Episode 8 - feat. Kelsey Beachum

Hello! This week Jess Brohard and Psyche are joined by writer and narrative designer Kelsey Beachum. Kelsey discusses her process of crafting stories through the lens of her work on Outer Wilds and other awesome projects. Enjoy!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm welcome to Boss Level, a podcast for ree
feature conversations with guests who have leveled up bringing an
XP boot to the table. Today, we'll be talking to
Kelsey Beaching, a game writer a narrative designer best known
for her narrative work on award winning space adventure game
Outer wild as well as The Outer World's DLCs. But
before we get started, I'll take a moment to introduce

(00:21):
both of your hosts for today. I've always been a
party of two on each episode, and today that's myself,
Psyche and my lovely co host, Jeff bro Haard. Jess,
how are you doing today? I'm good. Thank you for
that intro that sounded so good and so professional, and
I'm excited for this episode because I feel like it's
it's been a while since I've been on the podcast,

(00:42):
Like scheduling and such as kept me away, and I
know the other three of you have been taking it.
But I know you're so excited about our guests today,
aren't you, Psyche? I really am. I not trying really
hard not to nerd it on the fact that I
really loved Outer Wilds and uh it was a game
that profoundly affected so I'm very excited to talk to
Kelsey today. Elsie, thank you so much for joining us.

(01:04):
Would you like to take a moment to introduce yourself,
tell us a little bit about you and what you do? Hello? Sure,
my gosh, I I'm flustered. Now you've got me flummixed.
All right, I warn you can't compliment me directly to
my face or I do like just melt into a
puddle of goof. So it's totally fine, wonderful. So, yeah,
Guigi is kind of like I'm here for it with

(01:27):
that lue Jee's mansion. I know that's not timely reference,
but god, I feel so Hi. Yes, I'm Kelsey Beacham.
I am a writer and narrative designer. Probably yeah, if
anyone knows me from anything, it'll be outer wild boy.
I don't even know. Sometimes I don't know how to
introduce myself, just because my career has been kind of odd.
But so talk about your favorite game instead? Then? What's

(01:48):
your favorite game? Tell us the personal stuff. What's your
favorite pasta? I don't know, Oh, my gosh, thing, Guenie.
I think because it really pleases me that it's flat,
it's really nice. I feel that Sorry, yeah, I just
I just want to go back to elden Ring because
we were kind of talking about that came up and

(02:09):
now I'm like, that's where my head is. Pre pre
podcast episodes starting, we were talking about elden Ring. We're like,
we gotta cut ourselves off the podcast. But now, okay,
we've talked about elden Ring. Where are you in elden Ring?
How is it going? Tell me all about it? No,
this is the crazy part. I think I'm the only
the only game dep in the world right now, not
thing e. I am watching it instead because, yeah, I'm

(02:32):
recovering from some repetitive motion injuries and it's been really
hard to jam on those boss fights where you're like, no,
must beat neck man. So I've been watching my partner
play it instead, and I've been I have kind of
a bingo card going of like monsters I assume will
come up h and it's all kind of like, you know,

(02:53):
undead woman without eyes or eyes covered. Um. Spirit Wolf
was kind of a gummy like ghost Wolf. I don't know,
but that's basically the free space. Um, you know, at
some point like t Kettle, I assume the other day
I watched him. I was watching my partner fights some
some guys that I mean, that's the Burger King mascot, right, Okay,

(03:17):
I've been calling them the Burger King because that's what
it is. I I don't know where their helmet came from,
but they definitely look like the Burger King mouth weird
And then that kind of is like a go to
for from software, right, like their games their characters are
kind of weird. Oh yeah, I love it. I'm here
for it. But also like, he killed so many Burger

(03:39):
Kings and I just in my my nerdy world building
law obsessed heart of hearts, I don't think that's a
viable theocracy. No, Like that's you gotta narrow that down, man.
My My occurrent thing is I'm trying to figure out
what the lore behind the Burger King mask is because

(04:02):
I've encointered a boss that has a face that looks
kind of like the Burger King helmet, and I'm like,
is it based on him or is that just a coincidence,
because there's got to be something going on there. I
have heard a lot of people geek out about the lore,
but I feel like it's one of those games where
it's like you don't have time for lower man get
attacked by a house, but I just want to know

(04:24):
the house motivations. Yeah, like why why is the why
is the house stack? I'm so here for it. Um
Cat Manning, who's also a narrative designer tremendous. She's recently
tweeted something about just kind of needing to know your
internal like consistencies when you're when you're doing world building,

(04:45):
and I'm so big on that and I'm such a
nerd about it, but there are there are a couple of,
boy I want to say, sticking points with this where
sometimes people think that means um, put all of the
war into the game, right, Holy sh it. No, Like
there's so much that gets left on the cutting room floor,
even in just like Outer Wilds, and like it kills

(05:09):
me a little bit, Like I want to talk about it.
I want to be like, oh my god, here's all
this stuff. But like at the same time, like that
would have been a terrible game. Yeah, But I'm such
a big advocate if you have to know this stuff internally,
you know, like across just even across disciplines like like
audio needs to know this stuff or or your design obviously,
Um and it's it's yeah, I'm just I'm a huge

(05:30):
nerd for that stuff. Man. Is there anything that you
were allowed to talk about that didn't make it into
the final cut of Outer Wilds that was like you
you spent a long time on and you really like
had this passion for and then you know, unfortunately couldn't
make it to the final game. So it's not cannon
because it's not really in the final game and we've
never published it, so this is this is not official.

(05:51):
But at one point we were talking about like bodies
and such, and like we don't have for the Nobi,
we don't have like graves or anything like that. We
have some kind of memorial stuff. And it's like, well, yeah,
that makes sense. If they're nomadic people. It is weird
that they would bury their dead because they're just leaving
them behind. In that sense, it just it it affects

(06:11):
the way that you think about death, I think, and
the way that you you treat um. I don't want
to say disposing of your dead, but like you handle
your dead. So it made the most sense to me
that they did some form of you know, space cremation um,
which of course means in our case I think it
does heavily imply that we're low key launching no my

(06:31):
bodies into the sun. Okay. I love that it's funny
because one of the things I will get into this
later because I have prepared notes and questions very selfishly
because I love the game undelighted. I really otherwise you'll
just hear me rambling for like the rest of my life.
I I what, I really appreciate it, and I, like

(06:52):
I said, I don't want to dig too deeply in
before we've got fully acquainted with you. But um, I
really like the fact that it was an almost very
bitter sweet game and that it dealt with heavy topics
but in a way that was very uh beautiful and
accessible and approachable, rather than it being like just really
heavy all the time. Becau, there's some games that I
feel can be quite miserable and the only way to

(07:14):
win is not to play, yeah exactly. And I think
it's like that where I've watched someone else stream it
and I've just known this game will break me as
a human being if I play it myself, you know
what I mean. Shadow of the Colossus every times over.
Oh yeah, I've never played it, but I've seen people
play it, and I keep being told I should play it,
but I don't know. I don't know market ticket. I

(07:36):
watched my brother play as A as a youth, and
like it's gorgeous, Like the boss metals are incredible. Climbing
around on these giant colosses are just oh my god.
But also you kind of know what's coming. Yeah, like,
well time to die, time to be incredibly sad. So yeah,
I don't go in for games that are like relentlessly

(07:57):
sad exactly. That's what I was thinking. Sometimes you need
a little bit of like an uplift, otherwise it's just
all the way down hill. It's definitely a skill to
be able to kind of blend at least a little
bit of humor and lightheartedness and whatnot into something that's
incredibly sad potentially, and especially just I guess the thing

(08:19):
that bugs me about a lot of games is that
we can see of a lot of societies, we being
the collective gamed you know, um, a lot of society
is where it's just sad all the time. And I'm like,
people are people regardless of where you go for their aliens.
But you know what I mean, Like you can't have
a society that doesn't have joy or play or like,
you know, positive moments. That's that's insane, and it doesn't

(08:41):
feel developed to me. It doesn't feel like a rich,
genuinely existing world. It's just kind of like, here's some
sad dudes in space space the title of my next work.
I want to bring it back to what JAS asked,
not the pasta questions, Um, what's your favorite game of

(09:02):
all time? If you had to pick one, how dare
you that's always one favorite? Can we ask her top five? Instead?
What's your top five favorite? J is so much nicer
than that's. That's a lot kinder, and it's still difficult.
It's like when people ask me my favorite book and
I'm like, um, gosh, okay, alright, alright, alright, alright. One

(09:29):
of them is definitely Animal Crossing. Um, and that's a
bit of an odd one for somebody that makes so
many like open world action games. But I think the
way you interact with characters had a big kind of that,
and also the idea, Um god, I'm going to date
myself here, but I can remember the original, the very
first Animal Crossing that came out in the US had

(09:50):
these advertisements for it. That was like something something the
game that's happening twenty four hours a day, whether you're
playing or not, and that actually had a big pat
on how I thought about game worlds. I'm like, oh, right,
because it's not just a thing. I mean, of course,
it's only a thing when I turned the game on,
But the idea that stuff is happening, that people are
interacting and doing their own things and living their own

(10:11):
lives outside of what I'm doing as the main character. Um,
I don't know. That feels really good to me. I
feel like that's a huge part of making a game
feel immersive. Um. Yeah, I'll give them that. Plus the
sense of humor, I think, um, it's kind of just
dry in a way where it's like they just drop
a joke and they're like, yeah, that's how I've I

(10:32):
think tended to write. Humor is very like, here's a joke,
but we're not going to like stop and jazz hands
about it, like it's not a joke. Pause for laughter.
It's like, maybe this is funny anyway, here's the plot.
So definitely that one. Definitely the Zelda franchise as a whole,
probably the one that has influenced me personally the most

(10:52):
is the wind Waker. Um, Breath of the Wild seems
like it would be the obvious one, but that came
out like long enough after we had really gotten into
the meat of development without our wilds and stuff that
it didn't it didn't impact that as much as you'd think,
as as much as The wind Waker did. Because my
brother really loved the whole um like somebody could talk

(11:13):
about like, oh, this is from you know, this far
off place and blah blah blah, and then you could
go there. So that was big to him. And also
again kind of for me, goes back to the world
feeling connected. Um, the fact that it's not just here's
our region and people in that, and then here is
another region and the people and that even just having
beatles show up at various points on the map like

(11:33):
that did make it feel a lot more like people
are moving around and doing things. Um. So those are
two very obvious easy ones for me, and then it
gets trickier. I love Hollow Night, I tell you what,
that one played that and it's a game I keep
being told I have to play. It's ay like Halloween,
and I like spooky things. And I feel like it

(11:55):
would pretty well, but I've just never played it. It
is gorgeous and stunning, and like the arts incredible, the
music is incredible. It's one of those things where I
guess all of the different disciplines kind of really used
together nicely in a way that often I find is
more prevalent in indie games because it's maybe just because

(12:16):
you know fewer people means it's easier to adhere to
one particular vision. But I don't know, it's really gorgeous. Um,
and it's difficult, and I loved I'm not so much
in the way of writing there, but you know, that's
just a fun one. Um. Oh my god. I'm trying
to like I'm thinking in my head of the games
that I go back to a lot, and then I'm like, okay,

(12:37):
but is that really a game that I qualify as
like one of my top whatevers? If we're not going
to call you out on it later and like you said,
that was your favorite game before, I will throw down
if I have to. I'm still a really big fan
of A Night in the Woods. Um is a good
one for me. And if you're into Halloween, that is

(12:57):
a great like that's exactly the vibe you're looking for, probably,
and then recently, like more recently anyway, um, like a
Short Hike. I really love indie games like and a
Short Hike for me captured a lot of that feeling
of like being a kid running around in the woods
collecting sticks and buttons and things. Um. I don't know
if those last three were necessarily like full on favorites,

(13:18):
but they're they're definitely up there. And I realized, like
my favorite kind of wobble back and forth, depending on
my place in life that I'm in, I find some
games appeal more or like resonate more with me than
they did before. So I get that, especially right now
with you know, the pandemic still being a whole thing.
I don't know if you were aware of that, that
that's still going on. But really sorry, I know it's

(13:40):
a terrible joke. I just I don't have any more left.
I'm so sad, and I really love people. Um, For
an introvert, I'm incredibly social, so like, that's been a
tough one. So I've been playing a ton of like
co op games, and I've been playing Kiwi. Oh it's
so cute. Good, Oh, my god, it's so good. Have

(14:00):
you not seen it? Have you play as either one
or two? You're you can play with a friend two
Kiwi's the Birds not yeah, I feel like cute playing
his Little Fruit. I don't know, Yeah, well it could
be cute. So it's a super cute game where you
play is these two Kii's and you have to like

(14:21):
you work in a male office and you have to
send letters and sure adorable. That sounds really QUI that's
so charming, it really is. Oh my god, So I
love that. And then I I'm thinking about open world
games that I really love, and boy, I don't know
whether to put some Nautica on that list or not,

(14:41):
because I've had a lot of fun playing sub Nautica,
but like, oh my god, I knew going in I
have a fear of deep water. But those types of
you know what I mean, like where there's like, yeah, crafting,
I've been playing The Forest, which is kind of like
a co op open world or some crafting involved, Like
the crafting is really Minecraft has been kind of a

(15:04):
soothing game for me as well. And I know that's
not really not like the most timely on games at
the moment, just sitting there and being like, all right,
I'm going to construct these things and just anything that's
like open world construction based and allows at least the
telling of your own story, if not has an actual
story for you to discover. That's That's what I've been
really big on that lately. Yeah, I get that. I'm

(15:25):
curious about how being a you know, narrative designer has
changed the way you personally consume games, because like, are
you constantly looking for you know, inspiration and thinking, you know,
kind of what can I take away from this game
and using my work or is it a much more
passive experience than that. That is a really good question.

(15:48):
I haven't considered it really um because growing up, my
brother is very much his name is Alex. Alex is
very much the type of person that's like he just
kind of broke down games already in his head to
is like, oh, this design element is good in this
design element, but I don't like this part of it,
and even games we love. We were able to have
that conversation with each other and kind of it kind
of eventually got to a point of like how we

(16:11):
might change things because we made games together growing up, Um,
in different ways whether that was like as little kids,
like with Lego or like and we had like a
Lego controller and stuff and you had to say like
jump to jump that kind of thing, all the way
up to like you know, paper prototypes of stuff. So
that was kind of just a language we had in common.
And so I was looking at games a lot going like, oh,

(16:33):
you know, like I don't really like how they did
this with you know, the story, or this with like
this the way this character talks. And then Alex would
be like, okay, well tell me about that, and I'd
be like, oh, I think of it. Maybe if they
were going to improve it, they could do X, Y Z.
And it was just a very organic so I kind
of learned. At the same time I was, you know,
studying fiction or whatnot in general, because I was an

(16:56):
English major by that point, I was also able to
break down, you know, same deal with like movies. They
were having us breakdown movies, they were having us breakdown
um novels. I studied comic books for a semester or
to It's part of my senior thesis. That was a
blast um. So games were just kind of another form
any form of media where you're telling a story is
something you should be able to kind of talk about,

(17:17):
I think critically in that way if you're somebody that
cares about story, um, which is to say, to actually
answer your question, Uh, sometimes I do. When I'm playing games,
I'm like, okay, like this is a fun element. How
would I make this better? Or like and and and
that's I'm cautious with that because sometimes it's like you

(17:37):
did not have you know, the the work power. I'm
trying to find find a word that's for manpower that's
not manpower, um, you know what I mean, Like the
resources on the time and the money and potentially to
to make it that the thing. Like I don't think
there's a narrative designer in the world out there or
game writer who has ever looked at a game and gone, yeah,

(18:00):
that's exactly what I wanted to do with it, and
I wouldn't do anything more Like it's always we're always
limited by you know, resources and everything like that logistics.
But I do like to challenge myself to look at
things and be like, Okay, I didn't enjoy how this
information was delivered, or I didn't have fun with this
character experience, what would I personally do to make that fun,

(18:20):
because that's that's kind of it is. You're always looking
at your end goal of is the player experience positive
and enjoyable. So that makes sense. I can see that
Tom did not read is just I look at it
and I'm like, yeah, maybe I could change that, but
it's not the most I'm not playing a game to
be like, no, to critique the story, right, that's fair. Well,

(18:41):
And it sounds like you have like just a wide
variety of genres of games, and it sounds like you
just play an awful lot of games, which I think,
like Stephen King is, I think it's Stephen King is
famously quoted as saying you can't be a good writer
without like you have to read a lot and if
you want to be a good writer, And I'm sure, like,
do you feel it's the same way with the work
you do, Like you just have to consume a lot

(19:02):
of games, I think so to be honest at least
to get your starts. But like, like you have to
read a lot too. If you're not reading novels, you're
not going to get a good sense of So I
think that's still that's still fair. Mr King. Also, yeah,
I don't know, if I don't have a good sensitive
I play more games than average or not. But um,

(19:22):
I definitely think the more games that you play, you
have to both play video games. This is what I
tell people when they're like, how would I go about becoming,
you know, a game writer slash narrative designer. It's like,
m go play games and we'll get how they're doing
story and think about that critically, and then go make
some games of your own, even if it's just small stuff.
So yeah, I think I think it's pretty critical you

(19:43):
have to play games. And you're definitely right that I
play a lot of genres. I don't know if I
needed to do I need to do that. But at
the same time, like you get ideas from weird places,
so yeah, I get that. I'm going to ask a
very selfish question. I'm once again going to draw a
blackdog or aisles um, because you're talking about narrative design
and how you have to play a lot of games

(20:04):
to kind of get a feel for like how to
tell a story and how to tell a story through
the medium of games. Um Otter Wild is told narratively
in a really unique way, and for anyone who's listening
who doesn't know how old is told. I'm not going
to tell you because it would spoil the game. And
I am a firm believer that you should play that
game without even watching the trailer, without reading anything about it.

(20:24):
You should go in and play it. And if you
like space, you'll love it. But it's it's got a
really unique way of telling a story because the player
has to piece together parts from different angles depending on
what they're doing at the time, and then put the
story together. What kind of challenge does did you face
while trying to construct that story and trying to tell
that story? Oh man, that was I'll tell you about

(20:47):
how we made it. Um so it it And I
think this is fairly common knowledge, so forgive me for
bringing it up. But Alex is absolutely Originally that started
as his senior thesis project for his master's and so
he knew kind of the basic beats of the story,
like the big big stuff. We kind of knew what
the ending would have to be roughly. Um, we knew

(21:10):
where like the players started. We knew kind of where
the nom i started, which is this different alien species
you're playing as a hearty and um, we knew what
those big beats were and we kind of just then
talked and we're like, all right, how do we get
from this point to this? You know, point A to B.
That's it's subdividing a lot of those, but it's also
you're treating each one. If you're thinking of it like

(21:31):
a constellation, for example, each little star, each little instance
of the player stopping and reading some text or having
a particular experience that has to be self contained. UM.
I did some I did a g DC talk in
twenty Boy twenty one, so it was digital. I was

(21:52):
supposed to do it in and then obviously we did
not do that in person. But it was fun to
talk about because I got to break this down. Each
little instance of story has to be its own self
contained thing. It has to teach you something new, It
has to be fun or enjoyable in some capacity to read. Um,

(22:13):
it has to have a takeaway, so you have to
kind of know where to go next to learn more
about that particular story. Threat but it also has to
kind of tell you where it came from, because that
could be the first piece of story you're encountering, and
if you want to trace it back to its origin.
I'm gesturing wildly here on camera, like, that's right, it

(22:34):
doesn't help very much. It has to basically work both ways.
It's it's got to be bidirectional. And at one point
we sat down with this massive Excel spreadsheet were just
listed everything out, all of the stories, all of the
key points, all the takeaways, um, and tried to just
kind of get our heads around all, right, here are
the main strings, and here's where they need to intersect.

(22:54):
But yeah, there was a lot of also, like at
the surface level, literally the surface, on the surface of planets.
That's where you're going to find kind of the easy
bits that are not necessarily the start of a story,
but it will be easy for you to pick that
up and go, Okay, I see, I'm you know, they're
they're looking for something. You know, on the moon you

(23:15):
learn that they're they're trying to find this particular thing,
and okay, they couldn't detect it, so they need to
build a more sensitive version of this instrument at this
other location. I kind of ramble with this. I'm so sorry,
it's just it's so it's so specific and weird and
hard to explain. The challenges being we had to make
sure the players could piece the story together overall. At also,

(23:38):
we couldn't play test that until all the story wasn't place,
So we were really asking people to take a big
chance on this game. And even like our publisher, we
were asking like, hey, I know this is not, you know,
necessarily the most easy to understand thing right now, but
I swear we will calibrate it to the right. And

(23:59):
we kept we kept thinking, oh, this will be too
easy for people to to understand, and like consistently we
were always making clues harder or no, sorry, not harder,
easier because that's a tricky one. Um. But yeah, it
was just largely trusting the player to want to figure
that out, so I had to make them real freaking interesting.
It's really interesting because I've never really thought about the challenges.

(24:20):
So I come from a not game dev, but I
worked in the games industry, um and I actually one
of the first things that I ended up working on
was localization. We were localizing from a really really super
roughly translated game text in an Excel spreadsheet that have
been roughly translated into English and then trying to piece
that together into something that made proper sense and rewording
stuff because it was it was coming from like I

(24:41):
think it was coming from Chinese into English, and then
realizing that some of the like names they picked for
characters didn't really work, so having to rework those and stuff.
I never really thought about the challenges of taking a
game that is very frankly one of the most non
linear games I've ever played, um, and then having to
play test it and not being able to do that
until you're done. I must be sweaty palms for a

(25:04):
while there. Um. So we are going to take a
superstore a break. Thank you so much. We'll see you
back here in a few moments, all right, and we're back.
Welcome back to a boss level from that little break.
And Kelsey, something I'm actually really curious about. You mentioned,

(25:25):
like something about inspiration can come from, you know, where
you're not expecting it, and games that are not necessarily
expecting to draw inspiration from. Do you have any examples
of times that's happened to you when it's been like
kind of an offbeat game or something you weren't expecting
to draw inspiration from. Oh man, that's really fun. I'm
trying to think of, like what the weird the single
weirdest one I love weird ones. I want to say,

(25:47):
Terry Pratchett in a in a big way, and I
adore the Discworld novels. But there was something he had
written where he'd done like a footnote about someone who
had discovered a particular thing, and that factored back into
some flavor text I was writing about like a plant
and that like, oh my god, like people's real lives. Um.

(26:12):
I I know people who have worked for you know,
as government agents in particular. You know, I don't want
to get too specifically talk to them about their experiences,
like my neighbors. Sometimes they're kind of personalities will make
it in a bit um, you know. I'm really careful
not to like ever pull two directly from that, but

(26:34):
just it's it's it's anything like that. It's you know, um,
looking at rocks. It's going to like I learned how
to fight with a bow staff a while back and
like that. Yeah, oh my god, it's the most fun.
Oh my god. There's there's no better exercise than sparring.
I swear, because like I just several hours go by
and I'm like, what focus done. Yeah, that's the best

(26:58):
kind of exercise. As you look up, you're like, oh,
I've done so much of it. Yeah, that totally also
reminds me speaking of exercise, and said, you used to
do roller derby. I did curious about that. I roller escape,
but I don't have any aspirations of doing roller derb
because I think I'm a little too like I'm too
much of a weenie, you know, for like I'm too
like excuse me, you know, I'm not gonna I can't

(27:19):
get out there, and man, you would think I'm kind
of like that to normal life. But like, uh, I
mostly I was a jammer, which is the fast one
that goes around and tries to score points. They've since
changed the rules of it um in a way that
I'm not sure I would be as good at roller
derby anymore. But yeah, I actually I went in. Uh.
I was in Ireland for a bit in college doing

(27:41):
a workplacement abroad, and I actually got to skate there.
So we're taking from Ireland. So that's why I real
that we're doing the thing where we make congestions and
facial expressions on video and I'm like, can you hear this?
These bigger guns are just for you. It was actually
a fun fact part of Ireland's first first rollerney. Really

(28:01):
that's it was. It was like Dublin versus itself, like
on the team and they were just, oh my god,
they were just the sweetest women, Oh my god, and
their coach. It was a really cool way to get
to experience. Yeah, that is so but that kind of
I mean, like that's a great like I've had to
write about, you know, made up sports or I've made
up sports myself, and like if I want them to

(28:22):
be properly absurd, that's a great one to pull from.
So I had some Irish coworkers who were just like
I would explain all of ruler do was like all right,
and then like this is how you score points? Is
it's me and I'm passing people on the other team.
They're like right, right, but where's the ball? Though? I
love that. I actually only learned about roller derby was
like a few years ago and I don't even remember how.

(28:42):
I think it was in like a movie or TV
or something, and I was like, oh, I would have
loved that because like I used to roller skate roller
blade sometimes. How would have been so much fun. I'm
also really rough and tumbly and like I would love
to shoulder barge some people on roller skates. That'd be fun.
That's so funny. Is it like a very American thing?
I think it started that way. I hope, I hope
I'm not saying this and I'm just like being outrageous.

(29:04):
But back in the day it kind of used to
be like a like a performative thing, like it was
very like, oh, ladies playing sports and it's roller derby.
But then it actually became like, no, like a physical
you know, aggressive like I say, you mean my parents
were always like, oh, you're gonna break your hands. I'm like,
I'm not going to break my hands. If anything, I

(29:25):
need my hands. No, it looks like a lot of fun.
I think I would say it started out definitely that
sort of side of the world. Um, but from what
I understand, it's not maybe not global global, but like
a lot there's a lot of people doing it in
different countries. Now a lot of countries have picked it
up and then there's like a like a world kind
of tournament going on. I love I've loved seeing it

(29:48):
kind of just get brought up of another Like I mean,
it wasn't huge in Ireland when I was over there,
and now like they're doing so much more with it,
and like, I don't know, I was really privilegedic to
see that. I think. Um. Also just it was a
really cool because then people would always be like, all right, well,
like let's let's, you know, go to the pub after practice,
like come with us, it'll be fun, and like yes, please,

(30:10):
I would love this. So it got to meet a
lot of really cool people that way. That's awesome. You
said you've had a very varied history, I suppose with
the Ruler Derby. But also you started out working in
editorial work, right, rather than narrative design. How did you
draw your experience from that towards what you're doing? Not

(30:30):
because it's it's I know it's quite similar in some ways,
but it's very different in others. I would say it's. Yeah.
So I studied publishing in college. I did a double
major because I wanted to study English, but I was
also like, boy, I sure would like a job when
I graduate. No offense English majors. I love all of
you got speed. Um, So I I was a proof

(30:52):
reader for a while. I waitress a bit because I
graduated during your session, uh, and then I was able
to get a full time job working in, of all places,
the Cryogenic Society, which is where I learned that cryogenics
is not the same as cryonics because cryonics is body
freezings like science. Yeah, in Ireland, I was I was

(31:15):
working for a publishing company that handled some magazines like Golf,
Golf Digest Ireland. I had I had never so I
just kind of used to writing about subjects that I
have no like personal expertise in because I talked to
a lot of like scientists. I talked to a lot
of you know, I did a lot of reading on
golf because at the time I've never played it. That's

(31:38):
so interesting because that must come in like such handy
when you're if you're creating a video game world, Like okay,
so if you're writing for like golf magazine or whatever,
and you're like, I don't play golf, but I learned
how to write about golf really well. It's like you
can just take that skill and you can put it
into this video game world where everything's made up. Nobody
knows how to write about this video game world because
it doesn't exist yet you are creating it. Like that's

(31:59):
so fascinating that and if you're writing, thank you I
I didn't think of it as particularly interesting until this moment,
so now I'm now on blushing. I Uh, it's really
useful for if you're doing things like with you know,
out of wild sp example, my brother is brilliant, UM,
and I'm doing my best, so so he's uh, we

(32:23):
both pale in comparison to our little sister. Actually, my
little sister, Aaron is just crazy smart. I think she's
like what second or third in her law school right now.
She was just casually like I'm going to do law now,
and we're like okay, and then she just crushed it.
But I like to make fun of her by being like, oh,
but you're kind of the black sheep of the family
because you haven't won any bath does have you better

(32:45):
get going on that. I don't love that she can
punch way harder than I can, so I don't know
why I do this to her any who. Alex's um.
He has always been super interested in like space and
popular mechanics and like all kinds of know I mean,
I have a huge interest in science fiction, but he's
much more the real world science side of it. UM.

(33:05):
He actually was studying engineering for a while UM before
he ended up going the game's path um. I also
think he's the reason I don't freak because some people
are like space, oh my god when they go to
play the game, and I'm like, no, I feel you.
But also, as a child, like a young kid, you know,
nine or whatever, Alex is like telling me, you know,

(33:25):
black holes are interesting, here's what happens, Here's what spaghettification is.
And I was like, I'm too young for an existential crisis.
So I got used to it. But he obviously one
of the big mechanics in the game. Um is based
very leastly off of kind of a fun idea of
what would quantum mechanics look like on a macroscopic level,

(33:48):
and it's my job as a game writer to explain
that to people, to you know, all of us lay
people out here who are like what. I'm like, I'm
reading the wikipede, you a page on quantum mechanics, and
I'm like, I have to go right down. So I
was going to ask actually, because I so. One of
the things I really liked was I had Weirdly, I

(34:09):
don't know why this happened. Maybe it's some kind of
weird quantum shenanigans. But I had just been reading about
quantum mechanics, not in any like particularly deep way because
my brain cannot handle it, but I had just been
reading about it. And then I started playing Outer Wilds
and a bit in the like kind of tutorial area
where there's the rock and then it disappears and then
it reappears somewhere else. I was like, oh my god,

(34:30):
Oh my god, it's like quantum mechanics. And I was
so excited. And then I like, so cool. Did you
did you have to essentially research all that as like
a team or did you have somebody that you could
draw that kind of knowledge from or did you have
to research that yourself? So that's my that's my brother.
That's my brother being like, wouldn't it be cool if
like when you turned around? It actually started off as

(34:51):
like as a kind of horror thing that he prototyped earlier.
It's like, what if you turned around as skeleton was
right there? What if that Alex? But like he was like,
oh yeah, because like when you turn around, the trees
or have I have moved slightly, so like you don't
necessarily know right away what's off, but you know something's off.
And I'm like I'm so relieved you didn't make a

(35:12):
horror game. UM. So he had that going on, and
then the no might talk about it because they are
encountering in a lot of ways, the player's journey is
kind of mirroring the no mice, where you're discovering all
of these things as you go that they have discovered previously, UM,
which I knew was going to have to be a thing,
so that towards the end you can kind of pick
up where they left off, so to speak. UM. Trying

(35:33):
not to do any major spoilers here, but but yeah,
having them discuss what's happening in a way that feels
both scientific and approachable. That was that was a lot
of what I was doing there, And so it's a
lot of you know, I want to understand exactly what's
going on so that I'm able to talk about it

(35:53):
in a way that's not you know, you don't want
to say too much and then be like, oh, I've
kind of just beef to this, even even though you
know again and like this is a fictionalized version of
quantum mechanics, but Alex, it was really important to him
UM and also to uh to low In Um, who
is our our the lead designer on the project um
they really wanted that, you know, to preserve that science

(36:15):
and that's I think a very fun thing about speculative
like science fiction is just you can take a thing
and go like, all right, what if this thing that
we know roughly how it works works also like this
this kind of sideways you know. So I'm not you know,
most of my game writing does not have to be
that level of like scientifically accurate, but it is a
useful skill to be able to have researching about golf

(36:38):
and writing about golf. Would you writing about quantum mechanic?
That's one heck of a leap it is. I didn't
have to write too much about anything like like when
I was doing what do you call it? Um Great Genics,
I'm so sorry. That was a lot of me working
with like content management. So it was a lot of
you know, it was a lot of editing, It was
a lot of like proof reading. It was we had
both like an online publication a cup and then also

(37:01):
like one that's kind of the members only thing, and
then we had a physical print magazine that I was
like laying articles out and kind of designing within the
you know, existing design standards for the publishing company. That
was a lot of fun. Um, but I wasn't doing
as much writing then. Uh. What happened basically was just
I Um. While I was working there, I was also

(37:23):
moonlighting working on Outer Wilds because Outer wild started as
my brother's thesis project. And then in we went some
awards at I GF and we were not expecting that.
So I actually flew out too. I took I used
my like my five vacation days at the time to
take that week off and go out there, and like
it was really cool, and I got brought on. They

(37:46):
brought so um Mobius Digital is the company my brother
works for it now um he joined them, and they
agreed to bring on Outer Wilds and and continue with
it until publication, and they brought me on part time
as a contractor to continue to do the writing. And
then eventually, um, I round, I think uh, I went

(38:07):
and made the switch to working on that full time
for a while, and then I went on to work
on contract full time for like Insomniac, and then I
started freelancing after that once that was up, because I
was like, well, because I did ten months on site
there and then I was like, I can't go back.
It's it's so addicting to do a creative thing like that.
So cool. What did you aspire to you before? Because,

(38:29):
like I said, you worked for The Onion at one
point as well, which is very very different. So what
did the beginning and then how did you find your
way this kind of direction? What what brought you on
this journey? So sorry? I switched over yeah to working
as UM. I went from being an editor to being

(38:51):
an editorial assistant, working in editorial operations. So it was
supporting the writers. And that was specifically because I wanted
to work in kind of an entertainment sector. UM. When
I had started out in college, I thought books, but
it turned out books wasn't quite what I expected. UM,
and I liked the faster pace of like online publishing

(39:12):
and um, like magazine publishing, that sort of thing. So
then I was working at the Onion UM. But it
was it was it was a fun job obviously, like
don't get me wrong, UM kind of corporate surprisingly my experience,
I know, right, UM, the writers were a blast, but unfortunately,

(39:33):
like I couldn't really do too much in the way
of creative stuff there because the divide between like the
writers and then like editorial operations support stuff was fairly
firm um, because you know, and that makes sense to me,
because you don't want as a writer, you don't want
a bunch of people coming and being I have an
idea and you're like, please, this is my job. Professionally,
I do this. I did get to lead the Instagram team,

(39:56):
which was very fun, um, but it kind of was like, yeah,
I I really enjoy doing this more creative work with games, um,
and yeah, by the time hit it was just we
were my partner and I were in a position where
I was like, all right, I'm gonna do it. Let's
make that jump um. And that's kind of how it

(40:17):
ended up working out, because just the more I worked
on Outer Wild's the more and in comparison especially to
the Onion, where I'm like, this is probably one of
the more creative office is I'm going to work it
in publishing and I'm still not. You know, it turns
out I really like writing, like way more than I
liked being an editor. So it was a good switch.

(40:39):
It just was also terrifying because you know, yeah, boy,
it was already hard enough to find jobs there for
a while I suppose the pandemic didn't really help as well,
because things are kind of like, I don't even know,
there's not even words for it anymorey pandemic. That's when
I went from I was living in North Carolina because
I was on site there with UM. That was where

(41:00):
I was on site with UM UM Insomniac because we've
moved from Chicago to there, and then I did for
I think a year there or so. UM. I did
just freelancing, so I was working. I worked a bit
with like Techland, who just put out Dying Light to UM.
So theoretically some of my work is in that I
haven't I haven't played it. I'm actually uh, I have
no idea how much of it actually made it in

(41:21):
because it was more like design, like mission design stuff
than it was actual like screenplay. But I did some
stuff like that, and then I boy, that was I
was right at the start of the pandemic. When I
flew out, I got an interview with the Cidian to
be a narrative designer there, and then I worked there
for two years. And right now I am kind of

(41:42):
wrapping up taking a little bit of a break for
some health reasons, UM including those repetitive motion injuries. Don't
recommend getting those. No, I can imagine for writing, especially
that's not had to stop writing by hand. I love
writing by hand. Just as like this is a lot
of people will be like, if you do what you

(42:03):
love is your job, you'll start not doing it as
your hobby because you'll hate it. No, I do so many.
I like make games for fun on the side, you know,
like we did. Oh my god, it's so stupid. I'm
so sorry. I'm gonna crack myself up. While I was
out of city and I did with my I met

(42:25):
my my friends Dan there, and Dan and I made
a game at a game gym called um. We had
just we were refreshing a prompt generator until we hit
yelling at islands because they looked at you funny. I
love it. So we we made like a little game
where it's like you're you're a little dude on a
cruise ship shouting at islands as they come by. And
like I did the art for the faces, um that

(42:48):
was a hand quote there for art. But actually now
that I say that, Dan's Dan's gonna yell at me
if he hears this. Sorry, Dan, because I'm not supposed to.
I'm not supposed to put art in hand quotes any
are my friends? Kind Um that's fair though. I think
that's something we can all stand to, not put air
quotes around things that are like that's really I'm gonna

(43:12):
stop doing that because it's really hard though, especially because
like the muffle memory of always being self deprecating and whatever,
like it just it happens, right, So it's so hard
to not be like, yes, um, you you mentioned um,
like the whole if you love your job, you're like,

(43:32):
you know, either you'll never work a day in your
life or you'll hate it, right. I think like Jess
and I can also kind of relate to that because
with like content creation and stuff obviously because like I'm
a full time streamer um jazz streams and hosts and
about a million other things that she does as well.
Do you have the same kind of experience where like
you feel like you you love what you do and

(43:53):
that makes you want to do it more, but then
it's really hard to balance the time. Well, that's a
really interesting I'm glad you it's fun deep brought up, like, yeah,
I feel like there are kind of two ways it
can go and like, Kelsey, I'm so glad that for
you that it's like truly your passion and you love
doing it. And it's funny because, like I recently kind
of experienced this like huge burnout in terms of like
content creation and like hosting and stuff like that. Like

(44:15):
I haven't even done much of that really at all
this year, and it's been like one of the most
mentally peaceful years of my life, like in part because
I am just kind of focused on like doing other things,
you know, and like, you know, I feel like I
did all that kind of stuff for about ten years,
and during those ten years, I truly did have that
that that passion that fueled me of like, oh, it's
not just for money, it's like what I want to do,

(44:36):
you know. It was my job, and I was so
grateful that it was my job. But then towards the
end of last year, I just like had this like
major major burnout in a way that I had never
experienced before. And so like I just kind of changed
years and I'm like, oh, maybe it's something I'll return
to in the future, you know, maybe it's not. But
uh so that's really interesting that you did kind of
bring up like the two ways it can go, because
uh yeah, I mean it can be. I think I

(44:59):
might even be. So we're in the middle of myself.
I'm honestly, I'm really glad to hear that you were
able to find kind of a gear that worked for
you there, because like, it's it's um, I mean, it's
still it's still a job. It's none of this, but
you'll never did work a day in your life. Like
Sundays you go in and they're like, hey, so we
changed this, and that means you're going to have to
rewrite all this stuff over here and in this way

(45:21):
that you hate. Okay, and my brain the easy way
to do this would be like, okay, I'll just write
what you're telling me here, checkmark done. But the way
my brain works is very like I can find an
angle where everyone's gonna like this a little more than
it currently, and I usually can. And I'm also you know, like,
I'm making more work for myself basically, and sometimes that

(45:43):
is not the right call. And sometimes you know, I
need somebody on my team to be like, hey, don't um.
That helps a lot. But as much as I love
doing this, the thing that saves it for me is Um,
I have a lot of writing and design and just
can creation. I make a lot of stuff. Um that
is a tiny Lama tiki bar behind me for my

(46:05):
little little stuffed Lama beans. It's just I think it's
really important, especially for for game debts, to have an
outlet that is creative and it is also kind of
just for for them because it's so hard to It's
kind of like my identity for a long time was

(46:26):
kind of caught up in writer. I'm a writer, That's
what I do. And the second I started having health problems,
I'm like, oh my god, what am I if I'm
not doing this all the time. I love doing this,
I'm passionate about this. I don't want to have to
take a break. Oh my god, what if I fall behind?
If for for taking a break, and like, boy, that's
a great way to hurt yourself. It turns out, oh yeah, absolutely,

(46:47):
that's definitely a problem. I think that we as a
society don't really talk about enough as well. It's like, um,
having burney as always obviously a risk, but not taking
any time for yourself and to do a thing that
is just for you. And like, as a person, I
went from full time games industry to um SO as
a project manager, and then into um content creation, which

(47:10):
obviously is quite different. I got into this really horrible
habit of being like, Oh, this game is great, it
would make really great content for my stream. This game
is great. I'm not going to play it for fun.
I'm going to stream it. And that's terrible because there
are not like a stack of games that I have
never played because there's not enough time in the day.
I need things for me. Yeah. Well, speaking of breaks, though,

(47:33):
I believe it is going to be a good time
to take another little ad break. Don't go anywhere. We
will be right back with more Boss Level. Welcome back
to Boss Level, everybody. We're here with Kelsey Beacham, and
let's continue talking and digging deep into your career and
your journey through game narrative design. So I have a

(47:56):
question for you, um have you had any big failures
in your time that you feel you have learned from
on your journey. No, I'm a writing genius and I've
never done anything wrong in my life, so I just
wanted to try it. But yes, so many. Um. Actually,
I will also say not to just immediately spin this

(48:17):
um so. Well, we'll talk about an actual failure, I promise,
But also I think a lot of gamed have in
a way is kind of failing and failing quickly and
failing efficiently and being like, Okay, this did not work
for the player. How do I change that? Why didn't
it work? How do I not fail this next time?
Or if you need to fail this next time? I
mean sometimes I will put something in brackets and just
be like, here is the bad ship version of this,

(48:39):
and then I write that and like, weirdly that gives
me I don't know, sometimes just giving myself permission to
be like right, literally just the barre gooes things thing
that works, even though you're like using phrases like oh
my God and you know you can't use God in
this universe or whatever. Um. Because I used to be
very like I don't want people to read this until

(49:01):
it's actually good, and that's like the worst possible thing
you can do in development. So now I feel very
like enthusiastically where it's a bit more like, hey, I
know the writing is ship, tell me what you think
about the concept, and it's very interesting. I feel like
years ago I heard someone like give writing advice that
was like you just get it out, you know, even
like if you have an idea, you don't worry about

(49:22):
whether it's perfect. You don't want because you can always
go back and edit it. You just got to get
it out like that? Does that resonate with you? And
one of the frustrating things with game dub is in
a writing just a purely writing setup, like I don't
know if you were taking a class or something. Maybe
I've taken like a literally one writing class, so I
don't know how true this is, but um okay, Like

(49:43):
if you're if you're sending something ship like to other writers,
even just in your game, where you're like, yeah, okay,
I've gotten this dialogue down, tell me what you have
to think about this. They kind of know. They've got
a good sense of like where you guys are at
on the project and like, oh okay, like I'm sure
x y Z is gonna get development and blah blah blah,
so I should focus on you kind of know what

(50:03):
to give feedback on, especially once you know your coworkers
reasonably well, because you're gonna know your writing team right.
All their game devs do not know this, so sometimes
they're like, you used, oh my god here. We don't
have gods in our universe, and I think that you
should probably change that. And I'm like, yeah, man, I know.

(50:23):
And you don't want to be like I know that
already because then that like terrified people and they don't
want to give you feedback anymore. And you do want
to get feedback from your non writing game debths, obviously,
because that's really important. But at the same time, sometimes
you're just like, please just focus on the the idea
that is here and not maybe the specific words um,
but yeah, it's it's definitely get it out there and

(50:46):
get it out there fast. Just mhm. You gotta let
go of it. Man. Have you ever taken part in
not a Ramo National Novel writing money, Because that is
definitely a concept that I've had to accept, is that
you just have to write and it doesn't matter if
it doesn't really hit the notes you want it too,
as long as any general concept is there. I have

(51:11):
I finished it a few times. I want to tell
you a really fun story because I think this is
really funny. I was so into writing for national level
writing months every single year, and then something happened. On
the eleventh of November eleven, can you imagine what it
might be canny? Can either of you guess what might

(51:31):
have happened on the eleventh of November twenty eleven that
might have stopped me from writing I'll tell you Skyroom
came out. I was like, and I don't know why.
I was like, was going up steadily and hit a
point and it just didn't blatlined completely. Uh. And that year,
because they have like a graph that tracks your word

(51:53):
kind over time, that is the one year where I
just hit, like what I was perfect word kind every
single I us to write sixty seven words to stay
on track, and I hit that day and I didn't
write another word. Terrible. Oh my god. I've actually I've
never done in our remote but I have, like my
bookshelf behind me is just full of like saved bits

(52:17):
and pieces of stories I started and haven't you know
I'm finished or whatever. And that I think was a
big I don't know if it's a failure exactly, but
the area I used to fall short on was endings,
because if you're always starting a story and then not
finishing it at starting, you are not good at finishing.
But actually, to be honest, my real failure here I

(52:38):
think as a writer was maybe last year when I
just did not I don't want to get into necessarily
the specific health concerns, but I can at least talk
about the repetitive motion injuries. I did not realize how
serious those were. Um, and I took them seriously and everything,
but just we're not really set up to accommodate those.

(52:59):
I had to learn, you know, new software. I had
to find ways to even just writing by you know,
because there's voice to text obviously, but it changes how
I write. I have I have noticed that medium and
method mattered to me a lot, which is why sometimes
if I'm stuck on something like really badly with games,
I will sometimes just get out like a pen and

(53:20):
paper and go, okay, like let's get this down. Um,
I don't neglect your health. And I I thought I
was being one of those people that was like, I
am taking it seriously, I am doing some stuff about it.
I'm just just being a trooper. People kept being like, oh,
Kelsey are such a trooper, and I'm like, I know
I should have not. I should have taken a break sooner. Um,

(53:40):
and I hit burnout as a result as well, like
just being creative stop being exciting to me because I
was dealing with so much in terms of my health.
UM So yeah, I think I think I kind of
failed myself on that one because it was really hard
to kind of come back from that place. Um, I
wouldn't recommend it. Yeah, that makes sense. That's something we

(54:02):
were kind of talking about, like right before the podcast,
where are we just talking about breaks? Like Psyche, were
you on? Kind of like a little break I just
took and it was a small thing, but I took.
I took a long weekend this weekend, and I realized,
I'm going to share something that I haven't shared with
anybody yet because I think this is kind of something
that was a sort of weird awakening for me. Um.

(54:23):
I get really big games industry fomo, because I worked
in the games industry for eight years, uh eight years,
ten years, eight years, I don't remember some amount of time.
Um and I left the games industry because I hit
burnight and I started creating content full time. But I
still see cool jobs that are in areas of the
games industry that I find really exciting, and I apply

(54:44):
for them or I get really really interested in them
and I think about applying for them. And I recently
had an opportunity come up, and it was with somebody
who I absolutely loved working with before, and they had
this really great idea and I was like, Oh, that
sounds great, and then they sent me all the information
and I realized I was I was thinking, how can
I fit this in with all the other stuff that

(55:04):
I'm doing? Can I find time that I could do
both with this work? And I realized it had been
like two or three weeks and I hadn't replied to
the person who me the opportunity, and I was like,
I think that's my answer. I don't think I can
fit this him. So I took a long weekend this
weekend and realized that probably wasn't actually enough time. So
I'm going to take another holiday because I think I
need to take some time away. It's hard. I feel

(55:27):
like Bernoyd is one of those things, especially with creative stuff.
Um I imagine from like a narrative design point, especially
if you're really excited by what you do, and if
you're really like you like making games in your spare
time because that's what you enjoy, it could be really
hard to switch off, right, It's oh my god. Yes,
Also my partner is in the games industry, so that

(55:48):
doesn't help. My best friend is in the games industry,
my brother is in the games industry. It can be
so hard to stop. And honestly, my partner John, he's
very good at being like hold on, like, yeah, I'm
talking about it too much again. Um, And he's he's
really sweet about it. Just he's you know, it's out

(56:08):
of he's learned, like he has such a good sense
of a work life balance and it's not that he's
ever you know. Also, his company is great about it,
where if he's putting in a ton of extra time,
he might get like a comp day or something. Um.
Or they're just really encouraging, like if you take time off,
you take the time you know, like if you need
time off, you take the time off. There are a
lot of places that talk a good game about that

(56:30):
sort of thing, and then in practice and they're like,
well it's what the company needs and you're like, yeah,
but yeah, absolutely true. Um. Learning how to kind of
stop that was great, but also just learning how to
kind of separate that out from because it used to

(56:50):
be like if I got writer's block or if I
stopped finding making games fun it was a huge like,
oh my god, who I'm am? I as a human then?
Um and I'm doing it in a silly voice, but
I'm And it kind of was that. It was a
big like foundational Oh my god, this is how I
think of myself, this is who I am, and that's
I guess therein lies the danger of thinking yourself of
yourself as a particular job. Um. But I mean I

(57:13):
am a writer fundamentally, whether that's in a professional capacity
or not. I'm still writing, I'm still creating. So that's
helped me a lot. And it sounds like such a
small like shift in perspective, but it's been huge for me.
That's good. Do you plan to ever write a full novel?

(57:34):
Oh my? Uh? My family asked me that all the time.
Apparently my Granda would always asked me that, um, I might,
actually someday I might. There's something I'm working on an
I p that I'm I'm really I think it's going somewhere.
Um And I don't know what. It's weird because it's

(57:55):
a creative thing I have in my head and I
don't know what the best format, like the best medium
is for it in terms of storytelling. It might be
more of a comic. I'm not sure, but it's really
exciting that I am. I'm at this point in my
life friends with so many creative people that you know,
I can talk to them about it and get I
don't know, ideas back or feedback, or or even just

(58:17):
in terms of like how is this best experienced as
a story? Um, I don't know. I don't know if
it will be. It kind of depends a sonet. It
depends on just um, do I want this to be
a share of project or not, which obviously I have
never in my life had a game where I've written
the story and then like a disseminated now you know,

(58:42):
It's just that's just not what games writing is. So
I do really like the idea of writing, you know,
a novel or something where it's like this is you know,
it might be more like a series of short stories
that are all related or something like that. But I
love the idea of getting to do something where I'm
actually fully and control of what the what the text is.

(59:03):
That's really cool. Um. Something you mentioned earlier, you you said,
I just I kind of want to bring us towards
like a kind of XP boost part of the show,
which is UM, you mentioned advice for people who wanted
to get into like narrative design and writing was to
play games and to make games if you could in
your time, your spare time, even if it's just a
small game or whatever. UM. Apart from that piece of
advice that you've given, do you have any like resources

(59:25):
that you would recommend for people who wanted to get
into narrative designer games writing? Are there any? There are? UM?
I mean there are books and not but what not
that you can read. But actually I would say, if
you want to get into narrative design, what you should
really do is also study a lot of game design,

(59:45):
and there's certainly plenty of resources for that. But specifically, UM,
you're looking for what your text can hook into, what
it can support. Um. Not everyone requires that, not all,
not all games writing jobs require that. I've been using
the two kind of interchangeably because that tends to be
my role. But every project is different. Sometimes you're you

(01:00:08):
might you know if you're a writer that you're just
writing a script and you're not doing as much with
like you know, you're not necessarily going to go contact
the audio team and be like, Okay, like, let's talk
about how this is getting played out and all that.
Um yeah, I just think a really a really solid
understanding of play and of game design just general theories

(01:00:29):
is incredibly useful here. Um man. I really I cannot
recommend playing games enough as as a good way to
do this, though, because just going through you can catalog like,
all right, what are the options that I have here
to kind of disseminate I say, disseminate boy, that's you know,

(01:00:52):
how how are you putting that story information out there
in the world. Um. I would recommend maybe teaching yourself
how to write like a script. Um. I have not
had that many jobs where I needed to do that,
but I'd recommend it. Um It's just a useful skill
to have. And then if you can get some experience
with uh, some experience with stuff like artifice e or

(01:01:15):
um gosh, even like final draft, but ideally some tools
that you can use to implement text in a game, awesome.
I guess specific resources depends a little on what sort
of games you're looking to make as well, Like if
you're looking to work with branching dialogue and you haven't
made a twine game, holy sh it. Great. Yeah, it's

(01:01:36):
a blast. I love that for especially for small Like
what I say with small projects, UM, I know I've
I've already covered that, but having I mean, if you're
if you're applying for these jobs, you're going to have
to provide samples, and a lot of people will take
a lot of different stuff I've sent. Gosh, I mean,
I've sent branching dialogue, and that you have to kind

(01:01:57):
of find a way to you know, implement that. Don't
send the next m L file. Not everyone knows how
to read those, um Honestly, twine, I've I've literally put
conversations in twine and allowed people to click through them
with a static photo or something. UM. That's useful, But
like show that, show that you can do that, UM,

(01:02:18):
and ideally show that you can make a complete piece
of content. So like first first couple of pages of
a script or something is fine. I'm definitely not saying
send a full script, but I am saying, like, in
addition to that, show somewhere on your resume or on
your personal website or wherever that you have completed that script.

(01:02:39):
That's cool. Do you have any other questions before we
hit our wrap up for the day. I don't think
so unless you know, Kelsey, if you'd like to share
with us what's next if you have lands, if you
don't want to share, or if you don't have plans,
that's okay. I personally like, I'm a very fly by
the scene of my pants, let things come to me
lately kind of person. So if you are the same way,
that's totally cool and you don't and have to share

(01:03:01):
your plans. But I'm just curious. Oh no, I was
a schemer. I have always got something going. I am
working on a few like smaller projects with some people. Um,
and we'll see which which of those pan out. But
I am kind of yeah, wrapping up my break now
that I am in better shape and my arms work again.
Actually love that. I can't get enough of it. Um.

(01:03:25):
So yeah, And there are a few studios that I
I am looking at slash talking with, so I'm not
quite sure what the end result is going to be,
but I am. I am excited, which is nice to
be able to say. I do want to ask also,
since we're getting to the wrap up portion, Um, what
are your favorite pastas? Okay, that's a great question. I like, uh,

(01:03:49):
flat pastas, I like all pastas. But I like flat pastas.
I like things that I can make into delicious sources.
And really I just really like carbs prectly honest, but
I'd say probably Linguini. Probably. I'm I'm partial to Penny
because it feels easier to stab with a fork. It's
less messy, there's no tling involved. The trolling can be fun,

(01:04:10):
there's an art to it, but it also can be
like a little messy. And if I'm in a hurry
and I just want pasta in my mouth fast, I
gotta go with Penny plus good good for arranging a
bite with it if you've got like mushrooms and other
things in there. Yes, yeah, yeah, a couple of layers
and a splashing sauce on my face and in my
never eat it with a white shirt on. Yeah, all right,

(01:04:33):
so I guess I will ask then, where can people
find you on the internet? Kelsey Oh, I am on
Twitter under my my my old roller derby name at
van Kelsing that like van Helsing but with a K.
I am also at Kelsey Beacham dot com because way
back in college I saved my own name as a domain.

(01:04:56):
And now, just in case you're a famous sname designer
someday worked out. I wish I'd had that kind of foresight.
It was just available. But yeah, I'm I'm fairly active
on Twitter, but also my website has more of my
contact information. If you're looking to get in touch with
me for something specific, all right, great and Jeff um

(01:05:18):
let's see. People can find me on Twitter at Jess
brow Hard or on Instagram at Jess brow Hard. I'm
not really creating a ton of content these days, but
sometimes I post a little videos and me skating and
playing hockey, both those places. I love that. You can
find me as a psyche twitch dot tv for slash Psyche,
or you can find me a psyche plays on pretty
much all social media except TikTok. I've started making TikTok videos,

(01:05:41):
but psyche plays was taken, so I'm Psyche Twitch because
I couldn't think of anything else. And that's it for today.
Thank you all so much for your support so far.
Please don't forget to follow us on social media at
the Boss Level pod that is Boss Level l v L.
And if you have any suggestions for gas or topics
you'd like to discuss in more debt, be sure to
join our discord. We'll see you in the next episode

(01:06:02):
by