just coated in blood. You're trying to
beat feet to get away from the location. Depend upon
(27:28):
the pace at which you move, the blood is going
to present in different ways. Well, can you imagine walking
out into the woods and trying to find that those
dropolets of blood? You know, deer hunters, people that track animals,
they'll do that, you know, keeping Yeah, they'll shoot an animal.
Animal doesn't drop right there, They still have to go
(27:49):
out and find that animal, and they begin to look
for blood. Well, we're not talking about a bleeding animal now,
we're talking about an individual that has blood all over them.
They're carrying an instrument, and those passive little drops to
the naked eye are not easy to pick up on. Now,
the blood around the bodies is going to be striking,
(28:10):
you know, you'll see it. But when whichever way this
monster decided to leave these two poor helpless parents that
are trying to take up air oxygen just so they
can survive see those babies one more time, whichever direction
(28:30):
he headed off in the blood could point to where
he came to be so you have two individuals to parents,
(28:55):
a mom and a dad that have been butchered. I'm
not going to say in the wilderness, but let's face it,
it's it's an underpopulated area. You're you're looking to try
to solve this crime. But before you can get to
the point of collecting evidence in solving crimes, you've you've
(29:18):
got to get this wild animal in custody. You you've
got to track this individual. If it's just one person,
you know at the time they had no idea, I mean,
who who has the ability to do this? And you
know again it would be their motivation? Well why? Yeah,
I was trying not to say why, but.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
I know you hate the why work, but you know you.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Think about it and you think, well, what what in
the world would motivate them to do it? And do
they have any other plans? I think that that's that's
one of the scary things. You've got to get this
individual off the street, Dave, I was reflecting. You know,
you you had mentioned at one point in time that
the mom had gotten these kids in a safe place
(30:05):
and then went back, I think I said, back into
the fire. Kids ran until they couldn't hear mama screaming anymore, right,
and something struck me. I've had a reoccurrent dream throughout
my life where I was being chased, and it's the
(30:27):
most terrible dream. I think a lot of people have it,
the most terrible dream you can have. But this is real.
You've got these two babies that are running through the
woods trying to get to safety. Can you imagine the
fear of looking over your shoulder, your little legs are
running as fast, probably over uneven terrain, by the way,
(30:47):
trying to get to safety, not knowing where you're coming
from and not knowing where you're going. It's the stuff
of nightmares. Man.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
All they had was run towards where we at the car,
I think, and you know, we're still getting information about this,
but the first thing they're trying to do after they
locate the bodies who did it?
Speaker 2 (31:08):
And like you said, is it just one? What was
the plan?
Speaker 1 (31:11):
I mean?
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Was this nobody, just for no reason, attacks a family
of four on the trails out in the middle of
a state park without some kind of reason? Was the
goal to wipe out mom and dad and steal the kids?
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Is that? Who this guy is? That what he was
thinking of?
Speaker 1 (31:27):
I got to tell you, man, I got to tell you.
I'm you know I stated earlier, is he is he
just laying in wait looking for a target that has
a small child, Because I really want to know if
this guy's a pederasted. I want to know if he
he has an affinity for small children. And here he's
(31:50):
got he's got opportunity at two.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Here's your Paul Harvey. Yeah, yeah, remember the rest of
the story.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Oh yeah, I sure do. Well.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
Thankfully, there was a witness in the park that saw
this man running from the park and he had blood
on his face. Another witness sees the same guy getting
into a car. Now, the whole idea was to try
to find out what kind of car. You know, We've
got two dead people, two frightened children, and now we've
(32:19):
got a suspect who's already out of the park. He
is not in the park. He's not hunkered down somewhere
ready to take potshots of people, you know, in the area.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
He's gone.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
This is where investigators blow my mind at how from
the forensics Joe to the actual police work that goes
into it. Because they work hand in glove, and in
this particular case, they were able to determine early on
that the blood on his face and other areas as described, well,
(32:51):
there was his blood mixed in that fight.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
They were able to determine that somehow, and.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
That I'm wondering how that came about because I thought
all blood looked the same. How are you going to
tell that this is from the bad guy and this
is from I mean, are you blood typing right away?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
There's not a DNA kit on the run. How do
they do that so fast to determine.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
All hands on deck? Brother? Yeah, that's that's what I'm
telling you here. And they collected I'm imagining they collected
as much as much blood evidence at the scene as
they possibly could. And one of the first things that
(33:33):
they probably got a let's see, how can I say this?
One of the first indicators when they started examining those
samples that they had there may have been some commingling
of blood too. The trick is, can you separate us
two things out where? And we still don't know the origin,
(33:54):
you know, like whose blood is? Who's you know? At
this point we don't and you shouldn't to know that
that information at this point. But they were able to
determine that they had a sample from that scene that
didn't marry up with Mom and dad. They were able
(34:15):
and probably quite easily to do a profile on both
of them and understand, and then it's just a matter
of trying to eliminate everything that doesn't you know, walk
like a duck quack duck at that point, Tom pointing
back to a very And this is not like a
latent print man. This is very, very specific. We're talking
(34:39):
about in the millions and millions of odds here, all right.
So my question is I think they did mom and
dad fight back to the point where they drew blood
or did this monster injure themselves in the midst of this?
(35:00):
And that's you've explained to me.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
You've explained that many times. Show how the suspect will
hurt themselves with the knife, and I will hurt them.
I remember with the O. J. Simpson thing, I thought,
that's an awful small cut on his finger. Based on
what took place, I would expect to see more damage
than just one small cut on the guy's finger.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Yeah, and that may be what they're looking at.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
With this guy. But here's the rest of the story.
Now they identify that he's got a unique car. It's
a specific color and it's a sporty sedan. That was
kind of how they articulated this. And they're showing people
pictures and they identify this car as a Kia Stinger.
I don't know this car, but that's what it was, called,
(35:43):
the Kia Stinger, and it's black. So the first thing
they're doing, as they're i mean not first, they're doing
a lot of things. First thing, right, but one of
the detectives start looking for surveillance cameras, ring doorbell cameras
on the path leading to and from the park. You know,
you've got here's your entrance to the park, Here's where
his car was, Here's where we saw him take off.
(36:04):
So they get all the surveillance footage of all these
cameras and they identify here's the car. It's coming in,
it's coming out. They're able to get it down zeroed in.
The car was to face. He had actually used black
tape to change the marketing on it so you couldn't
tell that it was a Kia Stinger, and he changed
the license plates, so he did disguise his car a
(36:24):
little bit. But they were able to figure it out
enough using just basic good police work here. They were
able to get the camera angles and figure out what
kind of car it was. And then in this general area,
how many of these types of cars exist yep? And
how many are driven by a white male?
Speaker 1 (36:41):
And yeah, let me throw a word out to you
real quick, Okays a matter of fact, I'm going to
spell it out to you.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Go for you.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
This this actually is evidence of I in te n T.
As far as I'm concerned, if you're disguising a license
plate and an identifier on a car brand, make like
this with black tape, you're showing up with intent. Absolutely,
Lord Dave, think Okay, it's horrible enough that you've got
(37:11):
this beast a rising out of the forest. He's a
rising out of the forest, and he is purposed. I
submit to you once again, I wonder if he has
an attraction to children. That's really what That's really what
I'm thinking. Man. I gotta tell you.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
Well, you're dead on accurate on that one. And I
would like to go to the full my cousin Vinny
on that one, but I would ignore that.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
For those of you who know the movie, you know
what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Yes, in this particular case show they were able to
identify the person that was probably driving this type of vehicle.
They were able to narrow it down using just good
police work. They actually track him to a place that
you started with on the show today about getting his haircut.
Is he trying to disguise his look? We don't know
what he was acting actually doing, but police were able
(38:02):
to They find his car in this parking lot of
a hair salon, and they already know who he is.
They know who their suspect is, and they go in
to get him and they hey, we're looking for the
owner of this car. It's got to be moved. It's
balking some They were so cool about it. This guy,
by the way, Joe, you talking about an intent, Well,
he had called several different places trying to get an
(38:24):
appointment to get his hair done, but nobody would book
it without a name, and he wouldn't give him a name. Now, yeah,
that's we've got a madman on the loose in the area,
and we've got a guy wanting his haircut, but he
won't tell us his name. Little hint here, right, And
so when they come in and he says, oh, yeah,
that's my car, And so he goes out there and
they're talking to him, right, and they're kind of catching
(38:45):
him off guard, acting like it's not a big deal,
just move it. And then it's like, well, you know,
we got to check your ID.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
You know, that's normal.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
They notice cuts on his hands, and they go into
the car to get his license and lo and behold,
they see what appears to be blood. They didn't say
we saw blood, They say we saw something that had
the consistency and color we would expect.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
It looked like it might be could be maybe blood.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Those individuals have been taught well, yes, you're not supposed
to call it blood. They did here, so it could
be consistent with blood, yes, and it was yeah, And
you know, again, it's going to be interesting to begin
to learn about these injuries on the hand and what
(39:29):
do they match up to, because in order to have
an injury, you have to have an instrument whether it's
somebody else's hand, whether somebody else's fingernails, whether it is
a knife or you know, I don't know, a garden rake,
it doesn't matter. You have to have an instrumentality in
order to generate an injury. And if they're calling it cuts,
(39:52):
and again, back to what you'd said, earlier, Dave. They
they haven't released all of the data yet. But I
got to tell you, man, this is what we refer
to I think between you because you and I have
covered cases where we had a lot less. This case
is evidence rich. I mean, this is a really heavily
deepended upon forensics case. Dave. What's this guy's name, by
(40:16):
the way.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
I don't really want to say it out loud, because
I know we're going to have to say it a bunch.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Andrew McGann. He's twenty eight year old.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
And Joe. He's an elementary school teacher. Andrew mcgahann has
he's twenty eight. He's already been in four different school systems,
five different schools, and had switched again. And the reason
he had to keep moving is cause eight complaints from
parents about him being touchy feely with the kids. Girls
(40:47):
in particular. He even would tickle them, which there's actually
a fetish about tickling.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
I can't remember the name of it. Him.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
Yeah, well we can tell you and I spend way
too much time around Bethany.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
No, I'm coming from Karen.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
In some of these cases.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
Well, he's one. He's exactly what you thought he was.
Now whether he was trying to separate the girls, I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
I would.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
I'm kind of thinking that he had come on glued
and saw the parents. Maybe he only saw one of
the girls. I don't know, But whatever happened, he did
not expect the fight he got. He just, you know what,
he set up to kill the wrong people, because Dad
fought the man long enough that Mom could get the
girls away, and Mom didn't leave him alone. She went
(41:31):
back to try to save his life and bought the
girls even more time. Parents did what we would hope
as parents we would all do. We would put ourselves
between mad man and life for our children, and they did.
Finding out the guy has been suspended from his job,
where he goes allowed to resign is going to be
a problem for the school systems because he had never
(41:54):
actually been fired Joe, but he mysteriously had a number
of jobs in a very short window of time, all
with little children.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Yeah. Well, and here's the other thing. He's floated between
three states. You know. He he started out in Oklahoma.
I think he was actually a graduate of OSHU. He
had he had one entry that said go pokes, which
is there, you know, uh like cow polks. That's their
their you know mascot. He you know, drifts from there
(42:25):
down into Texas. I think he may have been in
Plano at one point, Tom and all of a sudden
he's going to land in in uh in Arkansas and
there's one you know, he had applied in one one
jurisdiction or one district, and they said that he's not suited.
Now I don't know what that means. They had apparently
(42:46):
done there, because you know, you can only migrate around
to these places so many times before, you know, particularly
now in the world of social media and these people
that hire, hire and fire people. If you've got a
social media platform out there, if your name is mentioned
and what you had said is key here, I wonder
(43:06):
how many parents in these other locations went on said
this guy and I'm imitating a keyboard right now, is creepy.
He doesn't need to be around kids. Well, maybe in
a search this pops up and the people in the
one jurisdiction you notice that, Well, he probably is not
something we somebody we'd want to bring on board. It's
(43:30):
one of those chicken or the egg scenarios. Did he
did he or let's say, is this a chicken or
the egg scenario. Even at a young age, would somebody
like him, maybe similar to him, decide that I'm going
to go into teaching because that'll put me near kids,
(43:53):
or is this something that evolved over a period of
time where they had an awareness that, oh, I'm going
to have access to kids, think I'll tickle them, you know.
I think he had asked, allegedly had asked one or
told one of the young girls he wishes that she
could be his girlfriend. And he's Dave, he's teaching elementary
(44:16):
as age kids.
Speaker 3 (44:18):
Yep, there's actually said yeah, actually said I wish I
could be your boyfriend. It's a lot different than saying
I wish you would be my girlfriend. He was telling
this little eight nine year old girl, I wish I
could be your boyfriend, hoping she would say, oh you can.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
Yeah, this is this is on another plane at this
point in time. I can tell you that the more
information that comes out about this guy, we're going to
find more about him. I think in Oklahoma, Texas, people
that he associated with in Oklahoma even while he was
(44:56):
in school, We're going to hear about more of these
interactions that he had with parents and students. Unfortunately, who
we will not be hearing from in the future are
going to be these two parents who were butchered, butchered
(45:17):
and left to die in this remote area, Kristen Brink
forty one, Clinton Brink forty three, leaving leaving behind three kids,
two of which witnessed this monster at work. We're going
(45:41):
to keep you updated on this case. I can promise
you that I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.
Host
Joseph Scott Morgan
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