February 13, 2024 • 37 mins
Ellie and Scott are joined by actors, playwrights, and co-founders of Mischief Theatre, Henry Lewis and Jonathan Sayer. They discuss their love of the Dunning-Kruger Effect! We learn all about the four stages of knowledge, Scott’s distrust of snobby wine culture, and America's favorite New York pizza joint. Plus, Scott shares with Ellie his love of loading the dishwasher.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
No no, no, no, no no no. Bonne to Love.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I'm Ellie Kemper and I'm Scott Eckert.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
This is our weekly podcast, Born to Love, where on
the week every week we have a guest on. For
the most part, we have a guest on to talk
about something that they love. It can be anything in the.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
World, right, Scott, anything at all. Today we've got wacky one.
Two friends of yours, Ellie Henry Lewis and Jonathan Sayer
are talking to us about how they love the Dunning
Kruger effect. And I will confess I'm a little hazy
on what it is. Ellie, Scott.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
You will not believe me when I told you I
had to look up what that was. The Dunning Krueger effect.
Look it up very quickly. Now pull over to the
side of the road, look it up. Pause the podcast.
We'll explain what it is if you don't have time
to do that. I'm getting ahead of myself, Scott. Let's
focus on the here and now. How on earth has
(01:04):
your week been?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
My My week has been pretty great. It's been spectacular
in its banality. Some weeks, you know, you got a
whole lot of stuff going on, and there's this or that,
and I just know whether there's the recital or got
the big date or whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
This one is just like, are you still going on dates?
What do you do with your life?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Don't don't tell my wife listens to the show. I
was trying not to seem like like an old man, right, yeah, yeah,
but this week is just capital and normal, Ellie. And
just the other day I did something that I realized
I really really enjoy more than I should because most
people would consider.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
It a chore.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
And that is yeah, filling the dishwasher.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Wha wa wah why.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Now, let me be clear, I do not love doing
the dishes, and in fact, I loathe putting the dishes away. Yeah,
but if I've got a stack of plates that are
either pre rinsed unusual situation, or don't need a lot
of rinsing, putting them into the dishwasher, fitting them in
(02:12):
hopefully as many as possible, some people might consider it
overfilling the dish washer. Right, it really scratches an itch, Elliet,
I love it.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
This is not a surprise to me, as any of
our regular listeners will know. You are a lover of puzzles,
you're a lover of logic and you're a lover of life,
and so all of those things to get.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
It basically just puzzles.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
I was like, I got to come up with two more.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I thought you might say tetris. I'm also a tetris.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I was going to bring up tetris separately. You and
I are so on the same wavelength that, of course
we could finish each other's.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Scott, we finish each other's sentences.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
I mean, I'm but you also have ttris. You love puzzles,
and you love completing my sentences. So you can see
all of that coming together to support this theory that
you love. It's not even a theory, it's a fact
that you love filling the dishwasher. Why was this unusual?
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Well, I mean, do you love filling the dishwasher? Eli,
I want to hear it.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Well, it's so specific, Like the conditions you described are specific.
I don't mind if everything is stacked up in the
sink and somehow cleaned. I don't mind it. But Scott,
I gotta tell you, and you are sort of riling
me up a little bit because I got it. I
didn't get a new dishwasher. Michael was in charge of
the dishwasher selection, and that's where I went wrong. He
(03:44):
got a dishwasher that I don't love.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
Oh no, I know it.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
He got it about two months ago and I am
still adjusting to its curves.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
It takes a long time. It takes a long time.
But once you figure out the best way to fit
it in. Oh boy, I think that your enjoyment's gonna
increase l because your old dishwasher. Imagine your favorite dishwasher.
Wasn't it fun? You knew everything goes you put those bowls,
they sort of nestle together. And the opposite of this
(04:15):
is seeing the way that my wife fills the dishwasher,
which is just chaos, right, It's like that's not where
the things go. But then cleaning it up. Actually, maybe
now that I say this, I didn't make this connection
until speaking out loud.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Just now.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
What I really love is seeing the chaotic dishwasher yeah,
and then being oh no, no, I can do this better,
and then rearranging it to fit more dishes in. You
love that, well, Actually I don't love. I do loathe
when she's fouled it up because it brings me. No,
I understand, it hurts my soul to see it done
(04:49):
so badly, but putting it together. I like it organizing,
but just getting the stuff all nice.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
None of this surprises me because you're an organized person
in with a touch of obsessiveness, and you are very smart.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
That spells dishwasher baby. Albert Einstein loved two things, the
curvature of space and dishwashers. I'll tell you what.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Nothing makes me feel more unmoored, untethered than filling someone
else's dishwasher. I'm thinking specifically being at my parents' house
over the holidays. I was like a chicken with no head.
I had no sense of where things were supposed to go.
I would attempt to put something somewhere. I came back
it had been moved. I didn't understand the layout, the structure,
(05:39):
the most efficient way to load. And by the way, Scott,
I was there two full weeks.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I never learned, never learned it takes longer than two weeks.
You've had this new one that Michael bought for two
months and you're still working.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
On, still finding its nooks and crannies.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
What is it about this new one that is so aggravating?
Speaker 4 (05:56):
Ellie?
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Oh, the second level is too hot? And I can
see that it can be lowered, and we cannot locate
the manual to find how to lower it. And I'm
sure I can look it up. Whenever you're loading the dishwasher,
it becomes a relevant issue, but as soon as you're done,
you forget about it.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
You know what.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
I should look it up as soon as we wrap
this podcast, just to get it over with. But it's
just too high, and so it messes up the levels
of the plates.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Mm hmm. I see well. As a dishwasher aficionado, I
think that I've learned something about you today, Ellie, and
that is you got small plates and really big bulls.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
He yea, yeah, yeah aah, Scott. You could hear some
excitement dripping out of my voice, and that's because I
am so excited to talk to these guys today. Henry
Lewis and Jonathan Sayer are oh, excuse me, Olivier Award
winning actors and playwrights. Okay, Along with Henry Shields, they
(06:55):
are the co founders of Mischief Comedy and they have written, produced,
and starred in Play That Goes Wrong, Peter Pan Goes Wrong,
Magic Goes Wrong, and There Goes Wrong show. Henry and
Jonathan have just wrapped their brand new Half Play Half
Magic show Mind Mangler in New York City and they
will be performing the show in London's West End this spring.
(07:16):
Outside of Mischief Comedy, Henry co hosts the British game
show Ridiculous and Jonathan is the co chair of the
semi professional football team Ashton United FC. Now you might
be wondering how I know these guys, and if you
haven't put the pieces together, it's from when I made
my Broadway debut as the narrator if Peter Pan goes wrong.
(07:38):
They are two of the sweetest, most humble, very funny
people that I've met, and today they are going to
be talking about their love of the Dunning Krueger effect.
So stay put. When we come back, we're gonna chat
with Henry and Jonathan. Okay, everybody, we're back as promised.
(08:03):
We are sitting here with the hilarious, the very funny,
and in my words, the kindest Henry Lewis and Jonathan Sayer.
Welcome to our show.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
You guys, Hello, Thanks for having us on. Thank you
for saying we were kinds.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
You guys, it is I think it's a very defining
characteristic of both of you, because I felt so welcomed
into the Peter Pan Goes Wrong Fold, and that is
because of you guys. Everybody was so warm and friendly
and accepting of my weird ways. And that begins at
the top, so that begins with you. So thank you
(08:40):
for doing that.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
I'm so glad that you had a good experience and
a good time. It was such a glass at you.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
I mean, you've still not left the fold, because obviously
the WhatsApp group continues, it's still pretty active. Sometimes I
think any still in that she must just be like,
oh my god, this just photos of John at a
piece to us through I'll be like, I'm back in.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
It keeps me young because you guys are devoted. What's
that group?
Speaker 4 (09:07):
I'm on?
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Like what six what'sapp groups? And five of them are
like mom WhatsApp groups and they couldn't be more boring.
Sorry moms, but it's true. And then I get to
dip my toe into the Peter Pan Goes Wrong, which
I don't think it's called that. I won't mention what
the actual name is because it's not appropriate. I think
there's a there's a clinical term in there. I think
(09:28):
the word penis is in there isn't it.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
I didn't do the title. I'm not guilty of that.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
I didn't even know. Yeah, before too long. You know,
if you do well in this interview, you might be
added to the group.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
So do well.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
I have the feelings about that. I don't even have
what's appened?
Speaker 1 (09:46):
You don't know what's app What do you do with
your life?
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Scott?
Speaker 2 (09:51):
I write handwritten letters. Apparently I'm like I'm living in
the eighteenth century. Uh, I have to pump the brakes
on this. You guys came on to talk about this
might be the single most interesting topic that we've had
on the podcast. We talked Ellie and I about even
(10:12):
how it's pronounced. It's the Dunning Krueger effect. Is that right?
Speaker 4 (10:16):
That's correct?
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Can I give a bit of context before we start
about it? Both to come on the show, and we
were asked to talk about a mutual interest that we
have outside of work, and me and Henry are best pals.
We've known each other for fifteen years now. Henry's the
best man at my wedding. We spend a lot of
time together and at that moment when you said, talk
(10:40):
about a mutual interest. We realized that we have nothing
in common outside. So really we went through like everything
and Henry was like this and I don't really like that,
Mate was.
Speaker 4 (10:53):
I don't like that job.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
And then we realized that this is one of the
few things that we actually both have an interest in.
But I would say that our knowledge is not tremendous.
So whether we're going to be to talk about this
for an hour, we're going to have a go, but
we'll see, we're gonna have a go.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
I have lots of questions. I'm uninformed, but I have
opinions about this effect. Also, I am curious to know, like,
before being asked to come up with a mutual love
or common love, did you have you discussed this or
did you just stumble upon it randomly?
Speaker 4 (11:28):
It is something we have discussed, yeah, quite a lot
in the past, and it's something that we have since
having learned about it. It's something that quite often in
life comes up, something will happen and you'll be like,
oh wow, that's a good example of the Dunning Kruger effects.
That's kind of partly why we wanted to share it,
because we're basically it's a psychological principle, it's a cognitive bias.
(11:49):
And I think it's quite fun to learn about different
cognitive biases because it tells us a lot about ourselves.
And if you know about them, you can start in
your own life perhaps try to try to find ways
of avoiding them and falling into they's chapter. It's just useful.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Absolutely to explain. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm pretending you'd be
an experian and I'm not, so I'm sort of an
example of it.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Tell us what it is, Okay.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
So the Dunning Kruger effects basically is the phenomenon where
if you know a lot about a subject, you are
likely therefore to know how little you know because that
subject is massive and vast, so actually that might make
you under confident when explaining it. However, if you know
(12:34):
nothing about a subject except for a few headlines of information,
you think that subject is very small, and therefore you
believe you know everything about it and are likely to
speak with a huge amount of confidence about something that
actually you don't know anything about it. And I think
it's quite a good tool for just like work and
knowing yourself better. And I think sometimes it's healthy and
(12:56):
good to have a bit of doubt and be like,
maybe I don't know anything about this. When you feel
really so and ensure about something, maybe that's a good
point to say, well, maybe that's because I don't have
a lot of nuanced information and actually I'm a bit
ignorant here. And then also I think it just explains
quite a lot of things in the world at the
moment where we all have access to all the information
(13:18):
but no time to read past the headline. So we
come up with opinions that are quite like, well it's this,
isn't it, But actually we don't know anything about it,
so we should all just shush and listen and read
and potentially in me and Hen coming on this show
to talk about the Dunning Kruger effect. That is a
good example of the Dunn Kruger effects, which which I
(13:39):
think is quite funny. That's funny.
Speaker 4 (13:41):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Absolutely, it's many layers wrapped within layers.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
Here.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
What you just described, Jonathan is so pertinent, because that
is exactly it. Everybody has a voice, everybody has a platform,
everybody can talk and be an expert on whatever subject
they choose without knowing anything about it. We've all fallen
prey to this at least I have, I mean.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Have you guys, yes, on an almost daily basis, I
mentioned absolutely for sure, you know, to use our work
as example, you know, we run a company called Mischief.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
There was definitely kind of stuff that I didn't know
that I thought I did because I didn't understand the
breadth of the kind of the field. And I don't
know in relation to that, I don't know, like it's
necessarily always a terrible thing. Sometimes not knowing about stuff
can mean that you run at things with a kind
of more enthusiasm and abandon whereas when you know more
about it, you know more of the pitfalls, you've got
more experience, You're therefore maybe more waary, you take less risks. Perhaps,
(14:35):
So I think there's something to be said in some contexts,
I suppose it sort of ignorance is bliss kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Yeah, you're sort of fearless perhaps when you're acting that way.
But the key difference here with the Dunning Kruger effect
is that the person doesn't say, oh, I'm aware that
I'm not totally an expert in this, but I'm going
to proceed as I am. But with the Dunning Kruger effect,
this person is not self aware enough to know exactly.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Oh, I actually have no Iaea, yeah, totally.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
It connects to the four stages of knowledge, right, John,
you probably know this better than me.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
I've not even got one stage of knowledge.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
Mates.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
So you have the unconscious you're unconsciously incompetent, so you're
incompetent and you don't even know you are. And then
you learn that you are in competence, you become consciously incompetent,
and then eventually you become consciously competent, and then eventually
you become unconsciously competent.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
You've got that.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Knowledge in the back. You don't have to think about it.
That's just part of you, Jonathan.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
You knew every single stage of knowledge intimately. And by
the way, I know I'm going to say this, so
I'll say it now. Doesn't everybody want to call it
the Diane Kruger effect. I'm not even that familiar with
her work, but she's an actress, right right, Yes, If
I call it the Diane Gruger effect, that's why perfect.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Are there any sort of touchstone examples, either from your
own life or that you've read about, that sort of
illustrate the principle I have one in my mind that
I want to ask you about. But before I get
to it, I wanted to just is there a particular
funny one like aha Dunning crews.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Well like the origin of the Dunning Kruger effect. One
reason why they came up with this theory is in
nineteen ninety five, two guys robbed a bank, a couple
of banks in Pittsburgh, and they ran into the bank
and they didn't do anything to disguise their face. They
didn't wear balaclavas, they didn't do anything to hide their identities,
(16:45):
even though there were cameras everywhere. And the reason is
because they covered their faces in lemon juice. And they
were arrested shortly after robbing the bank because obviously they
had on the footage of their faces. And as one
of them was put into the cop car late he remarked,
but I wore the juice. I wore the juice. And
(17:05):
the reason why he was so irritated to have been
caught is because what he believed is that because you
can make him visible ink out of lemon juice, he
thought the lomon juice would hide his face from the cameras.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Oh my, I've never heard of that in my life,
and it sounds like something out of a movie. It's fantastic.
I mean, this guy was so dumb? Am I wrong? Everybody? Nobody?
How else do I describe it?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
I think we all agree that's a dumb thing. That's
kind of the whole point of the story is It's incredible.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Right, It was a dumb thing to do that. You
couldn't even imagine the level and thinking. If this is
a man who thinks lemon juice will disguise his face,
how is he competent enough to like rob the bank
in the first place. I just don't understand that.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
I suppose that the chemistry of why let juice on
a paper disappears and when it comes back under lights
very basic grasp that concept. He understood quite a lot
of stuff, but obviously he had a lot of blind spots.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Can I just say, what we're all probably thinking of
is the bleach during COVID. I mean it's a similar
logic there. The lemon juice will disguise his face because
it works on paper, and bleach will destroy COVID because
it destroys germs on counter surfaces. So anyway, similar similar approach.
Am I getting too at the show. This is our
(18:34):
weekly politics, but anyway, it can be dangerous.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, I'm interested to hear Jonathan and Henry's take on
this because I don't know that it's exactly the same
as the Dunning Kruger effect, but I think that they
are related. And it's a personal pet peeve of mine,
and it is wine tasting. My view of wine tasting
is that there are some alias who can tell you
(19:01):
what year and what region what like. I believe that
there are people who've trained themselves to have that ability,
but I also believe that practically none of us fit
into that category, and that it's all in our imaginations.
Like our ability to discriminate between different levels of wine
is determined almost entirely by how much they cost. And
(19:23):
I think I'm backed up by this. They do like
wine taste tests and stuff like they give people cheap
wine and they prefer the cheap wine or whatever. The
craziest one is that most people, I think this is true,
if you blindfold them and you give them room temperature
white wine and room temperature red wine, they cannot tell
a difference. Wow, Yes, I I want to do this
(19:45):
at my next dinner party. Is like let's actually see
because based on what I'm aware of, like half the
people at the dinner party will fail. So to me,
that's a Dunning Kruger effect type of thing, because they
don't really know very much about wine, but they think
that they do, and they think that the two hundred
dollars bottle is so much better than the twenty dollars
bottle or whatever. Right, But it's also a societal phenomenon
(20:08):
because everybody wants to be good at wine. I don't obviously,
but just read it's fine, affordable, read the second cheapest one.
But Jonathan Henry, is that in the area of Dunning
Kruger or is that a different phenomenon altogether?
Speaker 4 (20:26):
I think that actually is. I think any overconfident amateur
I would say the wine tastere is for sure, unless
you are someone who spent years and years learning about it. Yeah,
for sure, that's the Dunning Kruger effect going on there. Actually,
there's a great quote is this David Dunning, who one
of the people who did the study. He says, not
knowing the scope of your own ignorance is part of
the human condition. The problem with it is we see
(20:49):
it in other people and we don't see it in ourselves.
The first rule of the Dunning Kruger Club is you
don't know you're a member of the Dunning Kruger Club.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
When did you first become aware, Jonathan and Henry of
this phenomenon. Did it happen within the development of Mischief
your theater company, or did you know about this independently
or did you like discover it together?
Speaker 4 (21:12):
I think I went to the Edinburgh Science Festival and
there was a talk I remember learning about it. Then John,
was there something else as well?
Speaker 3 (21:18):
I listened to an episode of This American Life that
was all about the Dunning Kruger effect. And then a
week later You've gone to see that lecture and I
was like, oh my gosh, I've literally just been reading
about that. And from there on a weird mutual interest
slash love started.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
And you know you had a topic for the podcast.
I want to know what the other Actually I do
know what the other candidates for what you loved was,
because I saw the list that you submitted.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
More regular stuff.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yes, I don't know what you and I it is interesting.
I don't even know what my husband and I would
come up with as like mutual Yes, we both love
our children.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
Beyond that, I'm like, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
It's hard when you're so close to a person.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Particularly outside of work, outside of like comedy. We were
just like the only things that unite him and myself
are a theory about cognitive bias and pizza.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Yeah, Ellie, the fact that you brought up your relationship
with your husband. Now, I'm thinking about the Dunning Kruger
effect through the prism of your relationship with someone else,
because you also go through those same four stages. Right.
It's like you, of course you don't know them, and
then you meet them and you're aware that you don't
(22:37):
know them, but then there's this sort of interim step
where you maybe think that you know them. Or my wife,
I'm just gonna slag on her a little bit, but
my wife, she'll meet someone like two times. Actually you
do this too, Ellie, absolutely convinced that you like have
pegged them.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Oh I have.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
It's like, oh, my intuition is this. I know exactly
what this person's gonna do. And my wife, sorry, Vanessa,
often wrong. Right, that's the Dunning of Kruger effect for people.
It's like the first impressions for people.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Often I have to interrupt you right away because I
couldn't disagree with you more. Here's my dunning Kruger or
lack thereof. I know that I'm not good at most things.
One thing I know I'm good at is assessing someone's
personality from the first minute I meet there. And give
me anyone and I'll tell you. I'll tell you if
(23:31):
they're rotten egg or not.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
I really want to know what was your first, very
blunt assessment of me then when you met me?
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Both keep negative people positive, A total keeper.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Jonathan's secret has been exposed. All of our listeners now
know the thing that he's.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
A pepera.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
That's wrong.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Wait, you must tell us what does peoper mean in
the UK?
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Is that what I think? Imagine? It would be like
a peeping tom? Yeah, like like somebody who.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
I was like, I'm telling you this guy's a peeper. No,
he's not a peoper. A keeper, a keeper, a gem.
Both of you and I'm right, you're keepers and you're
not peepers. But say what you I had your number
from day one, and I'm not going to go through
the long list of people who I know aren't keepers.
But the list is long, and I am really good
at identifying them, do you know, are you guys not?
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Well, wait, but if you're just saying I'm going to
like this person or I'm not, then I bet. Yeah,
your instincts are probably pretty good, but like if you
assume much more about them, I feel like those would
be less reliable. Like, oh, this person seems really smart,
it turns out they're an idiot.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Yet again, Diane Krueger. No, but that I think that
you're right, because I guess you can assess whether someone's
like a good egg or a bad egg. But nothing
is like more delightful than when I do peg someone
for being a snob and then it turns out they're
you know, shy or whatever. That is sort of a
(25:20):
great revelation. So I take everything I said right back again.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
There's a pretty cool book called Blink by Malcolm Gladwell
about the opposite of the dyang, the Dunning Kruger effect.
But like that's all about how very often your gut
instinct is something you should really trust. It's all very complex.
But because that's a throwing the mix as well, I
definitely can't talk about that book at length because I
read it about seven years ago. So that would be
Dunning Kuger effect if I just burst into all that
(25:44):
book's about.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
But the more that we discussed this, the more we
realize what we don't know, which is really the Dunning
Kruger effect.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Work a Socrates quote for you, if you're in the
market for one. I know that I'm intelligent because I
know that I know nothing.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
Oh thanks, he called it.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
He called that Tenny Kruger effect thousands of years ago.
Smart God, that.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Guy knew what he was talking about, Socrates.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Did you guys?
Speaker 1 (26:14):
We would love to play a game with you that
we play with all of our guests. It's called love
It or Loath It? And when we get back, we
will play that game. Okay, guys, we're back with Henry
(26:39):
Lewis Jonathan Sayer. We are going to play one of
our favorite games, one of our only games, in fact,
the only game we play, Love It or Loathe It?
Henry and Jonathan Scott and I are going to throw
some items your way, subjects, activities, games, and you tell
us whether you love that thing or you loathe that thing.
There is no room for nuance.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
It can be no in between.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Okay, all right, Love It or loath it escape rooms,
love it, knew.
Speaker 4 (27:07):
It, why very much enjoying it. Escape rooms, John will
have potentially a different opinion. I think they're I think
they are enormous fun and I've always kind of liked
puzzles and stuff and mysteries and its atmosphere and stuff
is fun and when you go to a good one,
it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
That's fantastic, Jonathan.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
In the world of not doing nuanced then I have
to say loads like I don't enjoy the kind of
the crazed effect it has on people. I prefer just
a nice chat rather than just being like, what is
the cold looking at the folks like, that's not my idea.
There's a red book and a yellow but maybe it's
some kind of code. It's just maybe.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Maybe Ellie, have you ever done an escape room once?
And did you love it or love it? I love it?
Speaker 1 (28:00):
No, it was too urgent, there were too many cooks.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
It was.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Yeah, I'm a loader.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Did you escape? Maybe maybe you would have enjoyed it more.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
We escaped, but.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Through no help from me. I mean I just sat.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
And it's not a very shameless individual, but I'm going
to be shameless for him, and just so that Henry
also has a company called Mystery Agency and they make
escape rooms in a box and they're super cool. You
should check them out. I love them, even though I
loath escape rooms.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah, escape room in a box. So I signed me up,
all right? Love it or loads it? Beans for breakfast?
Speaker 4 (28:42):
Load that? What kind of beans are we talking? Like?
Bait beans in like a full English breakfast would be
my experience of beans for breakfast, And it's a high
risk thing because it can, really the beans can infiltrate
all aspects of the It's okay a bit, but you
can't have beans on the plate because they're going to
(29:02):
get involved in all the bits of breakfast, and you
don't want them involved in all the bits. So I
would say probably not unless maybe the separate, but probably low.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
It's really yeah, I think we're thinking baked beans on
this one.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, Jonathan, do you have such an anti British take
on the breakfast beans as well?
Speaker 3 (29:18):
I love the baked bean, but I love the gobanzo bean.
And I have chickpeas every morning for breakfast almost no,
John I do. Every morning I have chickpeas and toast
because it's very good.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
It's so good for you pease and toast together.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
I like mash it all up in oil and I
put like celery in and it's kind of like a
vegan tuna kind of thing. And I find that delicious breakfast.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
That is a it's a very nourishing, healthy breakfast. John,
this is that's a great idea.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Why am I mad about it?
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Ellie was about to agree with the word delicious, stopped
yourself midword and correct it. Changed it to nourishing and healthy.
We can't agree. Then, it does sound nourishing and healthy.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Okay, love it or loathe it?
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Ted Lasso love it.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
It's hard to say because I haven't seen all of it.
It wasn't my favorite thing that I've never seen, but
I can see why people love it for sure.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
No, you're not allowed to be nuanced that you're not
allowed to show.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
I have to say that I load it. I'm just
not a huge sports fan, and obviously that's a big
part of it.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Henry, we have the same take. Ted, last Jonathan, you
like soccer.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
I love soccer. Your door the foot like I absolutely
I love football.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
It is like it is.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
I don't know why I said that was Weird's kind
of unfortunate that I said that, But no, I love football.
It's exceptionally important to me. I find that it nourishes
my soul in a way that the chickpea breakfast nourishes
my hearts and muscles. No, it's I just not adore football.
I adore sport. I've actually got a Dunning Kruger kind
(31:01):
of story about myself. So, my father and my grandfather
and indeed my great grandfather all played semi professional soccer.
And when I was young, I would go to watch
a team called Ashton United, who are in the seventh
division of football. And that team started to have some
(31:22):
financial difficulties a few years back and did a tweet
saying we need some help. Does anyone want to get involved?
And I got involved, and I had a very Dunning
Kruger thing of just being like, all the things that
I know about running a theater company will neatly transpose
into how you would run a soccer club. And I
became the owner and co chair of Ashton United football Club,
(31:43):
a position that I hold with my dad, and we've
run that football club for five years and the first
year I was just like, oh my god, I know nothing.
What am I doing, and it's been this really crazy
experience where I was at the start, I knew so
little about the main thing that it does such a
difference between him watching football and being like, oh, they
should have done this, and then actually doing it and
(32:04):
being like, oh my god, I don't know important say.
I'm not the coach, I'm the I'm the Hannah Wardingham
figure in ten rights. But that there is a fantastic
example of Dunn Kluge in myself, like just assumed because
I only knew the headlines of football that I had
strong opinions and it was dead simple. And it is
anything but it's super hard, super stressful, super nuanced, and
(32:24):
I'm a rollercoaster.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
John's written an excellent and very funny book about his
experiences called Nowhere to Run, and it is hilarious.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Jonathan, I cannot wait.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
I love this.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
I've get a great book recommendation escape Room in a Box.
This is the most fruitful lover love we've ever done.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Love it aloa that child actors what have you?
Speaker 4 (32:45):
Was one, Yeah, that's very true.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Well, John, well you got Oh god, I don't know love.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
I think this is very harsh to know the child
actors isn't it. And I love the movie The Kids
with Charlie Chaplin, one of my favorite ye and the
kid in that is obviously tremendously important. Do you know
who that kid went on to play in the movie
The Kid? He is the original Uncle Festa.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
No, I didn't know that, and I'm glad that he
had enjoyed success in the industry.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Henry.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
I love child actors, unfortunately, not because I hate children,
although obviously I do. But I don't know. I worry
that there's like, you know, like a sadness, particularly if
you have a big career when you're young. I don't know,
is it too much too soon? Do you end up
kind of jaded or not where you quite want to be?
Maybe later in life, I.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Don't know, stunted development?
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Right?
Speaker 4 (33:42):
Maybe? I'm sure there are many child actors who are
totally healthier, well adjusted, but I think I'm very well adjusted.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
For Breakfast, he's fine, Okay.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
He's doing fine. I completely agree with you, And it's
nobody's fall. Maybe it's the parents' fault. Jonathan. You are
the exception, and so is the kid in Charlie Chaplin's
The Kid, Because uh yeah, most of the time. It
feels like you should be at school, you should be
playing with your friends. But there are parts in shows
(34:15):
and movies and television that call for children. So I
don't know what the answer is except try to avoid
writing stories about children. Maybe I don't know what the
answer is. But I also love them.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
All, right, guys, well and love it or low? The
last one on a New York classic Sabarrows.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
I don't know what one is.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
I'm sorry, Oh my god, I love that. You don't
know at all. It's a pretty crummy piece.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
It's an awful pizza change right, Wow, Okay, I haven't.
Speaker 4 (34:51):
I've never been. I should. I'll have to go then
before I leave.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Definitely don't. It's s B A R R O. And
where do you find it? Sparrows at Penn Station, maybe
around Rockefeller Center.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Maybe there's probably one of the airports.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Yeah, you want to avoid it at all costs. And
I was interested to find out if it turned out
you loved it, which also would have been fine, because
if you like pizza, you probably know a thing or
two about it.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
What a fantastic kind of way to end, which kind
of full circle that the other subject we suggested to
talk about was New York pizza, and it has been
highlighted at the very end. The thing that we thought
we knew a lot about, we've immediately been confronted with
a complete lack of knowledge. We are now consciously and
competent when it comes to our knowledge of American pizza.
What a hilarious to end.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
That was our aim. We were slowly building towards it
over the course of the bad Gas and we stop
the landing. Joathan and Henry, thank you so much for
taking the time to be on our show. Is there
anything specific you would like to plug right now or promote.
Speaker 4 (35:55):
We're currently doing Mind Bangla, a night of Tragic Illusion.
We head off to the West End where we open up.
The apologis from the eleventh of March. There is that
if you want to come and see a mischief show
and also if you're ever in London, it's a great
year to go and see the Plane that Goes Wrong,
because it's a planet goes wrong. It's tenth Birthday in
the West End.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Happy birthday.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
I saw a play that Goes Wrong with my children
just a couple of months ago on the West Day.
Oh it's spectacular, so anyone visiting London should check it out.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
If you're in America and you want to see the
play That Goes Wrong, that's still running at New World
Stages as well, and that cast are remarkably good to do.
Check it out in New York as well.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
There is no shortage of laps around here.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
You guys.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
It was so much fun talking to you. We are
so grateful to you. You put out so much comedy
and light into the world. And I think we all
learned a little something today.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Which is it?
Speaker 1 (36:46):
We don't know as much as we all thought. Henry Jonathan,
thank you so much for being here. It's been a pleasure, pleasure, Thank.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
You so much. I had a blast.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Thanks for listening to Born to Love. We'll be back
next week with brand new things that we love.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
We want to hear from you. Leave us a review
in Apple Podcasts and tell us what you love. We
might even ask one of our guests in an upcoming
love it or Load It.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Born to Love is hosted and created by Elli Kemper
and Scott Ecker.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Our executive producer is Aaron Coffman. Our producers are Shina
Ozaki and Zoe Danklab.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Born to Love is part of Will Ferrell's Big Money
Players Network in collaboration with iHeart Podcasts. Special thanks to
Hans Sonny.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Rachel Kaplan and Adrianna Cassiano
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Michael Fails, Alex Korl, and Baheed Frazier
No no, no, no, no no no. Bonne to Love.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I'm Ellie Kemper and I'm Scott Eckert.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
This is our weekly podcast, Born to Love, where on
the week every week we have a guest on. For
the most part, we have a guest on to talk
about something that they love. It can be anything in the.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
World, right, Scott, anything at all. Today we've got wacky one.
Two friends of yours, Ellie Henry Lewis and Jonathan Sayer
are talking to us about how they love the Dunning
Kruger effect. And I will confess I'm a little hazy
on what it is. Ellie, Scott.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
You will not believe me when I told you I
had to look up what that was. The Dunning Krueger effect.
Look it up very quickly. Now pull over to the
side of the road, look it up. Pause the podcast.
We'll explain what it is if you don't have time
to do that. I'm getting ahead of myself, Scott. Let's
focus on the here and now. How on earth has
(01:04):
your week been?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
My My week has been pretty great. It's been spectacular
in its banality. Some weeks, you know, you got a
whole lot of stuff going on, and there's this or that,
and I just know whether there's the recital or got
the big date or whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
This one is just like, are you still going on dates?
What do you do with your life?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Don't don't tell my wife listens to the show. I
was trying not to seem like like an old man, right, yeah, yeah,
but this week is just capital and normal, Ellie. And
just the other day I did something that I realized
I really really enjoy more than I should because most
people would consider.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
It a chore.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
And that is yeah, filling the dishwasher.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Wha wa wah why.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Now, let me be clear, I do not love doing
the dishes, and in fact, I loathe putting the dishes away. Yeah,
but if I've got a stack of plates that are
either pre rinsed unusual situation, or don't need a lot
of rinsing, putting them into the dishwasher, fitting them in
(02:12):
hopefully as many as possible, some people might consider it
overfilling the dish washer. Right, it really scratches an itch, Elliet,
I love it.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
This is not a surprise to me, as any of
our regular listeners will know. You are a lover of puzzles,
you're a lover of logic and you're a lover of life,
and so all of those things to get.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
It basically just puzzles.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
I was like, I got to come up with two more.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I thought you might say tetris. I'm also a tetris.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I was going to bring up tetris separately. You and
I are so on the same wavelength that, of course
we could finish each other's.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Scott, we finish each other's sentences.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
I mean, I'm but you also have ttris. You love puzzles,
and you love completing my sentences. So you can see
all of that coming together to support this theory that
you love. It's not even a theory, it's a fact
that you love filling the dishwasher. Why was this unusual?
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Well, I mean, do you love filling the dishwasher? Eli,
I want to hear it.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Well, it's so specific, Like the conditions you described are specific.
I don't mind if everything is stacked up in the
sink and somehow cleaned. I don't mind it. But Scott,
I gotta tell you, and you are sort of riling
me up a little bit because I got it. I
didn't get a new dishwasher. Michael was in charge of
the dishwasher selection, and that's where I went wrong. He
(03:44):
got a dishwasher that I don't love.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
Oh no, I know it.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
He got it about two months ago and I am
still adjusting to its curves.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
It takes a long time. It takes a long time.
But once you figure out the best way to fit
it in. Oh boy, I think that your enjoyment's gonna
increase l because your old dishwasher. Imagine your favorite dishwasher.
Wasn't it fun? You knew everything goes you put those bowls,
they sort of nestle together. And the opposite of this
(04:15):
is seeing the way that my wife fills the dishwasher,
which is just chaos, right, It's like that's not where
the things go. But then cleaning it up. Actually, maybe
now that I say this, I didn't make this connection
until speaking out loud.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Just now.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
What I really love is seeing the chaotic dishwasher yeah,
and then being oh no, no, I can do this better,
and then rearranging it to fit more dishes in. You
love that, well, Actually I don't love. I do loathe
when she's fouled it up because it brings me. No,
I understand, it hurts my soul to see it done
(04:49):
so badly, but putting it together. I like it organizing,
but just getting the stuff all nice.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
None of this surprises me because you're an organized person
in with a touch of obsessiveness, and you are very smart.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
That spells dishwasher baby. Albert Einstein loved two things, the
curvature of space and dishwashers. I'll tell you what.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Nothing makes me feel more unmoored, untethered than filling someone
else's dishwasher. I'm thinking specifically being at my parents' house
over the holidays. I was like a chicken with no head.
I had no sense of where things were supposed to go.
I would attempt to put something somewhere. I came back
it had been moved. I didn't understand the layout, the structure,
(05:39):
the most efficient way to load. And by the way, Scott,
I was there two full weeks.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I never learned, never learned it takes longer than two weeks.
You've had this new one that Michael bought for two
months and you're still working.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
On, still finding its nooks and crannies.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
What is it about this new one that is so aggravating?
Speaker 4 (05:56):
Ellie?
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Oh, the second level is too hot? And I can
see that it can be lowered, and we cannot locate
the manual to find how to lower it. And I'm
sure I can look it up. Whenever you're loading the dishwasher,
it becomes a relevant issue, but as soon as you're done,
you forget about it.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
You know what.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
I should look it up as soon as we wrap
this podcast, just to get it over with. But it's
just too high, and so it messes up the levels
of the plates.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Mm hmm. I see well. As a dishwasher aficionado, I
think that I've learned something about you today, Ellie, and
that is you got small plates and really big bulls.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
He yea, yeah, yeah aah, Scott. You could hear some
excitement dripping out of my voice, and that's because I
am so excited to talk to these guys today. Henry
Lewis and Jonathan Sayer are oh, excuse me, Olivier Award
winning actors and playwrights. Okay, Along with Henry Shields, they
(06:55):
are the co founders of Mischief Comedy and they have written, produced,
and starred in Play That Goes Wrong, Peter Pan Goes Wrong,
Magic Goes Wrong, and There Goes Wrong show. Henry and
Jonathan have just wrapped their brand new Half Play Half
Magic show Mind Mangler in New York City and they
will be performing the show in London's West End this spring.
(07:16):
Outside of Mischief Comedy, Henry co hosts the British game
show Ridiculous and Jonathan is the co chair of the
semi professional football team Ashton United FC. Now you might
be wondering how I know these guys, and if you
haven't put the pieces together, it's from when I made
my Broadway debut as the narrator if Peter Pan goes wrong.
(07:38):
They are two of the sweetest, most humble, very funny
people that I've met, and today they are going to
be talking about their love of the Dunning Krueger effect.
So stay put. When we come back, we're gonna chat
with Henry and Jonathan. Okay, everybody, we're back as promised.
(08:03):
We are sitting here with the hilarious, the very funny,
and in my words, the kindest Henry Lewis and Jonathan Sayer.
Welcome to our show.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
You guys, Hello, Thanks for having us on. Thank you
for saying we were kinds.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
You guys, it is I think it's a very defining
characteristic of both of you, because I felt so welcomed
into the Peter Pan Goes Wrong Fold, and that is
because of you guys. Everybody was so warm and friendly
and accepting of my weird ways. And that begins at
the top, so that begins with you. So thank you
(08:40):
for doing that.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
I'm so glad that you had a good experience and
a good time. It was such a glass at you.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
I mean, you've still not left the fold, because obviously
the WhatsApp group continues, it's still pretty active. Sometimes I
think any still in that she must just be like,
oh my god, this just photos of John at a
piece to us through I'll be like, I'm back in.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
It keeps me young because you guys are devoted. What's
that group?
Speaker 4 (09:07):
I'm on?
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Like what six what'sapp groups? And five of them are
like mom WhatsApp groups and they couldn't be more boring.
Sorry moms, but it's true. And then I get to
dip my toe into the Peter Pan Goes Wrong, which
I don't think it's called that. I won't mention what
the actual name is because it's not appropriate. I think
there's a there's a clinical term in there. I think
(09:28):
the word penis is in there isn't it.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
I didn't do the title. I'm not guilty of that.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
I didn't even know. Yeah, before too long. You know,
if you do well in this interview, you might be
added to the group.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
So do well.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
I have the feelings about that. I don't even have
what's appened?
Speaker 1 (09:46):
You don't know what's app What do you do with
your life?
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Scott?
Speaker 2 (09:51):
I write handwritten letters. Apparently I'm like I'm living in
the eighteenth century. Uh, I have to pump the brakes
on this. You guys came on to talk about this
might be the single most interesting topic that we've had
on the podcast. We talked Ellie and I about even
(10:12):
how it's pronounced. It's the Dunning Krueger effect. Is that right?
Speaker 4 (10:16):
That's correct?
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Can I give a bit of context before we start
about it? Both to come on the show, and we
were asked to talk about a mutual interest that we
have outside of work, and me and Henry are best pals.
We've known each other for fifteen years now. Henry's the
best man at my wedding. We spend a lot of
time together and at that moment when you said, talk
(10:40):
about a mutual interest. We realized that we have nothing
in common outside. So really we went through like everything
and Henry was like this and I don't really like that,
Mate was.
Speaker 4 (10:53):
I don't like that job.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
And then we realized that this is one of the
few things that we actually both have an interest in.
But I would say that our knowledge is not tremendous.
So whether we're going to be to talk about this
for an hour, we're going to have a go, but
we'll see, we're gonna have a go.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
I have lots of questions. I'm uninformed, but I have
opinions about this effect. Also, I am curious to know, like,
before being asked to come up with a mutual love
or common love, did you have you discussed this or
did you just stumble upon it randomly?
Speaker 4 (11:28):
It is something we have discussed, yeah, quite a lot
in the past, and it's something that we have since
having learned about it. It's something that quite often in
life comes up, something will happen and you'll be like,
oh wow, that's a good example of the Dunning Kruger effects.
That's kind of partly why we wanted to share it,
because we're basically it's a psychological principle, it's a cognitive bias.
(11:49):
And I think it's quite fun to learn about different
cognitive biases because it tells us a lot about ourselves.
And if you know about them, you can start in
your own life perhaps try to try to find ways
of avoiding them and falling into they's chapter. It's just useful.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Absolutely to explain. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm pretending you'd be
an experian and I'm not, so I'm sort of an
example of it.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Tell us what it is, Okay.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
So the Dunning Kruger effects basically is the phenomenon where
if you know a lot about a subject, you are
likely therefore to know how little you know because that
subject is massive and vast, so actually that might make
you under confident when explaining it. However, if you know
(12:34):
nothing about a subject except for a few headlines of information,
you think that subject is very small, and therefore you
believe you know everything about it and are likely to
speak with a huge amount of confidence about something that
actually you don't know anything about it. And I think
it's quite a good tool for just like work and
knowing yourself better. And I think sometimes it's healthy and
(12:56):
good to have a bit of doubt and be like,
maybe I don't know anything about this. When you feel
really so and ensure about something, maybe that's a good
point to say, well, maybe that's because I don't have
a lot of nuanced information and actually I'm a bit
ignorant here. And then also I think it just explains
quite a lot of things in the world at the
moment where we all have access to all the information
(13:18):
but no time to read past the headline. So we
come up with opinions that are quite like, well it's this,
isn't it, But actually we don't know anything about it,
so we should all just shush and listen and read
and potentially in me and Hen coming on this show
to talk about the Dunning Kruger effect. That is a
good example of the Dunn Kruger effects, which which I
(13:39):
think is quite funny. That's funny.
Speaker 4 (13:41):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Absolutely, it's many layers wrapped within layers.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
Here.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
What you just described, Jonathan is so pertinent, because that
is exactly it. Everybody has a voice, everybody has a platform,
everybody can talk and be an expert on whatever subject
they choose without knowing anything about it. We've all fallen
prey to this at least I have, I mean.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Have you guys, yes, on an almost daily basis, I
mentioned absolutely for sure, you know, to use our work
as example, you know, we run a company called Mischief.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
There was definitely kind of stuff that I didn't know
that I thought I did because I didn't understand the
breadth of the kind of the field. And I don't
know in relation to that, I don't know, like it's
necessarily always a terrible thing. Sometimes not knowing about stuff
can mean that you run at things with a kind
of more enthusiasm and abandon whereas when you know more
about it, you know more of the pitfalls, you've got
more experience, You're therefore maybe more waary, you take less risks. Perhaps,
(14:35):
So I think there's something to be said in some contexts,
I suppose it sort of ignorance is bliss kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Yeah, you're sort of fearless perhaps when you're acting that way.
But the key difference here with the Dunning Kruger effect
is that the person doesn't say, oh, I'm aware that
I'm not totally an expert in this, but I'm going
to proceed as I am. But with the Dunning Kruger effect,
this person is not self aware enough to know exactly.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Oh, I actually have no Iaea, yeah, totally.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
It connects to the four stages of knowledge, right, John,
you probably know this better than me.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
I've not even got one stage of knowledge.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
Mates.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
So you have the unconscious you're unconsciously incompetent, so you're
incompetent and you don't even know you are. And then
you learn that you are in competence, you become consciously incompetent,
and then eventually you become consciously competent, and then eventually
you become unconsciously competent.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
You've got that.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Knowledge in the back. You don't have to think about it.
That's just part of you, Jonathan.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
You knew every single stage of knowledge intimately. And by
the way, I know I'm going to say this, so
I'll say it now. Doesn't everybody want to call it
the Diane Kruger effect. I'm not even that familiar with
her work, but she's an actress, right right, Yes, If
I call it the Diane Gruger effect, that's why perfect.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Are there any sort of touchstone examples, either from your
own life or that you've read about, that sort of
illustrate the principle I have one in my mind that
I want to ask you about. But before I get
to it, I wanted to just is there a particular
funny one like aha Dunning crews.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Well like the origin of the Dunning Kruger effect. One
reason why they came up with this theory is in
nineteen ninety five, two guys robbed a bank, a couple
of banks in Pittsburgh, and they ran into the bank
and they didn't do anything to disguise their face. They
didn't wear balaclavas, they didn't do anything to hide their identities,
(16:45):
even though there were cameras everywhere. And the reason is
because they covered their faces in lemon juice. And they
were arrested shortly after robbing the bank because obviously they
had on the footage of their faces. And as one
of them was put into the cop car late he remarked,
but I wore the juice. I wore the juice. And
(17:05):
the reason why he was so irritated to have been
caught is because what he believed is that because you
can make him visible ink out of lemon juice, he
thought the lomon juice would hide his face from the cameras.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Oh my, I've never heard of that in my life,
and it sounds like something out of a movie. It's fantastic.
I mean, this guy was so dumb? Am I wrong? Everybody? Nobody?
How else do I describe it?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
I think we all agree that's a dumb thing. That's
kind of the whole point of the story is It's incredible.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Right, It was a dumb thing to do that. You
couldn't even imagine the level and thinking. If this is
a man who thinks lemon juice will disguise his face,
how is he competent enough to like rob the bank
in the first place. I just don't understand that.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
I suppose that the chemistry of why let juice on
a paper disappears and when it comes back under lights
very basic grasp that concept. He understood quite a lot
of stuff, but obviously he had a lot of blind spots.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Can I just say, what we're all probably thinking of
is the bleach during COVID. I mean it's a similar
logic there. The lemon juice will disguise his face because
it works on paper, and bleach will destroy COVID because
it destroys germs on counter surfaces. So anyway, similar similar approach.
Am I getting too at the show. This is our
(18:34):
weekly politics, but anyway, it can be dangerous.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, I'm interested to hear Jonathan and Henry's take on
this because I don't know that it's exactly the same
as the Dunning Kruger effect, but I think that they
are related. And it's a personal pet peeve of mine,
and it is wine tasting. My view of wine tasting
is that there are some alias who can tell you
(19:01):
what year and what region what like. I believe that
there are people who've trained themselves to have that ability,
but I also believe that practically none of us fit
into that category, and that it's all in our imaginations.
Like our ability to discriminate between different levels of wine
is determined almost entirely by how much they cost. And
(19:23):
I think I'm backed up by this. They do like
wine taste tests and stuff like they give people cheap
wine and they prefer the cheap wine or whatever. The
craziest one is that most people, I think this is true,
if you blindfold them and you give them room temperature
white wine and room temperature red wine, they cannot tell
a difference. Wow, Yes, I I want to do this
(19:45):
at my next dinner party. Is like let's actually see
because based on what I'm aware of, like half the
people at the dinner party will fail. So to me,
that's a Dunning Kruger effect type of thing, because they
don't really know very much about wine, but they think
that they do, and they think that the two hundred
dollars bottle is so much better than the twenty dollars
bottle or whatever. Right, But it's also a societal phenomenon
(20:08):
because everybody wants to be good at wine. I don't obviously,
but just read it's fine, affordable, read the second cheapest one.
But Jonathan Henry, is that in the area of Dunning
Kruger or is that a different phenomenon altogether?
Speaker 4 (20:26):
I think that actually is. I think any overconfident amateur
I would say the wine tastere is for sure, unless
you are someone who spent years and years learning about it. Yeah,
for sure, that's the Dunning Kruger effect going on there. Actually,
there's a great quote is this David Dunning, who one
of the people who did the study. He says, not
knowing the scope of your own ignorance is part of
the human condition. The problem with it is we see
(20:49):
it in other people and we don't see it in ourselves.
The first rule of the Dunning Kruger Club is you
don't know you're a member of the Dunning Kruger Club.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
When did you first become aware, Jonathan and Henry of
this phenomenon. Did it happen within the development of Mischief
your theater company, or did you know about this independently
or did you like discover it together?
Speaker 4 (21:12):
I think I went to the Edinburgh Science Festival and
there was a talk I remember learning about it. Then John,
was there something else as well?
Speaker 3 (21:18):
I listened to an episode of This American Life that
was all about the Dunning Kruger effect. And then a
week later You've gone to see that lecture and I
was like, oh my gosh, I've literally just been reading
about that. And from there on a weird mutual interest
slash love started.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
And you know you had a topic for the podcast.
I want to know what the other Actually I do
know what the other candidates for what you loved was,
because I saw the list that you submitted.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
More regular stuff.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yes, I don't know what you and I it is interesting.
I don't even know what my husband and I would
come up with as like mutual Yes, we both love
our children.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
Beyond that, I'm like, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
It's hard when you're so close to a person.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Particularly outside of work, outside of like comedy. We were
just like the only things that unite him and myself
are a theory about cognitive bias and pizza.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Yeah, Ellie, the fact that you brought up your relationship
with your husband. Now, I'm thinking about the Dunning Kruger
effect through the prism of your relationship with someone else,
because you also go through those same four stages. Right.
It's like you, of course you don't know them, and
then you meet them and you're aware that you don't
(22:37):
know them, but then there's this sort of interim step
where you maybe think that you know them. Or my wife,
I'm just gonna slag on her a little bit, but
my wife, she'll meet someone like two times. Actually you
do this too, Ellie, absolutely convinced that you like have
pegged them.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Oh I have.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
It's like, oh, my intuition is this. I know exactly
what this person's gonna do. And my wife, sorry, Vanessa,
often wrong. Right, that's the Dunning of Kruger effect for people.
It's like the first impressions for people.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Often I have to interrupt you right away because I
couldn't disagree with you more. Here's my dunning Kruger or
lack thereof. I know that I'm not good at most things.
One thing I know I'm good at is assessing someone's
personality from the first minute I meet there. And give
me anyone and I'll tell you. I'll tell you if
(23:31):
they're rotten egg or not.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
I really want to know what was your first, very
blunt assessment of me then when you met me?
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Both keep negative people positive, A total keeper.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Jonathan's secret has been exposed. All of our listeners now
know the thing that he's.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
A pepera.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
That's wrong.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Wait, you must tell us what does peoper mean in
the UK?
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Is that what I think? Imagine? It would be like
a peeping tom? Yeah, like like somebody who.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
I was like, I'm telling you this guy's a peeper. No,
he's not a peoper. A keeper, a keeper, a gem.
Both of you and I'm right, you're keepers and you're
not peepers. But say what you I had your number
from day one, and I'm not going to go through
the long list of people who I know aren't keepers.
But the list is long, and I am really good
at identifying them, do you know, are you guys not?
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Well, wait, but if you're just saying I'm going to
like this person or I'm not, then I bet. Yeah,
your instincts are probably pretty good, but like if you
assume much more about them, I feel like those would
be less reliable. Like, oh, this person seems really smart,
it turns out they're an idiot.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Yet again, Diane Krueger. No, but that I think that
you're right, because I guess you can assess whether someone's
like a good egg or a bad egg. But nothing
is like more delightful than when I do peg someone
for being a snob and then it turns out they're
you know, shy or whatever. That is sort of a
(25:20):
great revelation. So I take everything I said right back again.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
There's a pretty cool book called Blink by Malcolm Gladwell
about the opposite of the dyang, the Dunning Kruger effect.
But like that's all about how very often your gut
instinct is something you should really trust. It's all very complex.
But because that's a throwing the mix as well, I
definitely can't talk about that book at length because I
read it about seven years ago. So that would be
Dunning Kuger effect if I just burst into all that
(25:44):
book's about.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
But the more that we discussed this, the more we
realize what we don't know, which is really the Dunning
Kruger effect.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Work a Socrates quote for you, if you're in the
market for one. I know that I'm intelligent because I
know that I know nothing.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
Oh thanks, he called it.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
He called that Tenny Kruger effect thousands of years ago.
Smart God, that.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Guy knew what he was talking about, Socrates.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Did you guys?
Speaker 1 (26:14):
We would love to play a game with you that
we play with all of our guests. It's called love
It or Loath It? And when we get back, we
will play that game. Okay, guys, we're back with Henry
(26:39):
Lewis Jonathan Sayer. We are going to play one of
our favorite games, one of our only games, in fact,
the only game we play, Love It or Loathe It?
Henry and Jonathan Scott and I are going to throw
some items your way, subjects, activities, games, and you tell
us whether you love that thing or you loathe that thing.
There is no room for nuance.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
It can be no in between.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Okay, all right, Love It or loath it escape rooms,
love it, knew.
Speaker 4 (27:07):
It, why very much enjoying it. Escape rooms, John will
have potentially a different opinion. I think they're I think
they are enormous fun and I've always kind of liked
puzzles and stuff and mysteries and its atmosphere and stuff
is fun and when you go to a good one,
it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
That's fantastic, Jonathan.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
In the world of not doing nuanced then I have
to say loads like I don't enjoy the kind of
the crazed effect it has on people. I prefer just
a nice chat rather than just being like, what is
the cold looking at the folks like, that's not my idea.
There's a red book and a yellow but maybe it's
some kind of code. It's just maybe.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Maybe Ellie, have you ever done an escape room once?
And did you love it or love it? I love it?
Speaker 1 (28:00):
No, it was too urgent, there were too many cooks.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
It was.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Yeah, I'm a loader.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Did you escape? Maybe maybe you would have enjoyed it more.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
We escaped, but.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Through no help from me. I mean I just sat.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
And it's not a very shameless individual, but I'm going
to be shameless for him, and just so that Henry
also has a company called Mystery Agency and they make
escape rooms in a box and they're super cool. You
should check them out. I love them, even though I
loath escape rooms.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah, escape room in a box. So I signed me up,
all right? Love it or loads it? Beans for breakfast?
Speaker 4 (28:42):
Load that? What kind of beans are we talking? Like?
Bait beans in like a full English breakfast would be
my experience of beans for breakfast, And it's a high
risk thing because it can, really the beans can infiltrate
all aspects of the It's okay a bit, but you
can't have beans on the plate because they're going to
(29:02):
get involved in all the bits of breakfast, and you
don't want them involved in all the bits. So I
would say probably not unless maybe the separate, but probably low.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
It's really yeah, I think we're thinking baked beans on
this one.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, Jonathan, do you have such an anti British take
on the breakfast beans as well?
Speaker 3 (29:18):
I love the baked bean, but I love the gobanzo bean.
And I have chickpeas every morning for breakfast almost no,
John I do. Every morning I have chickpeas and toast
because it's very good.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
It's so good for you pease and toast together.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
I like mash it all up in oil and I
put like celery in and it's kind of like a
vegan tuna kind of thing. And I find that delicious breakfast.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
That is a it's a very nourishing, healthy breakfast. John,
this is that's a great idea.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Why am I mad about it?
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Ellie was about to agree with the word delicious, stopped
yourself midword and correct it. Changed it to nourishing and healthy.
We can't agree. Then, it does sound nourishing and healthy.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Okay, love it or loathe it?
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Ted Lasso love it.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
It's hard to say because I haven't seen all of it.
It wasn't my favorite thing that I've never seen, but
I can see why people love it for sure.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
No, you're not allowed to be nuanced that you're not
allowed to show.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
I have to say that I load it. I'm just
not a huge sports fan, and obviously that's a big
part of it.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Henry, we have the same take. Ted, last Jonathan, you
like soccer.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
I love soccer. Your door the foot like I absolutely
I love football.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
It is like it is.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
I don't know why I said that was Weird's kind
of unfortunate that I said that, But no, I love football.
It's exceptionally important to me. I find that it nourishes
my soul in a way that the chickpea breakfast nourishes
my hearts and muscles. No, it's I just not adore football.
I adore sport. I've actually got a Dunning Kruger kind
(31:01):
of story about myself. So, my father and my grandfather
and indeed my great grandfather all played semi professional soccer.
And when I was young, I would go to watch
a team called Ashton United, who are in the seventh
division of football. And that team started to have some
(31:22):
financial difficulties a few years back and did a tweet
saying we need some help. Does anyone want to get involved?
And I got involved, and I had a very Dunning
Kruger thing of just being like, all the things that
I know about running a theater company will neatly transpose
into how you would run a soccer club. And I
became the owner and co chair of Ashton United football Club,
(31:43):
a position that I hold with my dad, and we've
run that football club for five years and the first
year I was just like, oh my god, I know nothing.
What am I doing, and it's been this really crazy
experience where I was at the start, I knew so
little about the main thing that it does such a
difference between him watching football and being like, oh, they
should have done this, and then actually doing it and
(32:04):
being like, oh my god, I don't know important say.
I'm not the coach, I'm the I'm the Hannah Wardingham
figure in ten rights. But that there is a fantastic
example of Dunn Kluge in myself, like just assumed because
I only knew the headlines of football that I had
strong opinions and it was dead simple. And it is
anything but it's super hard, super stressful, super nuanced, and
(32:24):
I'm a rollercoaster.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
John's written an excellent and very funny book about his
experiences called Nowhere to Run, and it is hilarious.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Jonathan, I cannot wait.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
I love this.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
I've get a great book recommendation escape Room in a Box.
This is the most fruitful lover love we've ever done.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Love it aloa that child actors what have you?
Speaker 4 (32:45):
Was one, Yeah, that's very true.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Well, John, well you got Oh god, I don't know love.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
I think this is very harsh to know the child
actors isn't it. And I love the movie The Kids
with Charlie Chaplin, one of my favorite ye and the
kid in that is obviously tremendously important. Do you know
who that kid went on to play in the movie
The Kid? He is the original Uncle Festa.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
No, I didn't know that, and I'm glad that he
had enjoyed success in the industry.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Henry.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
I love child actors, unfortunately, not because I hate children,
although obviously I do. But I don't know. I worry
that there's like, you know, like a sadness, particularly if
you have a big career when you're young. I don't know,
is it too much too soon? Do you end up
kind of jaded or not where you quite want to be?
Maybe later in life, I.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Don't know, stunted development?
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Right?
Speaker 4 (33:42):
Maybe? I'm sure there are many child actors who are
totally healthier, well adjusted, but I think I'm very well adjusted.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
For Breakfast, he's fine, Okay.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
He's doing fine. I completely agree with you, And it's
nobody's fall. Maybe it's the parents' fault. Jonathan. You are
the exception, and so is the kid in Charlie Chaplin's
The Kid, Because uh yeah, most of the time. It
feels like you should be at school, you should be
playing with your friends. But there are parts in shows
(34:15):
and movies and television that call for children. So I
don't know what the answer is except try to avoid
writing stories about children. Maybe I don't know what the
answer is. But I also love them.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
All, right, guys, well and love it or low? The
last one on a New York classic Sabarrows.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
I don't know what one is.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
I'm sorry, Oh my god, I love that. You don't
know at all. It's a pretty crummy piece.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
It's an awful pizza change right, Wow, Okay, I haven't.
Speaker 4 (34:51):
I've never been. I should. I'll have to go then
before I leave.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Definitely don't. It's s B A R R O. And
where do you find it? Sparrows at Penn Station, maybe
around Rockefeller Center.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Maybe there's probably one of the airports.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Yeah, you want to avoid it at all costs. And
I was interested to find out if it turned out
you loved it, which also would have been fine, because
if you like pizza, you probably know a thing or
two about it.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
What a fantastic kind of way to end, which kind
of full circle that the other subject we suggested to
talk about was New York pizza, and it has been
highlighted at the very end. The thing that we thought
we knew a lot about, we've immediately been confronted with
a complete lack of knowledge. We are now consciously and
competent when it comes to our knowledge of American pizza.
What a hilarious to end.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
That was our aim. We were slowly building towards it
over the course of the bad Gas and we stop
the landing. Joathan and Henry, thank you so much for
taking the time to be on our show. Is there
anything specific you would like to plug right now or promote.
Speaker 4 (35:55):
We're currently doing Mind Bangla, a night of Tragic Illusion.
We head off to the West End where we open up.
The apologis from the eleventh of March. There is that
if you want to come and see a mischief show
and also if you're ever in London, it's a great
year to go and see the Plane that Goes Wrong,
because it's a planet goes wrong. It's tenth Birthday in
the West End.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Happy birthday.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
I saw a play that Goes Wrong with my children
just a couple of months ago on the West Day.
Oh it's spectacular, so anyone visiting London should check it out.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
If you're in America and you want to see the
play That Goes Wrong, that's still running at New World
Stages as well, and that cast are remarkably good to do.
Check it out in New York as well.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
There is no shortage of laps around here.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
You guys.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
It was so much fun talking to you. We are
so grateful to you. You put out so much comedy
and light into the world. And I think we all
learned a little something today.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Which is it?
Speaker 1 (36:46):
We don't know as much as we all thought. Henry Jonathan,
thank you so much for being here. It's been a pleasure, pleasure, Thank.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
You so much. I had a blast.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Thanks for listening to Born to Love. We'll be back
next week with brand new things that we love.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
We want to hear from you. Leave us a review
in Apple Podcasts and tell us what you love. We
might even ask one of our guests in an upcoming
love it or Load It.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Born to Love is hosted and created by Elli Kemper
and Scott Ecker.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Our executive producer is Aaron Coffman. Our producers are Shina
Ozaki and Zoe Danklab.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Born to Love is part of Will Ferrell's Big Money
Players Network in collaboration with iHeart Podcasts. Special thanks to
Hans Sonny.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Rachel Kaplan and Adrianna Cassiano
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Michael Fails, Alex Korl, and Baheed Frazier
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