April 23, 2025 • 41 mins
Marcia Norman is reported missing on April 4 after family and friends realize nobody has seen the 82-year-old since April 1. Investigators find her cars in the driveway, but it seems as though the grandmother was taken in the middle of washing the dishes. Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack discuss the case of Marcia Norman and the man accused of her kidnapping and murder, former pastor and convicted child molester, Jeff Zizz.
00:00.00 Introduction
03:33.98 Marcia Norman, 82, missing
08:33.43 Circumstantial evidence
13:09.70 Chemical Castration
19:26.89 Timeline of events
25:32.28 Who was watching Jeff Zizz
30:02.29 Condition of body in cement
35:07.07 Description of getting body out of ground
40:01.72 Conclusion
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Body diets, but Joseph's gotten more. One of the benchmarks
I guess along my journey as a death investigator has
been homicides involving the elderly. And here's why a homicide
(00:21):
victim that has reached maturity in their life, and I'm
talking about chronological maturity, it has got a different kind
of melancholy to it from me. And here's why. You've
(00:44):
lived a long life. You've been embraced by people throughout
your life that loved you and that you loved. You
reached that age. And I would assume that many people
like I do, say, you know, sweet lord, please just
(01:06):
let me pass peacefully in my sleep. But what makes
it so tragic is that you lead a full life
and then all of a sudden it comes to an
end at the hands of a guy who is not
(01:28):
only now accused of murder, but has previously been identified
as a pedophile with a violent past. Joining you from
the beautiful campus of Jacksonville State, Alabama, I'm Joseph Scott Morgan,
(01:51):
and this is body Backs Day. The case of Martian Norman,
eighty two years old by the boy crept across my newsfeed,
and again it's one of those moments in time where
almost like you're driving down the road and something catches
(02:15):
in the corner of your eye and it truly makes
you want to do you turn to go back and
see if what you saw was accurate. And the reason
it caught my eye was the fact that we not
only have an elderly lady out in Washington State that
(02:37):
has been murdered, but someone took the time to dispose
of her in such a disrespectful manner where she has
been essentially encased in concrete. And we've had other cases
like this where not like this, but we've had other
cases of encasement. Okay, but this thing kind of happened
(03:01):
really rapidly, and thankfully, I don't want to bury the lead,
but I'm going to anyway. Thankfully, the police have identified
somebody that they think is responsible for this, and this monster,
and I will call this person a monster is off
the streets for the time being.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
You're right for the time being, but I was concerned
as to how he ended up on the streets to
start with. Joe. But here's what we've got. We have
eighty two year old marsh And Norman, and she is missing.
Her family has not talked to her in a couple
of days. They're concerned. And as they were backtracking, when
(03:44):
was the last time you talked to her? When was
the last time you saw her? They came up with
a date of April first. It's now heading into April fourth.
And you know, at eighty two years old, when you're
in contact with family on a regular basis, at eighty two,
that's too long to not get you on the phone.
So they called for the old Let's do a welfare check.
How many of our stories start with that, a welfare check?
(04:06):
Here's this one. And when police go, they look inside
the house. Yeah, knock on the door and do all that.
But they realized that, well, her vehicles are in the driveway.
She has too, and they're both here. She is nowhere
to be found. And it looks like, based on the
(04:27):
way her home is, that she left in the middle
of washing dishes kind of thing. There are plates and
things that are in various stages of being cleaned. It's
like you had dinner and you started cleaning up, but
then you know, you got a phone call and took it,
you know, that kind of thing, and gone. That's how
(04:47):
fast this happened. In terms of the way police are
looking at it.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Now.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
When you've got dishes in the middle of being washed
and an eighty two year old woman who is missing,
you're going to backtrack to that date when was the
dinner that took place, because we know and that came
back to April first, and they identified her handyman, a
guy by the name of Jeff zizz z i zz Ziz.
(05:13):
He's a forty seven year old handyman and he is
the guy that was having dinner with her the night
of April first, when the dishes were partially cleaned, and
that's where this case begins in terms of searching for her.
They talk with Mistreszz a couple of times and they
(05:35):
already know him. He's in the system. He's in the
system though as a child molester. He has been convicted
or pled guilty rather to sexually abusing three children under
the age of fifteen. And that's why I said, I'm
concerned as to why he was out walking amongst the free.
Anybody that prays on children like that ought to not
(05:57):
be allowed out. But that's a different discussion for a
different day. I'm guessing at any rate, he's now the
hand no, no.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
No, no, no, no, no no. We're gonna have that
discussion right now. And here's why we're gonna have that discussion,
because I submit to you, brother Dave, that anyone you're
talking about the rubicon here. If you don't know the rubcon,
go back and read about Julius Caesar and he was
forbidden from crossing it. There. That's that's where we get
(06:25):
that saying you've crossed the rubicon. Now, let me submit
something to you. And again, okay, just just Joe Scott's
opinion here.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
I'm with you, boss.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
If you will rape, and we're gonna use word rape,
you've taught me that relative to children and adults. If
you're gonna rape three kids, I believe in my heart
of hearts, you're capable of anything, and I mean anything,
(06:55):
and none of it's good. Now, there will be people
out there, Oh no, he's he's got some you know,
he's got redeemable qualities. Okay, you're going to let him
keep your kids or be around your kids?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Is that?
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Is that what we're talking about here? Because I got
to tell you, anybody that would invest the time to
put themselves in a position so that they could rape
three kids, sexually molest them, take naughty pictures, do whatever
in the hell it is that that evil seed is
(07:34):
compelling him to do within his mind, look, killing grandmas,
It's not a far stretch as far as I'm concerned.
That's a good point. And when you mentioned that, you
know he was known to have been in her presence,
(07:54):
the evidence that I'm going to be looking for at
that scene, that would couple back and it should be
a very evidence rich environment. And just let me throw
out a few things to you. First off, the circumstantial
evidence if she was known to have prepared a meal.
And I find it interesting. You know you're talking about
washing dishes. You know, wee Kim and I wash all
(08:16):
of our dishes by hand. Now because even though we
have a dish washer, it's not really a dish washer.
It's a dish heater upper and wetter is essentially what
it does. It accomplishes nothing. So we wash all of
our dishes by hand. Well, what are you going to
be doing? Well, if you think she's a neat person, okay,
(08:36):
that every time she dirties up a dish, she washes it.
And so you'd have to go back up to the
family and say, you know what kind of person was she?
You know how she keep house and that sort of stuff. Well,
if you've got two place settings, okay, that's kind of confirmatory.
And how far how far had she gotten with a process? Well,
that brings us physical evidence, doesn't it. If you think
(08:58):
that you have like a dirty fork, dirty spoon, a knife,
a cup you know, only partially consumed coffee, maybe sitting
in the bottom, That's what I'm doing. I'm collecting those things.
I'm gonna check them for DNA. You don't think about it.
We always equate, you know, DNA evidence and those sorts
of things with sexual attacks. Okay, but you know there's
(09:24):
multiple different types of When you think about intimate contact
with items, Placing a cup to your lips, you know,
putting a fork in your mouth, you're bathing those utensils
in your saliva, which is a very good source, rich
(09:46):
source for DNA. So all of that would have to
be collected. What about the table, did they sit at
the table or did they eat at the breakfast bar?
You know what evidence might exist? There is there any
evidence of cleanup in the bathroom? You know, all of
these all of these things come into play. When you've
(10:08):
got this eighty two year old grandmother that has vanished
into the air because one of the things I'm going
to ask the family in regards to you know, did
she keep a neat house? I'm going to say, you know,
she's eighty two, what she suffering from any kind of
dementia related things? You know? Did she just wander off?
Was she predisposed to, you know, just walk out of
(10:29):
the house that sort of thing. You know, before you
would you would have to cross that barrier before you
ever went to mister Ziz and try to ascertain whether
or not he had had anything to do with that.
You just want to try to establish what her health
circumstances are. You should in any case, but particularly with
the elderly day. And that brings us to another part here.
(10:52):
She's eighty two. It's certainly not going to take too
much to overwhelm her, take her by surprise, perhaps rob
her of everything that she holds a deer and value.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Concluding her life.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
David, you know you had mentioned Zizz in this child
molestation thing that's going on with him. This is not
something that's in his distant past. We're talking, am I correct?
Are we talking about something that has actually occurred within
(11:47):
this decade right now.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Actually, Jeff Ziz previously pleaded guilty to molesting three children,
all under the age of fifteen, and this happened in
October over of twenty twenty one. He pleaded guilty to
two counts of second degree child molestation and communication with
a minor for immoral purposes and that was when all
(12:12):
this was file doc to August of twenty twenty two,
and he is prohibited under the terms of this agreement.
And this is why I'm thinking, Joe, how is it
possible the guy pleads guilty to molesting, sexually assaulting, damaging
children for the rest of their life, three of them.
How is this man still walking amongst the free.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
I don't know. And here's the thing, Dave, thank god
he can't. He's not eligible to own a firearm until
twenty thirty two. That's one of the stipulations in this agreement.
And look, look, you know I'm being flippant there, and
I mean no disrespect to the court, because there are
so many of us that see these horrible things that
(12:55):
happen in the news, and automatically we our default position
is put them under the jail throw with a key, Okay,
And yeah, I mean I think that many of us
would like to do that. I you know, I had
a discussion with a friend of mine not too long ago.
(13:15):
He had these same thoughts about people that are convicted
child molesters, and the topic of chemical castration came up.
Because you know, the old adage is is that you
know they're incurable, that you know that this is one
(13:36):
of those manifestations that occurs where they can't retreat from it.
They're still you know, compelled to participate in this behavior.
But you know, the court had no way of predicting behavior.
This isn't minority report. You can't look and see what
the future are. Now, there is some predictability, I think
(14:00):
if you go with this idea that they continue to molest.
But he took a different turn, didn't he, Dave. Because
if you're if you know, any of our colleagues over
in profiling, we're looking at this, I would think that
they would say, well, this is a bit of an outlier. Now,
they would look at this as objectively as they could.
(14:20):
They'd say, well, he's got a history of inappropriate behavior,
sexual contact, enticing, all those sorts of things. But now
what the police are saying is that he's, you know,
kind of bifurcated off of that, he's heading down a
road where he is alleged to have murdered an eighty
(14:45):
two year old woman, and that just those two things
don't seem to to equate. But yet again it goes
back to my underlying supposition that you know, I think
that once you're off into that world, you're numb to it,
and I think that anything's possible. You can still I
(15:05):
think that you're you know, all the barriers are down,
the walls are broken, there's nothing shackling you. The individual
could simply say to themselves, well, I've you know, they've
convicted me. Now all bets are off. It's a hopeless case.
I'm just going to run rough shot over anybody I
come in contact with. And you know, and what's the difference.
(15:27):
You know, when you've got children that are weak, children
that are certainly not sophisticated in the ways of the world,
and you've got someone that's elderly, who might have some infirmity,
might be weak, might be lonely, and they just want company,
you know. I mean, she's allegedly prepared a meal for
(15:52):
the guy that would end her life.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Dave.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I know, here's the thing, Joe is, when we talk
about jeff z is the handyman. I want to get
back to what he was actually sentenced. Okay, he was
sentenced in this when he pleads guilty to the sexual
molestation of three children. He of course you mentioned that
being prohibited from owning a firearm until twenty thirty two. Well,
(16:17):
he was actually sentenced to nine years in jail, but
was released after eleven months. Nine years in jail. Your sentenced,
but you get released after eleven months due to him
receiving credit for time served. He also is ordered to
serve six years of community custody or a supervised release
(16:38):
in rehab. But he sentenced to nine years. He doesn't
even spend one full year in custody. They cut him loose.
Now he's the handyman for eighty two year old Marsha Norman.
She cooks him dinner and then boom, she's missing. So
when police interview him a couple of different times, you
know they did start taking evidence. They are Yeah, I
guess that's the only way to put it. They were
(16:59):
taking evidence. Obviously is their person of interest. The guy
is out on you know, he should be in prison
right now, but he's not. He's the handyman for an
eighty two year old woman. So we're going to take
some clothes, some other items, and by the way, we're
going to take his car as well. And as they
are investigating, they've left him with no car. So what
(17:23):
does he do. He borrows a friend's car and beats feet,
he takes off Joe. When they come back to talk
to him again, he's gone. And that's where they have
already put together enough information to find out that he
has built a they called it a ram shackle cabin
(17:46):
or a shed rather, a ram shackle shed, not on
her property right there outside of Olympia, Washington. It's some
ways away from her home, the home of Marsha Norman,
and he has built this shed on this property. And
investigators decide to go look and lo and behold Joe.
(18:10):
They can tell there's been a lot of work going
on around this shed. I was reminded of the story
we did about the Kansas Mom's story that were buried,
and you talked about the impact of moving dirt and
what is left behind and how you know if you're
trained to look for such things. You can tell when
(18:31):
something's been dug up and buried. You can tell when
something is there that wasn't there previously and shouldn't be there.
And when police got to investigating this ramshackle shed, they
found the same thing something right here.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Yeah, you're and you know you've got you've got a
couple of things at work here when you begin to
think about what's in the surrounding area. One terrifying little
note here is the fact that if he if he
built this you know, quote unquote ramshackle shed. First off,
(19:06):
how do they track him there? How do they find
out that he has this SHD? That's a big piece
to this. Secondly, I can tell you well, okay, go ahead,
all right.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
You know, we got the story octogues that she went
and last time she was seen was April first. She's
reported missing April fourth. On April fourth, as they began investigating,
who's the first person they talked to Jeff Zizz, the handyman,
because hey, you're the last person to see her. You know,
he's admitted that last time anybody had contact with her
(19:39):
it was a six thirty on April first, And she's
been eating with a friend. Supposedly this handyman. Well, I'm
guessing I'm just spitballing here. Police, after their interview with him, decided, okay, guys,
let's keep an eye on him. Let's see what mister
Ziz does. Now he is a convicted child molester. Let's
(20:00):
see what he does. Well, they found out the day
after their investigation began, on April fifth, he threw together
the shed. So they obviously, no, no, obviously, I'm going.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
To guess, Joe, Okay, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
All right, I'm going to guess that police use their
brain and they were keeping an eyeball on him and
saw him go into this area that they've referred to
as unrelated property and found him building his makeshift shed,
and that led them to go to a Okay, let's
put together a search warrant here. We need to look
at what's in this shed. And then wait a minute,
(20:36):
let's get a search warrant for what's under let's move
the shed. And that's what they did. They actually they
got a warrant to move the shed and that had
just been built.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Yeah, and if you're going to go to this much
trouble building a shed, first off, when I hear this idea,
and these two things might seem unrelated, but I don't
think that they are relative to is past criminal behavior
recent past criminal behavior by the way, and the you know,
(21:07):
the disappearance of an eighty two year old grandmother. I'm
really thinking with shed, what was the purpose of creating it?
Was it the purpose of hiding something like a body?
Or was it purposed to hide activity? And you know,
(21:33):
that's a really chilling piece to this because if you've
got somebody that is involved in serialized crime and there
they have sadistic tendencies, Uh, most of that stuff that
they engage in cannot be done where you can be
(21:54):
seen to do it. So was this going to be
a multi purpose type of structure? Ramshackled as it might be?
How isolated was it? Is it going to have eyes
on it? Can you hear sounds emanating from it? How
much privacy does it provide? What's contained within the shed?
(22:16):
Hanging on the walls perhaps? Were there are things that
were there that would give you an idea that he
had other plans for things? And most importantly, how long
had this shed been planned for? You know, when you
(22:39):
begin to tear down the structure and remove it. How
well was it actually built? Anytime you hear that term ramshackled,
I think is an indication that this is kind of
a throw together. Either that or it was greatly aged.
And it seems like it didn't. You say that the
(23:00):
shed was thrown up pretty quickly, David.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yeah, I was actually thinking ramshackle is usually something to
describe something I built outside. Yeah. Yeah, they built that again,
another ramshackle shed. Yeah, this was actually something that they
started searching for her on April fourth, and on April
the fifth, the shed goes up in a day, and
(23:23):
it took him a couple of days to get the
search warrant, and it was April ninth when they actually
were able to get the search warrant. So it shows
you the amount of time shed gets built on the fifth, yeah,
and the night they're moving it.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
And she's last seen on April the first, correct. So
if he has an awareness of this location and she
is transported to that location and we know that this
is not property that's associated with her, he has knowledge
of this. I got to tell you, man, I'd be
(23:58):
very interested to see the rest of this property may hold,
as far as anything else that has been out there. Okay,
anything else that might be an indication of his activities
out there that pre date that April first time, because
you know, I think that his when was his release date?
(24:20):
Wasn't it like back in twenty twenty two October?
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, August of twenty twenty two. He was actually agreed
to the case. In October of twenty twenty one, he
played guilty and was sentenced to nine years in prison.
In August of twenty twenty two, he was cut loose.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Yeah. Well, you know, I can't imagine that monsters retreat
into their cave and just kind of sit back and
twiddle their thumbs. He's now been unleashed on the public
from that wherever it was he was being held at
that particular time in state custody. If he is itching
(25:01):
to do something else nefarious, how long did it take
to kind of flip that switch in him? Was it
something immediately as soon as he walked out the door
of whatever facility that they were watching over him at.
How soon had he relocated to this area. I'd like
to know what the people that are in charge of
(25:22):
watching him, what did they know as far as his activities?
You know, because you got a register, so you'd be
on the state registry. Did he have a parole officer
that was keeping tabs on him? What did they know?
What was he saying he was doing for a living.
Was it actually a handyman? Did he have paste ups?
(25:45):
How many clients did he have? Are there any other
clients missing? Do any of those clients have children? Have
any of those individuals filed any kind of report with
the police about contact he may have had with them?
So if he's working as a handyman and he's a
convicted child molester, most of the time, you can't be
(26:07):
near a school, you can't be near kids, So, you know,
it kind of limits your clientele, you know, because if
you've got a family that has a you know, a
nuclear family where you've got a mom and dad and
you've got a couple of kids in the house. I
don't think by law he could go there and you know,
(26:29):
fix a leaky faucet, because he's prohibited from doing that.
And I think that his activities perhaps would be really
easy to trace if in fact he was being watched.
(26:56):
I guess probably the first time I ever came in
contact with construction where it was required of me to
mix up concrete. I was. It was after my freshman
year in college and I'd gotten a job building fences
(27:19):
and it turned out that everybody else building fences with
that was on that crew. That were like nine of them.
We worked for a local hardware store that did this
on the side. I was the only one that didn't
have to feel any conviction. And boy, was that an
eventful summer for a young man. I got to tell you,
I learned a lot. They were good guys. I mean
(27:40):
they really were, and they were, you know, all about
keeping their noses clean. Most of them. It had been
a long time since any of them had been in
the joint. But it's just a different vibe that you get.
And they were hard working. I mean, you know, we'd
start working like six in the morning, and of course,
you know, I'm low man on totem pole and so
I've got to haul the bags of concrete and I'm
(28:03):
the one that's responsible for mixing it up and then
delivering it to them as we're setting the post. Okay, wow,
and this is not easy. It's not Yeah, it's not easy.
And I was, you know, and I was, you know,
young and had a strong back and you know making
I don't know whatever, it was three dollars and twenty
five cents an hour. Yeah, no kidding, yeah, not anymore so,
(28:26):
but yeah, And it's it's a uh to mix it up,
particularly in the sense that if you're going to en
case something, uh, this is not this is not like
you're going out and getting a sack a quick crete
and digging a hole and you know, after you set
your post in there, then pouring the quick crete around it,
(28:49):
patting it down, letting it season and do all those
sorts of things. This is something that.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Is far far more involved.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Than than you know, simply trying to you know, fill
a hole. This is you're talking about a large amount
of this mixture having to be utilized and in order
to facilitate the covering, our encasement of a body. And Dave,
they after they got that she had torn down, fill
us in on what they found at that moment in
(29:20):
Tom because I kind of buried the lead here again.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
They found miss eighty two year old Marcia Norman buried
under that shed and they said, partially encased in cement.
And Joe, I was looking through this because I was thinking,
was she cut up? And you know he put body
(29:46):
parts into cement, you know, but that's not what it says.
It says her body was encased in cement. We know
that she went was last see in April. First, we're
now talking, you know, several days have gone, and by
what are we talking about in terms of her body
(30:07):
and the smell, the decomposition, the condition of her body.
What what are we talking about in cement? Is it
going to freeze time or is it going.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
To Yeah, yeah, it's not going to freeze time. Just
always remember this with any burial, particularly an encasement, when
you don't freeze time. However, anything that is at you know, uh,
a trace evidence level that you bury with the body,
(30:47):
that bit of it is kind of frozen in time.
You're preserving. It's ultimate and preservation. Now concrete cement, Yeah,
if you you know, if you've got the body kind
of raw in there and you're pouring concrete around it,
it's not cocooned like in a bit of plastic or
(31:07):
a shower curtain or something like that, that concrete is
going to take things away when you chip it off.
That's what's kind of fascinating about this from an evidentiary standpoint,
because as that stuff is particulated, whether it be at
the scene. First off, you're talking about several hundred pounds
(31:31):
block of concrete. All right, just let that set in.
No point intended there, but let that set in in
your mind relative to just the movement of the remains. Now,
are you going to knock off those pieces at the
scene and do it in an uncontrolled environment? Because outdoors
in a wooded area is not controlled from an evidentiary standpoint. Okay,
(31:56):
you're really walking a fine line there because you don't
have the environment necessarily to facilitate collection of everything that
might come off and to be able to identify it appropriately.
Do you fork lift it out of there? Or put
a skid steer and lift it onto the back of
the truck, lash it down and take it back to
the mork. I've seen that done. And then you get
(32:19):
hammers and chisels and you be able to knock off everything.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Joe, I am so sorry, but all right, you're you're
talking about lifting a body in case in cement, Yes,
lifting it up all in one piece and loading it
onto the back of a truck. Yeah, covering over with
a tarp.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Yeah. And one and toting it, yeah and one, and
we do that with cars all the time. People don't
understand that. You'd be surprised what rides down the road
next to you is you're going down the highway. I've
had I remember, believe it or not. You remember you
Go cars, You goes?
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yeah, the death trap things.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Yeah. I had had five guys that died in a
you Go fire one time on in Atlanta. And matter
of fact, it was the hottest. The car caught fire
and it's the only time I was working that case.
And it was in the dead of summer. And you know, Dave,
I remember when I used to wear Magnum boots cop
(33:20):
boots because they would they'll take anything. They were still towed,
still healed, and I could go out and you know,
not have something pierce my foot or fall on it.
But anyway, I just had a memory about this. The
asphalt actually melted beneath my feet, and my feet were
held in place. On eighty five in Atlanta. I was
(33:43):
having to forcefully pull my feet out. And what we
decided was the tires had melted off of the scene
and these guys had been working at the airport. They
were from Honduras, and they were all living in the
same apartment. And what they would do at the airport,
which is on the south side of Atlanta, that would
clean planes. It's hard work. They were a cleaning crew
(34:04):
that would clean planes, and they would do it overnight
and then they would all go back to their apartment
which is kind of northeast of Atlanta, sleep all day,
get up, and go back down there and do it again. Well,
somebody rear ended them and a classic Yugo kind of thing,
and the gas tank is literally underneath the bench seat
in the back seat, and the whole thing just goes
up and flame. Well, we trucked that car, and this
(34:28):
is just one example that I have. We trucked that
one car with five bodies in it on a flatbed
to a garage where we could, you know, exricate the
bodies and work them and that sort of thing. It
would be the same principle here with miss Norman, because
if this is an encasement, and I find it very
(34:48):
interesting that they have stated this is a partial encasement,
which goes to probably hurried and not well prepared, you're
still going have to free her up from that. To
what degree did they go with the you know, uh
uh particulating the stuff, you know, at the scene. Did
(35:11):
they strap you know, dig underneath it, put straps, you know,
beneath it, and then lock it onto like a skit steer,
lift it up, put it on the back of a
flat bed, and then cover it with a tarp and
take it to a facility, either the crime lab, garage
or maybe even into the morgue. Uh if you've got,
(35:31):
if you've got the facility in order to handle this
and then chip away you know, this this substance that
she's been you know, encased in, you know. And I've
even had bodies that were discarded in garbage cans that
they brought the whole garbage can in with the body.
(35:51):
And that way you can really photographic photograph the the
not just the body, but the container and the context
of the body with and the container. So my thought
is they would want to get her body back to
a controlled area where and when you said and the
reason I mentioned about the partial the partial encasement is
(36:15):
that's kind of a descriptor Dave that you mentioned, because
how powerful would it be? And trust me, they've got
photos of this and they can be shown in court
maybe he didn't encase her whole body. Maybe her neck
and her head were still visible, but the rest of
(36:37):
her body is encased in. Maybe a single arm is
hanging out, maybe both of her feet are hanging out,
because I don't know if he ratioed this right relative
to how much concrete mix he would have. Did he
have access to water, did he have a mixer out there?
Because this is a labor intensive work. And then you
had mentioned the thought of what she dismembered before she
(37:01):
went in there. I don't know. It's a real head scratcher,
and it creates all kinds of problems for us in forensics.
There is a real upside in sense that what is
encased in there, or you know, if you want to
call it an entumbein I guess you could. But whatever
(37:21):
is encased in there, you haven't really frozen it in time,
but you've kind of held it. It's a placeholder for
you where you can collect evidence. But as you chip
the stuff away, there might be hairs that are caught
up in this. You know, this concrete that is drying
all the while, and then as you pull it away,
(37:42):
those hairs go with it. And how far are you
going to go with pulverizing, you know those big chunks
that you chip off the body to look for a
single hair that might be contained in there. So it's
kind of a nightmare scenario for you as an investigator.
Also any kind of injuries, which, by the way, my
(38:03):
understanding is they haven't released a specific cause of death
with miss Norman, is that correct.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Day They haven't, And that's what I have been watching
to see what we would get because this is an
ongoing case. It just happened in the last couple of weeks,
and information is not going to be forthcoming until they
actually because they've got him in custody. And actually, the
way police are going to go forward with this is
(38:32):
when Jeff Zizz left the state, he violated his parole
and now it can be sentenced. He can be put
back in prison for the full term. He's still had
eight years on that term. So they know where their
suspect is. They've got him contained, so they can take
their time on proceeding with this here on out, and
so they don't have to give out information to us
(38:54):
for anything. They don't have to rush anything now, No,
they don't. We haven't gotten anything.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
They don't By the way.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Jeff is is a former pastor.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Joe Lovely. Yeah, and you no comment. I just I see,
I see what has taken place with him. And it's
heartbreaking to think that, you know, her grandbabies, even if
(39:26):
they're grown adults, they're still her grandbabies, her kids, her
extended family, all of her friends that she's made. Remember
she's had eighty two years to acquire relationships, hasn't she.
And that's that's all gone. It's all gone. And the
terrifying thing about this, and I agree with the sheriff,
(39:51):
is that it was it was preventable. It was preventable.
I had the lawmakers not created these circumstances where he
could be out among those that are choosing to abide
by laws and are choosing to not go into this
(40:13):
really dark area in their life, and you know, just
trying to, I don't know, satiate those desires because I
know this, I know that you're never going to bring
bring back Ms. Norman and just like those kids that
(40:34):
he molested, you're never going to bring back their innocence
on any level. But the one thing that's waiting in
the wings are answers. Hopefully, and hopefully one more thing.
Hopefully this is going to be a wake up call
for the people in Washington State and particularly the legislators
(40:59):
out there, that sometimes, sometimes it's so much better for
individuals that are charged with heinous crimes to face the music.
(41:19):
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags.
Body diets, but Joseph's gotten more. One of the benchmarks
I guess along my journey as a death investigator has
been homicides involving the elderly. And here's why a homicide
(00:21):
victim that has reached maturity in their life, and I'm
talking about chronological maturity, it has got a different kind
of melancholy to it from me. And here's why. You've
(00:44):
lived a long life. You've been embraced by people throughout
your life that loved you and that you loved. You
reached that age. And I would assume that many people
like I do, say, you know, sweet lord, please just
(01:06):
let me pass peacefully in my sleep. But what makes
it so tragic is that you lead a full life
and then all of a sudden it comes to an
end at the hands of a guy who is not
(01:28):
only now accused of murder, but has previously been identified
as a pedophile with a violent past. Joining you from
the beautiful campus of Jacksonville State, Alabama, I'm Joseph Scott Morgan,
(01:51):
and this is body Backs Day. The case of Martian Norman,
eighty two years old by the boy crept across my newsfeed,
and again it's one of those moments in time where
almost like you're driving down the road and something catches
(02:15):
in the corner of your eye and it truly makes
you want to do you turn to go back and
see if what you saw was accurate. And the reason
it caught my eye was the fact that we not
only have an elderly lady out in Washington State that
(02:37):
has been murdered, but someone took the time to dispose
of her in such a disrespectful manner where she has
been essentially encased in concrete. And we've had other cases
like this where not like this, but we've had other
cases of encasement. Okay, but this thing kind of happened
(03:01):
really rapidly, and thankfully, I don't want to bury the lead,
but I'm going to anyway. Thankfully, the police have identified
somebody that they think is responsible for this, and this monster,
and I will call this person a monster is off
the streets for the time being.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
You're right for the time being, but I was concerned
as to how he ended up on the streets to
start with. Joe. But here's what we've got. We have
eighty two year old marsh And Norman, and she is missing.
Her family has not talked to her in a couple
of days. They're concerned. And as they were backtracking, when
(03:44):
was the last time you talked to her? When was
the last time you saw her? They came up with
a date of April first. It's now heading into April fourth.
And you know, at eighty two years old, when you're
in contact with family on a regular basis, at eighty two,
that's too long to not get you on the phone.
So they called for the old Let's do a welfare check.
How many of our stories start with that, a welfare check?
(04:06):
Here's this one. And when police go, they look inside
the house. Yeah, knock on the door and do all that.
But they realized that, well, her vehicles are in the driveway.
She has too, and they're both here. She is nowhere
to be found. And it looks like, based on the
(04:27):
way her home is, that she left in the middle
of washing dishes kind of thing. There are plates and
things that are in various stages of being cleaned. It's
like you had dinner and you started cleaning up, but
then you know, you got a phone call and took it,
you know, that kind of thing, and gone. That's how
(04:47):
fast this happened. In terms of the way police are
looking at it.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Now.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
When you've got dishes in the middle of being washed
and an eighty two year old woman who is missing,
you're going to backtrack to that date when was the
dinner that took place, because we know and that came
back to April first, and they identified her handyman, a
guy by the name of Jeff zizz z i zz Ziz.
(05:13):
He's a forty seven year old handyman and he is
the guy that was having dinner with her the night
of April first, when the dishes were partially cleaned, and
that's where this case begins in terms of searching for her.
They talk with Mistreszz a couple of times and they
(05:35):
already know him. He's in the system. He's in the
system though as a child molester. He has been convicted
or pled guilty rather to sexually abusing three children under
the age of fifteen. And that's why I said, I'm
concerned as to why he was out walking amongst the free.
Anybody that prays on children like that ought to not
(05:57):
be allowed out. But that's a different discussion for a
different day. I'm guessing at any rate, he's now the
hand no, no.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
No, no, no, no, no no. We're gonna have that
discussion right now. And here's why we're gonna have that discussion,
because I submit to you, brother Dave, that anyone you're
talking about the rubicon here. If you don't know the rubcon,
go back and read about Julius Caesar and he was
forbidden from crossing it. There. That's that's where we get
(06:25):
that saying you've crossed the rubicon. Now, let me submit
something to you. And again, okay, just just Joe Scott's
opinion here.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
I'm with you, boss.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
If you will rape, and we're gonna use word rape,
you've taught me that relative to children and adults. If
you're gonna rape three kids, I believe in my heart
of hearts, you're capable of anything, and I mean anything,
(06:55):
and none of it's good. Now, there will be people
out there, Oh no, he's he's got some you know,
he's got redeemable qualities. Okay, you're going to let him
keep your kids or be around your kids?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Is that?
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Is that what we're talking about here? Because I got
to tell you, anybody that would invest the time to
put themselves in a position so that they could rape
three kids, sexually molest them, take naughty pictures, do whatever
in the hell it is that that evil seed is
(07:34):
compelling him to do within his mind, look, killing grandmas,
It's not a far stretch as far as I'm concerned.
That's a good point. And when you mentioned that, you
know he was known to have been in her presence,
(07:54):
the evidence that I'm going to be looking for at
that scene, that would couple back and it should be
a very evidence rich environment. And just let me throw
out a few things to you. First off, the circumstantial
evidence if she was known to have prepared a meal.
And I find it interesting. You know you're talking about
washing dishes. You know, wee Kim and I wash all
(08:16):
of our dishes by hand. Now because even though we
have a dish washer, it's not really a dish washer.
It's a dish heater upper and wetter is essentially what
it does. It accomplishes nothing. So we wash all of
our dishes by hand. Well, what are you going to
be doing? Well, if you think she's a neat person, okay,
(08:36):
that every time she dirties up a dish, she washes it.
And so you'd have to go back up to the
family and say, you know what kind of person was she?
You know how she keep house and that sort of stuff. Well,
if you've got two place settings, okay, that's kind of confirmatory.
And how far how far had she gotten with a process? Well,
that brings us physical evidence, doesn't it. If you think
(08:58):
that you have like a dirty fork, dirty spoon, a knife,
a cup you know, only partially consumed coffee, maybe sitting
in the bottom, That's what I'm doing. I'm collecting those things.
I'm gonna check them for DNA. You don't think about it.
We always equate, you know, DNA evidence and those sorts
of things with sexual attacks. Okay, but you know there's
(09:24):
multiple different types of When you think about intimate contact
with items, Placing a cup to your lips, you know,
putting a fork in your mouth, you're bathing those utensils
in your saliva, which is a very good source, rich
(09:46):
source for DNA. So all of that would have to
be collected. What about the table, did they sit at
the table or did they eat at the breakfast bar?
You know what evidence might exist? There is there any
evidence of cleanup in the bathroom? You know, all of
these all of these things come into play. When you've
(10:08):
got this eighty two year old grandmother that has vanished
into the air because one of the things I'm going
to ask the family in regards to you know, did
she keep a neat house? I'm going to say, you know,
she's eighty two, what she suffering from any kind of
dementia related things? You know? Did she just wander off?
Was she predisposed to, you know, just walk out of
(10:29):
the house that sort of thing. You know, before you
would you would have to cross that barrier before you
ever went to mister Ziz and try to ascertain whether
or not he had had anything to do with that.
You just want to try to establish what her health
circumstances are. You should in any case, but particularly with
the elderly day. And that brings us to another part here.
(10:52):
She's eighty two. It's certainly not going to take too
much to overwhelm her, take her by surprise, perhaps rob
her of everything that she holds a deer and value.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Concluding her life.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
David, you know you had mentioned Zizz in this child
molestation thing that's going on with him. This is not
something that's in his distant past. We're talking, am I correct?
Are we talking about something that has actually occurred within
(11:47):
this decade right now.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Actually, Jeff Ziz previously pleaded guilty to molesting three children,
all under the age of fifteen, and this happened in
October over of twenty twenty one. He pleaded guilty to
two counts of second degree child molestation and communication with
a minor for immoral purposes and that was when all
(12:12):
this was file doc to August of twenty twenty two,
and he is prohibited under the terms of this agreement.
And this is why I'm thinking, Joe, how is it
possible the guy pleads guilty to molesting, sexually assaulting, damaging
children for the rest of their life, three of them.
How is this man still walking amongst the free.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
I don't know. And here's the thing, Dave, thank god
he can't. He's not eligible to own a firearm until
twenty thirty two. That's one of the stipulations in this agreement.
And look, look, you know I'm being flippant there, and
I mean no disrespect to the court, because there are
so many of us that see these horrible things that
(12:55):
happen in the news, and automatically we our default position
is put them under the jail throw with a key, Okay,
And yeah, I mean I think that many of us
would like to do that. I you know, I had
a discussion with a friend of mine not too long ago.
(13:15):
He had these same thoughts about people that are convicted
child molesters, and the topic of chemical castration came up.
Because you know, the old adage is is that you
know they're incurable, that you know that this is one
(13:36):
of those manifestations that occurs where they can't retreat from it.
They're still you know, compelled to participate in this behavior.
But you know, the court had no way of predicting behavior.
This isn't minority report. You can't look and see what
the future are. Now, there is some predictability, I think
(14:00):
if you go with this idea that they continue to molest.
But he took a different turn, didn't he, Dave. Because
if you're if you know, any of our colleagues over
in profiling, we're looking at this, I would think that
they would say, well, this is a bit of an outlier. Now,
they would look at this as objectively as they could.
(14:20):
They'd say, well, he's got a history of inappropriate behavior,
sexual contact, enticing, all those sorts of things. But now
what the police are saying is that he's, you know,
kind of bifurcated off of that, he's heading down a
road where he is alleged to have murdered an eighty
(14:45):
two year old woman, and that just those two things
don't seem to to equate. But yet again it goes
back to my underlying supposition that you know, I think
that once you're off into that world, you're numb to it,
and I think that anything's possible. You can still I
(15:05):
think that you're you know, all the barriers are down,
the walls are broken, there's nothing shackling you. The individual
could simply say to themselves, well, I've you know, they've
convicted me. Now all bets are off. It's a hopeless case.
I'm just going to run rough shot over anybody I
come in contact with. And you know, and what's the difference.
(15:27):
You know, when you've got children that are weak, children
that are certainly not sophisticated in the ways of the world,
and you've got someone that's elderly, who might have some infirmity,
might be weak, might be lonely, and they just want company,
you know. I mean, she's allegedly prepared a meal for
(15:52):
the guy that would end her life.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Dave.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I know, here's the thing, Joe is, when we talk
about jeff z is the handyman. I want to get
back to what he was actually sentenced. Okay, he was
sentenced in this when he pleads guilty to the sexual
molestation of three children. He of course you mentioned that
being prohibited from owning a firearm until twenty thirty two. Well,
(16:17):
he was actually sentenced to nine years in jail, but
was released after eleven months. Nine years in jail. Your sentenced,
but you get released after eleven months due to him
receiving credit for time served. He also is ordered to
serve six years of community custody or a supervised release
(16:38):
in rehab. But he sentenced to nine years. He doesn't
even spend one full year in custody. They cut him loose.
Now he's the handyman for eighty two year old Marsha Norman.
She cooks him dinner and then boom, she's missing. So
when police interview him a couple of different times, you
know they did start taking evidence. They are Yeah, I
guess that's the only way to put it. They were
(16:59):
taking evidence. Obviously is their person of interest. The guy
is out on you know, he should be in prison
right now, but he's not. He's the handyman for an
eighty two year old woman. So we're going to take
some clothes, some other items, and by the way, we're
going to take his car as well. And as they
are investigating, they've left him with no car. So what
(17:23):
does he do. He borrows a friend's car and beats feet,
he takes off Joe. When they come back to talk
to him again, he's gone. And that's where they have
already put together enough information to find out that he
has built a they called it a ram shackle cabin
(17:46):
or a shed rather, a ram shackle shed, not on
her property right there outside of Olympia, Washington. It's some
ways away from her home, the home of Marsha Norman,
and he has built this shed on this property. And
investigators decide to go look and lo and behold Joe.
(18:10):
They can tell there's been a lot of work going
on around this shed. I was reminded of the story
we did about the Kansas Mom's story that were buried,
and you talked about the impact of moving dirt and
what is left behind and how you know if you're
trained to look for such things. You can tell when
(18:31):
something's been dug up and buried. You can tell when
something is there that wasn't there previously and shouldn't be there.
And when police got to investigating this ramshackle shed, they
found the same thing something right here.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Yeah, you're and you know you've got you've got a
couple of things at work here when you begin to
think about what's in the surrounding area. One terrifying little
note here is the fact that if he if he
built this you know, quote unquote ramshackle shed. First off,
(19:06):
how do they track him there? How do they find
out that he has this SHD? That's a big piece
to this. Secondly, I can tell you well, okay, go ahead,
all right.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
You know, we got the story octogues that she went
and last time she was seen was April first. She's
reported missing April fourth. On April fourth, as they began investigating,
who's the first person they talked to Jeff Zizz, the handyman,
because hey, you're the last person to see her. You know,
he's admitted that last time anybody had contact with her
(19:39):
it was a six thirty on April first, And she's
been eating with a friend. Supposedly this handyman. Well, I'm
guessing I'm just spitballing here. Police, after their interview with him, decided, okay, guys,
let's keep an eye on him. Let's see what mister
Ziz does. Now he is a convicted child molester. Let's
(20:00):
see what he does. Well, they found out the day
after their investigation began, on April fifth, he threw together
the shed. So they obviously, no, no, obviously, I'm going.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
To guess, Joe, Okay, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
All right, I'm going to guess that police use their
brain and they were keeping an eyeball on him and
saw him go into this area that they've referred to
as unrelated property and found him building his makeshift shed,
and that led them to go to a Okay, let's
put together a search warrant here. We need to look
at what's in this shed. And then wait a minute,
(20:36):
let's get a search warrant for what's under let's move
the shed. And that's what they did. They actually they
got a warrant to move the shed and that had
just been built.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Yeah, and if you're going to go to this much
trouble building a shed, first off, when I hear this idea,
and these two things might seem unrelated, but I don't
think that they are relative to is past criminal behavior
recent past criminal behavior by the way, and the you know,
(21:07):
the disappearance of an eighty two year old grandmother. I'm
really thinking with shed, what was the purpose of creating it?
Was it the purpose of hiding something like a body?
Or was it purposed to hide activity? And you know,
(21:33):
that's a really chilling piece to this because if you've
got somebody that is involved in serialized crime and there
they have sadistic tendencies, Uh, most of that stuff that
they engage in cannot be done where you can be
(21:54):
seen to do it. So was this going to be
a multi purpose type of structure? Ramshackled as it might be?
How isolated was it? Is it going to have eyes
on it? Can you hear sounds emanating from it? How
much privacy does it provide? What's contained within the shed?
(22:16):
Hanging on the walls perhaps? Were there are things that
were there that would give you an idea that he
had other plans for things? And most importantly, how long
had this shed been planned for? You know, when you
(22:39):
begin to tear down the structure and remove it. How
well was it actually built? Anytime you hear that term ramshackled,
I think is an indication that this is kind of
a throw together. Either that or it was greatly aged.
And it seems like it didn't. You say that the
(23:00):
shed was thrown up pretty quickly, David.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yeah, I was actually thinking ramshackle is usually something to
describe something I built outside. Yeah. Yeah, they built that again,
another ramshackle shed. Yeah, this was actually something that they
started searching for her on April fourth, and on April
the fifth, the shed goes up in a day, and
(23:23):
it took him a couple of days to get the
search warrant, and it was April ninth when they actually
were able to get the search warrant. So it shows
you the amount of time shed gets built on the fifth, yeah,
and the night they're moving it.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
And she's last seen on April the first, correct. So
if he has an awareness of this location and she
is transported to that location and we know that this
is not property that's associated with her, he has knowledge
of this. I got to tell you, man, I'd be
(23:58):
very interested to see the rest of this property may hold,
as far as anything else that has been out there. Okay,
anything else that might be an indication of his activities
out there that pre date that April first time, because
you know, I think that his when was his release date?
(24:20):
Wasn't it like back in twenty twenty two October?
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, August of twenty twenty two. He was actually agreed
to the case. In October of twenty twenty one, he
played guilty and was sentenced to nine years in prison.
In August of twenty twenty two, he was cut loose.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Yeah. Well, you know, I can't imagine that monsters retreat
into their cave and just kind of sit back and
twiddle their thumbs. He's now been unleashed on the public
from that wherever it was he was being held at
that particular time in state custody. If he is itching
(25:01):
to do something else nefarious, how long did it take
to kind of flip that switch in him? Was it
something immediately as soon as he walked out the door
of whatever facility that they were watching over him at.
How soon had he relocated to this area. I'd like
to know what the people that are in charge of
(25:22):
watching him, what did they know as far as his activities?
You know, because you got a register, so you'd be
on the state registry. Did he have a parole officer
that was keeping tabs on him? What did they know?
What was he saying he was doing for a living.
Was it actually a handyman? Did he have paste ups?
(25:45):
How many clients did he have? Are there any other
clients missing? Do any of those clients have children? Have
any of those individuals filed any kind of report with
the police about contact he may have had with them?
So if he's working as a handyman and he's a
convicted child molester, most of the time, you can't be
(26:07):
near a school, you can't be near kids, So, you know,
it kind of limits your clientele, you know, because if
you've got a family that has a you know, a
nuclear family where you've got a mom and dad and
you've got a couple of kids in the house. I
don't think by law he could go there and you know,
(26:29):
fix a leaky faucet, because he's prohibited from doing that.
And I think that his activities perhaps would be really
easy to trace if in fact he was being watched.
(26:56):
I guess probably the first time I ever came in
contact with construction where it was required of me to
mix up concrete. I was. It was after my freshman
year in college and I'd gotten a job building fences
(27:19):
and it turned out that everybody else building fences with
that was on that crew. That were like nine of them.
We worked for a local hardware store that did this
on the side. I was the only one that didn't
have to feel any conviction. And boy, was that an
eventful summer for a young man. I got to tell you,
I learned a lot. They were good guys. I mean
(27:40):
they really were, and they were, you know, all about
keeping their noses clean. Most of them. It had been
a long time since any of them had been in
the joint. But it's just a different vibe that you get.
And they were hard working. I mean, you know, we'd
start working like six in the morning, and of course,
you know, I'm low man on totem pole and so
I've got to haul the bags of concrete and I'm
(28:03):
the one that's responsible for mixing it up and then
delivering it to them as we're setting the post. Okay, wow,
and this is not easy. It's not Yeah, it's not easy.
And I was, you know, and I was, you know,
young and had a strong back and you know making
I don't know whatever, it was three dollars and twenty
five cents an hour. Yeah, no kidding, yeah, not anymore so,
(28:26):
but yeah, And it's it's a uh to mix it up,
particularly in the sense that if you're going to en
case something, uh, this is not this is not like
you're going out and getting a sack a quick crete
and digging a hole and you know, after you set
your post in there, then pouring the quick crete around it,
(28:49):
patting it down, letting it season and do all those
sorts of things. This is something that.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Is far far more involved.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Than than you know, simply trying to you know, fill
a hole. This is you're talking about a large amount
of this mixture having to be utilized and in order
to facilitate the covering, our encasement of a body. And Dave,
they after they got that she had torn down, fill
us in on what they found at that moment in
(29:20):
Tom because I kind of buried the lead here again.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
They found miss eighty two year old Marcia Norman buried
under that shed and they said, partially encased in cement.
And Joe, I was looking through this because I was thinking,
was she cut up? And you know he put body
(29:46):
parts into cement, you know, but that's not what it says.
It says her body was encased in cement. We know
that she went was last see in April. First, we're
now talking, you know, several days have gone, and by
what are we talking about in terms of her body
(30:07):
and the smell, the decomposition, the condition of her body.
What what are we talking about in cement? Is it
going to freeze time or is it going.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
To Yeah, yeah, it's not going to freeze time. Just
always remember this with any burial, particularly an encasement, when
you don't freeze time. However, anything that is at you know, uh,
a trace evidence level that you bury with the body,
(30:47):
that bit of it is kind of frozen in time.
You're preserving. It's ultimate and preservation. Now concrete cement, Yeah,
if you you know, if you've got the body kind
of raw in there and you're pouring concrete around it,
it's not cocooned like in a bit of plastic or
(31:07):
a shower curtain or something like that, that concrete is
going to take things away when you chip it off.
That's what's kind of fascinating about this from an evidentiary standpoint,
because as that stuff is particulated, whether it be at
the scene. First off, you're talking about several hundred pounds
(31:31):
block of concrete. All right, just let that set in.
No point intended there, but let that set in in
your mind relative to just the movement of the remains. Now,
are you going to knock off those pieces at the
scene and do it in an uncontrolled environment? Because outdoors
in a wooded area is not controlled from an evidentiary standpoint. Okay,
(31:56):
you're really walking a fine line there because you don't
have the environment necessarily to facilitate collection of everything that
might come off and to be able to identify it appropriately.
Do you fork lift it out of there? Or put
a skid steer and lift it onto the back of
the truck, lash it down and take it back to
the mork. I've seen that done. And then you get
(32:19):
hammers and chisels and you be able to knock off everything.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Joe, I am so sorry, but all right, you're you're
talking about lifting a body in case in cement, Yes,
lifting it up all in one piece and loading it
onto the back of a truck. Yeah, covering over with
a tarp.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Yeah. And one and toting it, yeah and one, and
we do that with cars all the time. People don't
understand that. You'd be surprised what rides down the road
next to you is you're going down the highway. I've
had I remember, believe it or not. You remember you
Go cars, You goes?
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yeah, the death trap things.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Yeah. I had had five guys that died in a
you Go fire one time on in Atlanta. And matter
of fact, it was the hottest. The car caught fire
and it's the only time I was working that case.
And it was in the dead of summer. And you know, Dave,
I remember when I used to wear Magnum boots cop
(33:20):
boots because they would they'll take anything. They were still towed,
still healed, and I could go out and you know,
not have something pierce my foot or fall on it.
But anyway, I just had a memory about this. The
asphalt actually melted beneath my feet, and my feet were
held in place. On eighty five in Atlanta. I was
(33:43):
having to forcefully pull my feet out. And what we
decided was the tires had melted off of the scene
and these guys had been working at the airport. They
were from Honduras, and they were all living in the
same apartment. And what they would do at the airport,
which is on the south side of Atlanta, that would
clean planes. It's hard work. They were a cleaning crew
(34:04):
that would clean planes, and they would do it overnight
and then they would all go back to their apartment
which is kind of northeast of Atlanta, sleep all day,
get up, and go back down there and do it again. Well,
somebody rear ended them and a classic Yugo kind of thing,
and the gas tank is literally underneath the bench seat
in the back seat, and the whole thing just goes
up and flame. Well, we trucked that car, and this
(34:28):
is just one example that I have. We trucked that
one car with five bodies in it on a flatbed
to a garage where we could, you know, exricate the
bodies and work them and that sort of thing. It
would be the same principle here with miss Norman, because
if this is an encasement, and I find it very
(34:48):
interesting that they have stated this is a partial encasement,
which goes to probably hurried and not well prepared, you're
still going have to free her up from that. To
what degree did they go with the you know, uh
uh particulating the stuff, you know, at the scene. Did
(35:11):
they strap you know, dig underneath it, put straps, you know,
beneath it, and then lock it onto like a skit steer,
lift it up, put it on the back of a
flat bed, and then cover it with a tarp and
take it to a facility, either the crime lab, garage
or maybe even into the morgue. Uh if you've got,
(35:31):
if you've got the facility in order to handle this
and then chip away you know, this this substance that
she's been you know, encased in, you know. And I've
even had bodies that were discarded in garbage cans that
they brought the whole garbage can in with the body.
(35:51):
And that way you can really photographic photograph the the
not just the body, but the container and the context
of the body with and the container. So my thought
is they would want to get her body back to
a controlled area where and when you said and the
reason I mentioned about the partial the partial encasement is
(36:15):
that's kind of a descriptor Dave that you mentioned, because
how powerful would it be? And trust me, they've got
photos of this and they can be shown in court
maybe he didn't encase her whole body. Maybe her neck
and her head were still visible, but the rest of
(36:37):
her body is encased in. Maybe a single arm is
hanging out, maybe both of her feet are hanging out,
because I don't know if he ratioed this right relative
to how much concrete mix he would have. Did he
have access to water, did he have a mixer out there?
Because this is a labor intensive work. And then you
had mentioned the thought of what she dismembered before she
(37:01):
went in there. I don't know. It's a real head scratcher,
and it creates all kinds of problems for us in forensics.
There is a real upside in sense that what is
encased in there, or you know, if you want to
call it an entumbein I guess you could. But whatever
(37:21):
is encased in there, you haven't really frozen it in time,
but you've kind of held it. It's a placeholder for
you where you can collect evidence. But as you chip
the stuff away, there might be hairs that are caught
up in this. You know, this concrete that is drying
all the while, and then as you pull it away,
(37:42):
those hairs go with it. And how far are you
going to go with pulverizing, you know those big chunks
that you chip off the body to look for a
single hair that might be contained in there. So it's
kind of a nightmare scenario for you as an investigator.
Also any kind of injuries, which, by the way, my
(38:03):
understanding is they haven't released a specific cause of death
with miss Norman, is that correct.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Day They haven't, And that's what I have been watching
to see what we would get because this is an
ongoing case. It just happened in the last couple of weeks,
and information is not going to be forthcoming until they
actually because they've got him in custody. And actually, the
way police are going to go forward with this is
(38:32):
when Jeff Zizz left the state, he violated his parole
and now it can be sentenced. He can be put
back in prison for the full term. He's still had
eight years on that term. So they know where their
suspect is. They've got him contained, so they can take
their time on proceeding with this here on out, and
so they don't have to give out information to us
(38:54):
for anything. They don't have to rush anything now, No,
they don't. We haven't gotten anything.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
They don't By the way.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Jeff is is a former pastor.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Joe Lovely. Yeah, and you no comment. I just I see,
I see what has taken place with him. And it's
heartbreaking to think that, you know, her grandbabies, even if
(39:26):
they're grown adults, they're still her grandbabies, her kids, her
extended family, all of her friends that she's made. Remember
she's had eighty two years to acquire relationships, hasn't she.
And that's that's all gone. It's all gone. And the
terrifying thing about this, and I agree with the sheriff,
(39:51):
is that it was it was preventable. It was preventable.
I had the lawmakers not created these circumstances where he
could be out among those that are choosing to abide
by laws and are choosing to not go into this
(40:13):
really dark area in their life, and you know, just
trying to, I don't know, satiate those desires because I
know this, I know that you're never going to bring
bring back Ms. Norman and just like those kids that
(40:34):
he molested, you're never going to bring back their innocence
on any level. But the one thing that's waiting in
the wings are answers. Hopefully, and hopefully one more thing.
Hopefully this is going to be a wake up call
for the people in Washington State and particularly the legislators
(40:59):
out there, that sometimes, sometimes it's so much better for
individuals that are charged with heinous crimes to face the music.
(41:19):
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags.
Host
Joseph Scott Morgan
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