May 22, 2024 • 44 mins
On this episode of Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan, Joe is going to break with our regular format and take a look at a man who revolutionized the Medical legal death investigation field. He was famous as a “Celebrity Pathologist” but that doesn’t do the man justice. When others walk away from trouble, Dr. Cyril Wecht said, “Where is the brain of JFK?” Joseph Scott Morgan shares his thoughts on the passing of Dr. Cyril Wecht.
Transcript Highlights
00:00:18 Introduction from JFK movie
00:00:47 Talk about Dr. Cyril Wecht
00:04:06 Talk about passing of Werner Spitz
00:08:21 Discussion of JFK
00:11:37 Discussion of Dr. Wecht as Air Force Officer
00:14:45 Talk about Wecht running for political office
00:19:33 Discussion of Dr. Wecht from coroner’s office to medical examiner
00:24:16 Talk about Wecht didn’t play golf, life was his hobby
00:27:16 Discussion of Wecht getting sued for comments
00:31:36 Talk about Wecht discovers JFK brain is missing
00:35:02 Talk about destroying evidence to cover up a crime
00:38:34 Discussion of Dr. Cyril Wecht accomplishments
00:39:28 Discussion about over 42,000 Post-mortem exams
00:43:49 Joseph Scott Morgan share thoughts on Dr Wecht
I just want to take a moment and 1st off acknowledge his passing and certainly the wet family, the Duquesne family and all of his extended friends and colleagues. My deepest sympathies to them because he's a man. He is a man that Has impacted so many of us in the field of forensic science. He passed away peacefully on May 13th.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan back and to the
left back and to the left back and to the
left For many of us, we have heard those words
(00:39):
for years now. They first came into I guess our
lexicon when Oliver Stones movie JFK premiered several decades ago now.
But you know those those words did not come from
(01:02):
the pen of Oliver Stone, though Kevin Costner was uttering
them as Jim Garrison on film, that's not their point
of origin either. They originated from the mind of one
(01:24):
of the giants of forensic science. Today, we're going to
talk about the remarkable life of Sarah Wick. I'm Joseph
Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks Dave back in. Let's see.
(01:53):
Back in November, obviously, you and I taped one of
our most well received episodes of this podcast, and it
had to do with the assassination of our former president
(02:14):
John Kennedy, and that that story had occupied a time
and a place that you know for many of that
generation is now beginning to fade. But there's something that
had entered our lexicon as a result of the man
that we're going to be discussing today that will echo
(02:38):
through through time, I submit to you. And as a
matter of fact, it's not only has it been that
phrase as it been dramaticized from the perspective of Oliver
Stones movie, but actually had drifted over into Seinfeld. But
they did an entire episode involving Newman and Kraman, Yeah,
(02:58):
the the loogie magically, keithr and Andez Yeah, back into
the left. That's that's kind of how ingrained that is.
But you know, we we have to understand that that
originates from a person who occupied, uh, these these great
(03:20):
heights that very few have ever reached, both academically, professionally
and even and even people might be surprised to find
this out politically, and it came from doctor Cyril Weck.
And you know the reason I feel compelled, uh to
lay this down today is the fact that unfortunately, uh,
(03:45):
in the past week, UH, doctor Weck has passed on.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
And I can't believe we're having this conversation because what
are the odds that within two weeks, three weeks and
one another, we would we would lose ownership it and
we would lose Cyril Weck.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Amazing.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Yeah, two giants that have gone down now.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
And they were both very I mean, like Sarah Weck
was ninety three, Yeah, he was, and that was Gerni
Spittz was ninety four.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yeah. Yeah. They both kind of occupy that space and
and there's a connection between both of them and JFK.
Yeah didn't, Yeah, they did. And they were on the
same committee. I think. I think that Michael bod was
on the There was somebody else that I can't I
can't really recall, but you know, Sarah Weck was the
(04:35):
one dissenting voice out of that. Out of that group
of people, I think they all came to the conclusion
that the President's autopsy was botched. And to say that,
to say that his autopsy was botched is an insult
to all things that have been botched through the through
all of human history. Out of all of the autopsies
(04:56):
that could have been botched, JFK's was botched by rank amateurs.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
If that doesn't tell you something's wrong, Okay, And I
mean this in the nicest way I can. Whether you
believe that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone and shot the
president from behind from the third floor of the Texas
school Book Depository as he went through Dealey Plaza, or
if you believe something else. We as the American people,
(05:26):
deserve to know the truth. And they prevented that from
happening and started breaking the law immediately. And that's a
major problem for people like me. When they took the body,
they being whatever powers that be Lyndon Baines Johnson at
the top. When they stole, kidnapped the body of the president,
(05:49):
the former president, and took him back to Washington, D C.
They broke a law. Yes, they broke multiple laws in
what they did. And they being again whoever orchestrated this
whole thing. And then the cover up. The cover up
began in Dallas and ends in Washington, D C. And
all these years later, we still don't know what happened.
But Sarah Wack had the guts to stand up and say,
(06:12):
I used to believe the Warring Commission until I looked
at the facts.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yeah, And you said guts, and you're absolutely right. Can
you imagine, you know, there's a lot of people, you know,
I think that that think that that think that they
that think that they can be brave, and and people
throw around the term bravery a lot nowadays. You know,
I think everybody thinks that they're Audie Murphy h and
(06:39):
they're not. I hate to inform you you're not. Sarah Weck.
Is this person that stood by many accounts alone. Ye,
he was that lone voice crying out in the wilderness.
And he did it for years and years. You know,
you know, Dave, this is interesting. I've actually been present
(07:01):
he he would he would go and do presentations where
he would bring up audience members. This is where this
thing originated with Seinfeld and I think with JFK as well,
back going back to the movie where he would pull
people out of the audience. They actually did this in
the film where they have the people seated behind one
(07:24):
another and as if they're riding in the limo and
he's got this rod that's showing the trajectory. That's a
real thing. And he still did it. He was still
doing this right up till recently when he would travel around.
He's done it. He did it. I think it was
was it last year or the year before he did
it a crime con Yeah, yeah, I don't remember. I
(07:46):
think it was like it may have been last year
or the year before that. He was up on stage
doing this. He pulled people up out of the audience.
But he'd go to universities, he'd go to anywhere. And
you talk about bravery. Here's the one thing. Did you
know that when you go to that museum, the Book
Depository Museum, it's it the narrative in there, and you
(08:10):
can feel it when you walk in. Is Lone Gunman.
It's lone Gunman. It's it's Lee Harvey Oswald did this
end of story? Did you know that doctor Weck was
the first person that was allowed to come in and
speak as a featured speaker that had an opinion that
(08:31):
differed from the lone gunman theory. He's the first person
that did that in that environment. So you talk about
walking into being brave enough to walk into the lines den,
he did it. Now, look, I'm not going to sit
here and say that doctor Weck didn't. He's man. He
had you know, he had faults. But I got to
tell you, you talk about a remarkable life. This is
(08:53):
not just a man that was a physician, which he was.
He's also an attorney and had worked as a prosecutor
in addition to his duties as a forensic pathology Wait.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
A minute, back up, Yeah, he wasn't. He wasn't just
a guy who went to school and got a law
degree and then didn't practice just to make him a
better investigator. He actually was a practicing attorney as a prosecutor.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yeah yeah. He worked for Allegheny County.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Pennsylvania where he lived in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah yeah, and so he yeah, and he was part
and parcel of the political landscape right in Allegheny did
that Pittsburgh?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, And by the way, is a whole local history
and carah Weck, you're going to find out there were
a couple of criminal trials associated with him in Alleghany
County over times where he ran for office and was
in office.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
It's when you actually look.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
At him though you're not dealing with you're you're dealing
with a lot of things that happened at a local
level politically speaking. This is the guy who was obviously brilliant.
You know, you cannot get a medical degree a law
degree in practice both without having a few marbles that
are really attached on the inside.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
There's just no way.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
But I looked at those trials, I looked at the
criminal Act and I'm like, this is why good people
don't get into politics. You're right, and look at what
they did to him if you have a moment. But
when you talk about guts, Joe, you're talking about the
Warrant Commission, which was all the government chief Chief Justice
Earl Warren Warren And by the way, just so you know,
(10:29):
just for fun, yeah, the only unelected president of the
United States of America a congressman from Michigan who his
best claim to fame was a former football player who
probably got hit on the head one too many times
when he had a leather helmet on. Gerald R. Ford
was also on the committee. So you've got the Warrant
Commission that came up with the magic bullet theory and
everything else you read in that guard Well, I think garbage, But.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
There are those who actually believe it.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
And I'm thinking, these are the same people believe a
lot of things that I don't believe. And I'm going
to leave it at that, because this is not.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
There's one player you left out of all of this. Yeah,
that is the former that's the former head of the CIA,
Alan Dulles, and he was part of it as well.
And so when you're when you're talking about we said guts,
let's let's transition to the term intestinal fortitude at this
point in time, because you know, it's not like, it's
not like doctor Weck. And here's one more accolade that
(11:29):
people might not know. Doctor Weck. Uh was also a
serving officer in the Air Force. He was a physician
and Air Force as a matter of fact, here in
our great state of Alabama. He was stationed for his
tour duty at Maxwell Air Force Base in Montgomery, and
so he he had, you know, going in, doctor Weck
(11:52):
had an understanding of of the guts of the government
and how things operate bureaucratically. He would have had an
awareness of all of this. But still in the face
of all of that, still in the face of all
that he soldiered on. And this, this is the thing
(12:14):
about it is is that Sarah Weck was not as
many out there are. He wasn't just a I had
a physician I used to work with. He would he
would use this term, a professional test taker. And that's
people that just go and grab degrees just so that
they can stack them. Doctor Weck was a person of
such remarkable intellect that he actually could go in and
(12:43):
take all of these tools that he was armed with
and break things down and analyze them and come to
his own. He didn't have to rely on counsel, is right.
And I don't mean counsel like in the in the
in the sense of an attorney, because he was an attorney.
But he could look at things from the perspective of jurisprudence.
(13:05):
He could look at it from the perspective of a
forensic pathology uh dynamic and you know, kind of blending
all of that too together. I think when you this
is what it comes down to, and you talked about
these these local charges and all this worth. Yeah. Can
you imagine being some local yokel that's running for an
(13:25):
office and the best you've ever been able to do
is eke out some degree from some nowhere plays and
you you're literally so unsophisticated, and then you're going up
against a brain like this. I think a lot of
it comes down to just pure jealousy.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
I did not realize he was that accomplished.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yeah, And here's the thing about it, this is the
amazing thing. You want to get off into the weeds
academically with him. He went to pitt as an undergraduate,
which makes sense. He's he's a home he's he's a
hometown boy. Did his undergraduate pit then did his medical
(14:03):
school at pitt which, by the way, they have a
renowned medical school. He goes into the Air Force. He's
temporarily I might get this strong, but let me see
if I can get this straight. He's working as a pathologist,
I think, in the Air Force in Maryland. Goes to
(14:24):
the University of Maryland, acquires a law degree, musters out
of the Air Force, comes back to Pittsburgh, gets another
law degree at pitt And all the while he is
he's run for the office of what was then coroner
(14:45):
in Pittsburgh, and is elected to that office, and begins
to blend all of this together. I can't even imagine,
you know, when he was at the prime of his life,
when he was a young man. Can you imagine the
vigor that it requires to be able to do this.
Oh and by the way, he had arguably one of
(15:06):
the most successful marriages at all. His wife was a
Norwegian immigrant. They have four great children. I'm privileged to
actually know his son Ben, and of course I knew
doctor Whack too. I've been invited to speak at Ducaine University,
(15:26):
where his institute is housed. And so you look at
this and you try to take the measure of somebody
like this and the loss that not just the forensic
community has. But he's a benchmark moment in time, and
my prediction, Dave, as of decades continue to go by,
(15:51):
at some point in time, the truth will come out
in its totality about what happened to JFK and their standing.
Among the rubble of all of these laws for all
of these years will be doctor Sarah Weick, and what
(16:13):
he had told us so many years ago, what he
had predicted so many years ago, will be the truth.
(16:37):
You know, if you're an academia, one of the things
you have to do as an academic is study something.
It kind of it. The academy expects you to valid
at your existence in order to you know, in dwell
an institution of higher learning. You know, you've heard the
(16:58):
old adage about publisher perish. I certainly don't work at
an institution like that, but yet you have to have
an area of interest that you're going to do researching,
and so by virtue of what I do as a
forensics professor, one of the things that I've always been
fascinated by, one of the things that I have studied
(17:19):
over the years is the American corner system, and today
we need to make a note of this. I think
we're going to do an episode at some point in
time that deals with nothing but the origin of a corner,
and that in and of itself is one of the
most fascinating things in my mind, at least that we
can talk about, because I'm going to talk about things
(17:39):
that people don't really know about that.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Just so you guys know, we have a number of
you have reached out over the last year or so
about different things you'd like to hear or see, and
this was one of those topics that came up. I
heard you talking to somebody else about different corner things,
and I just didn't know. The thought that I didn't
know a lot of these things really kind of boggled
(18:01):
my mind, and I wondered how many of y'all know
exactly what really goes on in this history of corners.
And right before the show, when we were talking about
Cyril Weckt and Erner Spitz, I was talking to Joe
about something because there are some areas that you know,
a corner doesn't have to have a medical degree, a
corner doesn't have to have any just run for election
and that just kind of scares me. I'm thinking, but
(18:23):
what if you know, what if I was poisoned by
a neighbor and you're this guy works as a mechanic.
Not that he's not a good guy, but really he's
gonna have to go get the grease off his hands
to figure out how I died.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
How is this going to happen? You know anyway?
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Well, you know with with doctor Weck, you know, Dave,
he understood that that premise. And look, there are many
fine corners out there, and a lot of them I
consider dear friends. And you work within the system that
you're that you're in. But one of things he experienced
I think in Pittsburgh. Uh, because let's face it, he
(18:59):
was in Pittsburgh. Boy, he's been there. He was there
in his entire life. He appreciated the need to be
an independent, an independent voice of forensics and in a
position that might not necessarily be an elected position, but
(19:20):
yet it is a position that stands alone in its
examination of of medical legal issues. Dave he spearheaded the
transition from a corner's office in Alligaty County to a
medical examiner's office. That is a huge leap and the
(19:43):
one thing that and I'd love to discuss this with you,
because one of the things I think that doctor understood
is that he did not want to be tethered to
any branch of law enforcement or any or or any
prosecutor's office. He wanted it to be not depended upon election.
(20:05):
He wanted it to be depended upon the science, and
that you cannot influence a medical examiner the way say,
for instance, a corner might be influenced by the political tides.
And there are many corners out there that fight this
fight all along. You know, they're elected, and you can
come after them, you know, with you know, threatening to
(20:27):
get them out of office and this sort of thing.
But as a medical examiner, he kind of extricated the
medical legal community up there from being bound, I think,
being bound by this attachment to law enforcement. There's a term,
and many of us really resent it. I don't know
if you've ever heard this before, Dave, but there's a term,
(20:50):
and it's kind of it's a derogatory, pejorative term as
it applies to medical examiner's offices and corners offices actually
called a cop shop. Now, many people have not heard
this before, but this is a reality. So if an
outsider comes into a medical legal environment and it's very
(21:11):
pro police, like, you know that everything that the police
do is pure as the driven snow that all objectivity
has flown out of the window, that you know, we
can go to the corner and wink, wink, nudge nudge,
they'll pretty much we can kind of influence what they do.
That kind of sets the parameters for what a cop
(21:34):
shop is and it's something that I think, as a
forensic scientist, you should flee from. And there's a lot
of examples, positive examples out there of medical legal agencies
that have completely extricated themselves from systems like that. Number one.
If you want to check out a perfect template for this,
(21:54):
you go to New Mexico. Because in the state of
New Mexico they have a state Medical Examiner and guess
who controls it. It's the state Health Department. Oh wow,
so they don't they're not beholding to LA. They get
along with law enforcement. I'm not saying that, but they
you know, they make these judgments independent of everybody else.
(22:16):
And so again here we have doctor Wack that is
this brave soul that's kind of you know, that's kind
of he sallies forth into into these unknown waters where
every everything, every inclination that he may have been used
to hearing over the years, he would go contrary to that,
(22:41):
and he would follow his own voice within. And this
this brilliant brain that he had, these things that he
could he could examine from his own perspective. He might ask.
I'm sure that he might ask your opinion about it.
I'm sure he was willing to do that in many occasions,
but he's Don't you love the term when people say
they keep their own counsel, Dave.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
I do, it just means that they are wise enough
to know they don't have to share anything, and if
they do, it means something. That's how I've always looked
at that, you know. And now that I know a
little bit more about steril, whck to understand that?
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Yeah? You know, I still can't. What amazes me is
that he was an elected coroner and also he ran
for county post as well as like county commissioner.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
And nineteen seventy nine.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Which is not These are not waters I would firstly
choose to swim in, you know. But I think that
when you have this this brilliant soul that he was
you you constantly have to be intellectually stimulated or you
get bored. And there's one very kind of famous, famous
(23:53):
quote about doctor Weckt and it's like his and this
is not absolute, but it's of paraphrase. He didn't his
life was his hobby. He didn't go out and play golf. Okay,
So these things that he engaged in the study of
various things. And he was fantastic at esoteric topics, you know,
(24:16):
like history and these sorts of things. He was well
versed and well read. You know, he's one of these people.
He's he's he was almost he was kind of this
modern philosopher, you know. And and that's why, you know,
when I had the opportunity to actually and I'm so
privileged to be able to look back, Dave. I got
(24:37):
to tell you, man, I got invited to Decane University,
where you know, uh, doctor wexs Institute is housed, and
they have an annual an annual conference there where they
bring you in and you talk about various topics in
(24:57):
forensic science. And you know, he's done them on a
of things over the years. But I was actually able
to be on a panel with doctor Wack where he
was seated. See, he was two persons away from me.
And I found myself at one point in time, at
one point in time, and as you can tell, as
(25:21):
people know me, I'm rather verbose. Uh. I found myself
not saying anything. It was I was leaning over the table,
looking back to my right. The mic is right by
my lips like this, and I'm thinking, and I'm just
looking down the table and I'm thinking, oh my god,
Sarah w Weck is sitting right there, and I'm on
(25:42):
a panel and people are asking us all questions. I'm thinking,
what they're gonna find out I'm a fraud?
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Yeah, there you go. I'm gonna be right now.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
That this is happening. You know, it's going to be
in this group of esteemed people. And he's sitting there
and holding forth on the topic that was that was
at and uh and it had to do with forensics
in the media, which in itself was was fascinating because
you know, doctor Weck had been He's rendered very controversial
(26:10):
opinion about about John Beney, which well, wait a minute, yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
What did he do? What did he say about her?
Speaker 2 (26:21):
And the reason I'm asking because we had well we
did Werner Spitz last week, and he also had something
very controversial about Jehan Benet in that case.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Yeah, well, I'll try to let me see, how can
I handle this delicately, Doctor Weck, Doctor Weck, this is
not Joseph Scott.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
For yes, doctor.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Weg held an opinion right that John Benet's father had
brought about her end okay, and that it was probably accidental.
And I I don't know that I necessarily share that belief.
But the fact that again that goes to him inserting
(27:06):
himself into this, He's asked about it and then he
answers it. And of course we all know what happened
with doctor Spitz. You know, in this particular circumstance.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
He got sued.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
By the way, in case you're not familiar, to go
back and listen to our show that it had hit
last week. Yeah, last week and where we actually broke
that down. But let me go a little bit further.
I got to ask you a question about a couple
of things, can.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
I yeah, absolutely all right. I think it came out.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
No, we talked about jfk earlier and Sarah Weck, but
we never actually got down to it. We knew that
he was kind of the lone voice in the wilderness,
saying he did not agree with the Warren Commission. What
did Sarah Weck actually believe happened with regard to the
assassination of JFK.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
He felt as though that that, you know, back into
the left with a supruder film. He felt like that
that was evidence of a second shooter. And listen, I'm
gonna I'm going to drop a bombshell here in a
moment that a lot of people have heard rumored over
the years. They didn't really know about it or what
(28:14):
the source of it was, but I will tell you
that he felt so strongly about this, and you had
mentioned earlier that it came about in the wake of
you know, him looking at things and him believing I
think initially, like as Americans, we we all want to
(28:36):
believe that what our government is telling us is the truth.
That what we are we shouldn't believe our lying eyes,
you know, as it comes down to it, that we
should believe what they're telling us. Doctor Weck saw things
(28:59):
in that he literally bore witness to that no other
person had ever been allowed to see. And he came
to some conclusions that in the end absolutely or the
driving force why he rendered this opinion regarding JFK as
a falsehood. Dave, I've never been to France, but I
(29:41):
have a desire to go to the Louver because I
would love to see the Mona Lisa. I think that
that would be really, really cool. But can you imagine
if you go to the Louver and you're standing in
front of the Mona Lisa, which is behind thick glass, which
by the way, has has been you know, attacked over
(30:03):
the past few years by people throwing paint on it
and all that nonsense. Can you imagine what it would
be like to have somebody that's got a big ring
of keys in her hand and they walk out to
you and say, hey, we want to take you behind
the wall. Here. We're gonna pull the Mona Lisa out
from its its place this perch. Here, We're going to
(30:26):
actually let you see it, because what I've been told,
when you walk in, it's it's behind thick glass. It's
it's very dark, you know, because they're trying to protect it.
But can you imagine what that would be like? Or
can you imagine going to the Sistine Chapel and they say, dude,
we've got a scaffel, a scaffold for you. Here, we're
going to set it up. Here's a magnifying glass. We're
(30:48):
going to let you climb up there and look at
this beautiful detail on the ceiling. Can you imagine what
that would be like. Sarah Weck was a person that
out of every he was chosen and was provided access
to the National Archives relative to the JFK assassination. And
(31:10):
he's one of the first person that actually saw the
color photography from the autopsy. He got to examine a
lot of the documents that were there. But you know,
the curious thing that doctor Weck wanted to see and
was told would be there, And certainly as a forensic pathologist,
(31:32):
you can appreciate why he would want to see this item.
He goes to look for it and it ain't there.
Sarah Weck is the person that actually discovered the JFK's
brain was missing. I want you just to step back
just for a second and imagine that you're at this
(31:55):
like confluence in history, all right, and you go into
the National Archives and they tell you that the former
president of the United States who was murdered in front
of hundreds of people, that we've got all of this,
(32:16):
you know, all of these artifacts from this Let's I
don't know, Dave. Could we say that it's one of
the seminal events in American history, would you margin?
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Would you concur with that in world history?
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yes, the assassination of President John Fitzderald Kennedy in November
twenty second, nineteen sixty three is a moment in time
historically speaking, that people in the future are going to
look back and say, that's when the United States government
was no longer relevant.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Yeah. Yeah. And to further prove your point, he's this
man is brought into into this environment and there's a
log list. You know, it's like an evidence log list. Yeah,
(33:06):
we got you know, right right here? Yeah, yeah, it's
right here. Okay. And doctor Weck had a very distinctive
voice when he would talk, and he's very intense when
he'd look at you, you know, as he's talking to you.
You know you yeah, couldn't I know, He's like, hey, hey,
you know, where is.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
It, Clara Beller? Where's the beef?
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Exactly? Where is the brain? How can you the single
most critical piece of evidence, mind you, because this is
literally what is up to as a kill shot all right,
it ain't there. What happened to it? And when this
information comes out, you know, it's a firestorm. And you know,
(33:49):
if you don't believe me, I mean again, don't believe me,
do your own research, go out there and look. And
this is it's a seminal moment.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
That's why I say history will reflect on this. That's
the and became irrelevant as a government because they a
lied to the American people. You know, we are not
a democracy. We are a representative republic, meaning you and
I have a representative that is in Washington, d C.
And the House of Representatives that is our guy. And
(34:18):
call your guy and he doesn't know. And I mean
that in the plural mankind thing. Whoever is your representative,
they ought to know or be able to get you
the answers of these things. And when you ask questions
about the assassination of the President of the United States
of America and look at the twelve years after his
assassination and what took place, And if every representative doesn't
(34:39):
know the answer to what took place in our government,
that tells you everything you need to know.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
The brain is gone. Who fired Joe? Who got fired
for that?
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Exactly? And you know, I can only imagine that that
and there were other things that he that were absent
as well, but.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
Destroyer get rid of evidence to cover up the crime.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
And you know, he's the one sniffing, sniffing this thing
out and looking at it, uh and and thinking, you know,
all along he's probably thinking, Okay, we're we're being we're
being lied.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
To over over over all of this.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
And interestingly enough, you know Arlen Spector, who headed up
you know, he was like the legal counsel relative to
the Warren Commission. You know, he's he's a Pennsylvania product
as well, and you know, for years, you know what,
and he bumped you know, they bumped heads with one another,
(35:43):
I think, you know, geographic proximity obviously, but they were
such high profile and polarizing characters that it did interesting
that both of these people, you know, became uh became entangled.
I think that they kind of settled their differences after
a while. But you know, when you look at you know,
some of the some of the cases that come to
(36:05):
mind with with doctor weck he he he actually you know,
offered commentary on the death of Elvis Presley and particularly
I think resulting from the drugs. You know that that
h that Elvis was provided with uh Scarsdale diet. You know, yeah,
he was involved with that. He offered he did testimony
(36:28):
a trial relative to Class vound Bulau.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
I did know that, Sonny von Buloh yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
And so you know, the list goes on and on.
And he even offered opinions about you know, O. J. Simpson,
uh and uh, you know, and also Michael Jackson. So
he's got you know, this wide ranging look. Some people say, Okay,
he was a celebrity pathologist. I don't. I don't necessarily
(36:54):
concur with with that assessment. I think that in in times,
in terrific times, you need a voice that is that's
a balanced voice. I think that is a critical voice, uh,
that can step in into the gap and interpret these
things that other people are not necessarily equipped to do with.
(37:16):
And I think we laid the foundation talking about at
least academically. And he's not a person that sat back
on his laurels and never did anything. You know. One
of the most beautiful things that that he was able
to create, and his living legacy is actually going to
be uh the Sarah Wick Institute, you know that exists
at at Ducane and it offers continuing education, you know,
(37:38):
in in forensic science uh and the and it's combined,
interestingly enough, with their law school in addition to that.
And so he's this school and one of my one
of my dear friends, uh is heads up the forensics
program there. Uh. And she's a brilliant DNA scientist and
(38:05):
she's you know, I have a little bit of insight,
you know, into what that dynamic was like with doctor Weck.
And you know, she has gone on and on about
the mind that he possessed. You know that you sit
there and you can have these conversations with him, and
he's up in age, you know, at this point, and
he's still he's still firing on all cylinders.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
Isn't that great?
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Yeah? Yeah, it really is. And I think that it's
it's important, just just for a moment, and I think
that I would I would really like to kind of
close things out by, you know, kind of talking about
some of some of his accomplishments, because it's certainly a
fascinating life. I think that if I could, uh, you know,
(38:49):
launch off this mortal coil at the end of my
life with a third of his accomplishments, it would be
quite remarkable. But you know, just to set this in perspective,
doctor Weck, over the course of his career, this man
(39:12):
did over twenty one thousand, twenty one thousand autopsies Dave,
he consulted get Ready for this one, and on over
forty two thousand additional post mortem examinations and including He's
(39:36):
traveled all over the world rendering opinions. And we're talking
about things like war crimes and things like this that
you and I, hey, and I think that doctor Weck
actually did things that many of us will never even
know about, where he came in and consulted in cases
that were you know, that came about as a result
of humanitarian crises. Because that's you know, it's kind of
the heart that he had. He you know, he's written,
(40:02):
i think in all, close to seven hundred professional publications.
He's either the editor or the co editor of over
forty eight books. He's written multiple non fiction books, and
(40:23):
president former president American College of Legal Medicine, Academy and
the Academy. I imagine this. He was actually president of
American Academy of Forensic Science. He'd been board certified as
a pathologist, anatomically, clinically and forensics. He's a Fellow of
the College of American Pathologist, American Society of Clinical Pathologist,
(40:47):
and a member of the National Association of Medical Examiners.
He wrote he actually wrote a memoir, The Life and
Death of Cyril Wegg, Memoir of American of America's most
controversial forensic pathologist. And of course he's he is a
(41:08):
major contributor to a book on the JFK assassination. And
you know, I'm not getting a nickel for this, but
I would strongly urge anybody that has an opportunity to
watch Oliver Stones produced multi part series on the JFK Assassination.
I think it's probably on Prime. There's an entire episode
(41:32):
of that dedicated to Cyril Wack. Oh wow, and it's
absolutely fascinating.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Day Well, Sarah Wick wrote a book, you know, the
JFK Assassination Dissected.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Yeah, yeah, and that's the one I was referring to. Yeah,
I'm sorry the name escaped me.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
But analysis by forensic pathologist Cyril Wacked. You can get
it on a paper book. It's available. And again, not
plugging or not shilling for anybody here, just sharing that
while many of us think certain things based on whatever
entertainment thing we've seen without any background in it, without
you know, without being able to pass a basic science
(42:07):
and biology class in high school, we think we are
somehow capable of commenting on what took place in the
autopsy of the president. And yet here we go. We
have the opportunity to read what some of the best
minds have to say about the subject matter, and I
encourage you to read it before you yell out your opinion.
(42:28):
Read what somebody who knew what they were talking about said.
I think that's a good place to start in Sarah
Weack when you come to the jffgass aascination. I believe
Sarah Weck is a great place to start. I have
read his books.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
Well, and look, I think there's not too much more
that in my own feeble way I could ever say
about Cirriah Weck. I had to take a moment to
honor him on our program because this is the passing
(43:02):
of a giant in his field. His mark will be
forever present on all of our lives, and he is
somebody I think that we should in some ways aspire
to be. And what I mean the one characteristic that
I would you know that I would encourage my son
(43:24):
even always always seek knowledge and always seek the truth.
Try to find the truth in your own way. Come
to terms with that. Don't don't be one of these
people that is just going to go along with the
flow and simply say, oh, well the crowd said it,
I'm going with it. That's not the type of person
he was. Doctor Weck was a one of a kind
(43:47):
out there. So I just want to take a moment
and first off acknowledge his passing, and certainly the Weck family,
the Dokaine family, and all of his extended friends and colleagues,
my deepest sympathies to them because he's a man. He
is a man that has impacted so many of us
(44:11):
in the field of forensic science. He passed away peacefully
on May thirteenth, twenty four. Here's the U, doctor way.
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks
Body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan back and to the
left back and to the left back and to the
left For many of us, we have heard those words
(00:39):
for years now. They first came into I guess our
lexicon when Oliver Stones movie JFK premiered several decades ago now.
But you know those those words did not come from
(01:02):
the pen of Oliver Stone, though Kevin Costner was uttering
them as Jim Garrison on film, that's not their point
of origin either. They originated from the mind of one
(01:24):
of the giants of forensic science. Today, we're going to
talk about the remarkable life of Sarah Wick. I'm Joseph
Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks Dave back in. Let's see.
(01:53):
Back in November, obviously, you and I taped one of
our most well received episodes of this podcast, and it
had to do with the assassination of our former president
(02:14):
John Kennedy, and that that story had occupied a time
and a place that you know for many of that
generation is now beginning to fade. But there's something that
had entered our lexicon as a result of the man
that we're going to be discussing today that will echo
(02:38):
through through time, I submit to you. And as a
matter of fact, it's not only has it been that
phrase as it been dramaticized from the perspective of Oliver
Stones movie, but actually had drifted over into Seinfeld. But
they did an entire episode involving Newman and Kraman, Yeah,
(02:58):
the the loogie magically, keithr and Andez Yeah, back into
the left. That's that's kind of how ingrained that is.
But you know, we we have to understand that that
originates from a person who occupied, uh, these these great
(03:20):
heights that very few have ever reached, both academically, professionally
and even and even people might be surprised to find
this out politically, and it came from doctor Cyril Weck.
And you know the reason I feel compelled, uh to
lay this down today is the fact that unfortunately, uh,
(03:45):
in the past week, UH, doctor Weck has passed on.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
And I can't believe we're having this conversation because what
are the odds that within two weeks, three weeks and
one another, we would we would lose ownership it and
we would lose Cyril Weck.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Amazing.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Yeah, two giants that have gone down now.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
And they were both very I mean, like Sarah Weck
was ninety three, Yeah, he was, and that was Gerni
Spittz was ninety four.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yeah. Yeah. They both kind of occupy that space and
and there's a connection between both of them and JFK.
Yeah didn't, Yeah, they did. And they were on the
same committee. I think. I think that Michael bod was
on the There was somebody else that I can't I
can't really recall, but you know, Sarah Weck was the
(04:35):
one dissenting voice out of that. Out of that group
of people, I think they all came to the conclusion
that the President's autopsy was botched. And to say that,
to say that his autopsy was botched is an insult
to all things that have been botched through the through
all of human history. Out of all of the autopsies
(04:56):
that could have been botched, JFK's was botched by rank amateurs.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
If that doesn't tell you something's wrong, Okay, And I
mean this in the nicest way I can. Whether you
believe that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone and shot the
president from behind from the third floor of the Texas
school Book Depository as he went through Dealey Plaza, or
if you believe something else. We as the American people,
(05:26):
deserve to know the truth. And they prevented that from
happening and started breaking the law immediately. And that's a
major problem for people like me. When they took the body,
they being whatever powers that be Lyndon Baines Johnson at
the top. When they stole, kidnapped the body of the president,
(05:49):
the former president, and took him back to Washington, D C.
They broke a law. Yes, they broke multiple laws in
what they did. And they being again whoever orchestrated this
whole thing. And then the cover up. The cover up
began in Dallas and ends in Washington, D C. And
all these years later, we still don't know what happened.
But Sarah Wack had the guts to stand up and say,
(06:12):
I used to believe the Warring Commission until I looked
at the facts.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yeah, And you said guts, and you're absolutely right. Can
you imagine, you know, there's a lot of people, you know,
I think that that think that that think that they
that think that they can be brave, and and people
throw around the term bravery a lot nowadays. You know,
I think everybody thinks that they're Audie Murphy h and
(06:39):
they're not. I hate to inform you you're not. Sarah Weck.
Is this person that stood by many accounts alone. Ye,
he was that lone voice crying out in the wilderness.
And he did it for years and years. You know,
you know, Dave, this is interesting. I've actually been present
(07:01):
he he would he would go and do presentations where
he would bring up audience members. This is where this
thing originated with Seinfeld and I think with JFK as well,
back going back to the movie where he would pull
people out of the audience. They actually did this in
the film where they have the people seated behind one
(07:24):
another and as if they're riding in the limo and
he's got this rod that's showing the trajectory. That's a
real thing. And he still did it. He was still
doing this right up till recently when he would travel around.
He's done it. He did it. I think it was
was it last year or the year before he did
it a crime con Yeah, yeah, I don't remember. I
(07:46):
think it was like it may have been last year
or the year before that. He was up on stage
doing this. He pulled people up out of the audience.
But he'd go to universities, he'd go to anywhere. And
you talk about bravery. Here's the one thing. Did you
know that when you go to that museum, the Book
Depository Museum, it's it the narrative in there, and you
(08:10):
can feel it when you walk in. Is Lone Gunman.
It's lone Gunman. It's it's Lee Harvey Oswald did this
end of story? Did you know that doctor Weck was
the first person that was allowed to come in and
speak as a featured speaker that had an opinion that
(08:31):
differed from the lone gunman theory. He's the first person
that did that in that environment. So you talk about
walking into being brave enough to walk into the lines den,
he did it. Now, look, I'm not going to sit
here and say that doctor Weck didn't. He's man. He
had you know, he had faults. But I got to
tell you, you talk about a remarkable life. This is
(08:53):
not just a man that was a physician, which he was.
He's also an attorney and had worked as a prosecutor
in addition to his duties as a forensic pathology Wait.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
A minute, back up, Yeah, he wasn't. He wasn't just
a guy who went to school and got a law
degree and then didn't practice just to make him a
better investigator. He actually was a practicing attorney as a prosecutor.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yeah yeah. He worked for Allegheny County.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Pennsylvania where he lived in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah yeah, and so he yeah, and he was part
and parcel of the political landscape right in Allegheny did
that Pittsburgh?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, And by the way, is a whole local history
and carah Weck, you're going to find out there were
a couple of criminal trials associated with him in Alleghany
County over times where he ran for office and was
in office.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
It's when you actually look.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
At him though you're not dealing with you're you're dealing
with a lot of things that happened at a local
level politically speaking. This is the guy who was obviously brilliant.
You know, you cannot get a medical degree a law
degree in practice both without having a few marbles that
are really attached on the inside.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
There's just no way.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
But I looked at those trials, I looked at the
criminal Act and I'm like, this is why good people
don't get into politics. You're right, and look at what
they did to him if you have a moment. But
when you talk about guts, Joe, you're talking about the
Warrant Commission, which was all the government chief Chief Justice
Earl Warren Warren And by the way, just so you know,
(10:29):
just for fun, yeah, the only unelected president of the
United States of America a congressman from Michigan who his
best claim to fame was a former football player who
probably got hit on the head one too many times
when he had a leather helmet on. Gerald R. Ford
was also on the committee. So you've got the Warrant
Commission that came up with the magic bullet theory and
everything else you read in that guard Well, I think garbage, But.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
There are those who actually believe it.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
And I'm thinking, these are the same people believe a
lot of things that I don't believe. And I'm going
to leave it at that, because this is not.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
There's one player you left out of all of this. Yeah,
that is the former that's the former head of the CIA,
Alan Dulles, and he was part of it as well.
And so when you're when you're talking about we said guts,
let's let's transition to the term intestinal fortitude at this
point in time, because you know, it's not like, it's
not like doctor Weck. And here's one more accolade that
(11:29):
people might not know. Doctor Weck. Uh was also a
serving officer in the Air Force. He was a physician
and Air Force as a matter of fact, here in
our great state of Alabama. He was stationed for his
tour duty at Maxwell Air Force Base in Montgomery, and
so he he had, you know, going in, doctor Weck
(11:52):
had an understanding of of the guts of the government
and how things operate bureaucratically. He would have had an
awareness of all of this. But still in the face
of all of that, still in the face of all
that he soldiered on. And this, this is the thing
(12:14):
about it is is that Sarah Weck was not as
many out there are. He wasn't just a I had
a physician I used to work with. He would he
would use this term, a professional test taker. And that's
people that just go and grab degrees just so that
they can stack them. Doctor Weck was a person of
such remarkable intellect that he actually could go in and
(12:43):
take all of these tools that he was armed with
and break things down and analyze them and come to
his own. He didn't have to rely on counsel, is right.
And I don't mean counsel like in the in the
in the sense of an attorney, because he was an attorney.
But he could look at things from the perspective of jurisprudence.
(13:05):
He could look at it from the perspective of a
forensic pathology uh dynamic and you know, kind of blending
all of that too together. I think when you this
is what it comes down to, and you talked about
these these local charges and all this worth. Yeah. Can
you imagine being some local yokel that's running for an
(13:25):
office and the best you've ever been able to do
is eke out some degree from some nowhere plays and
you you're literally so unsophisticated, and then you're going up
against a brain like this. I think a lot of
it comes down to just pure jealousy.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
I did not realize he was that accomplished.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yeah, And here's the thing about it, this is the
amazing thing. You want to get off into the weeds
academically with him. He went to pitt as an undergraduate,
which makes sense. He's he's a home he's he's a
hometown boy. Did his undergraduate pit then did his medical
(14:03):
school at pitt which, by the way, they have a
renowned medical school. He goes into the Air Force. He's
temporarily I might get this strong, but let me see
if I can get this straight. He's working as a pathologist,
I think, in the Air Force in Maryland. Goes to
(14:24):
the University of Maryland, acquires a law degree, musters out
of the Air Force, comes back to Pittsburgh, gets another
law degree at pitt And all the while he is
he's run for the office of what was then coroner
(14:45):
in Pittsburgh, and is elected to that office, and begins
to blend all of this together. I can't even imagine,
you know, when he was at the prime of his life,
when he was a young man. Can you imagine the
vigor that it requires to be able to do this.
Oh and by the way, he had arguably one of
(15:06):
the most successful marriages at all. His wife was a
Norwegian immigrant. They have four great children. I'm privileged to
actually know his son Ben, and of course I knew
doctor Whack too. I've been invited to speak at Ducaine University,
(15:26):
where his institute is housed. And so you look at
this and you try to take the measure of somebody
like this and the loss that not just the forensic
community has. But he's a benchmark moment in time, and
my prediction, Dave, as of decades continue to go by,
(15:51):
at some point in time, the truth will come out
in its totality about what happened to JFK and their standing.
Among the rubble of all of these laws for all
of these years will be doctor Sarah Weick, and what
(16:13):
he had told us so many years ago, what he
had predicted so many years ago, will be the truth.
(16:37):
You know, if you're an academia, one of the things
you have to do as an academic is study something.
It kind of it. The academy expects you to valid
at your existence in order to you know, in dwell
an institution of higher learning. You know, you've heard the
(16:58):
old adage about publisher perish. I certainly don't work at
an institution like that, but yet you have to have
an area of interest that you're going to do researching,
and so by virtue of what I do as a
forensics professor, one of the things that I've always been
fascinated by, one of the things that I have studied
(17:19):
over the years is the American corner system, and today
we need to make a note of this. I think
we're going to do an episode at some point in
time that deals with nothing but the origin of a corner,
and that in and of itself is one of the
most fascinating things in my mind, at least that we
can talk about, because I'm going to talk about things
(17:39):
that people don't really know about that.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Just so you guys know, we have a number of
you have reached out over the last year or so
about different things you'd like to hear or see, and
this was one of those topics that came up. I
heard you talking to somebody else about different corner things,
and I just didn't know. The thought that I didn't
know a lot of these things really kind of boggled
(18:01):
my mind, and I wondered how many of y'all know
exactly what really goes on in this history of corners.
And right before the show, when we were talking about
Cyril Weckt and Erner Spitz, I was talking to Joe
about something because there are some areas that you know,
a corner doesn't have to have a medical degree, a
corner doesn't have to have any just run for election
and that just kind of scares me. I'm thinking, but
(18:23):
what if you know, what if I was poisoned by
a neighbor and you're this guy works as a mechanic.
Not that he's not a good guy, but really he's
gonna have to go get the grease off his hands
to figure out how I died.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
How is this going to happen? You know anyway?
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Well, you know with with doctor Weck, you know, Dave,
he understood that that premise. And look, there are many
fine corners out there, and a lot of them I
consider dear friends. And you work within the system that
you're that you're in. But one of things he experienced
I think in Pittsburgh. Uh, because let's face it, he
(18:59):
was in Pittsburgh. Boy, he's been there. He was there
in his entire life. He appreciated the need to be
an independent, an independent voice of forensics and in a
position that might not necessarily be an elected position, but
(19:20):
yet it is a position that stands alone in its
examination of of medical legal issues. Dave he spearheaded the
transition from a corner's office in Alligaty County to a
medical examiner's office. That is a huge leap and the
(19:43):
one thing that and I'd love to discuss this with you,
because one of the things I think that doctor understood
is that he did not want to be tethered to
any branch of law enforcement or any or or any
prosecutor's office. He wanted it to be not depended upon election.
(20:05):
He wanted it to be depended upon the science, and
that you cannot influence a medical examiner the way say,
for instance, a corner might be influenced by the political tides.
And there are many corners out there that fight this
fight all along. You know, they're elected, and you can
come after them, you know, with you know, threatening to
(20:27):
get them out of office and this sort of thing.
But as a medical examiner, he kind of extricated the
medical legal community up there from being bound, I think,
being bound by this attachment to law enforcement. There's a term,
and many of us really resent it. I don't know
if you've ever heard this before, Dave, but there's a term,
(20:50):
and it's kind of it's a derogatory, pejorative term as
it applies to medical examiner's offices and corners offices actually
called a cop shop. Now, many people have not heard
this before, but this is a reality. So if an
outsider comes into a medical legal environment and it's very
(21:11):
pro police, like, you know that everything that the police
do is pure as the driven snow that all objectivity
has flown out of the window, that you know, we
can go to the corner and wink, wink, nudge nudge,
they'll pretty much we can kind of influence what they do.
That kind of sets the parameters for what a cop
(21:34):
shop is and it's something that I think, as a
forensic scientist, you should flee from. And there's a lot
of examples, positive examples out there of medical legal agencies
that have completely extricated themselves from systems like that. Number one.
If you want to check out a perfect template for this,
(21:54):
you go to New Mexico. Because in the state of
New Mexico they have a state Medical Examiner and guess
who controls it. It's the state Health Department. Oh wow,
so they don't they're not beholding to LA. They get
along with law enforcement. I'm not saying that, but they
you know, they make these judgments independent of everybody else.
(22:16):
And so again here we have doctor Wack that is
this brave soul that's kind of you know, that's kind
of he sallies forth into into these unknown waters where
every everything, every inclination that he may have been used
to hearing over the years, he would go contrary to that,
(22:41):
and he would follow his own voice within. And this
this brilliant brain that he had, these things that he
could he could examine from his own perspective. He might ask.
I'm sure that he might ask your opinion about it.
I'm sure he was willing to do that in many occasions,
but he's Don't you love the term when people say
they keep their own counsel, Dave.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
I do, it just means that they are wise enough
to know they don't have to share anything, and if
they do, it means something. That's how I've always looked
at that, you know. And now that I know a
little bit more about steril, whck to understand that?
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Yeah? You know, I still can't. What amazes me is
that he was an elected coroner and also he ran
for county post as well as like county commissioner.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
And nineteen seventy nine.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Which is not These are not waters I would firstly
choose to swim in, you know. But I think that
when you have this this brilliant soul that he was
you you constantly have to be intellectually stimulated or you
get bored. And there's one very kind of famous, famous
(23:53):
quote about doctor Weckt and it's like his and this
is not absolute, but it's of paraphrase. He didn't his
life was his hobby. He didn't go out and play golf. Okay,
So these things that he engaged in the study of
various things. And he was fantastic at esoteric topics, you know,
(24:16):
like history and these sorts of things. He was well
versed and well read. You know, he's one of these people.
He's he's he was almost he was kind of this
modern philosopher, you know. And and that's why, you know,
when I had the opportunity to actually and I'm so
privileged to be able to look back, Dave. I got
(24:37):
to tell you, man, I got invited to Decane University,
where you know, uh, doctor wexs Institute is housed, and
they have an annual an annual conference there where they
bring you in and you talk about various topics in
(24:57):
forensic science. And you know, he's done them on a
of things over the years. But I was actually able
to be on a panel with doctor Wack where he
was seated. See, he was two persons away from me.
And I found myself at one point in time, at
one point in time, and as you can tell, as
(25:21):
people know me, I'm rather verbose. Uh. I found myself
not saying anything. It was I was leaning over the table,
looking back to my right. The mic is right by
my lips like this, and I'm thinking, and I'm just
looking down the table and I'm thinking, oh my god,
Sarah w Weck is sitting right there, and I'm on
(25:42):
a panel and people are asking us all questions. I'm thinking,
what they're gonna find out I'm a fraud?
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Yeah, there you go. I'm gonna be right now.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
That this is happening. You know, it's going to be
in this group of esteemed people. And he's sitting there
and holding forth on the topic that was that was
at and uh and it had to do with forensics
in the media, which in itself was was fascinating because
you know, doctor Weck had been He's rendered very controversial
(26:10):
opinion about about John Beney, which well, wait a minute, yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
What did he do? What did he say about her?
Speaker 2 (26:21):
And the reason I'm asking because we had well we
did Werner Spitz last week, and he also had something
very controversial about Jehan Benet in that case.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Yeah, well, I'll try to let me see, how can
I handle this delicately, Doctor Weck, Doctor Weck, this is
not Joseph Scott.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
For yes, doctor.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Weg held an opinion right that John Benet's father had
brought about her end okay, and that it was probably accidental.
And I I don't know that I necessarily share that belief.
But the fact that again that goes to him inserting
(27:06):
himself into this, He's asked about it and then he
answers it. And of course we all know what happened
with doctor Spitz. You know, in this particular circumstance.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
He got sued.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
By the way, in case you're not familiar, to go
back and listen to our show that it had hit
last week. Yeah, last week and where we actually broke
that down. But let me go a little bit further.
I got to ask you a question about a couple
of things, can.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
I yeah, absolutely all right. I think it came out.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
No, we talked about jfk earlier and Sarah Weck, but
we never actually got down to it. We knew that
he was kind of the lone voice in the wilderness,
saying he did not agree with the Warren Commission. What
did Sarah Weck actually believe happened with regard to the
assassination of JFK.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
He felt as though that that, you know, back into
the left with a supruder film. He felt like that
that was evidence of a second shooter. And listen, I'm
gonna I'm going to drop a bombshell here in a
moment that a lot of people have heard rumored over
the years. They didn't really know about it or what
(28:14):
the source of it was, but I will tell you
that he felt so strongly about this, and you had
mentioned earlier that it came about in the wake of
you know, him looking at things and him believing I
think initially, like as Americans, we we all want to
(28:36):
believe that what our government is telling us is the truth.
That what we are we shouldn't believe our lying eyes,
you know, as it comes down to it, that we
should believe what they're telling us. Doctor Weck saw things
(28:59):
in that he literally bore witness to that no other
person had ever been allowed to see. And he came
to some conclusions that in the end absolutely or the
driving force why he rendered this opinion regarding JFK as
a falsehood. Dave, I've never been to France, but I
(29:41):
have a desire to go to the Louver because I
would love to see the Mona Lisa. I think that
that would be really, really cool. But can you imagine
if you go to the Louver and you're standing in
front of the Mona Lisa, which is behind thick glass, which
by the way, has has been you know, attacked over
(30:03):
the past few years by people throwing paint on it
and all that nonsense. Can you imagine what it would
be like to have somebody that's got a big ring
of keys in her hand and they walk out to
you and say, hey, we want to take you behind
the wall. Here. We're gonna pull the Mona Lisa out
from its its place this perch. Here, We're going to
(30:26):
actually let you see it, because what I've been told,
when you walk in, it's it's behind thick glass. It's
it's very dark, you know, because they're trying to protect it.
But can you imagine what that would be like? Or
can you imagine going to the Sistine Chapel and they say, dude,
we've got a scaffel, a scaffold for you. Here, we're
going to set it up. Here's a magnifying glass. We're
(30:48):
going to let you climb up there and look at
this beautiful detail on the ceiling. Can you imagine what
that would be like. Sarah Weck was a person that
out of every he was chosen and was provided access
to the National Archives relative to the JFK assassination. And
(31:10):
he's one of the first person that actually saw the
color photography from the autopsy. He got to examine a
lot of the documents that were there. But you know,
the curious thing that doctor Weck wanted to see and
was told would be there, And certainly as a forensic pathologist,
(31:32):
you can appreciate why he would want to see this item.
He goes to look for it and it ain't there.
Sarah Weck is the person that actually discovered the JFK's
brain was missing. I want you just to step back
just for a second and imagine that you're at this
(31:55):
like confluence in history, all right, and you go into
the National Archives and they tell you that the former
president of the United States who was murdered in front
of hundreds of people, that we've got all of this,
(32:16):
you know, all of these artifacts from this Let's I
don't know, Dave. Could we say that it's one of
the seminal events in American history, would you margin?
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Would you concur with that in world history?
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yes, the assassination of President John Fitzderald Kennedy in November
twenty second, nineteen sixty three is a moment in time
historically speaking, that people in the future are going to
look back and say, that's when the United States government
was no longer relevant.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Yeah. Yeah. And to further prove your point, he's this
man is brought into into this environment and there's a
log list. You know, it's like an evidence log list. Yeah,
(33:06):
we got you know, right right here? Yeah, yeah, it's
right here. Okay. And doctor Weck had a very distinctive
voice when he would talk, and he's very intense when
he'd look at you, you know, as he's talking to you.
You know you yeah, couldn't I know, He's like, hey, hey,
you know, where is.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
It, Clara Beller? Where's the beef?
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Exactly? Where is the brain? How can you the single
most critical piece of evidence, mind you, because this is
literally what is up to as a kill shot all right,
it ain't there. What happened to it? And when this
information comes out, you know, it's a firestorm. And you know,
(33:49):
if you don't believe me, I mean again, don't believe me,
do your own research, go out there and look. And
this is it's a seminal moment.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
That's why I say history will reflect on this. That's
the and became irrelevant as a government because they a
lied to the American people. You know, we are not
a democracy. We are a representative republic, meaning you and
I have a representative that is in Washington, d C.
And the House of Representatives that is our guy. And
(34:18):
call your guy and he doesn't know. And I mean
that in the plural mankind thing. Whoever is your representative,
they ought to know or be able to get you
the answers of these things. And when you ask questions
about the assassination of the President of the United States
of America and look at the twelve years after his
assassination and what took place, And if every representative doesn't
(34:39):
know the answer to what took place in our government,
that tells you everything you need to know.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
The brain is gone. Who fired Joe? Who got fired
for that?
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Exactly? And you know, I can only imagine that that
and there were other things that he that were absent
as well, but.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
Destroyer get rid of evidence to cover up the crime.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
And you know, he's the one sniffing, sniffing this thing
out and looking at it, uh and and thinking, you know,
all along he's probably thinking, Okay, we're we're being we're
being lied.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
To over over over all of this.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
And interestingly enough, you know Arlen Spector, who headed up
you know, he was like the legal counsel relative to
the Warren Commission. You know, he's he's a Pennsylvania product
as well, and you know, for years, you know what,
and he bumped you know, they bumped heads with one another,
(35:43):
I think, you know, geographic proximity obviously, but they were
such high profile and polarizing characters that it did interesting
that both of these people, you know, became uh became entangled.
I think that they kind of settled their differences after
a while. But you know, when you look at you know,
some of the some of the cases that come to
(36:05):
mind with with doctor weck he he he actually you know,
offered commentary on the death of Elvis Presley and particularly
I think resulting from the drugs. You know that that
h that Elvis was provided with uh Scarsdale diet. You know, yeah,
he was involved with that. He offered he did testimony
(36:28):
a trial relative to Class vound Bulau.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
I did know that, Sonny von Buloh yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
And so you know, the list goes on and on.
And he even offered opinions about you know, O. J. Simpson,
uh and uh, you know, and also Michael Jackson. So
he's got you know, this wide ranging look. Some people say, Okay,
he was a celebrity pathologist. I don't. I don't necessarily
(36:54):
concur with with that assessment. I think that in in times,
in terrific times, you need a voice that is that's
a balanced voice. I think that is a critical voice, uh,
that can step in into the gap and interpret these
things that other people are not necessarily equipped to do with.
(37:16):
And I think we laid the foundation talking about at
least academically. And he's not a person that sat back
on his laurels and never did anything. You know. One
of the most beautiful things that that he was able
to create, and his living legacy is actually going to
be uh the Sarah Wick Institute, you know that exists
at at Ducane and it offers continuing education, you know,
(37:38):
in in forensic science uh and the and it's combined,
interestingly enough, with their law school in addition to that.
And so he's this school and one of my one
of my dear friends, uh is heads up the forensics
program there. Uh. And she's a brilliant DNA scientist and
(38:05):
she's you know, I have a little bit of insight,
you know, into what that dynamic was like with doctor Weck.
And you know, she has gone on and on about
the mind that he possessed. You know that you sit
there and you can have these conversations with him, and
he's up in age, you know, at this point, and
he's still he's still firing on all cylinders.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
Isn't that great?
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Yeah? Yeah, it really is. And I think that it's
it's important, just just for a moment, and I think
that I would I would really like to kind of
close things out by, you know, kind of talking about
some of some of his accomplishments, because it's certainly a
fascinating life. I think that if I could, uh, you know,
(38:49):
launch off this mortal coil at the end of my
life with a third of his accomplishments, it would be
quite remarkable. But you know, just to set this in perspective,
doctor Weck, over the course of his career, this man
(39:12):
did over twenty one thousand, twenty one thousand autopsies Dave,
he consulted get Ready for this one, and on over
forty two thousand additional post mortem examinations and including He's
(39:36):
traveled all over the world rendering opinions. And we're talking
about things like war crimes and things like this that
you and I, hey, and I think that doctor Weck
actually did things that many of us will never even
know about, where he came in and consulted in cases
that were you know, that came about as a result
of humanitarian crises. Because that's you know, it's kind of
the heart that he had. He you know, he's written,
(40:02):
i think in all, close to seven hundred professional publications.
He's either the editor or the co editor of over
forty eight books. He's written multiple non fiction books, and
(40:23):
president former president American College of Legal Medicine, Academy and
the Academy. I imagine this. He was actually president of
American Academy of Forensic Science. He'd been board certified as
a pathologist, anatomically, clinically and forensics. He's a Fellow of
the College of American Pathologist, American Society of Clinical Pathologist,
(40:47):
and a member of the National Association of Medical Examiners.
He wrote he actually wrote a memoir, The Life and
Death of Cyril Wegg, Memoir of American of America's most
controversial forensic pathologist. And of course he's he is a
(41:08):
major contributor to a book on the JFK assassination. And
you know, I'm not getting a nickel for this, but
I would strongly urge anybody that has an opportunity to
watch Oliver Stones produced multi part series on the JFK Assassination.
I think it's probably on Prime. There's an entire episode
(41:32):
of that dedicated to Cyril Wack. Oh wow, and it's
absolutely fascinating.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Day Well, Sarah Wick wrote a book, you know, the
JFK Assassination Dissected.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Yeah, yeah, and that's the one I was referring to. Yeah,
I'm sorry the name escaped me.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
But analysis by forensic pathologist Cyril Wacked. You can get
it on a paper book. It's available. And again, not
plugging or not shilling for anybody here, just sharing that
while many of us think certain things based on whatever
entertainment thing we've seen without any background in it, without
you know, without being able to pass a basic science
(42:07):
and biology class in high school, we think we are
somehow capable of commenting on what took place in the
autopsy of the president. And yet here we go. We
have the opportunity to read what some of the best
minds have to say about the subject matter, and I
encourage you to read it before you yell out your opinion.
(42:28):
Read what somebody who knew what they were talking about said.
I think that's a good place to start in Sarah
Weack when you come to the jffgass aascination. I believe
Sarah Weck is a great place to start. I have
read his books.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
Well, and look, I think there's not too much more
that in my own feeble way I could ever say
about Cirriah Weck. I had to take a moment to
honor him on our program because this is the passing
(43:02):
of a giant in his field. His mark will be
forever present on all of our lives, and he is
somebody I think that we should in some ways aspire
to be. And what I mean the one characteristic that
I would you know that I would encourage my son
(43:24):
even always always seek knowledge and always seek the truth.
Try to find the truth in your own way. Come
to terms with that. Don't don't be one of these
people that is just going to go along with the
flow and simply say, oh, well the crowd said it,
I'm going with it. That's not the type of person
he was. Doctor Weck was a one of a kind
(43:47):
out there. So I just want to take a moment
and first off acknowledge his passing, and certainly the Weck family,
the Dokaine family, and all of his extended friends and colleagues,
my deepest sympathies to them because he's a man. He
is a man that has impacted so many of us
(44:11):
in the field of forensic science. He passed away peacefully
on May thirteenth, twenty four. Here's the U, doctor way.
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks
Host
Joseph Scott Morgan
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