November 26, 2024 • 40 mins
Back in 2009, famed author Michael Lewis wrote a profile of basketball player Shane Battier in which he dubbed him “the no stats all star.” What would make someone a no stats all star? An individual whose game play puts the team above himself (how rare is that)? It just took some deeper analytics to realize that how the TEAM performed (Sven even how the competition underperformed) came down to this one unassumingly shrewd variable. In this conversation with Marisa and Steven, Shane shares how those instincts from the court have translated into really meaningful lessons in leadership for all of us. Wondering if the only route to big leadership is big ego? This episode is for you.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hi, and thanks for joining us on Brand New from
the iHeart Podcast Network and Brand New Labs. I'm Marisa
Thalberg and.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I'm Stephen wolf Beida and I am in Miami. Marisa,
Welcome to Miami.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Well it's funny, as I was there earlier in this week.
We could have waived at Miami International Airport, but oh well,
ships passing my friend living on planes.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
You've been on the road. I've been on the road.
Where have you been?
Speaker 1 (00:32):
This week was Miami for board meeting and then quick
trip up to New York to have a couple of meetings,
and then flew home last night. And I hated that
I went to New York and didn't get to see
my daughter Hannah, but it was so quick. She was
my busy working daughter. I didn't get to see her either.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
That's got to be so hard. How could you go
to New York and not see her.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
No, well, I just had seen her the week before
while I was in New York then, so it wasn't
so tragic.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
You're in New York a lot.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I know it's home for me, though, so it's okay.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I know it feels good.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
It does feel good.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
So I've been on the road to been a whirlwind week.
I was actually in lis Boa. I was in one
of my favorite cities. I was in Lisbon, Portugal for
the annual Websummit conference, which is just incredible.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
That's a big deal. Can we just stop and make
sure everyone understands that's like the mother of digital conferences?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, I mean, this is truly and.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
You presented at it, my friend, I did.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I did. We're just on this mission. We need everyone
to truly get AI ready. It's not a drill, it's
not hype, but it's kind of where the tech world
meets web Summit is incredible. I think they had over
seventy thousand people from all all over the world. I
mean literally obviously people from the US, you know, from Brazil,
from all over Europe, you know, Ukraine, I mean Japan.
(01:56):
I mean, it was just so awesome to see this
tech community come together, all.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Chech people, not really, it's people from business and I've
never been, so.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
It's interesting for folks that don't know Websummit, definitely check
it out. But it was started to buy an Irish
guy that lived in Dublin who loved the tech community,
and he started this kind of convening in Dublin. It
outgrew Ireland and then they kind of did a pitch
and they brought it to Lisbon. Now it's around the world.
So they do web Summit in Vancouver, they do one
in Rio, and then they do one in Doa. So
(02:27):
it truly is, you know, kind of this cultural zeitgeist.
Some of our friends were there. I got to see
Frank Cooper, who's the same of a Visa and he
was on day one opening and he did an interview
with Farrell Williams, which is pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Wow, that is cool.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Then we had some of our friends from time. We
had Jessica Sibley. She was there with Nick from The
Atlantic and the CEO of The Independent, talking about how
media is being transformed by AI. So you know, there's
a lot of things around kind of creator economy, obviously technology,
but there were so many brands there and just to
see how everyone is really trying to just you know,
(03:03):
kind of learn. And so I led a session with
a bunch of executives again just really trying to get
the may I ready, now I'm.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
In Miami and now you're in Miami and doing it.
I mean I by the way, I personally can't wait
to see your presentation. But you are really taking the
bull by the horns in terms of getting out in
front and teaching companies and leaders and boards and others
how to think about this. And I'll tell you it's
(03:29):
important because for those of us who are in or
and Mike is back in a big operating role, you
need your partners and other thought leaders who were out
there and spending the time trying to assess it. I
remember in my early days of digital, even though I
was in a corporate role, that was kind of my
job because I wasn't in a functionally operating role on
a specific business. I was in this corporate role.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, you were the evangelists. You were the translator.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I was the evangelist, and I got to be out
there and figure it out and then figure out how
to translate it. And so when you're the one day
to day running a business, you really do need people
like you to help you make sense of it.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I've been getting a lot of great feedback. We're going
to be launching something that's not think going to be
a pretty cool thing for Alpha, which is going to
be our Alpha outlook, and so this is kind of
like our annual predictions and kind of where the puck
is going. And so I've been getting so much feedback,
I think I might do this as a public webinar,
so stay tuned. I got to work out on the logistics,
(04:26):
but I might do something in December where you know,
just open and just kind of really help folks again.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Just get ready super interesting and you know, meantime, we
did spend our last episode trying to do our campaign
post mortem, meaning the ultimate campaign, the election campaign. Lots
of interesting feedback from people, and it's kind of nice
because we're going to pivot from talking about that to
(04:54):
getting back into a topic that I feel is a
perennial favorite, but now, you know, you put it in
an even new new cultural context, which is leadership and
lessons in leadership, which is bigger than just marketing or
brands or it is, well.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Not more than ever. We need real leadership.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
It is about the essence of business and culture and
all that. And you know, here's a fun thing. So
we're gonna we're gonna invite a new friend to the
pod who is an NBA legend.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Yeah, who's our friends.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
We'll give the full intro in a bit but Shane
Baddier is joining us. He was a basketball legend and
I met him through someone I look up to so much,
and I'm honored to know Adam Grant, who I mean
is just well, you know, that's a drop. I like
it talking about going back to early days of digital
(05:44):
and he was is a Wharton professor, but now of
course best selling author. I mean, massive social following. I
always always so you know him before he blew up,
he was big, but now he's enormously big, and I
truly truly do admire and he's just one of those
you know how you have those go to people for wisdom,
(06:04):
He's one of my like every single little post he makes,
oh so smart. And he reached out to me and
introduced me to Shane, who had just moved to Charlotte,
and said, that's awesome. You guys should get together. So
it was a double gift because I got to have
a quick reconnect with Adam and now gotten to know Shane.
So I think you're going to really like this conversation.
(06:26):
I think everyone's going to really like this conversation.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
So, I mean, obviously just know of him as a
fan as a sports fan, but I've just been very impressed,
you know, kind of just doing the prep work, just
what he's done in business and in leadership. And you know,
I think one of the telling signs is like, how
do we really find ways to inspire when maybe people
are feeling not inspired?
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Right?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
How do you actually lead when people are feeling fatigued?
And so I just really think that the leadership narrative
is more critical than ever.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
I agree, Well, when we come back, we're going to
have a great conversation about all that with Shane. Okay,
we're back, and we are joined now by Shane Battier,
two time NBA champion, a leader on and off the court,
who was famously dubbed the no stats all Star by
(07:18):
writer Michael Lewis in a major New York Times feature
story on him. So what did Lewis mean by that? Well,
he recognized and Shane, you're going to be talking to
us about it. That Shane's gift was doing all the
little things that don't necessarily show up in a box score,
like setting the perfect screen, locking down an opponent, building
team chemistry. But these contributions proved to be crucial to
(07:41):
his team's success and actually changed how basketball's played and understood.
Known for his intellectual approach to the game, Shane was
one of the first athletes to leverage analytics and data
favorite topic of ours in a way that also changed
the game, and Shane went on to translate those talents
and insights into becoming a powerful well speaker on leadership,
(08:01):
emphasizing the power of humility, teamwork, and preparation. He's also
an investor, a philanthropist, and now even a podcast host
himself with The Glue Guys that you Do with co
hosts Alex Smith and Ravii Gupta, cutting across the worlds
of sports and business. So welcome Shane. We're so happy
to have you.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Thank you, Thank you for the wonderful introduction. It's a
way cooler introduction than I am in real life.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
So you modest to bring Marisa wherever you go. She'll
do all your.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
You guys are like the best market I think I know.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
So listen where I want to start with. I mean
Michael Lewis, who people probably know if you don't know
his name as a household name. He is one from
writing books that actually tie to culture and economics and
sports like Moneyball, like The blind Side and He wrote
this profile about you back in two thousand and nine,
and he brands you basically speaking of branding the nose
(09:00):
stats all Star and one of my favorite descriptions of
you in it gives a little bit of an explanation
to what I think he meant by that title. So here's,
if I may, I'm going to read this Lewis wrote
about you. Battier's game is a weird combination always nice
to be called weird, right of obvious weaknesses and nearly
invisible strengths. When he's on the court, his teammates get better,
(09:23):
often a lot better, and his opponents get worse, often
a lot worse. He may not grab a huge number
of rebounds, but he has an uncannyability to improve his
teammates rebounding everything that leads to winning that you can
get to through intellect instead of innate ability. I mean,
first of all, wow and congratulations, and I'm sure all
(09:45):
that did. And you know your life was already kind
of profoundly big playing in the NBA, being like such
a high school All Star. But did you know from
the beginning that this is what you were doing? Did
you know that that's whether you knew it in your head,
is no stats, all star or not, because we're going
to talk about what that means for leadership. But did
you know that was your superhero talent?
Speaker 3 (10:06):
No? No, I was a humble kid from suburb of Detroit,
and from the earliest ymc A basketball that I played,
I had one goal just to win, just to win,
and I understood that like when I won and my
team did well, like everyone was happy and everyone wanted
me on their team. Okay, so it wasn't about like
(10:27):
my performance, wasn't about my stats, and yes I was
tall and pretty athletic, and it was about like, hey,
how do we do that? And so I took that
mentality with me literally from kindergarten all the way to
my last day in the NBA. It's like, what do
we need to do? And so I was never afraid
to do the dirty work, the unglamorous things, because I
knew it just helped us win. No one ever taught
(10:48):
me this the less than I figured out when I
was in first second grade. And so when Lewis said, hey,
I want to tell your story, I'm like, what story? Like,
I'm on athletic. You know, I averaged about ten points
a game. Which is like very very average. Most NBA
fans be like, yeah, Betty, he's not that quick, he's
not that strong, he's not that exciting. But Lewis said, look,
(11:08):
every team you've ever played on has one and one
at a huge level, whether it's three state championships in Michigan,
a country day, or going to Duke University winning a
national championship. I graduated the all time winning his college
basketball player in history. It was a compelling store for
Lewis to tell why this guy who was like who
failed every metric of the Eyeball test, slow on athletic,
(11:30):
very modest stats always won. And it took the analytics
revolution for me to understand that the things that I
did had tremendous value and like way more value than
I thought, and so like I was a master of
like the plays that never showed up on ESPN on
Sports Center, like running back on defense, okay, diving for
(11:52):
a loose ball just to get like one stinking possession
for my team, or setting a good screen so my
teammate could get open for an open shop, right, Like,
there are no stat columns on the box score that
show that value. But in the analytics age, and the
data age of basketball, we understand better like no, those
are actually very very important plays and has nothing to
(12:15):
do with talent but everything to do about awareness and
resilience and just overall effort. So Lewis told that story,
you know, it was very validating for me. It really
made my career in terms of who I am and
what I'm about, and I love telling the story to people.
My superpower was just basically boosting team performance through presence,
(12:38):
just by who I was, not what I said or
what I tried to affect, just by the things that
I did that were silent in the shadows, helped my
team win and at a really really large level. And
I think there's so many people out there who feel
just relegated in the workplace and in their families and
their communities, and my message in them is there's so
(12:59):
much value and doing those things and helping your team win,
helping other people be their best. And even though if
you don't get recognized immediately, if you do that enough
and the people around you win enough, they're going to
realize you're the common bond and you're the reason why
they're able to elevate their performance. And so it's a
(13:19):
message that that made sense to me, and I think
it makes sense to a lot of folks.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Sane, You're just speaking to my heart as a sports fan.
You know, I grew up loving more football what Americans
called soccer, but I feel like soccer and basketball are
truly the most athletic, the most difficult sports, and everything
that you just said, you know, those are actually metrics
that you do track in soccer. Those are the things
(13:45):
that people care about. And you know, I'm a huge
arsenal fan of Marson knows ad nauseum. You know, one
of my favorite players is bukay Osaka. And to see
a winger running back to be a defender at its
non stop. Those are the things that people, truly, to
your point, they might not see in basketball, but now
they can through data. But you know, I want to
(14:07):
take the point that you made, which is so important,
you know, in a little bit of a different direction.
There is this moment that we're in where you see
big leaders and big egos go hand in hand and
everything you just said, you know, the humility of it,
and just the fact that you're just trying to work
for your team. Are you an exception? Do you feel
that leadership today needs to have the big ego. And
obviously we just went through a major election and so
(14:29):
CEOs are big egos. Like, do you feel that your
form of leadership is able to really cut through the noise?
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Yes? I do. I think the scale is tipped the
other way. Especially for young people who grow up in
the Instagram generation, they feel they have to show the
world look at me, I'm special, I'm talented, and so
with the curated Instagram post and look at me, look
at me, look at me, and look at me. And
(14:58):
my message to not only young people but everybody's like, no, no, Like,
if you're part of a winning team, that's how you
create value for yourself. That is how you create legacy
for yourself. It's not the other way around. You don't
create legacy by being so great that everyone's like, oh
my gosh, this person is so great, like let's follow them,
let's listen to that.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
No.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
No, if you're part of a brand, if you're part
of a team that wins, that oozes excellence, like the
shine that you get from being part of that is
what matters.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Play for the badge, as they say, yeah yeah, play
for the front of the shirt and they'll remember the
name of the back of the shirt exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
But I think it's interesting. I mean, look, Michael Lewis
then and you argue the world has changed even more
in this extreme called you the most abnormally unselfish basketball
player you've ever seen. And I think as you equate
that to leadership, what.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Are all these words more? It's a weird abnormal.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
I mean, I know I am weird and normal, I know.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
But like they're compliments.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Say he's a unicorn, right, I mean, well, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
I actually think that's what he was calling you. He
was calling you a unicorn. But I think there's something
I mean, look, I think that's why he's such a
gifted writer too, is bringing out these interesting stories, several
of which have come through the world of sports. But
you know what he was talking about is the sort
of setup to that thought. To build on what Stephen
was saying, is this, Usually there is this tension between
(16:17):
the group and the individual. In sports and in business,
the temptation is you make it about yourself. And I'll
tell you there's a whole other dimension of that. As
a woman, I think women get cast even like with
a much more harmful brush of Oh, it's about you.
But put that one aside.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
That's another pod, another pod, but.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
It all ties into this idea of is it like,
I mean, glad your visceral reaction was yes, it's totally possible.
But how do you really convince, now that you speak
so much on leadership that playing for the team that
way is actually the best way or one of the
best ways to be a great leader.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Had one goal, and I played for like the best,
the best coaches Ay named Mike Sesski, the all time
winning as coach in college basketball QB. Brown, Like I
played for Hall of Fame coaches. I had an embarrassment
of amazing coaches, and I had one goal. My goal
was to make those coaches stay up at night if
they subbed me out for one minute. I wanted to
be so valuable to what the team did that they
(17:20):
couldn't live without me on the floor for just a woman.
If I played thirty nine minutes, I wanted them to say, man,
like that one minute Battier was out. It was scary.
So how do you do that? You have to, like
make your coaches, make your managers, make your leaders just
totally rely on you with your talent, with your discipline,
with your preparation, with your relentlessness, with your resilience, with
(17:41):
your attitude, with your enthusiasm. Right, those are all things
that like you control. It doesn't matter what school you
went to or you know what your zip code was
growing up. If you control all the things that you
really can control to the best of your ability. Guess
what your manager, your coach is going to say, Man,
I can rely on him or her. I can rely
(18:02):
on them, and I need them in the game whatever
that game is a huge account, a huge presentation. I
need this person on this And so that is how
you create value for yourself. Make yourself an indispensable to
any team that you're on. And it's apparent if you're
doing the work and you're bringing people together and you're
(18:22):
that positive energizer. So if people know, all right, you're
not going to slip through the cracks, we need you
on this case. And that happens time and time and
time again. Guess what, I don't care what your stats are,
what your role is, what your title is, what your
salary is, You're going to be in the game. And again,
this is how you create legacy, is how you create
value for yourself. As an individual.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
So take that concept of how you're creating value, because
ultimately all these things are businesses, right, whether it's the
business of a brand or the business of sports. You know,
the data is so critical to it. And I'm just
so curious, you you know, either as an athlete or
you know, knowing a lot of friends are still you know,
obviously in the game, how has data transformed this? Because
(19:05):
are they now living by the data set that is
being used to track them? Because everything has gone moneyball, right,
I'm just curious, like, how do you balance that art
in science, right? Because you still want to have some
of the magic, but you got a lot of math
in there too.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Yeah, Stevens, It's funny. I was introduced analytics almost twenty
years now, two thousand and six when I got traded
to the Houston Rockets and they were the first team to
use data analytics as as an organizational philosophy. I understood
because I took statistics in college, the power of sample size,
standard deviation, what an outlier is. And so you're making
me blessed.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
This is my love language. I love talking about data.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Oh stop.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Literally the way that I was taught basketball analytics from
Darryl Morey and Sam Hankey, the two ogs of basketball analytics.
They said, look, you gotta think about basketball like playing blackjack. Okay,
So you see time at the blackjack table, all right,
and you get dealt two aces. What do you do? Okay?
You split them? Every single time. You split them fifty
percent of the time. The fifth time you get two
(20:08):
aces delt to you, you say, you know what, yolo, I'm
gonna keep it together. No, you split them one hundred
percent of the time. Why because the book says to
do that? And why does the book say that to
do that? Because it gives you the best chance, over
the course of a shoe, a session, whatever, of winning. Okay.
It's a positive ev move, okay, And so whether you
(20:30):
win or not is immaterial. You split the aces and
the dealer hits the twenty one, you're like, okay, whatever,
Like still that was the right play, Okay, and you
do it again next time. And so learning to separate
the results from the environment and the process is what analytics.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Is just a build on that. But you're living life.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
In probabilities in probabilities.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Right, and so many folks don't want to do that.
It's the heart and mind right, like your gut says,
I want to do this, but if you've been trained properly,
you're going to actually listen to the probabilities because the
data doesn't alie correct.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
In the corporate world, it's a bad play. It's like
hitting on sixteen if you don't have good customer service, right,
you may keep your turn numbers down, but like, if
you don't have good customer service, you're probably not going
to win. And that's like hitting on sixteen or seventeen, right.
So like understanding where the easy wins are in data
(21:26):
and just doing those things again and again and again
and again and again, and avoiding the things that beat
you again and again and again and again. Like that
keeps you in the game. It's not about like optimizing
and maximizing the potential. It's like, let's use data to
just avoid the really really bad things that can ruin
our group, ruin our business, ruin our trajectory, and that
(21:46):
like beats half your competition. As stupid as that sounds, well.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Can I flip that on you though, Because what's interesting is,
in a sense business has had, especially when you think
about marketing and brands, a bit of a pendulum problem.
There wasn't enough day and that's exactly what you're saying
about basketball, and so it was revolutionary to start introducing
data and suddenly optimizing results. We are in a funny
place in the world of i'll say marketing, but I
(22:11):
mean it media more globally, where the pendulum has now
swung to the point where there can be a real tension.
We're trying to over rely on the data and the
science has lost some of the art, and we talk
a lot about the fact that it is, of course
a blend. So how did that factor in either then
or now? As you now are an executive yourself and
(22:33):
have been for many years, do you see the creativity
still in the game and the intuition along with the science.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
That's a great question. The game has become much more homogenized.
You know, in basketball, for instance, we know that the
team basically that makes more three pointers wins the game.
All right, that explains like eighty five percent of who
wins a game on any given night who makes more
three point shots, right, which basketball peers don't want to hear.
You know, some of the art is taken out of it.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
And you know, equate this to business obviously keep going.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
Yeah, exactly, But like you say that, in baseball, like
baseball has been solved, and so in baseball it's very
different because it's a series of one on one matchups.
But they know if you hit a baseball at a
certain launch angle and at a certain velocity, it will
be a home run. In every baseball park from here
to Tokyo. Their whole organizations that train their entire you know,
baseball roster to hit a ball at a certain angle
(23:26):
at a certain speed because that gives them the best
chance to win. Right. So baseball for all in kinds
of purposes, has been solved. Basketball much more nuanced, Football,
other sports, soccer much more nuanced, not not as simple.
What I tell people, I started and ran the Miami
heats of the NBA's analytic department for five years, and
we had fantastic data scientists, fantastic analysts. We were producing
(23:50):
some amazing research, and my job as the head of
research was to use that data to combat human bias
and biases. I told people, this is not the answer,
Like we're giving you information to make decisions, but what
we're really trying to do is trying to keep guardrails
on the biases that ruin us all. And so it's
(24:13):
an interesting way to think about it. So if you're
running data or you're running marketing, yes you have to
be able to run some of these regressions and understand
the numbers, but you better be well versed in behavioral
psychology for the decision makers that fall victim to those
despite and because of the numbers. And that is where
(24:33):
the sweet spot where someone can really really gain market
share and just more success by balancing the data with
the behavioral science and the biases that we fall victim to.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
That's really nicely said.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
I love the fact that you're talking about behavioral science.
You know, I'm so curious. There's something very special when
you do sports. Men, and obviously women's sports is going
through a huge you know, rightly justified boom a little
bit too late in a lot of our opinions. But
you know, my son is nine years old. He's playing
club soccer in LA.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Yeah, it's awesome.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
I just see the grit, the perseverance that it teaches,
the discipline, you know, all these kind of soft things
quote unquote that you're learning by being a part of
the team. You know, I'm curious, what do you see
either in you know, kind of young professionals today that
are either not connecting, that are not finding ways to either.
(25:28):
You know, they didn't have the opportunity to be on
the sports team, they didn't have the opportunity to be
coached by coach k you know, like, I feel like
we're in this moment where the ability to connect and
really understand the value of human behavior, Like what are
you seeing in the folks that you're engaged with?
Speaker 3 (25:43):
I do a lot of corporate speaking that it's the
number one question I get. How do I connect with
with gen Z? How do I connect with millennials? And
they're so different than Gen xers or the generation and
in my estimation, they're not young people. All right. This
is a great parenting or managing advice. Young people till
about the age of thirty, they crave two things. They
(26:05):
crave status and respect, and they are always constantly scanning
the landscape to see do I have status? Do I
have respect? And this is actually like something that has
come with us from one hunter gatherer times because if
you do not have status, if you can help the
hunter gatherer tribe survive and gather food or defend us
against mastodons or or the next tribe over. You know,
(26:28):
you were kicked out and that meant certain death. So
that's stay with us. And so we are terrified to
be kicked out of whatever tribe that we're in and
be different. And so the actions of our young people
today are solely based on acceptance, and they're always scanning
for status and respect, and so as managers, as coaches, right,
(26:50):
honoring that that biological desire, right while still having high
expectations and being support of that's the game. That's the game.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
But isn't there the disconnect then? Because you obviously been trained,
You've been exposed to incredible leaders, and now you are
the leader training other leaders. But it's not kind of
like common sense is not common leadership is not pervasive, correct,
And so there's so many bad managers. They don't know
how to manage people, they don't know how to inspire people,
(27:25):
and you know, frankly, they probably don't really give a
shit about these people because they're all expendable, right, or
you know, we're going to do a layoff, or now
I see AI and automation coming more and more. So
you know, how do you talk to not just the
young professionals, and you know so many of our listeners
they care about this, But I think it's also the managers, right,
what advice do you give to the managers?
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Yeah, look again, I play for the greatest coach in
basketball and sports history, Coach k and he did three
things better than anybody. The level of energy he's spent
on individual consideration. Okay, thinking about each person on his team,
assistant coaches, his executive assistants, everybody associated with the program.
(28:05):
He thought about what does this person need for me
to be their best? And that is exhausting. Most people
don't want to, you know, sacrifice the time and the
effort to think about their people. Every single coach Kate
didn't have hobbies, he didn't watch TV. Like all he
thought about were his people and it showed and he
(28:26):
was able to deliver that every single day to his
team everybody associated with and like, first of all, that's
what separates an amazing leader. Your job as a leader
to bang the culture drum every single day every day,
like ad Nausom, you have to remind your people why
they're there every single day because we get distracted and
(28:49):
our attention is being pulled left and right. We have
to say no, we're here to win, and this is
how we win. We're here to win. This is how
we win. We're here to win. This is how we win.
Exhausting exact people don't want to put the effort in
to do that.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
I'm noticing a pattern here versa. It's the repetition and effort.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
That's what I'm hearing.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
And communication is the last part of that. And communication
is exhausting. The only way to do is actually to
do it and to connect and to talk and get
a pulse and take feedback and give feedback and all
those three things. Energy is the common thread, and great
leaders expand the energy because they know the cause is worthwhile.
(29:33):
Subpar leaders, below average leaders, they take shortcuts and it
shows in my experience. Those are the three things so
banging the culture drama. Individual consideration and communication are non negotiables.
If you want to be a leader, and if you
want to be a great leader, you have to do
it every day.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
That is so I feel like every single corporate CEO
needs to hear this message.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Here we are.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
You guys are the marketers make that happen. I'm just
the jock. I'm just the jaw. You know, it's your jaw.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
It truly is. I've been, you know, in lots of
different industries, but one of my most incredible you know,
kind of collways was this woman Pandemanium worked with me
at Univision way back when, and she would always talk
about people don't care how much you know until they
know how much you care. And I feel like that
is a nice summary of what you just said. But
(30:23):
it takes work.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
It's hard.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
That's where they say being a corporate athlete. And I'll
tell you something, I feel inspired because I think the
best leaders do care and want to care, and that
is where you check a little of your ego at
the door. But if anything, it's a reminder to double
down and put even more of the energy. And so
I love that. We're going to take a quick break
and when we come back, we're going to play a
(30:47):
little game, not quite the game of basketball, but the
game of cooler cringe. We'll be right back, and we're.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Back and we're ready to play not the game of basketball,
but the game of core cringe of Shane. All right, Shane,
so cool or cringe? I mean you go sports betting?
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Okay? Ah, cool and moderation.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
So many things are cool in moderation.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
I guess right, you can't. You can't put that genie
back in the bottle, right because it's Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
My life motto is everything in moderation, including moderation. Okay, so.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Now that's good. I like that. All right, my turn.
Since we've been talking all about team culture, here's a
fun cooler cringe ready, office happy hours featuring mindfulness breaks
instead of drinks.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Cringe.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
We started to have some fun.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
You're allowed to elaborate, by the way, but cringe.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
I respect my sober friends. I respect it. It's not
easy for my sober friends, and I have great admiration
for them. With some of the best conversations I've had
it has been through uh, you know, the bottom of mine,
my wine glass.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
And so cheers to that.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Cheers to that.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
That's the best way I can put it.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Quick, quick funny story just came from my first board
meeting in my new role. Was in the airport lounge
with my new amazing kind of work partner, and we
had a call to do and I had left I'm
traveling so much. I had left my AirPods at home.
And how we're gonna do this call. And she shared
an air pod with me, so we now literally as
well as figuratively, put our heads together to do this call.
(32:27):
But we each had a glass of champagne in my hand.
She had a glass of bourbon. I mean it was
you know what we've gone done to the board meeting
in a lounge. We'll like, you know, we need to
hide the drinks. I'm like, you think they're really going
to mine that We're having a drink on the end
of this phone call. So you know I'm with you
on the happy hour. Ye bring snow, mindfulness, brigs with that,
all right?
Speaker 2 (32:46):
All right? So I think there I know where you
might lean on this, but cool or cringe? Nil deals
for college athletes.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
I have a sixteen year old son who's a pretty
good ballplayer, so that's cool by me if you can
on the car.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
And what what'snil for the folks that I got now.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Name, image and likeness. It's a very different world than
I grew up with. My NIL was basically, if you
have commercial value, a business can now pay you to
help promote their business. My NIL was an extra meatball
at the cafeteria Duke University. So this was not available
you know, I'm happy for these young guys who can
(33:24):
commercialize their talents. My advice to these young people is, look,
the money is great, it's not life changing. You know
what is life changing the network and the people that
you meet at the schools you go to and that's
forever and that has a much larger lifetime value than
any nil money you get. So while the money's great,
eight have fun, go out, buy a nice car and
(33:46):
buy some clothes. You still have to foster the relationship
with the university and the people go to school with
because that'll last much longer.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
All right, Last one, because we have been talking sports
quite a bit throughout this past year on Brand New,
and we did an episode a while back with our
friend Kathy Carter, who's been a leader in women's sports
and most recently CEO of the LA twenty twenty eight Games.
So we talked about this one. So now we'll throw
it to you. What do you think cooler cringe E
sports in the future, Olympic Games?
Speaker 3 (34:16):
Cool? Cool? Really, I've come around on that.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
These there's a six year old son. Help of that.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
These people are you know, these folks, they're good. The anticipation,
the hand eye right, and it may not be your
father's sport, but do you have to be in tunia
to be in shape, you have to have concentration. And
so I respect the top level E game gamers out there,
and so I'm gonna say cool, I say cool.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
I love it. Well, you're cool, and we're really happy
that you chose to join us today. As Steven said,
so glad to share. You're really inspiring and different, not
abnormal in a bad way, abnormal in the best of ways,
as we said, for lessons in how to play the game,
and of course we mean that in a much broader
(35:06):
sense in basketball. So Shane, thanks so much for joining.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Oh thank you. If you want to hear more of that,
tune into Glue Guys on Spotify or Apple podcasts or
get your podcasts. These are the things we talk about,
just trying to trying to help us all just get
along and do a little bit better.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Thank you so much, sann A real pleasure.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
All right, that was awesome, Marissa. He's really impressive and
really inspiring. Great to have him on the pod. But
now it's time for what's on your mind? And Marissa,
what do we have this week?
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Well, we have a comment this week which I like
thinking in terms of what people have to say, not
just the questions they have for us. And our comment
this week came from Aaron and it was about our
last episode in which we did our election campaign post mortem,
and in commenting about our second takeaway, which was that
the media playbook has totally changed, Aaron wrote us to say,
(35:58):
I think there was a mismatch between celebrities and messaging.
People who feel economic pain don't want to hear from
people who don't feel that pain telling them they should
be worrying about something else. And I thought that was
a really interesting comment and it made me think that
we should discuss what does that actually mean for the
(36:19):
influences celebrities in general, Because here's the counterpart. Celebrities and
brand campaigns are as pervasive as ever, so I think
it would.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Be they're pervasive, but are they are they impactful? Are
they relevant?
Speaker 3 (36:30):
You know?
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Is the juice worth of squeeze?
Speaker 1 (36:31):
As I like to say, well, or to put it
back in basketball terms, do sports rooms does that play
still work? Or when it might not be a successful play?
So I think this is worth debating. Off of Aaron's comment,
you oh, I'm you know, you're not the only one
who can throw a little sports talk into the conversation.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
I know I.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Sports that was a small sports flex, but I just
want to repeat that because I think it's interesting people
who feel economic pain don't want to hear from people
who don't feel that pain telling them that they should
be worrying about something else. That was really well said.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
What do you think ethink?
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Gvern is spot on? I mean, look at the whole
rise of the creator economy, right, Look no further than that.
People are looking not to authority figures. They want authentic figures.
And so when you think of the person that's on
TikTok on reels and they're saying, hey, here's what I'm
going through, here's the hack, here's how you save money,
whatever it is, and you know what, they're not all
(37:28):
dolled up. They're not super glamorous. It's like they may
have just rolled out of bed. There's no makeup, and
they're just talking to the screen, you know. And I
feel like so many people, like you know, even in business,
are doing that. I mean, I don't know if folks
follow Jeff Berman from Wait What, and he is doing
all these great, you know kind of videos on LinkedIn
(37:49):
and it's just him like walking like after he did
a run, like he's in the baseball cap and he's
just saying, hey, here are my thoughts about you know, democracy,
or about business or about this or that. So I
feel like the ability need to connect and just really
meet people where they are. I do feel like the
celebrity thing is probably a play that's a little bit
played out.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Well, okay, I'll play a little Devil's advocate here. I mean,
first of all, on the influencer creator side, some people
do it with no makeup. But have you looked in
the world of beauty and fashion and people who want
to be playing in that world, they're not rolling out
of bed and doing other contents. So in fairness, that's fair,
but different category, that's true, right, But that's part of it.
(38:29):
I mean, I just think it's interesting to reflect on
where influence is coming from and that maybe the conclusion
is simply that it's no longer a one size fits
all solution. Celebrities are not this magic pass to borrowed
celebrity the way it used to confer fame on brands,
and that's where it was so valuable, But at the
(38:50):
same time, there was just this question that we wrestled
with last week when we were doing last episode, when
we were talking about this in terms of of channeling
the right sense of connection and the right sense of
do you understand me? But celebrities were never meant to
understand you. Celebrities were meant to be aspirational.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
But isn't there a nuance there Isn't there also different
types of celebrities, like, for example, like we just had Shane.
Athletes I think are a different type of celebrity, and
then you see athletes that came from nothing, and you know,
certainly that story could be for lots of different types
of celebrities, but I felt the athlete story is very
unique in that way that people can connect. It feels
a little bit more maybe accessible. Again, maybe it's just
(39:33):
my own bias and my own echo chamber, but I
feel like different types of celebrities will, you know, depending
on the brand or certainly depending on the initiative, But
I just feel that you need to figure out, like
why are you even using a celebrity in the first place.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
I think that's a fair challenge for most tactics, and
if anything, that's a lesson we talked about last week,
and I think Aaron put into a little extra context
on that part, which is thank you Eric, ask yourself,
because it worked before, is it the right thing for
what's going to work today? So that's it for now.
Thank you for joining us. If you like what you're
(40:09):
hearing from us, subscribe, send us a question or comment.
You can drop them in any of our social channels,
or send us a direct email at ideas at brandshnew
dot com
Speaker 2 (40:20):
And join us next time for what's brand New
Hi, and thanks for joining us on Brand New from
the iHeart Podcast Network and Brand New Labs. I'm Marisa
Thalberg and.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I'm Stephen wolf Beida and I am in Miami. Marisa,
Welcome to Miami.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Well it's funny, as I was there earlier in this week.
We could have waived at Miami International Airport, but oh well,
ships passing my friend living on planes.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
You've been on the road. I've been on the road.
Where have you been?
Speaker 1 (00:32):
This week was Miami for board meeting and then quick
trip up to New York to have a couple of meetings,
and then flew home last night. And I hated that
I went to New York and didn't get to see
my daughter Hannah, but it was so quick. She was
my busy working daughter. I didn't get to see her either.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
That's got to be so hard. How could you go
to New York and not see her.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
No, well, I just had seen her the week before
while I was in New York then, so it wasn't
so tragic.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
You're in New York a lot.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I know it's home for me, though, so it's okay.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I know it feels good.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
It does feel good.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
So I've been on the road to been a whirlwind week.
I was actually in lis Boa. I was in one
of my favorite cities. I was in Lisbon, Portugal for
the annual Websummit conference, which is just incredible.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
That's a big deal. Can we just stop and make
sure everyone understands that's like the mother of digital conferences?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, I mean, this is truly and.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
You presented at it, my friend, I did.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I did. We're just on this mission. We need everyone
to truly get AI ready. It's not a drill, it's
not hype, but it's kind of where the tech world
meets web Summit is incredible. I think they had over
seventy thousand people from all all over the world. I
mean literally obviously people from the US, you know, from Brazil,
from all over Europe, you know, Ukraine, I mean Japan.
(01:56):
I mean, it was just so awesome to see this
tech community come together, all.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Chech people, not really, it's people from business and I've
never been, so.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
It's interesting for folks that don't know Websummit, definitely check
it out. But it was started to buy an Irish
guy that lived in Dublin who loved the tech community,
and he started this kind of convening in Dublin. It
outgrew Ireland and then they kind of did a pitch
and they brought it to Lisbon. Now it's around the world.
So they do web Summit in Vancouver, they do one
in Rio, and then they do one in Doa. So
(02:27):
it truly is, you know, kind of this cultural zeitgeist.
Some of our friends were there. I got to see
Frank Cooper, who's the same of a Visa and he
was on day one opening and he did an interview
with Farrell Williams, which is pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Wow, that is cool.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Then we had some of our friends from time. We
had Jessica Sibley. She was there with Nick from The
Atlantic and the CEO of The Independent, talking about how
media is being transformed by AI. So you know, there's
a lot of things around kind of creator economy, obviously technology,
but there were so many brands there and just to
see how everyone is really trying to just you know,
(03:03):
kind of learn. And so I led a session with
a bunch of executives again just really trying to get
the may I ready, now I'm.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
In Miami and now you're in Miami and doing it.
I mean I by the way, I personally can't wait
to see your presentation. But you are really taking the
bull by the horns in terms of getting out in
front and teaching companies and leaders and boards and others
how to think about this. And I'll tell you it's
(03:29):
important because for those of us who are in or
and Mike is back in a big operating role, you
need your partners and other thought leaders who were out
there and spending the time trying to assess it. I
remember in my early days of digital, even though I
was in a corporate role, that was kind of my
job because I wasn't in a functionally operating role on
a specific business. I was in this corporate role.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, you were the evangelists. You were the translator.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I was the evangelist, and I got to be out
there and figure it out and then figure out how
to translate it. And so when you're the one day
to day running a business, you really do need people
like you to help you make sense of it.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I've been getting a lot of great feedback. We're going
to be launching something that's not think going to be
a pretty cool thing for Alpha, which is going to
be our Alpha outlook, and so this is kind of
like our annual predictions and kind of where the puck
is going. And so I've been getting so much feedback,
I think I might do this as a public webinar,
so stay tuned. I got to work out on the logistics,
(04:26):
but I might do something in December where you know,
just open and just kind of really help folks again.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Just get ready super interesting and you know, meantime, we
did spend our last episode trying to do our campaign
post mortem, meaning the ultimate campaign, the election campaign. Lots
of interesting feedback from people, and it's kind of nice
because we're going to pivot from talking about that to
(04:54):
getting back into a topic that I feel is a
perennial favorite, but now, you know, you put it in
an even new new cultural context, which is leadership and
lessons in leadership, which is bigger than just marketing or
brands or it is, well.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Not more than ever. We need real leadership.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
It is about the essence of business and culture and
all that. And you know, here's a fun thing. So
we're gonna we're gonna invite a new friend to the
pod who is an NBA legend.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Yeah, who's our friends.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
We'll give the full intro in a bit but Shane
Baddier is joining us. He was a basketball legend and
I met him through someone I look up to so much,
and I'm honored to know Adam Grant, who I mean
is just well, you know, that's a drop. I like
it talking about going back to early days of digital
(05:44):
and he was is a Wharton professor, but now of
course best selling author. I mean, massive social following. I
always always so you know him before he blew up,
he was big, but now he's enormously big, and I
truly truly do admire and he's just one of those
you know how you have those go to people for wisdom,
(06:04):
He's one of my like every single little post he makes,
oh so smart. And he reached out to me and
introduced me to Shane, who had just moved to Charlotte,
and said, that's awesome. You guys should get together. So
it was a double gift because I got to have
a quick reconnect with Adam and now gotten to know Shane.
So I think you're going to really like this conversation.
(06:26):
I think everyone's going to really like this conversation.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
So, I mean, obviously just know of him as a
fan as a sports fan, but I've just been very impressed,
you know, kind of just doing the prep work, just
what he's done in business and in leadership. And you know,
I think one of the telling signs is like, how
do we really find ways to inspire when maybe people
are feeling not inspired?
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Right?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
How do you actually lead when people are feeling fatigued?
And so I just really think that the leadership narrative
is more critical than ever.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
I agree, Well, when we come back, we're going to
have a great conversation about all that with Shane. Okay,
we're back, and we are joined now by Shane Battier,
two time NBA champion, a leader on and off the court,
who was famously dubbed the no stats all Star by
(07:18):
writer Michael Lewis in a major New York Times feature
story on him. So what did Lewis mean by that? Well,
he recognized and Shane, you're going to be talking to
us about it. That Shane's gift was doing all the
little things that don't necessarily show up in a box score,
like setting the perfect screen, locking down an opponent, building
team chemistry. But these contributions proved to be crucial to
(07:41):
his team's success and actually changed how basketball's played and understood.
Known for his intellectual approach to the game, Shane was
one of the first athletes to leverage analytics and data
favorite topic of ours in a way that also changed
the game, and Shane went on to translate those talents
and insights into becoming a powerful well speaker on leadership,
(08:01):
emphasizing the power of humility, teamwork, and preparation. He's also
an investor, a philanthropist, and now even a podcast host
himself with The Glue Guys that you Do with co
hosts Alex Smith and Ravii Gupta, cutting across the worlds
of sports and business. So welcome Shane. We're so happy
to have you.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Thank you, Thank you for the wonderful introduction. It's a
way cooler introduction than I am in real life.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
So you modest to bring Marisa wherever you go. She'll
do all your.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
You guys are like the best market I think I know.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
So listen where I want to start with. I mean
Michael Lewis, who people probably know if you don't know
his name as a household name. He is one from
writing books that actually tie to culture and economics and
sports like Moneyball, like The blind Side and He wrote
this profile about you back in two thousand and nine,
and he brands you basically speaking of branding the nose
(09:00):
stats all Star and one of my favorite descriptions of
you in it gives a little bit of an explanation
to what I think he meant by that title. So here's,
if I may, I'm going to read this Lewis wrote
about you. Battier's game is a weird combination always nice
to be called weird, right of obvious weaknesses and nearly
invisible strengths. When he's on the court, his teammates get better,
(09:23):
often a lot better, and his opponents get worse, often
a lot worse. He may not grab a huge number
of rebounds, but he has an uncannyability to improve his
teammates rebounding everything that leads to winning that you can
get to through intellect instead of innate ability. I mean,
first of all, wow and congratulations, and I'm sure all
(09:45):
that did. And you know your life was already kind
of profoundly big playing in the NBA, being like such
a high school All Star. But did you know from
the beginning that this is what you were doing? Did
you know that that's whether you knew it in your head,
is no stats, all star or not, because we're going
to talk about what that means for leadership. But did
you know that was your superhero talent?
Speaker 3 (10:06):
No? No, I was a humble kid from suburb of Detroit,
and from the earliest ymc A basketball that I played,
I had one goal just to win, just to win,
and I understood that like when I won and my
team did well, like everyone was happy and everyone wanted
me on their team. Okay, so it wasn't about like
(10:27):
my performance, wasn't about my stats, and yes I was
tall and pretty athletic, and it was about like, hey,
how do we do that? And so I took that
mentality with me literally from kindergarten all the way to
my last day in the NBA. It's like, what do
we need to do? And so I was never afraid
to do the dirty work, the unglamorous things, because I
knew it just helped us win. No one ever taught
(10:48):
me this the less than I figured out when I
was in first second grade. And so when Lewis said, hey,
I want to tell your story, I'm like, what story? Like,
I'm on athletic. You know, I averaged about ten points
a game. Which is like very very average. Most NBA
fans be like, yeah, Betty, he's not that quick, he's
not that strong, he's not that exciting. But Lewis said, look,
(11:08):
every team you've ever played on has one and one
at a huge level, whether it's three state championships in Michigan,
a country day, or going to Duke University winning a
national championship. I graduated the all time winning his college
basketball player in history. It was a compelling store for
Lewis to tell why this guy who was like who
failed every metric of the Eyeball test, slow on athletic,
(11:30):
very modest stats always won. And it took the analytics
revolution for me to understand that the things that I
did had tremendous value and like way more value than
I thought, and so like I was a master of
like the plays that never showed up on ESPN on
Sports Center, like running back on defense, okay, diving for
(11:52):
a loose ball just to get like one stinking possession
for my team, or setting a good screen so my
teammate could get open for an open shop, right, Like,
there are no stat columns on the box score that
show that value. But in the analytics age, and the
data age of basketball, we understand better like no, those
are actually very very important plays and has nothing to
(12:15):
do with talent but everything to do about awareness and
resilience and just overall effort. So Lewis told that story,
you know, it was very validating for me. It really
made my career in terms of who I am and
what I'm about, and I love telling the story to people.
My superpower was just basically boosting team performance through presence,
(12:38):
just by who I was, not what I said or
what I tried to affect, just by the things that
I did that were silent in the shadows, helped my
team win and at a really really large level. And
I think there's so many people out there who feel
just relegated in the workplace and in their families and
their communities, and my message in them is there's so
(12:59):
much value and doing those things and helping your team win,
helping other people be their best. And even though if
you don't get recognized immediately, if you do that enough
and the people around you win enough, they're going to
realize you're the common bond and you're the reason why
they're able to elevate their performance. And so it's a
(13:19):
message that that made sense to me, and I think
it makes sense to a lot of folks.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Sane, You're just speaking to my heart as a sports fan.
You know, I grew up loving more football what Americans
called soccer, but I feel like soccer and basketball are
truly the most athletic, the most difficult sports, and everything
that you just said, you know, those are actually metrics
that you do track in soccer. Those are the things
(13:45):
that people care about. And you know, I'm a huge
arsenal fan of Marson knows ad nauseum. You know, one
of my favorite players is bukay Osaka. And to see
a winger running back to be a defender at its
non stop. Those are the things that people, truly, to
your point, they might not see in basketball, but now
they can through data. But you know, I want to
(14:07):
take the point that you made, which is so important,
you know, in a little bit of a different direction.
There is this moment that we're in where you see
big leaders and big egos go hand in hand and
everything you just said, you know, the humility of it,
and just the fact that you're just trying to work
for your team. Are you an exception? Do you feel
that leadership today needs to have the big ego. And
obviously we just went through a major election and so
(14:29):
CEOs are big egos. Like, do you feel that your
form of leadership is able to really cut through the noise?
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Yes? I do. I think the scale is tipped the
other way. Especially for young people who grow up in
the Instagram generation, they feel they have to show the
world look at me, I'm special, I'm talented, and so
with the curated Instagram post and look at me, look
at me, look at me, and look at me. And
(14:58):
my message to not only young people but everybody's like, no, no, Like,
if you're part of a winning team, that's how you
create value for yourself. That is how you create legacy
for yourself. It's not the other way around. You don't
create legacy by being so great that everyone's like, oh
my gosh, this person is so great, like let's follow them,
let's listen to that.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
No.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
No, if you're part of a brand, if you're part
of a team that wins, that oozes excellence, like the
shine that you get from being part of that is
what matters.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Play for the badge, as they say, yeah yeah, play
for the front of the shirt and they'll remember the
name of the back of the shirt exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
But I think it's interesting. I mean, look, Michael Lewis
then and you argue the world has changed even more
in this extreme called you the most abnormally unselfish basketball
player you've ever seen. And I think as you equate
that to leadership, what.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Are all these words more? It's a weird abnormal.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
I mean, I know I am weird and normal, I know.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
But like they're compliments.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Say he's a unicorn, right, I mean, well, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
I actually think that's what he was calling you. He
was calling you a unicorn. But I think there's something
I mean, look, I think that's why he's such a
gifted writer too, is bringing out these interesting stories, several
of which have come through the world of sports. But
you know what he was talking about is the sort
of setup to that thought. To build on what Stephen
was saying, is this, Usually there is this tension between
(16:17):
the group and the individual. In sports and in business,
the temptation is you make it about yourself. And I'll
tell you there's a whole other dimension of that. As
a woman, I think women get cast even like with
a much more harmful brush of Oh, it's about you.
But put that one aside.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
That's another pod, another pod, but.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
It all ties into this idea of is it like,
I mean, glad your visceral reaction was yes, it's totally possible.
But how do you really convince, now that you speak
so much on leadership that playing for the team that
way is actually the best way or one of the
best ways to be a great leader.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Had one goal, and I played for like the best,
the best coaches Ay named Mike Sesski, the all time
winning as coach in college basketball QB. Brown, Like I
played for Hall of Fame coaches. I had an embarrassment
of amazing coaches, and I had one goal. My goal
was to make those coaches stay up at night if
they subbed me out for one minute. I wanted to
be so valuable to what the team did that they
(17:20):
couldn't live without me on the floor for just a woman.
If I played thirty nine minutes, I wanted them to say, man,
like that one minute Battier was out. It was scary.
So how do you do that? You have to, like
make your coaches, make your managers, make your leaders just
totally rely on you with your talent, with your discipline,
with your preparation, with your relentlessness, with your resilience, with
(17:41):
your attitude, with your enthusiasm. Right, those are all things
that like you control. It doesn't matter what school you
went to or you know what your zip code was
growing up. If you control all the things that you
really can control to the best of your ability. Guess
what your manager, your coach is going to say, Man,
I can rely on him or her. I can rely
(18:02):
on them, and I need them in the game whatever
that game is a huge account, a huge presentation. I
need this person on this And so that is how
you create value for yourself. Make yourself an indispensable to
any team that you're on. And it's apparent if you're
doing the work and you're bringing people together and you're
(18:22):
that positive energizer. So if people know, all right, you're
not going to slip through the cracks, we need you
on this case. And that happens time and time and
time again. Guess what, I don't care what your stats are,
what your role is, what your title is, what your
salary is, You're going to be in the game. And again,
this is how you create legacy, is how you create
value for yourself. As an individual.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
So take that concept of how you're creating value, because
ultimately all these things are businesses, right, whether it's the
business of a brand or the business of sports. You know,
the data is so critical to it. And I'm just
so curious, you you know, either as an athlete or
you know, knowing a lot of friends are still you know,
obviously in the game, how has data transformed this? Because
(19:05):
are they now living by the data set that is
being used to track them? Because everything has gone moneyball, right,
I'm just curious, like, how do you balance that art
in science, right? Because you still want to have some
of the magic, but you got a lot of math
in there too.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Yeah, Stevens, It's funny. I was introduced analytics almost twenty
years now, two thousand and six when I got traded
to the Houston Rockets and they were the first team to
use data analytics as as an organizational philosophy. I understood
because I took statistics in college, the power of sample size,
standard deviation, what an outlier is. And so you're making
me blessed.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
This is my love language. I love talking about data.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Oh stop.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Literally the way that I was taught basketball analytics from
Darryl Morey and Sam Hankey, the two ogs of basketball analytics.
They said, look, you gotta think about basketball like playing blackjack. Okay,
So you see time at the blackjack table, all right,
and you get dealt two aces. What do you do? Okay?
You split them? Every single time. You split them fifty
percent of the time. The fifth time you get two
(20:08):
aces delt to you, you say, you know what, yolo, I'm
gonna keep it together. No, you split them one hundred
percent of the time. Why because the book says to
do that? And why does the book say that to
do that? Because it gives you the best chance, over
the course of a shoe, a session, whatever, of winning. Okay.
It's a positive ev move, okay, And so whether you
(20:30):
win or not is immaterial. You split the aces and
the dealer hits the twenty one, you're like, okay, whatever,
Like still that was the right play, Okay, and you
do it again next time. And so learning to separate
the results from the environment and the process is what analytics.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Is just a build on that. But you're living life.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
In probabilities in probabilities.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Right, and so many folks don't want to do that.
It's the heart and mind right, like your gut says,
I want to do this, but if you've been trained properly,
you're going to actually listen to the probabilities because the
data doesn't alie correct.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
In the corporate world, it's a bad play. It's like
hitting on sixteen if you don't have good customer service, right,
you may keep your turn numbers down, but like, if
you don't have good customer service, you're probably not going
to win. And that's like hitting on sixteen or seventeen, right.
So like understanding where the easy wins are in data
(21:26):
and just doing those things again and again and again
and again and again, and avoiding the things that beat
you again and again and again and again. Like that
keeps you in the game. It's not about like optimizing
and maximizing the potential. It's like, let's use data to
just avoid the really really bad things that can ruin
our group, ruin our business, ruin our trajectory, and that
(21:46):
like beats half your competition. As stupid as that sounds, well.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Can I flip that on you though, Because what's interesting is,
in a sense business has had, especially when you think
about marketing and brands, a bit of a pendulum problem.
There wasn't enough day and that's exactly what you're saying
about basketball, and so it was revolutionary to start introducing
data and suddenly optimizing results. We are in a funny
place in the world of i'll say marketing, but I
(22:11):
mean it media more globally, where the pendulum has now
swung to the point where there can be a real tension.
We're trying to over rely on the data and the
science has lost some of the art, and we talk
a lot about the fact that it is, of course
a blend. So how did that factor in either then
or now? As you now are an executive yourself and
(22:33):
have been for many years, do you see the creativity
still in the game and the intuition along with the science.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
That's a great question. The game has become much more homogenized.
You know, in basketball, for instance, we know that the
team basically that makes more three pointers wins the game.
All right, that explains like eighty five percent of who
wins a game on any given night who makes more
three point shots, right, which basketball peers don't want to hear.
You know, some of the art is taken out of it.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
And you know, equate this to business obviously keep going.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
Yeah, exactly, But like you say that, in baseball, like
baseball has been solved, and so in baseball it's very
different because it's a series of one on one matchups.
But they know if you hit a baseball at a
certain launch angle and at a certain velocity, it will
be a home run. In every baseball park from here
to Tokyo. Their whole organizations that train their entire you know,
baseball roster to hit a ball at a certain angle
(23:26):
at a certain speed because that gives them the best
chance to win. Right. So baseball for all in kinds
of purposes, has been solved. Basketball much more nuanced, Football,
other sports, soccer much more nuanced, not not as simple.
What I tell people, I started and ran the Miami
heats of the NBA's analytic department for five years, and
we had fantastic data scientists, fantastic analysts. We were producing
(23:50):
some amazing research, and my job as the head of
research was to use that data to combat human bias
and biases. I told people, this is not the answer,
Like we're giving you information to make decisions, but what
we're really trying to do is trying to keep guardrails
on the biases that ruin us all. And so it's
(24:13):
an interesting way to think about it. So if you're
running data or you're running marketing, yes you have to
be able to run some of these regressions and understand
the numbers, but you better be well versed in behavioral
psychology for the decision makers that fall victim to those
despite and because of the numbers. And that is where
(24:33):
the sweet spot where someone can really really gain market
share and just more success by balancing the data with
the behavioral science and the biases that we fall victim to.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
That's really nicely said.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
I love the fact that you're talking about behavioral science.
You know, I'm so curious. There's something very special when
you do sports. Men, and obviously women's sports is going
through a huge you know, rightly justified boom a little
bit too late in a lot of our opinions. But
you know, my son is nine years old. He's playing
club soccer in LA.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Yeah, it's awesome.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
I just see the grit, the perseverance that it teaches,
the discipline, you know, all these kind of soft things
quote unquote that you're learning by being a part of
the team. You know, I'm curious, what do you see
either in you know, kind of young professionals today that
are either not connecting, that are not finding ways to either.
(25:28):
You know, they didn't have the opportunity to be on
the sports team, they didn't have the opportunity to be
coached by coach k you know, like, I feel like
we're in this moment where the ability to connect and
really understand the value of human behavior, Like what are
you seeing in the folks that you're engaged with?
Speaker 3 (25:43):
I do a lot of corporate speaking that it's the
number one question I get. How do I connect with
with gen Z? How do I connect with millennials? And
they're so different than Gen xers or the generation and
in my estimation, they're not young people. All right. This
is a great parenting or managing advice. Young people till
about the age of thirty, they crave two things. They
(26:05):
crave status and respect, and they are always constantly scanning
the landscape to see do I have status? Do I
have respect? And this is actually like something that has
come with us from one hunter gatherer times because if
you do not have status, if you can help the
hunter gatherer tribe survive and gather food or defend us
against mastodons or or the next tribe over. You know,
(26:28):
you were kicked out and that meant certain death. So
that's stay with us. And so we are terrified to
be kicked out of whatever tribe that we're in and
be different. And so the actions of our young people
today are solely based on acceptance, and they're always scanning
for status and respect, and so as managers, as coaches, right,
(26:50):
honoring that that biological desire, right while still having high
expectations and being support of that's the game. That's the game.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
But isn't there the disconnect then? Because you obviously been trained,
You've been exposed to incredible leaders, and now you are
the leader training other leaders. But it's not kind of
like common sense is not common leadership is not pervasive, correct,
And so there's so many bad managers. They don't know
how to manage people, they don't know how to inspire people,
(27:25):
and you know, frankly, they probably don't really give a
shit about these people because they're all expendable, right, or
you know, we're going to do a layoff, or now
I see AI and automation coming more and more. So
you know, how do you talk to not just the
young professionals, and you know so many of our listeners
they care about this, But I think it's also the managers, right,
what advice do you give to the managers?
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Yeah, look again, I play for the greatest coach in
basketball and sports history, Coach k and he did three
things better than anybody. The level of energy he's spent
on individual consideration. Okay, thinking about each person on his team,
assistant coaches, his executive assistants, everybody associated with the program.
(28:05):
He thought about what does this person need for me
to be their best? And that is exhausting. Most people
don't want to, you know, sacrifice the time and the
effort to think about their people. Every single coach Kate
didn't have hobbies, he didn't watch TV. Like all he
thought about were his people and it showed and he
(28:26):
was able to deliver that every single day to his
team everybody associated with and like, first of all, that's
what separates an amazing leader. Your job as a leader
to bang the culture drum every single day every day,
like ad Nausom, you have to remind your people why
they're there every single day because we get distracted and
(28:49):
our attention is being pulled left and right. We have
to say no, we're here to win, and this is
how we win. We're here to win. This is how
we win. We're here to win. This is how we win.
Exhausting exact people don't want to put the effort in
to do that.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
I'm noticing a pattern here versa. It's the repetition and effort.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
That's what I'm hearing.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
And communication is the last part of that. And communication
is exhausting. The only way to do is actually to
do it and to connect and to talk and get
a pulse and take feedback and give feedback and all
those three things. Energy is the common thread, and great
leaders expand the energy because they know the cause is worthwhile.
(29:33):
Subpar leaders, below average leaders, they take shortcuts and it
shows in my experience. Those are the three things so
banging the culture drama. Individual consideration and communication are non negotiables.
If you want to be a leader, and if you
want to be a great leader, you have to do
it every day.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
That is so I feel like every single corporate CEO
needs to hear this message.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Here we are.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
You guys are the marketers make that happen. I'm just
the jock. I'm just the jaw. You know, it's your jaw.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
It truly is. I've been, you know, in lots of
different industries, but one of my most incredible you know,
kind of collways was this woman Pandemanium worked with me
at Univision way back when, and she would always talk
about people don't care how much you know until they
know how much you care. And I feel like that
is a nice summary of what you just said. But
(30:23):
it takes work.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
It's hard.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
That's where they say being a corporate athlete. And I'll
tell you something, I feel inspired because I think the
best leaders do care and want to care, and that
is where you check a little of your ego at
the door. But if anything, it's a reminder to double
down and put even more of the energy. And so
I love that. We're going to take a quick break
and when we come back, we're going to play a
(30:47):
little game, not quite the game of basketball, but the
game of cooler cringe. We'll be right back, and we're.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Back and we're ready to play not the game of basketball,
but the game of core cringe of Shane. All right, Shane,
so cool or cringe? I mean you go sports betting?
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Okay? Ah, cool and moderation.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
So many things are cool in moderation.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
I guess right, you can't. You can't put that genie
back in the bottle, right because it's Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
My life motto is everything in moderation, including moderation. Okay, so.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Now that's good. I like that. All right, my turn.
Since we've been talking all about team culture, here's a
fun cooler cringe ready, office happy hours featuring mindfulness breaks
instead of drinks.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Cringe.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
We started to have some fun.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
You're allowed to elaborate, by the way, but cringe.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
I respect my sober friends. I respect it. It's not
easy for my sober friends, and I have great admiration
for them. With some of the best conversations I've had
it has been through uh, you know, the bottom of mine,
my wine glass.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
And so cheers to that.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Cheers to that.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
That's the best way I can put it.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Quick, quick funny story just came from my first board
meeting in my new role. Was in the airport lounge
with my new amazing kind of work partner, and we
had a call to do and I had left I'm
traveling so much. I had left my AirPods at home.
And how we're gonna do this call. And she shared
an air pod with me, so we now literally as
well as figuratively, put our heads together to do this call.
(32:27):
But we each had a glass of champagne in my hand.
She had a glass of bourbon. I mean it was
you know what we've gone done to the board meeting
in a lounge. We'll like, you know, we need to
hide the drinks. I'm like, you think they're really going
to mine that We're having a drink on the end
of this phone call. So you know I'm with you
on the happy hour. Ye bring snow, mindfulness, brigs with that,
all right?
Speaker 2 (32:46):
All right? So I think there I know where you
might lean on this, but cool or cringe? Nil deals
for college athletes.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
I have a sixteen year old son who's a pretty
good ballplayer, so that's cool by me if you can
on the car.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
And what what'snil for the folks that I got now.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Name, image and likeness. It's a very different world than
I grew up with. My NIL was basically, if you
have commercial value, a business can now pay you to
help promote their business. My NIL was an extra meatball
at the cafeteria Duke University. So this was not available
you know, I'm happy for these young guys who can
(33:24):
commercialize their talents. My advice to these young people is, look,
the money is great, it's not life changing. You know
what is life changing the network and the people that
you meet at the schools you go to and that's
forever and that has a much larger lifetime value than
any nil money you get. So while the money's great,
eight have fun, go out, buy a nice car and
(33:46):
buy some clothes. You still have to foster the relationship
with the university and the people go to school with
because that'll last much longer.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
All right, Last one, because we have been talking sports
quite a bit throughout this past year on Brand New,
and we did an episode a while back with our
friend Kathy Carter, who's been a leader in women's sports
and most recently CEO of the LA twenty twenty eight Games.
So we talked about this one. So now we'll throw
it to you. What do you think cooler cringe E
sports in the future, Olympic Games?
Speaker 3 (34:16):
Cool? Cool? Really, I've come around on that.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
These there's a six year old son. Help of that.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
These people are you know, these folks, they're good. The anticipation,
the hand eye right, and it may not be your
father's sport, but do you have to be in tunia
to be in shape, you have to have concentration. And
so I respect the top level E game gamers out there,
and so I'm gonna say cool, I say cool.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
I love it. Well, you're cool, and we're really happy
that you chose to join us today. As Steven said,
so glad to share. You're really inspiring and different, not
abnormal in a bad way, abnormal in the best of ways,
as we said, for lessons in how to play the game,
and of course we mean that in a much broader
(35:06):
sense in basketball. So Shane, thanks so much for joining.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Oh thank you. If you want to hear more of that,
tune into Glue Guys on Spotify or Apple podcasts or
get your podcasts. These are the things we talk about,
just trying to trying to help us all just get
along and do a little bit better.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Thank you so much, sann A real pleasure.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
All right, that was awesome, Marissa. He's really impressive and
really inspiring. Great to have him on the pod. But
now it's time for what's on your mind? And Marissa,
what do we have this week?
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Well, we have a comment this week which I like
thinking in terms of what people have to say, not
just the questions they have for us. And our comment
this week came from Aaron and it was about our
last episode in which we did our election campaign post mortem,
and in commenting about our second takeaway, which was that
the media playbook has totally changed, Aaron wrote us to say,
(35:58):
I think there was a mismatch between celebrities and messaging.
People who feel economic pain don't want to hear from
people who don't feel that pain telling them they should
be worrying about something else. And I thought that was
a really interesting comment and it made me think that
we should discuss what does that actually mean for the
(36:19):
influences celebrities in general, Because here's the counterpart. Celebrities and
brand campaigns are as pervasive as ever, so I think
it would.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Be they're pervasive, but are they are they impactful? Are
they relevant?
Speaker 3 (36:30):
You know?
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Is the juice worth of squeeze?
Speaker 1 (36:31):
As I like to say, well, or to put it
back in basketball terms, do sports rooms does that play
still work? Or when it might not be a successful play?
So I think this is worth debating. Off of Aaron's comment,
you oh, I'm you know, you're not the only one
who can throw a little sports talk into the conversation.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
I know I.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Sports that was a small sports flex, but I just
want to repeat that because I think it's interesting people
who feel economic pain don't want to hear from people
who don't feel that pain telling them that they should
be worrying about something else. That was really well said.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
What do you think ethink?
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Gvern is spot on? I mean, look at the whole
rise of the creator economy, right, Look no further than that.
People are looking not to authority figures. They want authentic figures.
And so when you think of the person that's on
TikTok on reels and they're saying, hey, here's what I'm
going through, here's the hack, here's how you save money,
whatever it is, and you know what, they're not all
(37:28):
dolled up. They're not super glamorous. It's like they may
have just rolled out of bed. There's no makeup, and
they're just talking to the screen, you know. And I
feel like so many people, like you know, even in business,
are doing that. I mean, I don't know if folks
follow Jeff Berman from Wait What, and he is doing
all these great, you know kind of videos on LinkedIn
(37:49):
and it's just him like walking like after he did
a run, like he's in the baseball cap and he's
just saying, hey, here are my thoughts about you know, democracy,
or about business or about this or that. So I
feel like the ability need to connect and just really
meet people where they are. I do feel like the
celebrity thing is probably a play that's a little bit
played out.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Well, okay, I'll play a little Devil's advocate here. I mean,
first of all, on the influencer creator side, some people
do it with no makeup. But have you looked in
the world of beauty and fashion and people who want
to be playing in that world, they're not rolling out
of bed and doing other contents. So in fairness, that's fair,
but different category, that's true, right, But that's part of it.
(38:29):
I mean, I just think it's interesting to reflect on
where influence is coming from and that maybe the conclusion
is simply that it's no longer a one size fits
all solution. Celebrities are not this magic pass to borrowed
celebrity the way it used to confer fame on brands,
and that's where it was so valuable, But at the
(38:50):
same time, there was just this question that we wrestled
with last week when we were doing last episode, when
we were talking about this in terms of of channeling
the right sense of connection and the right sense of
do you understand me? But celebrities were never meant to
understand you. Celebrities were meant to be aspirational.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
But isn't there a nuance there Isn't there also different
types of celebrities, like, for example, like we just had Shane.
Athletes I think are a different type of celebrity, and
then you see athletes that came from nothing, and you know,
certainly that story could be for lots of different types
of celebrities, but I felt the athlete story is very
unique in that way that people can connect. It feels
a little bit more maybe accessible. Again, maybe it's just
(39:33):
my own bias and my own echo chamber, but I
feel like different types of celebrities will, you know, depending
on the brand or certainly depending on the initiative, But
I just feel that you need to figure out, like
why are you even using a celebrity in the first place.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
I think that's a fair challenge for most tactics, and
if anything, that's a lesson we talked about last week,
and I think Aaron put into a little extra context
on that part, which is thank you Eric, ask yourself,
because it worked before, is it the right thing for
what's going to work today? So that's it for now.
Thank you for joining us. If you like what you're
(40:09):
hearing from us, subscribe, send us a question or comment.
You can drop them in any of our social channels,
or send us a direct email at ideas at brandshnew
dot com
Speaker 2 (40:20):
And join us next time for what's brand New
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