September 10, 2025 • 46 mins
Noah Presgrove's estate filed a wrongful death lawsuit in June naming Jack Newton, his father, Caleb Newton, and five others.
So far, the only response came from Jack Newton and Caleb Newton. The other defendants in the wrongful death suit include Avery Jo Howard, Carter Combs, Johnnie Trout Wilcoxson Jr., Stevie Howard, and Logan Jernigan.
Avery, Carter, and Logan allegedly threw the party Noah attended on Johnnie's property, in a home owned by Stevie, according to the suit. In the wrongful death suit, Jack Newton is alleged to have gotten alcohol for the party, and his father, Caleb Newton, allowed them to use the vehicle that Noah rolled over.
The UPDATE is the response filed by the attorney for Jack Newton (supposed to be Noah's best friend) and his father, who claim Noah's death two years ago was "an unavoidable accident, casualty, and misfortune," AND they blame Noah!!!!!!
Transcribe Highlights
00:00.42 Introduction
02:35.80 Noah Presgrove Horror Movie
08:12:51 Pedestrian vs Vehicle
10:20.99 Story of decapitation in car wreck
15:42.11 Injuries suffered by Noah
19:57.61 10 Broken ribs and more
25:16.27 Description of road rash
30:08.08 Skin torn to the bone
35:15.49 Were teeth knocked out or fractured
39:15.13 Was intoxicated
46:42.97 Conclusion
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Body dots. But Joseph's gotten more. There's no other feeling
in the world like being young and being with your friends.
And I'm talking about that group of friends that you
hang out with, that group of friends like you get
excited if you're going to see them, you're going to
(00:22):
spend a protracted period of time together. And look, I
got to confess partying, all right. And look, man, there's
nothing wrong with partying, particularly when you're young, because I
can tell you when you get old, you ain't gonna
do it. You're gonna be in bed by eight. But
there was a young man who did go and hang
(00:44):
out with friends to enjoy I don't know, a long
weekend over a labor day. He went into it, probably
full of excitement, enthusiastic about seeing his buddies, fasten a
bottle around, riding on atv out in the country where
(01:08):
the only illumination is starlight. The only problem is is
at the end of that weekend, after all the partying
had been done, he had wound up dead on the
side of a road with more trauma than anyone can
possibly imagine. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body bags.
(01:39):
Brother Dave we have got an update. We've got an
update today relatively to Yeah it is No Press Grove.
I didn't look. You know, it's one of these things
that kind of you know, we cover these cases and
I'd probably say that other people have the same and
(02:00):
this is god, this is going to sound so bad,
and I mean no disrespect, but such a volume of
data comes into you and I on a regular basis,
these cases that otherwise would just pound you in the
face like a sledgehammer because other stuff trumps that data
along the way. These cases are forgotten and day. No
(02:24):
Press Grove's case is the stuff of horror movies. I mean,
it is an absolute terror show.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
It is. It's every parent's worst nightmare for your young adult.
You know, it's one of those things when our kids
are young, before they start driving, we worry about them,
their friends, who they're playing with, who they're hanging out with.
Once they start driving, though, it becomes a different kind
of fear, a different kind of concern that you have
for your children when they're out. After they graduate school
(02:55):
from high school, there's another level. It's a different kind
of worry now because you know they're going to do
things that young adults. Do you mentioned partying? Look, I
did it. I encouraged my children when they became young
adults to be wise. I think with my kids is
I've already done it. You guys don't have to. I'll
(03:16):
tell you what. The end result of all of it is.
You end up in handcuffs and jail wondering where you know,
where is my shirt? And you know, well, you.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Know, Dave. The problem is is that most kids don't
believe us, and they're going to want their own empirical
proof of this. The speculation. You know, they see the speculation.
They don't see it because none of them ever imagine
us as young and partying. All right, So they have
to go out and you sit there and you're shaking
(03:45):
your heads like I wouldn't do that.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
If I was you.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
I've already told you. But you know, it's part of
the carelessness of youth. I think a lot of that.
There's growth that comes out of it. I think there's
also a lesson to be learned about what to do
and what not to do. Any toms when you experience that.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
In the noahpress Grove story, yeah, we actually have both
what to do and what not to do. And the
reason we're doing this is because there has been some movement.
You know, back in June, a lawsuit was filed by
the family of Noah press Grove. It was filed without
a lot of fanfare, mainly because you mentioned it right
at the beginning. We're hit with so many different stories.
(04:23):
Unless there's something that really moves that rock up the hill,
it's not going to gain the attraction it needs. But
after it was filed, you and I did an update,
and now we've got that, we actually have an update
to go along with that lawsuit. But before we do that, Joe,
you and I took a really good look at the injuries.
I actually, no, you took a really good look at them.
(04:44):
I was so shocked at what we found out when
this story came to us from one of y'all, a
listener of the show who actually reached out and said, hey,
have you guys covered this yet, And we're like, no,
let me find out more.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
And yeah, that's oh my goodness. I just remembered that
that did come to us this way. Yeah, I sure did.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
And the thing is it goes back to again, out
of one hundred stories that deserve coverage, to get it
and there is no rhyme or reason to it. There
really isn't. And this is one of those stories that
I think the shock value of the what this young
man had to have endured is not easily explained as
(05:26):
saying he was walking down the road and it was
a hit and run, because that's the explanation we've heard
of a possible way that he could have ended up
dead in this particular way. But Joe I looked at
this list of injuries, and there are certain things that
(05:46):
happened to Noah press Grove and his body that even
after looking down this list and reading reports and everything else,
I still cannot, for the life of me, think of
any way this could happen other then what appears to
me a gang beating, teaching somebody a lesson.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Yeah, and you know this list, Okay, let me, let
me let me kind of add a caveat here with
with motor vehicle, and that's what has been alleged, okay,
along that it was a motor vehicle related event, perhaps
(06:29):
struck by a vehicle. We know that they're in the
story woven through it. There is an ATV, an all
train all terrain vehicle that has been wrecked. Okay, But
I think the main thing that was put forward is
that you've got a young man that's found deceased adjacent
(06:50):
are on the roadway. Uh, and he has got a
laundry list of injuries that you would think might be
related to a motor vehicle accent day. But the problem
is is that the motor vehicle accident that he would
have been involved in to generate this kind of trauma
(07:13):
I think would have been he would be seated in
the cabin of a car and pushed off a three
story building and impacted nose dived into the and even that,
you're still not going to get some of this stuff.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Really, Yeah, I hadn't thought about it that way. I've
just tried to look at it from Okay, if you
were hit by a car, he knows certain things that happen. Yeah,
because it does happen. People do get hit by a car, oh.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Yeah, all the time.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Very rarely do you get hit and then rolled under
hitting and going under all four tires. Usually you bounce
off a little bit, you know.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Well you do, but we do. But there's a category
for what's referred to as rollover injuries. And you know,
the circumstances. Actually, dave have to be just right for
that to happen. First Off, many times with a okay,
let's just say we have a pedestri it's called pedestrian
versus vehicle. Let's just say we do have a pedestrian
(08:13):
and you've got a vehicle operator. There's so many things
that come into play. First off, the height of the vehicle,
the total wheelbase of the vehicle, how you know kind
of wide the vehicle is from tire to tire, the speed,
reaction time on the part of the driver. I guess
you could also factor in there an awareness or lack
(08:35):
of awareness on the part of maybe the victim. Many times,
if you have a braking event where you've got a
pedestrian that's in the roadway, you'll see a response on
the part of a driver that has awareness that when
they press on the brakes. First off, you've got deceleration,
(09:01):
but also the nose of the vehicle will slightly drop down. Okay,
and when that nose of the vehicle drops down, if
it strikes someone in the legs or in the thigh
the hip, it can deflect them. I've had these cases
where people go over the top of the car into
(09:24):
the windshield. Actually, Dave, I actually had a case one
time where a guy came through a windshield and was
decapitated and the head wound up in the seat of
the vehicle adjacent to the operator of the vehicle. And
the guy that this happened to that was I just
had this memory. This was actually on Ien down in
(09:47):
New Orleans. The guy that was driving the vehicle, he
was headed to the New Orleans Airport, and he was Cabby,
and he didn't speak very good, very good English. He came,
the guy came through his windshield, decapitated him, and the
guy's head, if I remember correctly, either wound up in
the Cabby's lap or in the seat adjacent to him
(10:07):
in the torso was still in the vehicle kind of
hanging off to the side when we got there. It
was absolutely horrific. But it's almost unpredictable as to what's
going to happen with a body when they're struck by
a vehicle. But with Noah's Noah's injuries, Dave there, I
(10:31):
was looking at the list. By the way, y'all, Dave
does this incredible job of backing me up, and I
truly need a lot of backing up the list, Dave,
I did not remember. I did not remember how extensive
and exhaustive this list of insults were to Noah's body
(10:54):
until they were represented to me again.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Oh, you had time, because we've actually had time now
that we heard a number of different stories, and some
of them have kind of washed whitewashed it a little bit,
you know, as to what may have happened to know
Ah Press Grove. But when you get right down to it,
this is what happened to his body. This is this
is when he was found. Okay, all of this was
done when he was found just before six am after
(11:23):
a weekend of partying with friends. All Right, he has
a conversation argument three point fifteen two hours later, two
and a half hours later. This is the condition of
his body. Joe found on the road about a mile
and a half, two miles from the house where they've
been partying.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Yeah, and this is I'm not saying that you can
see the end of the world from the locale, but
it's it's out. You got to pump in sunshine out here.
I mean, it's terrible. Oklahoma's case. Folks aren't aware of it.
It's not far away as crow flies actually from from
(12:07):
the Dallas area. And you know it's all relative in
Texas and Oklahoma because things are so big out there.
But it literally sits right on the Oklahoma Oklahoma Texas border,
and it's it's kind of north west of Dallas. And
let's face it, I mean it's a it's an agricultural area.
(12:30):
You know, you're going to have a lot of farmers
around there and that sort of thing. You're gonna have
a lot of a lot of wide open spaces for kids,
particularly you know, young teenagers, I mean older teenagers and
young adults that can rip and roaring out there and
they can have all the fun they want. But I've
got to tell you, when I dropped this list on
(12:51):
you guys, I don't know, but I predict, just like me,
you're gonna be shocked. They've these these injuries that that
(13:17):
no Press Grove sustained are not merely limited to his head. Uh.
We've got injuries that that range from literally the soles
(13:37):
of his feet to the top of his head. Let
that sink in just for a second, now, that's one
of the reasons I was previously talking about, and just
indulge me for just a second. But when people are
struck by a motor vehicle, let's just say pedestrian struck
by a motor vehicle and they're upright, we look for
things called bumper marks on the body, and that means
(14:00):
that's the point of impact, if you're struck in the
leg or the hip, and it generally most of the
time it's very definitive you'll see a contusion because obviously
when when they're alive, you're going to brewse right, and
then the body is pitched over to one side or
the body is rolled over and the vehicle run continues
on down the road. Dave, in a case like this,
(14:25):
and when we consider the extent the extent of the injuries,
I would not be as inclined to believe that this
is a standard rollover. I'm not saying he wasn't rolled over.
I guess the question I would have to ask is
how many damn times was he rolled over? All right,
it's not like a it's not like you're going to
(14:46):
get this in one fail swoop, because Dave, we've got
we've got ribs, we've got cervicle, vertebra, we've got skull,
we've got tissue being peeled away with his young men.
And if you'll indulge me, I'll I'll go ahead and
run this down if you know, and we can. I
(15:07):
just want everyone to kind of understand, you know what
we're what we're talking about, you know, when when his
remains were finally finally come across and here we go,
we've got so Noah had ten broken ribs, He's got
a fractured skull, next spine fractures, internal bleeding. So I
(15:35):
mentioned the damaged skull. He's got internally, he's got brain
brain hemorrhage. And Dave, there's something that's kind of kind
of interesting here. When they did the examination and they
kind of dissected out, you know, through his brain and
down his spinal cavity, they actually found air and inside
(15:58):
of these areas, which is something Well, it tells me
that these bones were fractured so extensively that they they
were open, they were open to the environment. Do you
reil us how hard it is to crack open? I mean,
skulls are hard to crack open. Do you realize how
(16:18):
difficult it is to crack open a cervical vertebra and
not just one? Hang on, let me refer back to
my notes, I feel like I'm a trial. Now We've
got C one, which is actually referred to as your
atlas if you'll, if you'll imagine the image of the Titan.
(16:39):
I think he was a Titan, the Greek Titan Atlas
holding up the earth on his shoulders. That's where the
term C one or the atlas vertebra comes from. It
drops down to C two, C three is apparently C three,
C four and C five are not damaged. But then
(17:01):
it jumps to C six and seven. So you've got
this this area in his neck which is the most
proximal to the base of the skull C one and
C two, and then you're going to jump over three
other vertebral bodies and landing on six, C six and
(17:22):
C seven, and those are all fractured. So that almost
maybe it maybe it doesn't, but that almost smacks of
two separate impacts, okay, just simply based on the cerebral
on the curfable vertebra. Rather. The other thing too, that
(17:46):
I remember now making note of is that the C
one not only is it fractured, David C one was displaced,
which means it's kind of if you think about the
spine if you're just if you were looking at a
skeleton running from north to south. Okay, in the vertical
plane at the very top. You know, the the reason
(18:10):
people go to go to chiropractice many times is because
the spinal alignment and all that sort of thing. Well,
there's a particular spinal alignment in the vertical plane and Dave,
the very top, the very top vertebra again atlas that
supports the skull is knocked over to one side. How
(18:30):
does that even happen?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Dave?
Speaker 1 (18:31):
We you know when when people see that, when it
has been seen and documented over the years. Judicial hangings,
Oh wow, yeah, judicial hangings where you get that kind
of displacement like that, and you get the fracturing, you know,
the old fracturing at the neck. By the way, we're
still going to do an episode on judicial hangings at
(18:52):
some point in time that I've talked about doing for
a long time.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
I've tried to look at these injuries and think, Okay,
how could any one of these happen? And realize that
when you start thinking about again geography, where was he found?
It was found just off of a road early morning
before six am. And we know that his clothes. By
(19:16):
the way, haven't mentioned this yet, Noah press Grove with
all these injuries, Joseph Scott Morgan was found naked. His
clothes were sitting by him folded. Now what you know,
what is he flying through the air. The clothes are
coming off before the next tire rolls back over his
head to peel some skin, and his shirt falls off
(19:40):
and it folds itself like a Genie in the night
pants to and then I guess when he's back up
in the air, he decides to brush his teeth. But oh,
they're all knocked out. We didn't get to that yet.
But let's get right to the rest of the injuries,
because again you're talking about pre six am side of
the road country rode code. He's got these injuries ten
(20:03):
broken ribs, serious gold neck and spine fractures, internal bleeding,
brain and organ damage, cuts and grazes all over his body.
And you pointed out he had about twenty mili liters
of blood pulled inside his head from a brain bleed.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
How much is that, Joe, oh, twenty MILLI leaders, let's
see if I could do the math on that very carefully.
It's more than should be there okay, all right, And
so there's an indwelling hemorrhage in there. So you've got
this impact that has affected these little vessels, which there
are many of within the brain. And we've talked about
(20:42):
this on bodybacks before, Dave that the brain and probably
secondarily to that. I know we'll probably get gigged on
this by one of our friends, but the brain and
the liver are two of the most vascular organs in
the body, probably the brain hands down, but liver is
very vascular as well. That's why if you have liver
(21:05):
damage traumatic, you know, you got to get you have
to get that repaired. You're going to bleed out into
your gut brain same way. But the problem is with
the brain is that not only are you experiencing this
extensive hemorrhage and this pressure that's building up inside of there.
It's not just the blood loss, it's also the pressure
(21:27):
within the cranial vault. It's kind of squeezing down on
the brain. That's why there has to be surgical intervention.
But David, I got to tell you, brother, I think
you could have had an entire staff of neurosurgeons standing
there adjacent to that roadway. He wouldn't have had two
hoots and hell's chance of surviving this because these injuries
(21:49):
are so over the top with this kid. And again,
I got to tell you, this smacks to me of
not just a single instant, you know, because of this
the extent of the injuries we've got. And just let
me just bear with me, because he's got he's got
(22:09):
road rash, which most of the time you're going to
get road rash injuries from you can be rolled over
and just imagine a barrel rolling down the road. That's
what happens with your body, all right, if you're caught
beneath the undercarriage of the car car rolls over you.
And there are very specific injuries you look for with
(22:31):
that that translate from the undercarriage of the car also
the tires of the car onto the body. And then
you've got the underlying road surface or if you have
been dragged by a car as well. So you have
to try to understand the orientation of these of this
road rash. Is it like linear, you know, like does
(22:54):
the road rash A way to interpret this, Okay, if
you're looking at a all over type of event, if
the body is log rolling down the road. That means
like rolling like a log underneath a car. You're going
to have these kind of parallel markings on the body.
You'll have them on the upper body and lower body, however,
(23:17):
and those will translate into road rash. If you have
someone who is dragged behind a car, they're going to
be very linear and they'll be insane. Plane. Let's just
say someone is being drugged by the bumper of a vehicle.
You might have these abrasions and dave, they're going to
(23:39):
look strided. Strided means like streaked, and they'll generally be
about as wide as your hand, all right, because it's
a point of contact, and you'll have multiple surfaces and
the body is being drug down the road, and they're
all gonna be linear and kind of parallel to one another.
So when you're thinking about orientation of the body to
(23:59):
the vehicle and to the road surface, what pattern were
these in Because we haven't necessarily heard that yet, you know,
we do know that road rash exists or what the
forensic pathologist is talking about. And by the way, the
State Medical Examiner's Office in Oklahoma, it's one of the
(24:22):
finest in the country. First Off, it's a state Medical
Examiner's office. It's a standalone, separate entity from any law
enforcement agency. It's not like governed by the state police
or anything. It's a standalone agency. And they're renowned. They're
renowned for their work and the quality of work that
they do. So I have no doubt he's got this abrasion, Dave.
(24:47):
That's on multiple surfaces. So he's got road rash on
his upper back. He's got abrasions and grazes on his
left shoulder, left arm, left side of the tors and
both of his butt. Okay, so he's kind of twisting
and turning. Again. We don't know if it's in necessarily
(25:09):
the horizontal plane or the vertical plane that these things
are running relative to the torso itself, and that's just
that's the external vision that you have. He's also got
healed abrasions that they found on and scabs on his nose,
both of his hands, his knuckles, left foot, and heel.
(25:34):
He's got an ulcerated healing or ulcer on his right thigh.
All of these, according to the Medical Examiner. These other injuries,
which is fascinating to me, pre date the night of
this event, Dave, and they referred to as healed abrasions
and scabs on his nose and David, you know what,
(25:55):
it's not just that they're on his on his nose,
they're on both hands as well, and the knuckles. Dave,
when I see abrasions, when I hear about abrasions on
hands and knuckles, you know what, I think, you know,
I think that there's physical altercation involved. But yet these
(26:17):
things are healing. I think the one thing to try
to understand is at what level of resolve are these injuries?
Is this something that because you could, I guess over
a thirty six hour period, you'll have enough of a change.
And I think that we can all relate to this.
I mean we all can. You and I both can.
If we scrape our hand. Let's say that right now,
(26:41):
you and I scraped our hand. Thirty six to forty
eight hours from now, that insult is going to look
completely different than it does right now. Yeah, you would
have a scab, you would have some a bit of
resolving that's going on with the injury. Certainly, you know,
if you had a contusion there, the contusion is not
(27:03):
going to be the same color as it was forty
eight hours earlier. Thirty six hours earlier, So I think
that within this timeframe, I mean, one of the questions
is what was going on, what had he been involved in?
We do know this that those injuries were still there.
They hadn't gone anywhere, so they're not like ancient ancient injuries.
(27:25):
I think that we can probably speculate on that a bit.
With with these injuries though, you're kind of over there's
an overlay of of the of the fresh injuries and
these old injuries. The problem is, like many times with
(27:48):
these with these issues, there's you know, sequencing that goes on.
What was kind of fascinating about all this. You've got
this this guy that does Stuart Fisher, who's an internist,
and he had given he's a physician, he's like an
internal uh internal medicine guy that has, according to the
(28:13):
Daily Mail, had worked you know, extensively an emergency you
know medicine. They asked him to review the report, and
the physician had actually stated that this this kid has
suffered so many catastrophic injuries, Dave, that any number of
(28:34):
these insults could have killed him just like a stand
alone UH. I think probably the most significant one that
the that the uh that the doctor you know, pointed
out was the extensive, uh, the extensive skull fraction. As
a matter of fact, their you know, their comments relative
(28:55):
to this, and this comes from the police investigators that
they described as head Dave is being caved in. Now,
how can you have a cave in? And that would
be what's referred to as a depressed skull fracture where
you have to have energy transfer from an object to
(29:15):
that underlying surface, the external table of the skull, so
that that direct energy is coming from I don't know.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
A tire.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Or a foot, or an object like a bat or
a pipe. And you know, going back to the physition,
he said, you know, Dave, there's five, maybe up to
ten life threatening injuries just in stand alone by itself.
(29:46):
And that's again you have to ask yourself this question
a reasonable question here? Could know Press Grove have sustained
all of the totality of these injuries simply by being
struck by a motor vehicle with a single strike. I
just I have a real hard time swallowing.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Joe, what about what about the clumps of hair? What
about the skin on the left side of his scalp
that was torn to the bone. I mean, I know
there are thinner parts of skin and things like that,
but when you start talking about skin being torn to
(30:30):
the bone, that's just animalistic behavior to me. It's something
that unless you're again now back to unless you are
hit by something mechanical, if another human being did this,
how enraged are you that you can cause hair to
be pulled out, ripping skin to the skull. A clump
(30:53):
of hair, A clump of hair was observed on his
right butt cheek without blood or tissue on it. Joe,
have you ever seen a car truck hit somebody and
I guess the truck fairy goes back and finds some
hair that's undamaged and laid it on the person like
as a wreath.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Yeah, yeah, it all depends. Well again we're back to
folded clothes, right right. How how do you get head
hair that is deposited on the buttock? Well, it's a
real dynamic situation. I'll give you that if it is
a rollover. But you know, when you couple that also
with what was that you had mentioned Off of the
(31:32):
aspect of the face, we had skin that was feeled back, David,
this is a phenomenon that's known as degloving. Wow, degloving. Yeah,
we do gloving for everything we do. Well you give
a yeah, you really do because in some things are
so and look, not all of it comes directly from
forensics because you have, you know, people in standard medical practice,
(31:57):
you know, deal with individuals that have their skin has
been degloved. You know, it does, it does happen. It's horrible,
it's horrible, and you know people wind up having skin
grafts and all those sorts of things. But yeah, degloving
for us, you know, it has a couple of connotations.
First off, you can have traumatic degloving and uh you
get degloving with skin in regards to decomposition, you know,
(32:22):
like the hands de glove we you know, and the
more will actually take the dermal level of the skin
and peel it off the hands of a off of
a decomposing body. Put a latex glove over your own
hand and insert your hand into the skin, the degloved
skin of the deceased, and we can roll fingerprints that way.
(32:45):
I've done that many times. It's kind of a creepy
thing to do. I know, uh, I know what you're
thinking right now, No kidding, just got.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Actually think if it doesn't fit, you must have quite well.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Yeah, yeah, and that's again that's an other problem because
skin is so stretched. But I'm digressing. We could do
an entire episode on things that we have to do
about decomposing bodies, like.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
From the hair and the skin.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
What about the teeth, Joe, Okay, The teeth are fascinating
to me because you've got this array of teeth that
are lying about on the roadway well in order. The
reason there is a term that people say they got
their teeth knocked out is because it's a big deal
(33:33):
day you're aize how hard it is to unroot a
tooth traumatically, and that's a single tooth, all right. I
think one of the big questions I have and is
was there was there any kind of maxillary which means
(33:55):
your maxilla is essentially the roof of your mouth. Just
give me a little rope here, but it's it's the
roof of the mouth. So your maxillary teeth, the upper
teeth are seated in there. Then you have the mangellary
teeth and those are indemandible, which is your jaw, all right,
and they're deeply rooted. You know. I think that most
people can identify with this, you know, what your teeth are,
(34:18):
Like you ever had tooth pulled. We're not just talking
about one or two teeth. We're talking about multiple teeth
that are scattered around on the surface of the roadway. Well,
most of time it's going to inquire. That's going to
require a very forceful impact. I want to know what
the underlying diagnosis were was for the bony structure supporting
the area. Was there extensive jaw fracturing or maxillary fracturing,
(34:39):
because we know that his skull was fractured. Say what
do they say earlier his skull was caved in, Well,
the upper skull if you're talking about say the right
or the left paridal area, which is that area that's
if you'll find your temple and kind of go above
into the rear. That's the parietal area, a sprietal bone
right there, and then you have occipital bones in the back.
(35:04):
They're kind of non specific about that. I'd like to
know what specifically what the teeth are, and I'm talking
about anatomical orientation. Uh, you know what what was left
where the teeth Okay, where the teeth actually knocked out
of his head or Dave, where the teeth actually fractured
(35:28):
and the root was still in place in the in
the in the socket of the of the teeth. Totally
two different things here. Okay, there's there's so much trauma
in in Noah's case, Dave, this this autopsy alone, just
let me kind of run this down to you. The
(35:49):
autopsy alone. When they got into this thing, I would
imagine it took them a couple of hours, and you
know what the line share of their time would have
been spent doing here, doing the external exam because there's
so much externally relative to his body. Before you ever
(36:12):
break out the cold steel, as we say, and open
his remains up, it would be a grand undertaking in
order to examine him and try to assess everything measured appropriately.
And I hadn't even talked about what had happened in
his chest cavity because we've got a closed head injury,
or I guess you could say it's kind of open
(36:35):
if they're talking about a depressed skull fracture. But Dave,
for Noah, both of his lungs were punctured, so that
means that puncturing of lungs comes about as a result
of fractured ribs. Will refer to it many times as
a flail chess where you've got multiple ribs on both
(36:57):
sides and you get what's referred to as like a
floating cast. A lot of blood associated with this. As
a matter of fact, I think that they recovered roughly
about three point two pints of blood. It's about fifteen
hundred millimeters of blood. He's got a contusion to his heart,
(37:24):
his spleen, and his stomach. So this kid has just
been obliterated, pounded, and it's not just external, it's what
has happened to him internally. There were at the scene.
(37:45):
The big thing about it is is that with all
of these injuries day, with the one thing that really
really catches your eye other than if you didn't need
anything else, Dave, there's no pools of blood. There's nools
of blood out there. And how do you generate all
of these injuries and you don't have like a large
(38:08):
puddling of blood that's immediately adjacent to the body or
the body is overlying it? Does? It just doesn't. It
doesn't make sense that. Look, I'm I'm not going to
(38:33):
sit here and say that, you know, Noah, some innocent
little lamb that was you know, uh, just brought in
that he hadn't been participating in partying and all this
sort of thing, But it still doesn't excuse the idea
of how much trauma he has had. I'll tell you
(38:54):
this for folks that are not aware. His blood alcohol
is zero point one four, and that's that exceeds the
legal limit, okay, for intoxication, but that means to operate
a vehicle. Now he's under age. He's underage drinking, So
at point one four, you will be slurring your words,
(39:19):
You're going to have your motor activity and response time
is going to be slowed down significantly. You know, legal drinking,
the legal limit for drinking or being drunk, according to
state law pretty much around the country, it's going to
vary is generally point zero eight. His is point one four.
(39:40):
So he's he's got you know, he's got a significant
amount of alcohol on board. It's not twice the amount
quite yet of legal limit, but it's it's up there.
So he would have been impaired. But again, you know
somebody that's impaired, Dave is is the easily pounced upon
(40:02):
by somebody.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Well, let me give you the other part of this
shoe that I really wanted to make sure we understand
because we've covered most we didn't even cover all of
his injuries. You have friends, just so you know what
you heard is a partial list. There's still more. But
when he was found in that state with all those injuries,
he was naked. He wore only mismatched shoes. One was
(40:25):
in n Adidas and the other was a Hey dude's.
There was debris and grass stuck in the laces of
each and more of them. On the left shoe, a
silver plated chain necklace from Noah's grandmother was scattered in
pieces not far away from a remnants of a tooth,
(40:47):
not a whole tooth, remnants of.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
A tooth, a fracture tooth.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Yes, his undamaged shores. We're seeing about thirty yards away. Jack,
this goes back several months ago. Was Noah's best friend
said that the shorts were actually borrowed. This goes back
to that rollover incident with the vehicle. Yeah, they were dirty,
(41:13):
They just grab clothes. You know, there were people spending
the night and staying they were grabbing that. That does
not surprise me nearly as much, you know as a
lot of the things that have happened, you know, the clothing.
What bothers me about the clothing is that he was
found naked with all those injuries, and his clothing was
not on him, near him torn. I mean it's you know,
(41:34):
does that make sense, Joe? That really bothers me that
he's left in a state of destruction and you're not
finding ripped clothes, torning clothes, bloody clothes.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Yeah. And I think this goes to an element. I
think in legal terms it's referred to as due care.
You know, we were Nancy recently and she was talking
about that public doesn't have an obligation necessarily to tend
to somebody that's not directly in you know, like if
(42:05):
you're a caregiver, if you're a parent, that sort of thing,
you do have a legal obligation you know, to take
care of you know, infirmed people and children and all
that sort of thing. But it would seem to me,
and there have been lawsuits that have been brought in
regards to this sort of thing when somebody comes to
a domicile and they're applied with alcohol and this is
(42:28):
I mean, bars have gotten sued over this. I know,
you know that day where people will get get hammered,
you know, at a local bar, and the the you know,
the bar didn't use due care and allowed the individual
to leave and they wind up either getting killed or
killing somebody, that sort of thing. So how do you
how do you allow someone to leave your domicile or
(42:52):
in your and you know that they're they're drunk, and
they're they're naked, and they're wearing mismatched shoes. It's such
a bizarre set of circumstances. And then finally, you know,
a little while later, he's found he's found dead a
distance from the house, out on the road, Dave.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
And with conflicting stories from those who are at the party. Yeah,
that's the biggest issue. You got friends from looik Man.
You guys all grow up together. Yes, you were having
a party. Settle that to the side, where kas we
got a dead guy? What happened? We can't get the
same story from everybody the minute somebody's lying, somebody's lying,
you know. And if you can't get if you've got
(43:35):
five people telling five different stories, they could all be
talking about from their perspective of what they saw, but
when you put it all together, they all make sense.
That isn't happening here. So that's what let him know
his family finally, after not getting anywhere with any you know,
by the way, I want to be very the police
have done the best job they can at this point.
(43:56):
They've involved others, you know, they've done their investigation. But
at a certain point in time, you know, you you
really have to know what happened, and they have yet
to figure that out. So no, and I.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Don't know, I don't know that they have enough enough
probable cause to move forward from a legal standpoint in
order to intensify the investigation. They have said that they're
not investigating this as a hom side. That was one.
But I got to tell you, just because you say
(44:29):
you're not, they leave them. I've been down this road before.
Just because they say they're not doesn't mean I'm doing
air quotes right here, doesn't mean that new information might develop. Yeah, okay,
and not stupid. No, they're not and they're not going
to show their hand. But they've just kind of this
(44:50):
is really your strong suit here, just kind of lay
out this lawsuit because it's well.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
They file a wrongful death lawsuit. They filed it and
they name names the family. This is the family of
Noah Press Grove. And by the way, when you file
a civil lawsuit, it's always monetary, right, But in this case,
they're not asking for enough money like they're they're asking
for seventy five thousand dollars.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Oh yeah, hey, I got it. I'm glad you said this,
because when I saw it, I was thinking, yeah, if
this was my kid, you know, there's going to be
a one at minimum with six digits after that. And
I saw seventy five. Boy, the smacks of just trying
to elicit information, and to me it does at least. Yeah,
(45:32):
I want to know. I got to tell you this
is the one thing about it. I know that that
this is putting the onus on Noah here attorney. As
we say, attorneys are going to attorney, that's what they do.
But the fact that the Press Groves filed this lawsuit, Dave,
I tell you what they're what we're staring down the
(45:55):
barrel of here. We're going to be getting some depositions
and they will be under a they will be so
ordered by the court and somebody is going to have
to go into a big, oak paneled office somewhere with
lots of fancy books in a room They're going to
sit at a big table and there's going to be
a court reporter sitting right there. There's gonna be a
(46:16):
microphone in front of them, and the plaintiff will ask questions,
and if they have an attorney, their attorney will try
to deflect or reframe the thing, and there will be
questions ask But the big question is will we actually
get any answers. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is
(46:42):
body Backs
Body dots. But Joseph's gotten more. There's no other feeling
in the world like being young and being with your friends.
And I'm talking about that group of friends that you
hang out with, that group of friends like you get
excited if you're going to see them, you're going to
(00:22):
spend a protracted period of time together. And look, I
got to confess partying, all right. And look, man, there's
nothing wrong with partying, particularly when you're young, because I
can tell you when you get old, you ain't gonna
do it. You're gonna be in bed by eight. But
there was a young man who did go and hang
(00:44):
out with friends to enjoy I don't know, a long
weekend over a labor day. He went into it, probably
full of excitement, enthusiastic about seeing his buddies, fasten a
bottle around, riding on atv out in the country where
(01:08):
the only illumination is starlight. The only problem is is
at the end of that weekend, after all the partying
had been done, he had wound up dead on the
side of a road with more trauma than anyone can
possibly imagine. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body bags.
(01:39):
Brother Dave we have got an update. We've got an
update today relatively to Yeah it is No Press Grove.
I didn't look. You know, it's one of these things
that kind of you know, we cover these cases and
I'd probably say that other people have the same and
(02:00):
this is god, this is going to sound so bad,
and I mean no disrespect, but such a volume of
data comes into you and I on a regular basis,
these cases that otherwise would just pound you in the
face like a sledgehammer because other stuff trumps that data
along the way. These cases are forgotten and day. No
(02:24):
Press Grove's case is the stuff of horror movies. I mean,
it is an absolute terror show.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
It is. It's every parent's worst nightmare for your young adult.
You know, it's one of those things when our kids
are young, before they start driving, we worry about them,
their friends, who they're playing with, who they're hanging out with.
Once they start driving, though, it becomes a different kind
of fear, a different kind of concern that you have
for your children when they're out. After they graduate school
(02:55):
from high school, there's another level. It's a different kind
of worry now because you know they're going to do
things that young adults. Do you mentioned partying? Look, I
did it. I encouraged my children when they became young
adults to be wise. I think with my kids is
I've already done it. You guys don't have to. I'll
(03:16):
tell you what. The end result of all of it is.
You end up in handcuffs and jail wondering where you know,
where is my shirt? And you know, well, you.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Know, Dave. The problem is is that most kids don't
believe us, and they're going to want their own empirical
proof of this. The speculation. You know, they see the speculation.
They don't see it because none of them ever imagine
us as young and partying. All right, So they have
to go out and you sit there and you're shaking
(03:45):
your heads like I wouldn't do that.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
If I was you.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
I've already told you. But you know, it's part of
the carelessness of youth. I think a lot of that.
There's growth that comes out of it. I think there's
also a lesson to be learned about what to do
and what not to do. Any toms when you experience that.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
In the noahpress Grove story, yeah, we actually have both
what to do and what not to do. And the
reason we're doing this is because there has been some movement.
You know, back in June, a lawsuit was filed by
the family of Noah press Grove. It was filed without
a lot of fanfare, mainly because you mentioned it right
at the beginning. We're hit with so many different stories.
(04:23):
Unless there's something that really moves that rock up the hill,
it's not going to gain the attraction it needs. But
after it was filed, you and I did an update,
and now we've got that, we actually have an update
to go along with that lawsuit. But before we do that, Joe,
you and I took a really good look at the injuries.
I actually, no, you took a really good look at them.
(04:44):
I was so shocked at what we found out when
this story came to us from one of y'all, a
listener of the show who actually reached out and said, hey,
have you guys covered this yet, And we're like, no,
let me find out more.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
And yeah, that's oh my goodness. I just remembered that
that did come to us this way. Yeah, I sure did.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
And the thing is it goes back to again, out
of one hundred stories that deserve coverage, to get it
and there is no rhyme or reason to it. There
really isn't. And this is one of those stories that
I think the shock value of the what this young
man had to have endured is not easily explained as
(05:26):
saying he was walking down the road and it was
a hit and run, because that's the explanation we've heard
of a possible way that he could have ended up
dead in this particular way. But Joe I looked at
this list of injuries, and there are certain things that
(05:46):
happened to Noah press Grove and his body that even
after looking down this list and reading reports and everything else,
I still cannot, for the life of me, think of
any way this could happen other then what appears to
me a gang beating, teaching somebody a lesson.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Yeah, and you know this list, Okay, let me, let
me let me kind of add a caveat here with
with motor vehicle, and that's what has been alleged, okay,
along that it was a motor vehicle related event, perhaps
(06:29):
struck by a vehicle. We know that they're in the
story woven through it. There is an ATV, an all
train all terrain vehicle that has been wrecked. Okay, But
I think the main thing that was put forward is
that you've got a young man that's found deceased adjacent
(06:50):
are on the roadway. Uh, and he has got a
laundry list of injuries that you would think might be
related to a motor vehicle accent day. But the problem
is is that the motor vehicle accident that he would
have been involved in to generate this kind of trauma
(07:13):
I think would have been he would be seated in
the cabin of a car and pushed off a three
story building and impacted nose dived into the and even that,
you're still not going to get some of this stuff.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Really, Yeah, I hadn't thought about it that way. I've
just tried to look at it from Okay, if you
were hit by a car, he knows certain things that happen. Yeah,
because it does happen. People do get hit by a car, oh.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Yeah, all the time.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Very rarely do you get hit and then rolled under
hitting and going under all four tires. Usually you bounce
off a little bit, you know.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Well you do, but we do. But there's a category
for what's referred to as rollover injuries. And you know,
the circumstances. Actually, dave have to be just right for
that to happen. First Off, many times with a okay,
let's just say we have a pedestri it's called pedestrian
versus vehicle. Let's just say we do have a pedestrian
(08:13):
and you've got a vehicle operator. There's so many things
that come into play. First off, the height of the vehicle,
the total wheelbase of the vehicle, how you know kind
of wide the vehicle is from tire to tire, the speed,
reaction time on the part of the driver. I guess
you could also factor in there an awareness or lack
(08:35):
of awareness on the part of maybe the victim. Many times,
if you have a braking event where you've got a
pedestrian that's in the roadway, you'll see a response on
the part of a driver that has awareness that when
they press on the brakes. First off, you've got deceleration,
(09:01):
but also the nose of the vehicle will slightly drop down. Okay,
and when that nose of the vehicle drops down, if
it strikes someone in the legs or in the thigh
the hip, it can deflect them. I've had these cases
where people go over the top of the car into
(09:24):
the windshield. Actually, Dave, I actually had a case one
time where a guy came through a windshield and was
decapitated and the head wound up in the seat of
the vehicle adjacent to the operator of the vehicle. And
the guy that this happened to that was I just
had this memory. This was actually on Ien down in
(09:47):
New Orleans. The guy that was driving the vehicle, he
was headed to the New Orleans Airport, and he was Cabby,
and he didn't speak very good, very good English. He came,
the guy came through his windshield, decapitated him, and the
guy's head, if I remember correctly, either wound up in
the Cabby's lap or in the seat adjacent to him
(10:07):
in the torso was still in the vehicle kind of
hanging off to the side when we got there. It
was absolutely horrific. But it's almost unpredictable as to what's
going to happen with a body when they're struck by
a vehicle. But with Noah's Noah's injuries, Dave there, I
(10:31):
was looking at the list. By the way, y'all, Dave
does this incredible job of backing me up, and I
truly need a lot of backing up the list, Dave,
I did not remember. I did not remember how extensive
and exhaustive this list of insults were to Noah's body
(10:54):
until they were represented to me again.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Oh, you had time, because we've actually had time now
that we heard a number of different stories, and some
of them have kind of washed whitewashed it a little bit,
you know, as to what may have happened to know
Ah Press Grove. But when you get right down to it,
this is what happened to his body. This is this
is when he was found. Okay, all of this was
done when he was found just before six am after
(11:23):
a weekend of partying with friends. All Right, he has
a conversation argument three point fifteen two hours later, two
and a half hours later. This is the condition of
his body. Joe found on the road about a mile
and a half, two miles from the house where they've
been partying.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Yeah, and this is I'm not saying that you can
see the end of the world from the locale, but
it's it's out. You got to pump in sunshine out here.
I mean, it's terrible. Oklahoma's case. Folks aren't aware of it.
It's not far away as crow flies actually from from
(12:07):
the Dallas area. And you know it's all relative in
Texas and Oklahoma because things are so big out there.
But it literally sits right on the Oklahoma Oklahoma Texas border,
and it's it's kind of north west of Dallas. And
let's face it, I mean it's a it's an agricultural area.
(12:30):
You know, you're going to have a lot of farmers
around there and that sort of thing. You're gonna have
a lot of a lot of wide open spaces for kids,
particularly you know, young teenagers, I mean older teenagers and
young adults that can rip and roaring out there and
they can have all the fun they want. But I've
got to tell you, when I dropped this list on
(12:51):
you guys, I don't know, but I predict, just like me,
you're gonna be shocked. They've these these injuries that that
(13:17):
no Press Grove sustained are not merely limited to his head. Uh.
We've got injuries that that range from literally the soles
(13:37):
of his feet to the top of his head. Let
that sink in just for a second, now, that's one
of the reasons I was previously talking about, and just
indulge me for just a second. But when people are
struck by a motor vehicle, let's just say pedestrian struck
by a motor vehicle and they're upright, we look for
things called bumper marks on the body, and that means
(14:00):
that's the point of impact, if you're struck in the
leg or the hip, and it generally most of the
time it's very definitive you'll see a contusion because obviously
when when they're alive, you're going to brewse right, and
then the body is pitched over to one side or
the body is rolled over and the vehicle run continues
on down the road. Dave, in a case like this,
(14:25):
and when we consider the extent the extent of the injuries,
I would not be as inclined to believe that this
is a standard rollover. I'm not saying he wasn't rolled over.
I guess the question I would have to ask is
how many damn times was he rolled over? All right,
it's not like a it's not like you're going to
(14:46):
get this in one fail swoop, because Dave, we've got
we've got ribs, we've got cervicle, vertebra, we've got skull,
we've got tissue being peeled away with his young men.
And if you'll indulge me, I'll I'll go ahead and
run this down if you know, and we can. I
(15:07):
just want everyone to kind of understand, you know what
we're what we're talking about, you know, when when his
remains were finally finally come across and here we go,
we've got so Noah had ten broken ribs, He's got
a fractured skull, next spine fractures, internal bleeding. So I
(15:35):
mentioned the damaged skull. He's got internally, he's got brain
brain hemorrhage. And Dave, there's something that's kind of kind
of interesting here. When they did the examination and they
kind of dissected out, you know, through his brain and
down his spinal cavity, they actually found air and inside
(15:58):
of these areas, which is something Well, it tells me
that these bones were fractured so extensively that they they
were open, they were open to the environment. Do you
reil us how hard it is to crack open? I mean,
skulls are hard to crack open. Do you realize how
(16:18):
difficult it is to crack open a cervical vertebra and
not just one? Hang on, let me refer back to
my notes, I feel like I'm a trial. Now We've
got C one, which is actually referred to as your
atlas if you'll, if you'll imagine the image of the Titan.
(16:39):
I think he was a Titan, the Greek Titan Atlas
holding up the earth on his shoulders. That's where the
term C one or the atlas vertebra comes from. It
drops down to C two, C three is apparently C three,
C four and C five are not damaged. But then
(17:01):
it jumps to C six and seven. So you've got
this this area in his neck which is the most
proximal to the base of the skull C one and
C two, and then you're going to jump over three
other vertebral bodies and landing on six, C six and
(17:22):
C seven, and those are all fractured. So that almost
maybe it maybe it doesn't, but that almost smacks of
two separate impacts, okay, just simply based on the cerebral
on the curfable vertebra. Rather. The other thing too, that
(17:46):
I remember now making note of is that the C
one not only is it fractured, David C one was displaced,
which means it's kind of if you think about the
spine if you're just if you were looking at a
skeleton running from north to south. Okay, in the vertical
plane at the very top. You know, the the reason
(18:10):
people go to go to chiropractice many times is because
the spinal alignment and all that sort of thing. Well,
there's a particular spinal alignment in the vertical plane and Dave,
the very top, the very top vertebra again atlas that
supports the skull is knocked over to one side. How
(18:30):
does that even happen?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Dave?
Speaker 1 (18:31):
We you know when when people see that, when it
has been seen and documented over the years. Judicial hangings,
Oh wow, yeah, judicial hangings where you get that kind
of displacement like that, and you get the fracturing, you know,
the old fracturing at the neck. By the way, we're
still going to do an episode on judicial hangings at
(18:52):
some point in time that I've talked about doing for
a long time.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
I've tried to look at these injuries and think, Okay,
how could any one of these happen? And realize that
when you start thinking about again geography, where was he found?
It was found just off of a road early morning
before six am. And we know that his clothes. By
(19:16):
the way, haven't mentioned this yet, Noah press Grove with
all these injuries, Joseph Scott Morgan was found naked. His
clothes were sitting by him folded. Now what you know,
what is he flying through the air. The clothes are
coming off before the next tire rolls back over his
head to peel some skin, and his shirt falls off
(19:40):
and it folds itself like a Genie in the night
pants to and then I guess when he's back up
in the air, he decides to brush his teeth. But oh,
they're all knocked out. We didn't get to that yet.
But let's get right to the rest of the injuries,
because again you're talking about pre six am side of
the road country rode code. He's got these injuries ten
(20:03):
broken ribs, serious gold neck and spine fractures, internal bleeding,
brain and organ damage, cuts and grazes all over his body.
And you pointed out he had about twenty mili liters
of blood pulled inside his head from a brain bleed.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
How much is that, Joe, oh, twenty MILLI leaders, let's
see if I could do the math on that very carefully.
It's more than should be there okay, all right, And
so there's an indwelling hemorrhage in there. So you've got
this impact that has affected these little vessels, which there
are many of within the brain. And we've talked about
(20:42):
this on bodybacks before, Dave that the brain and probably
secondarily to that. I know we'll probably get gigged on
this by one of our friends, but the brain and
the liver are two of the most vascular organs in
the body, probably the brain hands down, but liver is
very vascular as well. That's why if you have liver
(21:05):
damage traumatic, you know, you got to get you have
to get that repaired. You're going to bleed out into
your gut brain same way. But the problem is with
the brain is that not only are you experiencing this
extensive hemorrhage and this pressure that's building up inside of there.
It's not just the blood loss, it's also the pressure
(21:27):
within the cranial vault. It's kind of squeezing down on
the brain. That's why there has to be surgical intervention.
But David, I got to tell you, brother, I think
you could have had an entire staff of neurosurgeons standing
there adjacent to that roadway. He wouldn't have had two
hoots and hell's chance of surviving this because these injuries
(21:49):
are so over the top with this kid. And again,
I got to tell you, this smacks to me of
not just a single instant, you know, because of this
the extent of the injuries we've got. And just let
me just bear with me, because he's got he's got
(22:09):
road rash, which most of the time you're going to
get road rash injuries from you can be rolled over
and just imagine a barrel rolling down the road. That's
what happens with your body, all right, if you're caught
beneath the undercarriage of the car car rolls over you.
And there are very specific injuries you look for with
(22:31):
that that translate from the undercarriage of the car also
the tires of the car onto the body. And then
you've got the underlying road surface or if you have
been dragged by a car as well. So you have
to try to understand the orientation of these of this
road rash. Is it like linear, you know, like does
(22:54):
the road rash A way to interpret this, Okay, if
you're looking at a all over type of event, if
the body is log rolling down the road. That means
like rolling like a log underneath a car. You're going
to have these kind of parallel markings on the body.
You'll have them on the upper body and lower body, however,
(23:17):
and those will translate into road rash. If you have
someone who is dragged behind a car, they're going to
be very linear and they'll be insane. Plane. Let's just
say someone is being drugged by the bumper of a vehicle.
You might have these abrasions and dave, they're going to
(23:39):
look strided. Strided means like streaked, and they'll generally be
about as wide as your hand, all right, because it's
a point of contact, and you'll have multiple surfaces and
the body is being drug down the road, and they're
all gonna be linear and kind of parallel to one another.
So when you're thinking about orientation of the body to
(23:59):
the vehicle and to the road surface, what pattern were
these in Because we haven't necessarily heard that yet, you know,
we do know that road rash exists or what the
forensic pathologist is talking about. And by the way, the
State Medical Examiner's Office in Oklahoma, it's one of the
(24:22):
finest in the country. First Off, it's a state Medical
Examiner's office. It's a standalone, separate entity from any law
enforcement agency. It's not like governed by the state police
or anything. It's a standalone agency. And they're renowned. They're
renowned for their work and the quality of work that
they do. So I have no doubt he's got this abrasion, Dave.
(24:47):
That's on multiple surfaces. So he's got road rash on
his upper back. He's got abrasions and grazes on his
left shoulder, left arm, left side of the tors and
both of his butt. Okay, so he's kind of twisting
and turning. Again. We don't know if it's in necessarily
(25:09):
the horizontal plane or the vertical plane that these things
are running relative to the torso itself, and that's just
that's the external vision that you have. He's also got
healed abrasions that they found on and scabs on his nose,
both of his hands, his knuckles, left foot, and heel.
(25:34):
He's got an ulcerated healing or ulcer on his right thigh.
All of these, according to the Medical Examiner. These other injuries,
which is fascinating to me, pre date the night of
this event, Dave, and they referred to as healed abrasions
and scabs on his nose and David, you know what,
(25:55):
it's not just that they're on his on his nose,
they're on both hands as well, and the knuckles. Dave,
when I see abrasions, when I hear about abrasions on
hands and knuckles, you know what, I think, you know,
I think that there's physical altercation involved. But yet these
(26:17):
things are healing. I think the one thing to try
to understand is at what level of resolve are these injuries?
Is this something that because you could, I guess over
a thirty six hour period, you'll have enough of a change.
And I think that we can all relate to this.
I mean we all can. You and I both can.
If we scrape our hand. Let's say that right now,
(26:41):
you and I scraped our hand. Thirty six to forty
eight hours from now, that insult is going to look
completely different than it does right now. Yeah, you would
have a scab, you would have some a bit of
resolving that's going on with the injury. Certainly, you know,
if you had a contusion there, the contusion is not
(27:03):
going to be the same color as it was forty
eight hours earlier. Thirty six hours earlier, So I think
that within this timeframe, I mean, one of the questions
is what was going on, what had he been involved in?
We do know this that those injuries were still there.
They hadn't gone anywhere, so they're not like ancient ancient injuries.
(27:25):
I think that we can probably speculate on that a bit.
With with these injuries though, you're kind of over there's
an overlay of of the of the fresh injuries and
these old injuries. The problem is, like many times with
(27:48):
these with these issues, there's you know, sequencing that goes on.
What was kind of fascinating about all this. You've got
this this guy that does Stuart Fisher, who's an internist,
and he had given he's a physician, he's like an
internal uh internal medicine guy that has, according to the
(28:13):
Daily Mail, had worked you know, extensively an emergency you
know medicine. They asked him to review the report, and
the physician had actually stated that this this kid has
suffered so many catastrophic injuries, Dave, that any number of
(28:34):
these insults could have killed him just like a stand
alone UH. I think probably the most significant one that
the that the uh that the doctor you know, pointed
out was the extensive, uh, the extensive skull fraction. As
a matter of fact, their you know, their comments relative
(28:55):
to this, and this comes from the police investigators that
they described as head Dave is being caved in. Now,
how can you have a cave in? And that would
be what's referred to as a depressed skull fracture where
you have to have energy transfer from an object to
(29:15):
that underlying surface, the external table of the skull, so
that that direct energy is coming from I don't know.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
A tire.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Or a foot, or an object like a bat or
a pipe. And you know, going back to the physition,
he said, you know, Dave, there's five, maybe up to
ten life threatening injuries just in stand alone by itself.
(29:46):
And that's again you have to ask yourself this question
a reasonable question here? Could know Press Grove have sustained
all of the totality of these injuries simply by being
struck by a motor vehicle with a single strike. I
just I have a real hard time swallowing.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Joe, what about what about the clumps of hair? What
about the skin on the left side of his scalp
that was torn to the bone. I mean, I know
there are thinner parts of skin and things like that,
but when you start talking about skin being torn to
(30:30):
the bone, that's just animalistic behavior to me. It's something
that unless you're again now back to unless you are
hit by something mechanical, if another human being did this,
how enraged are you that you can cause hair to
be pulled out, ripping skin to the skull. A clump
(30:53):
of hair, A clump of hair was observed on his
right butt cheek without blood or tissue on it. Joe,
have you ever seen a car truck hit somebody and
I guess the truck fairy goes back and finds some
hair that's undamaged and laid it on the person like
as a wreath.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Yeah, yeah, it all depends. Well again we're back to
folded clothes, right right. How how do you get head
hair that is deposited on the buttock? Well, it's a
real dynamic situation. I'll give you that if it is
a rollover. But you know, when you couple that also
with what was that you had mentioned Off of the
(31:32):
aspect of the face, we had skin that was feeled back, David,
this is a phenomenon that's known as degloving. Wow, degloving. Yeah,
we do gloving for everything we do. Well you give
a yeah, you really do because in some things are
so and look, not all of it comes directly from
forensics because you have, you know, people in standard medical practice,
(31:57):
you know, deal with individuals that have their skin has
been degloved. You know, it does, it does happen. It's horrible,
it's horrible, and you know people wind up having skin
grafts and all those sorts of things. But yeah, degloving
for us, you know, it has a couple of connotations.
First off, you can have traumatic degloving and uh you
get degloving with skin in regards to decomposition, you know,
(32:22):
like the hands de glove we you know, and the
more will actually take the dermal level of the skin
and peel it off the hands of a off of
a decomposing body. Put a latex glove over your own
hand and insert your hand into the skin, the degloved
skin of the deceased, and we can roll fingerprints that way.
(32:45):
I've done that many times. It's kind of a creepy
thing to do. I know, uh, I know what you're
thinking right now, No kidding, just got.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Actually think if it doesn't fit, you must have quite well.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Yeah, yeah, and that's again that's an other problem because
skin is so stretched. But I'm digressing. We could do
an entire episode on things that we have to do
about decomposing bodies, like.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
From the hair and the skin.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
What about the teeth, Joe, Okay, The teeth are fascinating
to me because you've got this array of teeth that
are lying about on the roadway well in order. The
reason there is a term that people say they got
their teeth knocked out is because it's a big deal
(33:33):
day you're aize how hard it is to unroot a
tooth traumatically, and that's a single tooth, all right. I
think one of the big questions I have and is
was there was there any kind of maxillary which means
(33:55):
your maxilla is essentially the roof of your mouth. Just
give me a little rope here, but it's it's the
roof of the mouth. So your maxillary teeth, the upper
teeth are seated in there. Then you have the mangellary
teeth and those are indemandible, which is your jaw, all right,
and they're deeply rooted. You know. I think that most
people can identify with this, you know, what your teeth are,
(34:18):
Like you ever had tooth pulled. We're not just talking
about one or two teeth. We're talking about multiple teeth
that are scattered around on the surface of the roadway. Well,
most of time it's going to inquire. That's going to
require a very forceful impact. I want to know what
the underlying diagnosis were was for the bony structure supporting
the area. Was there extensive jaw fracturing or maxillary fracturing,
(34:39):
because we know that his skull was fractured. Say what
do they say earlier his skull was caved in, Well,
the upper skull if you're talking about say the right
or the left paridal area, which is that area that's
if you'll find your temple and kind of go above
into the rear. That's the parietal area, a sprietal bone
right there, and then you have occipital bones in the back.
(35:04):
They're kind of non specific about that. I'd like to
know what specifically what the teeth are, and I'm talking
about anatomical orientation. Uh, you know what what was left
where the teeth Okay, where the teeth actually knocked out
of his head or Dave, where the teeth actually fractured
(35:28):
and the root was still in place in the in
the in the socket of the of the teeth. Totally
two different things here. Okay, there's there's so much trauma
in in Noah's case, Dave, this this autopsy alone, just
let me kind of run this down to you. The
(35:49):
autopsy alone. When they got into this thing, I would
imagine it took them a couple of hours, and you
know what the line share of their time would have
been spent doing here, doing the external exam because there's
so much externally relative to his body. Before you ever
(36:12):
break out the cold steel, as we say, and open
his remains up, it would be a grand undertaking in
order to examine him and try to assess everything measured appropriately.
And I hadn't even talked about what had happened in
his chest cavity because we've got a closed head injury,
or I guess you could say it's kind of open
(36:35):
if they're talking about a depressed skull fracture. But Dave,
for Noah, both of his lungs were punctured, so that
means that puncturing of lungs comes about as a result
of fractured ribs. Will refer to it many times as
a flail chess where you've got multiple ribs on both
(36:57):
sides and you get what's referred to as like a
floating cast. A lot of blood associated with this. As
a matter of fact, I think that they recovered roughly
about three point two pints of blood. It's about fifteen
hundred millimeters of blood. He's got a contusion to his heart,
(37:24):
his spleen, and his stomach. So this kid has just
been obliterated, pounded, and it's not just external, it's what
has happened to him internally. There were at the scene.
(37:45):
The big thing about it is is that with all
of these injuries day, with the one thing that really
really catches your eye other than if you didn't need
anything else, Dave, there's no pools of blood. There's nools
of blood out there. And how do you generate all
of these injuries and you don't have like a large
(38:08):
puddling of blood that's immediately adjacent to the body or
the body is overlying it? Does? It just doesn't. It
doesn't make sense that. Look, I'm I'm not going to
(38:33):
sit here and say that, you know, Noah, some innocent
little lamb that was you know, uh, just brought in
that he hadn't been participating in partying and all this
sort of thing, But it still doesn't excuse the idea
of how much trauma he has had. I'll tell you
(38:54):
this for folks that are not aware. His blood alcohol
is zero point one four, and that's that exceeds the
legal limit, okay, for intoxication, but that means to operate
a vehicle. Now he's under age. He's underage drinking, So
at point one four, you will be slurring your words,
(39:19):
You're going to have your motor activity and response time
is going to be slowed down significantly. You know, legal drinking,
the legal limit for drinking or being drunk, according to
state law pretty much around the country, it's going to
vary is generally point zero eight. His is point one four.
(39:40):
So he's he's got you know, he's got a significant
amount of alcohol on board. It's not twice the amount
quite yet of legal limit, but it's it's up there.
So he would have been impaired. But again, you know
somebody that's impaired, Dave is is the easily pounced upon
(40:02):
by somebody.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Well, let me give you the other part of this
shoe that I really wanted to make sure we understand
because we've covered most we didn't even cover all of
his injuries. You have friends, just so you know what
you heard is a partial list. There's still more. But
when he was found in that state with all those injuries,
he was naked. He wore only mismatched shoes. One was
(40:25):
in n Adidas and the other was a Hey dude's.
There was debris and grass stuck in the laces of
each and more of them. On the left shoe, a
silver plated chain necklace from Noah's grandmother was scattered in
pieces not far away from a remnants of a tooth,
(40:47):
not a whole tooth, remnants of.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
A tooth, a fracture tooth.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Yes, his undamaged shores. We're seeing about thirty yards away. Jack,
this goes back several months ago. Was Noah's best friend
said that the shorts were actually borrowed. This goes back
to that rollover incident with the vehicle. Yeah, they were dirty,
(41:13):
They just grab clothes. You know, there were people spending
the night and staying they were grabbing that. That does
not surprise me nearly as much, you know as a
lot of the things that have happened, you know, the clothing.
What bothers me about the clothing is that he was
found naked with all those injuries, and his clothing was
not on him, near him torn. I mean it's you know,
(41:34):
does that make sense, Joe? That really bothers me that
he's left in a state of destruction and you're not
finding ripped clothes, torning clothes, bloody clothes.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Yeah. And I think this goes to an element. I
think in legal terms it's referred to as due care.
You know, we were Nancy recently and she was talking
about that public doesn't have an obligation necessarily to tend
to somebody that's not directly in you know, like if
(42:05):
you're a caregiver, if you're a parent, that sort of thing,
you do have a legal obligation you know, to take
care of you know, infirmed people and children and all
that sort of thing. But it would seem to me,
and there have been lawsuits that have been brought in
regards to this sort of thing when somebody comes to
a domicile and they're applied with alcohol and this is
(42:28):
I mean, bars have gotten sued over this. I know,
you know that day where people will get get hammered,
you know, at a local bar, and the the you know,
the bar didn't use due care and allowed the individual
to leave and they wind up either getting killed or
killing somebody, that sort of thing. So how do you
how do you allow someone to leave your domicile or
(42:52):
in your and you know that they're they're drunk, and
they're they're naked, and they're wearing mismatched shoes. It's such
a bizarre set of circumstances. And then finally, you know,
a little while later, he's found he's found dead a
distance from the house, out on the road, Dave.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
And with conflicting stories from those who are at the party. Yeah,
that's the biggest issue. You got friends from looik Man.
You guys all grow up together. Yes, you were having
a party. Settle that to the side, where kas we
got a dead guy? What happened? We can't get the
same story from everybody the minute somebody's lying, somebody's lying,
you know. And if you can't get if you've got
(43:35):
five people telling five different stories, they could all be
talking about from their perspective of what they saw, but
when you put it all together, they all make sense.
That isn't happening here. So that's what let him know
his family finally, after not getting anywhere with any you know,
by the way, I want to be very the police
have done the best job they can at this point.
(43:56):
They've involved others, you know, they've done their investigation. But
at a certain point in time, you know, you you
really have to know what happened, and they have yet
to figure that out. So no, and I.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Don't know, I don't know that they have enough enough
probable cause to move forward from a legal standpoint in
order to intensify the investigation. They have said that they're
not investigating this as a hom side. That was one.
But I got to tell you, just because you say
(44:29):
you're not, they leave them. I've been down this road before.
Just because they say they're not doesn't mean I'm doing
air quotes right here, doesn't mean that new information might develop. Yeah, okay,
and not stupid. No, they're not and they're not going
to show their hand. But they've just kind of this
(44:50):
is really your strong suit here, just kind of lay
out this lawsuit because it's well.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
They file a wrongful death lawsuit. They filed it and
they name names the family. This is the family of
Noah Press Grove. And by the way, when you file
a civil lawsuit, it's always monetary, right, But in this case,
they're not asking for enough money like they're they're asking
for seventy five thousand dollars.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Oh yeah, hey, I got it. I'm glad you said this,
because when I saw it, I was thinking, yeah, if
this was my kid, you know, there's going to be
a one at minimum with six digits after that. And
I saw seventy five. Boy, the smacks of just trying
to elicit information, and to me it does at least. Yeah,
(45:32):
I want to know. I got to tell you this
is the one thing about it. I know that that
this is putting the onus on Noah here attorney. As
we say, attorneys are going to attorney, that's what they do.
But the fact that the Press Groves filed this lawsuit, Dave,
I tell you what they're what we're staring down the
(45:55):
barrel of here. We're going to be getting some depositions
and they will be under a they will be so
ordered by the court and somebody is going to have
to go into a big, oak paneled office somewhere with
lots of fancy books in a room They're going to
sit at a big table and there's going to be
a court reporter sitting right there. There's gonna be a
(46:16):
microphone in front of them, and the plaintiff will ask questions,
and if they have an attorney, their attorney will try
to deflect or reframe the thing, and there will be
questions ask But the big question is will we actually
get any answers. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is
(46:42):
body Backs
Host
Joseph Scott Morgan
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