August 8, 2023 • 19 mins
Remains are found in two locations along the New York Coast.
Legs are found in a plastic bag on Fire Island’s Blue Point Beach. A skull was found near the remains of Long Island Serial Killer victim Jane Doe No. 3, also known as “Peaches,” on a beach in Nassau County. We now know the body parts are from the same victim: Karen Vergata, 34, a mother of two.
It took nearly 30 years to identify the dismembered remains. The cause of death isn't known.
Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack look at the case of Fire Island Jane Doe.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. How many of us,
at some point in time have heard the term needle
in a haystack. Now, for those of you that have
never been around a haystack, it's quite dense. It's overwhelming
(00:34):
when you begin to look at it from the perspective
of trying to find something as tiny as a needle.
But let's take that idea and expand it out a
little bit. Let's think about an island, an island that
we've heard about all of our lives. It's one hundred
(00:57):
and eighteen miles long and at its greatest north south
width I guess we could say twenty three miles and
that comes up to just over seventeen hundred square miles.
That's a big number. That's a very big number. Oh oh,
(01:21):
I'm sorry, I forgot. We also have to add another island,
an island that in addition to the one I just
previously mentioned. This island is thirty two miles in length,
and they sit on the edge of one of the
(01:44):
largest bodies of water in the world, the Atlantic Ocean.
We're going to discuss today the identification all of these
years of Karen Forgatta. Otherwise known as Jane Doe Number seven.
(02:13):
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags. We've
talked a lot about everything that's happened with gilg Beach. Okay,
let's discuss Karen Forgatta.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Fire Island. Jane Doe was identified as thirty four year
old Karen Virgatta, who actually was last seen on Valentine's
Day in nineteen ninety six, her legs found April twentieth
of ninety six and her skull found in twenty ten,
(02:56):
fourteen years later. This story, Joe, I do not see
that we're at the ending. We're talking about people that
were murdered. We're talking about women that were murdered and
one man and trying to find the purp who did this,
and are we looking for more than one? I mean,
right now we've got one man and reality here three
(03:18):
women identified as his victims, and of course the possible fourth.
And now we have the identification of yet another possible victim,
Fire Island, Jane Doe.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
It's important I think that this is how it fits
from me at least, because it comes down from a
forensic standpoint to dismemberment, and my gosh, how many times
have we talked about dismemberment on body bags, But in
this case in particular, it's that the horrible nature of
(03:52):
Karen's case and also the idea that looking back through time.
This stepped off in nineteen ninety six, man I was
I was still you know, working in Atlanta as a
death investigator. A matter of fact, that's the year that
(04:13):
the Olympics rolled into town in Atlanta, nineteen ninety six,
that's when they actually found down in Fire Island. A
couple was walking along the shore and this is not
on the ocean side of the island, just so everyone
understands that it's on the bay side, so it's more
of a protected area. They were, you know, walking along,
(04:35):
can you imagine, and they see a partially open plastic bag,
and contained within that bag are a couple of legs,
a couple of human legs, and I can only imagine
their shock, you know, at that discovery. But you know,
part of what you do when you're trying to understand
(04:56):
the case is kind of the geography, the lay of
the land. That's that's why it's so important, you know,
because there's been a lot of mention. I mean, we're
not going to ignore the elephant in the room here.
All right, there's been a lot of mention about connectivity
between all of these cases relative to you know, the
so called Gilgo four now, and you have to you
(05:20):
have to, I think any right thinking person would have
to sit here and try it to see if there's
any kind of connectivity. But when you start to talk
about this thirty two thirty two mile long island, fire Island,
that it's not part of Long Island, it's not. It's
not like you need to hop in your car and
(05:41):
drive along the shore and there's some because where it's
going to take you over the fire, it's not the
way it works. You have to go up and inland
and back around and then back down. But here's here's
the thing, Dave, that back in nineteen ninety six, when
that couple was walked walking along you know, their pathway there,
(06:03):
and they look down and they see this partially open
bag and it's in water, it's in a water environment,
and there's what appears to be human legs sticking out.
That's connected in time. You have to go all the
way back. You have to go all the way back
to nineteen ninety six, and you wind up connecting a
(06:26):
skull that's found in twenty ten along Ocean Parkway, and
it's not too far away from Gilgo Beach a skull,
and these two things are connected.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
The area where her skull where Fire Island, Jane Doe's
legs were found and the skull found on Gilgo Beach.
Was it found in the same area as the gil
Go Beach four or was it found because I know it.
Gilg Beach four were four women who were actually found
or actually recovered in a very similar manner with the gunnysack,
(07:25):
and their bodies were similar so that they could be
tied together based on them. But the other bodies and
we're talking about six other people here, we're talking about
five let's see six other people. So we got four women,
a toddler and one man dressed as a woman, and
they were not in the same way treated as the
(07:49):
Gilgo four.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Correct, correct? Yeah, Yeah, you're absolutely right. And the skull
of Karen that was recovered was actually recovered not too
far away from those areas of deposition, but they're they are.
(08:11):
The skull itself was in kind of briars and brambles
at another location called Tobey Beach, which is kind of
adjacent to Gilgo Beach, it gets kind of complicated because
you've got.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Okay, this is where it comes into being four miles.
Tobe Beach is four miles from the site of the
Gilgo Beach four area.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah, yeah, you're right, and it is. It is some
distance in the sense of you and I were out walking,
you know, gee whiz, we've got to walk four miles.
But love, man, when you're talking about the depositing of
human remains, and specifically women that all seem to have
this kind of commonality, you begin to think, you know,
(08:51):
you're putting together in your mind, you know, what do
these things have in common. Well, we've got female remains,
we've got kind of a an area that would lend
itself to a protected area from view in order to
facilitate this, and then not just the go gofore, but
(09:14):
in another area, we've also got more dismembered remains that
had been found. And so you're looking at a pattern
that's kind of developing in and that's something that I'm
very interested in exploring in this case. And the biggest
(09:34):
thing for me, if we just look at Karen's case,
the biggest thing thing for me is this, why why
is it? Now? I got to ask this, why is
it that you would choose if you're the perpetrator to
bag up and it takes time after you have done
a dismemberment to bag up legs? Okay, drive all of
(09:57):
this distance to this location, assuming that the perpetrator in
Karen's case was not domiciled around Fire Island, driving all
the way out there, searching out a location that's not
on the beach but inland, okay, on the bayside, and
(10:17):
put it in that body of water, and then then
many many years later you find her skull, which is
essentially on another island away from that. And why is
there this delay? And why was the skull not found
(10:38):
in a protected state, and why is it found on
what you know? Seemingly I'm sure that it's gone through
the rising and falling of waters and all those sort
of things. But they're describing the area where her skull
was recovered as being found in briers and brambles. So
that tells me that it's it's a deposition of a
human skull and a completely different type of environment, certainly
(11:01):
topographically from where the legs are found.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Is it possible that the killer was in a boat
and threw the legs in the bag over the side
of the boat and they just washed up on the shore,
and that he's traveling down the coast with the head
and just decides I'm going a chunk this thing out.
You know, Is that possible that he's just tossing stuff
and arbitrarily landed an area where a serial killer had
(11:26):
also picked a place to bury bodies or to get
rid of bodies.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yeah, I'm sure it's possible, And it's also possible how likely, Yeah,
I was gonna say, And it's also possible at lightning
constriking people can win win the lottery.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
This is crazy, Joe. We've got legs on Fire Island
in ninety six and a skull found in and around
Gilgo Beach in twenty ten, when, by the way, there
is also an area where two other bodies were discovered
that have been dismembered. That's also generally speaking, in the
(12:00):
same area, you know, within a thirty or forty five
minute drive, and those parts of bodies also appearing in
the same general vicinity as long as Fireyron Jane Doe,
I mean, we've got we've got bodies that are dismembered.
We've got bodies that aren't dismembered. We've got a toddler
and a mother that we know are connected, and we've
(12:21):
got to do dressed like a woman. Are these the
victims of one serial killer Joe? Or is there some
kind of a club going on that is built on
terrorizing people or is.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
It one person? Or is it one person? Yea, yeah,
doing it all and has a taste for it and
is growing in their expertise. When you're talking about dismemberment
and you know these these cases of dismemberment, you have
to think back where they occurring. Is there any is
(12:56):
there any chronological tie backs to in the dismembered remains
are found as opposed to the intact remains are found.
And how long had those intact remains been found when
compared to those that have been dismembered. Do you have
an individual that is mixing things up, if you will,
as to their form and function. Maybe maybe they didn't
(13:18):
have enough time with the individuals that they wrapped, that
they wrapped up and deposited somewhere, as opposed to with
the dismembered remains, they had much more time in order
to facilitate this. And here's another kind of very ominous thing.
We've got a lot of shoreline here. We've got a
lot of this bay area and itself, and I beg
(13:40):
anybody that's not familiar with this area just to take
take a look the birds out view, you know, go
to one of the maps functions on your computer and
take a look at all the little inlets, these little
cozy coves that are through there. You have these little
islands of grass that occupy these spaces out there. You know,
access and oppertunity. You mentioned boat. Did this individual have
(14:04):
a boat that they were depositing these bodies in maybe
so okay, But if they have a boat, were they
trailering the boat or did they have a place where
they put in with their boat? Was there a common
boat ramp anywhere? And you know, you think about the
case up up in Fire Island with Karen was you know,
(14:30):
and yeah, it's in a watery environment. Did the individual
put in at a location up there and have her
body in the boat and decided to disperse the remains,
Because yeah, we've got a skull that's later found in
ten at Toby Island. And then we've got these legs
(14:51):
that were found back in ninety six, We're still missing arms,
We're still missing the torso where is it? Was it
scattered along the way? My thought relative to this, particularly
when it comes to dismemberment, the one forensic tie back
that we can look at all of these cases on,
(15:13):
and I mean all of them at is that. And
I've said this before, Are there any or is there
any evidence of tool marks, specific tool marks that are
used to dismember all of these individuals? What kind of
tool mark? If you're talking about somebody that's a hunter.
(15:33):
There are handheld bone saws that are out there. I
see them all the time where people can feel dressed
to deer with. Is that the type of saw that's
being used to take the body part? Is that a
power saw? Because if it's power saw, that changes your
dynamic Unless it's an electric saw. Well, I don't know
how popular electric saws were and how robust they were
(15:56):
back in nineteen ninety six. I know certainly they are now.
Is that something that would have been used because if
you use a power driven saw like with you know, electricity,
that's going to limit your ability to facilitate it as
opposed to something that's gas driven, like a chainsaw. Well,
if it's chainsaw, those marks in these bones are going
(16:18):
to be very, very distinctive. And I think finally kind
of as we you know, kind of shut this down
because there's going to be more to calm day. There
is the one thing I would have I would really
be curious about, particularly as it comes to skulls, because
in forensics and death investigation, skulls are significant in the
(16:41):
sense that when people attack individuals, the skull symbolizes something.
The head symbolizes something. First off, it is a point
of attack where if you're going to do great bodily
harm to someone, you would take a headshot, or you
would hit in the head with something. It's the center
(17:03):
of all that we do as humans, you know, because
our brain is contained in there. And to that point,
some people view the head as being a very powerful
element of the body. I think that somebody that's particularly
fixated on things like this might see the head as
something of a trophy, you know, just like we do
(17:24):
with deer. Here's the question, and given the amount of
time between when Karen's legs were found back in ninety
six and when her skull was discovered, had that skull
always been out there, or had it been something that
(17:46):
was retained for a number of years. And in forensics,
that's something that we can kind of figure out, because
a bone that's left to be out in the elements
begins to on the nature of the environment in which
it's found. However, if an individual has taken a skull
(18:07):
and they put value to that skull, for instance, maybe
maybe they strip it of all of its tissue, there
will be tool marks relative to that, little beings, little
cuts on the surface of the skull as tissue is
peeled away. And then did it sit in a box
(18:30):
somewhere on somebody's shelf where people would go back periodically
a person perhaps and hold it and fantasize it about it,
and then finally they got tired of it and they
went to a location and tossed it, maybe back in
twenty ten, and now it's just being discovered or has
that skull been sitting there since nineteen ninety six. I'm
(18:59):
Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybags
Body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. How many of us,
at some point in time have heard the term needle
in a haystack. Now, for those of you that have
never been around a haystack, it's quite dense. It's overwhelming
(00:34):
when you begin to look at it from the perspective
of trying to find something as tiny as a needle.
But let's take that idea and expand it out a
little bit. Let's think about an island, an island that
we've heard about all of our lives. It's one hundred
(00:57):
and eighteen miles long and at its greatest north south
width I guess we could say twenty three miles and
that comes up to just over seventeen hundred square miles.
That's a big number. That's a very big number. Oh oh,
(01:21):
I'm sorry, I forgot. We also have to add another island,
an island that in addition to the one I just
previously mentioned. This island is thirty two miles in length,
and they sit on the edge of one of the
(01:44):
largest bodies of water in the world, the Atlantic Ocean.
We're going to discuss today the identification all of these
years of Karen Forgatta. Otherwise known as Jane Doe Number seven.
(02:13):
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags. We've
talked a lot about everything that's happened with gilg Beach. Okay,
let's discuss Karen Forgatta.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Fire Island. Jane Doe was identified as thirty four year
old Karen Virgatta, who actually was last seen on Valentine's
Day in nineteen ninety six, her legs found April twentieth
of ninety six and her skull found in twenty ten,
(02:56):
fourteen years later. This story, Joe, I do not see
that we're at the ending. We're talking about people that
were murdered. We're talking about women that were murdered and
one man and trying to find the purp who did this,
and are we looking for more than one? I mean,
right now we've got one man and reality here three
(03:18):
women identified as his victims, and of course the possible fourth.
And now we have the identification of yet another possible victim,
Fire Island, Jane Doe.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
It's important I think that this is how it fits
from me at least, because it comes down from a
forensic standpoint to dismemberment, and my gosh, how many times
have we talked about dismemberment on body bags, But in
this case in particular, it's that the horrible nature of
(03:52):
Karen's case and also the idea that looking back through time.
This stepped off in nineteen ninety six, man I was
I was still you know, working in Atlanta as a
death investigator. A matter of fact, that's the year that
(04:13):
the Olympics rolled into town in Atlanta, nineteen ninety six,
that's when they actually found down in Fire Island. A
couple was walking along the shore and this is not
on the ocean side of the island, just so everyone
understands that it's on the bay side, so it's more
of a protected area. They were, you know, walking along,
(04:35):
can you imagine, and they see a partially open plastic bag,
and contained within that bag are a couple of legs,
a couple of human legs, and I can only imagine
their shock, you know, at that discovery. But you know,
part of what you do when you're trying to understand
(04:56):
the case is kind of the geography, the lay of
the land. That's that's why it's so important, you know,
because there's been a lot of mention. I mean, we're
not going to ignore the elephant in the room here.
All right, there's been a lot of mention about connectivity
between all of these cases relative to you know, the
so called Gilgo four now, and you have to you
(05:20):
have to, I think any right thinking person would have
to sit here and try it to see if there's
any kind of connectivity. But when you start to talk
about this thirty two thirty two mile long island, fire Island,
that it's not part of Long Island, it's not. It's
not like you need to hop in your car and
(05:41):
drive along the shore and there's some because where it's
going to take you over the fire, it's not the
way it works. You have to go up and inland
and back around and then back down. But here's here's
the thing, Dave, that back in nineteen ninety six, when
that couple was walked walking along you know, their pathway there,
(06:03):
and they look down and they see this partially open
bag and it's in water, it's in a water environment,
and there's what appears to be human legs sticking out.
That's connected in time. You have to go all the
way back. You have to go all the way back
to nineteen ninety six, and you wind up connecting a
(06:26):
skull that's found in twenty ten along Ocean Parkway, and
it's not too far away from Gilgo Beach a skull,
and these two things are connected.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
The area where her skull where Fire Island, Jane Doe's
legs were found and the skull found on Gilgo Beach.
Was it found in the same area as the gil
Go Beach four or was it found because I know it.
Gilg Beach four were four women who were actually found
or actually recovered in a very similar manner with the gunnysack,
(07:25):
and their bodies were similar so that they could be
tied together based on them. But the other bodies and
we're talking about six other people here, we're talking about
five let's see six other people. So we got four women,
a toddler and one man dressed as a woman, and
they were not in the same way treated as the
(07:49):
Gilgo four.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Correct, correct? Yeah, Yeah, you're absolutely right. And the skull
of Karen that was recovered was actually recovered not too
far away from those areas of deposition, but they're they are.
(08:11):
The skull itself was in kind of briars and brambles
at another location called Tobey Beach, which is kind of
adjacent to Gilgo Beach, it gets kind of complicated because
you've got.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Okay, this is where it comes into being four miles.
Tobe Beach is four miles from the site of the
Gilgo Beach four area.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah, yeah, you're right, and it is. It is some
distance in the sense of you and I were out walking,
you know, gee whiz, we've got to walk four miles.
But love, man, when you're talking about the depositing of
human remains, and specifically women that all seem to have
this kind of commonality, you begin to think, you know,
(08:51):
you're putting together in your mind, you know, what do
these things have in common. Well, we've got female remains,
we've got kind of a an area that would lend
itself to a protected area from view in order to
facilitate this, and then not just the go gofore, but
(09:14):
in another area, we've also got more dismembered remains that
had been found. And so you're looking at a pattern
that's kind of developing in and that's something that I'm
very interested in exploring in this case. And the biggest
(09:34):
thing for me, if we just look at Karen's case,
the biggest thing thing for me is this, why why
is it? Now? I got to ask this, why is
it that you would choose if you're the perpetrator to
bag up and it takes time after you have done
a dismemberment to bag up legs? Okay, drive all of
(09:57):
this distance to this location, assuming that the perpetrator in
Karen's case was not domiciled around Fire Island, driving all
the way out there, searching out a location that's not
on the beach but inland, okay, on the bayside, and
(10:17):
put it in that body of water, and then then
many many years later you find her skull, which is
essentially on another island away from that. And why is
there this delay? And why was the skull not found
(10:38):
in a protected state, and why is it found on
what you know? Seemingly I'm sure that it's gone through
the rising and falling of waters and all those sort
of things. But they're describing the area where her skull
was recovered as being found in briers and brambles. So
that tells me that it's it's a deposition of a
human skull and a completely different type of environment, certainly
(11:01):
topographically from where the legs are found.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Is it possible that the killer was in a boat
and threw the legs in the bag over the side
of the boat and they just washed up on the shore,
and that he's traveling down the coast with the head
and just decides I'm going a chunk this thing out.
You know, Is that possible that he's just tossing stuff
and arbitrarily landed an area where a serial killer had
(11:26):
also picked a place to bury bodies or to get
rid of bodies.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yeah, I'm sure it's possible, And it's also possible how likely, Yeah,
I was gonna say, And it's also possible at lightning
constriking people can win win the lottery.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
This is crazy, Joe. We've got legs on Fire Island
in ninety six and a skull found in and around
Gilgo Beach in twenty ten, when, by the way, there
is also an area where two other bodies were discovered
that have been dismembered. That's also generally speaking, in the
(12:00):
same area, you know, within a thirty or forty five
minute drive, and those parts of bodies also appearing in
the same general vicinity as long as Fireyron Jane Doe,
I mean, we've got we've got bodies that are dismembered.
We've got bodies that aren't dismembered. We've got a toddler
and a mother that we know are connected, and we've
(12:21):
got to do dressed like a woman. Are these the
victims of one serial killer Joe? Or is there some
kind of a club going on that is built on
terrorizing people or is.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
It one person? Or is it one person? Yea, yeah,
doing it all and has a taste for it and
is growing in their expertise. When you're talking about dismemberment
and you know these these cases of dismemberment, you have
to think back where they occurring. Is there any is
(12:56):
there any chronological tie backs to in the dismembered remains
are found as opposed to the intact remains are found.
And how long had those intact remains been found when
compared to those that have been dismembered. Do you have
an individual that is mixing things up, if you will,
as to their form and function. Maybe maybe they didn't
(13:18):
have enough time with the individuals that they wrapped, that
they wrapped up and deposited somewhere, as opposed to with
the dismembered remains, they had much more time in order
to facilitate this. And here's another kind of very ominous thing.
We've got a lot of shoreline here. We've got a
lot of this bay area and itself, and I beg
(13:40):
anybody that's not familiar with this area just to take
take a look the birds out view, you know, go
to one of the maps functions on your computer and
take a look at all the little inlets, these little
cozy coves that are through there. You have these little
islands of grass that occupy these spaces out there. You know,
access and oppertunity. You mentioned boat. Did this individual have
(14:04):
a boat that they were depositing these bodies in maybe
so okay, But if they have a boat, were they
trailering the boat or did they have a place where
they put in with their boat? Was there a common
boat ramp anywhere? And you know, you think about the
case up up in Fire Island with Karen was you know,
(14:30):
and yeah, it's in a watery environment. Did the individual
put in at a location up there and have her
body in the boat and decided to disperse the remains,
Because yeah, we've got a skull that's later found in
ten at Toby Island. And then we've got these legs
(14:51):
that were found back in ninety six, We're still missing arms,
We're still missing the torso where is it? Was it
scattered along the way? My thought relative to this, particularly
when it comes to dismemberment, the one forensic tie back
that we can look at all of these cases on,
(15:13):
and I mean all of them at is that. And
I've said this before, Are there any or is there
any evidence of tool marks, specific tool marks that are
used to dismember all of these individuals? What kind of
tool mark? If you're talking about somebody that's a hunter.
(15:33):
There are handheld bone saws that are out there. I
see them all the time where people can feel dressed
to deer with. Is that the type of saw that's
being used to take the body part? Is that a
power saw? Because if it's power saw, that changes your
dynamic Unless it's an electric saw. Well, I don't know
how popular electric saws were and how robust they were
(15:56):
back in nineteen ninety six. I know certainly they are now.
Is that something that would have been used because if
you use a power driven saw like with you know, electricity,
that's going to limit your ability to facilitate it as
opposed to something that's gas driven, like a chainsaw. Well,
if it's chainsaw, those marks in these bones are going
(16:18):
to be very, very distinctive. And I think finally kind
of as we you know, kind of shut this down
because there's going to be more to calm day. There
is the one thing I would have I would really
be curious about, particularly as it comes to skulls, because
in forensics and death investigation, skulls are significant in the
(16:41):
sense that when people attack individuals, the skull symbolizes something.
The head symbolizes something. First off, it is a point
of attack where if you're going to do great bodily
harm to someone, you would take a headshot, or you
would hit in the head with something. It's the center
(17:03):
of all that we do as humans, you know, because
our brain is contained in there. And to that point,
some people view the head as being a very powerful
element of the body. I think that somebody that's particularly
fixated on things like this might see the head as
something of a trophy, you know, just like we do
(17:24):
with deer. Here's the question, and given the amount of
time between when Karen's legs were found back in ninety
six and when her skull was discovered, had that skull
always been out there, or had it been something that
(17:46):
was retained for a number of years. And in forensics,
that's something that we can kind of figure out, because
a bone that's left to be out in the elements
begins to on the nature of the environment in which
it's found. However, if an individual has taken a skull
(18:07):
and they put value to that skull, for instance, maybe
maybe they strip it of all of its tissue, there
will be tool marks relative to that, little beings, little
cuts on the surface of the skull as tissue is
peeled away. And then did it sit in a box
(18:30):
somewhere on somebody's shelf where people would go back periodically
a person perhaps and hold it and fantasize it about it,
and then finally they got tired of it and they
went to a location and tossed it, maybe back in
twenty ten, and now it's just being discovered or has
that skull been sitting there since nineteen ninety six. I'm
(18:59):
Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybags
Host
Joseph Scott Morgan
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