November 23, 2022 • 51 mins
Maggie Freleng, Pulitzer prize winning host of Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freleng sits down for a Q&A with Gilbert King and Kelsey Decker from the new podcast Bone Valley. Listen in as Gilbert and Kelsey share with Maggie the answers to many questions from their listeners and reveal some of the details that went into creating one of the finest podcasts of the year.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello, y'all.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
I'm Maggie Freeling, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and the host
of Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling, And this is a
bonus episode of Bone Valley. So I'm here with Gilbert
King and Kelsey Decker and I'm going to ask them
some of my questions, some of your questions all about
the behind the scenes of Bone Valley. So, Gilbert and Kelsey.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Hello, Hey, Maggie, how you doing.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
I'm good. How are y'all good?
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Really good?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
So one of my first questions is, as someone who
has done projects like this, it takes a lot of time.
But you guys started working on this quite a while ago.
So can you tell me when you started working on
this how much time you spent in Florida?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
What was that like?
Speaker 4 (00:44):
Yeah, I'll say it took us over four years to
do this. So you know, obviously we worked through COVID
and so that that sort of slowed us down. There
were a few things that slowed us down. We were
trying to reach Jeremy Scott and he was constantly being
put in disciplinary confinement, and then with COVID, so there
we were a lot of waiting around as well. But
I would say we kept ourselves pretty busy with this.
(01:04):
We had the extra time. We were a lot of waiting,
so we just tried to do more and more research
and just keep digging. And so that was our experience.
Why it took so long.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Right, and because I remember at one point you said like, oh,
this is a letter, you know, from our first letter
to Jeremy, and like, what was it twenty nineteen you
wrote him or twenty eighteen.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Yeah, I think it was like I think the first
time we wrote him was like early twenty twenty, like
during the pandemic, and he didn't respond for seven months,
and I think we sent out a bunch of letters
finally just started writing back to us.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
So and you guys moved to Florida.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
Go ahead, Calsey, you can tell about the big movie
with your pickup truck.
Speaker 5 (01:38):
Yeah, yeah, I mean we moved to Florida for about
three months. So it was the summer of twenty nineteen. Yeah,
I have, yeah, summer of twenty nineteen, so we were
there for a few months. We are kind of like
home base. There was Saint Petersburg. We weren't entirely sure.
We wanted to spend all of our time in like,
(02:00):
but we were making the drive back and forth quite
a bit. But yeah, it was it was an interesting
start to like the real reporting in the case, just
you know, being down there in the midst of it.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
So it's kind of important to do that, you know,
when I did my podcast Murder and Alliance, which was
investigating a wrongful conviction. I pretty much lived in Ohio
for a good year. Did locals know you guys?
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Like, what was that?
Speaker 6 (02:26):
Like?
Speaker 4 (02:27):
Yeah, we would run into the same people our home
base a lot of times. We would drive It was
about forty five minutes from Saint Pete to Lakeland, and
our home base became the Lakeland Public Library, and they
actually gave us a room in there that we would
use for interviews. So it worked out really well. And
there's also some a lot of research to do in
Lakeland from you know, historical research that was right in
the library. But I remember that as just being a
(02:49):
lot of fun and every morning, like just getting up
and you know, drinking coffee on the way, going across
the Skyway bridge and just driving to Lakeland and just
like doing prep in the car for the interview is
that we have to do that day and I just
it was really a fun like commute to actually have
to do that, and I think, yeah, we started running
into a lot of people that we'd known. There was
(03:09):
one point, I don't know if you remember this Kelsey,
where I was kind of not paying attention and I
almost ran over a guy around one of those lakes,
and he was like, I just spoke. I did a
talk down there, some legal talk, and we made eye
contact and I knew I know him, and I sent
him a little quick email. I said, hey, sorry, I
think I just tried to run you over, and he
(03:30):
was like, I knew that was you.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Don't worry about it.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
So listeners do want to know, though, if Gilbert, your
familiarity with Florida from your other book, Devil and the Grove, if.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Any of those connections helped you with this case.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
Yeah, I would. I would definitely say they did. You know,
there's a lot of people like I did two books
down there, so I've spent about fifteen years down there
in this part of central Florida, and so.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
A lot of people know me.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
And I think there's like a benefit to having some connections,
Like you know, sometimes we'll be writing something and trying
to figure out something in terms of like a Supreme
Court Florida's Supreme Court decision, and I'm not really entirely
sure what the you know, what to make of the decision,
And like there are I'm friendly with some of the
Florida Supreme Court justices, so I can actually call them
up and say, hey, can you explain your opinion in
(04:18):
that particular case. And so there's a lot of that
local stuff that I think really paid off. And same
with just having going down there and speaking all the time,
I run into a lot of people that I know,
and they seem more eager to help me.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
I think, yeah, yeah, absolutely So Kelsey, this was all
really new to you. You were pretty much just out
of college and now you're eyeballs deep in a really
crazy wrongful conviction case, murder case, another murder case.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
What was all this like for you?
Speaker 7 (04:50):
You know, I just kind of had to take it
a day at a time sometimes because yeah, every phase
of this project was something just entirely new for me.
Speaker 5 (05:05):
But you know, having having Gilbert there there was always support. Yeah,
he was my cheerleader every step of the way. So yeah,
I mean it was an amazing experience. Like first job.
I think this is you know, maybe kind of a
dream job for a lot of people, and here I am,
like right out of college, just diving right into it.
(05:27):
So I felt very lucky in a lot of ways.
But there were definitely moments where I felt I was
in a little over my head having to kind of
learn some of the stuff as I went along. But
here I am, I made it, and I am, you know,
really happy I've been able to see it through to
the end. And yeah, I mean I just care so
(05:49):
much about the story. It was something I just you know,
was very motivated to continue learning and committing to and
putting everything I could into it.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
So how did your relationship the two of you? How
did it change over the course of four years? I
mean that's a long time. And Kelsey, again, like you
were very new, so I'm sure by the end you
were a rock star investigator.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
But so how did it all change?
Speaker 5 (06:15):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (06:16):
Well, I think, you know, part of the thing with
this is like I have a lot of researchers and
they're based in New York, and they're actually guys who
are older than me, and like it just for them
to just upend themselves and move down to Florida was
just not going to happen for them. You know, they
had families, they have commitments, and and so you really
need somebody who has the flexibility to do something like this,
and so I think Kelsey came in as a researcher.
(06:38):
Basically I had a couple different projects going, and I
remember specifically I was trying to decide, like there was
a TV thing, a new book, and I was trying
to prioritize, and then Leo's case came across my desk
and Kelsey started looking into it, and I remember there
was a moment I said, well, Kelsey, like what what
do you think I should prioritize what project? And I
remember her specifically saying like, well, it looks like there's
(07:01):
an innocent man in prison that one. And it just
like this moment of clarity, like yeah, of course we
have to do that one. And so that was really
an inspiration to get going. And you know, Kelsey started
as a researcher, but because like we decided to pivot
to a podcast while we were down there, you know,
she had to learn all the audio recording and sort
of was all self taught, and so like she's moving
(07:23):
through this going from researcher to you know, audio recordists
to producer and all these different skills that she had
to learn for this job. So I really need somebody
flexible in, somebody who's not afraid of learning.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
And she was it.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Wow, would you agree with all that, Kelsey?
Speaker 5 (07:40):
I guess, so yeah, I didn't have much to lose
with upending my entire life and going down to Florida
and learning everything on the job.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Well, were you nervous like to go down just like
you and Gilbert that he's a terrifying human, but like
you know, I'm you didn't know him that well, Like,
was that weird to start off, just like the two of.
Speaker 5 (07:59):
You, Yeah, it was. It was a little weird, but
we fell into like a rhythm pretty quickly. I mean
by that time, we'd already we were already both like
very invested in this case and this story. So yeah,
I mean we we were so obsessed with it at
that point. We were talking about it constantly, and so
(08:22):
like it felt pretty natural after a little time passed.
And I'm actually I was born in Florida, so also,
like the landscape there was kind of familiar to me.
I have some family down there, so there was like
a little bit of familiarity in that aspect as well.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Well, that's what I was going to ask you. So
where were you both like coming from? You were coming
from New York, Gilbert, is that are you from New York?
Speaker 4 (08:48):
Yeah, I'm originally from upstate New York, but I've been
in I've been in New York for the last thirty
something years, so yeah, I'm a New Yorker. But yeah,
you know, and I'm really used to Florida. I think
there was some you know, weird things of like when
we were like basically roommates for a couple months, and
like I think Kelsey was like, am I supposed to cook?
Is that part of my chob realize like he doesn't cook.
(09:09):
He just eats out all the time.
Speaker 5 (09:11):
It's true.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Yeah New York, Yeah exactly, but but yeah, I just
it was it was it was an adjustment, especially but
once we built into the schedule and like we'd stay home,
do all the phone calls, do all the prep work there,
and then just go out in the field in Lakeland,
And it was really nice to be able to get
away from Polk County and just be working outside of
Polk county because I don't really like working in the
(09:34):
counties that, you know, because then people start snooping around
and they know where you are, and you see them
around and they know where you are. I didn't want
to deal with.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
That, so right, right, So so getting to the case,
did you go into this skeptical of his innocence? I mean,
I know this came across your desk from a very
reputable person, a former judge. You know, honestly, did you
go into it thinking, Okay, this is an innocent man
or how did you guys go into this?
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Were you ever skeptical of his innocence?
Speaker 4 (10:05):
I'm always skeptical, and even though this came to me
through a judge, I just it's not that I don't
trust anybody, but I just have to like know for
myself that I'm going into something that I know enough
about it. And so there were months that went by
where it was just research, and you know, it did
help that Judge Cup was vouching for him. But I
(10:25):
think I try to put a timetable on this. I
think it was, you know, at least weeks before I said,
it really looks like this guy could really be innocent,
and you know, from reading from the transcript, it was
pretty obvious to me that he was not rightfully convicted.
But once we got down there and met Leo and
started doing our own real deep research on it, it
(10:47):
was pretty clear.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
To us that we were dealing with an innocent man.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Kelsey, would you agree.
Speaker 5 (10:51):
With that, Yeah, definitely. I mean I think before we
met Leo for the very first time, we tried to
read everything we could get our hands, and so we
had a really good understanding of yeah, of like how
the trial went, what evidence was there, but you know,
you never you never really know, like everything doesn't come
(11:12):
out in court. He could be wrongfully convicted and not
necessarily be innocent. I think there is a little bit
of a distinction there.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Yeah, go distinction then for listeners.
Speaker 5 (11:23):
Sure, yeah, Gilbert might be better at explaining this. This
is a distinction. Judge Scott Cupp drew, you know, the
very first time I met him, and probably the first
time Gilbert spoke to him as well, that you know,
stuff can go wrong at trial, like prosecutors can do
shady things, and it can somebody can be convicted on
(11:47):
bad evidence or I don't know, Yeah, I mean, things
can go wrong. But maybe they actually did do the crime,
or maybe they had some knowledge of it or something
like that. This in Leo's case, he wasn't there. He
didn't do it, he didn't know anything about it, which
I think is where at least Judge Scott cup would
(12:08):
draw the line it like, you know, he's innocent, he
didn't know anything about it, he wasn't there. But yeah,
so we had all of that, all of the documentation,
that information and going into meet Leo, and then I think,
you know, that first meeting, after hearing him speak, that
kind of really solidified things for us that it was like,
(12:29):
it was really hard for us to kind of wrap
our head around how he could be guilty after that
first meeting.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
So, yeah, that's a really good point. And I think
sometimes you can get to a point where the prosecutor
just doesn't prove his case beyond a reasonable doubt, but
you know, a person can still be guilty. And so
that was one of the things that I was trying
to always consider. But I think what made this case
really interesting is you have this other person involved in
this who is actually confessed to the murder, and so
(13:01):
the investigation starts to go to him too, and I
remember just specifically having a thought like if Leo, if
I ever catch him lying to me, or if he
was trying to mislead me or being really not transparent
about certain things, that's going to lead to more skepticism.
And I just to devote this much time and energy
to a case that could fall apart on me. You know,
(13:23):
I think back on the NAACP and when they were
doing these cases in the forties and fifties, they couldn't
afford a single loss. So when they were going down
there and defending innocent people, they had to make sure
that that person was innocent because a loss would be
too damaging. And you certainly don't want that coming back
on us. But you know, once we were aware of
who Jeremy Scott was and we started investigating him, it
(13:44):
became not only a problem, you know, a situation where
Leo's not only innocent, but it's this guy. This guy
did it, And that was what was really intriguing to us.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
I'm Maggie Freeling checking in with Gilbert King and Kelsey
Decker from Bone Valley and we will be right back.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Hi.
Speaker 6 (14:03):
I'm Jason Flamm, CEO and founder of Lava for Good.
Podcasts Home to Bone Valley, Wrongful Conviction, The War on Drugs,
and many other great podcasts. Today, we're asking you, our listeners,
to take part in a survey. Your feedback is going
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(14:26):
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Speaker 4 (14:37):
Bone Valley is sponsored by Stand Together. Stand Together is
a philanthropic community that partners with America's boldest change makers
to tackle the root causes of our country's biggest problems,
including the broken criminal justice system. Christina Dent is one
of many entrepreneurs partnering with Stand Together to end the
War on drugs, the underlying cause of many problems such
(15:00):
as overincarceration and the criminalization of addiction in communities.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Across the country.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
As a foster mom, Christina came into contact with the
War on drugs when she saw how it was ripping
apart the family she worked with. She witnessed how kids
were affected and how mothers wanted something better for their families,
but didn't have the tools to get there themselves. Christina
Dent started a nonprofit called End It for Good because
(15:27):
she knew there was a better solution to help these families.
She's working to end the War on Drugs in Mississippi
and build consensus around the state to help families struggling
with substance abuse problems find a different path forward than
the one they've been given. Stand Together has many more
stories like this one, as it partners with thousands of
(15:49):
change makers who were driving solutions in education, health care, poverty,
and the criminal justice system. To learn more about the
War on drugs, listen to the War on Drug Podcast
on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
One of the more powerful moments for a lot of
listeners was in chapter two when you go to the
evidence room together.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
What was that like and why was that so emotional?
Particularly for you? Kelsey?
Speaker 5 (16:17):
Yeah, So, I think by the time we went and
viewed those photos, we'd already been down in Florida for
a couple months. We'd spoken to Leo a number of times,
we'd spoken to you know, a lot of the people
you hear in the podcast already. So you know, by
(16:38):
that point, I was pretty deep into the story, and
you know, I felt like I did have kind of
a sense of who Michelle was, and you know she
by that point, you know, she really felt like somebody
I knew to some degree, and I think just going there,
(17:00):
like I knew some of what we were going to
be seeing, but I don't know, it's it's just it's
hard to be prepared for, you know, actually seeing the
violence and yeah, I don't know, just the the trauma
(17:25):
and the violence of all of it. Just really the brutality.
It just I don't know, it really hit.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Me, the brutality of it.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
And there's just also something about, you know, going through
and having this lead up to the evidence. They showing
us all the physical evidence that the plywood that's resting
on her body, we're seeing the downy bottle that was
smeared with blood, and then you start seeing clothing to clothing. Yeah,
that starts when you start seeing all the bloodstains on
that and the and the tears and the rips from
(17:56):
the knife, and then you know, the finally they bring
out the pictures from the autopsy, and you know, it's
just you feel like you've seen pictures of her. Now,
you've talked to her family members, You've talked to Leo,
you talk to Michelle's brother, and it's just hard to
get that out of your head. And I think, you know,
we're always doing debriefings and just keeping the recorder going,
(18:18):
and I think just we got back to the car
and like Kelsey made it through all of that, the
whole evidence room, but I think it's just like sort
of snuck up on her and hit her. I don't know,
but you held off through the whole through the whole
evidence room, but it was just you know, you got
away from it and that's where it hit you, I guess.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
But I think sometimes it's the processing, you know, like
I tell our producers, like when I'm doing these interviews,
you know as a journalist, Gilbert and Kelsey, now you'll
know too, like you just sometimes have this wall up
to get through it. And then it's after the fact
when I go back and i'm transcribing and I'm listening
to the interview that I'm like, oh, now I'm processing it,
and it's really hitting what was said or what you're
(18:57):
looking at.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
Definitely, that's a really good point That happens to me
a lot too, And I'm sort of, you know, you're
in the moment, but you're asking questions, you're thinking of
things to ask, you're trying to get into the flow
of the interview, and you're in a different space, and
then you go back and listen to it. We had
the same experience with Jeremy just going back and listening
to it. It just it sounded even more powerful than
it did when we were there in person, just hearing
(19:18):
his voice crack and the pain and torture that he
was feeling. It almost like flew by me a little
bit while we were in the room.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
But boy, well sometimes it does.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
And that's like for listeners to know, Like when you're
in that room, you're really like, well, I got to
get this question, and is my tape recorder working? Like
it is very hard to do eighty thousand things and
focus on the interview and process it all at once.
So yeah, definitely what listeners are hearing is very crafted,
for sure.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
Yeah, And you know, we did so much prep for
that in that interview, just by the way, you know,
and it was I think it was clearly the best
interview we've ever done. Like it was the last one
we did, basically, but it was the best one. I
think we were so prepared for and we were just
working off each other and he was being so responsive
to both of us. It was a really incredible thing
(20:07):
to go back and listen to that and think, Wow,
I cannot believe we got all that out of them.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Are you still in touch with Jeremy?
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Yeah, he's really difficult to reach again. He wrote me
a letter. It was a couple of months ago. I
hadn't heard from him a long time. It was a
really short message and he said, you know, dear mister King,
I don't hold a grudge against you for doing this story.
I wish you the best, but the monster in me
is coming out and I'm going to be locked up
for a long time.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
And I was like, what is this?
Speaker 4 (20:34):
You know, this was a short note that I got
from him and then found out like a couple days
later he was involved in some kind of altercation with
a weapon and he got moved to a different prison
and put in solitary confinement. Don't really know the details
of it, but he's locked up for a long time,
so I don't know, you know, that's kind of a
life he's led in prison. It's extraordinarily violent, extraordinarily impulsive,
(20:56):
he gets moved around constantly, there's psychiatric issues.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
But I do try to stay in touch with him.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
And we just got another letter from him last week
and so he was writing again. So I'm going to
stay in touch with him. I think I'm the only
one who's writing to him.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Well, let me ask you about that, because I'm sure
there's a lot of listeners who are going to go,
why he's a violent, horrible, murderous person.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Why stay in touch with him?
Speaker 4 (21:22):
You know, I don't know a really great answer to that,
other than he is a human being, and he exposed
part of himself and it's you know, really came clean
about the nightmares that he has and the punishment that
he's feeling in the torture he's having. And I do
believe that he's trying to help himself by clearing his
conscience of this. And also I think he's trying to
(21:43):
help Leo. And I just see that as something admirable,
and Leo is thankful for it. And basically we follow
Leo's lead on a lot of these kind of moral
and ethical decisions.
Speaker 5 (21:52):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's definitely something I care about,
Like I don't I do want to stay in touch
with Jeremy, I know, like I never want to downplay
all of the harm he's caused. But I feel for
Jeremy too, like he's he's had it really rough, he
(22:12):
really never had a chance in life, and as much
harm as he's caused, I still feel like, I don't know,
he deserves a little compassion, and I you know what, Yeah,
I agree with Gilbert. He's trying to tell the truth,
I think, and I think he's genuine and he's remorseful,
(22:34):
and I don't know, I want him to know that
that's not going unnoticed. Like I want him to know
that he's doing a good thing and he's doing the
right thing, and he should be proud of that.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
I think, you know, that's probably why all of us
are on this network, because not only are we journalists,
but we're also humans and we recognize is the humanity
in people. And I think all of us would agree
that nobody is defined by the worst day of their life.
And I think, you know, I think that's really beautiful
that you guys put in Jeremy's story and took so
(23:13):
much care to show that he was once a kid
and you know, he became a product of his environment,
which is really, really tragic, and I really appreciate you
guys putting that in there.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
Yeah, and I think you know, he's taken responsibility for
his acts. He's confessed to all the murders he's committed.
He knows he's not ever getting out of prison. He
really shouldn't get out of prison. He's extraordinarily violent and impulsive.
But you know, it doesn't mean we still can't care
for him and wish for him the best in the
rest of his days. And the fact that he has
nobody to talk to, and you know, I'm the only
(23:48):
one he's writing to. You know, that comes with some
kind of responsibility. You know, I'm I don't want to
be his best friend, but I do want to be
there and talk to him and listen to him, and
you know, who knows what else he'll say.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Sure, speaking of Probably one of the craziest things besides
the actual killer confessing to the murder that someone else
is in prison for, is that you come across another
murder while investigating Michelle's murder. Where is that investigation at will?
Anyone Jeremy ever be prosecuted for that.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
You know, this is maddening to me because we went
several times to the Ossiola County Sheriff's office with our
evidence and with our letters where Jeremy started taking responsibility
for killing this cab driver, Joseph Lavere. It wasn't just
his confession. We had other evidence that we put together,
stuff that didn't even make it into the podcast because
you know, we didn't really feel the need to expand
(24:43):
on this forever after he confessed. But we've brought it
in a couple times. We brought it into the State
Attorney's office, and they basically have just refused to investigate it,
which I just find flabbergasting. Actually, it's clear evidence they
have a confession, and they basically doubled down in their
response by saying that we believe that we prosecuted the
(25:07):
right guy in dan Odie, but he wasn't convicted by
the jury, but we still think he's the murderer. And
you know, for me, that's annoying because these prosecutors are
always talking about finality and the justice system. You got
to respect the jury's verdict, but here they are smearing
a man who's been quitted and calling him a murderer
because it doesn't fit their narrative.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
I don't know why they're.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
Not investigating it. It's just it's beyond me to understand
why they're doing that.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Have you talked to Joseph Laver's family.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
You know, that's been a really tricky thing. We've tried
tracking him down. I've sent messages. They're scattered all over.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
It was a broken family.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
Joseph had gotten divorced about a year before he was murdered,
and so the family just kind of scattered. He had
a young son at the time, who's maybe one or
two years old, and tried to find him, but he's
locked away in jail as well, and they just haven't
been able to reach him. So we haven't had any
luck trying to get Lavera's family, and there's some other
reporters who have tried too and have not been able
(26:04):
to reach him. But that's definitely something we're going to
continue to pursue because I don't believe justice has been
served in that case.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
So, Kelsey, something listeners want to know about is you
were always asking Gilbert about his feelings. Why did you
do that? Was that just instinctual, like what was up
with asking Gilbert about us feeling?
Speaker 5 (26:24):
Yeah, I suppose it was kind of instinctual, like, you know,
I had a feeling that we were there on the ground,
we were doing the work, and you know, in some
ways the listener is going to look to us to
kind of interpret what's going on and what we're seeing
and finding out, and some of that is sharing what
(26:47):
we're feeling and how we're processing it. And yeah, you know,
Gilbert started to get the hang of it. You know,
it didn't come incredibly natural for him, but but we
made some progress there, I think, And yeah, it was
it was a learning curve.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Well, yeah, I mean I imagine Gilbert and your other reporting.
No one's usually putting a mic in your face and saying,
how do you feel about this?
Speaker 3 (27:14):
No?
Speaker 4 (27:14):
I hate You know, there's that line in that Departed
where they say where talking about Freud says that the
Irish or immune.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
To therapy, it just doesn't work on the Irish.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
That's who I feel is like, what are you asking
me my feelings for?
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Who cares?
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Yeah, it's it's an awkward thing, and you know, there's
also a lot of compartmentalization that I tried to do
in this kind of stuff, Like, if you get really
emotional and thinking about the humanity and the pain and
all these waves of violence in the story, it can
really kind of paralyze you. And so I always kind
of put that stuff in the back and just try
to be in the moment with this stuff. And so
(27:48):
I think it was kind of funny when Kelsey's asking
me these questions about my feelings and I'm just you know,
doing logistical stuff and just yeah, I didn't really ever
get the hang of it. Just awful at those kind
of stuff.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Well, it's funny because listeners seem to think you loved
answering and talking about your feelings, so surprise listeners who
did not. So so people love Bone Valley and it's
been my favorite podcast of the year. Why do you
think so many people are responding to Bone Valley? You know,
(28:23):
there's a million podcasts out there about cases, murders, wrongful convictions.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Why are people resonating with Bone Valley.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
You know, I'll just take a quick stab at it,
but I think it comes back to the work you
did with Suave when it has heart.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Suave has heart, that story has a lot of heart.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
And I think you know that was in our heads too,
Like we wanted to tell a story with heart, and
we want it to be you know, emotional, not just
a true crime like procedural.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
We wanted you to care about the people.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
And I think because we spent so much time with
our subjects and got to know them so well and
they were so comfortable talking, that you begin to care
about people like Chrissy, not just Leo, but just people
in the story. And I don't know, I just think
there's a human and emotional connection to this story that
felt real while we were working on it the whole time.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Well, and that goes back to you know, the whole
being compassionate to Jeremy. You know, if you had just
treated him like a subject and not a human, I
highly doubt we would be where we are with any
of the information you got from him.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Yeah, I think that's true.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
And I think, you know, like it's just I don't
think there's much interesting in black and white good versus evil.
There's a lot of those gray areas, and you know,
Leo has his own gray areas, right, It's really in
the beginning, it's really hard to feel sympathetic for him.
When you hear all this, you know, bad character evidence
coming in and he's talking about, you know, his relationship
with Michelle. It's not a perfect relationship. They're a young couple,
(29:48):
they have their issues. It gets a little volatile at times.
So Leo's not like the fuzzy bunny of wrongful convictions
and Jeremy. You know, Leo doesn't think Jeremy's the monster
he was looking for. And I think that's what really
makes it interesting.
Speaker 5 (30:00):
M h.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
How do you how do you think, you know, how
does Leo feel about Jeremy now today.
Speaker 6 (30:08):
Leo is.
Speaker 5 (30:11):
I think Leo is very grateful that Jeremy is telling
the truth and that Jeremy is trying to do what
he can to correct this injustice. And I think, you know, Leo,
(30:32):
Leo cares about Jeremy as another human being. I think,
you know, kind of like us. Leo sees Jeremy as
somebody who who deserves respect for being a human. And
you know, despite all of the terrible things he's done,
(30:54):
and I know that Leo still prais for Jeremy and
thinks about Jeremy, And yeah, I don't know, I don't
know what else to add to that.
Speaker 4 (31:07):
Yeah, and I think it's just a testament to Leo's
character and you know who he is as a person.
You know, in the prison, he's like extraordinarily educated. Now
he's a mentor to a lot of young inmates who
come in the jails. The prison looks to him to
sort of guide people who are having a difficult time.
He served as a mentor. There's times when we've talked
to him and we talk about getting out and he'll say, like,
(31:29):
I'm not sure I can actually leave this place because
there's so many people counting on me.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
It's like a family.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
And we've talked to so many people that who've echoed
that to us, and it's just so natural for him
to actually even care about Jeremy's mental well being and
spiritual health.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Yeah. Absolutely so. Has Leo heard the podcast.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
No, he's not able to hear the podcast, which is
really interesting to us because he he's getting every day,
he gets people coming into him like guards, administrators, outside contractors.
He works in maintenance at the prison he's at and
so he has a lot of dealing with the outside
world and you know he I talked to him on
(32:12):
the phone just the other day, and you know, he said, Gilbert.
Everybody I know is telling me they listen to the podcast,
and guards are coming up to me and they're saying,
you know, I always thought that you were someone who
didn't seem like they belonged here in prison. But now
that I know your story and I know that you're innocent,
I just want to hug you and tell.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
You I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
And you know that has meant so much to Leo
to get that kind of affirmation, because you know, these
guys don't talk about their cases, especially with outsiders. You know,
it's just like not done. And now these guys are
listening to this podcast and realizing, you know, that Leo's innocent,
and you know, he says, he's been getting so many
updates from like on visitation days, like other inmates. Families
(32:50):
on the outside are listening and they want to meet
him and you know, tell him good luck, and they're
how sorry they are, and it's just really moving. I
think he's finally finally getting like the kind of feedback
that you know, he's always wanted, that people believe in
his innocence.
Speaker 5 (33:04):
I think it's really validating for him, even though he
can't listen to it. It's kind of some of the
feedback is kind of trickling down to him, and so
he's able to, you know, feel some of that. And
we're glad he's he's able to feel a little bit
of it, because after all this time and all he's
put into it, it's kind of crazy he can't actually
(33:24):
listen to it.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Yeah, it really is.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
I know that his sister has been reading like the
transcripts to him from like the last episode, and he
said he got all choked up about the concert.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
You know.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
Gilbert came to the concert and he had hurt never
heard that before, and I said, yeah, it's it's one
thing on the page, but it's one thing to actually
hear it, you know. Like I think I read that
part four times.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
And I couldn't get through it without like breaking up.
Speaker 4 (33:50):
And I think on the fourth one, I there's a
little bit of a break in my voice.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
And we said, oh, Les, go with that one. It's
it's realistic. You can't.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
You can't get through this, so you might as well
just be there.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
It's all honest, Gilbert Kelsey, I'm just going to pause
you for a second. I think we're going to take
a quick break and we will be back with more
questions for you guys, do not go anywhere.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
Sounds good.
Speaker 5 (34:11):
Sounds good.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
So Gilbert listeners want to know, are you going to
write a book about this, because they know how impactful
Devil in the Grove was and they want to know
if you plan to do something similar.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
Yeah, I mean, it's something I think about. I'm a
big believer in the power of podcasts and what they
can do to right or wrong. And you know, a book,
I've never gotten this kind of reaction from many of
my books before, Like this kind of reaction I'm seeing
from like all these people writing me, and it's just
amplified and exponentially, and so, you know, there's a lot
(34:46):
of a lot of material that we couldn't get into
the podcast.
Speaker 5 (34:48):
You know.
Speaker 4 (34:49):
One of the things is we were trying to do
this parallel narrative that I sort of fantasized about doing.
Is like Jeremy on one side Leo and eventually they
you know, meet somewhere and yeah, but it just it
didn't work on the audio side. I think it could
work on the written side. But there's so much, so
many characters who didn't make it into the podcast. Some
detectives it just it just quite didn't quite fit. We
(35:10):
had a we have over nine hours, but still it
was it was a it was a labor to get
that down.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
I you know, I believe that.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
And so four years of work absolutely.
Speaker 4 (35:20):
Yeah, And we went in some directions that you know,
we just like the conviction and tegatory review units we did.
We interviewed several conviction and tegative review units. We went
in that direction, what does it take to overturn it?
And it just sort of felt like it was taking
us out of the immediate story of Leo and Jeremy
and Michelle's death. So we just sort of put that
stuff to the side. But there's a lot more there
that we didn't really really need in the podcast or
(35:43):
didn't seem to work, But I think it would work
in a book.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
So it's something I'm thinking about, but I haven't decided.
Speaker 5 (35:48):
Am I allowed to say that Leo is also contemplating
doing some writing.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
Yeah, He's talked about it.
Speaker 5 (35:55):
I am envisioning some sort of collaboration between Gilbert and Leo.
That's what I'm That's what I'm hoping for.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
I would love something like that.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
He's a superb writer. I mean he can reduce you
to tears with his emails and letters. I mean, he's
just such a thoughtful, emotional guy. There's things that he
says sometimes that you know, like I don't really pick
up until I hear it later and go, wow, did
he just really say that? Like he's just a really
interesting storyteller. And it transfers to the to the written
(36:25):
page when he writes too. So I would be honored
to do something like that.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Wow, we will hold our breath.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
And listeners also want to know is the gang getting
back together for another podcast?
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Another case?
Speaker 3 (36:40):
You know, I don't know how to answer that.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
We have a couple of cases that were really interested
in we haven't really had a chance to explore them.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
I would love to.
Speaker 4 (36:48):
I think that this team that I was working with,
it just made this podcast so much better. Everybody brought
in their individual skills and.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Just raise the bar.
Speaker 4 (36:58):
When I look at some of the origin scripts that
I wrote for this while I was just waiting around
for things, I said, well, I might as well start writing.
They are so bad compared to what we had now
when we had collaboration, like with Kara and Britt and
Kelsey and Rucks, everyone came together and just sort of
made everything better and it was honestly, it was a
dream team. I don't know, if Kelsey is like your
(37:19):
your first time experiencing any kind of collaboration, you must
think it's always going to be like this, But I'm
telling you what we had was really really special. In
everybody who's being on the same pages.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
I can recognize that. And yeah, I would love for
the team to come back together for a second season
or another story or something, so certainly open to that.
But if that happens, the plans are still being worked out.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
So the ultimate question is what is the status of
Leo's case? Right now? People are asking does he have
appeals left?
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Someone else asked, you know, the autopsy said that the
killer was left hand, and did is Jeremy left handed?
Wouldn't that be important for you know, some sort of appeal?
Speaker 1 (38:06):
What's going on?
Speaker 4 (38:09):
Yeah, I mean, I'll just address the left handed thing
because it is interesting and Jeremy is left handed, and
you know, I think there's a case to be made,
like how do you stab in a car? The first
we didn't really try to speculate so much about what
exactly happened in the car. Because I think once we
believe all the blood was found outside the car, that's
(38:31):
where her blood had pooled. I believe that she was
killed outside of the car, and you know, she was
stabbed in both the front and the back of her torso,
and so clearly, like you can't really tell where Jeremy
might have been kneeling or standing when he was doing this,
and so to speculate about his left handedness, I don't
think it's really relevant or even something that you could
(38:51):
prove in this particular case.
Speaker 5 (38:53):
So we've asked, we asked the crime scene expert about that,
and apparently, like unless you know the exact position of
how somebody was standing or kneeling as this happened, it's
hard for that to be real evidence of anything. So unfortunately,
even though it is Jeremy is left handed, I'm not
(39:15):
sure that that really can prove anything.
Speaker 4 (39:18):
Yeah, and as far as the case goes, I mean,
he's literally legally out of options. His last appeal had failed.
They appealed it to the Florida Supreme Court, which refused
to hear it, and so he's unless there's some discovery
of new evidence, which really seems kind of unlikely at
this point, because you have physical evidence linking Jeremy to
(39:39):
the scene, and you have multiple confessions, detailed confessions, I'm
not sure what else can arise. You know, I think
the crime scene was gone over in such a sloppy manner.
There was evidence that was left behind that probably could
have linked Jeremy there as well. I'm thinking particularly this
box of cigarettes that was like right not far from
(40:01):
the bloodstains. Jeremy said he was smoking afterwards before he
moved the body.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
We asked him what kind of cigarettes he smoked? Marlborough.
He would never have known that.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
Granted it's a common brand, but there's only one pack
of cigarettes near those bloodstains, and the police photographed it
as if it was evidence, but apparently never collected it. Right,
And so there's a lot of evidence from the crime
scene that you know, Jeremy said, you know, he wrapped
her in in a plastic tarp and dragged her down there. Well,
if you look at the crime scene photos, you can
see several plastic tarps right there in the bushes, in
(40:33):
the garbage, and it.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Was never collected.
Speaker 4 (40:35):
So I don't know, you know, you're ever gonna get
that again. And there's not like some video camera in
a tree back in nineteen eighty seven. So I don't
know where there's going to be any new evidence that's
going to be more significant than having your fingerprints and
multiple confessions linking you to the crime.
Speaker 5 (40:50):
Yeah, but just to clarify, Leo's really his only two
options are being released on parole or some clemency after
and of course with parole that's not the same as
an exoneration. So even if he is released on parole,
he will still be considered a guilty man.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
And does he have a parole date.
Speaker 5 (41:12):
I don't think there's a date so far, but there
should be a hearing some time around March.
Speaker 4 (41:17):
Right, and you know that's going to be that's going
to be an interesting hearing. I'm curious if the state
is going to show up again because the last three
times that Leo has had parole, and you know, he's
he's served his minimum sentence of twenty five years. He's
a model inmate. He's started programs. He says to us,
you know, I had to invent programs to graduate from
(41:38):
in prison. He has like no disciplinary record.
Speaker 3 (41:42):
He's just he's the model inmate.
Speaker 5 (41:44):
Yah. Right, I think it's been like sixteen seventeen years
since he's been written up for any sort of disciplinary thing.
Speaker 4 (41:50):
Yeah, that's and all minors stuff that never happens in prison, right,
But his refusal to apologize and take responsibility for killing
Michelle is what's keeping him behind bars. And every time
he's up for parole, the parole commissioners seem ready to
release him, but then the state attorney or an assistant state
attorney shows up, throws out the autopsy pictures and says,
(42:12):
never apologize, never said I'm sorry, and the commissioners just
sort of flip and change their opinion and deny his parole,
and it's well, will this.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Time be different?
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Now that you know we have again Jeremy confessing on
tape to you guys, do you think this time could
be different?
Speaker 3 (42:28):
I think that the.
Speaker 4 (42:29):
Public awareness of Leo's case could be different. I think
there could be, you know, a media scene at his parole,
like expecting him to be paroled. I think I think
I know a lot of people in Florida who's told
me they want they plan on attending that, and I
wouldn't be surprised if there's a large crowd there to
see Leo get parole, but you.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
Know, it remains to be seen.
Speaker 4 (42:50):
Does the State Attorney's office want to continue to resist
this and to fight this and to sort of double
down on Leo? I think that will be a really
interesting question because that parole is coming up in you know,
just a few months.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Well, I was, I guess, you know, one of the
questions people keep asking is why is the state's attorney
office so adamant on keeping this person in prison when
we have someone confessing, we have the evidence, you know
everything you guys have said, what is going on?
Speaker 4 (43:21):
You know, it's just I think it's just this culture
of protecting convictions and you know, this finality that's sort
of built into the system. There's political reasons for it.
They don't like to lose convictions sometimes. You know, in
this particular case, the assistant state attorney who prosecute is
no longer alive. He was also Jeremy's prosecutor, and so
it's complicated. You know, why is this guy going into
(43:43):
an office by himself, without a tape recorder and a
witness and interviewing Jeremy about this particular crime. It's just like,
I think it's completely unethical, and so I think They're
not only having to defend the conviction of Leo, but
now they have to defend their office because we're accusing
their office of of certain unethical behaviors. And so I
think it's just sort of a way of doubling down.
(44:04):
Just Oh, it's just guys promoting a podcast. It's just
the you know, the media, don't listen to them. We
know what we're doing. They're completely opposed to conviction Integative
Review units in Polk County. You know, they told Kelsey
in an interview that, you know, we get it right,
you know, we don't need the Conviction Integative reviewunonit like
they do in Tampa and Jacksonville.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
That is just so arrogant and just like anyone who
says that, it's like people who are like, I'm not racist,
they're probably racist.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
If you need to announce you're not racist.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
Like, we don't get it, we don't get it wrong,
you probably are getting it wrong right.
Speaker 4 (44:37):
And one of Teresa Hall, we interviewed from the Conviction
Integative Union in Hillsborough County, and she was like, you know,
if if a plane falls out of the sky, there's
going to be an investigation because we don't want that
to happen again. If a doctor, a surgeon loses a
patient on the table that shouldn't die, we want an investigation.
We want to make sure that that doesn't happen again.
(44:57):
With lawyers who are dealing with life and death issues
for some reason, lawyers who sue airlines and you know,
sue doctors and hospitals, but they don't want their own
work looked at. It doesn't make any sense. We know
that they get cases wrong. We have a very healthy
record of exonerations in this country of people who are
wrongly convicted and released from death row. So you are
(45:17):
getting it wrong. Why are you afraid of an investigation?
Speaker 2 (45:20):
Well, and to be clear for listeners, it is particularly
designed that way by prosecutorial immunity qualified immunity. So just
so listeners know, this isn't a fluke. It is designed
so they cannot be held accountable, right, And that's.
Speaker 4 (45:34):
To me is like the most disgusting part of this
thing is like, you know, we looked into the history
of the of the tenth State Attorney's Office, and you know,
we found some cases of the wrongful convictions, and we
found evidence that state attorneys were hiding exculpatory evidence from
the defense, and I just thought about that, like if
and these guys, by the way, they get their name
(45:55):
mentioned in a Florida Supreme Court opinion, they don't lose
their job.
Speaker 3 (45:59):
They can continued to.
Speaker 4 (46:00):
Prosecute after doing this, and you know, sending someone to
prison for the rest of their life wrongfully, there's no consequences.
I was thinking if I was to say, I'm writing
a book like Devil and the Grove and I find
a legal document where all the Groveland boys like confess
to their lawyers and said, we did this, you got
to get us off. And I said, well, that doesn't
fit my narrative.
Speaker 3 (46:19):
I'm hiding that.
Speaker 4 (46:20):
I'm going to put that in a box and never
see it and not have it affect my narrative. You know,
if I got caught doing that, my book would be
pulled from the shelves and I wouldn't get.
Speaker 3 (46:28):
Another publishing contract.
Speaker 4 (46:29):
Right, So I have more accountability than the State Attorney's
office does. And so this whole thing about the integrity
of the courts being more important than you know, the
court of public opinion, I don't buy it.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
Yeah, So obviously this podcast got a lot of people
riled up.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
How can they help Leo?
Speaker 5 (46:49):
Well, we do. We do have a petition out there.
I'm pretty sure it is on the Lava for Good website.
It is a change dot org petition that is was
put together by the Innocence Project of Florida, who represent Leo.
And so what you know, they're calling for, what we
are supporting the call for is a transfer of Leo's
(47:13):
case to one of these districts that has a conviction
integrity review unit, because we think if somebody is able
to really take, you know, a look at the full case,
at all the evidence that, you know, everything that's come
forward over the years, they'll see exactly what we know,
which is that Leo is innocent and that Jeremy Scott
(47:34):
killed Michelle Schofield. And you know, we're hoping that some
sort of independent review can happen. And so the petition, signing,
the petition, getting more attention for that is kind of
what we're we're putting our energy towards right now. I
don't know what else, Gilbert, you you're a little more
tuned into this at this point.
Speaker 4 (47:56):
No, I mean, right now, that seems to be the
thing the stage that we're working for is like, we're
just sort of supporting the Florida Innocence Project's efforts to
get this petition signed. I believe that there will be
other things that will come up as this sort of
aftermath of Bone Valley sort of develops. I think, you know,
it could be in any direction, but we're waiting. There's
(48:18):
a lot of people listening to this in Florida, and
a lot of people have reached out and said they
want to help and they want to do something about this.
And that was very much the feeling I had with
Devil and the Grove of when people started coming up
to me saying we're going to do something about this,
and suddenly this political movement began, and sure enough, then
it comes across the desk of the governor at the time,
and that's when the pardon started.
Speaker 3 (48:37):
So hopefully enough people will.
Speaker 4 (48:39):
Listen and that kind of you know, grassroots effort will
begin again.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
I don't know if this will surprise you guys, but
a lot of people want to help Jeremy as well.
They want to send him stamps. Will you be able
to put out his mailing address so people can do that.
Speaker 4 (48:55):
You know, we're working on that right now there's Jeremy's
in a different situation than Leo because he's in the
solitary confinement and he's not allowed to nobody's allowed to
receive stamps anymore. They cut that back at the at
the Department of Corrections in Florida, so all the mail
has to go to this one clearing house in Tampa
and then it gets delivered to the various prisons and
(49:16):
Jeremy gets a copy of whatever letter you'd send. We're
trying to figure out a way because I've had a
lot of people contact me saying they want to put
some money in his canteen. They heard about, you know,
how broke he was and he couldn't buy soap, and
they just wanted to reach out and help. And so
we're trying to figure out a way to have maybe
a middle person be the collector of this, and we
(49:36):
just haven't been able to solve it yet, but we
are working on it.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
So if people want to stay updated on you know,
the petition, how to contact Jeremy, where do they go?
Speaker 5 (49:47):
So with the petition, if you signed the petition, you
will receive updates if you know if there are any
updates posted to the petition, you will be notified that
if you sign it, so that is also motivation to
sign the petition so you can get those kind of updates.
But we're also Gilbert and I are both on Twitter
(50:10):
and are updating with whenever stuff comes through. Also Lava
for Good. If you follow Lava for Good on social media,
they're definitely going to be posting any updates related to this.
So yeah, just you know, be on the lookout for
stuff on social media and with the petition.
Speaker 4 (50:30):
Hey, Maggie, I have a question for you. What are
you working on right now? What do you have going on?
Speaker 2 (50:35):
Well, we are working on season two of Wrongful Conviction
with Me Maggie Freeling, and that is going to launch
January ninth, and you can find that in the regular
Wrongful Conviction feed with me and Jason and.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
I'm very excited. This season is just some of the
most egregious cases.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
We're really focusing on women, so everyone should listen and yeah,
I can't wait.
Speaker 3 (51:01):
That's great.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Gilbert Kelsey, thank you so much for talking with me.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
Thank you for listening, Thank you for answering listeners questions,
my questions.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
We really appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (51:11):
Oh, Maggie, thanks so much. It's such a pleasure to
actually do an interview with.
Speaker 3 (51:14):
You and really talk to you.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Well, you interviewed me last time, so this has been
Hello, y'all.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
I'm Maggie Freeling, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and the host
of Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling, And this is a
bonus episode of Bone Valley. So I'm here with Gilbert
King and Kelsey Decker and I'm going to ask them
some of my questions, some of your questions all about
the behind the scenes of Bone Valley. So, Gilbert and Kelsey.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Hello, Hey, Maggie, how you doing.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
I'm good. How are y'all good?
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Really good?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
So one of my first questions is, as someone who
has done projects like this, it takes a lot of time.
But you guys started working on this quite a while ago.
So can you tell me when you started working on
this how much time you spent in Florida?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
What was that like?
Speaker 4 (00:44):
Yeah, I'll say it took us over four years to
do this. So you know, obviously we worked through COVID
and so that that sort of slowed us down. There
were a few things that slowed us down. We were
trying to reach Jeremy Scott and he was constantly being
put in disciplinary confinement, and then with COVID, so there
we were a lot of waiting around as well. But
I would say we kept ourselves pretty busy with this.
(01:04):
We had the extra time. We were a lot of waiting,
so we just tried to do more and more research
and just keep digging. And so that was our experience.
Why it took so long.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Right, and because I remember at one point you said like, oh,
this is a letter, you know, from our first letter
to Jeremy, and like, what was it twenty nineteen you
wrote him or twenty eighteen.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Yeah, I think it was like I think the first
time we wrote him was like early twenty twenty, like
during the pandemic, and he didn't respond for seven months,
and I think we sent out a bunch of letters
finally just started writing back to us.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
So and you guys moved to Florida.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
Go ahead, Calsey, you can tell about the big movie
with your pickup truck.
Speaker 5 (01:38):
Yeah, yeah, I mean we moved to Florida for about
three months. So it was the summer of twenty nineteen. Yeah,
I have, yeah, summer of twenty nineteen, so we were
there for a few months. We are kind of like
home base. There was Saint Petersburg. We weren't entirely sure.
We wanted to spend all of our time in like,
(02:00):
but we were making the drive back and forth quite
a bit. But yeah, it was it was an interesting
start to like the real reporting in the case, just
you know, being down there in the midst of it.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
So it's kind of important to do that, you know,
when I did my podcast Murder and Alliance, which was
investigating a wrongful conviction. I pretty much lived in Ohio
for a good year. Did locals know you guys?
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Like, what was that?
Speaker 6 (02:26):
Like?
Speaker 4 (02:27):
Yeah, we would run into the same people our home
base a lot of times. We would drive It was
about forty five minutes from Saint Pete to Lakeland, and
our home base became the Lakeland Public Library, and they
actually gave us a room in there that we would
use for interviews. So it worked out really well. And
there's also some a lot of research to do in
Lakeland from you know, historical research that was right in
the library. But I remember that as just being a
(02:49):
lot of fun and every morning, like just getting up
and you know, drinking coffee on the way, going across
the Skyway bridge and just driving to Lakeland and just
like doing prep in the car for the interview is
that we have to do that day and I just
it was really a fun like commute to actually have
to do that, and I think, yeah, we started running
into a lot of people that we'd known. There was
(03:09):
one point, I don't know if you remember this Kelsey,
where I was kind of not paying attention and I
almost ran over a guy around one of those lakes,
and he was like, I just spoke. I did a
talk down there, some legal talk, and we made eye
contact and I knew I know him, and I sent
him a little quick email. I said, hey, sorry, I
think I just tried to run you over, and he
(03:30):
was like, I knew that was you.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Don't worry about it.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
So listeners do want to know, though, if Gilbert, your
familiarity with Florida from your other book, Devil and the Grove, if.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Any of those connections helped you with this case.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
Yeah, I would. I would definitely say they did. You know,
there's a lot of people like I did two books
down there, so I've spent about fifteen years down there
in this part of central Florida, and so.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
A lot of people know me.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
And I think there's like a benefit to having some connections,
Like you know, sometimes we'll be writing something and trying
to figure out something in terms of like a Supreme
Court Florida's Supreme Court decision, and I'm not really entirely
sure what the you know, what to make of the decision,
And like there are I'm friendly with some of the
Florida Supreme Court justices, so I can actually call them
up and say, hey, can you explain your opinion in
(04:18):
that particular case. And so there's a lot of that
local stuff that I think really paid off. And same
with just having going down there and speaking all the time,
I run into a lot of people that I know,
and they seem more eager to help me.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
I think, yeah, yeah, absolutely So Kelsey, this was all
really new to you. You were pretty much just out
of college and now you're eyeballs deep in a really
crazy wrongful conviction case, murder case, another murder case.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
What was all this like for you?
Speaker 7 (04:50):
You know, I just kind of had to take it
a day at a time sometimes because yeah, every phase
of this project was something just entirely new for me.
Speaker 5 (05:05):
But you know, having having Gilbert there there was always support. Yeah,
he was my cheerleader every step of the way. So yeah,
I mean it was an amazing experience. Like first job.
I think this is you know, maybe kind of a
dream job for a lot of people, and here I am,
like right out of college, just diving right into it.
(05:27):
So I felt very lucky in a lot of ways.
But there were definitely moments where I felt I was
in a little over my head having to kind of
learn some of the stuff as I went along. But
here I am, I made it, and I am, you know,
really happy I've been able to see it through to
the end. And yeah, I mean I just care so
(05:49):
much about the story. It was something I just you know,
was very motivated to continue learning and committing to and
putting everything I could into it.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
So how did your relationship the two of you? How
did it change over the course of four years? I
mean that's a long time. And Kelsey, again, like you
were very new, so I'm sure by the end you
were a rock star investigator.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
But so how did it all change?
Speaker 5 (06:15):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (06:16):
Well, I think, you know, part of the thing with
this is like I have a lot of researchers and
they're based in New York, and they're actually guys who
are older than me, and like it just for them
to just upend themselves and move down to Florida was
just not going to happen for them. You know, they
had families, they have commitments, and and so you really
need somebody who has the flexibility to do something like this,
and so I think Kelsey came in as a researcher.
(06:38):
Basically I had a couple different projects going, and I
remember specifically I was trying to decide, like there was
a TV thing, a new book, and I was trying
to prioritize, and then Leo's case came across my desk
and Kelsey started looking into it, and I remember there
was a moment I said, well, Kelsey, like what what
do you think I should prioritize what project? And I
remember her specifically saying like, well, it looks like there's
(07:01):
an innocent man in prison that one. And it just
like this moment of clarity, like yeah, of course we
have to do that one. And so that was really
an inspiration to get going. And you know, Kelsey started
as a researcher, but because like we decided to pivot
to a podcast while we were down there, you know,
she had to learn all the audio recording and sort
of was all self taught, and so like she's moving
(07:23):
through this going from researcher to you know, audio recordists
to producer and all these different skills that she had
to learn for this job. So I really need somebody
flexible in, somebody who's not afraid of learning.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
And she was it.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Wow, would you agree with all that, Kelsey?
Speaker 5 (07:40):
I guess, so yeah, I didn't have much to lose
with upending my entire life and going down to Florida
and learning everything on the job.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Well, were you nervous like to go down just like
you and Gilbert that he's a terrifying human, but like
you know, I'm you didn't know him that well, Like,
was that weird to start off, just like the two of.
Speaker 5 (07:59):
You, Yeah, it was. It was a little weird, but
we fell into like a rhythm pretty quickly. I mean
by that time, we'd already we were already both like
very invested in this case and this story. So yeah,
I mean we we were so obsessed with it at
that point. We were talking about it constantly, and so
(08:22):
like it felt pretty natural after a little time passed.
And I'm actually I was born in Florida, so also,
like the landscape there was kind of familiar to me.
I have some family down there, so there was like
a little bit of familiarity in that aspect as well.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Well, that's what I was going to ask you. So
where were you both like coming from? You were coming
from New York, Gilbert, is that are you from New York?
Speaker 4 (08:48):
Yeah, I'm originally from upstate New York, but I've been
in I've been in New York for the last thirty
something years, so yeah, I'm a New Yorker. But yeah,
you know, and I'm really used to Florida. I think
there was some you know, weird things of like when
we were like basically roommates for a couple months, and
like I think Kelsey was like, am I supposed to cook?
Is that part of my chob realize like he doesn't cook.
(09:09):
He just eats out all the time.
Speaker 5 (09:11):
It's true.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Yeah New York, Yeah exactly, but but yeah, I just
it was it was it was an adjustment, especially but
once we built into the schedule and like we'd stay home,
do all the phone calls, do all the prep work there,
and then just go out in the field in Lakeland,
And it was really nice to be able to get
away from Polk County and just be working outside of
Polk county because I don't really like working in the
(09:34):
counties that, you know, because then people start snooping around
and they know where you are, and you see them
around and they know where you are. I didn't want
to deal with.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
That, so right, right, So so getting to the case,
did you go into this skeptical of his innocence? I mean,
I know this came across your desk from a very
reputable person, a former judge. You know, honestly, did you
go into it thinking, Okay, this is an innocent man
or how did you guys go into this?
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Were you ever skeptical of his innocence?
Speaker 4 (10:05):
I'm always skeptical, and even though this came to me
through a judge, I just it's not that I don't
trust anybody, but I just have to like know for
myself that I'm going into something that I know enough
about it. And so there were months that went by
where it was just research, and you know, it did
help that Judge Cup was vouching for him. But I
(10:25):
think I try to put a timetable on this. I
think it was, you know, at least weeks before I said,
it really looks like this guy could really be innocent,
and you know, from reading from the transcript, it was
pretty obvious to me that he was not rightfully convicted.
But once we got down there and met Leo and
started doing our own real deep research on it, it
(10:47):
was pretty clear.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
To us that we were dealing with an innocent man.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Kelsey, would you agree.
Speaker 5 (10:51):
With that, Yeah, definitely. I mean I think before we
met Leo for the very first time, we tried to
read everything we could get our hands, and so we
had a really good understanding of yeah, of like how
the trial went, what evidence was there, but you know,
you never you never really know, like everything doesn't come
(11:12):
out in court. He could be wrongfully convicted and not
necessarily be innocent. I think there is a little bit
of a distinction there.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Yeah, go distinction then for listeners.
Speaker 5 (11:23):
Sure, yeah, Gilbert might be better at explaining this. This
is a distinction. Judge Scott Cupp drew, you know, the
very first time I met him, and probably the first
time Gilbert spoke to him as well, that you know,
stuff can go wrong at trial, like prosecutors can do
shady things, and it can somebody can be convicted on
(11:47):
bad evidence or I don't know, Yeah, I mean, things
can go wrong. But maybe they actually did do the crime,
or maybe they had some knowledge of it or something
like that. This in Leo's case, he wasn't there. He
didn't do it, he didn't know anything about it, which
I think is where at least Judge Scott cup would
(12:08):
draw the line it like, you know, he's innocent, he
didn't know anything about it, he wasn't there. But yeah,
so we had all of that, all of the documentation,
that information and going into meet Leo, and then I think,
you know, that first meeting, after hearing him speak, that
kind of really solidified things for us that it was like,
(12:29):
it was really hard for us to kind of wrap
our head around how he could be guilty after that
first meeting.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
So, yeah, that's a really good point. And I think
sometimes you can get to a point where the prosecutor
just doesn't prove his case beyond a reasonable doubt, but
you know, a person can still be guilty. And so
that was one of the things that I was trying
to always consider. But I think what made this case
really interesting is you have this other person involved in
this who is actually confessed to the murder, and so
(13:01):
the investigation starts to go to him too, and I
remember just specifically having a thought like if Leo, if
I ever catch him lying to me, or if he
was trying to mislead me or being really not transparent
about certain things, that's going to lead to more skepticism.
And I just to devote this much time and energy
to a case that could fall apart on me. You know,
(13:23):
I think back on the NAACP and when they were
doing these cases in the forties and fifties, they couldn't
afford a single loss. So when they were going down
there and defending innocent people, they had to make sure
that that person was innocent because a loss would be
too damaging. And you certainly don't want that coming back
on us. But you know, once we were aware of
who Jeremy Scott was and we started investigating him, it
(13:44):
became not only a problem, you know, a situation where
Leo's not only innocent, but it's this guy. This guy
did it, And that was what was really intriguing to us.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
I'm Maggie Freeling checking in with Gilbert King and Kelsey
Decker from Bone Valley and we will be right back.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Hi.
Speaker 6 (14:03):
I'm Jason Flamm, CEO and founder of Lava for Good.
Podcasts Home to Bone Valley, Wrongful Conviction, The War on Drugs,
and many other great podcasts. Today, we're asking you, our listeners,
to take part in a survey. Your feedback is going
to help inform how we make podcasts in the future.
Your complete and candid answers will help us continue to
bring you more insightful and inspiring stories about important topics
(14:26):
that impact us all. So please go to lava for
goood dot com slash survey and participate today. Thank you
for your support.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
Bone Valley is sponsored by Stand Together. Stand Together is
a philanthropic community that partners with America's boldest change makers
to tackle the root causes of our country's biggest problems,
including the broken criminal justice system. Christina Dent is one
of many entrepreneurs partnering with Stand Together to end the
War on drugs, the underlying cause of many problems such
(15:00):
as overincarceration and the criminalization of addiction in communities.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Across the country.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
As a foster mom, Christina came into contact with the
War on drugs when she saw how it was ripping
apart the family she worked with. She witnessed how kids
were affected and how mothers wanted something better for their families,
but didn't have the tools to get there themselves. Christina
Dent started a nonprofit called End It for Good because
(15:27):
she knew there was a better solution to help these families.
She's working to end the War on Drugs in Mississippi
and build consensus around the state to help families struggling
with substance abuse problems find a different path forward than
the one they've been given. Stand Together has many more
stories like this one, as it partners with thousands of
(15:49):
change makers who were driving solutions in education, health care, poverty,
and the criminal justice system. To learn more about the
War on drugs, listen to the War on Drug Podcast
on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
One of the more powerful moments for a lot of
listeners was in chapter two when you go to the
evidence room together.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
What was that like and why was that so emotional?
Particularly for you? Kelsey?
Speaker 5 (16:17):
Yeah, So, I think by the time we went and
viewed those photos, we'd already been down in Florida for
a couple months. We'd spoken to Leo a number of times,
we'd spoken to you know, a lot of the people
you hear in the podcast already. So you know, by
(16:38):
that point, I was pretty deep into the story, and
you know, I felt like I did have kind of
a sense of who Michelle was, and you know she
by that point, you know, she really felt like somebody
I knew to some degree, and I think just going there,
(17:00):
like I knew some of what we were going to
be seeing, but I don't know, it's it's just it's
hard to be prepared for, you know, actually seeing the
violence and yeah, I don't know, just the the trauma
(17:25):
and the violence of all of it. Just really the brutality.
It just I don't know, it really hit.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Me, the brutality of it.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
And there's just also something about, you know, going through
and having this lead up to the evidence. They showing
us all the physical evidence that the plywood that's resting
on her body, we're seeing the downy bottle that was
smeared with blood, and then you start seeing clothing to clothing. Yeah,
that starts when you start seeing all the bloodstains on
that and the and the tears and the rips from
(17:56):
the knife, and then you know, the finally they bring
out the pictures from the autopsy, and you know, it's
just you feel like you've seen pictures of her. Now,
you've talked to her family members, You've talked to Leo,
you talk to Michelle's brother, and it's just hard to
get that out of your head. And I think, you know,
we're always doing debriefings and just keeping the recorder going,
(18:18):
and I think just we got back to the car
and like Kelsey made it through all of that, the
whole evidence room, but I think it's just like sort
of snuck up on her and hit her. I don't know,
but you held off through the whole through the whole
evidence room, but it was just you know, you got
away from it and that's where it hit you, I guess.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
But I think sometimes it's the processing, you know, like
I tell our producers, like when I'm doing these interviews,
you know as a journalist, Gilbert and Kelsey, now you'll
know too, like you just sometimes have this wall up
to get through it. And then it's after the fact
when I go back and i'm transcribing and I'm listening
to the interview that I'm like, oh, now I'm processing it,
and it's really hitting what was said or what you're
(18:57):
looking at.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
Definitely, that's a really good point That happens to me
a lot too, And I'm sort of, you know, you're
in the moment, but you're asking questions, you're thinking of
things to ask, you're trying to get into the flow
of the interview, and you're in a different space, and
then you go back and listen to it. We had
the same experience with Jeremy just going back and listening
to it. It just it sounded even more powerful than
it did when we were there in person, just hearing
(19:18):
his voice crack and the pain and torture that he
was feeling. It almost like flew by me a little
bit while we were in the room.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
But boy, well sometimes it does.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
And that's like for listeners to know, Like when you're
in that room, you're really like, well, I got to
get this question, and is my tape recorder working? Like
it is very hard to do eighty thousand things and
focus on the interview and process it all at once.
So yeah, definitely what listeners are hearing is very crafted,
for sure.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
Yeah, And you know, we did so much prep for
that in that interview, just by the way, you know,
and it was I think it was clearly the best
interview we've ever done. Like it was the last one
we did, basically, but it was the best one. I
think we were so prepared for and we were just
working off each other and he was being so responsive
to both of us. It was a really incredible thing
(20:07):
to go back and listen to that and think, Wow,
I cannot believe we got all that out of them.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Are you still in touch with Jeremy?
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Yeah, he's really difficult to reach again. He wrote me
a letter. It was a couple of months ago. I
hadn't heard from him a long time. It was a
really short message and he said, you know, dear mister King,
I don't hold a grudge against you for doing this story.
I wish you the best, but the monster in me
is coming out and I'm going to be locked up
for a long time.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
And I was like, what is this?
Speaker 4 (20:34):
You know, this was a short note that I got
from him and then found out like a couple days
later he was involved in some kind of altercation with
a weapon and he got moved to a different prison
and put in solitary confinement. Don't really know the details
of it, but he's locked up for a long time,
so I don't know, you know, that's kind of a
life he's led in prison. It's extraordinarily violent, extraordinarily impulsive,
(20:56):
he gets moved around constantly, there's psychiatric issues.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
But I do try to stay in touch with him.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
And we just got another letter from him last week
and so he was writing again. So I'm going to
stay in touch with him. I think I'm the only
one who's writing to him.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Well, let me ask you about that, because I'm sure
there's a lot of listeners who are going to go,
why he's a violent, horrible, murderous person.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Why stay in touch with him?
Speaker 4 (21:22):
You know, I don't know a really great answer to that,
other than he is a human being, and he exposed
part of himself and it's you know, really came clean
about the nightmares that he has and the punishment that
he's feeling in the torture he's having. And I do
believe that he's trying to help himself by clearing his
conscience of this. And also I think he's trying to
(21:43):
help Leo. And I just see that as something admirable,
and Leo is thankful for it. And basically we follow
Leo's lead on a lot of these kind of moral
and ethical decisions.
Speaker 5 (21:52):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's definitely something I care about,
Like I don't I do want to stay in touch
with Jeremy, I know, like I never want to downplay
all of the harm he's caused. But I feel for
Jeremy too, like he's he's had it really rough, he
(22:12):
really never had a chance in life, and as much
harm as he's caused, I still feel like, I don't know,
he deserves a little compassion, and I you know what, Yeah,
I agree with Gilbert. He's trying to tell the truth,
I think, and I think he's genuine and he's remorseful,
(22:34):
and I don't know, I want him to know that
that's not going unnoticed. Like I want him to know
that he's doing a good thing and he's doing the
right thing, and he should be proud of that.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
I think, you know, that's probably why all of us
are on this network, because not only are we journalists,
but we're also humans and we recognize is the humanity
in people. And I think all of us would agree
that nobody is defined by the worst day of their life.
And I think, you know, I think that's really beautiful
that you guys put in Jeremy's story and took so
(23:13):
much care to show that he was once a kid
and you know, he became a product of his environment,
which is really, really tragic, and I really appreciate you
guys putting that in there.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
Yeah, and I think you know, he's taken responsibility for
his acts. He's confessed to all the murders he's committed.
He knows he's not ever getting out of prison. He
really shouldn't get out of prison. He's extraordinarily violent and impulsive.
But you know, it doesn't mean we still can't care
for him and wish for him the best in the
rest of his days. And the fact that he has
nobody to talk to, and you know, I'm the only
(23:48):
one he's writing to. You know, that comes with some
kind of responsibility. You know, I'm I don't want to
be his best friend, but I do want to be
there and talk to him and listen to him, and
you know, who knows what else he'll say.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Sure, speaking of Probably one of the craziest things besides
the actual killer confessing to the murder that someone else
is in prison for, is that you come across another
murder while investigating Michelle's murder. Where is that investigation at will?
Anyone Jeremy ever be prosecuted for that.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
You know, this is maddening to me because we went
several times to the Ossiola County Sheriff's office with our
evidence and with our letters where Jeremy started taking responsibility
for killing this cab driver, Joseph Lavere. It wasn't just
his confession. We had other evidence that we put together,
stuff that didn't even make it into the podcast because
you know, we didn't really feel the need to expand
(24:43):
on this forever after he confessed. But we've brought it
in a couple times. We brought it into the State
Attorney's office, and they basically have just refused to investigate it,
which I just find flabbergasting. Actually, it's clear evidence they
have a confession, and they basically doubled down in their
response by saying that we believe that we prosecuted the
(25:07):
right guy in dan Odie, but he wasn't convicted by
the jury, but we still think he's the murderer. And
you know, for me, that's annoying because these prosecutors are
always talking about finality and the justice system. You got
to respect the jury's verdict, but here they are smearing
a man who's been quitted and calling him a murderer
because it doesn't fit their narrative.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
I don't know why they're.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
Not investigating it. It's just it's beyond me to understand
why they're doing that.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Have you talked to Joseph Laver's family.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
You know, that's been a really tricky thing. We've tried
tracking him down. I've sent messages. They're scattered all over.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
It was a broken family.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
Joseph had gotten divorced about a year before he was murdered,
and so the family just kind of scattered. He had
a young son at the time, who's maybe one or
two years old, and tried to find him, but he's
locked away in jail as well, and they just haven't
been able to reach him. So we haven't had any
luck trying to get Lavera's family, and there's some other
reporters who have tried too and have not been able
(26:04):
to reach him. But that's definitely something we're going to
continue to pursue because I don't believe justice has been
served in that case.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
So, Kelsey, something listeners want to know about is you
were always asking Gilbert about his feelings. Why did you
do that? Was that just instinctual, like what was up
with asking Gilbert about us feeling?
Speaker 5 (26:24):
Yeah, I suppose it was kind of instinctual, like, you know,
I had a feeling that we were there on the ground,
we were doing the work, and you know, in some
ways the listener is going to look to us to
kind of interpret what's going on and what we're seeing
and finding out, and some of that is sharing what
(26:47):
we're feeling and how we're processing it. And yeah, you know,
Gilbert started to get the hang of it. You know,
it didn't come incredibly natural for him, but but we
made some progress there, I think, And yeah, it was
it was a learning curve.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Well, yeah, I mean I imagine Gilbert and your other reporting.
No one's usually putting a mic in your face and saying,
how do you feel about this?
Speaker 3 (27:14):
No?
Speaker 4 (27:14):
I hate You know, there's that line in that Departed
where they say where talking about Freud says that the
Irish or immune.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
To therapy, it just doesn't work on the Irish.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
That's who I feel is like, what are you asking
me my feelings for?
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Who cares?
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Yeah, it's it's an awkward thing, and you know, there's
also a lot of compartmentalization that I tried to do
in this kind of stuff, Like, if you get really
emotional and thinking about the humanity and the pain and
all these waves of violence in the story, it can
really kind of paralyze you. And so I always kind
of put that stuff in the back and just try
to be in the moment with this stuff. And so
(27:48):
I think it was kind of funny when Kelsey's asking
me these questions about my feelings and I'm just you know,
doing logistical stuff and just yeah, I didn't really ever
get the hang of it. Just awful at those kind
of stuff.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Well, it's funny because listeners seem to think you loved
answering and talking about your feelings, so surprise listeners who
did not. So so people love Bone Valley and it's
been my favorite podcast of the year. Why do you
think so many people are responding to Bone Valley? You know,
(28:23):
there's a million podcasts out there about cases, murders, wrongful convictions.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Why are people resonating with Bone Valley.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
You know, I'll just take a quick stab at it,
but I think it comes back to the work you
did with Suave when it has heart.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Suave has heart, that story has a lot of heart.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
And I think you know that was in our heads too,
Like we wanted to tell a story with heart, and
we want it to be you know, emotional, not just
a true crime like procedural.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
We wanted you to care about the people.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
And I think because we spent so much time with
our subjects and got to know them so well and
they were so comfortable talking, that you begin to care
about people like Chrissy, not just Leo, but just people
in the story. And I don't know, I just think
there's a human and emotional connection to this story that
felt real while we were working on it the whole time.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Well, and that goes back to you know, the whole
being compassionate to Jeremy. You know, if you had just
treated him like a subject and not a human, I
highly doubt we would be where we are with any
of the information you got from him.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Yeah, I think that's true.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
And I think, you know, like it's just I don't
think there's much interesting in black and white good versus evil.
There's a lot of those gray areas, and you know,
Leo has his own gray areas, right, It's really in
the beginning, it's really hard to feel sympathetic for him.
When you hear all this, you know, bad character evidence
coming in and he's talking about, you know, his relationship
with Michelle. It's not a perfect relationship. They're a young couple,
(29:48):
they have their issues. It gets a little volatile at times.
So Leo's not like the fuzzy bunny of wrongful convictions
and Jeremy. You know, Leo doesn't think Jeremy's the monster
he was looking for. And I think that's what really
makes it interesting.
Speaker 5 (30:00):
M h.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
How do you how do you think, you know, how
does Leo feel about Jeremy now today.
Speaker 6 (30:08):
Leo is.
Speaker 5 (30:11):
I think Leo is very grateful that Jeremy is telling
the truth and that Jeremy is trying to do what
he can to correct this injustice. And I think, you know, Leo,
(30:32):
Leo cares about Jeremy as another human being. I think,
you know, kind of like us. Leo sees Jeremy as
somebody who who deserves respect for being a human. And
you know, despite all of the terrible things he's done,
(30:54):
and I know that Leo still prais for Jeremy and
thinks about Jeremy, And yeah, I don't know, I don't
know what else to add to that.
Speaker 4 (31:07):
Yeah, and I think it's just a testament to Leo's
character and you know who he is as a person.
You know, in the prison, he's like extraordinarily educated. Now
he's a mentor to a lot of young inmates who
come in the jails. The prison looks to him to
sort of guide people who are having a difficult time.
He served as a mentor. There's times when we've talked
to him and we talk about getting out and he'll say, like,
(31:29):
I'm not sure I can actually leave this place because
there's so many people counting on me.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
It's like a family.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
And we've talked to so many people that who've echoed
that to us, and it's just so natural for him
to actually even care about Jeremy's mental well being and
spiritual health.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Yeah. Absolutely so. Has Leo heard the podcast.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
No, he's not able to hear the podcast, which is
really interesting to us because he he's getting every day,
he gets people coming into him like guards, administrators, outside contractors.
He works in maintenance at the prison he's at and
so he has a lot of dealing with the outside
world and you know he I talked to him on
(32:12):
the phone just the other day, and you know, he said, Gilbert.
Everybody I know is telling me they listen to the podcast,
and guards are coming up to me and they're saying,
you know, I always thought that you were someone who
didn't seem like they belonged here in prison. But now
that I know your story and I know that you're innocent,
I just want to hug you and tell.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
You I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
And you know that has meant so much to Leo
to get that kind of affirmation, because you know, these
guys don't talk about their cases, especially with outsiders. You know,
it's just like not done. And now these guys are
listening to this podcast and realizing, you know, that Leo's innocent,
and you know, he says, he's been getting so many
updates from like on visitation days, like other inmates. Families
(32:50):
on the outside are listening and they want to meet
him and you know, tell him good luck, and they're
how sorry they are, and it's just really moving. I
think he's finally finally getting like the kind of feedback
that you know, he's always wanted, that people believe in
his innocence.
Speaker 5 (33:04):
I think it's really validating for him, even though he
can't listen to it. It's kind of some of the
feedback is kind of trickling down to him, and so
he's able to, you know, feel some of that. And
we're glad he's he's able to feel a little bit
of it, because after all this time and all he's
put into it, it's kind of crazy he can't actually
(33:24):
listen to it.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Yeah, it really is.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
I know that his sister has been reading like the
transcripts to him from like the last episode, and he
said he got all choked up about the concert.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
You know.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
Gilbert came to the concert and he had hurt never
heard that before, and I said, yeah, it's it's one
thing on the page, but it's one thing to actually
hear it, you know. Like I think I read that
part four times.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
And I couldn't get through it without like breaking up.
Speaker 4 (33:50):
And I think on the fourth one, I there's a
little bit of a break in my voice.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
And we said, oh, Les, go with that one. It's
it's realistic. You can't.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
You can't get through this, so you might as well
just be there.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
It's all honest, Gilbert Kelsey, I'm just going to pause
you for a second. I think we're going to take
a quick break and we will be back with more
questions for you guys, do not go anywhere.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
Sounds good.
Speaker 5 (34:11):
Sounds good.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
So Gilbert listeners want to know, are you going to
write a book about this, because they know how impactful
Devil in the Grove was and they want to know
if you plan to do something similar.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
Yeah, I mean, it's something I think about. I'm a
big believer in the power of podcasts and what they
can do to right or wrong. And you know, a book,
I've never gotten this kind of reaction from many of
my books before, Like this kind of reaction I'm seeing
from like all these people writing me, and it's just
amplified and exponentially, and so, you know, there's a lot
(34:46):
of a lot of material that we couldn't get into
the podcast.
Speaker 5 (34:48):
You know.
Speaker 4 (34:49):
One of the things is we were trying to do
this parallel narrative that I sort of fantasized about doing.
Is like Jeremy on one side Leo and eventually they
you know, meet somewhere and yeah, but it just it
didn't work on the audio side. I think it could
work on the written side. But there's so much, so
many characters who didn't make it into the podcast. Some
detectives it just it just quite didn't quite fit. We
(35:10):
had a we have over nine hours, but still it
was it was a it was a labor to get
that down.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
I you know, I believe that.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
And so four years of work absolutely.
Speaker 4 (35:20):
Yeah, And we went in some directions that you know,
we just like the conviction and tegatory review units we did.
We interviewed several conviction and tegative review units. We went
in that direction, what does it take to overturn it?
And it just sort of felt like it was taking
us out of the immediate story of Leo and Jeremy
and Michelle's death. So we just sort of put that
stuff to the side. But there's a lot more there
that we didn't really really need in the podcast or
(35:43):
didn't seem to work, But I think it would work
in a book.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
So it's something I'm thinking about, but I haven't decided.
Speaker 5 (35:48):
Am I allowed to say that Leo is also contemplating
doing some writing.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
Yeah, He's talked about it.
Speaker 5 (35:55):
I am envisioning some sort of collaboration between Gilbert and Leo.
That's what I'm That's what I'm hoping for.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
I would love something like that.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
He's a superb writer. I mean he can reduce you
to tears with his emails and letters. I mean, he's
just such a thoughtful, emotional guy. There's things that he
says sometimes that you know, like I don't really pick
up until I hear it later and go, wow, did
he just really say that? Like he's just a really
interesting storyteller. And it transfers to the to the written
(36:25):
page when he writes too. So I would be honored
to do something like that.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Wow, we will hold our breath.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
And listeners also want to know is the gang getting
back together for another podcast?
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Another case?
Speaker 3 (36:40):
You know, I don't know how to answer that.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
We have a couple of cases that were really interested
in we haven't really had a chance to explore them.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
I would love to.
Speaker 4 (36:48):
I think that this team that I was working with,
it just made this podcast so much better. Everybody brought
in their individual skills and.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Just raise the bar.
Speaker 4 (36:58):
When I look at some of the origin scripts that
I wrote for this while I was just waiting around
for things, I said, well, I might as well start writing.
They are so bad compared to what we had now
when we had collaboration, like with Kara and Britt and
Kelsey and Rucks, everyone came together and just sort of
made everything better and it was honestly, it was a
dream team. I don't know, if Kelsey is like your
(37:19):
your first time experiencing any kind of collaboration, you must
think it's always going to be like this, But I'm
telling you what we had was really really special. In
everybody who's being on the same pages.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
I can recognize that. And yeah, I would love for
the team to come back together for a second season
or another story or something, so certainly open to that.
But if that happens, the plans are still being worked out.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
So the ultimate question is what is the status of
Leo's case? Right now? People are asking does he have
appeals left?
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Someone else asked, you know, the autopsy said that the
killer was left hand, and did is Jeremy left handed?
Wouldn't that be important for you know, some sort of appeal?
Speaker 1 (38:06):
What's going on?
Speaker 4 (38:09):
Yeah, I mean, I'll just address the left handed thing
because it is interesting and Jeremy is left handed, and
you know, I think there's a case to be made,
like how do you stab in a car? The first
we didn't really try to speculate so much about what
exactly happened in the car. Because I think once we
believe all the blood was found outside the car, that's
(38:31):
where her blood had pooled. I believe that she was
killed outside of the car, and you know, she was
stabbed in both the front and the back of her torso,
and so clearly, like you can't really tell where Jeremy
might have been kneeling or standing when he was doing this,
and so to speculate about his left handedness, I don't
think it's really relevant or even something that you could
(38:51):
prove in this particular case.
Speaker 5 (38:53):
So we've asked, we asked the crime scene expert about that,
and apparently, like unless you know the exact position of
how somebody was standing or kneeling as this happened, it's
hard for that to be real evidence of anything. So unfortunately,
even though it is Jeremy is left handed, I'm not
(39:15):
sure that that really can prove anything.
Speaker 4 (39:18):
Yeah, and as far as the case goes, I mean,
he's literally legally out of options. His last appeal had failed.
They appealed it to the Florida Supreme Court, which refused
to hear it, and so he's unless there's some discovery
of new evidence, which really seems kind of unlikely at
this point, because you have physical evidence linking Jeremy to
(39:39):
the scene, and you have multiple confessions, detailed confessions, I'm
not sure what else can arise. You know, I think
the crime scene was gone over in such a sloppy manner.
There was evidence that was left behind that probably could
have linked Jeremy there as well. I'm thinking particularly this
box of cigarettes that was like right not far from
(40:01):
the bloodstains. Jeremy said he was smoking afterwards before he
moved the body.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
We asked him what kind of cigarettes he smoked? Marlborough.
He would never have known that.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
Granted it's a common brand, but there's only one pack
of cigarettes near those bloodstains, and the police photographed it
as if it was evidence, but apparently never collected it. Right,
And so there's a lot of evidence from the crime
scene that you know, Jeremy said, you know, he wrapped
her in in a plastic tarp and dragged her down there. Well,
if you look at the crime scene photos, you can
see several plastic tarps right there in the bushes, in
(40:33):
the garbage, and it.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Was never collected.
Speaker 4 (40:35):
So I don't know, you know, you're ever gonna get
that again. And there's not like some video camera in
a tree back in nineteen eighty seven. So I don't
know where there's going to be any new evidence that's
going to be more significant than having your fingerprints and
multiple confessions linking you to the crime.
Speaker 5 (40:50):
Yeah, but just to clarify, Leo's really his only two
options are being released on parole or some clemency after
and of course with parole that's not the same as
an exoneration. So even if he is released on parole,
he will still be considered a guilty man.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
And does he have a parole date.
Speaker 5 (41:12):
I don't think there's a date so far, but there
should be a hearing some time around March.
Speaker 4 (41:17):
Right, and you know that's going to be that's going
to be an interesting hearing. I'm curious if the state
is going to show up again because the last three
times that Leo has had parole, and you know, he's
he's served his minimum sentence of twenty five years. He's
a model inmate. He's started programs. He says to us,
you know, I had to invent programs to graduate from
(41:38):
in prison. He has like no disciplinary record.
Speaker 3 (41:42):
He's just he's the model inmate.
Speaker 5 (41:44):
Yah. Right, I think it's been like sixteen seventeen years
since he's been written up for any sort of disciplinary thing.
Speaker 4 (41:50):
Yeah, that's and all minors stuff that never happens in prison, right,
But his refusal to apologize and take responsibility for killing
Michelle is what's keeping him behind bars. And every time
he's up for parole, the parole commissioners seem ready to
release him, but then the state attorney or an assistant state
attorney shows up, throws out the autopsy pictures and says,
(42:12):
never apologize, never said I'm sorry, and the commissioners just
sort of flip and change their opinion and deny his parole,
and it's well, will this.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Time be different?
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Now that you know we have again Jeremy confessing on
tape to you guys, do you think this time could
be different?
Speaker 3 (42:28):
I think that the.
Speaker 4 (42:29):
Public awareness of Leo's case could be different. I think
there could be, you know, a media scene at his parole,
like expecting him to be paroled. I think I think
I know a lot of people in Florida who's told
me they want they plan on attending that, and I
wouldn't be surprised if there's a large crowd there to
see Leo get parole, but you.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
Know, it remains to be seen.
Speaker 4 (42:50):
Does the State Attorney's office want to continue to resist
this and to fight this and to sort of double
down on Leo? I think that will be a really
interesting question because that parole is coming up in you know,
just a few months.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Well, I was, I guess, you know, one of the
questions people keep asking is why is the state's attorney
office so adamant on keeping this person in prison when
we have someone confessing, we have the evidence, you know
everything you guys have said, what is going on?
Speaker 4 (43:21):
You know, it's just I think it's just this culture
of protecting convictions and you know, this finality that's sort
of built into the system. There's political reasons for it.
They don't like to lose convictions sometimes. You know, in
this particular case, the assistant state attorney who prosecute is
no longer alive. He was also Jeremy's prosecutor, and so
it's complicated. You know, why is this guy going into
(43:43):
an office by himself, without a tape recorder and a
witness and interviewing Jeremy about this particular crime. It's just like,
I think it's completely unethical, and so I think They're
not only having to defend the conviction of Leo, but
now they have to defend their office because we're accusing
their office of of certain unethical behaviors. And so I
think it's just sort of a way of doubling down.
(44:04):
Just Oh, it's just guys promoting a podcast. It's just
the you know, the media, don't listen to them. We
know what we're doing. They're completely opposed to conviction Integative
Review units in Polk County. You know, they told Kelsey
in an interview that, you know, we get it right,
you know, we don't need the Conviction Integative reviewunonit like
they do in Tampa and Jacksonville.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
That is just so arrogant and just like anyone who
says that, it's like people who are like, I'm not racist,
they're probably racist.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
If you need to announce you're not racist.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
Like, we don't get it, we don't get it wrong,
you probably are getting it wrong right.
Speaker 4 (44:37):
And one of Teresa Hall, we interviewed from the Conviction
Integative Union in Hillsborough County, and she was like, you know,
if if a plane falls out of the sky, there's
going to be an investigation because we don't want that
to happen again. If a doctor, a surgeon loses a
patient on the table that shouldn't die, we want an investigation.
We want to make sure that that doesn't happen again.
(44:57):
With lawyers who are dealing with life and death issues
for some reason, lawyers who sue airlines and you know,
sue doctors and hospitals, but they don't want their own
work looked at. It doesn't make any sense. We know
that they get cases wrong. We have a very healthy
record of exonerations in this country of people who are
wrongly convicted and released from death row. So you are
(45:17):
getting it wrong. Why are you afraid of an investigation?
Speaker 2 (45:20):
Well, and to be clear for listeners, it is particularly
designed that way by prosecutorial immunity qualified immunity. So just
so listeners know, this isn't a fluke. It is designed
so they cannot be held accountable, right, And that's.
Speaker 4 (45:34):
To me is like the most disgusting part of this
thing is like, you know, we looked into the history
of the of the tenth State Attorney's Office, and you know,
we found some cases of the wrongful convictions, and we
found evidence that state attorneys were hiding exculpatory evidence from
the defense, and I just thought about that, like if
and these guys, by the way, they get their name
(45:55):
mentioned in a Florida Supreme Court opinion, they don't lose
their job.
Speaker 3 (45:59):
They can continued to.
Speaker 4 (46:00):
Prosecute after doing this, and you know, sending someone to
prison for the rest of their life wrongfully, there's no consequences.
I was thinking if I was to say, I'm writing
a book like Devil and the Grove and I find
a legal document where all the Groveland boys like confess
to their lawyers and said, we did this, you got
to get us off. And I said, well, that doesn't
fit my narrative.
Speaker 3 (46:19):
I'm hiding that.
Speaker 4 (46:20):
I'm going to put that in a box and never
see it and not have it affect my narrative. You know,
if I got caught doing that, my book would be
pulled from the shelves and I wouldn't get.
Speaker 3 (46:28):
Another publishing contract.
Speaker 4 (46:29):
Right, So I have more accountability than the State Attorney's
office does. And so this whole thing about the integrity
of the courts being more important than you know, the
court of public opinion, I don't buy it.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
Yeah, So obviously this podcast got a lot of people
riled up.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
How can they help Leo?
Speaker 5 (46:49):
Well, we do. We do have a petition out there.
I'm pretty sure it is on the Lava for Good website.
It is a change dot org petition that is was
put together by the Innocence Project of Florida, who represent Leo.
And so what you know, they're calling for, what we
are supporting the call for is a transfer of Leo's
(47:13):
case to one of these districts that has a conviction
integrity review unit, because we think if somebody is able
to really take, you know, a look at the full case,
at all the evidence that, you know, everything that's come
forward over the years, they'll see exactly what we know,
which is that Leo is innocent and that Jeremy Scott
(47:34):
killed Michelle Schofield. And you know, we're hoping that some
sort of independent review can happen. And so the petition, signing,
the petition, getting more attention for that is kind of
what we're we're putting our energy towards right now. I
don't know what else, Gilbert, you you're a little more
tuned into this at this point.
Speaker 4 (47:56):
No, I mean, right now, that seems to be the
thing the stage that we're working for is like, we're
just sort of supporting the Florida Innocence Project's efforts to
get this petition signed. I believe that there will be
other things that will come up as this sort of
aftermath of Bone Valley sort of develops. I think, you know,
it could be in any direction, but we're waiting. There's
(48:18):
a lot of people listening to this in Florida, and
a lot of people have reached out and said they
want to help and they want to do something about this.
And that was very much the feeling I had with
Devil and the Grove of when people started coming up
to me saying we're going to do something about this,
and suddenly this political movement began, and sure enough, then
it comes across the desk of the governor at the time,
and that's when the pardon started.
Speaker 3 (48:37):
So hopefully enough people will.
Speaker 4 (48:39):
Listen and that kind of you know, grassroots effort will
begin again.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
I don't know if this will surprise you guys, but
a lot of people want to help Jeremy as well.
They want to send him stamps. Will you be able
to put out his mailing address so people can do that.
Speaker 4 (48:55):
You know, we're working on that right now there's Jeremy's
in a different situation than Leo because he's in the
solitary confinement and he's not allowed to nobody's allowed to
receive stamps anymore. They cut that back at the at
the Department of Corrections in Florida, so all the mail
has to go to this one clearing house in Tampa
and then it gets delivered to the various prisons and
(49:16):
Jeremy gets a copy of whatever letter you'd send. We're
trying to figure out a way because I've had a
lot of people contact me saying they want to put
some money in his canteen. They heard about, you know,
how broke he was and he couldn't buy soap, and
they just wanted to reach out and help. And so
we're trying to figure out a way to have maybe
a middle person be the collector of this, and we
(49:36):
just haven't been able to solve it yet, but we
are working on it.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
So if people want to stay updated on you know,
the petition, how to contact Jeremy, where do they go?
Speaker 5 (49:47):
So with the petition, if you signed the petition, you
will receive updates if you know if there are any
updates posted to the petition, you will be notified that
if you sign it, so that is also motivation to
sign the petition so you can get those kind of updates.
But we're also Gilbert and I are both on Twitter
(50:10):
and are updating with whenever stuff comes through. Also Lava
for Good. If you follow Lava for Good on social media,
they're definitely going to be posting any updates related to this.
So yeah, just you know, be on the lookout for
stuff on social media and with the petition.
Speaker 4 (50:30):
Hey, Maggie, I have a question for you. What are
you working on right now? What do you have going on?
Speaker 2 (50:35):
Well, we are working on season two of Wrongful Conviction
with Me Maggie Freeling, and that is going to launch
January ninth, and you can find that in the regular
Wrongful Conviction feed with me and Jason and.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
I'm very excited. This season is just some of the
most egregious cases.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
We're really focusing on women, so everyone should listen and yeah,
I can't wait.
Speaker 3 (51:01):
That's great.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Gilbert Kelsey, thank you so much for talking with me.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
Thank you for listening, Thank you for answering listeners questions,
my questions.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
We really appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (51:11):
Oh, Maggie, thanks so much. It's such a pleasure to
actually do an interview with.
Speaker 3 (51:14):
You and really talk to you.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Well, you interviewed me last time, so this has been
Host
Gilbert King
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