September 5, 2023 • 33 mins
As heated conversations ensue about what the “right” work environments should be in this post-pandemic era: remote, in-office, hybrid: Marisa and Steven look at this issue through the lens of how these decisions can impact corporate and brand reputation. In their most highly charged hot topic yet, the two talk about companies that were absolute in their directive to employees that they could be remote and then did a total reversal: is that simply a company’s right and responsibility to change with circumstances… or in representing one clear thing and then revoking it, have they committed the fatal flaw of breaking brand trust? And what happens when a company whose entire brand and product is about virtual work — aka Zoom —
tells people they need to work in-person? As always, the co-hosts want to know: what do you think?
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hi, and welcome to brand New from the iHeart Podcast
Network and Brand New Labs. I'm Marissa f Alberg.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
And I'm Stephen Wolf Beata Stephen.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
What's new?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
What's new? It's September. It's a new month. Can you
believe it?
Speaker 1 (00:20):
No? I always feel like we get to this time
of year and it's so cliche, but we're always in
that feeling of how did it get to be September already?
And don't you feel that way? How did it get
to be September already?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I do? I mean, it's still kind of being here
in La. I always think of September, I think of fall.
I think of just you know, kind of New York.
It's just so in my mind. I love the fall
in New York. But I'm in LA and it's really
hot and it's just you know, a different five. So
I'm getting used to it.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Well, being in Charlotte. Actually, this is the nicest weather
we've had in a while, so I'm going to enjoy
it and have some family.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
So no hurricanes, no concerns, no rain.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Well that was that passed through already thankfully with no
real damage, just a lot. But it's funny, like I
have family members who just love September and love this
time of year. I always have this twisted feeling about
it because summer just makes me feel happy and it's
this joyful time, and September just feels a little intense
(01:16):
with back to school and travel and everything just sort
of picks right back up, even though it never really
slowed down, at least in my work it didn't. But
how about you. Are you traveling a lot now?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah? I mean I feel like we are going to
be out the gates this month. There's a lot going on,
you know. On the three bas side. You know, we
actually have two films coming out, which is really exciting.
We have this really important film called Aristoto and Dante
Discovered the Secrets of the Universe. I have actually call
it like a Latino broke Back Mountain, produced by Limouel
Miranda and stars Alheno and Eva Longoria. So that's going
(01:48):
to be a lot of fun. And then we have
the film that one at Sundance coming out later in
the fall, called Radical, which is kind of a Latino
inspired dead politic Society if you will, about a real
story about an educator.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Wait, can we get Lynn Manuel Miranda on brand new.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
We can do anything on brand new, so we could
do it all. True, that is true, but there's a
lot of travel. There's a lot of events, and you know,
we're also launching some exciting things, so it is very
very busy. And just throw on top of all that
Hispanic Heritage months, so it'll be busy.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Well, we have to talk more about that.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
What about you, how's your travel?
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I just looked at my calendar to get organized. I
had a little bit of a respite. And when I
say a little bit of a respite, I mean about
two weeks of not really getting on a plane. And
I don't mind the traveling, I really don't. But when
it becomes all the time, just start to feel that
tug of work in life. And you know, even with
(02:42):
a teenager at home and you think, oh, they don't
really need you, they do, so.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
They definitely do. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
But so it's both a good and a bad thing
to have that much travel. But some of it's it's
all work related, but some of it's pretty fun and
exciting and keeps the variety.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yeah, Well, for all the work related stuff, I feel
like it's really going to come very hard and very fast.
I mean certainly things like Advertising Week this year is
in October, you know, in New York. I'm actually going
to both that as well as Advertising Week in Mexico
City that will be in November.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Well, we'll be an Advertising Week hopefully the same time.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Absolutely so.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
And then Forbes CMO even meet.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Some listeners there right because we're playing something Ooh, I like.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Your thinking and that would be quite phenomenal. So yes,
and for me, you know, it's always nice to go home.
I'm going to be in New York in the coming week,
and you know, we've talked a lot about our families.
Having an adult child is still such an adjustment for me,
and the fact that she lives in New York, which
and that we don't is already still very surreal. But
(03:42):
this is the longest I think I've gone without actually
seeing her. Thank you, FaceTime for bridging the gap. So
that's going to be pretty excited.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
It's so not ready for that.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
It's so weird that I'm going to go stay at
my child's apartment. How did this happen?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
She's not a child, Your child always child.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
But yes, it's pretty wild. So turning of the seasons
in so many respects right.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Well, turning of the seasons, you're talking about back to school,
back to work. I feel like this is a really
great time to introduce our hot topic.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
We've just said back to school for the past couple
of weeks, and we've talked it in a couple of
different angles. Back to work is sort of a funny thought.
I mean, are you ever really not working anymore? Except
you know a lot of people do take those traditional
summer vacations. And then I thought it would be interesting
to introduce this idea of back to office. Now, clearly
there's plenty of debate that's already out in the world
(04:35):
about what has transpired since COVID when we were all,
of course maybe not all, but many of us were
working remotely to then becoming hybrid, and now these questions
around should we be in office, shouldn't we be in office?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
So you're just opening the Pandora's box here, we're going
to go there.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
I know. But here's the thing. I felt like, there
are a couple of ways to give this a brand
new take, shall we say, And here's what has really
been striking me as both you know, someone invested in
this issue as an executive, someone who's observing this issue.
What does it mean in the context of brand when
you're a company that's made a promise to your employees
(05:16):
and then you completely revoke that promise, Because to me,
that's a brand issue. It's a brand issue the way
we as marketers have to think about what it means
to be consistent and true and build your reputation as
a brand. Part of having a reputation as a person,
as a company, as an executive is being trustworthy. And
(05:41):
we've seen some recent examples that have made quite a
bit of news, especially across the summer of companies where
it was in one case, a new leader, like the
CEO of Farmers, new leader who came in and they
were absolute. They told their employees you could work from
home forever, and people made major life changes like they
(06:03):
sold homes, they relocated, and then this new CEO comes
in and he basically orders them back and lo and behold.
That didn't go over very well.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Well, it was a new CEO, right, So is the
brand promise that was broken on the executive's part. Do
employees really care because it was the company and certainly
they kind of view it through the company lens, Regardless
of whoever the leader is. But this is a serious
issue because it also ties to our last episode yes
where we spoke with Ziad about gen Z and they
(06:35):
just really view remote works so differently. And I think
a lot of these norms have been broken through COVID.
But it's interesting. I don't think we've really heard about
the brand new angle around brand. How do you kind
of view because obviously you've worked in big companies and
certainly people make promises in the moment that they're in,
(06:55):
the time that they're in the quarter whatever, you know,
the business cycle. But things change, and so is it
really a broken promise when the business changes? I mean,
we were in a growth environment, you're now in a
recessionary environment. You just had to do layoffs. What does
a company do in that kind of scenario? Is it
really a brand promise that's been broken? In your view?
Speaker 1 (07:15):
In this case, it is. And I'll tell you why.
You're right. Companies, people evolve, they change circumstances dictate that.
But it's really problematic. If you say one thing in
an absolute way and you represent that and then you
do a complete and sharp reversal of that, then who
(07:37):
are you, like? What good is your word. So for me,
that's where the betrayal comes in. If a company, throughout
this period of uncertainty has.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Is it a betrayal. That's a big word that has
a lot of weight to it.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
It is I'm going to get well, I know, I'm
kind of putting myself out there at this point of
view because I'll tell you where the difference is had
the company And this is where brands have to really think.
I'm using brands and companies a little interchangeably here, but
it is about your corporate reputation. I mean, this company
made a lot of headlines and probably not the most
favorable or savory way. Why because it was I mean,
(08:14):
you're talking about people's lives, you're talking about their livelihoods,
you're talking about life decisions they made. What I was
going to say before is had they just spoken in
a way that's a little bit more nuanced and vulnerable,
which is how humans behave. Like we don't know exactly
what the future is going to bring. We think we're
(08:34):
going to continue hybrid work, but we're going to continue
to reserve the right to evolve as circumstances evolved. That's
not a broken promise. That's being forthcoming with saying we
don't have all the answers, so stay with us, hang
with us, be adaptable. But when you specifically tell people
one thing that they make life decisions and then you
(08:56):
change your mind and you seem kind of heartless or
just tone deaf, you're like, hey, we're being really generous
for giving you three months to figure it out. Well,
three months isn't a lot. If you've sold your home,
relocated your family, hired your childcare, brought relatives along, it's
not a lot. And that's why there were two thousand
comments featuring crying and angry emojis, you know, all over
social media platforms. And they're not the only company.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yeah, I mean this has actually been rampant in the
tech space where of all industries, and you know, maybe
there is an angle to this where it might be
industry specific, but specifically in technology. You would have thought
that all big tech, that they have all the infrastructure,
all the scale, they would really empower their employees to
work remotely. I know, you know, just from my perspective.
(09:38):
BEFO our startup in Contest, we went one hundred percent
remote once the pandemic hit, and we never went back. Yeah,
it was great because we found talent all over and
I feel that certainly in the technologies field, certainly there's
an argument to be made for being in person and
you know, kind of collaborating and being in you know,
in front of a whiteboard. I love all that. But
on an engineering driven company, you could find ways to
(10:01):
meet up either once a month, whatever the frequency is.
But I feel like that is one sector that I
was kind of surprised that they've been so forceful to
get people back into the office, and I think most
of them are now trying to do this hybrid like
three days a week thing. Yeah, and I think a
lot of folks, certainly the folks that we know, they're
not happy about it.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
You mentioned gen Z And what's interesting is there have
been studies conducted by Harvard by the Society of Human
Resources Executives, I mean, really like reputable studies that show
that the majority of Americans across demographics and interestingly, not
just white collar workers, but there are blue collar worker
(10:40):
jobs too. Just so this doesn't seem like an elitist
issue where there are forms of hybrid work that have
become available and most people do want and have an
expectation now of a different degree of flexibility. So look,
I have my own point of view about it. I
guess my point of view is a little mixed too.
I like being in person when I can be in person,
But I chose a role in this current chapter of
(11:02):
my life that's allowed me to commute. And I don't
know that I ever would have thought about that as
something feasible or even desirable, And it became incredibly desirable
to me because I learned how effectively I could work
and build culture and build a team through a screen.
And when I'm in person, I feel delighted to be
(11:23):
in person, but I have a distributed team across the country.
There is no such thing as us all being in
one office. So it were lucky to be able to
make it work, and I feel lucky to have a
different level of flexibility in my life. And you know what,
that became a huge selling point for why I took
a role that maybe I wouldn't have considered in a
different stage. So I think that's where a lot of
(11:45):
people are. I think companies are really struggling to reconcile that.
And it is interesting that the research is more clear
than what some people are saying it is, which is
that it's conclusive that we should be back in the office.
It's not not true.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, So I think what you're hitting on is something
that is really never has been truly factored in as
importantly as it is now, where location and where you
get to work is really a part of the company's brand.
Think about the announcement that Airbnb made where they said
that you could work anywhere in the world and be
(12:21):
a part of Airbnb. That was a bold statement that
now is a part of their brand equity that is
going to be part of what is going to attract
new talent to go to that company. And I think
they've been transparent about maybe your salary, your compackage is
going to be different depending on the city that you
live in, Okay, and so they're trying to adjust it
that way.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
That's transparently.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah, and so, but certainly I think other companies or
in other industries, they don't have that flexibility. I Mean,
one of the things that I've always found really interesting
is just the way New York is designed. It's really
designed for people to be in offices, right like you
need to go to work or US New York city
doesn't work to a large extent, and that's part of
the reason why the financial services industry has been so
(13:02):
adamant to get people back in the office. And so
all my friends they're all in the office, like not
really even like two three days a week, Like they're
there five days a week.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Well, commercial real estate doesn't like it so much. And
when you think about the office vacancy right now in
big cities like New York, and.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
That's a huge issue. But I feel like we're still
at this, you know, kind of very early stage where
how does location really impact a brand and how they're
going to attract talent. I feel like it's going to
be wildly important for certain industries and sectors. And I
also feel like people don't want to go back to
the way it was. I mean, when you think about
working families, I mean, I have young kids. The fact
(13:39):
that I could walk my kids to school for every
day that I'm here and not on the road, that's
hugely valuable to me. And so I want to figure
out ways that anyone listening, how do you really factor
in to the companies that you're working at, How do
you factor into your comp package these intangibles that probably
don't always get noticed, but increasingly I think they're going
(13:59):
to be very very important as part of negotiations that come.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
I agree. But just going back to this idea of
when is it a betrayal and when it's not. It's
when you make a promise and you break it that
it's a betrayal. So if you never promised it, it's
not a betrayal.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
But what happens if the facts change? I mean literally,
you never want to have a black Swan event. You
don't want to have another God Forbid nine to eleven,
those kind of things. But economic recession, those kind of things,
is that then breaking the brand promise? And I feel
like a lot of it has to do with the
executive and deleter. The crux of all this is the
importance of communication, right, how effective we do organizations and
(14:38):
leaders communicate And obviously it's more difficult in a remote environment,
but you have to find a way to have the
communication channel. And I think there's lots of examples where
companies have gotten backlashes, you know, recently, things that have
to do with either a Hispanic Heritage month or Pride
or Black history. I mean, you see all the things
that are going on, and I feel like companies are
(14:59):
in reason we scaling things back, and I don't know
if that's the right move. You know, I think leaning
in and really understanding who your primary audience is and
it's really not your customers, it's your employees. How are
you super serving your employees first?
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Well? Isn't that the fatal flaw when companies forget that
you're as good as your talent and how you treat them.
And Okay, I'm going to read you this. I found this.
This is a Reddit thread. The company is left anonymous,
but this poster wrote a couple of paragraphs, so I
hope it's okay to read this, but I think it's
really interesting. The headline is company ended remote work today.
(15:34):
After three wonderful years of waking up five minutes before
my morning's stand up, spending breaks walking my dogs in
a nearby forest, or taking care of chores so I
didn't have to spend my weekends on them, and saving
thousands of dollars on commute expenses, my works executive team
announced a mandatory return to office this morning. This here's
the rep. This comes after they repeatedly announced that work
(15:56):
from home had been a resounding success, had improved productivity
and save the company millions.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Remember that data point that, oh they're saving all this
money right.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
See, this is where I struggle in sympathy with this worker.
Even promising and writing that work from home would be
a permanent change. Many of my coworkers moved or sold
their cars as a result of those promises. Now it's
looking like anyone who can't or won't comply with the
order will be fired. Here's the final couple sentences, and
it's very cynical and it's dark, but this is a
real poster. Remember everyone, no matter how great you think
(16:27):
your company is, no matter what your bosses promise you,
we're all still just red lines and alleger to them
to be cut or replace whenever they feel like it.
Never trust an executive, never give them anything but the
bare minimum. Now, I obviously don't subscribe to that belief
at all at all, But that's that is the collateral
damage that was left. And if that feeling is magnified
(16:49):
by the most significant percentage of this company's employee base,
I think it's safe to say this company's not going
to be doing so well. So what was the real
cost of this decision remains to be seen.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
But that's the real talk that's coming from employees that
feel either taken advantage of or you know, look, we've
all worked in these industries, whether it's you know, finance
or you know, certainly the media industry, advertising technology, there
is a feeling where you are being taken for granted.
And sure, we all think that we're probably incredible, and
(17:23):
we're all very talented, and certainly some people might have
delusions of grandeur, think they're better than they actually are.
You know, I'll throw myself included into that. Everyone has
a healthy ego. But the truth of the matter is
ultimately you're running a business and to play a little
bit of Devil's advocate. Once the business changes, how are
you doing things to ensure that If you're a public company,
(17:44):
how are you delivering for shareholders? It's very black and white.
I'm not saying that it's right, but I could understand
the logic coming from that vector. And so you really
need to super serve your employees to make sure that
you are taking care of them, that you know you
are compensating to them, that you're incentivizing them. But when
you trip up, when you actually make a mistake. Those
are the moments where actually you lose your brand equity,
(18:07):
you lose the credibility. I think that's the breaking of
the brand promise that you're talking about. And I think
a lot of employees feel that way because they feel
like they're just a line item and they're only may
be one bad quarter away from getting fired.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
And that's the point, right The point is you and
I r C suite executives. We have to be part
of decisions that are sometimes not popular, that are sometimes
really tough. But if you can't find a way to
communicate it with trust, you'll never earn it, and if
you can't be somewhat consistent, you'll never maintain it. Let's
(18:41):
take a little break and when we come back, let's
lighten this up a little, have a little fun with it,
although it's still through the lens of brands. Be right back.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
And we're back, all right. So that was certainly heavy.
It was you know, real talk, but not always fun.
And I feel like we're really getting to something that
I think a lot of listeners will find very interesting
and we'll probably agreeing with a lot of the real
conversation around what's happening at companies, decisions, broken promises. But Marissa,
(19:14):
how would you kind of think about this? What if
your brand was really all about remote work and you
insist all of a sudden that everyone needs to come
back to the office.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Who could you be talking about?
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Maybe a company like Zoom. Perhaps I don't know like
that decision. I mean, obviously I love Zoom, I use
it all the time. But I was shocked by that
decision because you are a tech company and your product
is all about remote work. How can you be there
requiring people to come back.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
What's that about talk about grabbing head I mean they
had to know they were going to grab some headlines.
Do you think when Zoom, the company that essentially became
the poster child for remote work in the sense of
enabling us to video conference, now refutes the idea that
their own product is the best way to get work
(20:05):
done because they're telling everyone to come to the office.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
And it's funny.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
You want to know another example? How about Meta aka
formerly known as Facebook. And I was reading on my LinkedIn.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
That's a loaded one, right, because well.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Okay, I have to read you this great quote. This
guy Oggi Ray who I follow, Who's Gartner used to
be at Forrester, I think he posted about this and
he wrote, Metta is threatening to dismiss employees who don't
show up in the office three days a week. If
only the company could develop I don't know, some sort
of virtual working space. They could call it the metaverse
(20:41):
or something like that. I mean, I just thought that
was really funny.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
That's where the stark is off the charts. But obviously
these are easy either punchlines or punching bags. You know,
you take your pick, But when you think about what
is really at the heart of these decisions. I mean,
for me, I think we're at a moment where people
are really trying to struggle how do I find the
best way to engage my team, my employees, and if
(21:06):
you're an executive, how you're running the company. And I
think that people are realizing the value of having things
in person. And I know, you know, for three Pus,
you know we are one hundred percent virtual, but we
crave the ability to be in person to kind of
bounce ideas. I mean, we are a creative company, right
We're making content, We're making TV and film. How do
we find ways to id eight? And you just can't
(21:29):
beat in person. And I'm not saying that it has
to be five days a week, you know, seven days
kind of working all the time. But I feel like
there needs to be this happy meaning that everyone is
struggling with. And so even a company like Zoom making
a technology product, they probably are missing from a product
and an engineering perspective, the benefits of collaborating in person.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I get it, and I think you're right. I do
think it's situational, though, and there's going to be now
a spectrum. But I'll tell you the big conclusion for
me is if there is forever now or at least
for the foreseeable future, some spectrums, some variations on hybrid meaning,
and any given time, you might have some people who
(22:08):
are together, and you might have some people who are virtual.
You might have situations where you're seeing people in person
every day, and then some people in your team you've
never met. And I know, you know, when I was
at Low's and all this was first happening, and I
think about it now in the role that I have
where it's a more distributed team because people in parks
(22:29):
all across the country, that there is this need to
just And in both cases, I was a new leader,
I should note that having to figure out how to
compensate in some ways for those discrepancies, how to be
thoughtful about it. And I'm not saying I have it
all figured out, but I know it makes me as
a leader that much more purposeful about relationships and about
(22:57):
making your own authenticity and concern for people and your
personality kind of burst through the screen, because you're going
to have to find a way to build those relationships,
both in the real and the virtual worlds, and those
relationships should feel in many ways equally good regardless of
(23:18):
that situation.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
But you are able to do that. I think that's
one of your superpowers. You have certainly empathy, and you
know people are just attracted. They want to work with you,
they want to be on your teams. I think that
it's really hard to be a manager. If you are
mid level manager, you're a director level, you're a VP level,
you have a big team, a distributed team, And what
if you don't have that personality, What if you're an
(23:39):
introvert right, what if you aren't able to come through
the screen. It's really hard to lead in a virtual environment.
You know, you could only slack so much. You can
only text so much, email so much, and I feel
like there is a way that you miss the chance
to kind of learn things in those quiet moments right
where you can just hang out in someone's office or
you're talking with somebody, And I feel that there is
(24:02):
just a level of mentorship that really, you know, needs
to be reinvented. I mean, I've been mentoring for over
twenty five years.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yes you have.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
It's the kind of thing where I take it so
personally because I want folks to be able to be inspired.
How do you find your purpose? How do you find
your achy?
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Guy?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Like, I talk about this all the time, but a
lot of that stuff doesn't necessarily have to happen through
a virtual environment. I feel like there are ways that
you could do things in person, and then absolutely you
could find ways to engage and just really get folks
to kind of do the work virtually, and it could
be in an asynchronous way, but there has to be
(24:40):
a way that you can meet in the middle. And
I think that the path forward is going to be
an and the power of and is not going to
be one way.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Hey, we're acting like everyone was always in the same
building with each other. Have you ever led or worked
on a global team.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Yeah, that's I mean, that's really true.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
It's actually me and I worked at companies or read
people in different time zones literally around the world. Now
at least we can see their faces versus the remote
nature of being on a conference call where everyone's disembodied
and you don't really know what people are doing. I mean, yes,
it's tedious.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
So so then why do you think there's this put for
that then, Because to your point, I mean, you know,
when I was at Publics, I mean, Publicas is a
ginormous company, we had people all around the world. We
would certainly meet. When I work for Laura Desmond kind
of her global leadership team, you know, we would meet
in Stockholm, we would go to Buennes Aidas like we
would have like an annual meeting to bring all the
leaders from around stark on media vests to meet in person.
(25:31):
But you know, we all operated virtually.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Look, I think it's about continuing to be thoughtful and
reinvent and understand that there isn't going to be a
one size of itself solution anymore, and instead of railing
against what it's become, finding ways to embrace what it
can be.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
But I think the headline is this absolutely is variable
in the equation of a company's brand, and I feel
like it's really important to kind of flip it. How
is this going to impact you and your brand? If
you're listening and you know you're thinking about, Okay, where
do I really shine? How do I make an impact
that work? How am I going to cut through the clutter?
I would say, be in the office, right Be in
(26:13):
the office, because that's how you will either be visible certainly,
you know, do everything that you're doing virtually and remotely,
but really showing up and kind of going that extra mile.
I think people will notice that.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Well, I'm going to half agree with you and have
disagree with you to wrap this up. So what do
I agree with? This is now about thinking about your
brand and how your brand thrives in this new world.
What I disagree with is the only answer to that
is to be in the office, because you might not
have that situation. What if your headquarters is in London
and you're based in Dallas. I don't know. So I
(26:45):
think the right salvo is to say, part of the
challenge for companies is to get this right, and I
propose to do it a lousenticity. Part of the challenge
for you as a worker is to figure out how
you can be successful in making your presence fell well introvert, extrovert,
in person, remote, That's the new challenge, isn't it to
make your presence felt in whatever conditions which you are
(27:07):
now working for sure.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Whether you're in a remote location like London, like there's
still an office right unless it's completely virtual and there's
no office space in wherever that remote location is. I
do feel that this is going to be a topic
that comes up increasingly as part of certainly gen z
up and coming talent into every single industry, and it's
really going to define how brands and companies react to it,
(27:29):
the way they respond to remote work, the what they're
going to offer. And I really do view this as
a new form of compensation. If you could actually negotiate
a really great base salary, get your bonus. Ideally you
have equity, and if you don't have equity, that needs
to be a part of everyone's conversation. It's always a gas.
It's shocking when companies don't compensate with equity, whether it's
(27:50):
a public or a private company. And then I feel
like location. That's going to be like the fourth pillar
of your compackage. And hey, do I get to work remotely?
Do I get to have the ability to come in
two three times a week having that flexibility? That is
going to be the new form of conversation.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Well, on that note, we're talking about what it means
for you and your brand. So let's pivot to what's
on your minds up next.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
And we're back for certainly one of our favorite segments, Marissa,
what's on your mind? We love hearing from our listeners.
Now it's the time for understanding. What are the kind
of key questions that you guys are sending us. We
want to hear from you, So please let us know
what you're wondering, what you want us to answer. Send
us an email to ideas at brandshnew dot com. And
(28:37):
we're really excited about our question for this episode. Marissa,
read it out.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Okay, this is from Michelle. How about the topic of
AI as a partner in the work we do as marketers.
In other words, AI is a teammate and a valued partner.
Love to hear what folks think, Steven.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
I don't know, I mean, does does AI get a
labor day. Do you think AI cares about remote work?
Speaker 1 (29:04):
When I sometimes write questions into like chat GPT, I
feel like I'm hurting its feelings when I keep coming
back at it for more. So maybe I need to remember, No,
it doesn't care.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
It definitely doesn't care. It doesn't sleep. Look, I'd be
very curious to get your take and how kind of
big companies are leveraging it. Look, the reality is AI
has been with us for a very long time. We
just don't know it. I mean, whether you think of
things like Alexa and Siri and all the different types
of voice apps, that's all driven by machine learning. So
(29:37):
AI surrounds us and I think the magic of it
is really when it's invisible. So really understand the power
of machine learning across all these different things. I mean literally,
when you type in Google Search and it's already prompting
the question as you just type in the first couple
of words, all that is AI. I think, specifically with
respect to this question from Michelle, I think the idea
(29:58):
of AI tools that are now being almost like verticalized,
and certainly chet Gipt was the first real consumer application
bring this to masses. I mean, it just past huge milestones.
Now they have their enterprise offering. So you're starting to
see AI tools in every single category from creative and
design to cooking to you name it. And I feel like,
(30:21):
of course it's inevitable. It's going to be woven into
the fabric. I think a key part. And you know,
everyone knows about the Hollywood strike that continues to go
where the writers went on strike first and then the actors,
and it's still going. It's now September, and you know,
my prediction is maybe it will last till December, and
if it goes beyond that into the new year, I mean,
it's really going to have a toll. But I feel
(30:43):
that people are going to figure out how best to
leverage AI. You cannot put this genie back in the box.
This is absolutely Is it a box, is it a bottle?
I don't know, but the genie's out there and so
understanding the power of leveraging AI tools. It is not
necessarily going to take your job outright. It will take jobs,
for sure, but for you specifically to learn how to
(31:03):
leverage these tools in your day to day, you should
be testing and learning life and beta. Use a tool,
use you know, notion notion has has an AI component
to it now to help you write. Literally, it's going
to be incorporating to everything, and I just feel like it's
really going to be a question of how best are
you leveraging these tools, because it will be a part
of every single job. Marisa, I don't have a lot to.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Add because I think you said it really well. But
I'll just go back to the spirit of the question,
which is teammate and partner. I think that is the
best way for us to start thinking about it. It's
been a topic of incredible provocation and clickbait and fear.
A lot of these things are but you're right, Steven,
(31:45):
it's been here for a long time. We just haven't
talked about it or haven't understood it. Hit it real
tipping point with the introduction of chat GPT not even
a year ago, and yet we feel like the whole
world has changed, and perhaps it has. I think the
teammate is the right way to look at It's not
going to replace some of the things that are I
believe fundamental to our humanity and our talent as leaders
(32:09):
as workers, which is judgment, intuition, connecting dots, but it
can be a tool that helps us do our jobs
better if we use it the right way. So Michelle,
you're on the right track in my opinion. All right,
I think that's all we have time for. But thank
you for joining us, and if you liked it, don't
forget to follow us at the Brand New Podcast wherever
you listen to your podcast so you never miss an episode, and.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
We want to hear from you, so please again, let
us know what you're wondering about. What are your questions,
what do you want to know, including things like AI
and brand and you know, whatever is happening with Mersus's daughter,
or you know whatever's going on in New York. But
please do us a favor, leave a rating, review something
on Apple Podcasts wherever you listen to pods you know,
certainly feed that algorithm. Spread the word and join us
(32:54):
next time for What's brand New
Hi, and welcome to brand New from the iHeart Podcast
Network and Brand New Labs. I'm Marissa f Alberg.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
And I'm Stephen Wolf Beata Stephen.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
What's new?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
What's new? It's September. It's a new month. Can you
believe it?
Speaker 1 (00:20):
No? I always feel like we get to this time
of year and it's so cliche, but we're always in
that feeling of how did it get to be September already?
And don't you feel that way? How did it get
to be September already?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I do? I mean, it's still kind of being here
in La. I always think of September, I think of fall.
I think of just you know, kind of New York.
It's just so in my mind. I love the fall
in New York. But I'm in LA and it's really
hot and it's just you know, a different five. So
I'm getting used to it.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Well, being in Charlotte. Actually, this is the nicest weather
we've had in a while, so I'm going to enjoy
it and have some family.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
So no hurricanes, no concerns, no rain.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Well that was that passed through already thankfully with no
real damage, just a lot. But it's funny, like I
have family members who just love September and love this
time of year. I always have this twisted feeling about
it because summer just makes me feel happy and it's
this joyful time, and September just feels a little intense
(01:16):
with back to school and travel and everything just sort
of picks right back up, even though it never really
slowed down, at least in my work it didn't. But
how about you. Are you traveling a lot now?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah? I mean I feel like we are going to
be out the gates this month. There's a lot going on,
you know. On the three bas side. You know, we
actually have two films coming out, which is really exciting.
We have this really important film called Aristoto and Dante
Discovered the Secrets of the Universe. I have actually call
it like a Latino broke Back Mountain, produced by Limouel
Miranda and stars Alheno and Eva Longoria. So that's going
(01:48):
to be a lot of fun. And then we have
the film that one at Sundance coming out later in
the fall, called Radical, which is kind of a Latino
inspired dead politic Society if you will, about a real
story about an educator.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Wait, can we get Lynn Manuel Miranda on brand new.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
We can do anything on brand new, so we could
do it all. True, that is true, but there's a
lot of travel. There's a lot of events, and you know,
we're also launching some exciting things, so it is very
very busy. And just throw on top of all that
Hispanic Heritage months, so it'll be busy.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Well, we have to talk more about that.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
What about you, how's your travel?
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I just looked at my calendar to get organized. I
had a little bit of a respite. And when I
say a little bit of a respite, I mean about
two weeks of not really getting on a plane. And
I don't mind the traveling, I really don't. But when
it becomes all the time, just start to feel that
tug of work in life. And you know, even with
(02:42):
a teenager at home and you think, oh, they don't
really need you, they do, so.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
They definitely do. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
But so it's both a good and a bad thing
to have that much travel. But some of it's it's
all work related, but some of it's pretty fun and
exciting and keeps the variety.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yeah, Well, for all the work related stuff, I feel
like it's really going to come very hard and very fast.
I mean certainly things like Advertising Week this year is
in October, you know, in New York. I'm actually going
to both that as well as Advertising Week in Mexico
City that will be in November.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Well, we'll be an Advertising Week hopefully the same time.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Absolutely so.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
And then Forbes CMO even meet.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Some listeners there right because we're playing something Ooh, I like.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Your thinking and that would be quite phenomenal. So yes,
and for me, you know, it's always nice to go home.
I'm going to be in New York in the coming week,
and you know, we've talked a lot about our families.
Having an adult child is still such an adjustment for me,
and the fact that she lives in New York, which
and that we don't is already still very surreal. But
(03:42):
this is the longest I think I've gone without actually
seeing her. Thank you, FaceTime for bridging the gap. So
that's going to be pretty excited.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
It's so not ready for that.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
It's so weird that I'm going to go stay at
my child's apartment. How did this happen?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
She's not a child, Your child always child.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
But yes, it's pretty wild. So turning of the seasons
in so many respects right.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Well, turning of the seasons, you're talking about back to school,
back to work. I feel like this is a really
great time to introduce our hot topic.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
We've just said back to school for the past couple
of weeks, and we've talked it in a couple of
different angles. Back to work is sort of a funny thought.
I mean, are you ever really not working anymore? Except
you know a lot of people do take those traditional
summer vacations. And then I thought it would be interesting
to introduce this idea of back to office. Now, clearly
there's plenty of debate that's already out in the world
(04:35):
about what has transpired since COVID when we were all,
of course maybe not all, but many of us were
working remotely to then becoming hybrid, and now these questions
around should we be in office, shouldn't we be in office?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
So you're just opening the Pandora's box here, we're going
to go there.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
I know. But here's the thing. I felt like, there
are a couple of ways to give this a brand
new take, shall we say, And here's what has really
been striking me as both you know, someone invested in
this issue as an executive, someone who's observing this issue.
What does it mean in the context of brand when
you're a company that's made a promise to your employees
(05:16):
and then you completely revoke that promise, Because to me,
that's a brand issue. It's a brand issue the way
we as marketers have to think about what it means
to be consistent and true and build your reputation as
a brand. Part of having a reputation as a person,
as a company, as an executive is being trustworthy. And
(05:41):
we've seen some recent examples that have made quite a
bit of news, especially across the summer of companies where
it was in one case, a new leader, like the
CEO of Farmers, new leader who came in and they
were absolute. They told their employees you could work from
home forever, and people made major life changes like they
(06:03):
sold homes, they relocated, and then this new CEO comes
in and he basically orders them back and lo and behold.
That didn't go over very well.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Well, it was a new CEO, right, So is the
brand promise that was broken on the executive's part. Do
employees really care because it was the company and certainly
they kind of view it through the company lens, Regardless
of whoever the leader is. But this is a serious
issue because it also ties to our last episode yes
where we spoke with Ziad about gen Z and they
(06:35):
just really view remote works so differently. And I think
a lot of these norms have been broken through COVID.
But it's interesting. I don't think we've really heard about
the brand new angle around brand. How do you kind
of view because obviously you've worked in big companies and
certainly people make promises in the moment that they're in,
(06:55):
the time that they're in the quarter whatever, you know,
the business cycle. But things change, and so is it
really a broken promise when the business changes? I mean,
we were in a growth environment, you're now in a
recessionary environment. You just had to do layoffs. What does
a company do in that kind of scenario? Is it
really a brand promise that's been broken? In your view?
Speaker 1 (07:15):
In this case, it is. And I'll tell you why.
You're right. Companies, people evolve, they change circumstances dictate that.
But it's really problematic. If you say one thing in
an absolute way and you represent that and then you
do a complete and sharp reversal of that, then who
(07:37):
are you, like? What good is your word. So for me,
that's where the betrayal comes in. If a company, throughout
this period of uncertainty has.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Is it a betrayal. That's a big word that has
a lot of weight to it.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
It is I'm going to get well, I know, I'm
kind of putting myself out there at this point of
view because I'll tell you where the difference is had
the company And this is where brands have to really think.
I'm using brands and companies a little interchangeably here, but
it is about your corporate reputation. I mean, this company
made a lot of headlines and probably not the most
favorable or savory way. Why because it was I mean,
(08:14):
you're talking about people's lives, you're talking about their livelihoods,
you're talking about life decisions they made. What I was
going to say before is had they just spoken in
a way that's a little bit more nuanced and vulnerable,
which is how humans behave. Like we don't know exactly
what the future is going to bring. We think we're
(08:34):
going to continue hybrid work, but we're going to continue
to reserve the right to evolve as circumstances evolved. That's
not a broken promise. That's being forthcoming with saying we
don't have all the answers, so stay with us, hang
with us, be adaptable. But when you specifically tell people
one thing that they make life decisions and then you
(08:56):
change your mind and you seem kind of heartless or
just tone deaf, you're like, hey, we're being really generous
for giving you three months to figure it out. Well,
three months isn't a lot. If you've sold your home,
relocated your family, hired your childcare, brought relatives along, it's
not a lot. And that's why there were two thousand
comments featuring crying and angry emojis, you know, all over
social media platforms. And they're not the only company.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yeah, I mean this has actually been rampant in the
tech space where of all industries, and you know, maybe
there is an angle to this where it might be
industry specific, but specifically in technology. You would have thought
that all big tech, that they have all the infrastructure,
all the scale, they would really empower their employees to
work remotely. I know, you know, just from my perspective.
(09:38):
BEFO our startup in Contest, we went one hundred percent
remote once the pandemic hit, and we never went back. Yeah,
it was great because we found talent all over and
I feel that certainly in the technologies field, certainly there's
an argument to be made for being in person and
you know, kind of collaborating and being in you know,
in front of a whiteboard. I love all that. But
on an engineering driven company, you could find ways to
(10:01):
meet up either once a month, whatever the frequency is.
But I feel like that is one sector that I
was kind of surprised that they've been so forceful to
get people back into the office, and I think most
of them are now trying to do this hybrid like
three days a week thing. Yeah, and I think a
lot of folks, certainly the folks that we know, they're
not happy about it.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
You mentioned gen Z And what's interesting is there have
been studies conducted by Harvard by the Society of Human
Resources Executives, I mean, really like reputable studies that show
that the majority of Americans across demographics and interestingly, not
just white collar workers, but there are blue collar worker
(10:40):
jobs too. Just so this doesn't seem like an elitist
issue where there are forms of hybrid work that have
become available and most people do want and have an
expectation now of a different degree of flexibility. So look,
I have my own point of view about it. I
guess my point of view is a little mixed too.
I like being in person when I can be in person,
But I chose a role in this current chapter of
(11:02):
my life that's allowed me to commute. And I don't
know that I ever would have thought about that as
something feasible or even desirable, And it became incredibly desirable
to me because I learned how effectively I could work
and build culture and build a team through a screen.
And when I'm in person, I feel delighted to be
(11:23):
in person, but I have a distributed team across the country.
There is no such thing as us all being in
one office. So it were lucky to be able to
make it work, and I feel lucky to have a
different level of flexibility in my life. And you know what,
that became a huge selling point for why I took
a role that maybe I wouldn't have considered in a
different stage. So I think that's where a lot of
(11:45):
people are. I think companies are really struggling to reconcile that.
And it is interesting that the research is more clear
than what some people are saying it is, which is
that it's conclusive that we should be back in the office.
It's not not true.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, So I think what you're hitting on is something
that is really never has been truly factored in as
importantly as it is now, where location and where you
get to work is really a part of the company's brand.
Think about the announcement that Airbnb made where they said
that you could work anywhere in the world and be
(12:21):
a part of Airbnb. That was a bold statement that
now is a part of their brand equity that is
going to be part of what is going to attract
new talent to go to that company. And I think
they've been transparent about maybe your salary, your compackage is
going to be different depending on the city that you
live in, Okay, and so they're trying to adjust it
that way.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
That's transparently.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah, and so, but certainly I think other companies or
in other industries, they don't have that flexibility. I Mean,
one of the things that I've always found really interesting
is just the way New York is designed. It's really
designed for people to be in offices, right like you
need to go to work or US New York city
doesn't work to a large extent, and that's part of
the reason why the financial services industry has been so
(13:02):
adamant to get people back in the office. And so
all my friends they're all in the office, like not
really even like two three days a week, Like they're
there five days a week.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Well, commercial real estate doesn't like it so much. And
when you think about the office vacancy right now in
big cities like New York, and.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
That's a huge issue. But I feel like we're still
at this, you know, kind of very early stage where
how does location really impact a brand and how they're
going to attract talent. I feel like it's going to
be wildly important for certain industries and sectors. And I
also feel like people don't want to go back to
the way it was. I mean, when you think about
working families, I mean, I have young kids. The fact
(13:39):
that I could walk my kids to school for every
day that I'm here and not on the road, that's
hugely valuable to me. And so I want to figure
out ways that anyone listening, how do you really factor
in to the companies that you're working at, How do
you factor into your comp package these intangibles that probably
don't always get noticed, but increasingly I think they're going
(13:59):
to be very very important as part of negotiations that come.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
I agree. But just going back to this idea of
when is it a betrayal and when it's not. It's
when you make a promise and you break it that
it's a betrayal. So if you never promised it, it's
not a betrayal.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
But what happens if the facts change? I mean literally,
you never want to have a black Swan event. You
don't want to have another God Forbid nine to eleven,
those kind of things. But economic recession, those kind of things,
is that then breaking the brand promise? And I feel
like a lot of it has to do with the
executive and deleter. The crux of all this is the
importance of communication, right, how effective we do organizations and
(14:38):
leaders communicate And obviously it's more difficult in a remote environment,
but you have to find a way to have the
communication channel. And I think there's lots of examples where
companies have gotten backlashes, you know, recently, things that have
to do with either a Hispanic Heritage month or Pride
or Black history. I mean, you see all the things
that are going on, and I feel like companies are
(14:59):
in reason we scaling things back, and I don't know
if that's the right move. You know, I think leaning
in and really understanding who your primary audience is and
it's really not your customers, it's your employees. How are
you super serving your employees first?
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Well? Isn't that the fatal flaw when companies forget that
you're as good as your talent and how you treat them.
And Okay, I'm going to read you this. I found this.
This is a Reddit thread. The company is left anonymous,
but this poster wrote a couple of paragraphs, so I
hope it's okay to read this, but I think it's
really interesting. The headline is company ended remote work today.
(15:34):
After three wonderful years of waking up five minutes before
my morning's stand up, spending breaks walking my dogs in
a nearby forest, or taking care of chores so I
didn't have to spend my weekends on them, and saving
thousands of dollars on commute expenses, my works executive team
announced a mandatory return to office this morning. This here's
the rep. This comes after they repeatedly announced that work
(15:56):
from home had been a resounding success, had improved productivity
and save the company millions.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Remember that data point that, oh they're saving all this
money right.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
See, this is where I struggle in sympathy with this worker.
Even promising and writing that work from home would be
a permanent change. Many of my coworkers moved or sold
their cars as a result of those promises. Now it's
looking like anyone who can't or won't comply with the
order will be fired. Here's the final couple sentences, and
it's very cynical and it's dark, but this is a
real poster. Remember everyone, no matter how great you think
(16:27):
your company is, no matter what your bosses promise you,
we're all still just red lines and alleger to them
to be cut or replace whenever they feel like it.
Never trust an executive, never give them anything but the
bare minimum. Now, I obviously don't subscribe to that belief
at all at all, But that's that is the collateral
damage that was left. And if that feeling is magnified
(16:49):
by the most significant percentage of this company's employee base,
I think it's safe to say this company's not going
to be doing so well. So what was the real
cost of this decision remains to be seen.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
But that's the real talk that's coming from employees that
feel either taken advantage of or you know, look, we've
all worked in these industries, whether it's you know, finance
or you know, certainly the media industry, advertising technology, there
is a feeling where you are being taken for granted.
And sure, we all think that we're probably incredible, and
(17:23):
we're all very talented, and certainly some people might have
delusions of grandeur, think they're better than they actually are.
You know, I'll throw myself included into that. Everyone has
a healthy ego. But the truth of the matter is
ultimately you're running a business and to play a little
bit of Devil's advocate. Once the business changes, how are
you doing things to ensure that If you're a public company,
(17:44):
how are you delivering for shareholders? It's very black and white.
I'm not saying that it's right, but I could understand
the logic coming from that vector. And so you really
need to super serve your employees to make sure that
you are taking care of them, that you know you
are compensating to them, that you're incentivizing them. But when
you trip up, when you actually make a mistake. Those
are the moments where actually you lose your brand equity,
(18:07):
you lose the credibility. I think that's the breaking of
the brand promise that you're talking about. And I think
a lot of employees feel that way because they feel
like they're just a line item and they're only may
be one bad quarter away from getting fired.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
And that's the point, right The point is you and
I r C suite executives. We have to be part
of decisions that are sometimes not popular, that are sometimes
really tough. But if you can't find a way to
communicate it with trust, you'll never earn it, and if
you can't be somewhat consistent, you'll never maintain it. Let's
(18:41):
take a little break and when we come back, let's
lighten this up a little, have a little fun with it,
although it's still through the lens of brands. Be right back.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
And we're back, all right. So that was certainly heavy.
It was you know, real talk, but not always fun.
And I feel like we're really getting to something that
I think a lot of listeners will find very interesting
and we'll probably agreeing with a lot of the real
conversation around what's happening at companies, decisions, broken promises. But Marissa,
(19:14):
how would you kind of think about this? What if
your brand was really all about remote work and you
insist all of a sudden that everyone needs to come
back to the office.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Who could you be talking about?
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Maybe a company like Zoom. Perhaps I don't know like
that decision. I mean, obviously I love Zoom, I use
it all the time. But I was shocked by that
decision because you are a tech company and your product
is all about remote work. How can you be there
requiring people to come back.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
What's that about talk about grabbing head I mean they
had to know they were going to grab some headlines.
Do you think when Zoom, the company that essentially became
the poster child for remote work in the sense of
enabling us to video conference, now refutes the idea that
their own product is the best way to get work
(20:05):
done because they're telling everyone to come to the office.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
And it's funny.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
You want to know another example? How about Meta aka
formerly known as Facebook. And I was reading on my LinkedIn.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
That's a loaded one, right, because well.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Okay, I have to read you this great quote. This
guy Oggi Ray who I follow, Who's Gartner used to
be at Forrester, I think he posted about this and
he wrote, Metta is threatening to dismiss employees who don't
show up in the office three days a week. If
only the company could develop I don't know, some sort
of virtual working space. They could call it the metaverse
(20:41):
or something like that. I mean, I just thought that
was really funny.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
That's where the stark is off the charts. But obviously
these are easy either punchlines or punching bags. You know,
you take your pick, But when you think about what
is really at the heart of these decisions. I mean,
for me, I think we're at a moment where people
are really trying to struggle how do I find the
best way to engage my team, my employees, and if
(21:06):
you're an executive, how you're running the company. And I
think that people are realizing the value of having things
in person. And I know, you know, for three Pus,
you know we are one hundred percent virtual, but we
crave the ability to be in person to kind of
bounce ideas. I mean, we are a creative company, right
We're making content, We're making TV and film. How do
we find ways to id eight? And you just can't
(21:29):
beat in person. And I'm not saying that it has
to be five days a week, you know, seven days
kind of working all the time. But I feel like
there needs to be this happy meaning that everyone is
struggling with. And so even a company like Zoom making
a technology product, they probably are missing from a product
and an engineering perspective, the benefits of collaborating in person.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I get it, and I think you're right. I do
think it's situational, though, and there's going to be now
a spectrum. But I'll tell you the big conclusion for
me is if there is forever now or at least
for the foreseeable future, some spectrums, some variations on hybrid meaning,
and any given time, you might have some people who
(22:08):
are together, and you might have some people who are virtual.
You might have situations where you're seeing people in person
every day, and then some people in your team you've
never met. And I know, you know, when I was
at Low's and all this was first happening, and I
think about it now in the role that I have
where it's a more distributed team because people in parks
(22:29):
all across the country, that there is this need to
just And in both cases, I was a new leader,
I should note that having to figure out how to
compensate in some ways for those discrepancies, how to be
thoughtful about it. And I'm not saying I have it
all figured out, but I know it makes me as
a leader that much more purposeful about relationships and about
(22:57):
making your own authenticity and concern for people and your
personality kind of burst through the screen, because you're going
to have to find a way to build those relationships,
both in the real and the virtual worlds, and those
relationships should feel in many ways equally good regardless of
(23:18):
that situation.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
But you are able to do that. I think that's
one of your superpowers. You have certainly empathy, and you
know people are just attracted. They want to work with you,
they want to be on your teams. I think that
it's really hard to be a manager. If you are
mid level manager, you're a director level, you're a VP level,
you have a big team, a distributed team, And what
if you don't have that personality, What if you're an
(23:39):
introvert right, what if you aren't able to come through
the screen. It's really hard to lead in a virtual environment.
You know, you could only slack so much. You can
only text so much, email so much, and I feel
like there is a way that you miss the chance
to kind of learn things in those quiet moments right
where you can just hang out in someone's office or
you're talking with somebody, And I feel that there is
(24:02):
just a level of mentorship that really, you know, needs
to be reinvented. I mean, I've been mentoring for over
twenty five years.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yes you have.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
It's the kind of thing where I take it so
personally because I want folks to be able to be inspired.
How do you find your purpose? How do you find
your achy?
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Guy?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Like, I talk about this all the time, but a
lot of that stuff doesn't necessarily have to happen through
a virtual environment. I feel like there are ways that
you could do things in person, and then absolutely you
could find ways to engage and just really get folks
to kind of do the work virtually, and it could
be in an asynchronous way, but there has to be
(24:40):
a way that you can meet in the middle. And
I think that the path forward is going to be
an and the power of and is not going to
be one way.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Hey, we're acting like everyone was always in the same
building with each other. Have you ever led or worked
on a global team.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Yeah, that's I mean, that's really true.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
It's actually me and I worked at companies or read
people in different time zones literally around the world. Now
at least we can see their faces versus the remote
nature of being on a conference call where everyone's disembodied
and you don't really know what people are doing. I mean, yes,
it's tedious.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
So so then why do you think there's this put for
that then, Because to your point, I mean, you know,
when I was at Publics, I mean, Publicas is a
ginormous company, we had people all around the world. We
would certainly meet. When I work for Laura Desmond kind
of her global leadership team, you know, we would meet
in Stockholm, we would go to Buennes Aidas like we
would have like an annual meeting to bring all the
leaders from around stark on media vests to meet in person.
(25:31):
But you know, we all operated virtually.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Look, I think it's about continuing to be thoughtful and
reinvent and understand that there isn't going to be a
one size of itself solution anymore, and instead of railing
against what it's become, finding ways to embrace what it
can be.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
But I think the headline is this absolutely is variable
in the equation of a company's brand, and I feel
like it's really important to kind of flip it. How
is this going to impact you and your brand? If
you're listening and you know you're thinking about, Okay, where
do I really shine? How do I make an impact
that work? How am I going to cut through the clutter?
I would say, be in the office, right Be in
(26:13):
the office, because that's how you will either be visible certainly,
you know, do everything that you're doing virtually and remotely,
but really showing up and kind of going that extra mile.
I think people will notice that.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Well, I'm going to half agree with you and have
disagree with you to wrap this up. So what do
I agree with? This is now about thinking about your
brand and how your brand thrives in this new world.
What I disagree with is the only answer to that
is to be in the office, because you might not
have that situation. What if your headquarters is in London
and you're based in Dallas. I don't know. So I
(26:45):
think the right salvo is to say, part of the
challenge for companies is to get this right, and I
propose to do it a lousenticity. Part of the challenge
for you as a worker is to figure out how
you can be successful in making your presence fell well introvert, extrovert,
in person, remote, That's the new challenge, isn't it to
make your presence felt in whatever conditions which you are
(27:07):
now working for sure.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Whether you're in a remote location like London, like there's
still an office right unless it's completely virtual and there's
no office space in wherever that remote location is. I
do feel that this is going to be a topic
that comes up increasingly as part of certainly gen z
up and coming talent into every single industry, and it's
really going to define how brands and companies react to it,
(27:29):
the way they respond to remote work, the what they're
going to offer. And I really do view this as
a new form of compensation. If you could actually negotiate
a really great base salary, get your bonus. Ideally you
have equity, and if you don't have equity, that needs
to be a part of everyone's conversation. It's always a gas.
It's shocking when companies don't compensate with equity, whether it's
(27:50):
a public or a private company. And then I feel
like location. That's going to be like the fourth pillar
of your compackage. And hey, do I get to work remotely?
Do I get to have the ability to come in
two three times a week having that flexibility? That is
going to be the new form of conversation.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Well, on that note, we're talking about what it means
for you and your brand. So let's pivot to what's
on your minds up next.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
And we're back for certainly one of our favorite segments, Marissa,
what's on your mind? We love hearing from our listeners.
Now it's the time for understanding. What are the kind
of key questions that you guys are sending us. We
want to hear from you, So please let us know
what you're wondering, what you want us to answer. Send
us an email to ideas at brandshnew dot com. And
(28:37):
we're really excited about our question for this episode. Marissa,
read it out.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Okay, this is from Michelle. How about the topic of
AI as a partner in the work we do as marketers.
In other words, AI is a teammate and a valued partner.
Love to hear what folks think, Steven.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
I don't know, I mean, does does AI get a
labor day. Do you think AI cares about remote work?
Speaker 1 (29:04):
When I sometimes write questions into like chat GPT, I
feel like I'm hurting its feelings when I keep coming
back at it for more. So maybe I need to remember, No,
it doesn't care.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
It definitely doesn't care. It doesn't sleep. Look, I'd be
very curious to get your take and how kind of
big companies are leveraging it. Look, the reality is AI
has been with us for a very long time. We
just don't know it. I mean, whether you think of
things like Alexa and Siri and all the different types
of voice apps, that's all driven by machine learning. So
(29:37):
AI surrounds us and I think the magic of it
is really when it's invisible. So really understand the power
of machine learning across all these different things. I mean literally,
when you type in Google Search and it's already prompting
the question as you just type in the first couple
of words, all that is AI. I think, specifically with
respect to this question from Michelle, I think the idea
(29:58):
of AI tools that are now being almost like verticalized,
and certainly chet Gipt was the first real consumer application
bring this to masses. I mean, it just past huge milestones.
Now they have their enterprise offering. So you're starting to
see AI tools in every single category from creative and
design to cooking to you name it. And I feel like,
(30:21):
of course it's inevitable. It's going to be woven into
the fabric. I think a key part. And you know,
everyone knows about the Hollywood strike that continues to go
where the writers went on strike first and then the actors,
and it's still going. It's now September, and you know,
my prediction is maybe it will last till December, and
if it goes beyond that into the new year, I mean,
it's really going to have a toll. But I feel
(30:43):
that people are going to figure out how best to
leverage AI. You cannot put this genie back in the box.
This is absolutely Is it a box, is it a bottle?
I don't know, but the genie's out there and so
understanding the power of leveraging AI tools. It is not
necessarily going to take your job outright. It will take jobs,
for sure, but for you specifically to learn how to
(31:03):
leverage these tools in your day to day, you should
be testing and learning life and beta. Use a tool,
use you know, notion notion has has an AI component
to it now to help you write. Literally, it's going
to be incorporating to everything, and I just feel like it's
really going to be a question of how best are
you leveraging these tools, because it will be a part
of every single job. Marisa, I don't have a lot to.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Add because I think you said it really well. But
I'll just go back to the spirit of the question,
which is teammate and partner. I think that is the
best way for us to start thinking about it. It's
been a topic of incredible provocation and clickbait and fear.
A lot of these things are but you're right, Steven,
(31:45):
it's been here for a long time. We just haven't
talked about it or haven't understood it. Hit it real
tipping point with the introduction of chat GPT not even
a year ago, and yet we feel like the whole
world has changed, and perhaps it has. I think the
teammate is the right way to look at It's not
going to replace some of the things that are I
believe fundamental to our humanity and our talent as leaders
(32:09):
as workers, which is judgment, intuition, connecting dots, but it
can be a tool that helps us do our jobs
better if we use it the right way. So Michelle,
you're on the right track in my opinion. All right,
I think that's all we have time for. But thank
you for joining us, and if you liked it, don't
forget to follow us at the Brand New Podcast wherever
you listen to your podcast so you never miss an episode, and.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
We want to hear from you, so please again, let
us know what you're wondering about. What are your questions,
what do you want to know, including things like AI
and brand and you know, whatever is happening with Mersus's daughter,
or you know whatever's going on in New York. But
please do us a favor, leave a rating, review something
on Apple Podcasts wherever you listen to pods you know,
certainly feed that algorithm. Spread the word and join us
(32:54):
next time for What's brand New
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