July 30, 2025 • 57 mins
The sentencing of Bryan Kohberger allowed for the release of documents that until now have been kept from the public.
Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack discuss the case and examine the injuries suffered by Madison Mogen, Kaylee Goncalves, Xana Kerodle, and Ethan Chapin. This episode covers the injuries suffered by Maddie and Kaylee, best friends, murdered by Bryan Kohberger on the third floor of 1122 King Road.
Tomorrow's episode will cover Xana Kernodle and Ethan Chapin.
Transcribe Highlights
00:00:00.00 Introduction
00:02:15.60 Moscow Police files open for public
00:05:38.39 Kohberger "selfie"
00:09:44.63 Alivea Goncalves Impact statement
00:15:04.65 Warning about the damage done to Maddie and Kaylee
00:20:44.26 Prosecutors believe the "target" was Maddie or Kaylee
00:24:17.15 Wounds indicate Maddie was defending herself
00:29:11.95 Injuries to liver and lung
00:35:28.11 Very Sharp instrument
00:39:24.33 Kaylee was trapped between Maddie and the wall
00:44:08.05 Pink Blanket covering Maddie and Kaylee
00:49:37.59 Hand wrapped around Handle of Ka-Bar
00:54:58.43 Very vascular area struck
00:56:42.98 Conclusion
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Quality bars with Joseph's gotten more. If I say eleven
inches give or take zero point eight seven five or
if I say seven inches, which is actually eighteen centimeters,
(00:21):
or if I say three hundred and eleven grams, which
actually equals eleven point two ounces. Those numbers are very random.
They don't necessarily mean much. But if I were to
tell you that eleven specifically eleven point eight seven five
(00:45):
inches is the overall length of a knife with a
blade length of seven inches or eighteen centimeters, or if
I tell you that the weight is eleven point two ounces.
If I tell you that and I used to work kbar,
(01:09):
what comes to mind? I can tell you a single
itch weapon that was used to destroy four lives. I'm
Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks Brother Dave. We've
(01:30):
got information. We've got information that has come to us
now since the unseiling of these court documents in the
Idaho four case.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Was there anything in what we saw? Now? They being
the police, the Moscow Police Department, has released three hundred
pages of files from the case. You know, there was
the gag order and so a lot of things were
used to getting We didn't have leading up to the
case hitting trial, and then after Coberger pled guilty, we
(02:08):
got some information, and then after sentencing, within hours they
had released three hundred pages that includes now a narrative
version of what took place from Dylan Mortensen, what she
heard one of the surviving roommates, and based on what
she told police officers, Joe were able to put together
(02:31):
a timeline of inside the house that night, when things happened,
and to a degree, how they happened and in what
order they seem to happen. We still don't know who
was the target, although I believe Bill Thompson, the prosecutor,
(02:53):
suggested that it was either Matty Mogan or Kaylee Gonzavez
as the target. Do you concur with that based.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
On yeah, I would hate say. And here here's why.
Just on the surface, I think, what kind of perpetrator
would go to the most distal area of the house
where there is no potential way to escape other than
diving out of a third story window or coming back
(03:23):
down the staircase. It's a high risk proposition, I think.
So I think that you have to factor that into
the thought process relative to the perpetrator's destination, you know,
because it's a terminal destination in more ways than one, obviously,
but it is the terminus of where you can egress too,
(03:49):
you know that. That's kind of my thought about it.
And I believe that the perpetrator, the now convicted for
time five time over felonious perpetrator. Uh, that's what he
had on his mind. I think that, uh, that he
had observed, probably on multiple multiple occasions, which I have
(04:14):
put that forth now for a couple of years, he
had a point of observation, a hide if you will,
where everything played out fantastically in his mind, uh, in
the dark, like the the slippery, slithering reptile that he
has proven to be, and he could just sit there
(04:37):
and watch. The only thing he was missing was the
hot sun and a rock because you know he's exothermic, uh,
you know, just sitting there watching by this time with
those those hollow, lifeless eyes, in the words of Captain
Quint from Jaws, like doll's eyes, you think that it's
(04:59):
not living until it bite in their roll over white.
I think that that's the best descriptor. So, yeah, I've
compared him now to reptile and to a great white chart. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
When Kayley Gonzava's mom and dad have been the most
vocal of all the parents, and now having seen them
and what we now are getting ready to talk about
some of the information that we have found out. I
(05:33):
never thought much of the picture of the selfie that
Cobert took lefter nine am the morning after this took place,
and it was Steve Gonzavez that said that was his marker.
You know that was his because he had gone back
over and we know that he did the murders between
(05:54):
four and four twenty in the morning. It had gotten
all the way back to his apartment, and then he
came back buy around nine o'clock and didn't see any cops,
didn't see anything going on out there, and so he
goes back and takes that selfie like a victory picture.
He'd gotten away with it. He thought he had gotten
away with it at that point, and I thought, I'm
(06:18):
thankful that we've had the chance. I'm thankful the families
did show up and speak at sentencing. The impact statement
was very impactful. I do think that if Kayleie Benzave's
older sister, Olivia, Yes, if she wants to run for office,
I volunteer to be here campaign manager. I believe, oh
(06:40):
my gosh, they actually her as much as anyone else.
But you know, so many times, Joe, when we are
going to speak, whether it's in front of a group
of business people or at church or a civic whatever
it is, we rehearse how we're going to do it,
and it never comes out that way. Sometimes when we
have an argument with a spouse or a boss, we'll
(07:03):
go through all the things we're going to say, and
we get it in our mind of what we're going
to say and how we want to say it. But
then usually it's with a boss, when we get in
front of them, none of it comes out that way
and they end up getting what they want anyway. In
this particular case, Olivia Gonzalvez kicked it through the upraids.
She says, you what most of us were feeling.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
And I have to tell you, I love the fact
that you mentioned interacting with other people, and you know,
like you have a planned like at the end of
maybe a commentary, that you're going to offer them something,
there's a question and answer period. She knew that that
was not going to happen. It's a different process what
(07:47):
she went through. And how many, how many times, Dave,
And I'm speaking to myself here too, because I know
that if you've ever been in an argument, and I
would bet dollars to donuts set our friends out there
have experienced the same thing. How many times over the
course of our lives have we wished that following maybe
(08:09):
an argument, a blow up, whatever it is, an hour later,
you think, God, I wish i'd said this. She lift
it all on the table. Oh yeah, I think that
there was within good taste. I think that now it
had just been her and him and I'm projecting here
in a room together, it would have been a bit
(08:31):
more salty, you know, with him strapped to a chair
somewhere in her talking to him. But in that and
it's a for those that have never been to court,
this is the other added bit to this that's so
fascinating to me. The first time, obviously I testified in court,
(08:52):
I'd never been to a foreign country. Never. I didn't
travel abroad until I was older. For if you want
to come close to that and go to court, if
you've never been to an alien landscape or foreign landscape,
go to court. The environment is different, the language is different,
(09:14):
the way you present yourself is different. It all seems odd.
That's the best way I can describe it. And I
don't know what her experience has been in the past
of walking into a court room. I have no idea
if this was her first time. Oh my lord, she
walked into this alien, odd world where there's a certain
(09:35):
level of decorum, where you have to obey the rules.
Everything that comes out of your mouth is you know,
has to be within certain parameters. And boy, she has
laid it all on the table. And it wasn't like
disorganized verbal vomit.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
It was ordered.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
It was sharply pinned. It was right to the point, Dave,
I'm the point.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
I've actually been to court where I had to speak.
The first time I realized I learned. I didn't know this.
I didn't know that that people who took an oath,
you know, to tell the truth lied in court. I
didn't know that until my first sign in court and
the police officer lied, and I said, that crushed me.
(10:25):
It changed everything about how I speak in public that one.
And I'm glad it happened when it did because I
learned a valuable lesson. I'm so proud of the way
she handled it, because it was better than I would
have done, and she said everything that most that a
lot of us were feeling. I felt like she was
speaking not just for her sister, but for everybody who
has Like you and I have talked about how close
(10:45):
we feel to this case because we have children in
that frame, you know, and you you're in that you're
on campus with these kids every day. They could have
been your students and as well as he could have
been your student.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. And I was having this
discussion the other day, and I have to say this
on a side before we go to other topics, but
did you know that's that that is actually an indwelling
fear that some of us in my field have. It's
(11:20):
one of those things that we don't talk about it
obviously in front of students. Here I am talking about
it in front of the entire world now, But it's
one of those things that if you're having a cup
of coffee with one of your colleagues and you're in
some kind of criminal justice program, forensics program, or even
if you're at the police academy. That topic has consistently
(11:43):
come up through my professional life, whether it was working
in the field and instructing people that were coming into
my field, or whether it was in an academic setting.
I wonder who's in the audience. I wonder who's in
the audience, who's out there that's there to glean information
and that they're going to take it away. The professors
(12:05):
at the Sails, there's no way they could have predicted,
no way, you know, you know, they for all of
their you know, eccentricities and everything else that comes along
with academia. They're in that particular field. They're not training
these malevolent and he is malevolent, Okay, I'll put it
(12:26):
to you that way. They're not training malevolent beings in
this context to go out and beat the system or
do whatever it is that they're doing. This is a
uh a, just this horrible entity that kind of entered
into their environment up there. And then when he left,
(12:49):
he left, and.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Hell followed after.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
David. I got to tell you, I'm glad that you
brought up Olivia. And the reason is it is not
just what she said she was being driven by. There
was a spark within her, and that spark I think
to a great degree that the families have always known
a bit more information than we've been privy to as well.
(13:26):
They should. They haven't known everything, Okay, understand that, but
let's face it, families went to funeral homes. Okay, let's
just put that out on the table now. Whether or
not they actually saw remains at funeral homes or if
it was something that was passed through the family. That
(13:48):
kind of thing gets into the circulatory system of a family,
you know, because I've been parts of cases where we
didn't tell the family everything, but then they go to
the funeral home and they are told by the mortuary
attendant and by the funeral directors. Funeral directors don't work
(14:08):
for the state or for any kind of agency. They
work for the family. And the family asked them a question,
they're going to say, well, yeah, this is the reality
of what you're dealing with here. They knew, and Dave,
I submit to you that it's because of that knowledge.
And obviously the most glaring thing is she's missing her sister,
She's absent and we'll never return. That's what that the
(14:32):
genesis of what you saw the other day with her
in her impact statement, that's what that was driven by Dave.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
And she did a great job. She she was articulate,
maintained herself, and I'm thankful that she had the time,
and I'm thankful that Judge let her speak. They have
a right to, you know. I want us to be
able to walk away from this and never talk about
(15:00):
the guy again. Not because well, you're about to hear friends,
even if you've heard it covered. I want to prepare you.
There were certain aspects of what I know now that
I didn't know when I was listening to Olivia Gonzavez
give her impact statement, Things that I found out later
(15:21):
that day, that night, in the next day about the
damage one person did to a community, a country, parents, grandparents,
in particular, the families of Madison Mogan, Kaylee Gonzavez, Xana Cronodle,
and Ethan Chapin. When he went into that house. We
(15:44):
now know that Brian Coberger entered the home through the
sliding glass door near the kitchen. He went straight up
the stairs. You alluded to this a minute ago. He
went straight up the stairs to the third floor. Now
the kitchen is on this second floor. Yep. He went
up the flight of stairs to the top floor, where
(16:05):
there is no exit except going up and down the
same flight of stairs. He knew where he was going
because there were people on the second floor, and if
he were to just go in there to riak havoc
on everybody, he would have started at the first available
door and gone from there. But Joe, he didn't do that.
He went up the stairs to Madison Mogan's room.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Yeah he did. And I think that you know, you
you would ask, you would ask a question at some
point in tom You know Maddie, Maddie was there obviously
and was still at school. Kayley had already moved out.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yes, yeah, she was starting her job and had a
new and that's why she was there. She came back
to show Maddie her new car.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
I think the most privative thing that you asked in
our conversation was did he know that she was there?
Did he expect to go up there and find one
and instead there were two? That's that's the question that
even even those detectives, and they gave these statements, even
(17:28):
those detectives could not firmly answer, you know, they couldn't
hold forth and say yeah, definitively that that this was
in fact the target. They kind of hedged their bets
and said that either it could have been either Maddie
or Kaylee, and that's I think that for a lot
(17:50):
of people out there that have been following this horrible
set of circumstances, all this all this quadruple homicide, that's
the big question. You know. They want to know why,
but they want to know who. I think who was it?
But you know, in our efforts, and I think that
you and I have done a pretty damn good job
(18:11):
here of honoring the victims. Because I'm going to tell you,
you and I are going to fight if we mentioned
if either one of us mentioned his name, because I'm
not saying it again.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
I know I accidentally did a minute ago, and I thought,
I can't believe I did that. Man.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Yeah, And I am just I'm so sick to my
back teeth of him. And I do want to talk
about them. And I can't sit here and espouse what
their lives were like, or their childhood was like, or
anything like that. I'm forensic scientists, and so I want
to talk about the havoc that was That was, you know,
(18:52):
the havoc that he left behind the evidence of it.
That's the interesting thing, isn't it. We And in crumsing
and people talk about evil all the time. They talk
about it in these kind of nebulous terms, right, I
(19:13):
would submit to you that people such as myself, other
people that work in my field, we actually see the
remnant of evil that grim harvest, if you will, those
things that are left behind, a lot of people think
they know evil until they walk into something like this,
and most people can't. I think that people that want
(19:36):
to beat their chest over how evil the world is
and how evil people are and evil this and evil,
that they don't really understand depth and breadth until they
walk into I guarantee you those police officers understand it,
and they will for the rest of their lives. And
this is going to be talked about. I mean there
will be these police officers will go to conferences, they
(19:57):
will talk about what it was like to work this
case and how all they worked this case. But for
the Tom Bean, let's let's kind of go go down
the road here, Dave, what what what say you about this?
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (20:11):
My biggest concern was not concerned. My biggest question was
again back to that targeted person, because, according to Prosecutor
Bill Thompson, they the prosecutors believed that it was either
Matti Mgan or Kalligan's office were the target. Now, Kaylee
was not there on campus anymore. She had already moved out,
cleared out her room. She was only there to visit
her lifelong body Matty Mogan, who was still in school,
(20:35):
and she was showing her car and they went out,
you know that, because Mattie was getting ready to go
home for Thanksgiving. If you remember, we had that break
coming up. This was before the Thanksgiving break. And anyway,
when Coberger comes up the stairs, we only know that
he went to the third floor first, and that Madison
(20:57):
Mogan was probably attacked based on To be honest with you,
we know more from Steve Gonzavas than we know from
a lot of the stuff that was filed by police.
He was able to put some things together about the attack,
the actual physical attack that took place. Now, being familiar
(21:21):
with college level college and college age people, we know
that Kaylee and Maddy had gone out that evening, got
home around two o'clock. You know, they stopped at the
food truck before then, and so by four o'clock in
the morning, they were pretty crashed out. You know, they
were crashing out best friends in the same bed because
again Maddy didn't live there. I mean, Kaylee had already
moved out, so they're both in Matty's bed. When Coberger
(21:45):
comes up the stairs. We know that Dylan Mortenson, Bethany Funk,
Dana Kernodle are awake. We know they're all awake because
we know Xana Cronodle had just gotten her foo ude
from Jack in the box delivered. Ethan was probably crashed out.
(22:05):
So Coberg, your cut b K, goes up the stairs.
He attacks Madison Mgen in her bed based on the
injuries that Madison Mgen has. Joe, tell me what took place?
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Well, first off, do you remember I opened the show
talking about the dimensions of the k bar. We have
to understand this is a combat knife and it's by
knife standards compared to modern knives. It's very heavy. So
if you have enough strength to wiel this thing, just
the transfer of energy from your arm to that knife,
(22:41):
or from your hand to that knife, it's going to
be devastating. And I can tell you this just based
upon what my experience with the k bar, because Kimmy
bought me one when all of this kicked off, she said,
you need this, you need it for you know, demonstrative purposes.
You know when you're on TV and all these things.
I'm thankful she did because it really gave me a
(23:02):
sense holding this thing and dave that blade right out
of the box. And still to this day I have
not I have not stoned displayed at all. It came
out of the box razor sharp, and I mean literally,
I remember taking this knife, and I'm not the most
(23:26):
hairsuit person on the planet, but I took it and
drugged the leading edge of the blade across where the
base of my hand attaches to my wrist, and it
shaved the hair right off of my wrist. And so
with that said, this thing was ready to go right
(23:49):
out of the box. When you look at what the
detectives are now telling us about about Maddie's wounds, they're very,
very distinctive. She's got defensive wounds on her forearms and hands.
(24:11):
And so the first indicator here, the first bit of
significant information I'd like to pass on to everybody, is
that when an individual is being attacked and they go
to what's referred to in NiFe or sword play to parry,
to parry an aggressor, which means to defend or to
(24:34):
to you know, try to block, She's got insults to
both her forearms and to her hands, which gives us
an idea that she was not asleep obviously, and it
wasn't just a matter of her grabbing the knife, Dave.
(24:54):
It was a matter of her actually taking almost making
a blocking maneuver where she's throwing her arm up like this,
and that's that's how you're getting this now. I don't
know if she was trying to strike at him in
raising her arm. You know, if you if you think
about like your hand, you're in a boxer's pose. I
(25:15):
want everybody to go into a boxer's pose, your fists
or clenched, and if you take your right hand, if
you're right handed or left handed, take your left hand,
and you do what boxers would call a right cross,
where you're going at this at the side of someone's
jaw and crossing in front of their face. That would
be like a perry to a knife move. So if
(25:36):
that knife is impacting on her arm, she's not asleep.
She doesn't she's not in a resting position where her
arms are at her side. I don't know how you
sleep day, but I'm a side sleeper. That's the way
I sleep. On my side I'm not going to have
immediate an immediate re I will have a reaction after
(25:59):
that pain center fire, but I'm going to come. I'm
going to suddenly animate at that point in time, and
I'm going to try to fend off the person that's
doing this great harm to me.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
And there is evidence that at least she tried to
fend her attacker off, but of course it was it
was for naught. Now, just so that we understand she
she would have had some level of an awareness that
(26:30):
this was happening to her. Now, let's just suppose that
Maddie was the first one attacked. That doesn't necessarily mean
that Kayley is going to wake up immediately, because I
don't you know, we've both had you know, young adult
teenagers in our in our houses. You can rattle them
(26:55):
and shake them all you want to, but just because
you do it first time doesn't mean they're going to
wake up. So, supposing that Maddie was the first that
was attacked, those paint centers are firing, and she's trying
to fend him off. She doesn't succeed at that at
that effort, because he was able to stab her. I
(27:16):
don't think these were in sized wounds because they're too deep.
What the police do relate is that she sustained lacerations
to her liver and to her and to her left lung.
Now understand me, because it sounds like I'm talking on
(27:39):
both sides of my mouth. Because we actually did a
special addition on body bags about sharp force injuries, and
I talked about the delineation between sharp force and blunt
force injuries. And we're going to get into some blunt
force stuff here in a moment. But understand that when
when a forensic with theologist actually begins to talk about
(28:02):
the liver in particular, there's a couple of odd terms
they'll use for for the liver particularly, they'll use the
term fracture and they'll use the term laceration even though
it is a stab wound. And that's why it sounds like,
you know, you're saying two things that can't don't seem
to marry up.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
We did this, you go, and we did the show
before about you know, the chart force trauma. I didn't know.
I mean, I thought laceration to me, that's a slice
wound that opens up the skin. And because that's just
what it sounds like.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Well, the last I know, but that comes from most
of the time, lacerations are associated with blunt force trauma,
like you get a lacerated liver also if you're in
a car accident. Okay, that's not what they're saying. They're
saying that she was stabbed and she stabbed into her liver,
and they're referring to this liver injury. Now we're not
(28:55):
talking about the exterior of her body. And if you'll
place your right hand at the base of the right
aspect of your rib cage, this is where that injury
to Mattie was. Your liver sits right underneath that last
rib on the right side. Okay, it's not beyond the
realm of possibility the liver would be injured when you've
(29:17):
got this kind of violent knife attack that's going on.
But for whatever reason they'd refer to this as a
laceration to her liver, he will have also whenever we
actually do get to see the actual autopsy report, if
that happens, that they'll talk about the track of the wound,
(29:40):
how deep it actually goes, what little landmarks within liver
it impacted. Liver is a very dangerous area to insult
and the reason is is that next to the brain,
I would say, it is probably the most vascular organ body.
(30:01):
So if liver gets damaged, you're going to bleed out,
and you'll bleed out abdominantly. But then there's something interesting
that happens they talk about, and I'm assuming that based
upon what we're hearing, that the liver and this injury
(30:22):
to the lung, and it's the left lung. So you've
gone from the right lower side of the body or
the right it would be the right upper quadrant of
the abdomen. Okay, it's where the liver is. Now you
move over to the left lung, which is on the
other side of the mid line, and up the left
(30:44):
lung has been penetrated with this weapon. It's passed through there.
So now you've got this horrible injury to the liver,
which depended pound upon how broad the opening is and
the abdomen she's bleeding out from. Okay, because blood is
(31:07):
still coursing through her body at this point in time,
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Go ahead, David, Now, how how quickly based on these
because we know she's got the injuries to her forearms
in her hands, so she's blocking how quickly would she
become incapacitated after getting stabbed in the liver and the lung,
would she fall out?
Speaker 1 (31:27):
It's not. And again this is an old saying. It's
not the one thing, it's it's the sum total of
the whole. And so once you've got this going on
with the liver, if her left lung is has been
injured as well, she begins to probably aspirate blood and
(31:50):
expirate blood. So this, uh, this happens commonly. She'll be
taken on blood into her airway and she's coughing and
hacking at this point in time, and it will be
very frothy blood that would be coming from her nose
and her mouth. But here's the thing. When you're at
(32:11):
the scene and there, if I remember correctly and correct
me if I'm wrong, I believe that that the uh,
their faces, both Mattie and Kayley are covered in blood.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
It's gonna be hard to like fully appreciate because with
with with Mattie, she's got a very nasty gash that
is also extending from her eye to her nose. So
(32:47):
you're gonna have blood that is profusely kind of running
down her face. At the same time, if anyone has
ever sustained a facial injury, like to your forehead or
your eyebrow. It's already dark in this room, Dave. You're
already disoriented. If you've had a few to drink at night,
you're already, you know, kind of out of whack. Anyway.
(33:11):
Now you're blinded, Okay, And I don't mean blinded like
you're you're you've been, uh, your eyes have been you know,
Uh lasparate himself. I'm just talking about you've got blood
that's flowing in and plus your h you're expirating blood
out of your nose, in your mouth. That's a tough
(33:32):
tough position to be in. And she's a little video
thing man. And to try to fend off uh this reptile,
this gigantic man reptile uh is is very very difficult.
It's her death would not have been if you're if
(33:54):
you're looking to me as a death investigator, UH, try
to assuage any kind of fears that you might have
had that her her her death was quick and painless.
I can't do that here. I can't and be truthful
(34:14):
with you. This is something that was that was painful.
It's something that she had an awareness of and of
course we know that that, contrary to earlier reports, that
her death was not in fact while she was asleep.
The other thing that they were able to to ascertain,
(34:39):
and it's probably a combination of all of the victims,
they knew that they were dealing with a single edged
weapon and that, as I stated earlier, Dave to sing
right of the box, they actually believe that this is
very sharp. Many times with sharp force injuries, you'll get
this kind of you'll get this kind kind of blunted
(35:02):
when it's pressed down on the skin. If a blade
is not real sharp, they'll be there'll be a tearing
that takes place with skin that you would not normally see,
particularly when you're talking about in sized wins, which are slices,
not stabs. They concluded that this was a very sharp instrument.
(35:23):
That means that the edges the edges when you look
at the edges themselves. And one of the things that's
kind of fascinating that people don't know that we do
in the morgue after we clean off an injury, like
we wash down the body. Okay, do you know that
we will actually take scotch tape and place it in
bridge across the knife injuries and pull it together like this,
(35:46):
it's not gaping the entire time. We'll actually take photographs
with tape off and with tape on, and it gives
you an idea. You can really see the definitive line.
Because when you're looking at it, I know you've heard
me say four use the term of the winking eye.
It just looks like this gaping thing. But when you
take tape and place it across it and pull those
(36:07):
edges or margins together, you can really appreciate it. I
would imagine they did something similar to that in the Morgue.
They were able to appreciate those little margins. That's one
of the reasons they were able to conclude that this
is a very sharp knife. Also, if this knife passed
through into her long Dave, here's something else that's taken place.
(36:30):
This blade is passing through bone. Understand that just you
have to understand that you cannot unless you hit it perfectly,
and the blade is turned so that it is in
the horizontal plane as opposed to the vertical plane, which
(36:51):
almost seems abnormal, it would have notched the bone. There's
a high probability of that. If not in Mattie's case,
certainly in maybe some of the other cases along the way,
they were also able to determine this very sharp knife.
They did conclude that this is not a serrated knife,
that this is a smooth edge as opposed to serrated
(37:12):
you think about steak knife, for instance. And I worked
a lot of those cases. The edges are not uh,
they've almost got a forensic pathologists use the term scalloped.
They have a scalloped appearance to them. You know, they're
kind of curved out in those areas. So I don't
think that that that's what they were dealing with. They
(37:35):
knew pretty quickly that this is a single edge blade
that was very sharp, and that it was that it
was certainly sufficient to the task, which of course, in
Mattie's case, led to a horrific, horrific end. Dave, you
(38:07):
have daughters. I have daughters. When they're little, I always
found we used to get kid. My youngest daughter, she
would come home from school and she'd say, I have
a new best friend. I was like, how can you
have a new best friend? What happened to the old
(38:29):
when others still my best friend? And I couldn't understand,
And my wife said, calm down, she's a girl.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
This is the way this operates.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
It's like, well a boy, if I have I had
a best friend when I was growing up. He was
like my best friend all the way through high school.
I mean, you know, I didn't have like multiple best friends.
Kaylee and Maddie were like best friends. I mean, it
wasn't like, well she's my best friend, she's my best friend.
It's like they're best friends. There's kind of a a
(39:00):
lot to kind of understand there, in a very tragic sense,
almost Shakespearean. I think.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
The Fly's family that they died together. Hayley's family talked
about Maddie as a sister.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
You know.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
That's what Olivia Gonzaba's talked about losing sisters. That they
were so tied together for so long that they were
members of each other's family. There was more than just
their you know, the friends. They were family. And that's
why the pain was so My heart hurts for the
(39:34):
family so much that I was thankful they got that.
I just say what they said. But when I was
reading over the police reports, Joe and I was trying
to map it out of my head. Clinically speaking, because
of having daughters in that age group where they My
house was the gathering house, and so both my daughters,
(39:57):
Hailey and Hannah both had their best buddies, always spending
it seemed, you know, and having knowing how girls are
and knowing how these two had been out that night,
and you can tell their closeness. I pictured them at
the food truck, just being pals, you know, and they
go in there and they're just being pals. And here
they are, and this horrific thing takes place. Maddie is incapacitated.
(40:21):
Kaylee is there, and you know, it was Steve Gonzabz.
It was Kaylee's father that I actually explained that his
daughter ended up trapped. And I couldn't quite grasp that
until I saw the reports because of where they were
in the bed Kaylee Gonzavez. As this attack began on Maddie.
(40:44):
Kaylee wakes up, but she is trapped between Mattie, who's
trying to fend off this attack, and the wall. Kaylee
is between Maddie and the wall on the bed. Imagine
what that was like. That's why I'm trying to get
an idea, Joe, of how how quickly would they become
incapacitated from the knife injuries, Maddie and then Kaylee. Because
(41:07):
there we're talking a very short window of time here.
We're not talking a long draw. We're not talking minutes.
We're talking minute sixty seconds. Is that enough for Maddie
for the attack to begin, her becoming incapacitated in the
attack on Kelley take place one minute forty five seconds.
What are we talking about here?
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Well, that's one of the questions people have thrown out
there many times. Is it possible? Is it possible for
this reptile to have entered this home and killed four
people in the short period of time? I believe it now, Yeah,
I do too, And I think, putting on my junior
(41:48):
psychology had here, I think that if you've got an
individual such as this that is in a heightened state
of arousal and you can't separate these two things, I
think are three things. Hatred, rage, and sexual fixation I
think existed and it's it's there's there's no force on
(42:13):
earth I think that can stop this, particularly in the
dead of night when you surprise somebody and this individual
has been fantasizing about this. That's that's the real deep
dive here. Isn't it. He's been fantasizing about this for
a protracted period of time, I think, and it's stewed.
It's stewed with anger and hatred, and and I think
(42:37):
it's it's something old timers just called bloodlust. I think
that's that's what's going on here. And if I could
go back for a second, there's one kind of little
interesting tidbit I think here from from what the detectives
have stated, is that they were found covered with a
(42:57):
blood soilk pink blanket. Now, you know, I'd like to
know more about the blanket. I'd like to know, you
know what, what the origin of that blanket is. I
want to know if somebody covered their bodies, or if
this reptile covered their bodies, and you know what, what
(43:19):
the purpose of that was, Because you know, I've seen
people like it seems one thing that most folks cannot
bear is to look at a dead body. You'd be surprised, Dave,
I think maybe you wouldn't. I don't know. I've made you,
I've made you jaded. I think there are a lot
of people that when we work cases and say they're outdoors,
(43:41):
people really take offense to see in an exposed body.
They can't stand it. They cast their eyes bepon it.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
They want us to.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Do something to cover the back of the body. Yeah,
and that's one of the that's what kind of prompted
the evolution of Well, there's two reasons, but that's what
kind of prompted the evolution of crime. See tents where
we could drop the sides. It almost looks like a
funeral tint, you know, the funeral tentts that you have
at gravesite. They look about those dimensions. And plus, we
(44:10):
don't want you see in what we're doing, you know,
inside of there, because it's none of you beeswax, because
we're collecting evidence within there. But also you get these
calls all the time, you know, why do you leave
their body out there so long? Well, we're working the case,
you know, right back at you. Why are you looking
if you find it that offensive? But that's not the
case within the house, you know, it's a protected environment.
(44:33):
So how did that blanket get onto the bodies? Whose
blanket was Well, we'd have to assume that it might
be Mattie's because she's still living there. But for all
I know, Katie might have brought a blanket with her,
my wife, my daughter. They both have favorite blankets that
no matter where we go, those blankets go with them everywhere.
(44:55):
I don't care. I'll I'll take an old burlap bag
and pull up on it. But you know, some people
take comfort in their particular blanket. But you know, that's
really kind of an interesting thing. And you had mentioned
how mister Gonzalveez God Blessing had mentioned that the k
was trapped, and just imagine being on this tiny surface
(45:18):
and you've got this animal that comes into the room,
and it's a grim reaper and he's wielding his sight
at this point in time, swinging it about in the
form of a knife. You hear a disturbance, maybe you
jolt awake, and the next thing you know, you feel
your pain center firing. You start to fight back. Your
(45:41):
best friend in the world is laying there. Maybe you
hear her expiating blood, struggling to breathe, gurgling, moaning, those
things that come along almost you know, I know you've
heard this term, but I'll throw it out there too,
And this is real. By the way, the death rattle,
there's a death rattle that comes on people in the throes.
(46:02):
You know you can tell that it's happening. I've had
countless people tell me about it over the years throughout
my career. And like I had said previously with Maddie,
this was not a quick death. She lingered for a bit.
I think this is not like, you know, someone has
(46:24):
been shot in the head and suddenly the lights, lights
are out, No one's at home. It's not like that.
This is not like that. But out of every victim
in this house, for whatever reason, which remains a mystery,
Kaylee's scene seems at least to have gotten the worst
(46:46):
of it. I've heard all manner things, some of it accurate,
some of it inaccurate about what these injuries were that
she had sustained. I'll go ahead and throw this number
(47:07):
at you, and this comes directly from the police. Twenty
stab wounds, Dave. When when an individual gets above like
ten or they hit ten a victim, that is it
really you know it? In my world, it makes us
really raise an eyebrow, okay, because we see when you
(47:34):
see this grotesque number and it's climbing. We're not talking ten,
We're not talking fifteen. We're talking at least twenty stab wounds.
You have to try to understand. You know, there needs
to be some explaining that goes on here, you know
what exactly why was so much anger and force directed
(47:58):
at this young woman. Because then after you get beyond
the twenty stab wines Dave, then the specter of disfigurement rises,
It kind of raises its ugly head along with it.
Everybody in my field, particularly if you've worked in major,
(48:21):
major areas, you work cases of disfigurement. It happens, and
it's generally either with a bludgeon like a blunt object,
or it's going to be with a knife. Most of
the time it's with sharp force. And when when you
think about disfigurement, it can come in any number of ways.
(48:41):
You can have people that have their faces slashed. You
can have elements of the face and the head cut
off that goes into disfigurement, and you can also have
blunt force trauma that comes along with that. And one
need not have have one need not have you know,
(49:06):
an iron pipe or a baseball bat to generate that.
You can actually generate, Dave, I don't know if you
know this. You can actually generate blunt force trauma with
a knife. If you're just imagine right now that you've
taken a roll of dimes or a roll of nickels,
and you've balled it up, You've rolled it up into
(49:27):
your fist. Well, suddenly your fist is twice as strong
as it normally would be, and it's carrying extra weight.
And if you're trying to get somebody to submit to
you and you're holding, say you're clutching a knife, it's
rolled up, you begin to pound on them with a
knife clenching. You're not using a blade here, understand, you're
(49:48):
using your fist. You're striking downward. And also, what can
cause a really nasty injury if I urge anybody that
hasn't seen and I think most people have that hasn't
seen an image of the cave look at it, because
it has got a guard, a handguard on this thing.
That could create some really odd injuries depended upon how
(50:15):
an individual is struck with it. And they're not going
to look like knife injuries. They're going to look like
something else. They're not going to have those really neat
edges to them like you see with the blade, the
cutting the business side of the blade. It's going to
have a more it's not a blunt object, but it
will have the margins will not if the handguard itself
(50:38):
breaks the skin, it's going to be a bit more
jagged in appearance. Here's another thing that people, I urge
you if you take a look at the Kbar knife
and look at it in its totality, particularly the handle.
The handle, I'm not really sure what the composite is.
(50:59):
I think in the past has been leather. That handle
is striped, and it's striped in the horizontal plane, so
you've got these ringlets that kind of run around it,
and they're furrowed. If the thing actually has furrows in
it so that you can grip it. The reason it's
made that way is like our fighting force, the Marine Corps.
(51:21):
Can you imagine being on some hell hole in the
South Pacific Island and you're fighting the Japanese. You're sweating,
right that handle that they that they introduced, and the
knife was introduced to the Marine Corps in nineteen forty two.
It prevents using from slipping in your hand, okay, if
(51:42):
you're wearing, if you're holding it with a bare hand,
and it's got a texture to it that almost feels
like a leather when you rub your hand, like unpolished leather. Almost.
It's not. It's like a rough swede kind of thing
that goes on there, but it's it actually has these
in the horizontal plane. It's got these ridges that are
cut into it. Now, I've heard that some of the
(52:06):
trauma that Kaylee had sustained had these kind of linear
marks to it, and I was and when I'm saying
this from the perspective of disfigurement, if she has sustained
blunt force trauma with this thing, I'm wondering if part
of the handle, perhaps just the force of it, you know,
(52:30):
kind of raining down on her, made contact and it
braided that area and it would leave behind that impression
that abraided impression, Dave.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
She had horizontal markings that they couldn't identify Iho State Police.
The detective actually talked about that there were injuries that
they could not identify or hadn't identified at the point
that we were reading the report. Doesn't mean they haven't
come up with an idea by now, but at the
(52:59):
point they wrote the report, they didn't know where they
came from. But I got to ask you a couple
of the questions, because all right, Kaylee has her fatal
injuries included left lung laceration, liver laceration, just like Maddie.
But then she also has two subdural bleeds and a
stab behind her clavicle which cut her subclavian vein and artery.
(53:24):
But there was the other idea of the asphyxial injuries,
and I put that together with Dylan Mortenson. Dylan Mortenson,
in her statement to police said she heard Kaylee scream
somebody's in the house. Now, we didn't hear that up
or at least I don't recall hearing that in any
(53:46):
of the reports we've done on this until I read
the report, and I actually went to the thirty second,
thirty third, and thirty fourth pages of the three hundred
and found Dylan Mortenson talking to two different police officers
and she mentioned that Kaylee she heard Kaylee, who she
thought was Kaylee, scream somebody's in the house. She said, scream,
(54:10):
somebody's in the house. And then she described hearing some
of the things. But now that I know that Dylan
Mortons didn't describe Kaylee screaming, now the gagging that we
had the injuries makes sense. They didn't make sense before
because Kaylee has injuries that are specific to her and
(54:32):
different from everyone else. But if she woke up and
she is screaming somebody's in the house, get help or whatever,
then yeah, her injuries are going to include gagging trying
to get her to shut up. I'm surprised he didn't
cut her throat, you know, but what damage he did?
Speaker 1 (54:47):
He got close, He got close, because you know you
were you alluded to these subclavian injuries.
Speaker 2 (54:55):
I don't know what is that? Why don't they write
out what these are for those of us who haven't
gone to medical to school.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
Well, so it's it's your clavical, it's your it's your
collar bone, you know which. Uh. I don't know about you.
I've broken my right one at some point in time,
painful injury. By the way. You've got you've got these
vessels that travel beneath the clavical hence sub claviing. Uh.
(55:24):
And you have veins and arteries, so you've got uh,
you've got a venus return, you have arterial delivery. And
both of these are very Uh. Either one of those
can portent a fatal event, So both of those could
be fatal. You know, I've been scratching my head over this,
(55:44):
this this idea that the police have put out, and
I know that this is coming from the forensic pathologist
uh that did the autopsies. Every one's bookan that there's
an element of asphyxia here. I am thinking at least
(56:05):
that the only way you can make this diagnosis is
by evidence of potential petiki perhaps, you know, you combine
that with the weight of the lungs, this sort of thing.
But she's undergoing this traumatic event, the horrific part in
(56:31):
all of it's horrific. But I think that one of
the real troubling things about this is that she is alive.
This was not again a sudden This is a torturous,
torturous death. There would have been an awareness again on
her part, as there was on Maddie's as well. Kayley's
(56:54):
may have lasted a bit longer and she did, you know,
fight back, you know, and you try to take some
kind of I don't know solace in that. I guess
I don't know that you can actually take solace in
something that horrific. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is
(57:15):
body backs
Quality bars with Joseph's gotten more. If I say eleven
inches give or take zero point eight seven five or
if I say seven inches, which is actually eighteen centimeters,
(00:21):
or if I say three hundred and eleven grams, which
actually equals eleven point two ounces. Those numbers are very random.
They don't necessarily mean much. But if I were to
tell you that eleven specifically eleven point eight seven five
(00:45):
inches is the overall length of a knife with a
blade length of seven inches or eighteen centimeters, or if
I tell you that the weight is eleven point two ounces.
If I tell you that and I used to work kbar,
(01:09):
what comes to mind? I can tell you a single
itch weapon that was used to destroy four lives. I'm
Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks Brother Dave. We've
(01:30):
got information. We've got information that has come to us
now since the unseiling of these court documents in the
Idaho four case.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Was there anything in what we saw? Now? They being
the police, the Moscow Police Department, has released three hundred
pages of files from the case. You know, there was
the gag order and so a lot of things were
used to getting We didn't have leading up to the
case hitting trial, and then after Coberger pled guilty, we
(02:08):
got some information, and then after sentencing, within hours they
had released three hundred pages that includes now a narrative
version of what took place from Dylan Mortensen, what she
heard one of the surviving roommates, and based on what
she told police officers, Joe were able to put together
(02:31):
a timeline of inside the house that night, when things happened,
and to a degree, how they happened and in what
order they seem to happen. We still don't know who
was the target, although I believe Bill Thompson, the prosecutor,
(02:53):
suggested that it was either Matty Mogan or Kaylee Gonzavez
as the target. Do you concur with that based.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
On yeah, I would hate say. And here here's why.
Just on the surface, I think, what kind of perpetrator
would go to the most distal area of the house
where there is no potential way to escape other than
diving out of a third story window or coming back
(03:23):
down the staircase. It's a high risk proposition, I think.
So I think that you have to factor that into
the thought process relative to the perpetrator's destination, you know,
because it's a terminal destination in more ways than one, obviously,
but it is the terminus of where you can egress too,
(03:49):
you know that. That's kind of my thought about it.
And I believe that the perpetrator, the now convicted for
time five time over felonious perpetrator. Uh, that's what he
had on his mind. I think that, uh, that he
had observed, probably on multiple multiple occasions, which I have
(04:14):
put that forth now for a couple of years, he
had a point of observation, a hide if you will,
where everything played out fantastically in his mind, uh, in
the dark, like the the slippery, slithering reptile that he
has proven to be, and he could just sit there
(04:37):
and watch. The only thing he was missing was the
hot sun and a rock because you know he's exothermic, uh,
you know, just sitting there watching by this time with
those those hollow, lifeless eyes, in the words of Captain
Quint from Jaws, like doll's eyes, you think that it's
(04:59):
not living until it bite in their roll over white.
I think that that's the best descriptor. So, yeah, I've
compared him now to reptile and to a great white chart. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
When Kayley Gonzava's mom and dad have been the most
vocal of all the parents, and now having seen them
and what we now are getting ready to talk about
some of the information that we have found out. I
(05:33):
never thought much of the picture of the selfie that
Cobert took lefter nine am the morning after this took place,
and it was Steve Gonzavez that said that was his marker.
You know that was his because he had gone back
over and we know that he did the murders between
(05:54):
four and four twenty in the morning. It had gotten
all the way back to his apartment, and then he
came back buy around nine o'clock and didn't see any cops,
didn't see anything going on out there, and so he
goes back and takes that selfie like a victory picture.
He'd gotten away with it. He thought he had gotten
away with it at that point, and I thought, I'm
(06:18):
thankful that we've had the chance. I'm thankful the families
did show up and speak at sentencing. The impact statement
was very impactful. I do think that if Kayleie Benzave's
older sister, Olivia, Yes, if she wants to run for office,
I volunteer to be here campaign manager. I believe, oh
(06:40):
my gosh, they actually her as much as anyone else.
But you know, so many times, Joe, when we are
going to speak, whether it's in front of a group
of business people or at church or a civic whatever
it is, we rehearse how we're going to do it,
and it never comes out that way. Sometimes when we
have an argument with a spouse or a boss, we'll
(07:03):
go through all the things we're going to say, and
we get it in our mind of what we're going
to say and how we want to say it. But
then usually it's with a boss, when we get in
front of them, none of it comes out that way
and they end up getting what they want anyway. In
this particular case, Olivia Gonzalvez kicked it through the upraids.
She says, you what most of us were feeling.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
And I have to tell you, I love the fact
that you mentioned interacting with other people, and you know,
like you have a planned like at the end of
maybe a commentary, that you're going to offer them something,
there's a question and answer period. She knew that that
was not going to happen. It's a different process what
(07:47):
she went through. And how many, how many times, Dave,
And I'm speaking to myself here too, because I know
that if you've ever been in an argument, and I
would bet dollars to donuts set our friends out there
have experienced the same thing. How many times over the
course of our lives have we wished that following maybe
(08:09):
an argument, a blow up, whatever it is, an hour later,
you think, God, I wish i'd said this. She lift
it all on the table. Oh yeah, I think that
there was within good taste. I think that now it
had just been her and him and I'm projecting here
in a room together, it would have been a bit
(08:31):
more salty, you know, with him strapped to a chair
somewhere in her talking to him. But in that and
it's a for those that have never been to court,
this is the other added bit to this that's so
fascinating to me. The first time, obviously I testified in court,
(08:52):
I'd never been to a foreign country. Never. I didn't
travel abroad until I was older. For if you want
to come close to that and go to court, if
you've never been to an alien landscape or foreign landscape,
go to court. The environment is different, the language is different,
(09:14):
the way you present yourself is different. It all seems odd.
That's the best way I can describe it. And I
don't know what her experience has been in the past
of walking into a court room. I have no idea
if this was her first time. Oh my lord, she
walked into this alien, odd world where there's a certain
(09:35):
level of decorum, where you have to obey the rules.
Everything that comes out of your mouth is you know,
has to be within certain parameters. And boy, she has
laid it all on the table. And it wasn't like
disorganized verbal vomit.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
It was ordered.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
It was sharply pinned. It was right to the point, Dave,
I'm the point.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
I've actually been to court where I had to speak.
The first time I realized I learned. I didn't know this.
I didn't know that that people who took an oath,
you know, to tell the truth lied in court. I
didn't know that until my first sign in court and
the police officer lied, and I said, that crushed me.
(10:25):
It changed everything about how I speak in public that one.
And I'm glad it happened when it did because I
learned a valuable lesson. I'm so proud of the way
she handled it, because it was better than I would
have done, and she said everything that most that a
lot of us were feeling. I felt like she was
speaking not just for her sister, but for everybody who
has Like you and I have talked about how close
(10:45):
we feel to this case because we have children in
that frame, you know, and you you're in that you're
on campus with these kids every day. They could have
been your students and as well as he could have
been your student.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. And I was having this
discussion the other day, and I have to say this
on a side before we go to other topics, but
did you know that's that that is actually an indwelling
fear that some of us in my field have. It's
(11:20):
one of those things that we don't talk about it
obviously in front of students. Here I am talking about
it in front of the entire world now, But it's
one of those things that if you're having a cup
of coffee with one of your colleagues and you're in
some kind of criminal justice program, forensics program, or even
if you're at the police academy. That topic has consistently
(11:43):
come up through my professional life, whether it was working
in the field and instructing people that were coming into
my field, or whether it was in an academic setting.
I wonder who's in the audience. I wonder who's in
the audience, who's out there that's there to glean information
and that they're going to take it away. The professors
(12:05):
at the Sails, there's no way they could have predicted,
no way, you know, you know, they for all of
their you know, eccentricities and everything else that comes along
with academia. They're in that particular field. They're not training
these malevolent and he is malevolent, Okay, I'll put it
(12:26):
to you that way. They're not training malevolent beings in
this context to go out and beat the system or
do whatever it is that they're doing. This is a
uh a, just this horrible entity that kind of entered
into their environment up there. And then when he left,
(12:49):
he left, and.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Hell followed after.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
David. I got to tell you, I'm glad that you
brought up Olivia. And the reason is it is not
just what she said she was being driven by. There
was a spark within her, and that spark I think
to a great degree that the families have always known
a bit more information than we've been privy to as well.
(13:26):
They should. They haven't known everything, Okay, understand that, but
let's face it, families went to funeral homes. Okay, let's
just put that out on the table now. Whether or
not they actually saw remains at funeral homes or if
it was something that was passed through the family. That
(13:48):
kind of thing gets into the circulatory system of a family,
you know, because I've been parts of cases where we
didn't tell the family everything, but then they go to
the funeral home and they are told by the mortuary
attendant and by the funeral directors. Funeral directors don't work
(14:08):
for the state or for any kind of agency. They
work for the family. And the family asked them a question,
they're going to say, well, yeah, this is the reality
of what you're dealing with here. They knew, and Dave,
I submit to you that it's because of that knowledge.
And obviously the most glaring thing is she's missing her sister,
She's absent and we'll never return. That's what that the
(14:32):
genesis of what you saw the other day with her
in her impact statement, that's what that was driven by Dave.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
And she did a great job. She she was articulate,
maintained herself, and I'm thankful that she had the time,
and I'm thankful that Judge let her speak. They have
a right to, you know. I want us to be
able to walk away from this and never talk about
(15:00):
the guy again. Not because well, you're about to hear friends,
even if you've heard it covered. I want to prepare you.
There were certain aspects of what I know now that
I didn't know when I was listening to Olivia Gonzavez
give her impact statement, Things that I found out later
(15:21):
that day, that night, in the next day about the
damage one person did to a community, a country, parents, grandparents,
in particular, the families of Madison Mogan, Kaylee Gonzavez, Xana Cronodle,
and Ethan Chapin. When he went into that house. We
(15:44):
now know that Brian Coberger entered the home through the
sliding glass door near the kitchen. He went straight up
the stairs. You alluded to this a minute ago. He
went straight up the stairs to the third floor. Now
the kitchen is on this second floor. Yep. He went
up the flight of stairs to the top floor, where
(16:05):
there is no exit except going up and down the
same flight of stairs. He knew where he was going
because there were people on the second floor, and if
he were to just go in there to riak havoc
on everybody, he would have started at the first available
door and gone from there. But Joe, he didn't do that.
He went up the stairs to Madison Mogan's room.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Yeah he did. And I think that you know, you
you would ask, you would ask a question at some
point in tom You know Maddie, Maddie was there obviously
and was still at school. Kayley had already moved out.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yes, yeah, she was starting her job and had a
new and that's why she was there. She came back
to show Maddie her new car.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
I think the most privative thing that you asked in
our conversation was did he know that she was there?
Did he expect to go up there and find one
and instead there were two? That's that's the question that
even even those detectives, and they gave these statements, even
(17:28):
those detectives could not firmly answer, you know, they couldn't
hold forth and say yeah, definitively that that this was
in fact the target. They kind of hedged their bets
and said that either it could have been either Maddie
or Kaylee, and that's I think that for a lot
(17:50):
of people out there that have been following this horrible
set of circumstances, all this all this quadruple homicide, that's
the big question. You know. They want to know why,
but they want to know who. I think who was it?
But you know, in our efforts, and I think that
you and I have done a pretty damn good job
(18:11):
here of honoring the victims. Because I'm going to tell you,
you and I are going to fight if we mentioned
if either one of us mentioned his name, because I'm
not saying it again.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
I know I accidentally did a minute ago, and I thought,
I can't believe I did that. Man.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Yeah, And I am just I'm so sick to my
back teeth of him. And I do want to talk
about them. And I can't sit here and espouse what
their lives were like, or their childhood was like, or
anything like that. I'm forensic scientists, and so I want
to talk about the havoc that was That was, you know,
(18:52):
the havoc that he left behind the evidence of it.
That's the interesting thing, isn't it. We And in crumsing
and people talk about evil all the time. They talk
about it in these kind of nebulous terms, right, I
(19:13):
would submit to you that people such as myself, other
people that work in my field, we actually see the
remnant of evil that grim harvest, if you will, those
things that are left behind, a lot of people think
they know evil until they walk into something like this,
and most people can't. I think that people that want
(19:36):
to beat their chest over how evil the world is
and how evil people are and evil this and evil,
that they don't really understand depth and breadth until they
walk into I guarantee you those police officers understand it,
and they will for the rest of their lives. And
this is going to be talked about. I mean there
will be these police officers will go to conferences, they
(19:57):
will talk about what it was like to work this
case and how all they worked this case. But for
the Tom Bean, let's let's kind of go go down
the road here, Dave, what what what say you about this?
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (20:11):
My biggest concern was not concerned. My biggest question was
again back to that targeted person, because, according to Prosecutor
Bill Thompson, they the prosecutors believed that it was either
Matti Mgan or Kalligan's office were the target. Now, Kaylee
was not there on campus anymore. She had already moved out,
cleared out her room. She was only there to visit
her lifelong body Matty Mogan, who was still in school,
(20:35):
and she was showing her car and they went out,
you know that, because Mattie was getting ready to go
home for Thanksgiving. If you remember, we had that break
coming up. This was before the Thanksgiving break. And anyway,
when Coberger comes up the stairs, we only know that
he went to the third floor first, and that Madison
(20:57):
Mogan was probably attacked based on To be honest with you,
we know more from Steve Gonzavas than we know from
a lot of the stuff that was filed by police.
He was able to put some things together about the attack,
the actual physical attack that took place. Now, being familiar
(21:21):
with college level college and college age people, we know
that Kaylee and Maddy had gone out that evening, got
home around two o'clock. You know, they stopped at the
food truck before then, and so by four o'clock in
the morning, they were pretty crashed out. You know, they
were crashing out best friends in the same bed because
again Maddy didn't live there. I mean, Kaylee had already
moved out, so they're both in Matty's bed. When Coberger
(21:45):
comes up the stairs. We know that Dylan Mortenson, Bethany Funk,
Dana Kernodle are awake. We know they're all awake because
we know Xana Cronodle had just gotten her foo ude
from Jack in the box delivered. Ethan was probably crashed out.
(22:05):
So Coberg, your cut b K, goes up the stairs.
He attacks Madison Mgen in her bed based on the
injuries that Madison Mgen has. Joe, tell me what took place?
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Well, first off, do you remember I opened the show
talking about the dimensions of the k bar. We have
to understand this is a combat knife and it's by
knife standards compared to modern knives. It's very heavy. So
if you have enough strength to wiel this thing, just
the transfer of energy from your arm to that knife,
(22:41):
or from your hand to that knife, it's going to
be devastating. And I can tell you this just based
upon what my experience with the k bar, because Kimmy
bought me one when all of this kicked off, she said,
you need this, you need it for you know, demonstrative purposes.
You know when you're on TV and all these things.
I'm thankful she did because it really gave me a
(23:02):
sense holding this thing and dave that blade right out
of the box. And still to this day I have
not I have not stoned displayed at all. It came
out of the box razor sharp, and I mean literally,
I remember taking this knife, and I'm not the most
(23:26):
hairsuit person on the planet, but I took it and
drugged the leading edge of the blade across where the
base of my hand attaches to my wrist, and it
shaved the hair right off of my wrist. And so
with that said, this thing was ready to go right
(23:49):
out of the box. When you look at what the
detectives are now telling us about about Maddie's wounds, they're very,
very distinctive. She's got defensive wounds on her forearms and hands.
(24:11):
And so the first indicator here, the first bit of
significant information I'd like to pass on to everybody, is
that when an individual is being attacked and they go
to what's referred to in NiFe or sword play to parry,
to parry an aggressor, which means to defend or to
(24:34):
to you know, try to block, She's got insults to
both her forearms and to her hands, which gives us
an idea that she was not asleep obviously, and it
wasn't just a matter of her grabbing the knife, Dave.
(24:54):
It was a matter of her actually taking almost making
a blocking maneuver where she's throwing her arm up like this,
and that's that's how you're getting this now. I don't
know if she was trying to strike at him in
raising her arm. You know, if you if you think
about like your hand, you're in a boxer's pose. I
(25:15):
want everybody to go into a boxer's pose, your fists
or clenched, and if you take your right hand, if
you're right handed or left handed, take your left hand,
and you do what boxers would call a right cross,
where you're going at this at the side of someone's
jaw and crossing in front of their face. That would
be like a perry to a knife move. So if
(25:36):
that knife is impacting on her arm, she's not asleep.
She doesn't she's not in a resting position where her
arms are at her side. I don't know how you
sleep day, but I'm a side sleeper. That's the way
I sleep. On my side I'm not going to have
immediate an immediate re I will have a reaction after
(25:59):
that pain center fire, but I'm going to come. I'm
going to suddenly animate at that point in time, and
I'm going to try to fend off the person that's
doing this great harm to me.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
And there is evidence that at least she tried to
fend her attacker off, but of course it was it
was for naught. Now, just so that we understand she
she would have had some level of an awareness that
(26:30):
this was happening to her. Now, let's just suppose that
Maddie was the first one attacked. That doesn't necessarily mean
that Kayley is going to wake up immediately, because I
don't you know, we've both had you know, young adult
teenagers in our in our houses. You can rattle them
(26:55):
and shake them all you want to, but just because
you do it first time doesn't mean they're going to
wake up. So, supposing that Maddie was the first that
was attacked, those paint centers are firing, and she's trying
to fend him off. She doesn't succeed at that at
that effort, because he was able to stab her. I
(27:16):
don't think these were in sized wounds because they're too deep.
What the police do relate is that she sustained lacerations
to her liver and to her and to her left lung.
Now understand me, because it sounds like I'm talking on
(27:39):
both sides of my mouth. Because we actually did a
special addition on body bags about sharp force injuries, and
I talked about the delineation between sharp force and blunt
force injuries. And we're going to get into some blunt
force stuff here in a moment. But understand that when
when a forensic with theologist actually begins to talk about
(28:02):
the liver in particular, there's a couple of odd terms
they'll use for for the liver particularly, they'll use the
term fracture and they'll use the term laceration even though
it is a stab wound. And that's why it sounds like,
you know, you're saying two things that can't don't seem
to marry up.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
We did this, you go, and we did the show
before about you know, the chart force trauma. I didn't know.
I mean, I thought laceration to me, that's a slice
wound that opens up the skin. And because that's just
what it sounds like.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Well, the last I know, but that comes from most
of the time, lacerations are associated with blunt force trauma,
like you get a lacerated liver also if you're in
a car accident. Okay, that's not what they're saying. They're
saying that she was stabbed and she stabbed into her liver,
and they're referring to this liver injury. Now we're not
(28:55):
talking about the exterior of her body. And if you'll
place your right hand at the base of the right
aspect of your rib cage, this is where that injury
to Mattie was. Your liver sits right underneath that last
rib on the right side. Okay, it's not beyond the
realm of possibility the liver would be injured when you've
(29:17):
got this kind of violent knife attack that's going on.
But for whatever reason they'd refer to this as a
laceration to her liver, he will have also whenever we
actually do get to see the actual autopsy report, if
that happens, that they'll talk about the track of the wound,
(29:40):
how deep it actually goes, what little landmarks within liver
it impacted. Liver is a very dangerous area to insult
and the reason is is that next to the brain,
I would say, it is probably the most vascular organ body.
(30:01):
So if liver gets damaged, you're going to bleed out,
and you'll bleed out abdominantly. But then there's something interesting
that happens they talk about, and I'm assuming that based
upon what we're hearing, that the liver and this injury
(30:22):
to the lung, and it's the left lung. So you've
gone from the right lower side of the body or
the right it would be the right upper quadrant of
the abdomen. Okay, it's where the liver is. Now you
move over to the left lung, which is on the
other side of the mid line, and up the left
(30:44):
lung has been penetrated with this weapon. It's passed through there.
So now you've got this horrible injury to the liver,
which depended pound upon how broad the opening is and
the abdomen she's bleeding out from. Okay, because blood is
(31:07):
still coursing through her body at this point in time,
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Go ahead, David, Now, how how quickly based on these
because we know she's got the injuries to her forearms
in her hands, so she's blocking how quickly would she
become incapacitated after getting stabbed in the liver and the lung,
would she fall out?
Speaker 1 (31:27):
It's not. And again this is an old saying. It's
not the one thing, it's it's the sum total of
the whole. And so once you've got this going on
with the liver, if her left lung is has been
injured as well, she begins to probably aspirate blood and
(31:50):
expirate blood. So this, uh, this happens commonly. She'll be
taken on blood into her airway and she's coughing and
hacking at this point in time, and it will be
very frothy blood that would be coming from her nose
and her mouth. But here's the thing. When you're at
(32:11):
the scene and there, if I remember correctly and correct
me if I'm wrong, I believe that that the uh,
their faces, both Mattie and Kayley are covered in blood.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
It's gonna be hard to like fully appreciate because with
with with Mattie, she's got a very nasty gash that
is also extending from her eye to her nose. So
(32:47):
you're gonna have blood that is profusely kind of running
down her face. At the same time, if anyone has
ever sustained a facial injury, like to your forehead or
your eyebrow. It's already dark in this room, Dave. You're
already disoriented. If you've had a few to drink at night,
you're already, you know, kind of out of whack. Anyway.
(33:11):
Now you're blinded, Okay, And I don't mean blinded like
you're you're you've been, uh, your eyes have been you know,
Uh lasparate himself. I'm just talking about you've got blood
that's flowing in and plus your h you're expirating blood
out of your nose, in your mouth. That's a tough
(33:32):
tough position to be in. And she's a little video
thing man. And to try to fend off uh this reptile,
this gigantic man reptile uh is is very very difficult.
It's her death would not have been if you're if
(33:54):
you're looking to me as a death investigator, UH, try
to assuage any kind of fears that you might have
had that her her her death was quick and painless.
I can't do that here. I can't and be truthful
(34:14):
with you. This is something that was that was painful.
It's something that she had an awareness of and of
course we know that that, contrary to earlier reports, that
her death was not in fact while she was asleep.
The other thing that they were able to to ascertain,
(34:39):
and it's probably a combination of all of the victims,
they knew that they were dealing with a single edged
weapon and that, as I stated earlier, Dave to sing
right of the box, they actually believe that this is
very sharp. Many times with sharp force injuries, you'll get
this kind of you'll get this kind kind of blunted
(35:02):
when it's pressed down on the skin. If a blade
is not real sharp, they'll be there'll be a tearing
that takes place with skin that you would not normally see,
particularly when you're talking about in sized wins, which are slices,
not stabs. They concluded that this was a very sharp instrument.
(35:23):
That means that the edges the edges when you look
at the edges themselves. And one of the things that's
kind of fascinating that people don't know that we do
in the morgue after we clean off an injury, like
we wash down the body. Okay, do you know that
we will actually take scotch tape and place it in
bridge across the knife injuries and pull it together like this,
(35:46):
it's not gaping the entire time. We'll actually take photographs
with tape off and with tape on, and it gives
you an idea. You can really see the definitive line.
Because when you're looking at it, I know you've heard
me say four use the term of the winking eye.
It just looks like this gaping thing. But when you
take tape and place it across it and pull those
(36:07):
edges or margins together, you can really appreciate it. I
would imagine they did something similar to that in the Morgue.
They were able to appreciate those little margins. That's one
of the reasons they were able to conclude that this
is a very sharp knife. Also, if this knife passed
through into her long Dave, here's something else that's taken place.
(36:30):
This blade is passing through bone. Understand that just you
have to understand that you cannot unless you hit it perfectly,
and the blade is turned so that it is in
the horizontal plane as opposed to the vertical plane, which
(36:51):
almost seems abnormal, it would have notched the bone. There's
a high probability of that. If not in Mattie's case,
certainly in maybe some of the other cases along the way,
they were also able to determine this very sharp knife.
They did conclude that this is not a serrated knife,
that this is a smooth edge as opposed to serrated
(37:12):
you think about steak knife, for instance. And I worked
a lot of those cases. The edges are not uh,
they've almost got a forensic pathologists use the term scalloped.
They have a scalloped appearance to them. You know, they're
kind of curved out in those areas. So I don't
think that that that's what they were dealing with. They
(37:35):
knew pretty quickly that this is a single edge blade
that was very sharp, and that it was that it
was certainly sufficient to the task, which of course, in
Mattie's case, led to a horrific, horrific end. Dave, you
(38:07):
have daughters. I have daughters. When they're little, I always
found we used to get kid. My youngest daughter, she
would come home from school and she'd say, I have
a new best friend. I was like, how can you
have a new best friend? What happened to the old
(38:29):
when others still my best friend? And I couldn't understand,
And my wife said, calm down, she's a girl.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
This is the way this operates.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
It's like, well a boy, if I have I had
a best friend when I was growing up. He was
like my best friend all the way through high school.
I mean, you know, I didn't have like multiple best friends.
Kaylee and Maddie were like best friends. I mean, it
wasn't like, well she's my best friend, she's my best friend.
It's like they're best friends. There's kind of a a
(39:00):
lot to kind of understand there, in a very tragic sense,
almost Shakespearean. I think.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
The Fly's family that they died together. Hayley's family talked
about Maddie as a sister.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
You know.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
That's what Olivia Gonzaba's talked about losing sisters. That they
were so tied together for so long that they were
members of each other's family. There was more than just
their you know, the friends. They were family. And that's
why the pain was so My heart hurts for the
(39:34):
family so much that I was thankful they got that.
I just say what they said. But when I was
reading over the police reports, Joe and I was trying
to map it out of my head. Clinically speaking, because
of having daughters in that age group where they My
house was the gathering house, and so both my daughters,
(39:57):
Hailey and Hannah both had their best buddies, always spending
it seemed, you know, and having knowing how girls are
and knowing how these two had been out that night,
and you can tell their closeness. I pictured them at
the food truck, just being pals, you know, and they
go in there and they're just being pals. And here
they are, and this horrific thing takes place. Maddie is incapacitated.
(40:21):
Kaylee is there, and you know, it was Steve Gonzabz.
It was Kaylee's father that I actually explained that his
daughter ended up trapped. And I couldn't quite grasp that
until I saw the reports because of where they were
in the bed Kaylee Gonzavez. As this attack began on Maddie.
(40:44):
Kaylee wakes up, but she is trapped between Mattie, who's
trying to fend off this attack, and the wall. Kaylee
is between Maddie and the wall on the bed. Imagine
what that was like. That's why I'm trying to get
an idea, Joe, of how how quickly would they become
incapacitated from the knife injuries, Maddie and then Kaylee. Because
(41:07):
there we're talking a very short window of time here.
We're not talking a long draw. We're not talking minutes.
We're talking minute sixty seconds. Is that enough for Maddie
for the attack to begin, her becoming incapacitated in the
attack on Kelley take place one minute forty five seconds.
What are we talking about here?
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Well, that's one of the questions people have thrown out
there many times. Is it possible? Is it possible for
this reptile to have entered this home and killed four
people in the short period of time? I believe it now, Yeah,
I do too, And I think, putting on my junior
(41:48):
psychology had here, I think that if you've got an
individual such as this that is in a heightened state
of arousal and you can't separate these two things, I
think are three things. Hatred, rage, and sexual fixation I
think existed and it's it's there's there's no force on
(42:13):
earth I think that can stop this, particularly in the
dead of night when you surprise somebody and this individual
has been fantasizing about this. That's that's the real deep
dive here. Isn't it. He's been fantasizing about this for
a protracted period of time, I think, and it's stewed.
It's stewed with anger and hatred, and and I think
(42:37):
it's it's something old timers just called bloodlust. I think
that's that's what's going on here. And if I could
go back for a second, there's one kind of little
interesting tidbit I think here from from what the detectives
have stated, is that they were found covered with a
(42:57):
blood soilk pink blanket. Now, you know, I'd like to
know more about the blanket. I'd like to know, you
know what, what the origin of that blanket is. I
want to know if somebody covered their bodies, or if
this reptile covered their bodies, and you know what, what
(43:19):
the purpose of that was, Because you know, I've seen
people like it seems one thing that most folks cannot
bear is to look at a dead body. You'd be surprised, Dave,
I think maybe you wouldn't. I don't know. I've made you,
I've made you jaded. I think there are a lot
of people that when we work cases and say they're outdoors,
(43:41):
people really take offense to see in an exposed body.
They can't stand it. They cast their eyes bepon it.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
They want us to.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Do something to cover the back of the body. Yeah,
and that's one of the that's what kind of prompted
the evolution of Well, there's two reasons, but that's what
kind of prompted the evolution of crime. See tents where
we could drop the sides. It almost looks like a
funeral tint, you know, the funeral tentts that you have
at gravesite. They look about those dimensions. And plus, we
(44:10):
don't want you see in what we're doing, you know,
inside of there, because it's none of you beeswax, because
we're collecting evidence within there. But also you get these
calls all the time, you know, why do you leave
their body out there so long? Well, we're working the case,
you know, right back at you. Why are you looking
if you find it that offensive? But that's not the
case within the house, you know, it's a protected environment.
(44:33):
So how did that blanket get onto the bodies? Whose
blanket was Well, we'd have to assume that it might
be Mattie's because she's still living there. But for all
I know, Katie might have brought a blanket with her,
my wife, my daughter. They both have favorite blankets that
no matter where we go, those blankets go with them everywhere.
(44:55):
I don't care. I'll I'll take an old burlap bag
and pull up on it. But you know, some people
take comfort in their particular blanket. But you know, that's
really kind of an interesting thing. And you had mentioned
how mister Gonzalveez God Blessing had mentioned that the k
was trapped, and just imagine being on this tiny surface
(45:18):
and you've got this animal that comes into the room,
and it's a grim reaper and he's wielding his sight
at this point in time, swinging it about in the
form of a knife. You hear a disturbance, maybe you
jolt awake, and the next thing you know, you feel
your pain center firing. You start to fight back. Your
(45:41):
best friend in the world is laying there. Maybe you
hear her expiating blood, struggling to breathe, gurgling, moaning, those
things that come along almost you know, I know you've
heard this term, but I'll throw it out there too,
And this is real. By the way, the death rattle,
there's a death rattle that comes on people in the throes.
(46:02):
You know you can tell that it's happening. I've had
countless people tell me about it over the years throughout
my career. And like I had said previously with Maddie,
this was not a quick death. She lingered for a bit.
I think this is not like, you know, someone has
(46:24):
been shot in the head and suddenly the lights, lights
are out, No one's at home. It's not like that.
This is not like that. But out of every victim
in this house, for whatever reason, which remains a mystery,
Kaylee's scene seems at least to have gotten the worst
(46:46):
of it. I've heard all manner things, some of it accurate,
some of it inaccurate about what these injuries were that
she had sustained. I'll go ahead and throw this number
(47:07):
at you, and this comes directly from the police. Twenty
stab wounds, Dave. When when an individual gets above like
ten or they hit ten a victim, that is it
really you know it? In my world, it makes us
really raise an eyebrow, okay, because we see when you
(47:34):
see this grotesque number and it's climbing. We're not talking ten,
We're not talking fifteen. We're talking at least twenty stab wounds.
You have to try to understand. You know, there needs
to be some explaining that goes on here, you know
what exactly why was so much anger and force directed
(47:58):
at this young woman. Because then after you get beyond
the twenty stab wines Dave, then the specter of disfigurement rises,
It kind of raises its ugly head along with it.
Everybody in my field, particularly if you've worked in major,
(48:21):
major areas, you work cases of disfigurement. It happens, and
it's generally either with a bludgeon like a blunt object,
or it's going to be with a knife. Most of
the time it's with sharp force. And when when you
think about disfigurement, it can come in any number of ways.
(48:41):
You can have people that have their faces slashed. You
can have elements of the face and the head cut
off that goes into disfigurement, and you can also have
blunt force trauma that comes along with that. And one
need not have have one need not have you know,
(49:06):
an iron pipe or a baseball bat to generate that.
You can actually generate, Dave, I don't know if you
know this. You can actually generate blunt force trauma with
a knife. If you're just imagine right now that you've
taken a roll of dimes or a roll of nickels,
and you've balled it up, You've rolled it up into
(49:27):
your fist. Well, suddenly your fist is twice as strong
as it normally would be, and it's carrying extra weight.
And if you're trying to get somebody to submit to
you and you're holding, say you're clutching a knife, it's
rolled up, you begin to pound on them with a
knife clenching. You're not using a blade here, understand, you're
(49:48):
using your fist. You're striking downward. And also, what can
cause a really nasty injury if I urge anybody that
hasn't seen and I think most people have that hasn't
seen an image of the cave look at it, because
it has got a guard, a handguard on this thing.
That could create some really odd injuries depended upon how
(50:15):
an individual is struck with it. And they're not going
to look like knife injuries. They're going to look like
something else. They're not going to have those really neat
edges to them like you see with the blade, the
cutting the business side of the blade. It's going to
have a more it's not a blunt object, but it
will have the margins will not if the handguard itself
(50:38):
breaks the skin, it's going to be a bit more
jagged in appearance. Here's another thing that people, I urge
you if you take a look at the Kbar knife
and look at it in its totality, particularly the handle.
The handle, I'm not really sure what the composite is.
(50:59):
I think in the past has been leather. That handle
is striped, and it's striped in the horizontal plane, so
you've got these ringlets that kind of run around it,
and they're furrowed. If the thing actually has furrows in
it so that you can grip it. The reason it's
made that way is like our fighting force, the Marine Corps.
(51:21):
Can you imagine being on some hell hole in the
South Pacific Island and you're fighting the Japanese. You're sweating,
right that handle that they that they introduced, and the
knife was introduced to the Marine Corps in nineteen forty two.
It prevents using from slipping in your hand, okay, if
(51:42):
you're wearing, if you're holding it with a bare hand,
and it's got a texture to it that almost feels
like a leather when you rub your hand, like unpolished leather. Almost.
It's not. It's like a rough swede kind of thing
that goes on there, but it's it actually has these
in the horizontal plane. It's got these ridges that are
cut into it. Now, I've heard that some of the
(52:06):
trauma that Kaylee had sustained had these kind of linear
marks to it, and I was and when I'm saying
this from the perspective of disfigurement, if she has sustained
blunt force trauma with this thing, I'm wondering if part
of the handle, perhaps just the force of it, you know,
(52:30):
kind of raining down on her, made contact and it
braided that area and it would leave behind that impression
that abraided impression, Dave.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
She had horizontal markings that they couldn't identify Iho State Police.
The detective actually talked about that there were injuries that
they could not identify or hadn't identified at the point
that we were reading the report. Doesn't mean they haven't
come up with an idea by now, but at the
(52:59):
point they wrote the report, they didn't know where they
came from. But I got to ask you a couple
of the questions, because all right, Kaylee has her fatal
injuries included left lung laceration, liver laceration, just like Maddie.
But then she also has two subdural bleeds and a
stab behind her clavicle which cut her subclavian vein and artery.
(53:24):
But there was the other idea of the asphyxial injuries,
and I put that together with Dylan Mortenson. Dylan Mortenson,
in her statement to police said she heard Kaylee scream
somebody's in the house. Now, we didn't hear that up
or at least I don't recall hearing that in any
(53:46):
of the reports we've done on this until I read
the report, and I actually went to the thirty second,
thirty third, and thirty fourth pages of the three hundred
and found Dylan Mortenson talking to two different police officers
and she mentioned that Kaylee she heard Kaylee, who she
thought was Kaylee, scream somebody's in the house. She said, scream,
(54:10):
somebody's in the house. And then she described hearing some
of the things. But now that I know that Dylan
Mortons didn't describe Kaylee screaming, now the gagging that we
had the injuries makes sense. They didn't make sense before
because Kaylee has injuries that are specific to her and
(54:32):
different from everyone else. But if she woke up and
she is screaming somebody's in the house, get help or whatever,
then yeah, her injuries are going to include gagging trying
to get her to shut up. I'm surprised he didn't
cut her throat, you know, but what damage he did?
Speaker 1 (54:47):
He got close, He got close, because you know you
were you alluded to these subclavian injuries.
Speaker 2 (54:55):
I don't know what is that? Why don't they write
out what these are for those of us who haven't
gone to medical to school.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
Well, so it's it's your clavical, it's your it's your
collar bone, you know which. Uh. I don't know about you.
I've broken my right one at some point in time,
painful injury. By the way. You've got you've got these
vessels that travel beneath the clavical hence sub claviing. Uh.
(55:24):
And you have veins and arteries, so you've got uh,
you've got a venus return, you have arterial delivery. And
both of these are very Uh. Either one of those
can portent a fatal event, So both of those could
be fatal. You know, I've been scratching my head over this,
(55:44):
this this idea that the police have put out, and
I know that this is coming from the forensic pathologist
uh that did the autopsies. Every one's bookan that there's
an element of asphyxia here. I am thinking at least
(56:05):
that the only way you can make this diagnosis is
by evidence of potential petiki perhaps, you know, you combine
that with the weight of the lungs, this sort of thing.
But she's undergoing this traumatic event, the horrific part in
(56:31):
all of it's horrific. But I think that one of
the real troubling things about this is that she is alive.
This was not again a sudden This is a torturous,
torturous death. There would have been an awareness again on
her part, as there was on Maddie's as well. Kayley's
(56:54):
may have lasted a bit longer and she did, you know,
fight back, you know, and you try to take some
kind of I don't know solace in that. I guess
I don't know that you can actually take solace in
something that horrific. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is
(57:15):
body backs
Host
Joseph Scott Morgan
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