April 29, 2025 • 47 mins
Andrea Eilber is 20-years-old and is dating a guy she met at work at the local grocery store, KC Grondin. Andrea and KC are in a very special place in their relationship, described by friends as very "lovey-dovey" with one another. When Andrea is asked to house-sit for her Aunt and Uncle she invites her boyfriend to come over for a movie night. When KC arrives at the house, Andrea's car is not in the driveway and nobody answers the door. KC goes home and gets a text from Andrea cancelling their plans and telling him they will talk tomorrow. KC goes home crestfallen thinking Andrea is breaking up with him. The next day when nobody can get Andrea by phone or text, her father organizes a search party. Andrea Eilber's car is found abandoned on a nearby road. When the house is searched, Andrea is found in the basement, tied to a chair, shot in the back of the head. Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack discuss how police found their suspect, arrested, tried, convicted, and sent him to prison, while the real killer was walking around free. And how the scientists at Othram helped catch the real killer. It is another success for Othram and DNASolves.com
Transcribe Highlights
00:29.41 Introduction
00:40.49 Working in grocery store
04:39.77 Andrea Eilber and KC Grondin are infatuated with one another
09:06.09 Andrea is housesitting for relatives, but she is missing
15:10.13 Andrea Eilber is found tied to chair, shot in back of head
20:18.20 Police question everyone about boyfriend/girlfriend relationship, boyfriend identified as suspect, arrested, convicted
25:06.43 Why police give suspects water to drink
30:56.96 KC Grondin, released but under house arrest
35:21.31 Othram case - DNA Solves
40:05.10 Police follow new suspect and find sample to get DNA - Chadwick Mobley pleads no-contest
45:06.35 Prosecutors may charge KC Grondin again
48:46.43 Conclusion
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Quody bags with Joseph's gotten more. The worst job I
ever had was working in a grocery store. I hated it.
I hated every single day I went to work. And
I think probably one of the reasons I hated that
job so much is, first off, it was labor intensive.
(00:27):
I was very young, so they had me on the
front and bag. This is back when people actually bagged
groceries and took them out to your car for you.
I hated that, and I'm not a big people person,
so you know, it wasn't my thing back then. And
(00:48):
then I hated having to come in at three point
thirty in the morning to unload trucks. I didn't mind
so much doing the stocking. I just hated unloading the trucks.
I really did. And my god, the managers horrible, horrible.
But that was many decades ago, and here I am now.
(01:12):
But you know, I want to talk about a case
today that actually originates by a relationship that was formed
in a Kroger supermarket. I guess love bloomed, but unfortunately
it ended in homicide. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this
(01:38):
his body backs. Did you ever have stock shells? Dave
get Did you ever have one of those jobs?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Joe, I am one of those people who I had
an idea of what I wanted to do with my life,
what career path I wanted to be on, and then
found a way to begin doing it at the age
of fourteen.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
That was to be on radio.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
And I actually wanted to be on the radio doing
baseball games, calling them, you know, yeah on first and second,
no outs, bottom of the ninth, Joseph Scott Morgan steps in.
That's what I wanted to do and with yeah, because
I didn't think playing ball was going to work out
for me. So anyway, I did that. And I've actually
(02:23):
I said it many times. I've actually never had a
real job. I've worked in radio or in my entire life.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
So well, I got to tell you my goal when
I was a little boy, I wanted to be an archaeologist.
I always that was because I love history. I do
like I love digging in the dirt, which I got
to do, you know, helping helping forensic anthropologists throughout the years.
They called me a professional when I go out there,
(02:50):
cease being a death investigator and I became a shove leaner,
which means that if you're working around forensic anthropologist slash archaeologist,
you're there to do their scut work. And so I'd
be taking the shovelfuls of soul and putting it into
the sifter and.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
What you called it, a shovel leaner.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
A shovel leaner. Yeah, yeah, so okay, most of the
time that's applied to people from the dot, you know,
they're leaning on shovels. Yeah, I was. I was a
professional shovel leaner. But yeah, not too many roads lead
away from the local pigley wiggly to a career in archaeology.
So unfortunately I had I had to start, I had
to start out there. But it put gas in my car, right,
(03:30):
you know, so I am grateful for it, but it
was it was probably I preferred. I really did prefer
working in the moork to work in the grocery store. Yeah,
I really did.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I respect people that have those jumps, yeah, because I
know that it's like, I don't know what it's like
clocking in, and I'm thankful for that. I worked hard
to not clock in. I worked hard for that. But
I've admired people who do that, can go in and
do something like that day in and day out and
find satisfaction and and build from it. And in this case,
(04:02):
we're actually dealing with a young couple. We're talking late teens,
and they meet at a Kroger and they actually are
they're in this really lovey dovey stage, the kind where
people are really infatuated with one another and they're just
old enough where they're outside of that puppy love you
get when you're fourteen and fifteen before you can drive,
(04:24):
and you know, that's a different infatuation than it is
when you're nineteen twenty years old. You're out of high
school and you're in college or moving forward with your
adult life. And so when you're in that infatuated state,
it can kind of be sickening for those who are
not in that state.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Come on, you know it, just stop.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
That's where they were, and that's where this couple, Andrea
Ilberg and her boyfriend Casey Grondin, that was where they
were in their relationship. They were in that lovey dovey
I can't stand to be a minute. You know, where
they'd like go to sleep holding the phone kind of thing,
you know, right right on their pillow.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
That.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Yeah, So anyway, for those.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Well hey, wait, hang on now, I remember falling asleep
on the phone talking to Kim when we were in
that dating phase, and it you know, now she just says,
you know, I'll fill her elbow and she said, do
you hear anything I said? Are you awake? You know
(05:27):
it's gone from you know, that was so sweet to
you know, are you listening? So yeah, you know, it changes,
like you said, man, it changes over time and it
goes through phases like that. But I don't think this
relationship necessarily worked out the way. Maybe both individuals planned
for it too. They were kind of a strange And
(05:48):
by the way, this this actually happened a loath these
many years ago, to the east of Flint, Michigan, in
a town called Mayfield Township. Sounds very Mayberry like to me.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
You're actually talking about, like, man, what a week and
a half, two weeks before Thanksgiving twenty eleve and Andrea
is house sitting for her aunt and uncle. And you know,
that's one of those things that you know, people do
still do, I guess in certain areas, you know, And
she's there and she's got her boyfriend. Hey, you come on,
you know, she's like, what nineteen twenty years old and
(06:27):
he's nineteen, and hey, come on over and let's watch
a movie. You know, I got the house to myself,
come on right, right, Yeah, And that was their plan,
and so he's all excited about it. Casey is and
he gets a message from her saying, you know, no,
it's off. Don't want to do it. And it was like,
because he went to the door, I think, didn't He
(06:48):
go to the home and knocks on the door. She
doesn't answer. Her car's don't answer. Yeah, it doesn't answer
at all. Yeah, And he's like, I'm at the right address,
you know. And then he gets a text message from
her phone that says, I'm not going to do it.
We're not doing this to and so he left and
he was so disappointed he thought she was breaking up
with him that he said he went home to his
house and basically crawled in bedd and cried.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
For three days.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Now nineteen year old man saying he went home and
crawled in bed and cried for three days. Gotta be honest, Joe,
that's not something I would admit to.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
But you know, I don't. I don't think so maybe
for a couple of hours, I don't know, but not
for a protracted period of time like that. Plus all
that crying leaves you quite dehydrated as well. So I
just I don't think. I don't I don't see myself
doing that. And look, I know that you know, these events,
(07:43):
particularly when you're young, can be absolutely soul crushing. And
this is another thing. When you're that young, you are
not sophisticated enough to actually read the room. That you're
easily fooled. And I think a lot of it. And
I guess you don't necessarily have to be young to
have that happen. But when love is involved and you're vulnerable,
(08:08):
you know, you you know, your heart is like an
open target, so it can really, you know, it can
really impact you to a great degree. And of course,
you know, Dave, what do we always talk about? What
do we always talk about? Man? And I've preached this
over and over again relative to suspects, you're going to
(08:29):
be looking at those intimate partners, you know, in any
kind of case. So this young man, this young man,
you know that he's let everybody know that he was
involved in a relationship. And let me tell you one
more thing about the grocery store. All right, everybody at
the grocery store would have known that they were in
a relationship. They're not like keeping the secret. Families know
(08:53):
all of this sort of thing. But Dave, I got
to tell you this. This takes a dark turn really
really quickly.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
And well, okay, you know what she doesn't all right.
I want to go back to Casey for just a minute,
because he expected them to have a really nice date
night and it ends up being she's not there, her
car's not there at the house, and so in his mind,
she's breaking up with me because he got a text
an hour later, you know, and he goes and cries.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Well, when nobody can get up with her. The last
text from her phone was to him. He said, it
wasn't a.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Normal text from her, and that's kind of what sent
him in the direction he went.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
But the thing is is that.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
When nobody could get up with her the next day,
her dad was like, we got to find her. You know,
she's not answering her phone, she's not at the house,
and her car is not here either, so they began
looking for her right away. It wasn't where I'm trying
to think of how we go through the expression of
you got to wait a couple of days, you know,
before you really start looking. This was pretty quick because
(09:53):
she was twenty years old, and she was connected, and
she did have this boyfriend she was really infatuated with.
So when she's not where she's supposed to be, how sitting,
her car's not there, there was an immediate let's go
find her. Now, my first thought would have been go
to the house, the house that she's house sitting, and
go look through that house. But then if her car's
(10:14):
not there and the door is locked, are you going
to go in? I don't know, because apparently that wasn't
their first thought, they being those who decided to look
for her. But early the next day, her car was
found abandoned on a nearby road, and that's when when
they realized her how her car was abandoned, Then we
(10:34):
need to go look in the house, and that's what
they did, and they went inside the house and what
they found was the type of horrific thing you take
to your grave, you never forget the site that that
those and I don't know. That doesn't say exactly who
found her, Joe, and I'm wondering, I'm guessing it had
to be somebody very close to her.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yeah, and immediately, you know, you would call the police.
Can you imagine the horror that would run through your veins,
that would make the hair on the back of your
neck stand up, that would literally crush your soul to
see this beautiful young woman tied to a chair in
(11:20):
the basement of her aunt and uncle's home, having sustained
an execution style gunshot wound to the back of the head.
(11:44):
You know, I've never had anyone ask me this question. However,
I will give you the answer to the question that
no one has ever asked me. What would be my preference?
Endoor scene, outdoor scene, endoor scene. Every time for me,
it goes to this idea of containment, and you almost
(12:05):
have an indwelling barrier that's set up to a certain
degree that prevents loss of any kind of evidence. You
have to think, though, with this young lady, and from
what we know from this horrible homicide that took place
(12:26):
all the way back in twenty eleven, that there would
have been a significant amount of trace evidence at the scene,
either adjacent to her body or throughout the house. And
(12:48):
they've never really released how extensive her injuries were. We
do know that she was, and they've termed it as
being executed essentially after being tied down. Why would you,
I guess this is a big question. What would be
the purpose behind tying this young woman to a chair
(13:11):
if you just wanted to end her life? What would
drive a perpetrator to want to sit her down? The
only thing I can really think of, and I would
imagine that the police did as well, Dave, is they
would view this as perhaps torture of some kind or
(13:36):
a I don't know, an inquisition perhaps directed at her.
I'm going to control you. You will remain restrained in
this position. I want answers, and I want them now.
And if those answers are not given in a satisfactory manner,
we're going to blow your head off or we're going
(13:57):
to do grievous harm to you. And that's kind of
what this smacks of. So when you have someone, I mean,
let's fink my theory. Yeah, sure, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
I thought it was. He's done.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
The individual has done whatever they're going to do, and
they have tied her to this chair to say, look,
you're not going anywhere. I'm going to leave, okay, And
once I get done, you can try to get yourself
out and you can go. But I'm leaving now just
to calm her down. And then once she's calm and
realize that he's leaving, boom shot to the back of
(14:31):
the head.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah, and that's possible. I think one of the things
I'd like to know that we know that she's bound
to the chair, I'd really like to know if if
she was, if she was, you know, blindfolded anyway, you know, like,
(14:55):
for instance, if there was someone that if we go
with with your idea here that if there was someone
that she knew that was doing this, wouldn't they want
to blindfold her so that she wouldn't have any knowledge
of who they were, But that would imply that they
had taken her by surprise, you know, so that they
(15:18):
couldn't be identified if they were going to let her
go free, but she could still recognize voices as well.
And for whatever reason, someone was driven to commit a
homicide and it's not like she was being there shooting
her to wound her, Dave, this is a this is
a headshot, all right. So the intent there is to
(15:41):
end her life. There's no other way to really, you know,
explain that and contain down there in the basement. That
also goes to another point. I think, you know, for
those of us that have basements in our home, the
sound quality in the basement is not the same as
it is throughout the rest of the house. So if
(16:02):
you take someone into a basement, you're kind of sequestering
them to a location, you know, because people can shout
and scream, because you know, many times basements are at
least partially, if not totally, underground, So you're, you know,
you're kind of insulated from sound escaping. And if you
want to do anything down there involving torture, you can
(16:26):
because most of the people are not going to hear
it that are in a right now. If you're up
on the first floor or the second floor, that sound
has a real chance of traveling out. So would would
they have known about this? The perpetrator that showed up
to the house. And remember, if we're talking about intimates,
If we're talking about intimates, this is not her domicile.
(16:48):
This is actually the domicile of her aunt and uncle.
So how did the perpetrator know that the house even
had a basement in it? You see what I'm what
I'm saying a kind of familiarity, you know.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
On my word, No, I you know what, now, I
understand why this case got messed up because everything that
you're talking about, Joe, the different things you have to
expect in an investigation, are still question marks here because
(17:22):
you the only thing we know for sure is twenty
year old and Andrea Ilbert is dead, tied to a chair,
shot in the back of the head. That's all we know.
In the basement of the house, which was this somebody
who was familiar like her boyfriend, somebody who was invited
over there like her boyfriend, that maybe downstairs was where
(17:46):
they were going to have a you know, I don't
know their date, even though she was house sitting, so
being in the basement really doesn't matter.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
But maybe he's there.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
And I mean, I'm trying to think like you're saying,
because I can't make sense of it at all. I
mean at all, Joe, this is really confusing.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah, it truly is. And of course the first person
that the police are going to look at is going
to be this boyfriend. And you know, and once I'm
sure that once he starts spilling his guts about this,
and he starts talking about how he felt like he
was rejected, you know first, you know, right out of
(18:24):
right out of the gate. You know, they're looking at
this guy really really hard for this. They're wanting to know. Yeah,
they're they're wanting they're wanting to try to get as
much information from him as possible, and they're going to
be assessing the nature of the relationship. And just to
understand this, if you're doing a history with somebody like this,
you're going to take them back. You know, how did
(18:46):
you guys first meet? Well, we know that we've established
that they met at work. How long have you been
seeing one another? And suddenly the question has become progressively
more uncomfortable. You know, have you guys been having trouble?
Have have you gotten into an argument? Did the argument
(19:07):
is physical? Yeah? Recently recently?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, last night you guys got Yeah, you were supposed
to be over there watching a movie, having date night
and wait a minute, the text says no.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
So what do you think about that, buddy?
Speaker 1 (19:18):
I mean yeah, And it's an out and out rejection,
and so you're thinking, if this, if this kid has
any kind of of anger that's built up over this,
you know, what was it? We said early on Dave,
this plays back into it. He goes in, and he
begins to cry and cries for this long protracted period
of time by his own admission. Okay, and I know,
(19:38):
you know, you can make a light of it, but
if he's wounded, he's wounded emotionally over it. And so
in rejection, Amen, every every I don't know anybody that
hasn't been rejected before, and particularly it's a very powerful thing.
And so you know, the police see see these breadcrumbs
along the way, They're also going to want to know
(19:59):
where are you involved in a physical relationship with her?
And again, you know, talking about how things become progressively
more uncomfortable. Then they go out to all the peripheral people.
Did you you know here at the front, at the
front of the store where the cash wrests are, did
you folks that worked these cash wrestlers, you ever see
them get into a fight up here? Were they ever
(20:20):
angry at one another? Did any of that happen? Are
there any instances? And oh, one more thing, is it
okay for people to date that work here? Can they date?
You know? What's the policy about that? That sort of thing?
So you have to consider every bit of this. But
Dave I got to tell you when they work this case.
(20:44):
They worked this case and the boyfriend is identified as
the number one suspect in this thing. Man, he not
only was he identified, he was actually arrested. Yep, dude,
he was charged and convicted on.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
This carrogation video is rough.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah. Yeah, the you know, the police, the police as
they're going through this process are pressing him, pressing him, pressing.
And if you're young and not very worldly, uh, it
always amazes me that people that want to fight with
(21:30):
cops on the street to get into you know, these
verbal verbal contests with cops. You know that you can
go to there's a technique that's taught that's taught in
uh and you go. You don't get it necessarily when
(21:50):
you're going through the academy, but there's actually a course
that's taught and I remember it very well.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
It's called verbal.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Judo and it it talks about how to either de
escalate a situation or how to press the buttons of
an individual. It's kind of a rudimentary way, you know,
to do this, and you know, cops make their living
by doing this. You know, that's why attorneys say keep
(22:16):
your mouth shut, don't say anything because you're not as
you'll never be as good as the cops are. There
might be a few that are out there that can
go toe to toe with the police, but every time
you say something, you're adding more fuel to the fire.
That's why you know, every attorney that I know that's
a defense attorney is going to say, keep your mouth shut,
(22:36):
ask for your phone call, and don't agree to anything.
And unfortunately, in this case, this young man not only
did he buckle under the pressure, Oh Joe Dave, he
was convicted and they sent away to the state prison
for life.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Joe for life.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Kim all I could think of, and I wanted to
ask you this because you know what it looked like.
You know what it looks like to find somebody tied
to a chair with a gunshot in the back of
the head. This nineteen year old kid doesn't. Were the
detectives able to sit him down in that room and say,
(23:17):
do you think maybe when she shot you down, that
you might have blacked out and maybe you did harm
her and you don't remember it, but maybe it happened,
and just maybe you did go in there and see
something and that's caused you to forget all these horrible
things that you've done because they're telling this kid you
can go home. Just look, man, we just got to
(23:37):
get this and you're going to be able to go home.
And I will tell you this goes back to you
said lawyers say, don't talk. Here's why this kid you
said it already. Chart arrested, charged with murder at trial, convicted,
sentenced to life imprison Joseph Scott Morgan and this kid
they got him to admit. He wrote down that he
(24:01):
entered the house, saw Ilber's body, assumed she committed suicide,
and then moved doc gigs in the room to make
it look like she hadn't harmed herself. I got to
write that down, Nune.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Yeah, it makes no sense whatsoever. And yeah, you were
talking about applying pressure. You know in that narrative that
you're giving there are also physical things that can be
done where they're not necessarily striking you. But I'll give
you for instance. Okay, let's say one of the first
things that they ask you when you're in that interview
(24:34):
room is, hey, man, you want a bottle of water.
And people think that's very benign, But what they'll do
and they'll give you as much water as you want, okay,
And what happens when you drink water, well, particularly me
at this age, I'll tell you what happens when I
drink water. But at that particular time, you know in
(24:56):
his life, you know, he's he's ten, he's confused, he
knows that he's here, he's being questioned there. You know,
I don't know, not necessarily him, but there are these
instances where you're giving water. Yeah, look, and the people
that are doing the interview can see that you're becoming
(25:16):
more uncomfortable because you've got to go avoid You've got
to go to the bathroom. And it's almost like a
Columbo moment where they say, yeah, we're gonna let you
go to the bathroom, but wait one more thing. Let's
go back to this point in time. So all the
while that internal pressure is building up in your bladder.
That's one of the little tricks. So keep your mouth shut,
(25:37):
don't drink any water. So, you know, you begin to
think about this and think about, well, why in the
world would he admit to this, Why would he Was
it because the police pressured him into it, or or
was it because he actually did it? So day with
(26:14):
Kenneth Grondon who, by the way, has been convicted. Now
he's he's essentially, you know, taken off to state prison
where he is going he begins to serve a lifelong sentence,
no possibility of parole at all. He's going in, as
(26:36):
they say, he's going in for all day. All right, Well,
two years.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
Into evicted by a jury. You want to add that, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Yeah, yeah, it's not just suggestion. It's not just the police,
you know, and do the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Man and had a jury, they sat a jury, they
presented the case, the evidence they had came out and
this at the time I'm of the murder. He's nineteen
years old. A couple of years go by and the
man is convicted. Joe, He's convicted by a jury of
his peers, not just a sitting judge. And that means
(27:11):
something to me because this kid, he didn't do it.
We know that ahead of time. That's why we're doing
the story. But thank god, Joe that there were other
people who did not believe he was guilty because he
was able to appeal, and when they did look at
the information, they're like, wow, this, I think we might
(27:33):
have got this wrong. Somebody along the line got this wrong.
Because he sentenced in twenty sixteen and it's twenty eighteen
when everything starts to come together for him. But he's
been in jail for he's been in prison, man, I mean,
what's it like when you go to prison, Joe.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Yeah, I Ain, it's the county lock up. I'll put
it to you that way.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
It's five foot ten.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yeah, he is five foot ten. And listen. One of
the reasons, and this comes into play that we know
his height, Grindin's height, is the fact that a bit
of the information that was used in this case to
convict him was the fact that he was he being grinding,
(28:19):
was identified that as using the victim's credit card, and
also that they have him doing this. You've got these
experts that have come in and they look at this thing.
(28:42):
They say, look this, this person that you're saying is
at the you know, at the ATM with herst stolen card,
you know, withdrawing money. This person's like six one six two.
Grind is five ten. And what they determined was that
(29:04):
was that not only that, but also the police had
violated what's referred to as Bender's rule, which just thumbnail here,
which states that a suspect must be told when an
attorney has been retained. So it's at that point in
time that you know, all you must cease and desist
(29:25):
with what you're doing with the suspect that they have
legal counsel, they will be there too, you know, to
offer assistance, and so anything that comes after that notification
is inadmissible Dave. So you know, he could he could
have admitted to anything. But if you break that particular rule,
(29:46):
then all of that stuff is, any information gleaned, is
going to be non admissible, and that that's what happened.
And then you couple that with the videography evidence that
just doesn't marry up, you know, with Grondin because he's
kind of of a you know, he's kind of a
stocky guy. You know, you look at him, he's you know,
kind of muscled. The older photographs of him, you know,
(30:08):
he's kind of muscled up and that sort of thing.
And this actually led Dave to him being released from
prison and sent home and placed in house arrest. Now
they haven't overturned.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
It, but he was not free to do what he wanted.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
No, huh no. But they send him home. He's out
of the joint.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Right thankfully, thankfully. But Joe, now it goes back to
you've got physical evidence that's got to be present whenever
there is a shot to the back of the head.
And I want to go back to that scene because
wouldn't there have been some type of physical evidence left
behind by the killer And wouldn't that killer take something
(30:51):
with him or her? Would they not leave something behind
and take something with them? I mean, I cannot get
past this because you're really in close proximity to somebody, yes,
you know, to tie them to a chair and you know,
and then shoot them in the back of the head.
I'm just trying to figure out why, how is it
possible that we stopped investigating and went after this one
(31:14):
guy because he was the low hanging fruit.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Yeah, he was a low hanging fruit. And here's something
that's kind of fascinating to me. You collect, and Dave,
what I'm i about to tell you this type of
evidence is very intimate evidence. You go to the trouble
to work the scene down, and you know, you're the
aunt and uncle's basement where she was house sitting and
(31:39):
found of course executed. You collect evidence at the scene
that is intimate. And the reason I say intimate. It's
not in a sexual sense. It is an item that
you place in your mouth that DNA evidence can easily
(32:04):
be transferred to. There are tons of these cases out there,
and that evidence is that said evidence is collected at seeing,
it's taken to the police station, and it ain't never tested.
I'm always amazed in these cases. You know where things
(32:25):
can go untested. You know, you don't get me on
my soapbox about rape.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Kits, and you know, because of costs.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
I think some of its costs and some of it
is And here's the downside of being quote unquote thorough.
It seems there are certain detectives out there and crime
scene texts that want to take everything okay, and don't
think that, you know, being a death investigator, you know,
(32:55):
robs you of your humanity or a crimising tech or
a detective, because when you go out to scene and
you collect everything at the scene, what are you going
to do with it? Well, you don't have the budget
to test everything that's there. So you look at all
of the items that you've collected, what's gonna what's going
(33:15):
to have the highest problem outcome, what's going to be
the most benefit to us? And we'll retain the rest
of stuff. Well, that thing that they retained that was
never tested, Dave, it's a cigarette bud. And so what
do we do well for those that have never smoked cigarettes,
if you've got a filtered cigarette, every time you put
(33:35):
the scene in your mouth, and you've got you know,
I don't know where they call it a micro knight,
the a filter or that's what they used to call
it back in the sixties. Uh, well micro knight, Mike
micro k not, what is it? My micro knight filter?
Cancer cancer sticks, another nail and coffin. You're transferring through
(33:58):
saliva your DNA into what amounts to almost like a sponge.
So yeah, it's rich. And the outer circumference of the
cigarette butt as well. You're wrapping your lips around it.
So if you've got saliva on your lips, that sit
(34:19):
in just your tongue or your teeth. If you've got
saliva on your lips, that's going to transfer to the
outer cylinder of this thing. And it was never tested.
And guess what they had this piece of evidence. They've
got this kid who has been released and put into
(34:42):
house arrest. My thought is that they've always suspected that
there was at least one other person involved in this
and they never followed up on it. Well, enter onto
the stage our friends at AUTHORM, and Dave I got
to tell I got to tell our friends the story
behind me picking this case. I saw the case and
(35:04):
it made no reference to AUTHRAM at all, and I'm thinking, Wow,
this is really a wacky case. Dave and I ought
to talk about this, and I made it through like
the first two thirds of the article, and then all
of a sudden, DNA solves pops up. And you know,
most of the cases that you and I talk about
(35:26):
with authorm are cases where we've got an unknown individual
and they're finally identified after see authorm has multiple utilities, Dave.
It's not just a matter of trying to discover the identity,
which to me is one of the most noble things
that can happen. But this utility that they have, this
(35:49):
patented methodology that David and Kristen Middleman have developed at AUTHRAM,
can help solve these cases as well. So if there
are peripheral actors there and they have something like a
like a cigarette button, I can only imagine a DNA
(36:09):
scientist pun intended here with salivating over this, you know,
because of how rich this is going to be and
what you can extract from it. And you take that
data and you plug it in to this forensic genetic
genealogy database. With these open so open sources that they
have access to, you're going to get a hit. And
(36:32):
they did in this case, Dave.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
And you know, when looking at this, Joe and you
mentioned them having the cigarette. But from the beginning, you know,
the only thing I can think of is that while
they did consider that they were probably more than one
person involved, but they get somewhat of an admission of
guilt without having to test a cigarette butt. They go
and get a conviction by a jury and a sentence.
(36:58):
I can see them not testing it, spending the money
to test it, because they've already got it. It's done.
We got the murderer, he's in prison. But the minute
he's out, the minute there's a problem. I'm a little concerned,
you know that there wasn't somebody that was yelling and screaming.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
Hey, look we got stuff to test.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
You know.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
I hate that it took this long for this guy
to get his name cleared. I hate that he had
police sitting on him at nineteen years old, and they
were not being the way they should have been. There
should have been somebody there Joe that said, hey, there's
a lawyer outside waiting for you to talk to you,
(37:37):
which is exactly what happened while they were grilling him.
They knew it, Yeah, they didn't tell it.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Well, I got to stop you there, man, I got
to stop you there because Okay, this is going to
be very disheartening for you to hear. Yeah, he's tethered
in his home still and guess what what, Yeah, he's
still tethered in his home. And come on, and the
author he's up there are going to be filing new
(38:02):
charges against him, against him, yes, against him, in addition
to the person that they believe is the purp in
this case, who for some reason, I think that the
local constabulary believes that there is a connection between Grondon
(38:25):
and this other subject that we're going to talk about.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
About, Chadwick. Yeah, Chadwick Mobley has now pleaded guilty.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
He has and he pleaded nolo contendre, which means it
is as good as saying I'm guilty. And by the way,
they you know, the family, the family of this young
woman were very found that very dissatisfying because he was
never if you plead nolo, they're not going to compel you,
(39:02):
apparently to admit to what you've done, and which is
something that I think is key, particularly in our society.
If you see that the evidence is so overwhelming and
you plead nol, it's not the same as saying I'm guilty,
because under those circumstances they can compel you to allocute,
(39:26):
at least on some level. But he was not compelled
to do that. So you've got this fellow who, by
the way, has essentially been on the run for many years.
If I'm not mistaken. He was actually tracked down in Montana,
(39:46):
which is where.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
When they watched him for a while.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Yeah, because they had the info and they were having
trouble getting anything from him. You know, that they could
test to see if his DNA did match, and they
finally did get it, but it took some time. And
once they did and as soon as they questioned him,
he bolted. You know, he knew, he knew what he had, well,
(40:11):
he knew what was going on.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Yeah, he knew what was going on, and I can
only imagine, you know, when if he's got counsel when
he begins to stare down these numbers that Authorm would
have generated, these astronomical numbers. Uh, they're gonna be looking
He's gonna be looking right down the barrel of this thing,
understanding that the chances that he's going to get off
on this are slim and none. So he just rolls
(40:35):
over and literally when there is no trial, he comes
in pleads nolo to this thing, and the judge hands
down a sentence on this guy, Dave of life in
prison without possibility of parole.
Speaker 3 (40:50):
You know, this case is ugly, It really is.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
At this point, I feel sick to my stomach for
the family of the victim here. You know, the one
thing you have left after you lose a loved one
is you have answers.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
You know you need answers. We need to know what
happened and.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Why there has to The why really just helps us.
I think doesn't mean we agree with it or like it,
but at least there was a reason. They don't have
a reason. They don't have an emission, They don't have
anything that allows them to go to sleep at night
saying I know what happened to my loved one and.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
Why I don't know that.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
I just know that her boyfriend got locked up and
now he's not locked up anymore. Another guy who actually
pled no contest is now in the joint, but they're not.
There is no you know, you and I don't use
the term closure because I don't believe it's a real terms. Yeah,
I think it is, and you know, if you guys disagree,
(41:51):
we understand. I understand that, but you know, I just
don't think there is. Sometimes there's an end, but even
that end is hollow.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
It's not achievable. It makes it you know, that term again,
you know, it gives the impression that everything's going to
be all right and that you will have closure, you
close that chapter of your life and you move on.
And that's just not it's not the way it works.
It's bad. It's bad wording. And you know, look, there
(42:17):
there's going to be a lasting, you know, impact of
this case. First off, can I tell you what really
disturbs me about this? Going back to Chadwick Shane Mobley
that has been arrested pled NOLO and has been convicted.
(42:39):
He was at the time, he was working as an
emt in Pontiac, Michigan. So there's that proximity. I think
what I'm still trying to understand is what is the connection,
what is the actual connection between mobilely growed and more
(43:03):
importantly to me, this poor young lady Andrea. I want
to know how all of those kind of triangulct together
and this you know, what would what would compel a
person to participate in this behavior like this that brings
about an end to a life. You know, he had
worked as an emt up there, so he he would
(43:26):
have had this idea of proximity to those events which occurred,
you know, like I mentioned earlier in this little this
little hamlet outside of Flint back over to the east.
And additionally, he had taken on a job Dave of
at this point in his life of being a long
(43:48):
haul trucker, so you know, when the investigation led to him,
he was going to try to dispose of anything that
might tie him back in his truck and went to
some efforts to try to, you know, destroy these things.
But the one thing that you can't destroy is your
(44:10):
DNA molecule that you're toting around with you. It doesn't matter,
you know, how many dirty towels you have in your
in your in your cab of your truck. It doesn't
matter if you've got food stuffs that are left behind.
It doesn't matter if you know you're shedding skin off
of your scalp and you wipe all that stuff up.
(44:30):
If that's even possible, that genetic code that you have
within you can still be paired up and matched with
that genetic code that was on that cigarette, and those
two things are blended together to give you a result,
or not blended together, but compared and that you know,
(44:51):
those numbers are, as I've said before, absolutely astronomical, and
they lead back to him. But again, this case is
going to require a lot more because this young man,
according to what I have been reading, is still going
to be recharged in this case. So it would seem
to me that they're going to do this for one
(45:13):
or two reasons. They're either going to say that, well,
there's other things that we know about this case that
you guys don't know, or maybe it's that they just
want to save face for having, you know, led to
a conviction of this man and put him away. And
still even though he's not in the joint, he's still limited.
(45:37):
He's not free to move about. But listen, now, that
this case, at least to this point, has been solved.
We have to keep in mind that it was solved
by the efforts of those authorities that felt that it
was in the best interest to dig deeper and try
to determine, you know, whose DNA was on on that
(46:00):
cigarette putt and of course that leads us back to Authorn.
It's important that any of you out here within the
sound of my voice that are interested in helping to
solve crimes, helping to solve mysteries, please do yourself a
favor and go visit dnasolves dot com and they have
got a myriad of cases that are out there, but
(46:24):
this is a self funded endeavor. They need money in
the pot in order to move these cases forward. And
anything you choose the case, maybe it's something the story
is compelling to you, or maybe it's in proximity to
where you live. You choose that case, you donate to
that case, and when they hit that trigger mechanism for
(46:47):
those funds, which is roughly seven thousand to seven seventy
five hundred bucks, that case will begin to move forward
at that point in time, and maybe, just maybe because
of your donation, someone will have answers, I'm Joseph Scott
Morgan and this is body Packs H
Quody bags with Joseph's gotten more. The worst job I
ever had was working in a grocery store. I hated it.
I hated every single day I went to work. And
I think probably one of the reasons I hated that
job so much is, first off, it was labor intensive.
(00:27):
I was very young, so they had me on the
front and bag. This is back when people actually bagged
groceries and took them out to your car for you.
I hated that, and I'm not a big people person,
so you know, it wasn't my thing back then. And
(00:48):
then I hated having to come in at three point
thirty in the morning to unload trucks. I didn't mind
so much doing the stocking. I just hated unloading the trucks.
I really did. And my god, the managers horrible, horrible.
But that was many decades ago, and here I am now.
(01:12):
But you know, I want to talk about a case
today that actually originates by a relationship that was formed
in a Kroger supermarket. I guess love bloomed, but unfortunately
it ended in homicide. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this
(01:38):
his body backs. Did you ever have stock shells? Dave
get Did you ever have one of those jobs?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Joe, I am one of those people who I had
an idea of what I wanted to do with my life,
what career path I wanted to be on, and then
found a way to begin doing it at the age
of fourteen.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
That was to be on radio.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
And I actually wanted to be on the radio doing
baseball games, calling them, you know, yeah on first and second,
no outs, bottom of the ninth, Joseph Scott Morgan steps in.
That's what I wanted to do and with yeah, because
I didn't think playing ball was going to work out
for me. So anyway, I did that. And I've actually
(02:23):
I said it many times. I've actually never had a
real job. I've worked in radio or in my entire life.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
So well, I got to tell you my goal when
I was a little boy, I wanted to be an archaeologist.
I always that was because I love history. I do
like I love digging in the dirt, which I got
to do, you know, helping helping forensic anthropologists throughout the years.
They called me a professional when I go out there,
(02:50):
cease being a death investigator and I became a shove leaner,
which means that if you're working around forensic anthropologist slash archaeologist,
you're there to do their scut work. And so I'd
be taking the shovelfuls of soul and putting it into
the sifter and.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
What you called it, a shovel leaner.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
A shovel leaner. Yeah, yeah, so okay, most of the
time that's applied to people from the dot, you know,
they're leaning on shovels. Yeah, I was. I was a
professional shovel leaner. But yeah, not too many roads lead
away from the local pigley wiggly to a career in archaeology.
So unfortunately I had I had to start, I had
to start out there. But it put gas in my car, right,
(03:30):
you know, so I am grateful for it, but it
was it was probably I preferred. I really did prefer
working in the moork to work in the grocery store. Yeah,
I really did.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I respect people that have those jumps, yeah, because I
know that it's like, I don't know what it's like
clocking in, and I'm thankful for that. I worked hard
to not clock in. I worked hard for that. But
I've admired people who do that, can go in and
do something like that day in and day out and
find satisfaction and and build from it. And in this case,
(04:02):
we're actually dealing with a young couple. We're talking late teens,
and they meet at a Kroger and they actually are
they're in this really lovey dovey stage, the kind where
people are really infatuated with one another and they're just
old enough where they're outside of that puppy love you
get when you're fourteen and fifteen before you can drive,
(04:24):
and you know, that's a different infatuation than it is
when you're nineteen twenty years old. You're out of high
school and you're in college or moving forward with your
adult life. And so when you're in that infatuated state,
it can kind of be sickening for those who are
not in that state.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Come on, you know it, just stop.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
That's where they were, and that's where this couple, Andrea
Ilberg and her boyfriend Casey Grondin, that was where they
were in their relationship. They were in that lovey dovey
I can't stand to be a minute. You know, where
they'd like go to sleep holding the phone kind of thing,
you know, right right on their pillow.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
That.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Yeah, So anyway, for those.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Well hey, wait, hang on now, I remember falling asleep
on the phone talking to Kim when we were in
that dating phase, and it you know, now she just says,
you know, I'll fill her elbow and she said, do
you hear anything I said? Are you awake? You know
(05:27):
it's gone from you know, that was so sweet to
you know, are you listening? So yeah, you know, it changes,
like you said, man, it changes over time and it
goes through phases like that. But I don't think this
relationship necessarily worked out the way. Maybe both individuals planned
for it too. They were kind of a strange And
(05:48):
by the way, this this actually happened a loath these
many years ago, to the east of Flint, Michigan, in
a town called Mayfield Township. Sounds very Mayberry like to me.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
You're actually talking about, like, man, what a week and
a half, two weeks before Thanksgiving twenty eleve and Andrea
is house sitting for her aunt and uncle. And you know,
that's one of those things that you know, people do
still do, I guess in certain areas, you know, And
she's there and she's got her boyfriend. Hey, you come on,
you know, she's like, what nineteen twenty years old and
(06:27):
he's nineteen, and hey, come on over and let's watch
a movie. You know, I got the house to myself,
come on right, right, Yeah, And that was their plan,
and so he's all excited about it. Casey is and
he gets a message from her saying, you know, no,
it's off. Don't want to do it. And it was like,
because he went to the door, I think, didn't He
(06:48):
go to the home and knocks on the door. She
doesn't answer. Her car's don't answer. Yeah, it doesn't answer
at all. Yeah, And he's like, I'm at the right address,
you know. And then he gets a text message from
her phone that says, I'm not going to do it.
We're not doing this to and so he left and
he was so disappointed he thought she was breaking up
with him that he said he went home to his
house and basically crawled in bedd and cried.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
For three days.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Now nineteen year old man saying he went home and
crawled in bed and cried for three days. Gotta be honest, Joe,
that's not something I would admit to.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
But you know, I don't. I don't think so maybe
for a couple of hours, I don't know, but not
for a protracted period of time like that. Plus all
that crying leaves you quite dehydrated as well. So I
just I don't think. I don't I don't see myself
doing that. And look, I know that you know, these events,
(07:43):
particularly when you're young, can be absolutely soul crushing. And
this is another thing. When you're that young, you are
not sophisticated enough to actually read the room. That you're
easily fooled. And I think a lot of it. And
I guess you don't necessarily have to be young to
have that happen. But when love is involved and you're vulnerable,
(08:08):
you know, you you know, your heart is like an
open target, so it can really, you know, it can
really impact you to a great degree. And of course,
you know, Dave, what do we always talk about? What
do we always talk about? Man? And I've preached this
over and over again relative to suspects, you're going to
(08:29):
be looking at those intimate partners, you know, in any
kind of case. So this young man, this young man,
you know that he's let everybody know that he was
involved in a relationship. And let me tell you one
more thing about the grocery store. All right, everybody at
the grocery store would have known that they were in
a relationship. They're not like keeping the secret. Families know
(08:53):
all of this sort of thing. But Dave, I got
to tell you this. This takes a dark turn really
really quickly.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
And well, okay, you know what she doesn't all right.
I want to go back to Casey for just a minute,
because he expected them to have a really nice date
night and it ends up being she's not there, her
car's not there at the house, and so in his mind,
she's breaking up with me because he got a text
an hour later, you know, and he goes and cries.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Well, when nobody can get up with her. The last
text from her phone was to him. He said, it
wasn't a.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Normal text from her, and that's kind of what sent
him in the direction he went.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
But the thing is is that.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
When nobody could get up with her the next day,
her dad was like, we got to find her. You know,
she's not answering her phone, she's not at the house,
and her car is not here either, so they began
looking for her right away. It wasn't where I'm trying
to think of how we go through the expression of
you got to wait a couple of days, you know,
before you really start looking. This was pretty quick because
(09:53):
she was twenty years old, and she was connected, and
she did have this boyfriend she was really infatuated with.
So when she's not where she's supposed to be, how sitting,
her car's not there, there was an immediate let's go
find her. Now, my first thought would have been go
to the house, the house that she's house sitting, and
go look through that house. But then if her car's
(10:14):
not there and the door is locked, are you going
to go in? I don't know, because apparently that wasn't
their first thought, they being those who decided to look
for her. But early the next day, her car was
found abandoned on a nearby road, and that's when when
they realized her how her car was abandoned, Then we
(10:34):
need to go look in the house, and that's what
they did, and they went inside the house and what
they found was the type of horrific thing you take
to your grave, you never forget the site that that
those and I don't know. That doesn't say exactly who
found her, Joe, and I'm wondering, I'm guessing it had
to be somebody very close to her.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yeah, and immediately, you know, you would call the police.
Can you imagine the horror that would run through your veins,
that would make the hair on the back of your
neck stand up, that would literally crush your soul to
see this beautiful young woman tied to a chair in
(11:20):
the basement of her aunt and uncle's home, having sustained
an execution style gunshot wound to the back of the head.
(11:44):
You know, I've never had anyone ask me this question. However,
I will give you the answer to the question that
no one has ever asked me. What would be my preference?
Endoor scene, outdoor scene, endoor scene. Every time for me,
it goes to this idea of containment, and you almost
(12:05):
have an indwelling barrier that's set up to a certain
degree that prevents loss of any kind of evidence. You
have to think, though, with this young lady, and from
what we know from this horrible homicide that took place
(12:26):
all the way back in twenty eleven, that there would
have been a significant amount of trace evidence at the scene,
either adjacent to her body or throughout the house. And
(12:48):
they've never really released how extensive her injuries were. We
do know that she was, and they've termed it as
being executed essentially after being tied down. Why would you,
I guess this is a big question. What would be
the purpose behind tying this young woman to a chair
(13:11):
if you just wanted to end her life? What would
drive a perpetrator to want to sit her down? The
only thing I can really think of, and I would
imagine that the police did as well, Dave, is they
would view this as perhaps torture of some kind or
(13:36):
a I don't know, an inquisition perhaps directed at her.
I'm going to control you. You will remain restrained in
this position. I want answers, and I want them now.
And if those answers are not given in a satisfactory manner,
we're going to blow your head off or we're going
(13:57):
to do grievous harm to you. And that's kind of
what this smacks of. So when you have someone, I mean,
let's fink my theory. Yeah, sure, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
I thought it was. He's done.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
The individual has done whatever they're going to do, and
they have tied her to this chair to say, look,
you're not going anywhere. I'm going to leave, okay, And
once I get done, you can try to get yourself
out and you can go. But I'm leaving now just
to calm her down. And then once she's calm and
realize that he's leaving, boom shot to the back of
(14:31):
the head.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah, and that's possible. I think one of the things
I'd like to know that we know that she's bound
to the chair, I'd really like to know if if
she was, if she was, you know, blindfolded anyway, you know, like,
(14:55):
for instance, if there was someone that if we go
with with your idea here that if there was someone
that she knew that was doing this, wouldn't they want
to blindfold her so that she wouldn't have any knowledge
of who they were, But that would imply that they
had taken her by surprise, you know, so that they
(15:18):
couldn't be identified if they were going to let her
go free, but she could still recognize voices as well.
And for whatever reason, someone was driven to commit a
homicide and it's not like she was being there shooting
her to wound her, Dave, this is a this is
a headshot, all right. So the intent there is to
(15:41):
end her life. There's no other way to really, you know,
explain that and contain down there in the basement. That
also goes to another point. I think, you know, for
those of us that have basements in our home, the
sound quality in the basement is not the same as
it is throughout the rest of the house. So if
(16:02):
you take someone into a basement, you're kind of sequestering
them to a location, you know, because people can shout
and scream, because you know, many times basements are at
least partially, if not totally, underground, So you're, you know,
you're kind of insulated from sound escaping. And if you
want to do anything down there involving torture, you can
(16:26):
because most of the people are not going to hear
it that are in a right now. If you're up
on the first floor or the second floor, that sound
has a real chance of traveling out. So would would
they have known about this? The perpetrator that showed up
to the house. And remember, if we're talking about intimates,
If we're talking about intimates, this is not her domicile.
(16:48):
This is actually the domicile of her aunt and uncle.
So how did the perpetrator know that the house even
had a basement in it? You see what I'm what
I'm saying a kind of familiarity, you know.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
On my word, No, I you know what, now, I
understand why this case got messed up because everything that
you're talking about, Joe, the different things you have to
expect in an investigation, are still question marks here because
(17:22):
you the only thing we know for sure is twenty
year old and Andrea Ilbert is dead, tied to a chair,
shot in the back of the head. That's all we know.
In the basement of the house, which was this somebody
who was familiar like her boyfriend, somebody who was invited
over there like her boyfriend, that maybe downstairs was where
(17:46):
they were going to have a you know, I don't
know their date, even though she was house sitting, so
being in the basement really doesn't matter.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
But maybe he's there.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
And I mean, I'm trying to think like you're saying,
because I can't make sense of it at all. I
mean at all, Joe, this is really confusing.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah, it truly is. And of course the first person
that the police are going to look at is going
to be this boyfriend. And you know, and once I'm
sure that once he starts spilling his guts about this,
and he starts talking about how he felt like he
was rejected, you know first, you know, right out of
(18:24):
right out of the gate. You know, they're looking at
this guy really really hard for this. They're wanting to know. Yeah,
they're they're wanting they're wanting to try to get as
much information from him as possible, and they're going to
be assessing the nature of the relationship. And just to
understand this, if you're doing a history with somebody like this,
you're going to take them back. You know, how did
(18:46):
you guys first meet? Well, we know that we've established
that they met at work. How long have you been
seeing one another? And suddenly the question has become progressively
more uncomfortable. You know, have you guys been having trouble?
Have have you gotten into an argument? Did the argument
(19:07):
is physical? Yeah? Recently recently?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, last night you guys got Yeah, you were supposed
to be over there watching a movie, having date night
and wait a minute, the text says no.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
So what do you think about that, buddy?
Speaker 1 (19:18):
I mean yeah, And it's an out and out rejection,
and so you're thinking, if this, if this kid has
any kind of of anger that's built up over this,
you know, what was it? We said early on Dave,
this plays back into it. He goes in, and he
begins to cry and cries for this long protracted period
of time by his own admission. Okay, and I know,
(19:38):
you know, you can make a light of it, but
if he's wounded, he's wounded emotionally over it. And so
in rejection, Amen, every every I don't know anybody that
hasn't been rejected before, and particularly it's a very powerful thing.
And so you know, the police see see these breadcrumbs
along the way, They're also going to want to know
(19:59):
where are you involved in a physical relationship with her?
And again, you know, talking about how things become progressively
more uncomfortable. Then they go out to all the peripheral people.
Did you you know here at the front, at the
front of the store where the cash wrests are, did
you folks that worked these cash wrestlers, you ever see
them get into a fight up here? Were they ever
(20:20):
angry at one another? Did any of that happen? Are
there any instances? And oh, one more thing, is it
okay for people to date that work here? Can they date?
You know? What's the policy about that? That sort of thing?
So you have to consider every bit of this. But
Dave I got to tell you when they work this case.
(20:44):
They worked this case and the boyfriend is identified as
the number one suspect in this thing. Man, he not
only was he identified, he was actually arrested. Yep, dude,
he was charged and convicted on.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
This carrogation video is rough.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah. Yeah, the you know, the police, the police as
they're going through this process are pressing him, pressing him, pressing.
And if you're young and not very worldly, uh, it
always amazes me that people that want to fight with
(21:30):
cops on the street to get into you know, these
verbal verbal contests with cops. You know that you can
go to there's a technique that's taught that's taught in
uh and you go. You don't get it necessarily when
(21:50):
you're going through the academy, but there's actually a course
that's taught and I remember it very well.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
It's called verbal.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Judo and it it talks about how to either de
escalate a situation or how to press the buttons of
an individual. It's kind of a rudimentary way, you know,
to do this, and you know, cops make their living
by doing this. You know, that's why attorneys say keep
(22:16):
your mouth shut, don't say anything because you're not as
you'll never be as good as the cops are. There
might be a few that are out there that can
go toe to toe with the police, but every time
you say something, you're adding more fuel to the fire.
That's why you know, every attorney that I know that's
a defense attorney is going to say, keep your mouth shut,
(22:36):
ask for your phone call, and don't agree to anything.
And unfortunately, in this case, this young man not only
did he buckle under the pressure, Oh Joe Dave, he
was convicted and they sent away to the state prison
for life.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Joe for life.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Kim all I could think of, and I wanted to
ask you this because you know what it looked like.
You know what it looks like to find somebody tied
to a chair with a gunshot in the back of
the head. This nineteen year old kid doesn't. Were the
detectives able to sit him down in that room and say,
(23:17):
do you think maybe when she shot you down, that
you might have blacked out and maybe you did harm
her and you don't remember it, but maybe it happened,
and just maybe you did go in there and see
something and that's caused you to forget all these horrible
things that you've done because they're telling this kid you
can go home. Just look, man, we just got to
(23:37):
get this and you're going to be able to go home.
And I will tell you this goes back to you
said lawyers say, don't talk. Here's why this kid you
said it already. Chart arrested, charged with murder at trial, convicted,
sentenced to life imprison Joseph Scott Morgan and this kid
they got him to admit. He wrote down that he
(24:01):
entered the house, saw Ilber's body, assumed she committed suicide,
and then moved doc gigs in the room to make
it look like she hadn't harmed herself. I got to
write that down, Nune.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Yeah, it makes no sense whatsoever. And yeah, you were
talking about applying pressure. You know in that narrative that
you're giving there are also physical things that can be
done where they're not necessarily striking you. But I'll give
you for instance. Okay, let's say one of the first
things that they ask you when you're in that interview
(24:34):
room is, hey, man, you want a bottle of water.
And people think that's very benign, But what they'll do
and they'll give you as much water as you want, okay,
And what happens when you drink water, well, particularly me
at this age, I'll tell you what happens when I
drink water. But at that particular time, you know in
(24:56):
his life, you know, he's he's ten, he's confused, he
knows that he's here, he's being questioned there. You know,
I don't know, not necessarily him, but there are these
instances where you're giving water. Yeah, look, and the people
that are doing the interview can see that you're becoming
(25:16):
more uncomfortable because you've got to go avoid You've got
to go to the bathroom. And it's almost like a
Columbo moment where they say, yeah, we're gonna let you
go to the bathroom, but wait one more thing. Let's
go back to this point in time. So all the
while that internal pressure is building up in your bladder.
That's one of the little tricks. So keep your mouth shut,
(25:37):
don't drink any water. So, you know, you begin to
think about this and think about, well, why in the
world would he admit to this, Why would he Was
it because the police pressured him into it, or or
was it because he actually did it? So day with
(26:14):
Kenneth Grondon who, by the way, has been convicted. Now
he's he's essentially, you know, taken off to state prison
where he is going he begins to serve a lifelong sentence,
no possibility of parole at all. He's going in, as
(26:36):
they say, he's going in for all day. All right, Well,
two years.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
Into evicted by a jury. You want to add that, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Yeah, yeah, it's not just suggestion. It's not just the police,
you know, and do the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Man and had a jury, they sat a jury, they
presented the case, the evidence they had came out and
this at the time I'm of the murder. He's nineteen
years old. A couple of years go by and the
man is convicted. Joe, He's convicted by a jury of
his peers, not just a sitting judge. And that means
(27:11):
something to me because this kid, he didn't do it.
We know that ahead of time. That's why we're doing
the story. But thank god, Joe that there were other
people who did not believe he was guilty because he
was able to appeal, and when they did look at
the information, they're like, wow, this, I think we might
(27:33):
have got this wrong. Somebody along the line got this wrong.
Because he sentenced in twenty sixteen and it's twenty eighteen
when everything starts to come together for him. But he's
been in jail for he's been in prison, man, I mean,
what's it like when you go to prison, Joe.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Yeah, I Ain, it's the county lock up. I'll put
it to you that way.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
It's five foot ten.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yeah, he is five foot ten. And listen. One of
the reasons, and this comes into play that we know
his height, Grindin's height, is the fact that a bit
of the information that was used in this case to
convict him was the fact that he was he being grinding,
(28:19):
was identified that as using the victim's credit card, and
also that they have him doing this. You've got these
experts that have come in and they look at this thing.
(28:42):
They say, look this, this person that you're saying is
at the you know, at the ATM with herst stolen card,
you know, withdrawing money. This person's like six one six two.
Grind is five ten. And what they determined was that
(29:04):
was that not only that, but also the police had
violated what's referred to as Bender's rule, which just thumbnail here,
which states that a suspect must be told when an
attorney has been retained. So it's at that point in
time that you know, all you must cease and desist
(29:25):
with what you're doing with the suspect that they have
legal counsel, they will be there too, you know, to
offer assistance, and so anything that comes after that notification
is inadmissible Dave. So you know, he could he could
have admitted to anything. But if you break that particular rule,
(29:46):
then all of that stuff is, any information gleaned, is
going to be non admissible, and that that's what happened.
And then you couple that with the videography evidence that
just doesn't marry up, you know, with Grondin because he's
kind of of a you know, he's kind of a
stocky guy. You know, you look at him, he's you know,
kind of muscled. The older photographs of him, you know,
(30:08):
he's kind of muscled up and that sort of thing.
And this actually led Dave to him being released from
prison and sent home and placed in house arrest. Now
they haven't overturned.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
It, but he was not free to do what he wanted.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
No, huh no. But they send him home. He's out
of the joint.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Right thankfully, thankfully. But Joe, now it goes back to
you've got physical evidence that's got to be present whenever
there is a shot to the back of the head.
And I want to go back to that scene because
wouldn't there have been some type of physical evidence left
behind by the killer And wouldn't that killer take something
(30:51):
with him or her? Would they not leave something behind
and take something with them? I mean, I cannot get
past this because you're really in close proximity to somebody, yes,
you know, to tie them to a chair and you know,
and then shoot them in the back of the head.
I'm just trying to figure out why, how is it
possible that we stopped investigating and went after this one
(31:14):
guy because he was the low hanging fruit.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Yeah, he was a low hanging fruit. And here's something
that's kind of fascinating to me. You collect, and Dave,
what I'm i about to tell you this type of
evidence is very intimate evidence. You go to the trouble
to work the scene down, and you know, you're the
aunt and uncle's basement where she was house sitting and
(31:39):
found of course executed. You collect evidence at the scene
that is intimate. And the reason I say intimate. It's
not in a sexual sense. It is an item that
you place in your mouth that DNA evidence can easily
(32:04):
be transferred to. There are tons of these cases out there,
and that evidence is that said evidence is collected at seeing,
it's taken to the police station, and it ain't never tested.
I'm always amazed in these cases. You know where things
(32:25):
can go untested. You know, you don't get me on
my soapbox about rape.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Kits, and you know, because of costs.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
I think some of its costs and some of it
is And here's the downside of being quote unquote thorough.
It seems there are certain detectives out there and crime
scene texts that want to take everything okay, and don't
think that, you know, being a death investigator, you know,
(32:55):
robs you of your humanity or a crimising tech or
a detective, because when you go out to scene and
you collect everything at the scene, what are you going
to do with it? Well, you don't have the budget
to test everything that's there. So you look at all
of the items that you've collected, what's gonna what's going
(33:15):
to have the highest problem outcome, what's going to be
the most benefit to us? And we'll retain the rest
of stuff. Well, that thing that they retained that was
never tested, Dave, it's a cigarette bud. And so what
do we do well for those that have never smoked cigarettes,
if you've got a filtered cigarette, every time you put
(33:35):
the scene in your mouth, and you've got you know,
I don't know where they call it a micro knight,
the a filter or that's what they used to call
it back in the sixties. Uh, well micro knight, Mike
micro k not, what is it? My micro knight filter?
Cancer cancer sticks, another nail and coffin. You're transferring through
(33:58):
saliva your DNA into what amounts to almost like a sponge.
So yeah, it's rich. And the outer circumference of the
cigarette butt as well. You're wrapping your lips around it.
So if you've got saliva on your lips, that sit
(34:19):
in just your tongue or your teeth. If you've got
saliva on your lips, that's going to transfer to the
outer cylinder of this thing. And it was never tested.
And guess what they had this piece of evidence. They've
got this kid who has been released and put into
(34:42):
house arrest. My thought is that they've always suspected that
there was at least one other person involved in this
and they never followed up on it. Well, enter onto
the stage our friends at AUTHORM, and Dave I got
to tell I got to tell our friends the story
behind me picking this case. I saw the case and
(35:04):
it made no reference to AUTHRAM at all, and I'm thinking, Wow,
this is really a wacky case. Dave and I ought
to talk about this, and I made it through like
the first two thirds of the article, and then all
of a sudden, DNA solves pops up. And you know,
most of the cases that you and I talk about
(35:26):
with authorm are cases where we've got an unknown individual
and they're finally identified after see authorm has multiple utilities, Dave.
It's not just a matter of trying to discover the identity,
which to me is one of the most noble things
that can happen. But this utility that they have, this
(35:49):
patented methodology that David and Kristen Middleman have developed at AUTHRAM,
can help solve these cases as well. So if there
are peripheral actors there and they have something like a
like a cigarette button, I can only imagine a DNA
(36:09):
scientist pun intended here with salivating over this, you know,
because of how rich this is going to be and
what you can extract from it. And you take that
data and you plug it in to this forensic genetic
genealogy database. With these open so open sources that they
have access to, you're going to get a hit. And
(36:32):
they did in this case, Dave.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
And you know, when looking at this, Joe and you
mentioned them having the cigarette. But from the beginning, you know,
the only thing I can think of is that while
they did consider that they were probably more than one
person involved, but they get somewhat of an admission of
guilt without having to test a cigarette butt. They go
and get a conviction by a jury and a sentence.
(36:58):
I can see them not testing it, spending the money
to test it, because they've already got it. It's done.
We got the murderer, he's in prison. But the minute
he's out, the minute there's a problem. I'm a little concerned,
you know that there wasn't somebody that was yelling and screaming.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
Hey, look we got stuff to test.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
You know.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
I hate that it took this long for this guy
to get his name cleared. I hate that he had
police sitting on him at nineteen years old, and they
were not being the way they should have been. There
should have been somebody there Joe that said, hey, there's
a lawyer outside waiting for you to talk to you,
(37:37):
which is exactly what happened while they were grilling him.
They knew it, Yeah, they didn't tell it.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Well, I got to stop you there, man, I got
to stop you there because Okay, this is going to
be very disheartening for you to hear. Yeah, he's tethered
in his home still and guess what what, Yeah, he's
still tethered in his home. And come on, and the
author he's up there are going to be filing new
(38:02):
charges against him, against him, yes, against him, in addition
to the person that they believe is the purp in
this case, who for some reason, I think that the
local constabulary believes that there is a connection between Grondon
(38:25):
and this other subject that we're going to talk about.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
About, Chadwick. Yeah, Chadwick Mobley has now pleaded guilty.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
He has and he pleaded nolo contendre, which means it
is as good as saying I'm guilty. And by the way,
they you know, the family, the family of this young
woman were very found that very dissatisfying because he was
never if you plead nolo, they're not going to compel you,
(39:02):
apparently to admit to what you've done, and which is
something that I think is key, particularly in our society.
If you see that the evidence is so overwhelming and
you plead nol, it's not the same as saying I'm guilty,
because under those circumstances they can compel you to allocute,
(39:26):
at least on some level. But he was not compelled
to do that. So you've got this fellow who, by
the way, has essentially been on the run for many years.
If I'm not mistaken. He was actually tracked down in Montana,
(39:46):
which is where.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
When they watched him for a while.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Yeah, because they had the info and they were having
trouble getting anything from him. You know, that they could
test to see if his DNA did match, and they
finally did get it, but it took some time. And
once they did and as soon as they questioned him,
he bolted. You know, he knew, he knew what he had, well,
(40:11):
he knew what was going on.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Yeah, he knew what was going on, and I can
only imagine, you know, when if he's got counsel when
he begins to stare down these numbers that Authorm would
have generated, these astronomical numbers. Uh, they're gonna be looking
He's gonna be looking right down the barrel of this thing,
understanding that the chances that he's going to get off
on this are slim and none. So he just rolls
(40:35):
over and literally when there is no trial, he comes
in pleads nolo to this thing, and the judge hands
down a sentence on this guy, Dave of life in
prison without possibility of parole.
Speaker 3 (40:50):
You know, this case is ugly, It really is.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
At this point, I feel sick to my stomach for
the family of the victim here. You know, the one
thing you have left after you lose a loved one
is you have answers.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
You know you need answers. We need to know what
happened and.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Why there has to The why really just helps us.
I think doesn't mean we agree with it or like it,
but at least there was a reason. They don't have
a reason. They don't have an emission, They don't have
anything that allows them to go to sleep at night
saying I know what happened to my loved one and.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
Why I don't know that.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
I just know that her boyfriend got locked up and
now he's not locked up anymore. Another guy who actually
pled no contest is now in the joint, but they're not.
There is no you know, you and I don't use
the term closure because I don't believe it's a real terms. Yeah,
I think it is, and you know, if you guys disagree,
(41:51):
we understand. I understand that, but you know, I just
don't think there is. Sometimes there's an end, but even
that end is hollow.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
It's not achievable. It makes it you know, that term again,
you know, it gives the impression that everything's going to
be all right and that you will have closure, you
close that chapter of your life and you move on.
And that's just not it's not the way it works.
It's bad. It's bad wording. And you know, look, there
(42:17):
there's going to be a lasting, you know, impact of
this case. First off, can I tell you what really
disturbs me about this? Going back to Chadwick Shane Mobley
that has been arrested pled NOLO and has been convicted.
(42:39):
He was at the time, he was working as an
emt in Pontiac, Michigan. So there's that proximity. I think
what I'm still trying to understand is what is the connection,
what is the actual connection between mobilely growed and more
(43:03):
importantly to me, this poor young lady Andrea. I want
to know how all of those kind of triangulct together
and this you know, what would what would compel a
person to participate in this behavior like this that brings
about an end to a life. You know, he had
worked as an emt up there, so he he would
(43:26):
have had this idea of proximity to those events which occurred,
you know, like I mentioned earlier in this little this
little hamlet outside of Flint back over to the east.
And additionally, he had taken on a job Dave of
at this point in his life of being a long
(43:48):
haul trucker, so you know, when the investigation led to him,
he was going to try to dispose of anything that
might tie him back in his truck and went to
some efforts to try to, you know, destroy these things.
But the one thing that you can't destroy is your
(44:10):
DNA molecule that you're toting around with you. It doesn't matter,
you know, how many dirty towels you have in your
in your in your cab of your truck. It doesn't
matter if you've got food stuffs that are left behind.
It doesn't matter if you know you're shedding skin off
of your scalp and you wipe all that stuff up.
(44:30):
If that's even possible, that genetic code that you have
within you can still be paired up and matched with
that genetic code that was on that cigarette, and those
two things are blended together to give you a result,
or not blended together, but compared and that you know,
(44:51):
those numbers are, as I've said before, absolutely astronomical, and
they lead back to him. But again, this case is
going to require a lot more because this young man,
according to what I have been reading, is still going
to be recharged in this case. So it would seem
to me that they're going to do this for one
(45:13):
or two reasons. They're either going to say that, well,
there's other things that we know about this case that
you guys don't know, or maybe it's that they just
want to save face for having, you know, led to
a conviction of this man and put him away. And
still even though he's not in the joint, he's still limited.
(45:37):
He's not free to move about. But listen, now, that
this case, at least to this point, has been solved.
We have to keep in mind that it was solved
by the efforts of those authorities that felt that it
was in the best interest to dig deeper and try
to determine, you know, whose DNA was on on that
(46:00):
cigarette putt and of course that leads us back to Authorn.
It's important that any of you out here within the
sound of my voice that are interested in helping to
solve crimes, helping to solve mysteries, please do yourself a
favor and go visit dnasolves dot com and they have
got a myriad of cases that are out there, but
(46:24):
this is a self funded endeavor. They need money in
the pot in order to move these cases forward. And
anything you choose the case, maybe it's something the story
is compelling to you, or maybe it's in proximity to
where you live. You choose that case, you donate to
that case, and when they hit that trigger mechanism for
(46:47):
those funds, which is roughly seven thousand to seven seventy
five hundred bucks, that case will begin to move forward
at that point in time, and maybe, just maybe because
of your donation, someone will have answers, I'm Joseph Scott
Morgan and this is body Packs H
Host
Joseph Scott Morgan
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