July 17, 2025 • 48 mins
The death of Jeffrey Epstein is back in the news and his brother, Mark Epstein, is on record saying he believes his brother was murdered.
The death of Jeffrey Epstein has been debated since the minute it was announced to the world. On this episode of Body Bags, Joseph Scott Morgan will share what it was like to be on the air with the news and notice "red flags" as certain parts of the death story didn't seem to be correct.
Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack will break down the death of Jeffrey Epstein. Did Jeffrey Epstein commit suicide, or was he murdered?
Transcript Highlights
00:01:17 Joe hears story about where the meanest men in America live
00:04:47 Joseph Scott Morgan talks about covering Epstein death
00:08:23 Discuss first attack/suicide attempt
00:11:45 Talk about unusual circumstances
00:14:37 Discuss conflicting statements about noose
000:17:15 Talk about Epstein allowed unmonitored phone call
00:18:23 Discuss no cellmate to attack or stop suicide
00:20:33 Talk about two nooses in the cell
00:22:42 Discussion of cell condition and contents
00:25:49 Talk about July 23rd event
00:29:25 Discuss observing body at time of death
00:32:25 Talk about putting hospital gown on Epstein
00:34:03 Mark Epstein told his brother may have been dead 2 hours or more
00:37:40 Talk about Epstein body wheeled into hospital
00:40:34 Discussion of hyoid bone
00:42:05 Discuss facts of the body at time of death
00:44:24 Discuss agreement overturned regarding suicide
00:45:14 Talk about autopsy, who was present
00:47:00 Discuss distribution of force
00:48:16 Mentions that noose wasn't collected for evidence.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. In nineteen seventy two,
when my father, who had just gotten out of the
Marine Corps, relocated our family to Georgia from Louisiana, I
(00:30):
was a kid. He took me for a drive in Atlanta, Georgia,
and you know how it is when you're little, The
world that you're surrounded by. At that age seems so big.
You can go to your grandparents' house, you can think
(00:51):
about it. Back then, things seem so much bigger than
they they actually were, particularly when you get to revisit
those locations as an adult. But you know, back then,
in nineteen seventy two, I was in the front seat
of his forward pickup truck and moved driving down the road.
(01:12):
He said, I'm going to take you somewhere and show
you where the meanest men in America live. Now, this
is in Atlanta, Georgia, And I had no idea. I
didn't even know anything about Atlanta. We just moved there.
So we're riding down the road and suddenly I looked
through the windshield. At his direction, he said, look straight ahead,
(01:35):
and all I could see was this big gray mass
of buildings surrounded by fencing, and as we grew closer
and closer, those buildings filled up the entire windshield. You
couldn't see anything but gray mass of gray stone. And
(02:00):
what I was looking at was actually the Federal penitentiary
that is located in Atlanta, Georgia, and it looked scary,
and as I came to find out later, some of
the most notorious criminals in America had been placed there
(02:21):
and had passed through there at some point time. I
was amazed at the names. And even as an adult
when I began to work in Atlanta as a representative
of the Medical Examiner's Office, every now and then i'd
have to drive by that prison, and even in a
passing glance, that child that I was back in seventy
(02:44):
two would re emerge, and I still viewed that place
as very, very scary. But there's another scary place that
is a federal facility, and it's located in Manhattan, and
we're going to talk today about one of the former
residents there. We're going to talk about the death of
(03:07):
Jeffrey Epstein. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body Bags, Dave.
I thought about you. You and I have these so
many commonalities growing up essentially roughly the same circa. I guess,
do you have those memories of places that were daunting
(03:28):
to you as a child and then maybe you revisit
them when you're older And it doesn't seem that way.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
When I was a kid growing up in southern California,
and as we would drive from where we lived in
Orange County to grand my grandpa and grandmother's house in
North Hollywood, we would drive by downtown Los Angeles. You
could see all the buildings, the important buildings, and I
was a little kid, okay, but I remember my mother
(03:54):
pointing to one of the buildings and saying, that is
where Sir Hans Sirhan is right now, and she would
give it. We had five kids in our failure, and
my mother would give the history of who he was
and other criminals that were localized. But that's the one
I remember the most was and she said, when you
get older, you need to look into that. And she
(04:15):
wasn't a conspiracy person, but she was very top of
topical current active, you know, in politics and things. And
I remember this building and it was it's a building
like if you watch dragonet or Adam twelve or any
of the you know shows from the late sixties and
early seventies Prime in LA they had the same building,
the municipal building, and yeah, I remember that, and I
remember I would always try to look at the top
of it to see if one if he's looking out
(04:36):
the window, you know that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
No, kidd, And you know what that building is so iconic.
I think it's actually on LAPD's badge.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Probably is.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
When you look at an LAPD badge, that building is
on there, and it's really cool. Those badges are something
to see. But yeah, yeah, there are those moments in
Tom that you know that you kind of drift back.
Stepping back just a second. I have to say that
the morning that he was discovered deceased, I had a
(05:12):
producer at then HLN that doesn't exist anymore, reach out
to me and say can you come to studio? We would,
and I'll never forget it. I was on air with
this one of my favorite reporters, a lady named Elizabeth Prant.
And the reason I really like her as her husband
(05:33):
was a picture for the Braves and she.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
I had asked her about her husband.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
But you know the I remember sitting there and having
heard everything about Epstein over the years leading up to
this moment in time where he was now confirmed to
be deceased. I was thinking, it was kind of a
surreal moment, you know, because they're flashing and when you're
(05:58):
in one of these studios, flashing up on the screen,
those big images, you know, and I could you try
not to look at the images because you're looking at
the person talking to you, right, I couldn't help it.
I kept cutting my eye over and I was thinking,
they've got me here talking about this on a Sunday morning.
I was amazed that I was having that conversation. And
(06:20):
I remember then thinking, you know, how in the world
could arguably, I guess, one of the most recognizable convicted
and also continued to be accused criminals in the world
be dead, be dead in a federal facility. That when
(06:43):
you think about it, you know, I think that our
mind often defaults to this idea that, Okay, it's a
federal it's a federal facility, it's a lockdown. It's probably
arguably maybe one of the most secure places in all
of Manhattan, Italy, not the Eastern Seaboard. I don't know,
(07:04):
but he nonetheless, he was dead.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
They kept all the biggest, hardest criminals up there. But
while they were in the process of heading to trial,
his roommate, you know, at the time his seally was
a cop who at a former cop who had killed
four people, you know, was a bodybuilder steroid. Between that
who and was a big crime guy there. I mean,
they had the biggest criminals in the right. There, here's
the key though. You mentioned the day he was found dead.
(07:27):
I remember before that, on July twenty third, when he
was attacked in his cell or committed tried to commit
suicide depending, all right, we covered that on Nancy Grace
got a phone call that hey, we got to get
on this story. And so before the death we were
going in death. We'd already done a number of stories
on Epstein and Gallainne Maxwell trying to figureut how to
(07:48):
spell her.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Name and pronounce it.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Oh yeah, that was butchered so many times until we
finally got to Gilaine. Anyway, we covered it. For those
of you listening to the programmed Body Bags, if you
don't know did Jeffrey Epstein story, we could start talking
about it now. I looked over the timeline and we
could do five shows on it, not get all the
information and still not make it to where we're starting today.
(08:11):
Right now, we're at the point where Jeffrey Epstein is
in jail. He has been arrested and charged with a
number of crimes, and they all involve sex with minors,
with underage young ladies, and the abuse is in rape,
and it's pretty extensive because of his friends. He had
friends that stretched all the way to the Royal Palace
in England, to the White House in Washington, DC and
(08:34):
many points in between. He's a multi millionaire. On July
twenty third, he was already in prison, he was already
at MCC and we got this story that he had
tried to commit suicide. We didn't know if he was dead,
We didn't know what was going on, but it turned
out that he had injuries. One seven in the morning,
July twenty third, corrections officers responded to his cell, where
(08:56):
they found him with an orange cloth around his neck.
His cell mate told officers that Epstein tried to hang himself.
Medical staff examined Epstein, observed friction marks and superficial reddening
around his neck and on his knee, and they placed
him on suicide watch. Border Prison's policy requires that inmates
identified as suicide rigs be placed on suicide watch until
(09:18):
they're no longer ineminent threat. I mean's watching them twenty
four to seven camera not you know, all the time,
and it gets less restrictive. But the reason this is
important is because of what happened here. At first, it
was his cell he's saying he tried to commit suicide.
But they looked at him like, well, the injuries don't
match a suicide, you know, it doesn't fit and the
(09:39):
like and by the way, why didn't you stop him?
Or why didn't you tell somebody you know? And then
it went well, I'm not sure, and Epstein said he
didn't know what happened. He didn't remember anything. At first,
he said his cell mate attacked him. That was the
other thing. He said, his cell mate attacked him and
tried to kill him. And then when they came back
and like, okay, some may said you tried to commit suicide,
you're saying it was the cell mate. And by then
(09:59):
Epstein changes it story. He says, I don't know what happened.
I can't remember anything, and I'm not talking anymore. And
that was it.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Yeah, that sounds obviously I don't know. My first reaction
to that, Dave, when you say it, is that this
sounds like somebody that's terrified. And let's let's look back
at this guy. We're talking about how much money he had,
just the home that he had in Manhattan, this brownstone
that he'd lived in. I guess you would call it
a brownstone. Some people refer to it as a mansion.
(10:27):
By New York standards, that structure alone is massive, and
I think by anybody's standards, this guy has money. Obviously,
they talk about Little Saint James the island, you know,
who owns an island, And then you think about this
huge ranch out in New Mexico that just goes on vast,
(10:52):
you know, and you hear all of these stories, and
one of the things that always troubled me, and I
don't know, maybe I'm just applying too much lodge without
enough data, but I begin to think about all of
these young women that had been brought into his sphere.
(11:12):
And many of these young women were from places like
Eastern Europe, and allegedly many of them were not just underage,
they were significantly underage. And I had thoughts about this, Dave.
You know, So after you're done with these young women?
(11:35):
Do you put them back on a flight and take
them to these nowhere places in eastern Europe where they're
recruited from? Where do you go? Do you just do
you take them into the US and just like you know,
a caged cage doves, you just kind of let them
go and fly where they want. Are they wandering around somewhere?
What happened to all of those women, those young girls.
(11:57):
That was always a head scratcher for me because the
story still has blanks that have yet to be filled in.
But I know this, I know that he's He's deceased,
obviously and under very suspicious circumstances. And for me, as
a death investigator, what I have heard and certainly now
(12:23):
based upon the photographs that have been released from autopsy,
have observed none of these injuries marry up with a
classic presentation for him. I've never told you this, Dave.
(12:56):
I hated working cases in jail for and I've had
to over the years. I've had to go for hangings,
natural desks, I've had to visit jil infirmaries for sabbings.
I hate it. I despise it. I think a lot
of it has to do with. You're treated like an
(13:18):
inmate when you show up, you know, because all of
us forends that guys have. You know, we have scene bags,
we have seen kits, and they have to go through
all of that stuff. Not that I'm bringing in anything
you know that I shouldn't have, but they're going to
check you out thoroughly if you're if you're carrying a weapon,
you have to surrender that. And then you know, you
(13:38):
walk in and you know that old adage about hearing
that door shut behind you. It's a real thing, man,
I mean, it really is. And and the odd thing
about being inside of a facility like this is that
any noise that is made in there because of the structure,
(14:00):
because of the stone walls or poured walls and all
of the metal framing, it amplifies in that environment. So
if somebody in a cell, you know, down the way, coughs,
you hear it, it sounds like they're right next to you.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
And so when you go to a jail to examine somebody,
do you actually get them? Do you actually go to
where it took place, like in the cell?
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Oh yeah, yeah, I've specifically done that. Not all people
are removed from cells and taken to an infirmary. And
you know, and that's one of the things that had
occurred allegedly with Epstein. His brother had talked about it extensively.
Where when Epstein was discovered, one of the jailers actually
(14:46):
either the jailer had conflicting statements. He said that he
tore and then he said he cut this noose away
from him that is tied off of the top bunk rail.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
And let's back up and get to that. Let's back
up for a minute, Joe, because in reality, when you
get there, I have a big question for you about
just because when I wanted to set it up properly
with July twenty third, twenty fourth, because that attack is
where why this shouldn't have happened. This the reason there
is such a focus on July eight. I'm in August eight,
(15:21):
ninth and tenth in Jeffrey Epstein's life and death is
because of July twenty third, twenty fourth. The man they called,
they think he's seriously injured. They go to his cell.
He says, my celly beat me up, tried to kill me.
The cell mate says he tried to commit suicide. And
then as you said, he's so scared. He says, I
want to keep this guy as my cell mate, and
I don't know what happened. I'm not talking anymore, so
(15:43):
you know, some threat. Something happened, and they analyzed him,
they worked with him, they put him on suicide watch.
They did all the things they needed to do. But
on July thirtieth, the Psychology Department sent an email to
seventy mcc New York and play He's explaining the need
for an appropriate cell mate for Jeffrey Epstein. They sent
(16:05):
that because the cellmate that was leaving was the former
New York cop who had killed four people, later convicted
and sentenced to prison. But they knew that he was
going to be transferred out of the cell on August eighth,
and there needed to be another replacement. He was not
to be left alone because of July twenty third, twenty fourth.
Jeffrey Epstein was not to be left alone. He was
(16:29):
also supposed to be on suicide watch because of July
twenty third, twenty fourth, but as it turned out, by
August eighth, US Marshall Service sent two emails notifying the
MCC staff that Epstein's cellmate was being transferred to another
facility on August ninth. No action was taken to make
sure Epstein had a suitable roommate a cell mate. Epstein
(16:52):
met with his attorneys on August the eighth at the prison,
not unusual for a criminal, but that particular meeting. On
August the eighth, Jeffrey Epstein signed a new last will
and testament. On August ninth, Epstein's cellmate was removed. This
is the lead up from July twenty third, twenty fourth.
There have been multiple emails passed, do not let this
(17:15):
man alone keep a roommate in there. His roommate leaves.
Jeffrey Epstein's left alone. August ninth, after a meeting at
the prison with his lawyers, the mcc New York staff
allowed Epstein to make a phone call in violation of
Board of Prison's policy. It was unrecorded, unmonitored. They don't
(17:35):
know who he talked to. They know what he claimed
to talk to, but they believe it was somebody else
that he had a relationship with. So he's on the
phone talking privately with somebody and that wasn't recorded or
report monitored or anything, so no telling what he said.
Epstein did say, he was calling his mother, but they
said it with someone else anyway. August ninth. August ninth,
(17:56):
inmates are locked in their cells at eight pm, Epstein
is in a c I'll buy himself for the first time.
When they next found him at six thirty the next morning,
they found him dead. Now before they cut the noos
off and everything else. Okay, tell me what was going
on in that room in Jeffrey Epstein's cell based on
(18:18):
the information we have now at six thirty in the morning,
when the guy comes in there to check in and
finds out he's dead, we'll deal with all the things
that went wrong to allow that to happen. But bottom line,
there was no cell mate as there was supposed to be,
and he's dead at six thirty in the morning.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
When when he's discovered, according to the reports, his buttocks
he's in a semi seated position. And yes, you can
hang yourself while slumped seated. I've had people on their
knees that have hung themselves. You do not have to
be fully suspended. He was seated, but his buttocks was
(18:58):
roughly an inch to an inch and a half off
of the floor. So when you have people that hang
themselves they have a tendency many times to kind of
slip into it and slide slowly down. There's a term
that's been floating around and it's actually referred to as
(19:19):
a soft hanging as opposed to say it just think
back to Western movies with the gallows, where which would
be a hard hanging where you have somebody that drops
the force that air body Jeffrey Epstein weighed approximately one
hundred and eighty pounds, and but you don't have this
(19:40):
dropping effect. You have somebody that is kind of slowly
seated going down. But since their body is not being
since his body is allegedly not being supported by the floor,
where does that leave the weight. Well, the weight is
totally being supported by this noose that has been formed
(20:02):
and that is around his neck. Here's the problem. When
they got to him, the guard, the corrections officer said
that he either at first he said he tore then
he said he cut the noose away. The noose was
(20:26):
not recovered and put into evidence. There was another noose
that had been tied previously in the cell that was
recovered and there's actually an image of it that you
can see. Anybody, I recommend strongly that you go and
take a look at it.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
There were two nooses, one that was around his neck
and one that was just in the room.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yeah, and there's ripped up that Look, there's ripped up orange.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Uh, so many sheets in there.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
That's my big question. And here's another point as well,
why is this damn place so disordered? Dave? It looks
like squalor that he's living in.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
And these areas, these cells are usually pretty AUSTEREI they
don't have a lot of stuff in them because they
don't want the inmates to be able to hide anything,
squirrelling anything away that they can then turn into a
means of negotiation. Oh listen, the extra blankets and things
can turn into money in jail.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Well do you remember the sixty minutes episode that came
out in the wake of his death, And sixty minutes
was the first CBS sixty minutes was the first people
to put up images. And I did a screen capture
on some of these things, and those images when you
see them. That top bunk that he was, he suspended
(21:36):
from the side of it. But the top bunk itself,
let us sink in, didn't have a mattress in it.
It was just a flat frame. There is a mattress
on the floor. There's a mattress on the lower bunk,
but where the mattress would have been on that top bunk, Dave,
there's prescription medications up there. You can see them lined up.
And you know, in my experience, one of the things
that happens in jails is that you are either if
(21:59):
you're having to take medication, you go to the infirmary
and they hand you the medication and they dole it
out in the little white cups, or a pharmacy cart
comes by with a coe along with it and they
will give you your meds through the door. This guy
had meds inside of his cell. How do you explain
(22:22):
that with this idea that he has suicidal ideation or
that he has he is attempted to Why are the
prescription meds in there now? He's also got a seapap machine,
which I think plays into this as well. The cord
is laying there adjacent to it on the floor, and
then there's all these ripped up bits of cloth, orange cloth,
(22:42):
and it looks like you know, for me, I always
imagine jail cells to almost have a military feel to it,
like you get punished if the place is not squared away.
You're not supposed to be laying on your bunk. You're
supposed to be you can sit on your bunk with
your feet on the floor. You can sit in a
chair that they might provide to you. You can sit
(23:03):
on the floor. You're not supposed to be late. It's
supposed to have almost this ordered not necessarily spartan, but
it's supposed to be squared away. This place was far
from it.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Well, you mentioned the seapat machine. His brother Mark has
really come out in the last several weeks and has
made a lot of comments. And Mark Epstein actually and
it was Mark Epstein who actually asked doctor Michael Bodden
to observe the autopsy, which I want to get into that,
but it was in one of the interviews Mark Epstein
did where he talked about the seapat machine and he said,
(23:36):
you know, there's all these strips of cloth and sheets
that are torn into making news. Wouldn't the electrical cave,
you know, plug on the seapat machine been so much
easier to use. It would have been less time, would
have been a lot tougher to it just would have
been a better thing to do than these the sheets.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Yeah, it's kind of indwelling rigidity, which selling rigidity. Yeah,
you know you've got the wires. They are encased inside
of a rubber sheath, so it's it's literally reinforced. I've
had people I actually had I know of a lady
that was on a psych unit and I had to
go to the psych unit and work her her death
(24:13):
because she was in the acute ward and the nurses
had let her keep her hair dryer and she hung
herself with her hair dryer. I've seen this done before.
It is very much. And again she was seated, she
was seated on the floor and kind of and she
was on the other side of a hospital bed, tied
off on the rail, slid down onto the floor, and
she died. So don't try to tell me that it's
(24:34):
not possible for this to have occurred. And when you
can facilitate it, and you have this rigid, semi rigid
cord that would certainly support the one hundred and eighty
pound man, but you're you're going to defer to a
piece of cloth to utilize it. And let's face it,
(24:54):
this is not like high end you know, material. It
would be easy to tear perhaps, and it's hard to
fashion something out of it that that would that would
work effectively. I'm not saying it couldn't work. I'm just
saying that it's it wouldn't be your first choice in
a circumstance like this. And again with all of those medications. Certainly,
(25:16):
if you were that desperate to take your own life
and you had access to these, why wouldn't you do it?
Why wouldn't you take the backing off of the off
of the seapap machine, plug the thing, the cord, the
bare cord into the wall, and hold on to the
ends of it and an electrocute yourself. I don't know,
there's any number of ways you could do it. But
yet he chose, according to them, to rip up sheets,
(25:39):
sheets or clothing and utilize this as some kind of
homemade ligature it And it just doesn't marry up in
my mind.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
It also seems like if you were going to if
you were going to take your own life in a
jail cell, you would be mindful of guards walking by
watching video, and you would you would be on the
alert for somebody to catch you. And I would think,
considering what happened July twenty third, twenty fourth with whatever
happened there, whether he was attacked by his cell mat
(26:09):
or tried to commit suicide. They he knew that at
one pint thirty in the morning, they would get found
out fairly quickly. He wouldn't have a bunch of extra
scraps of cloth ripped. He would just get whatever he
needed and start and do it. Just get it over with. Yeah,
and you've got this other cord that would work better.
So why is there why are there so many strips
(26:30):
of unused cloth, like he's doing a project for school
instead of just getting whatever I have to do to
kill myself before the guards come back.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Yeah. And you know, in my in my history of
working suicides, people think that it's kind of this long
drawn out process where people sit down and write this
longe notes or the exception, and most of the time,
and the reason I'm saying this is that many times,
once people have decided to do this, they do it.
(27:00):
It's kind of like standing on a cliff and you're
going to jump into a body of water. Everybody's you know,
standing there waiting for you to do it, and finally
you get up the gumption to do it, and you
do it. Why wouldn't he just move forward with that
action and take that action. At that moment, Tom he
sits there and kind of ruminates over this. I don't know.
I guess he did. But you know, the one thing
(27:21):
that we don't know is we don't really know what
his activities were now, do we, because cameras weren't working.
The documentation is shoddy at best, particularly as it applies
to an inmate that you are actually saying has suicidal ideation.
You know, you need to be on this guy twenty
(27:42):
four to seven and listen. You cannot lack this. You
cannot have this lack of self awareness in the world.
You know who he is. I'm not saying he should
be treated better than anybody else, but certainly you do
grasp the concept that disguise in the national news that
(28:04):
if he is an accused pedophile, that there might be
people within this environment that don't particularly care for pedophiles.
We know what happens in incarcerated situations with people that
do harm to children, and Lord knows he at that time,
he's probably the most famous in the world at this
(28:24):
level that has been accused of this thing and having
done this over and over and over again. It would
seem that it would compel the staff to be even
more vigilant, if you will. But of course, in the
case of Jeffrey Epstein, that didn't happen. As a medical
(28:57):
legal death investigator, I have visited every emergency room within
all of the jurisdictions I have worked in. You spend
a lot of time in emergency rooms, believe it or not.
You show up if you're working for the corner of
the medical examiner, because that's where the remains are, and
you're notified. You're the first person notified when somebody dies.
(29:18):
Many times I'd go to the emergency room just so
I could take a look, maybe do my own examination,
take photos, and then I would determine that moment time
if we need to bring the body in for an
autopsy or just release the body. But you know, Dave,
the best way to observe any dead body is in
its pristine state in the cells. In this case, in
(29:43):
the cell. And but you know that didn't happen. And
even though Jeffrey Epstein was taken down and then removed
to the infirmary, they didn't stop there. They went on
to a hospital.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
At that point in time, to get there to be
caught up to where we are with the body, because
we've got to get into the autopsy. But Epstein wasn't
supposed to be alone.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
He was.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
The guards were supposed to be watching. They were supposed
to be going by every thirty minutes at least, and
they were supposed to be watching on video. We now
know the video cameras were not working. We know that
the guards did not check the cell, not just every
thirty minutes, not just every hour. They probably were asleep
and or on the internet googling things face but whatever.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
You mean the guards that were convicted.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Yes, the guards that were convicted for not doing their
job and then lying about it. Yeah, Yes, those are
the guards I'm talking about.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I just wanted to make sure.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Yeah, mag I'm glad you got that in because that
it's an important part of the story that went into this,
because it suicide or murder. Well, that's what we've got
to know. And right now, Joe, I have a lot
of suspicion about how many times they were warned, don't
leave him alone, how many times they were warning to
watch him, like who took him off suicide watch when
they knew that this guy was a potential threat for suicide, right,
(31:00):
But when they took his body out of the cell,
he could have been dead for up to six hours
at that time, Joe, And yet they still went through
he was dead. They still went through all the motions
of putting a gown on him at the hospital like
he was a live guy there and took him into
the hospital. I'm bringing that up because is that a
(31:23):
common occurrence to take a dead body and obviously dead
body and put a hospital gown on them at the hospital.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
It seems like you're going to great and most of
the time. Okay, let me explain it to you this way.
His clothing was cut away from his body, which is
standard that does happen because you well, so well, the
EMTs had cut it away apparently, which is even kind
of more interesting because he went to the infirmary so
after the EMTs nine when one call was placed, So
(31:53):
after they made it through all the levels of security
with everything they have to make it through therewith with
all of the kits and all that stuff, they finally
show up in the infirmary where heroic measures being taken,
where they still ongoing at that moment time because we
do know that one of the guards started CPR on
it and started doing chess compressions. Did that continue on
(32:15):
into the infirmary and then and then the EMTs took
over at that point in time as they are transporting
him to the hospital to the emergency room. But back
to your question about it, is it common for them
to put a hospital gown some people. I've heard some
people call him a Johnny Coke, which is kind of interesting,
(32:37):
you know, ties in the back. We've all been subjected
to this humiliation in our lives. Probably the times I've
seen that happen are generally times where you're gonna have
family come by and see a body, because other than that,
what's what's the point? Because they can be covered with
(33:00):
the sheet and in hospitals they use what's referred to
as a morg pack, which is a plastic It's different
than a body bag, but it is a plastic sheet
that bodies are almost rolled up in and then it's
got strings that you tied off on the midsection, you
tied off on the ends. It comes with a diagram
(33:20):
how to do it, and then you can place the
body after that onto a tray in the hospital. Morgan
the cooler to preserve the body until the EMME can
come and get the body. The me might put the
body in a body bag at that point in time.
I don't know. It all depends on what their practice is.
But most of the time, you know, when I've seen
(33:40):
bodies that of individuals, certainly you don't put hospital gowns
on people that are long dead. And you know, what
does it benefit What does it profit them to continue
to do CPR on somebody that if in fact they
sense that there are post mortem changes going on. You know,
(34:01):
Epstein's brother actually states that he was told that he
believes that they believed his brother may have been dead
for at least two and a half hours when he
was discovered. By that moment time, you're going to see
evidence of things like postmarmal abidity, the settling of blood,
which we've talked about extensively on body bags ryger Mortis,
you'll be able to notice some rigidity in the job, which,
(34:23):
by the way, would make it very difficult to intubate
a person because you have to open the mouth to
get the tube in there, which is one of the
steps if you've got somebody in full cardiac arrest. And
respiratory rest. You'll want to get oxygen flowing. Well, it's counterintuitive,
right If somebody's jaws clinched because of riger mortis, that's
an uphill battle. And for anybody that has any sense
(34:46):
about them relative to changes after death, you're going to
recognize that it's a card It's literally what we refer
to as a cardinal sign of death. So and again,
this is the interesting thing, Dave. We still have yet
to even see the EMT run sheet. It has not
been released, and I would love to be able to
(35:07):
view that and be able to get what their initial
assessment was on him when they picked him up at
the MCU.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
I think at this point there are so many things
suspect that going into the autopsy. Now, I'm not shocked
that Mark Epstein said I want to have somebody representing
my family in there. At this point, there were already
so many red flags going up. Mark Epstein is the
(35:35):
reason that doctor Michael Bowden was invited in. I did
not realize he was invited in to watch the autopsy.
I thought it was after the fact. So when you
told me that he was actually in there, I thought, well,
this is interesting.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
So yeah, hey, listen a tip of the cap to
the office's chief medical examiner in this case. And I
have participated in autopsies where families have representative pathologists there
to observe, uh, they generally do not How can I
They're not gonna be the pro sector, which means they're
not going to be the person actually doing the dissection logy,
(36:08):
but they will stand there and generally they won't say
a word. They're gonna but it's kind of it's kind
of let's see, how can I describe it? You become
hyper aware of everything you do because you know that
you're being watched in that environment, and if you're doing
the right thing, it's it's no problem. But can you imagine,
(36:32):
regardless of how anybody feels about doctor Boden, which whom
I respect greatly. I've known doctor Biden for many years,
you've got Michael Boden standing there, I mean, one of
the most renowned forensic pathologists anywhere. You have to know
that all it's a full core press at this point
(36:52):
in time. So doctor Boden is physically there, and according
to Mark Epstein, this is where it really if it
couldn't get any any more bizarre. The actual person that
ruled made the ruling on Epstein's death certificate, and remember
(37:15):
it was first listed as undetermined.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
They actually find on the autopsy, Joe, what did they see?
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Yeah, well that's that's the curious thing. When they did
get the neck dissected. First off, let me tell you this.
I will tell you this. I've seen the images of
Epstein's body, Jeffrey Epstein's body when he is coming there.
There was a camera going when he was being wheeled
into the emergency room. Okay, this is before he's coming
(37:44):
to his body's coming out. You can clearly see his
face and he's cyanoutic, which means he's about the color
of an eggplant, which is consistent. That is consistent with
an asphixial death and also being ins to failure. So
he's really purple in color, which you will see. You
(38:05):
can see it in hangings, you can see it in
manual strangulations. You can see it when somebody is in
great respiratory distress and that blood flow is being impeded
or it backs up to that level in the neck
and it can't kind of recycle the same look.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Whether they did it themselves or had whether I choke
you to death, that you choke yourself out using a
newse same look.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely you can still get that cyanodic appearance.
And it's really profound when you see the image of
him like that, it's striking. As a matter of fact,
it's it's it catches the eye. And one of the
images that I also saw relative to Epstein is his
bottom his lower eyelids being retracted and you can see
(38:53):
the Pettikia eye in there. So he's got burst blood
vessels in, you know, on the sclere of his eye.
Know they're there, which again is indicative of an asphixial death.
It's the question is you get there are fixed as
fhixial deaths and then there's asphixial deaths, and so you
have to kind of try to understand how how do
(39:15):
you come to this? You know, how you how do
you arrive at suicide versus something else, perhaps something more sinister.
When when Epstein's neck was actually dissected, uh, one of
the interesting things that was discovered was the fact that
his thyroid cartilage was fractured. Okay, it's actually got a fracture.
(39:40):
The cartilage is actually fractured. Which is not unusual in
a ligature strangulation. It's also common to see in certain
cases of manual strangulation because if you think about people
throttling somebody and they're applying tremendous force to the UH,
to the thyroid cartilage, it can snap, it can break,
(40:03):
and it's almost like, see, how can I describe it
thyroid cartilage is it's it's like dried wax almost. It
has that kind of feeling to it, and so it
can actually crack, and I would imagine the older you get,
it can possibly possibly become a bit ossified. But here's
the other thing, the other landmark in the neck that
(40:28):
comes into play. It's going to be the right greater
horn of the hyoid bone. And boy have we talked
about hyoid bones over the years. The thing about it
is the hyoid bone is it's it's removed from the
thyroid cartilage. It's up, I mean, it's high. It anchors
the tongue in place, and the right greater horn. If
(40:48):
you think about it, I urge anybody to just google it.
You can look it up and see what it looks like.
So it's the right aspect. It looks like a horseshoe.
So imagine the right aspect of the horseshoe, the very
tip end of it. It's fractured right there. I think
doctor Biden said he may have seen another fracture along there,
but at least I know the greater horn is fractured,
(41:09):
and then the thyroid card loers is fractured, and it's
both on the right side. So how do you arrive
at that with a piece of cloth that you've tied
to the bed that it doesn't have the facility for
you to jump off of to generate enough energy with
your one hundred and eighty pounds to deliver that kind
(41:31):
of force to that specific region where that's going to occur. Now,
is it possible for somebody to sit in that slumped
position with that direct pressure on there, Dave and over
a period of time maybe it snaps because of the
ongoing pressure. Did he sit down forcefully? Could he have
(41:51):
generated enough energy to have sat down that forcefully? Perhaps?
But this is one thing that you cannot escape in
this case. You can I don't care how far and
how fast you run, you can't get away from the
fact that when you see the exterior of Jeffrey Epstein's neck.
(42:12):
That furrow that is on his neck runs parallel to
his shoulders. That means it goes straight back. That's not
the way Noos has worked, Dave, nooses come. It has
an apex in the back it where it's where the
knot is tied. It generally goes up behind the ears
and comes to a point right there. And we actually,
(42:34):
we actually have a term in forensics that's referred to
as tinting feature t E N T I N G.
Not t I N like tinting on a window. This
is tinting like pup tint. And literally it's what it means.
It's it's the shape of a pup tint with the
top of the tint being the apex of the noose itself. Dude,
(42:55):
that doesn't exist in this case. You would see you
would see this scene coming to a point. This thne
goes straight back, Dave, straight back.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
We wouldcause that type of an injury.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
The only thing I could, you know, I sat there
in my mind and I'm thinking, huh, okay, if you
want to go with the hanging, the idea of hanging,
how could you generate a furrow, a ligature furrow that
runs parallel to the shoulders, it goes straight back. Well,
he'd have to be laying face down on the floor
(43:30):
as opposed to sitting up and the noose going up
behind him till it reaches that peak. You would have
it peeking, so that you were laying on the floor
face down with the thing running parallel to your shoulders.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
That's not how they found him.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
No, it's not how did they find him? Well, they
found him, according to Mark Epstein, and according to the reports,
with his buttocks an inch to an inch and a
half off of the floor, which means the body was
being supported by the literature are by the news. So
I don't The question from a scientific standpoint is how
(44:06):
is this explained? And I think that that's very very
difficult to explain that.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
I think it's impossible to explain. But when it got
down to it, looking at this overall, you've got the
autopsy done, you've got the medical examiner, and you've got
doctor Michael Bodden who has been there watching the whole thing.
They actually came to an agreement on what they believed.
Is that not am I being accurate in that?
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Yeah? And here's the thing, And I think that you
and I talked about this off air, and you'd actually
mentioned it to me, and I'd heard it from another
source that doctor Sampson I think, who is the chief
medical examiner for New York. She's the one that initially
ruled this as an undetermined and then changed that ruling
(44:57):
to suicide. Here's the problem. According to Mark Epstein, Samson
was not in the autopsy suite. She's not the one
that did the post. It's doctor Roman, Kristin. I think
it's Christi or Kristin Roman that actually did the autopsy,
with doctor Boden observing physically there. So in such a
(45:24):
complex case like this, why first off, why do you
only have one representative from OCME in there and then
you have doctor Boden. I would think in a high
profile case like this, and I know that they're very busy.
I know they're very busy in New York, and you
know that's the reality of it, but it would seem
(45:47):
to stand the reason I would want to try to
get as many eyes as I possibly could on this case.
As a matter of fact, i'd have people from US Marshalls.
I probably have people from FBI physically, they're observing this,
taking photographs, and I'd want to get everybody's name that
was present in the autopsy suite. We're starting at I
(46:07):
don't know whatever time they're going to start at. At
eight o'clock the next morning. You have an open invitation,
we would strongly advise you to be here. I want
as many people in that room as we possibly can.
We're going to document each and everything, because when you
fail to do that, when you don't have when you
don't have sufficient scientific backing and explanation, you're going to
(46:32):
wind up with questions. And I don't know that we'll
ever have the answers. And I think one more thing,
thinking about this ligature that was used, and if you
have any questions about a ligature relative to the marketing
that it can lead. I do this with my students
(46:54):
at Jacksonville State to try to demonstrate the distribution of
force on a surface. If you take an apple, for instance,
and if you have like a piece of nylon, you
wrap it around the circumference of the apple. As you
(47:15):
begin to tighten that nylon, it can be even dental floss.
You'll see that it creates a very narrow furrow in
the surface of that piece of fruit. And it goes deep.
Whereas if you use something like, I don't know, a
necktie to try to create a furrow, that furrow, though
(47:39):
it's going to be wide, it's going to be very
very shallow. Dave. In this particular case, this furrow that
runs parallel to the shoulders of Epstein is deep. It's
not something that you would commonly associate with a piece
of cloth running across the neck, unless that piece of
cloth was twisted so very tightly that it would produce
(48:03):
this more narrow surface. But here's the problem. We never
got to see that news, did we, because that noose
wasn't collected for evidence. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this
is body backs
Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. In nineteen seventy two,
when my father, who had just gotten out of the
Marine Corps, relocated our family to Georgia from Louisiana, I
(00:30):
was a kid. He took me for a drive in Atlanta, Georgia,
and you know how it is when you're little, The
world that you're surrounded by. At that age seems so big.
You can go to your grandparents' house, you can think
(00:51):
about it. Back then, things seem so much bigger than
they they actually were, particularly when you get to revisit
those locations as an adult. But you know, back then,
in nineteen seventy two, I was in the front seat
of his forward pickup truck and moved driving down the road.
(01:12):
He said, I'm going to take you somewhere and show
you where the meanest men in America live. Now, this
is in Atlanta, Georgia, And I had no idea. I
didn't even know anything about Atlanta. We just moved there.
So we're riding down the road and suddenly I looked
through the windshield. At his direction, he said, look straight ahead,
(01:35):
and all I could see was this big gray mass
of buildings surrounded by fencing, and as we grew closer
and closer, those buildings filled up the entire windshield. You
couldn't see anything but gray mass of gray stone. And
(02:00):
what I was looking at was actually the Federal penitentiary
that is located in Atlanta, Georgia, and it looked scary,
and as I came to find out later, some of
the most notorious criminals in America had been placed there
(02:21):
and had passed through there at some point time. I
was amazed at the names. And even as an adult
when I began to work in Atlanta as a representative
of the Medical Examiner's Office, every now and then i'd
have to drive by that prison, and even in a
passing glance, that child that I was back in seventy
(02:44):
two would re emerge, and I still viewed that place
as very, very scary. But there's another scary place that
is a federal facility, and it's located in Manhattan, and
we're going to talk today about one of the former
residents there. We're going to talk about the death of
(03:07):
Jeffrey Epstein. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body Bags, Dave.
I thought about you. You and I have these so
many commonalities growing up essentially roughly the same circa. I guess,
do you have those memories of places that were daunting
(03:28):
to you as a child and then maybe you revisit
them when you're older And it doesn't seem that way.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
When I was a kid growing up in southern California,
and as we would drive from where we lived in
Orange County to grand my grandpa and grandmother's house in
North Hollywood, we would drive by downtown Los Angeles. You
could see all the buildings, the important buildings, and I
was a little kid, okay, but I remember my mother
(03:54):
pointing to one of the buildings and saying, that is
where Sir Hans Sirhan is right now, and she would
give it. We had five kids in our failure, and
my mother would give the history of who he was
and other criminals that were localized. But that's the one
I remember the most was and she said, when you
get older, you need to look into that. And she
(04:15):
wasn't a conspiracy person, but she was very top of
topical current active, you know, in politics and things. And
I remember this building and it was it's a building
like if you watch dragonet or Adam twelve or any
of the you know shows from the late sixties and
early seventies Prime in LA they had the same building,
the municipal building, and yeah, I remember that, and I
remember I would always try to look at the top
of it to see if one if he's looking out
(04:36):
the window, you know that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
No, kidd, And you know what that building is so iconic.
I think it's actually on LAPD's badge.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Probably is.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
When you look at an LAPD badge, that building is
on there, and it's really cool. Those badges are something
to see. But yeah, yeah, there are those moments in
Tom that you know that you kind of drift back.
Stepping back just a second. I have to say that
the morning that he was discovered deceased, I had a
(05:12):
producer at then HLN that doesn't exist anymore, reach out
to me and say can you come to studio? We would,
and I'll never forget it. I was on air with
this one of my favorite reporters, a lady named Elizabeth Prant.
And the reason I really like her as her husband
(05:33):
was a picture for the Braves and she.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
I had asked her about her husband.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
But you know the I remember sitting there and having
heard everything about Epstein over the years leading up to
this moment in time where he was now confirmed to
be deceased. I was thinking, it was kind of a
surreal moment, you know, because they're flashing and when you're
(05:58):
in one of these studios, flashing up on the screen,
those big images, you know, and I could you try
not to look at the images because you're looking at
the person talking to you, right, I couldn't help it.
I kept cutting my eye over and I was thinking,
they've got me here talking about this on a Sunday morning.
I was amazed that I was having that conversation. And
(06:20):
I remember then thinking, you know, how in the world
could arguably, I guess, one of the most recognizable convicted
and also continued to be accused criminals in the world
be dead, be dead in a federal facility. That when
(06:43):
you think about it, you know, I think that our
mind often defaults to this idea that, Okay, it's a
federal it's a federal facility, it's a lockdown. It's probably
arguably maybe one of the most secure places in all
of Manhattan, Italy, not the Eastern Seaboard. I don't know,
(07:04):
but he nonetheless, he was dead.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
They kept all the biggest, hardest criminals up there. But
while they were in the process of heading to trial,
his roommate, you know, at the time his seally was
a cop who at a former cop who had killed
four people, you know, was a bodybuilder steroid. Between that
who and was a big crime guy there. I mean,
they had the biggest criminals in the right. There, here's
the key though. You mentioned the day he was found dead.
(07:27):
I remember before that, on July twenty third, when he
was attacked in his cell or committed tried to commit
suicide depending, all right, we covered that on Nancy Grace
got a phone call that hey, we got to get
on this story. And so before the death we were
going in death. We'd already done a number of stories
on Epstein and Gallainne Maxwell trying to figureut how to
(07:48):
spell her.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Name and pronounce it.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Oh yeah, that was butchered so many times until we
finally got to Gilaine. Anyway, we covered it. For those
of you listening to the programmed Body Bags, if you
don't know did Jeffrey Epstein story, we could start talking
about it now. I looked over the timeline and we
could do five shows on it, not get all the
information and still not make it to where we're starting today.
(08:11):
Right now, we're at the point where Jeffrey Epstein is
in jail. He has been arrested and charged with a
number of crimes, and they all involve sex with minors,
with underage young ladies, and the abuse is in rape,
and it's pretty extensive because of his friends. He had
friends that stretched all the way to the Royal Palace
in England, to the White House in Washington, DC and
(08:34):
many points in between. He's a multi millionaire. On July
twenty third, he was already in prison, he was already
at MCC and we got this story that he had
tried to commit suicide. We didn't know if he was dead,
We didn't know what was going on, but it turned
out that he had injuries. One seven in the morning,
July twenty third, corrections officers responded to his cell, where
(08:56):
they found him with an orange cloth around his neck.
His cell mate told officers that Epstein tried to hang himself.
Medical staff examined Epstein, observed friction marks and superficial reddening
around his neck and on his knee, and they placed
him on suicide watch. Border Prison's policy requires that inmates
identified as suicide rigs be placed on suicide watch until
(09:18):
they're no longer ineminent threat. I mean's watching them twenty
four to seven camera not you know, all the time,
and it gets less restrictive. But the reason this is
important is because of what happened here. At first, it
was his cell he's saying he tried to commit suicide.
But they looked at him like, well, the injuries don't
match a suicide, you know, it doesn't fit and the
(09:39):
like and by the way, why didn't you stop him?
Or why didn't you tell somebody you know? And then
it went well, I'm not sure, and Epstein said he
didn't know what happened. He didn't remember anything. At first,
he said his cell mate attacked him. That was the
other thing. He said, his cell mate attacked him and
tried to kill him. And then when they came back
and like, okay, some may said you tried to commit suicide,
you're saying it was the cell mate. And by then
(09:59):
Epstein changes it story. He says, I don't know what happened.
I can't remember anything, and I'm not talking anymore. And
that was it.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Yeah, that sounds obviously I don't know. My first reaction
to that, Dave, when you say it, is that this
sounds like somebody that's terrified. And let's let's look back
at this guy. We're talking about how much money he had,
just the home that he had in Manhattan, this brownstone
that he'd lived in. I guess you would call it
a brownstone. Some people refer to it as a mansion.
(10:27):
By New York standards, that structure alone is massive, and
I think by anybody's standards, this guy has money. Obviously,
they talk about Little Saint James the island, you know,
who owns an island, And then you think about this
huge ranch out in New Mexico that just goes on vast,
(10:52):
you know, and you hear all of these stories, and
one of the things that always troubled me, and I
don't know, maybe I'm just applying too much lodge without
enough data, but I begin to think about all of
these young women that had been brought into his sphere.
(11:12):
And many of these young women were from places like
Eastern Europe, and allegedly many of them were not just underage,
they were significantly underage. And I had thoughts about this, Dave.
You know, So after you're done with these young women?
(11:35):
Do you put them back on a flight and take
them to these nowhere places in eastern Europe where they're
recruited from? Where do you go? Do you just do
you take them into the US and just like you know,
a caged cage doves, you just kind of let them
go and fly where they want. Are they wandering around somewhere?
What happened to all of those women, those young girls.
(11:57):
That was always a head scratcher for me because the
story still has blanks that have yet to be filled in.
But I know this, I know that he's He's deceased,
obviously and under very suspicious circumstances. And for me, as
a death investigator, what I have heard and certainly now
(12:23):
based upon the photographs that have been released from autopsy,
have observed none of these injuries marry up with a
classic presentation for him. I've never told you this, Dave.
(12:56):
I hated working cases in jail for and I've had
to over the years. I've had to go for hangings,
natural desks, I've had to visit jil infirmaries for sabbings.
I hate it. I despise it. I think a lot
of it has to do with. You're treated like an
(13:18):
inmate when you show up, you know, because all of
us forends that guys have. You know, we have scene bags,
we have seen kits, and they have to go through
all of that stuff. Not that I'm bringing in anything
you know that I shouldn't have, but they're going to
check you out thoroughly if you're if you're carrying a weapon,
you have to surrender that. And then you know, you
(13:38):
walk in and you know that old adage about hearing
that door shut behind you. It's a real thing, man,
I mean, it really is. And and the odd thing
about being inside of a facility like this is that
any noise that is made in there because of the structure,
(14:00):
because of the stone walls or poured walls and all
of the metal framing, it amplifies in that environment. So
if somebody in a cell, you know, down the way, coughs,
you hear it, it sounds like they're right next to you.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
And so when you go to a jail to examine somebody,
do you actually get them? Do you actually go to
where it took place, like in the cell?
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Oh yeah, yeah, I've specifically done that. Not all people
are removed from cells and taken to an infirmary. And
you know, and that's one of the things that had
occurred allegedly with Epstein. His brother had talked about it extensively.
Where when Epstein was discovered, one of the jailers actually
(14:46):
either the jailer had conflicting statements. He said that he
tore and then he said he cut this noose away
from him that is tied off of the top bunk rail.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
And let's back up and get to that. Let's back
up for a minute, Joe, because in reality, when you
get there, I have a big question for you about
just because when I wanted to set it up properly
with July twenty third, twenty fourth, because that attack is
where why this shouldn't have happened. This the reason there
is such a focus on July eight. I'm in August eight,
(15:21):
ninth and tenth in Jeffrey Epstein's life and death is
because of July twenty third, twenty fourth. The man they called,
they think he's seriously injured. They go to his cell.
He says, my celly beat me up, tried to kill me.
The cell mate says he tried to commit suicide. And
then as you said, he's so scared. He says, I
want to keep this guy as my cell mate, and
I don't know what happened. I'm not talking anymore, so
(15:43):
you know, some threat. Something happened, and they analyzed him,
they worked with him, they put him on suicide watch.
They did all the things they needed to do. But
on July thirtieth, the Psychology Department sent an email to
seventy mcc New York and play He's explaining the need
for an appropriate cell mate for Jeffrey Epstein. They sent
(16:05):
that because the cellmate that was leaving was the former
New York cop who had killed four people, later convicted
and sentenced to prison. But they knew that he was
going to be transferred out of the cell on August eighth,
and there needed to be another replacement. He was not
to be left alone because of July twenty third, twenty fourth.
Jeffrey Epstein was not to be left alone. He was
(16:29):
also supposed to be on suicide watch because of July
twenty third, twenty fourth, but as it turned out, by
August eighth, US Marshall Service sent two emails notifying the
MCC staff that Epstein's cellmate was being transferred to another
facility on August ninth. No action was taken to make
sure Epstein had a suitable roommate a cell mate. Epstein
(16:52):
met with his attorneys on August the eighth at the prison,
not unusual for a criminal, but that particular meeting. On
August the eighth, Jeffrey Epstein signed a new last will
and testament. On August ninth, Epstein's cellmate was removed. This
is the lead up from July twenty third, twenty fourth.
There have been multiple emails passed, do not let this
(17:15):
man alone keep a roommate in there. His roommate leaves.
Jeffrey Epstein's left alone. August ninth, after a meeting at
the prison with his lawyers, the mcc New York staff
allowed Epstein to make a phone call in violation of
Board of Prison's policy. It was unrecorded, unmonitored. They don't
(17:35):
know who he talked to. They know what he claimed
to talk to, but they believe it was somebody else
that he had a relationship with. So he's on the
phone talking privately with somebody and that wasn't recorded or
report monitored or anything, so no telling what he said.
Epstein did say, he was calling his mother, but they
said it with someone else anyway. August ninth. August ninth,
(17:56):
inmates are locked in their cells at eight pm, Epstein
is in a c I'll buy himself for the first time.
When they next found him at six thirty the next morning,
they found him dead. Now before they cut the noos
off and everything else. Okay, tell me what was going
on in that room in Jeffrey Epstein's cell based on
(18:18):
the information we have now at six thirty in the morning,
when the guy comes in there to check in and
finds out he's dead, we'll deal with all the things
that went wrong to allow that to happen. But bottom line,
there was no cell mate as there was supposed to be,
and he's dead at six thirty in the morning.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
When when he's discovered, according to the reports, his buttocks
he's in a semi seated position. And yes, you can
hang yourself while slumped seated. I've had people on their
knees that have hung themselves. You do not have to
be fully suspended. He was seated, but his buttocks was
(18:58):
roughly an inch to an inch and a half off
of the floor. So when you have people that hang
themselves they have a tendency many times to kind of
slip into it and slide slowly down. There's a term
that's been floating around and it's actually referred to as
(19:19):
a soft hanging as opposed to say it just think
back to Western movies with the gallows, where which would
be a hard hanging where you have somebody that drops
the force that air body Jeffrey Epstein weighed approximately one
hundred and eighty pounds, and but you don't have this
(19:40):
dropping effect. You have somebody that is kind of slowly
seated going down. But since their body is not being
since his body is allegedly not being supported by the floor,
where does that leave the weight. Well, the weight is
totally being supported by this noose that has been formed
(20:02):
and that is around his neck. Here's the problem. When
they got to him, the guard, the corrections officer said
that he either at first he said he tore then
he said he cut the noose away. The noose was
(20:26):
not recovered and put into evidence. There was another noose
that had been tied previously in the cell that was
recovered and there's actually an image of it that you
can see. Anybody, I recommend strongly that you go and
take a look at it.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
There were two nooses, one that was around his neck
and one that was just in the room.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yeah, and there's ripped up that Look, there's ripped up orange.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Uh, so many sheets in there.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
That's my big question. And here's another point as well,
why is this damn place so disordered? Dave? It looks
like squalor that he's living in.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
And these areas, these cells are usually pretty AUSTEREI they
don't have a lot of stuff in them because they
don't want the inmates to be able to hide anything,
squirrelling anything away that they can then turn into a
means of negotiation. Oh listen, the extra blankets and things
can turn into money in jail.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Well do you remember the sixty minutes episode that came
out in the wake of his death, And sixty minutes
was the first CBS sixty minutes was the first people
to put up images. And I did a screen capture
on some of these things, and those images when you
see them. That top bunk that he was, he suspended
(21:36):
from the side of it. But the top bunk itself,
let us sink in, didn't have a mattress in it.
It was just a flat frame. There is a mattress
on the floor. There's a mattress on the lower bunk,
but where the mattress would have been on that top bunk, Dave,
there's prescription medications up there. You can see them lined up.
And you know, in my experience, one of the things
that happens in jails is that you are either if
(21:59):
you're having to take medication, you go to the infirmary
and they hand you the medication and they dole it
out in the little white cups, or a pharmacy cart
comes by with a coe along with it and they
will give you your meds through the door. This guy
had meds inside of his cell. How do you explain
(22:22):
that with this idea that he has suicidal ideation or
that he has he is attempted to Why are the
prescription meds in there now? He's also got a seapap machine,
which I think plays into this as well. The cord
is laying there adjacent to it on the floor, and
then there's all these ripped up bits of cloth, orange cloth,
(22:42):
and it looks like you know, for me, I always
imagine jail cells to almost have a military feel to it,
like you get punished if the place is not squared away.
You're not supposed to be laying on your bunk. You're
supposed to be you can sit on your bunk with
your feet on the floor. You can sit in a
chair that they might provide to you. You can sit
(23:03):
on the floor. You're not supposed to be late. It's
supposed to have almost this ordered not necessarily spartan, but
it's supposed to be squared away. This place was far
from it.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Well, you mentioned the seapat machine. His brother Mark has
really come out in the last several weeks and has
made a lot of comments. And Mark Epstein actually and
it was Mark Epstein who actually asked doctor Michael Bodden
to observe the autopsy, which I want to get into that,
but it was in one of the interviews Mark Epstein
did where he talked about the seapat machine and he said,
(23:36):
you know, there's all these strips of cloth and sheets
that are torn into making news. Wouldn't the electrical cave,
you know, plug on the seapat machine been so much
easier to use. It would have been less time, would
have been a lot tougher to it just would have
been a better thing to do than these the sheets.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Yeah, it's kind of indwelling rigidity, which selling rigidity. Yeah,
you know you've got the wires. They are encased inside
of a rubber sheath, so it's it's literally reinforced. I've
had people I actually had I know of a lady
that was on a psych unit and I had to
go to the psych unit and work her her death
(24:13):
because she was in the acute ward and the nurses
had let her keep her hair dryer and she hung
herself with her hair dryer. I've seen this done before.
It is very much. And again she was seated, she
was seated on the floor and kind of and she
was on the other side of a hospital bed, tied
off on the rail, slid down onto the floor, and
she died. So don't try to tell me that it's
(24:34):
not possible for this to have occurred. And when you
can facilitate it, and you have this rigid, semi rigid
cord that would certainly support the one hundred and eighty
pound man, but you're you're going to defer to a
piece of cloth to utilize it. And let's face it,
(24:54):
this is not like high end you know, material. It
would be easy to tear perhaps, and it's hard to
fashion something out of it that that would that would
work effectively. I'm not saying it couldn't work. I'm just
saying that it's it wouldn't be your first choice in
a circumstance like this. And again with all of those medications. Certainly,
(25:16):
if you were that desperate to take your own life
and you had access to these, why wouldn't you do it?
Why wouldn't you take the backing off of the off
of the seapap machine, plug the thing, the cord, the
bare cord into the wall, and hold on to the
ends of it and an electrocute yourself. I don't know,
there's any number of ways you could do it. But
yet he chose, according to them, to rip up sheets,
(25:39):
sheets or clothing and utilize this as some kind of
homemade ligature it And it just doesn't marry up in
my mind.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
It also seems like if you were going to if
you were going to take your own life in a
jail cell, you would be mindful of guards walking by
watching video, and you would you would be on the
alert for somebody to catch you. And I would think,
considering what happened July twenty third, twenty fourth with whatever
happened there, whether he was attacked by his cell mat
(26:09):
or tried to commit suicide. They he knew that at
one pint thirty in the morning, they would get found
out fairly quickly. He wouldn't have a bunch of extra
scraps of cloth ripped. He would just get whatever he
needed and start and do it. Just get it over with. Yeah,
and you've got this other cord that would work better.
So why is there why are there so many strips
(26:30):
of unused cloth, like he's doing a project for school
instead of just getting whatever I have to do to
kill myself before the guards come back.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Yeah. And you know, in my in my history of
working suicides, people think that it's kind of this long
drawn out process where people sit down and write this
longe notes or the exception, and most of the time,
and the reason I'm saying this is that many times,
once people have decided to do this, they do it.
(27:00):
It's kind of like standing on a cliff and you're
going to jump into a body of water. Everybody's you know,
standing there waiting for you to do it, and finally
you get up the gumption to do it, and you
do it. Why wouldn't he just move forward with that
action and take that action. At that moment, Tom he
sits there and kind of ruminates over this. I don't know.
I guess he did. But you know, the one thing
(27:21):
that we don't know is we don't really know what
his activities were now, do we, because cameras weren't working.
The documentation is shoddy at best, particularly as it applies
to an inmate that you are actually saying has suicidal ideation.
You know, you need to be on this guy twenty
(27:42):
four to seven and listen. You cannot lack this. You
cannot have this lack of self awareness in the world.
You know who he is. I'm not saying he should
be treated better than anybody else, but certainly you do
grasp the concept that disguise in the national news that
(28:04):
if he is an accused pedophile, that there might be
people within this environment that don't particularly care for pedophiles.
We know what happens in incarcerated situations with people that
do harm to children, and Lord knows he at that time,
he's probably the most famous in the world at this
(28:24):
level that has been accused of this thing and having
done this over and over and over again. It would
seem that it would compel the staff to be even
more vigilant, if you will. But of course, in the
case of Jeffrey Epstein, that didn't happen. As a medical
(28:57):
legal death investigator, I have visited every emergency room within
all of the jurisdictions I have worked in. You spend
a lot of time in emergency rooms, believe it or not.
You show up if you're working for the corner of
the medical examiner, because that's where the remains are, and
you're notified. You're the first person notified when somebody dies.
(29:18):
Many times I'd go to the emergency room just so
I could take a look, maybe do my own examination,
take photos, and then I would determine that moment time
if we need to bring the body in for an
autopsy or just release the body. But you know, Dave,
the best way to observe any dead body is in
its pristine state in the cells. In this case, in
(29:43):
the cell. And but you know that didn't happen. And
even though Jeffrey Epstein was taken down and then removed
to the infirmary, they didn't stop there. They went on
to a hospital.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
At that point in time, to get there to be
caught up to where we are with the body, because
we've got to get into the autopsy. But Epstein wasn't
supposed to be alone.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
He was.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
The guards were supposed to be watching. They were supposed
to be going by every thirty minutes at least, and
they were supposed to be watching on video. We now
know the video cameras were not working. We know that
the guards did not check the cell, not just every
thirty minutes, not just every hour. They probably were asleep
and or on the internet googling things face but whatever.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
You mean the guards that were convicted.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Yes, the guards that were convicted for not doing their
job and then lying about it. Yeah, Yes, those are
the guards I'm talking about.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I just wanted to make sure.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Yeah, mag I'm glad you got that in because that
it's an important part of the story that went into this,
because it suicide or murder. Well, that's what we've got
to know. And right now, Joe, I have a lot
of suspicion about how many times they were warned, don't
leave him alone, how many times they were warning to
watch him, like who took him off suicide watch when
they knew that this guy was a potential threat for suicide, right,
(31:00):
But when they took his body out of the cell,
he could have been dead for up to six hours
at that time, Joe, And yet they still went through
he was dead. They still went through all the motions
of putting a gown on him at the hospital like
he was a live guy there and took him into
the hospital. I'm bringing that up because is that a
(31:23):
common occurrence to take a dead body and obviously dead
body and put a hospital gown on them at the hospital.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
It seems like you're going to great and most of
the time. Okay, let me explain it to you this way.
His clothing was cut away from his body, which is
standard that does happen because you well, so well, the
EMTs had cut it away apparently, which is even kind
of more interesting because he went to the infirmary so
after the EMTs nine when one call was placed, So
(31:53):
after they made it through all the levels of security
with everything they have to make it through therewith with
all of the kits and all that stuff, they finally
show up in the infirmary where heroic measures being taken,
where they still ongoing at that moment time because we
do know that one of the guards started CPR on
it and started doing chess compressions. Did that continue on
(32:15):
into the infirmary and then and then the EMTs took
over at that point in time as they are transporting
him to the hospital to the emergency room. But back
to your question about it, is it common for them
to put a hospital gown some people. I've heard some
people call him a Johnny Coke, which is kind of interesting,
(32:37):
you know, ties in the back. We've all been subjected
to this humiliation in our lives. Probably the times I've
seen that happen are generally times where you're gonna have
family come by and see a body, because other than that,
what's what's the point? Because they can be covered with
(33:00):
the sheet and in hospitals they use what's referred to
as a morg pack, which is a plastic It's different
than a body bag, but it is a plastic sheet
that bodies are almost rolled up in and then it's
got strings that you tied off on the midsection, you
tied off on the ends. It comes with a diagram
(33:20):
how to do it, and then you can place the
body after that onto a tray in the hospital. Morgan
the cooler to preserve the body until the EMME can
come and get the body. The me might put the
body in a body bag at that point in time.
I don't know. It all depends on what their practice is.
But most of the time, you know, when I've seen
(33:40):
bodies that of individuals, certainly you don't put hospital gowns
on people that are long dead. And you know, what
does it benefit What does it profit them to continue
to do CPR on somebody that if in fact they
sense that there are post mortem changes going on. You know,
(34:01):
Epstein's brother actually states that he was told that he
believes that they believed his brother may have been dead
for at least two and a half hours when he
was discovered. By that moment time, you're going to see
evidence of things like postmarmal abidity, the settling of blood,
which we've talked about extensively on body bags ryger Mortis,
you'll be able to notice some rigidity in the job, which,
(34:23):
by the way, would make it very difficult to intubate
a person because you have to open the mouth to
get the tube in there, which is one of the
steps if you've got somebody in full cardiac arrest. And
respiratory rest. You'll want to get oxygen flowing. Well, it's counterintuitive,
right If somebody's jaws clinched because of riger mortis, that's
an uphill battle. And for anybody that has any sense
(34:46):
about them relative to changes after death, you're going to
recognize that it's a card It's literally what we refer
to as a cardinal sign of death. So and again,
this is the interesting thing, Dave. We still have yet
to even see the EMT run sheet. It has not
been released, and I would love to be able to
(35:07):
view that and be able to get what their initial
assessment was on him when they picked him up at
the MCU.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
I think at this point there are so many things
suspect that going into the autopsy. Now, I'm not shocked
that Mark Epstein said I want to have somebody representing
my family in there. At this point, there were already
so many red flags going up. Mark Epstein is the
(35:35):
reason that doctor Michael Bowden was invited in. I did
not realize he was invited in to watch the autopsy.
I thought it was after the fact. So when you
told me that he was actually in there, I thought, well,
this is interesting.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
So yeah, hey, listen a tip of the cap to
the office's chief medical examiner in this case. And I
have participated in autopsies where families have representative pathologists there
to observe, uh, they generally do not How can I
They're not gonna be the pro sector, which means they're
not going to be the person actually doing the dissection logy,
(36:08):
but they will stand there and generally they won't say
a word. They're gonna but it's kind of it's kind
of let's see, how can I describe it? You become
hyper aware of everything you do because you know that
you're being watched in that environment, and if you're doing
the right thing, it's it's no problem. But can you imagine,
(36:32):
regardless of how anybody feels about doctor Boden, which whom
I respect greatly. I've known doctor Biden for many years,
you've got Michael Boden standing there, I mean, one of
the most renowned forensic pathologists anywhere. You have to know
that all it's a full core press at this point
(36:52):
in time. So doctor Boden is physically there, and according
to Mark Epstein, this is where it really if it
couldn't get any any more bizarre. The actual person that
ruled made the ruling on Epstein's death certificate, and remember
(37:15):
it was first listed as undetermined.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
They actually find on the autopsy, Joe, what did they see?
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Yeah, well that's that's the curious thing. When they did
get the neck dissected. First off, let me tell you this.
I will tell you this. I've seen the images of
Epstein's body, Jeffrey Epstein's body when he is coming there.
There was a camera going when he was being wheeled
into the emergency room. Okay, this is before he's coming
(37:44):
to his body's coming out. You can clearly see his
face and he's cyanoutic, which means he's about the color
of an eggplant, which is consistent. That is consistent with
an asphixial death and also being ins to failure. So
he's really purple in color, which you will see. You
(38:05):
can see it in hangings, you can see it in
manual strangulations. You can see it when somebody is in
great respiratory distress and that blood flow is being impeded
or it backs up to that level in the neck
and it can't kind of recycle the same look.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Whether they did it themselves or had whether I choke
you to death, that you choke yourself out using a
newse same look.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely you can still get that cyanodic appearance.
And it's really profound when you see the image of
him like that, it's striking. As a matter of fact,
it's it's it catches the eye. And one of the
images that I also saw relative to Epstein is his
bottom his lower eyelids being retracted and you can see
(38:53):
the Pettikia eye in there. So he's got burst blood
vessels in, you know, on the sclere of his eye.
Know they're there, which again is indicative of an asphixial death.
It's the question is you get there are fixed as
fhixial deaths and then there's asphixial deaths, and so you
have to kind of try to understand how how do
(39:15):
you come to this? You know, how you how do
you arrive at suicide versus something else, perhaps something more sinister.
When when Epstein's neck was actually dissected, uh, one of
the interesting things that was discovered was the fact that
his thyroid cartilage was fractured. Okay, it's actually got a fracture.
(39:40):
The cartilage is actually fractured. Which is not unusual in
a ligature strangulation. It's also common to see in certain
cases of manual strangulation because if you think about people
throttling somebody and they're applying tremendous force to the UH,
to the thyroid cartilage, it can snap, it can break,
(40:03):
and it's almost like, see, how can I describe it
thyroid cartilage is it's it's like dried wax almost. It
has that kind of feeling to it, and so it
can actually crack, and I would imagine the older you get,
it can possibly possibly become a bit ossified. But here's
the other thing, the other landmark in the neck that
(40:28):
comes into play. It's going to be the right greater
horn of the hyoid bone. And boy have we talked
about hyoid bones over the years. The thing about it
is the hyoid bone is it's it's removed from the
thyroid cartilage. It's up, I mean, it's high. It anchors
the tongue in place, and the right greater horn. If
(40:48):
you think about it, I urge anybody to just google it.
You can look it up and see what it looks like.
So it's the right aspect. It looks like a horseshoe.
So imagine the right aspect of the horseshoe, the very
tip end of it. It's fractured right there. I think
doctor Biden said he may have seen another fracture along there,
but at least I know the greater horn is fractured,
(41:09):
and then the thyroid card loers is fractured, and it's
both on the right side. So how do you arrive
at that with a piece of cloth that you've tied
to the bed that it doesn't have the facility for
you to jump off of to generate enough energy with
your one hundred and eighty pounds to deliver that kind
(41:31):
of force to that specific region where that's going to occur. Now,
is it possible for somebody to sit in that slumped
position with that direct pressure on there, Dave and over
a period of time maybe it snaps because of the
ongoing pressure. Did he sit down forcefully? Could he have
(41:51):
generated enough energy to have sat down that forcefully? Perhaps?
But this is one thing that you cannot escape in
this case. You can I don't care how far and
how fast you run, you can't get away from the
fact that when you see the exterior of Jeffrey Epstein's neck.
(42:12):
That furrow that is on his neck runs parallel to
his shoulders. That means it goes straight back. That's not
the way Noos has worked, Dave, nooses come. It has
an apex in the back it where it's where the
knot is tied. It generally goes up behind the ears
and comes to a point right there. And we actually,
(42:34):
we actually have a term in forensics that's referred to
as tinting feature t E N T I N G.
Not t I N like tinting on a window. This
is tinting like pup tint. And literally it's what it means.
It's it's the shape of a pup tint with the
top of the tint being the apex of the noose itself. Dude,
(42:55):
that doesn't exist in this case. You would see you
would see this scene coming to a point. This thne
goes straight back, Dave, straight back.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
We wouldcause that type of an injury.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
The only thing I could, you know, I sat there
in my mind and I'm thinking, huh, okay, if you
want to go with the hanging, the idea of hanging,
how could you generate a furrow, a ligature furrow that
runs parallel to the shoulders, it goes straight back. Well,
he'd have to be laying face down on the floor
(43:30):
as opposed to sitting up and the noose going up
behind him till it reaches that peak. You would have
it peeking, so that you were laying on the floor
face down with the thing running parallel to your shoulders.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
That's not how they found him.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
No, it's not how did they find him? Well, they
found him, according to Mark Epstein, and according to the reports,
with his buttocks an inch to an inch and a
half off of the floor, which means the body was
being supported by the literature are by the news. So
I don't The question from a scientific standpoint is how
(44:06):
is this explained? And I think that that's very very
difficult to explain that.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
I think it's impossible to explain. But when it got
down to it, looking at this overall, you've got the
autopsy done, you've got the medical examiner, and you've got
doctor Michael Bodden who has been there watching the whole thing.
They actually came to an agreement on what they believed.
Is that not am I being accurate in that?
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Yeah? And here's the thing, And I think that you
and I talked about this off air, and you'd actually
mentioned it to me, and I'd heard it from another
source that doctor Sampson I think, who is the chief
medical examiner for New York. She's the one that initially
ruled this as an undetermined and then changed that ruling
(44:57):
to suicide. Here's the problem. According to Mark Epstein, Samson
was not in the autopsy suite. She's not the one
that did the post. It's doctor Roman, Kristin. I think
it's Christi or Kristin Roman that actually did the autopsy,
with doctor Boden observing physically there. So in such a
(45:24):
complex case like this, why first off, why do you
only have one representative from OCME in there and then
you have doctor Boden. I would think in a high
profile case like this, and I know that they're very busy.
I know they're very busy in New York, and you
know that's the reality of it, but it would seem
(45:47):
to stand the reason I would want to try to
get as many eyes as I possibly could on this case.
As a matter of fact, i'd have people from US Marshalls.
I probably have people from FBI physically, they're observing this,
taking photographs, and I'd want to get everybody's name that
was present in the autopsy suite. We're starting at I
(46:07):
don't know whatever time they're going to start at. At
eight o'clock the next morning. You have an open invitation,
we would strongly advise you to be here. I want
as many people in that room as we possibly can.
We're going to document each and everything, because when you
fail to do that, when you don't have when you
don't have sufficient scientific backing and explanation, you're going to
(46:32):
wind up with questions. And I don't know that we'll
ever have the answers. And I think one more thing,
thinking about this ligature that was used, and if you
have any questions about a ligature relative to the marketing
that it can lead. I do this with my students
(46:54):
at Jacksonville State to try to demonstrate the distribution of
force on a surface. If you take an apple, for instance,
and if you have like a piece of nylon, you
wrap it around the circumference of the apple. As you
(47:15):
begin to tighten that nylon, it can be even dental floss.
You'll see that it creates a very narrow furrow in
the surface of that piece of fruit. And it goes deep.
Whereas if you use something like, I don't know, a
necktie to try to create a furrow, that furrow, though
(47:39):
it's going to be wide, it's going to be very
very shallow. Dave. In this particular case, this furrow that
runs parallel to the shoulders of Epstein is deep. It's
not something that you would commonly associate with a piece
of cloth running across the neck, unless that piece of
cloth was twisted so very tightly that it would produce
(48:03):
this more narrow surface. But here's the problem. We never
got to see that news, did we, because that noose
wasn't collected for evidence. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this
is body backs
Host
Joseph Scott Morgan
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