July 31, 2025 • 47 mins
Bryan Kohberger snuck in to kill young ladies while they slept. Maddie and Kaylee woke up and fought for their lives. Ethan Chapin was killed as he slept. But one, Xana Kernodle, was wide awake when the devil showed up.
After reading through documents released by the Moscow Police, Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack put together a timeline and a map of activity inside the house at 1122 King Road and what really took place. They also discuss the injuries and the effect those injuries had on the victims as well as breaking down the police reports with never before heard comments from survivors and the horror that was seen by police when they first arrived on scene.
Transcribe Highlights
00:00.00 Introduction
04:25.35 Xana came from tough upbinging
08:55.66 All four students did well in school
14:25.39 Coming face to face with Satan
19:57.23 BK surprised by Xana
25:02.33 Ghastly injury from Xana grabbing knife
30:18.04 Xana was fully awake and engaged during attack
34:59.06 Ethan found in the bed, significant trauma
40:00.96 Similar injury caused by Courtney Clenney
45:10.40 No justice for what BK did
47:06.63 Conclusion
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Quody Damas, but Joseph's gotten more. It's very difficult too,
and I can't even do it justice to summarize. I
hate that word. The end of life of four individuals.
(00:22):
And for our purposes on this episode, in the previous
episode of Bodybacks, we have split these episodes into So
today we're going to pick up where we left off,
and we're going to talk about Xanta Canodle and Ethan
Chapin and what they went through and their final moments
(00:49):
in this life. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Day.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
We really walked down quite the gruesome path in our
last episode of Bodybags, and you know, I got to
tell you, it's not for the faint of heart. None
of this is. I think that we've probably always known
that it was not going to be for the faint
of heart.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
I got to.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Tell you, I did not, even in my experience, Dave,
I did not anticipate the level of violence that we've
been discussing. A part of me thinks that I was
hoping that it wasn't going to be to this degree
(01:40):
because we've spent so much time going over this case
and discussing this case for all these years, and then
when this information finally drops.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
You realize the scope of.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Everything that these kids went through. And I think about
Kayley and the level of trauma that she endured.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
I got to tell you.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Zanna is equal to that. And I don't know, there's
there's really no equality here. Perhaps it's just it's just
how over the top these injuries are. And it says
a lot about the person that perpetrated, perpetrated these crimes
and again convicted of them.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
When we were talking about Beginzava's family yesterday, during a
lot of the recording and on al Fair, we've talked
about this case a lot.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
And the one thing that.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
You and I in covering stories for so many years,
you tend to see families of the victims. Some are
are just taking it back where they can't even speak
they're so emotional there, or the opposite, so shut down
that they can't speak. But in this one, from the
very beginning, from early on, the Gonzavaz family was very,
(03:11):
very harsh, not just their wording, but they were very upfront,
very in your face. And now we know why. I
think a lot of us assumed that they had a
lot more information than we did which they did, and
that's why they were given a wide berth, you know,
(03:33):
to say what they wanted to say. But Steve Gonzalvez
in particular did dial himself back a little bit. He
didn't volunteer everything they knew. But it was just I
now understand why he felt the way that he did.
And I will tell you my heart hurts for all
of the family members because no matter how they handle it,
(03:53):
it's better than me. That's all I keep thinking, Joe,
based on what you and I have found out over
the last few days of what happened with these young people.
Every family, whether they were quiet and reserved or loud
in holding meetings, they all did it better than me.
I don't think I would have emotionally, psychologically survived the
(04:16):
knowledge that these families have of what happened to their
loved one.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Yeah, that's the tough thing, and you know that. I
think that that kind of brings us to Xanna, and
in maybe kind of the securitest way, she I think she,
out of all of the all of the victims, we
knew not quite as much about her family background, and
(04:42):
she had to say that she had come from kind
of a tough tough raising, I think is maybe an understatement,
and not that not that there are degrees to tragedy,
because everything is tragic in its own way. Her death
is tragic in its own unique way because she is
(05:06):
literally one of these kids that's kind of pulled herself
up just through sheer will, that hardcore will. And you know,
I've had kids like her, you know, over the course
of my academic career, where they are determined that they're
going to do better, that they are gonna set their
(05:30):
faces like flint collectively and individually, and they are just
going to push on through no matter what. And she's
she I think Xanna epitomized that. And what was you know,
again kind of very poignant about this is I think
(05:50):
that with Ethan, and again I'm kind of superimposing what
I believe here. I think that with Ethan, she saw
like this great family, you know, that she could potentially
be a part of, and that stability. You know a
lot of kids that you know, come from homes that
don't necessarily have that kind of support, They longed for that,
(06:14):
they long for that for that stability.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
To give you an idea of who we are dealing
with in her family, Joe. Yeah, Ann Taylor, the attorney
for the murderer, actually represented Xana Karnodle's mother in a
drug related incident. She was actually the attorney of record
for Xanna Kernodle's mom, and when this case came along
(06:40):
and she saw the opportunity to get a lot of publicity,
she moved everything aside so that she could become appointed,
you know, to be the public defender for the cover case.
Sorry I used his name, but that's the reality here.
So Ann Taylor actually defended Xanakernodle's mother before she got
(07:05):
that out of the way and became the attorney for
the person who killed her client daughter. Think about that
for just a minute, and it also explains the kind
of background Xana grew up in. That's her mom not
knocking anyone, but her dad didn't do anybody any favors
by what he did during his statement, his impact statement,
(07:26):
because it was meandering and it was all about him.
Well he was gonna miss you know, and I get that.
Look I've said it before, Joe, I don't know how
I would have acted in that situation. I understand how
every I could have been any one of them, you know,
given the moment. But it's not something easy to speak
(07:47):
in front of an audience, a crowd that you've never met,
in front of a judge in a courtroom in a
foreign place and actually be articulate, you know, and makes
sense because your heart broken, you have been stomped on,
and I don't know how you get out of bed
in the morning.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
So that's off to all of them.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
But you're right to identify Xana as the victim of
this situation who had really done well. You know, we
mentioned before, Joe, these young people were students in college
and they were all good students. Yeah, everyone, that's such
(08:27):
a rare thing. It's just not the norm. You know
it as a professor and as a parent, we both
know it.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, and these kids were all I think Ethan was
still early in his career, but I have no doubt
that he would have completed. All of these kids were
tracking toward graduation. And you know, listen, so which will
that's the exception as opposed to the norm most people
that start college, if you look at them in total,
(09:00):
that's that's not that's not generally going to happen. Most
people will fall by the wayside. They might come back
and pick up college later. But all of these young
people who were tracking toward graduation, you know, one had
already moved out and was done with all of the
(09:20):
requirements and everything. So yeah, and finished early. So you
look at that and you think, Wow, what are the
odds that this group of young people would all come together?
Maybe that was one of the core elements that drew
them all together. And you know, and I can never
get past that image that was taken the day before,
the group image of all of these kids together. I
(09:43):
think that was actually taken at an adjacent property. I
was always under the impression that was taken there on property,
the outdoor shot of them that I had heard that
that was taken at an adjacent property. But yeah, with
Xana in particular, there's quite the quite she she's been
kind of a touchstone throughout this. We've got uh, Maddie
(10:10):
and Kaylee isolated. We talked about that extensively, and you know,
uh Kaylee in particular, trapped I think was the word
that her daddy used, Trapped in that bed and in
that room. But Xana was of course free in this.
(10:31):
She she moved about. We don't really know what it
was that drew her attention, Dave. But her story in
and of itself, kind of her her little life, you know,
kind of weaves itself all the way through everything from
her being up active on her phone, the food order,
(10:52):
collecting the food, you know, and then what what did
she hear that drew her attention up this adjacent stair
stair will And you know, I don't know that that
mystery will ever be completely solved. I don't know that
that's possible, but I think that we we kind of
have an idea. Would you agree with that statement, man.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Well, yeah, we have based on what we now know
from the police interviews. Early on, we know that Dylan
Dylan said Dylan Mortenson that she heard Kaylee scream somebody
is in the house.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Now we know that Dylan heard what it sounded to
her as a scuffle that she thought might be Kaylee
playing with her doge, but then she heard a loud
thud and then muffles, muffled noises, I guess the better
(11:58):
way to put that. But based on what Dylan told
police and the hours after this happened, recounting what it
appears to be, and based on what Bill Thompson, the
prosecutor said, Xana heard what was going on as well.
(12:18):
She was awake, Ethan was crashed out. They came in,
Ethan crashed. They've been in a couple hours. Xana was up,
she was on her phone, she placed the order from
Jack in the box, it was delivered, and she's got
her food. So she's awake hearing something going on that
is not normal for her to hear. And after, you know,
(12:40):
Dylan heard the scream somebody's in the house, Xana probably went,
who's in the house, what the heck? And so she
went to go look whereas Dylan Mortenson. Bethony Fulks said
they stayed put Dylan in particular said she was mortified
and scared and stayed in her room. She put her
head out three different times. But Zan and it appears
(13:02):
might have actually gone up the stairs to the third
floor to find out what was going on. And based
on timing sounds, yep, it appears that she came in
contact with a killer on those stairs.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yeah, and then and then the chase was on at
this point in time, because when you when you think
of okay, let's just look at it this way. And
I think everybody that is listening to us right now
can identify with the idea of hearing a sound in
our home at night. I can't tell you how many
(13:42):
times that's happened and you get up out of bed
and you go inspect it, or you know, uh with
with Kim laying right next to me, who is a
light sleeper, I get the elbow. Did you hear that?
You know? And then you you arise, I'm not going
(14:02):
to get my wife to go. You arise, and you know,
And so anytime I arise out of the bed, I'm
going to be accompanied by my little friend who shall
go unmentioned, that I keep with me at all times
to inspect the area. She didn't have that advantage. And
(14:23):
when you go to inspect your house, you don't. You
don't really. I think your hair standing up, maybe on
the back of your neck. I think that that's, you know,
the promal response, you know, you that kind of tingling
feeling that you get and then you confirm. Most people
confirm that it was nothing okay. However, there are those
(14:43):
moments in time where you come face to face with satan,
which in Xana's case, I think that that's what happened.
I agree. She goes and here's the other thing. If
she hears whimpering or hears kind of a fold sound.
Let's reflect back to what we talked about in the
(15:06):
previous episode, where you've got life leaving the bodies of
these two young women, if they're not deceased at that
point time, if there's any kind of sound I talked
about yesterday about expiating blood, you would have coughing, you
may have someone that if they're capable of those last
(15:28):
few moments with a death rattle, or they're experiencing pain,
their moaning or something like this, there's still that remnant
that's there. Maybe it caught her ear at that point time,
and as she ascends this staircase, he's now descending the staircase,
(15:48):
removing himself from this environment. Which here's the thing I'm
wondering in the perpetrator's mind here, if this individual ual has,
if he's capable of this, if he's having this indwelling fear,
kind of fight flight kind of thing that's going on
(16:09):
after he's kind of loosed himself in this frenzy that
he has, whatever the motivation is, hatred, anger, sex, maybe
a combination of all three. He thinks he's free and
clear he didn't expect to find two people. He found one.
I mean, he expected maybe to find one, found two.
Who knows. And he's already heightened, he's already spent. And
(16:32):
then all of a sudden, you get this other burst
of adrenaline on his part. You're confronting somebody on these
darkened stairs. You know that they're in front of you.
You know what you've just done upstairs. You've got to
put as much distance between those people up there and
the people that person that's standing before you at this time. Well,
(16:52):
it's at that moment, Tom, that the attack begins, or
at least the pursuit begins. We know that Xanna is
found on the floor of her bedroom. He's chased her
in here and has assaulted her Dave, and again we're
faced with the proposition of this wounding that has taken place,
(17:14):
these injuries, which again are almost too unimaginable for any
of us to comprehend. I don't know that anyone can
(17:42):
appreciate the fear. When I was little, I used to
have this reoccurring dream that I was being chased and
that everything around me was on fire, and that there
were these fire people chasing me. Now, I don't know
how you dissect that dream. I don't know what goes
(18:03):
into it. I'm sure that there's some deep seated pathology there.
It wouldn't surprise me on my part. But and it
was a dream that I had into my twenties. It
was like a reoccurring dream for a moment. Xanna had
something like that. But Dave, she had an I think
that she had an awareness because obviously she's awake. This
(18:26):
is no dream. It's like that that line from Rosemary's
Baby where Mia Ferriss says, this isn't a dream. This
is really happening. For those of you that are not
familiar with that book or that movie, horrible, horrible story.
But that's it's something that you cannot necessarily wrap your
(18:47):
brain around. And for those moments that would have been
in her last moments, that would have she's trying to
flee from this individual and get away after he has
kind of entered into her room.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Dave, all hell breaks loose. It is directed at her.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Sergeant Shane Gunderson actually wrote in his report about what
took place in the room. In Xama's room, he actually
noted that they could tell a fierce struggle took place
in that room, and so if you're the way, I'm
thinking this took place between Kayleie screaming somebody's in the house,
(19:35):
Xanna goes upstairs to see what's going on. Her boyfriend
is in her bed, crashed out. I'm guessing Coburger the
killer meets her on the stairs getting I'm picturing her
timidly listening to see what's going on, and he comes
(19:57):
out and sees her, and she takes off to try
to get to her room, and he's in a like
you mentioned, probably was not expecting anything to stop him.
Everybody's going to be asleep. I'm going to get in
there and get out, and I'm gonna leave this mayhem.
I'm going to leave horror behind. But instead he ends
up having to into a real fight with Maddie and Kaylee.
(20:19):
And he comes down the stairs and he sees Xana
and she's taken off trying to get back to the
safety of a room, thinking I can shut the door
and lock it and start screaming.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
She never makes it. He gets her.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
And I would like to know more about what took
place in that hallway, because we know that she didn't
make it all the way into her room. We know
that where her body was, you know, was yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
And I would love to.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Talk to like an endochronologist sometime to try to understand
this idea of adrenaline dumps, where you know you've got
an individual that is like they are in this case,
this monster has perpetrated this crime. That's one adrenaline dump
that you have going on in that moment, and then
all of a sudden, maybe it begins, you have this
(21:05):
conscious awareness that you need to leave. Then all of
a sudden you get another dump when you come face
to face with an eyewitness. At that point in tom
you track her down into the room. And Dave, you
remember what I was saying yesterday about Kayley. We had
(21:32):
one report for the police that came out that said
that she had twenty sharp force injuries. Mister Gonzalez said
that it was upwards of thirty. Okay, Dave, I got
to tell you. I know that we're not necessarily comparing numbers,
(21:54):
but please tell me the number with Xanna. I mean
that we're looking at right now, fifty background.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Fifty mostly defensive wounds. Now, the way it has been pitched,
not pitched, the way it has been written down by police.
Was that a massive struggle took place, A fight is
breaking out, and yet Dana Krenodle did not go without
putting up a fight. She fought long and hard and
(22:25):
I don't know, again, a minute probably feels like an
hour when you're in this kind of a battle for
your life. She was in a life and death struggle
with the devil. Fifty stab wounds, arms, defensive wounds. One
of them was described as grabbing the knife. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
(22:46):
I can't imagine, Joe. I you know, we see this
in movies and things like that, where somebody in desperation
grabs the knife, but she has that wound on her
hand and she grabs a blade.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Did you know that that? I don't know if you
remember that we've been doing this for so long now,
did you know that for me at least, we had
been hearing sharp force injury, stab wounds, that sort of thing,
but it was very generalized and broad. Okay, do you
recall that that descriptor of Xana was actually the first
(23:22):
bit of specific injury data that was leaked out? And
the reason I remember it is that whoever originally released
that information and I can't recall who it was they
referred to tendons at that point in time, the tendons
in the hand, and it would it doesn't surprise me
(23:45):
at all because grabbing this blade and having the blade
actually drawn through the hand forcefully is not surprising. We
go back to we go back to Kayley that had
these blocking injuries. You know, I talked about these. I
use the term parry, which is a term that's used
(24:07):
in ni fighting and sword fighting. It's a defensive move
where you raise your arm. It would seem to me
that some of these injuries would have been similar in
that sense. But when you're talking about fifty and this
number is being utilized or used rather to describe her injuries,
(24:28):
they're going to come in multiple presentations on her body. Obviously,
you have to have you have to have specific injuries
that are going to end her life. But let's just
think about these defensive injuries just for a second. They
(24:48):
were very specific on her left hand, and I would
not that your hand dependency really comes into play so
much circumstance like this when you're fighting for your life.
I'd really like to know if Xanna was left handed
or right handed, because one of these really ghastly injuries
(25:10):
that she sustained, notes that it was between the left
index finger and her thumb. So if you imagine, imagine
just grasping something anything a soda can, a pin, or
whatever it is you want to pretend with you grasp
(25:32):
this and that kind of webbing, the webbing that we
have that extends through between your index finger and your thumb,
that would have been sliced all the way through. And
I would imagine that there are probably going to be
several that are similar to that over the surfaces of
(25:53):
her body, because when you think about fifty Dave, there's
only so many places that you can go, and she's
a tiny she's a tiny young lady. You can look
at her images and tell this. She doesn't have a
lot of surface areas, so she's going to have them
anatomically oriented in multiple locations. I think at least she's
(26:17):
also been and I think that this is indicative of
trying to get her to submit.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Again.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
This goes to how violent this attack was. She's got
multiple blunt force trauma as well. You know, just think
about if you've ever seen a fight where you've got
an individualist trying to get someone under control and they
begin to punch them. The punching, I think comes about
(26:46):
to kind of disorient them so you can accomplish the task.
In this case, the task was to end her life.
There was no way she was going to get out
of these circumstances, Dave, at all. So you're going to
have this individual, this perpetrator, this lizard, striking her multiple times.
(27:08):
I also believe that he is probably holding the knife
as he's doing this, and the knife is being used
as a bludgeon. I submit to you that probably the
end of the knife, and I'm not talking about the
business end with the tip of the blade. I'm talking
about the handle, is being used to hammer away. I
was talking some folks just last night, Dave, about the
(27:33):
utility of the k bar knife. Okay, and did you
know that with the k bar it's such a robust
weapon that when the Marine Corps created it, it has
multiple utility. This blade is so robust and resilient that
you can actually open crates of AMMO with it. So,
(27:56):
just thinking the South Pacific, you've got these little wooden
crates that comes in or chow comes in, food, whatever
it is. You can take this blade and stick it
between the lid and the rest of the framework of
these wooden crates and pop the thing open. Also, you
can flip the knife around and the rounded butt of
the handle can be used as a hammer dave, so
(28:17):
you're striking down And if you if you look, if
you look at the end of a k bar knife
on the on the handle portion of it, it actually
looks like the head of a hammer. And so it
would not surprise me if the knife had been utilized
this way during these attacks. This is where you're getting
(28:39):
these grotesque blunt force trauma from that are that these
victims are being subjected to know.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
The one thing that I was trying to gather in
my thoughts because I'm a visual person.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
You know, I can and.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
I'm picturing, which is why it bothered me. They tore
the house down, and yeah, because I wanted to know.
I wanted to be able to count the steps. I
wanted to know where did Xana actually come in contact
with her killer and was she hoping beyond all hope
that Ethan would wake up. You know that she's getting
(29:14):
to the room because the fact that she was found
in the middle of the room on the floor.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
She's not on the.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Bed, She's not pushed against. So she stood there and
fought her killer right there. You know she you mentioned
she was a slight woman. Coburger. You know, he's six
foot tall. I mean he's going to out he's going
to be stronger than her. And you would have thought
he would have been able to push her against a
wall to you know, in the effort of killing. But
(29:41):
she fought in the middle of that room where she died.
And what we do know from those defensive wounds is
that she didn't go quickly, she didn't go quietly, and
we know that Dylan Mortenson said that she heard a
(30:03):
male voice she didn't recognize, basically saying I'm here to help, right,
I got you, don't worry, you know, calming her down
so that she didn't speak. I guess. And what we
know of Xanna from that moment, she was the only
one that truly was awake and engaged as this took place.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Yeah, fully fully engaged brother all the way all the
way through, you know. I The one thing about is
this is that these these kids were brutalized in such
a way that and I find this quite remarkable. I'd
(30:46):
love to know what you think about this. With Kaylee
and Maddie. They both sustained injuries to their chest, to
the organs of the chest. Okay, so the lung lungs
in particular with them, the left long. With Xanna, she
actually sustained a laceration to her right lung as well
(31:13):
as two lacerations to her heart. Okay, Again, this individual
is in a dominant position over them. And here's here's
the Here's the real thing, man, here's the real thing.
They would have been literally face to face with him,
(31:38):
face to face. This guy, even through that that darkness,
that desperate darkness in there, he he is the only
thing they see. Let let that settled down into everyone's
(32:03):
groundwater just for a second. The last thing that your
eyes behold before you before you step off into eternity.
Is this reptile? A big mystery I think in everything
(32:36):
with this case is is Ethan? What happened to Ethan?
We've heard quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Let me tell you.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Let me just throw some things out to you that
came across my desk. This doesn't mean they're valid, okay.
And you never know, And this just goes to show
you never know what's floating about out there. And these
conclusions that people draw. Did you know at one point
in tom there was a story that was floating about
(33:11):
that talked about how Ethan see how do you go?
Ethan was found on the floor of the bedroom and
his throat had been cut as if out of a
slasher movie where the blade was, you know, drawn across
the neck, those sorts of things, and he essentially fell
(33:32):
right there. Well, I got to tell you, Dave, everything
that we've heard, the information that we do have about
Ethan doesn't validate that in any way, you know, when
you begin to think about the position that he was
found in. And what we do know is that he
(33:54):
was in the bed, all right. He was in Xana's bed.
This is her room. He was spending the night there,
and that's really all we know. And we haven't had
a lot of comment from his family because the family
was not there to deliver a victim impact statement. And look,
(34:16):
they made that choice. They felt like that, and I think,
and I'm getting this accurate, that they felt as though
they wanted to honor him by going out on their
boat that day. And it brings me back to an
image that I saw that has been thrown around quite
(34:36):
a bit. And you can see this image of it's
a sweet, sweet picture, and it's a picture of Ethan
and Zenna on a boat together. And you you know,
as you well know, I love my boat and I
spend as much possible time as as I can on
that boat with my bride, and it's it is our
(34:58):
happy place. And I hope that the they were happy
for at that moment time, as sad as that day was.
But we haven't had them making statements specifically about Ethan's injuries.
But what we do know is that he's obviously found
in the bed. He sustained pretty significant trauma relative to
(35:21):
this individual who has now confessed killing him, Dave, and
has now been convicted and is now thrown into a
deep dark hole. But we do finally have a mystery
solved here, and this just came to mind, Dave. It
has been confirmed that that image that was foisted upon
(35:46):
us for so long, of the quote unquote blood dripping
out of the house.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Which I thought was fake by the way, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Yeah, you told me that. And let me tell you something.
I defy anybody to go back and find any statement
or written statement, or vocalized statement, image anything of me
saying that that's blood. I never said that, and I
never have and the reason I didn't is because I
know better than to do that. No person involved in
(36:18):
forensics what their salt, would call that blood's there's a
whole most people are not aware. We might see things
at a scene, okay, and it might look like blood
to us, but we will not say that it is
in fact blood. We can't even comment, like in an
(36:39):
official report, that that this looks like blood. You can
say maybe a blood like substance until you can actually
scientifically confirm it. And can I run down this list
for you real quick? I won't belabor the point. But
first off, we have to identify and this is the
(37:02):
way this works. We have to identify that this substance
is blood, and if blood, we have to identify if
it's animal blood or human blood. Then the next step
is to confirm if it is human blood. And this
(37:23):
is what it used to work. What blood type is it?
You know, so you've got your ABO groupings. Then from
there you can pull information from that sample and get
a DNA profile on it. And we have come to
find out now that they have identified and this is
per the police, that that blood that seeped down that
(37:45):
foundational wall. It looks like center block to me, that
exterior wall that they keep showing over and over again
that it was blood and that this blood actually belonged
to Ethan dave Ye.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
I was shocked to hear that that was the truth.
And the reason is it didn't seem likely. It seemed
like something that would have happened as a gag on Halloween.
And the one thing I have learned in doing things
with you over the years, you don't even mention if
something looks like a bullet wound. You know, somebody is
(38:18):
shot and you see where the hole is for the
but you don't call it a bullet wound. You call
it something other than that defect. Yeah, I'm like, well,
and the same thing is true here seeing that picture
of blood, I thought it was going to be something else,
but it really was Ethan's blood. And now that we
know that Ethan was in the bed asleep, they'd been
(38:39):
at a frat party earlier, got home Tewish He's crashed,
sound asleep when Xanna orders the food from Jack in
the Box, and with everything going on, with Xanna hearing
the upstairs at activity, hearing his scream, even sleeping through
(39:01):
all of that apparently.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
But his injuries actually.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Kind of make me understand why there was blood coming
out the side of that on the outside wall, because
we've got now I don't know exactly how many times
he was stabbed, but I know it was at least once,
because that was the original thing, was that he was
stabbed and it got his jugular vein, and that was it.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
Now well looked.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Yeah, let me back up here just for a seconds.
You did get a shugglar vein, but it's also gotten
it also clipped his subclave vein, which is different than
the juggler, and it also got his subclavicular artery as well.
(39:52):
And thank you, by the way, you sent me a
text last night. Yeah, he sent me a text last night.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
Clinny. It is the case that we Weretney Clinny.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Yeah, Courtney Clinny that threw the knife that killed that
young man. She claimed that she threw the knife, which
you know, if you're selling it, ain't buying it.
Speaker 3 (40:11):
And that's why.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
And Joe, just so that we're clear here, when we
did the you know, fan the model thing, you know
only fans about Courtney Clinny and her claim that you know,
she just threw the steak knife and it just happened
to hit him right there. I had no idea that
that was a dangerous spot to hit somebody. It seemed
like an actually a pretty innocuous spot. But when you
(40:34):
actually were breaking that down, when I saw this where
I mentioned subclavian vein, subclavian artery, and jugular vein, my
first thought is, Okay, we're all going to know jugular vane.
We've all heard that, these other ones I don't know.
So is this something could be done with one knife wound?
Could one knife wound get all of this?
Speaker 1 (40:55):
I suppose that it could. And they're very non specific
and they're listing up, yeah, these injuries because you're going
to have this complex of vessels that run through this area,
And yeah, could you get subclave artery, the subclave vein,
(41:16):
and the jiggler vein all in one stab wound. I
think that you probably could. I think that would probably
be improbable. They're kind of bundled altogether. We don't know
if it's multiple stab wound because they're not really talking
about that at this point, and I anticipate here's something
else that I'm kind of very interested in. It's going
(41:38):
to be the blood pattern deposition on this. And here's why,
because if ethan, if we believe what they're saying that
he was awake and that he never moved from that position,
he was killed where he lay. If they clipped an
(42:00):
artery there to a vein to a lesser degree, particularly
particularly that subclave artery day, you're going to have a
tremendous amount of force coming through there. That and you've
heard this term of arterial spray, where the spray of
(42:22):
the blood as it's pouring out, it comes out with
such force you'll get this almost histamin like deposition on
surrounding surfaces. Here's another thing. I have to think that
he did lay in one position for a protracted period
(42:44):
of time as he bled out, because you're getting enough
blood here that it would have to seep. And again
this is based upon what they're saying, seep off of
the edge of the bed or through the bed, then
adjacent to the wall, go past the flooring, the sub flooring,
(43:05):
and then wind up presenting itself on the exterior of
the house. Dave, just let that sink in.
Speaker 3 (43:12):
A lot of that.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
The just that external view that you have of the
blood you know, that's on that foundational those foundational blocks
is kind of interesting to me because it's through that
if you if you go back and you think, okay,
he laid in one spot, that gives you an idea
(43:35):
as to where that bed is positioned in that room
that this would have poured through or poured adjacent to,
which is a big reveal here. I think they're not
saying anything about defensive wounds. And here's another thing that
they don't say anything about that we've heard this so
(43:58):
called carving on the leg and I don't know where
that initially came from. Maybe it does exist, it has,
it wasn't stated in this document dumped to this point.
I'd be fascinated as to know what that the origin
of that source information was.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
I think about the will to live, and I think
about his smugness to not even really show any kind
of emotion or anything else.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
It's like.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
Kind of like Ali Gonzalvez, one of her relatives. I
think it was their little sister that passed along an
idea that you might have gotten big a's in school, Yeah,
going to get big d's in prison.
Speaker 3 (44:43):
There you go, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
You know, there is no there is no justice for
what he did, you know, I think that's but I
look at these wounds and I think about my own daughters.
Speaker 3 (44:53):
That's I can't get that out of my head. I
think what he did to them.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
I don't think any of us can, Dave. I don't
think the nation can. Because you know now we at
least we've had a peek, if you will, behind the
curtain as to the devastation that took place on that
November night in twenty twenty two, those years ago. Now
(45:19):
you know, we're in twenty twenty five. Now it will
almost be three years. Just as such as it is
has been some time coming. It has arrived. I don't
know to what degree of satisfaction, and it doesn't really
matter what I think about it. What I hope for, though,
(45:44):
at the end of all of this, is that we
take the lessons that can be learned from these horrific
circumstances and apply them so that it doesn't happen again.
And those lessons come in all forms. That come in
all forms, everything from personal security to the individuals we
(46:08):
are surrounded by, and I think to those people that
support us, we need to embrace those people. We need
to love those people that are in our lives for
those moments of fleeting moments that we have in life.
Life is in fact, very very short, folks. Most people
(46:28):
don't understand that, and when you are in the bloom
of youth, it seems as though that it will go
on forever and ever. But for these four lives that
have been lost now, we can't say too much more
other than they're gone, and hopefully along the way their
(46:52):
absence will be replaced by some measure of peace in
the hearts and minds of their family.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Guys.
Speaker 3 (47:03):
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.
Speaker 2 (47:09):
M mm hmm.
Quody Damas, but Joseph's gotten more. It's very difficult too,
and I can't even do it justice to summarize. I
hate that word. The end of life of four individuals.
(00:22):
And for our purposes on this episode, in the previous
episode of Bodybacks, we have split these episodes into So
today we're going to pick up where we left off,
and we're going to talk about Xanta Canodle and Ethan
Chapin and what they went through and their final moments
(00:49):
in this life. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Day.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
We really walked down quite the gruesome path in our
last episode of Bodybags, and you know, I got to
tell you, it's not for the faint of heart. None
of this is. I think that we've probably always known
that it was not going to be for the faint
of heart.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
I got to.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Tell you, I did not, even in my experience, Dave,
I did not anticipate the level of violence that we've
been discussing. A part of me thinks that I was
hoping that it wasn't going to be to this degree
(01:40):
because we've spent so much time going over this case
and discussing this case for all these years, and then
when this information finally drops.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
You realize the scope of.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Everything that these kids went through. And I think about
Kayley and the level of trauma that she endured.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
I got to tell you.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Zanna is equal to that. And I don't know, there's
there's really no equality here. Perhaps it's just it's just
how over the top these injuries are. And it says
a lot about the person that perpetrated, perpetrated these crimes
and again convicted of them.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
When we were talking about Beginzava's family yesterday, during a
lot of the recording and on al Fair, we've talked
about this case a lot.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
And the one thing that.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
You and I in covering stories for so many years,
you tend to see families of the victims. Some are
are just taking it back where they can't even speak
they're so emotional there, or the opposite, so shut down
that they can't speak. But in this one, from the
very beginning, from early on, the Gonzavaz family was very,
(03:11):
very harsh, not just their wording, but they were very upfront,
very in your face. And now we know why. I
think a lot of us assumed that they had a
lot more information than we did which they did, and
that's why they were given a wide berth, you know,
(03:33):
to say what they wanted to say. But Steve Gonzalvez
in particular did dial himself back a little bit. He
didn't volunteer everything they knew. But it was just I
now understand why he felt the way that he did.
And I will tell you my heart hurts for all
of the family members because no matter how they handle it,
(03:53):
it's better than me. That's all I keep thinking, Joe,
based on what you and I have found out over
the last few days of what happened with these young people.
Every family, whether they were quiet and reserved or loud
in holding meetings, they all did it better than me.
I don't think I would have emotionally, psychologically survived the
(04:16):
knowledge that these families have of what happened to their
loved one.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Yeah, that's the tough thing, and you know that. I
think that that kind of brings us to Xanna, and
in maybe kind of the securitest way, she I think she,
out of all of the all of the victims, we
knew not quite as much about her family background, and
(04:42):
she had to say that she had come from kind
of a tough tough raising, I think is maybe an understatement,
and not that not that there are degrees to tragedy,
because everything is tragic in its own way. Her death
is tragic in its own unique way because she is
(05:06):
literally one of these kids that's kind of pulled herself
up just through sheer will, that hardcore will. And you know,
I've had kids like her, you know, over the course
of my academic career, where they are determined that they're
going to do better, that they are gonna set their
(05:30):
faces like flint collectively and individually, and they are just
going to push on through no matter what. And she's
she I think Xanna epitomized that. And what was you know,
again kind of very poignant about this is I think
(05:50):
that with Ethan, and again I'm kind of superimposing what
I believe here. I think that with Ethan, she saw
like this great family, you know, that she could potentially
be a part of, and that stability. You know a
lot of kids that you know, come from homes that
don't necessarily have that kind of support, They longed for that,
(06:14):
they long for that for that stability.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
To give you an idea of who we are dealing
with in her family, Joe. Yeah, Ann Taylor, the attorney
for the murderer, actually represented Xana Karnodle's mother in a
drug related incident. She was actually the attorney of record
for Xanna Kernodle's mom, and when this case came along
(06:40):
and she saw the opportunity to get a lot of publicity,
she moved everything aside so that she could become appointed,
you know, to be the public defender for the cover case.
Sorry I used his name, but that's the reality here.
So Ann Taylor actually defended Xanakernodle's mother before she got
(07:05):
that out of the way and became the attorney for
the person who killed her client daughter. Think about that
for just a minute, and it also explains the kind
of background Xana grew up in. That's her mom not
knocking anyone, but her dad didn't do anybody any favors
by what he did during his statement, his impact statement,
(07:26):
because it was meandering and it was all about him.
Well he was gonna miss you know, and I get that.
Look I've said it before, Joe, I don't know how
I would have acted in that situation. I understand how
every I could have been any one of them, you know,
given the moment. But it's not something easy to speak
(07:47):
in front of an audience, a crowd that you've never met,
in front of a judge in a courtroom in a
foreign place and actually be articulate, you know, and makes
sense because your heart broken, you have been stomped on,
and I don't know how you get out of bed
in the morning.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
So that's off to all of them.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
But you're right to identify Xana as the victim of
this situation who had really done well. You know, we
mentioned before, Joe, these young people were students in college
and they were all good students. Yeah, everyone, that's such
(08:27):
a rare thing. It's just not the norm. You know
it as a professor and as a parent, we both
know it.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, and these kids were all I think Ethan was
still early in his career, but I have no doubt
that he would have completed. All of these kids were
tracking toward graduation. And you know, listen, so which will
that's the exception as opposed to the norm most people
that start college, if you look at them in total,
(09:00):
that's that's not that's not generally going to happen. Most
people will fall by the wayside. They might come back
and pick up college later. But all of these young
people who were tracking toward graduation, you know, one had
already moved out and was done with all of the
(09:20):
requirements and everything. So yeah, and finished early. So you
look at that and you think, Wow, what are the
odds that this group of young people would all come together?
Maybe that was one of the core elements that drew
them all together. And you know, and I can never
get past that image that was taken the day before,
the group image of all of these kids together. I
(09:43):
think that was actually taken at an adjacent property. I
was always under the impression that was taken there on property,
the outdoor shot of them that I had heard that
that was taken at an adjacent property. But yeah, with
Xana in particular, there's quite the quite she she's been
kind of a touchstone throughout this. We've got uh, Maddie
(10:10):
and Kaylee isolated. We talked about that extensively, and you know,
uh Kaylee in particular, trapped I think was the word
that her daddy used, Trapped in that bed and in
that room. But Xana was of course free in this.
(10:31):
She she moved about. We don't really know what it
was that drew her attention, Dave. But her story in
and of itself, kind of her her little life, you know,
kind of weaves itself all the way through everything from
her being up active on her phone, the food order,
(10:52):
collecting the food, you know, and then what what did
she hear that drew her attention up this adjacent stair
stair will And you know, I don't know that that
mystery will ever be completely solved. I don't know that
that's possible, but I think that we we kind of
have an idea. Would you agree with that statement, man.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Well, yeah, we have based on what we now know
from the police interviews. Early on, we know that Dylan
Dylan said Dylan Mortenson that she heard Kaylee scream somebody
is in the house.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Now we know that Dylan heard what it sounded to
her as a scuffle that she thought might be Kaylee
playing with her doge, but then she heard a loud
thud and then muffles, muffled noises, I guess the better
(11:58):
way to put that. But based on what Dylan told
police and the hours after this happened, recounting what it
appears to be, and based on what Bill Thompson, the
prosecutor said, Xana heard what was going on as well.
(12:18):
She was awake, Ethan was crashed out. They came in,
Ethan crashed. They've been in a couple hours. Xana was up,
she was on her phone, she placed the order from
Jack in the box, it was delivered, and she's got
her food. So she's awake hearing something going on that
is not normal for her to hear. And after, you know,
(12:40):
Dylan heard the scream somebody's in the house, Xana probably went,
who's in the house, what the heck? And so she
went to go look whereas Dylan Mortenson. Bethony Fulks said
they stayed put Dylan in particular said she was mortified
and scared and stayed in her room. She put her
head out three different times. But Zan and it appears
(13:02):
might have actually gone up the stairs to the third
floor to find out what was going on. And based
on timing sounds, yep, it appears that she came in
contact with a killer on those stairs.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yeah, and then and then the chase was on at
this point in time, because when you when you think
of okay, let's just look at it this way. And
I think everybody that is listening to us right now
can identify with the idea of hearing a sound in
our home at night. I can't tell you how many
(13:42):
times that's happened and you get up out of bed
and you go inspect it, or you know, uh with
with Kim laying right next to me, who is a
light sleeper, I get the elbow. Did you hear that?
You know? And then you you arise, I'm not going
(14:02):
to get my wife to go. You arise, and you know,
And so anytime I arise out of the bed, I'm
going to be accompanied by my little friend who shall
go unmentioned, that I keep with me at all times
to inspect the area. She didn't have that advantage. And
(14:23):
when you go to inspect your house, you don't. You
don't really. I think your hair standing up, maybe on
the back of your neck. I think that that's, you know,
the promal response, you know, you that kind of tingling
feeling that you get and then you confirm. Most people
confirm that it was nothing okay. However, there are those
(14:43):
moments in time where you come face to face with satan,
which in Xana's case, I think that that's what happened.
I agree. She goes and here's the other thing. If
she hears whimpering or hears kind of a fold sound.
Let's reflect back to what we talked about in the
(15:06):
previous episode, where you've got life leaving the bodies of
these two young women, if they're not deceased at that
point time, if there's any kind of sound I talked
about yesterday about expiating blood, you would have coughing, you
may have someone that if they're capable of those last
(15:28):
few moments with a death rattle, or they're experiencing pain,
their moaning or something like this, there's still that remnant
that's there. Maybe it caught her ear at that point time,
and as she ascends this staircase, he's now descending the staircase,
(15:48):
removing himself from this environment. Which here's the thing I'm
wondering in the perpetrator's mind here, if this individual ual has,
if he's capable of this, if he's having this indwelling fear,
kind of fight flight kind of thing that's going on
(16:09):
after he's kind of loosed himself in this frenzy that
he has, whatever the motivation is, hatred, anger, sex, maybe
a combination of all three. He thinks he's free and
clear he didn't expect to find two people. He found one.
I mean, he expected maybe to find one, found two.
Who knows. And he's already heightened, he's already spent. And
(16:32):
then all of a sudden, you get this other burst
of adrenaline on his part. You're confronting somebody on these
darkened stairs. You know that they're in front of you.
You know what you've just done upstairs. You've got to
put as much distance between those people up there and
the people that person that's standing before you at this time. Well,
(16:52):
it's at that moment, Tom, that the attack begins, or
at least the pursuit begins. We know that Xanna is
found on the floor of her bedroom. He's chased her
in here and has assaulted her Dave, and again we're
faced with the proposition of this wounding that has taken place,
(17:14):
these injuries, which again are almost too unimaginable for any
of us to comprehend. I don't know that anyone can
(17:42):
appreciate the fear. When I was little, I used to
have this reoccurring dream that I was being chased and
that everything around me was on fire, and that there
were these fire people chasing me. Now, I don't know
how you dissect that dream. I don't know what goes
(18:03):
into it. I'm sure that there's some deep seated pathology there.
It wouldn't surprise me on my part. But and it
was a dream that I had into my twenties. It
was like a reoccurring dream for a moment. Xanna had
something like that. But Dave, she had an I think
that she had an awareness because obviously she's awake. This
(18:26):
is no dream. It's like that that line from Rosemary's
Baby where Mia Ferriss says, this isn't a dream. This
is really happening. For those of you that are not
familiar with that book or that movie, horrible, horrible story.
But that's it's something that you cannot necessarily wrap your
(18:47):
brain around. And for those moments that would have been
in her last moments, that would have she's trying to
flee from this individual and get away after he has
kind of entered into her room.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Dave, all hell breaks loose. It is directed at her.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Sergeant Shane Gunderson actually wrote in his report about what
took place in the room. In Xama's room, he actually
noted that they could tell a fierce struggle took place
in that room, and so if you're the way, I'm
thinking this took place between Kayleie screaming somebody's in the house,
(19:35):
Xanna goes upstairs to see what's going on. Her boyfriend
is in her bed, crashed out. I'm guessing Coburger the
killer meets her on the stairs getting I'm picturing her
timidly listening to see what's going on, and he comes
(19:57):
out and sees her, and she takes off to try
to get to her room, and he's in a like
you mentioned, probably was not expecting anything to stop him.
Everybody's going to be asleep. I'm going to get in
there and get out, and I'm gonna leave this mayhem.
I'm going to leave horror behind. But instead he ends
up having to into a real fight with Maddie and Kaylee.
(20:19):
And he comes down the stairs and he sees Xana
and she's taken off trying to get back to the
safety of a room, thinking I can shut the door
and lock it and start screaming.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
She never makes it. He gets her.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
And I would like to know more about what took
place in that hallway, because we know that she didn't
make it all the way into her room. We know
that where her body was, you know, was yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
And I would love to.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Talk to like an endochronologist sometime to try to understand
this idea of adrenaline dumps, where you know you've got
an individual that is like they are in this case,
this monster has perpetrated this crime. That's one adrenaline dump
that you have going on in that moment, and then
all of a sudden, maybe it begins, you have this
(21:05):
conscious awareness that you need to leave. Then all of
a sudden you get another dump when you come face
to face with an eyewitness. At that point in tom
you track her down into the room. And Dave, you
remember what I was saying yesterday about Kayley. We had
(21:32):
one report for the police that came out that said
that she had twenty sharp force injuries. Mister Gonzalez said
that it was upwards of thirty. Okay, Dave, I got
to tell you. I know that we're not necessarily comparing numbers,
(21:54):
but please tell me the number with Xanna. I mean
that we're looking at right now, fifty background.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Fifty mostly defensive wounds. Now, the way it has been pitched,
not pitched, the way it has been written down by police.
Was that a massive struggle took place, A fight is
breaking out, and yet Dana Krenodle did not go without
putting up a fight. She fought long and hard and
(22:25):
I don't know, again, a minute probably feels like an
hour when you're in this kind of a battle for
your life. She was in a life and death struggle
with the devil. Fifty stab wounds, arms, defensive wounds. One
of them was described as grabbing the knife. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
(22:46):
I can't imagine, Joe. I you know, we see this
in movies and things like that, where somebody in desperation
grabs the knife, but she has that wound on her
hand and she grabs a blade.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Did you know that that? I don't know if you
remember that we've been doing this for so long now,
did you know that for me at least, we had
been hearing sharp force injury, stab wounds, that sort of thing,
but it was very generalized and broad. Okay, do you
recall that that descriptor of Xana was actually the first
(23:22):
bit of specific injury data that was leaked out? And
the reason I remember it is that whoever originally released
that information and I can't recall who it was they
referred to tendons at that point in time, the tendons
in the hand, and it would it doesn't surprise me
(23:45):
at all because grabbing this blade and having the blade
actually drawn through the hand forcefully is not surprising. We
go back to we go back to Kayley that had
these blocking injuries. You know, I talked about these. I
use the term parry, which is a term that's used
(24:07):
in ni fighting and sword fighting. It's a defensive move
where you raise your arm. It would seem to me
that some of these injuries would have been similar in
that sense. But when you're talking about fifty and this
number is being utilized or used rather to describe her injuries,
(24:28):
they're going to come in multiple presentations on her body. Obviously,
you have to have you have to have specific injuries
that are going to end her life. But let's just
think about these defensive injuries just for a second. They
(24:48):
were very specific on her left hand, and I would
not that your hand dependency really comes into play so
much circumstance like this when you're fighting for your life.
I'd really like to know if Xanna was left handed
or right handed, because one of these really ghastly injuries
(25:10):
that she sustained, notes that it was between the left
index finger and her thumb. So if you imagine, imagine
just grasping something anything a soda can, a pin, or
whatever it is you want to pretend with you grasp
(25:32):
this and that kind of webbing, the webbing that we
have that extends through between your index finger and your thumb,
that would have been sliced all the way through. And
I would imagine that there are probably going to be
several that are similar to that over the surfaces of
(25:53):
her body, because when you think about fifty Dave, there's
only so many places that you can go, and she's
a tiny she's a tiny young lady. You can look
at her images and tell this. She doesn't have a
lot of surface areas, so she's going to have them
anatomically oriented in multiple locations. I think at least she's
(26:17):
also been and I think that this is indicative of
trying to get her to submit.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Again.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
This goes to how violent this attack was. She's got
multiple blunt force trauma as well. You know, just think
about if you've ever seen a fight where you've got
an individualist trying to get someone under control and they
begin to punch them. The punching, I think comes about
(26:46):
to kind of disorient them so you can accomplish the task.
In this case, the task was to end her life.
There was no way she was going to get out
of these circumstances, Dave, at all. So you're going to
have this individual, this perpetrator, this lizard, striking her multiple times.
(27:08):
I also believe that he is probably holding the knife
as he's doing this, and the knife is being used
as a bludgeon. I submit to you that probably the
end of the knife, and I'm not talking about the
business end with the tip of the blade. I'm talking
about the handle, is being used to hammer away. I
was talking some folks just last night, Dave, about the
(27:33):
utility of the k bar knife. Okay, and did you
know that with the k bar it's such a robust
weapon that when the Marine Corps created it, it has
multiple utility. This blade is so robust and resilient that
you can actually open crates of AMMO with it. So,
(27:56):
just thinking the South Pacific, you've got these little wooden
crates that comes in or chow comes in, food, whatever
it is. You can take this blade and stick it
between the lid and the rest of the framework of
these wooden crates and pop the thing open. Also, you
can flip the knife around and the rounded butt of
the handle can be used as a hammer dave, so
(28:17):
you're striking down And if you if you look, if
you look at the end of a k bar knife
on the on the handle portion of it, it actually
looks like the head of a hammer. And so it
would not surprise me if the knife had been utilized
this way during these attacks. This is where you're getting
(28:39):
these grotesque blunt force trauma from that are that these
victims are being subjected to know.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
The one thing that I was trying to gather in
my thoughts because I'm a visual person.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
You know, I can and.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
I'm picturing, which is why it bothered me. They tore
the house down, and yeah, because I wanted to know.
I wanted to be able to count the steps. I
wanted to know where did Xana actually come in contact
with her killer and was she hoping beyond all hope
that Ethan would wake up. You know that she's getting
(29:14):
to the room because the fact that she was found
in the middle of the room on the floor.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
She's not on the.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Bed, She's not pushed against. So she stood there and
fought her killer right there. You know she you mentioned
she was a slight woman. Coburger. You know, he's six
foot tall. I mean he's going to out he's going
to be stronger than her. And you would have thought
he would have been able to push her against a
wall to you know, in the effort of killing. But
(29:41):
she fought in the middle of that room where she died.
And what we do know from those defensive wounds is
that she didn't go quickly, she didn't go quietly, and
we know that Dylan Mortenson said that she heard a
(30:03):
male voice she didn't recognize, basically saying I'm here to help, right,
I got you, don't worry, you know, calming her down
so that she didn't speak. I guess. And what we
know of Xanna from that moment, she was the only
one that truly was awake and engaged as this took place.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Yeah, fully fully engaged brother all the way all the
way through, you know. I The one thing about is
this is that these these kids were brutalized in such
a way that and I find this quite remarkable. I'd
(30:46):
love to know what you think about this. With Kaylee
and Maddie. They both sustained injuries to their chest, to
the organs of the chest. Okay, so the lung lungs
in particular with them, the left long. With Xanna, she
actually sustained a laceration to her right lung as well
(31:13):
as two lacerations to her heart. Okay, Again, this individual
is in a dominant position over them. And here's here's
the Here's the real thing, man, here's the real thing.
They would have been literally face to face with him,
(31:38):
face to face. This guy, even through that that darkness,
that desperate darkness in there, he he is the only
thing they see. Let let that settled down into everyone's
(32:03):
groundwater just for a second. The last thing that your
eyes behold before you before you step off into eternity.
Is this reptile? A big mystery I think in everything
(32:36):
with this case is is Ethan? What happened to Ethan?
We've heard quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Let me tell you.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Let me just throw some things out to you that
came across my desk. This doesn't mean they're valid, okay.
And you never know, And this just goes to show
you never know what's floating about out there. And these
conclusions that people draw. Did you know at one point
in tom there was a story that was floating about
(33:11):
that talked about how Ethan see how do you go?
Ethan was found on the floor of the bedroom and
his throat had been cut as if out of a
slasher movie where the blade was, you know, drawn across
the neck, those sorts of things, and he essentially fell
(33:32):
right there. Well, I got to tell you, Dave, everything
that we've heard, the information that we do have about
Ethan doesn't validate that in any way, you know, when
you begin to think about the position that he was
found in. And what we do know is that he
(33:54):
was in the bed, all right. He was in Xana's bed.
This is her room. He was spending the night there,
and that's really all we know. And we haven't had
a lot of comment from his family because the family
was not there to deliver a victim impact statement. And look,
(34:16):
they made that choice. They felt like that, and I think,
and I'm getting this accurate, that they felt as though
they wanted to honor him by going out on their
boat that day. And it brings me back to an
image that I saw that has been thrown around quite
(34:36):
a bit. And you can see this image of it's
a sweet, sweet picture, and it's a picture of Ethan
and Zenna on a boat together. And you you know,
as you well know, I love my boat and I
spend as much possible time as as I can on
that boat with my bride, and it's it is our
(34:58):
happy place. And I hope that the they were happy
for at that moment time, as sad as that day was.
But we haven't had them making statements specifically about Ethan's injuries.
But what we do know is that he's obviously found
in the bed. He sustained pretty significant trauma relative to
(35:21):
this individual who has now confessed killing him, Dave, and
has now been convicted and is now thrown into a
deep dark hole. But we do finally have a mystery
solved here, and this just came to mind, Dave. It
has been confirmed that that image that was foisted upon
(35:46):
us for so long, of the quote unquote blood dripping
out of the house.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Which I thought was fake by the way, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Yeah, you told me that. And let me tell you something.
I defy anybody to go back and find any statement
or written statement, or vocalized statement, image anything of me
saying that that's blood. I never said that, and I
never have and the reason I didn't is because I
know better than to do that. No person involved in
(36:18):
forensics what their salt, would call that blood's there's a
whole most people are not aware. We might see things
at a scene, okay, and it might look like blood
to us, but we will not say that it is
in fact blood. We can't even comment, like in an
(36:39):
official report, that that this looks like blood. You can
say maybe a blood like substance until you can actually
scientifically confirm it. And can I run down this list
for you real quick? I won't belabor the point. But
first off, we have to identify and this is the
(37:02):
way this works. We have to identify that this substance
is blood, and if blood, we have to identify if
it's animal blood or human blood. Then the next step
is to confirm if it is human blood. And this
(37:23):
is what it used to work. What blood type is it?
You know, so you've got your ABO groupings. Then from
there you can pull information from that sample and get
a DNA profile on it. And we have come to
find out now that they have identified and this is
per the police, that that blood that seeped down that
(37:45):
foundational wall. It looks like center block to me, that
exterior wall that they keep showing over and over again
that it was blood and that this blood actually belonged
to Ethan dave Ye.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
I was shocked to hear that that was the truth.
And the reason is it didn't seem likely. It seemed
like something that would have happened as a gag on Halloween.
And the one thing I have learned in doing things
with you over the years, you don't even mention if
something looks like a bullet wound. You know, somebody is
(38:18):
shot and you see where the hole is for the
but you don't call it a bullet wound. You call
it something other than that defect. Yeah, I'm like, well,
and the same thing is true here seeing that picture
of blood, I thought it was going to be something else,
but it really was Ethan's blood. And now that we
know that Ethan was in the bed asleep, they'd been
(38:39):
at a frat party earlier, got home Tewish He's crashed,
sound asleep when Xanna orders the food from Jack in
the Box, and with everything going on, with Xanna hearing
the upstairs at activity, hearing his scream, even sleeping through
(39:01):
all of that apparently.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
But his injuries actually.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Kind of make me understand why there was blood coming
out the side of that on the outside wall, because
we've got now I don't know exactly how many times
he was stabbed, but I know it was at least once,
because that was the original thing, was that he was
stabbed and it got his jugular vein, and that was it.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
Now well looked.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Yeah, let me back up here just for a seconds.
You did get a shugglar vein, but it's also gotten
it also clipped his subclave vein, which is different than
the juggler, and it also got his subclavicular artery as well.
(39:52):
And thank you, by the way, you sent me a
text last night. Yeah, he sent me a text last night.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
Clinny. It is the case that we Weretney Clinny.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Yeah, Courtney Clinny that threw the knife that killed that
young man. She claimed that she threw the knife, which
you know, if you're selling it, ain't buying it.
Speaker 3 (40:11):
And that's why.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
And Joe, just so that we're clear here, when we
did the you know, fan the model thing, you know
only fans about Courtney Clinny and her claim that you know,
she just threw the steak knife and it just happened
to hit him right there. I had no idea that
that was a dangerous spot to hit somebody. It seemed
like an actually a pretty innocuous spot. But when you
(40:34):
actually were breaking that down, when I saw this where
I mentioned subclavian vein, subclavian artery, and jugular vein, my
first thought is, Okay, we're all going to know jugular vane.
We've all heard that, these other ones I don't know.
So is this something could be done with one knife wound?
Could one knife wound get all of this?
Speaker 1 (40:55):
I suppose that it could. And they're very non specific
and they're listing up, yeah, these injuries because you're going
to have this complex of vessels that run through this area,
And yeah, could you get subclave artery, the subclave vein,
(41:16):
and the jiggler vein all in one stab wound. I
think that you probably could. I think that would probably
be improbable. They're kind of bundled altogether. We don't know
if it's multiple stab wound because they're not really talking
about that at this point, and I anticipate here's something
else that I'm kind of very interested in. It's going
(41:38):
to be the blood pattern deposition on this. And here's why,
because if ethan, if we believe what they're saying that
he was awake and that he never moved from that position,
he was killed where he lay. If they clipped an
(42:00):
artery there to a vein to a lesser degree, particularly
particularly that subclave artery day, you're going to have a
tremendous amount of force coming through there. That and you've
heard this term of arterial spray, where the spray of
(42:22):
the blood as it's pouring out, it comes out with
such force you'll get this almost histamin like deposition on
surrounding surfaces. Here's another thing. I have to think that
he did lay in one position for a protracted period
(42:44):
of time as he bled out, because you're getting enough
blood here that it would have to seep. And again
this is based upon what they're saying, seep off of
the edge of the bed or through the bed, then
adjacent to the wall, go past the flooring, the sub flooring,
(43:05):
and then wind up presenting itself on the exterior of
the house. Dave, just let that sink in.
Speaker 3 (43:12):
A lot of that.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
The just that external view that you have of the
blood you know, that's on that foundational those foundational blocks
is kind of interesting to me because it's through that
if you if you go back and you think, okay,
he laid in one spot, that gives you an idea
(43:35):
as to where that bed is positioned in that room
that this would have poured through or poured adjacent to,
which is a big reveal here. I think they're not
saying anything about defensive wounds. And here's another thing that
they don't say anything about that we've heard this so
(43:58):
called carving on the leg and I don't know where
that initially came from. Maybe it does exist, it has,
it wasn't stated in this document dumped to this point.
I'd be fascinated as to know what that the origin
of that source information was.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
I think about the will to live, and I think
about his smugness to not even really show any kind
of emotion or anything else.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
It's like.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
Kind of like Ali Gonzalvez, one of her relatives. I
think it was their little sister that passed along an
idea that you might have gotten big a's in school, Yeah,
going to get big d's in prison.
Speaker 3 (44:43):
There you go, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
You know, there is no there is no justice for
what he did, you know, I think that's but I
look at these wounds and I think about my own daughters.
Speaker 3 (44:53):
That's I can't get that out of my head. I
think what he did to them.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
I don't think any of us can, Dave. I don't
think the nation can. Because you know now we at
least we've had a peek, if you will, behind the
curtain as to the devastation that took place on that
November night in twenty twenty two, those years ago. Now
(45:19):
you know, we're in twenty twenty five. Now it will
almost be three years. Just as such as it is
has been some time coming. It has arrived. I don't
know to what degree of satisfaction, and it doesn't really
matter what I think about it. What I hope for, though,
(45:44):
at the end of all of this, is that we
take the lessons that can be learned from these horrific
circumstances and apply them so that it doesn't happen again.
And those lessons come in all forms. That come in
all forms, everything from personal security to the individuals we
(46:08):
are surrounded by, and I think to those people that
support us, we need to embrace those people. We need
to love those people that are in our lives for
those moments of fleeting moments that we have in life.
Life is in fact, very very short, folks. Most people
(46:28):
don't understand that, and when you are in the bloom
of youth, it seems as though that it will go
on forever and ever. But for these four lives that
have been lost now, we can't say too much more
other than they're gone, and hopefully along the way their
(46:52):
absence will be replaced by some measure of peace in
the hearts and minds of their family.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Guys.
Speaker 3 (47:03):
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.
Speaker 2 (47:09):
M mm hmm.
Host
Joseph Scott Morgan
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