Click Here, Buy Now (with guests Sarah Hofstetter and Rachel Tipograph)

It’s back to school time with Steven and Marisa, as they bring on fellow podcasters Sarah Hofstetter and Rachel Tipograph, co-hosts of Brave Commerce, and each well-known CEOs in the world of digital commerce. When these four industry leaders who have known each other for years get into it with each other, you know the discussion is dynamic on where commerce is going. From debating whether “personalization” is all it was hyped to be, to how AI is changing shopping, there’s a lot to learn on this episode (including what’s it’s really been like for two women CEOs in the world of tech). 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi, and thanks for joining us on Brand New from
the iHeart Podcast Network and Brand New Labs. I'm Marissa
Fahlberg and.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
I'm Stephen Wolf Delta.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
Marissa, what is brand new in my world? In your world,
in the world, because there is so much happening right now.
I mean you can look at what's happening with the election,
you can look at what's happening in our industry. I mean,
Elon Musk is suing advertisers. I mean, it is absolutely
batchit crazy. This is kind of a moment to kind
of just regroup and really get ready for what's going

(00:37):
to be happening come post Labor Day, hit the fall,
hit the ground running.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
But like, where's your head in all this?

Speaker 1 (00:44):
Well, it's funny that you should say that, given that
we typically think of August and in other countries it
is a slower month, but you know, not in the
good old US, or we just keep on pounding. You're right,
the election cycle has certainly taken syndromatic turns, which you
talked about recently, and I think we should take a
moment to talk about what is happening with Elon Musk

(01:06):
and the X platform suing advertisers. For colluding not to
advertise on X, which is sort of a strange turn
of events given that it's a free market and advertisers
should have the right to control where they advertise period paragraph.
What do you think I.

Speaker 3 (01:26):
Mean, I just think this is so definitely trying to
grab for attention. But you know, he's suing an advertising
trade group called the Global Alliance for Responsible Media.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
The acronym is GUARD.

Speaker 3 (01:38):
It's sponsored by you know, kind of the World Federation
of Advertisers, the WFA. But I mean, to be honest,
this is really is not like this, you know, kind
of major industry trade order, at least not for a
lot of the things that you and I are involved with.
And so it just feels a little bit like a
red herring. And I just, you know, don't understand kind
of you know, Elion with Justin can and he was

(01:58):
trying to court advertisers. He was meeting with a whole
bunch of folks, you know, including us and you know
a lot of our friends. And at the same time,
you know, it was what only a few months ago
there who was telling folks to kind of go fuck themselves.
And it's just do you really want to have advertisers
as part of the business. It's just a little bit,
you know, kind of befuddling when you really think about

(02:18):
what are you really trying to do? Are you really
trying to run a business here? Because this is not
the way your really incentivize clients.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
Well, lawsuits are generally not a good way to say, hey,
let's get along better together and can you come over
and do business with me. I mean, if you're at
the point of filing a suit, what does that say
about where we are? And listen, this was a hard
one for me because I'm going to be honest. Our
business is built on relationships. CEO of X is someone

(02:45):
with whom I have a real relationship and care about.
But I'm sort of separating that feeling of you know,
genuine friendship with confusion about these actions. And what's been
an interesting outcome of it is now the little sort
of sub association. As you noted, garm has said, well,
we fold, we fold, and I don't understand it better

(03:08):
than that. They feel there's going to be such a
cost and they were not set up to be this
big money making group, but it was really just to prey
an alliance and say, all right, we want responsible media.
For me, that seems like a good thing. It was about.
It was about trying to create, honestly protection for advertisers
to be in brand safe environments, and X feels unfairly

(03:31):
targeted by that. I think that's at the root of this.
It feels very emotional, it feels sort of personal to them.
But now triggering this lawsuit is sort of throwing that
whole baby out with the bathwater. And now they're going
to say, well, we don't have the means to defend
ourselves in legal actions, so we're going to fold. And
it's just these are just not behaviors or news headlines

(03:55):
any of us could have imagined a few years ago
in this world in which we play. I mean, there's
a lot that's broken, but this becomes like just tabloid
fodder the strangest sort. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (04:07):
I just feel like everyone is really just trying to
figure out how to grow their business and it's only
getting harder. I mean, you look in the traditional media space,
I mean there's so much happening, you know, whether it's
Warner Brothers, Discovery, you know, Paramount. I mean, there is
a lot of challenges in media. You know, a lot
of layoffs. A lot that's happening in terms of just
you know, kind of the distressed assets of traditional media.

(04:28):
And so when you think about where is the puck going,
I think everyone is trying to figure out, like how
am I going to grow my business? And they just
don't have time for this noise.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
Well that's true, that's true. And by the way, I
guess and fairness, you named a couple of folks that
are taking legal actions, so maybe maybe this isn't such
an anomaly, but X is non traditional media platform. But
it's so it's the whole landscape maybe fighting a bit
for scraps, and we as marketers and advertisers feel incredible
constraints on budgets and performance and all the good stuff

(04:58):
that we talk about. It's a hard economy still to
generate commerce. So we are we talking more about commerce today,
especially as the world of it keeps changing. But yeah,
that was that was an interesting headline of recent days.

Speaker 3 (05:13):
So where we are right now, Advertisers are definitely in
the back to school mindset, and if we're really being honest,
I feel like they've been in it, you know, for
a while. They certainly are planning well in advanced, as
you know most great brands do. But the truth of
the matter is, if you think of stuffing like Amazon Crime,
that for me has really become like the kickoff or
something like back to school. And you see so many families,

(05:34):
including my own, really using Amazon Prime Day to really
start to plan and get their stuff. And you know,
gear whatever it is for the kids, I mean, are
you also experiencing that? And certainly you have something else
going on with your family this back to school as well?

Speaker 1 (05:48):
Oh man, I mean back to school just as a
whole other texture around it for me, because this is it.
I mean, we're about to ship our youngest off to
college for the first time. We are really I mean,
it's a big page turn. So back to school this
summer is the second and last time that I'm doing

(06:10):
the big dorm shopping practiced a lot of retail therapy
is my way of dealing everything change. And no, no,
it was good, and we strategized Amazon Prime and we
were prepared, we had our lists of we were really good.
But you know, I also do like to spread my
shopping round and I like to spread it not only

(06:31):
beyond Amazon, which so tempting because it is so easy.
But also I'm very much someone likes to shop omni channel,
meaning I like to shop online and I like to
go into stores. We did, of course, we did some Target, frankly,
and it's such a big story in retail that's not
a new one but an ongoing one is off price,
and we are big home goods in this case, you

(06:54):
know Marshall's TJ Matt. I mean, they are unbelievable resources
for times like this or you want to have that
thrill of the find. So we're all over the place
in our shopping. But it's definitely a different back to
school for me. I'm ready to come borrow your children
a week or anyone else is listening. If you have
adorable children, then I can I can have a little

(07:15):
time with please.

Speaker 3 (07:18):
But you should be really really proud because you know,
to see one daughter in the industry now and one
now entering college, like those are the milestones and it's
an awesome accomplishment. And again I'll keep on getting tips
from you and David and how to raise kids properly
because you guys did it right well.

Speaker 1 (07:34):
It is funny to think about even when we went
to school and the shopping you had to do. There
was an urgency to make sure you got it all
because you know, you drove up in the car, you
packed it and on a plane, and now it's like, yes,
oh well, I mean if you forgot it, you'll amazon
it or you'll order it and it'll be to your
dorm in a couple of days. So it's just it's

(07:55):
just funny how even something like that is so profoundly
different when you think of about what it was just
a generation ago.

Speaker 3 (08:02):
And just wait until every college student has an AI assistant,
because that's coming. That will be the next wave of commerce.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
So I am fascinated by how that's going to play
out in her college experience. Again, I was saying generational difference.
Her big sister is five and a half years, six
years ahead of her in school and her college experience.
Zero discussion of AI certainly about plagiarism and using Google
and not citations, But we could obviously go on and

(08:30):
on about the impact. We talk about AI for business,
but AI in education and how that's being incorporated.

Speaker 3 (08:37):
It is going to certainly upend the way everyone does
their homework. But more importantly, when you think of everyone
having their own personal assistant, I mean, honestly, your youngest
as she enters college, when she's coming out, the exponential
gains that you see in AI over the next four years,
it's going to be so radically different, and so I'm
actually really excited for her, and Lord knows when that's

(08:59):
going to be.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
Like, it's really interesting. I know you're right just to
time spam this moment of what her class will have
with regards to AI and automation and digital and just
four years later, let alone when your kids go and
you know, of course we're talking about it through the
lens of back to school. Back to school's always been

(09:20):
interesting shopping period for me is someone that's marketed in
retail because it's really not one moment. Everyone goes back
to school at different times, but it's indicative of just
the changing nature of retail and commerce in general. And
when we come back, we're bringing on two really good
friends of ours have their own podcast, actually, and they

(09:41):
are too powerhouse leaders in the world of commerce, and
you know, considering how fundamental it is to brands and
to business, we've never just gone all the way there,
So stay tuned when we come back. That's what we're
going to talk about. This time, so we.

Speaker 3 (10:00):
Are talking brands and commerce, and joining us are two
incredible executives, incredible friends, and incredible women in the industry.
They are both accomplished CEOs and they're also podcasts and
co hosts themselves. And so first up, we have Sarah Hoffstetter,
who is currently the president of Profetero, a global e

(10:21):
commerce company that gives brands as analytics and insights to
accelerate their e commerce sales. And she was formerly the
president of Comscoring. For many years. Before that, she was
the chairwoman and CEO of the ad agency three sixty I,
which is where I first met her, and she currently
serves on the board of Campbell's soup company My Turn.

Speaker 1 (10:40):
I was trying to figure out whom I've known longer
between Sarah and the amazing Rachel Tipograph and Rachel, you
self describe yourself as amongst the Digerati since you became
an eBay power user at thirteen, and I was reflecting
on the fact that I think I met you. Not
too long after that, Rachel became the GAP's youngest ever
global director of Digital and Social Media. She then traveled

(11:04):
the world. I so remember that moment in your life
came back and said, I'm starting this company and it's
called Mickmack and it has gone on to become a
massive force in global e commerce enablement analytics for all
sorts of brands. These two women have too many accolades
and awards to try to name here, but as Steven said,

(11:24):
they're also an incredible duo together as co hosts of
their podcast Brave Commerce. So welcome Sarah and Rachel. We
are delighted to have you both.

Speaker 4 (11:35):
We're very happy to be here, so throwed.

Speaker 3 (11:37):
You can feel the excitement just coming across the audio.

Speaker 2 (11:40):
Catch you, Morissa.

Speaker 3 (11:41):
No, seriously, we love Sarah and Rachel and we love
your pod, Brave Commerce. Honestly, you know, we just wanted
to have this little collab between all of us. So
let's talk some Brave Commerce. You know, you've been interviewing
so many marketing digital leaders for I think it's over
four years now, including an episode with Marissa if I remember,
way back in November of twenty twenty. So do you, guys,
ever reflect on what has surprised you the most? You know,

(12:04):
what has actually taught you or impressed upon you, you know,
over your four years doing the pod?

Speaker 5 (12:10):
Happy to kick it off. Well, I think big takeaway
number one is doing it with Sarah. You know, Sarah
and I we only met slightly before building this podcast together,
and now I consider her one of the closest people
in my life and I just feel grateful to do
this with her.

Speaker 4 (12:25):
That's number one.

Speaker 5 (12:26):
Number two, I don't think either of us recognized how
much our companies would benefit from doing this podcast.

Speaker 4 (12:33):
And what I mean by that is we describe Brave
Commerce as a peer learning community. The thing about.

Speaker 5 (12:38):
Commerce is what's relevant today is irrelevant tomorrow. And Sarah
and I get the opportunity to get the greatest minds
within the brand, platform, advertising, commerce ecosystem onto the show
and pick their brain, and then we take that knowledge
back to our teams, back to our customers, and it
really advances our business. And then the third I think

(13:00):
is we had no idea if the community would actually
take to this, and the Brave Commerce community is a
real one. You know, people get jobs, they get mentorships,
they build friendships, they learn together, and so it's been
a pretty amazing experience over the last four years.

Speaker 3 (13:16):
It's expanded beyond just the pod, right, I mean, Sarah, like,
where's it gone.

Speaker 6 (13:20):
By the way, credit goes to Rachel. This whole podcast
was her idea. I think I might have listened to
one or two podcasts like ever before she even mentioned
this to me, and I'm like, I do not have
a voice for radio. This doesn't sound like a great idea.
I don't really know about this. And Rachel has long
been a visionary and this podcast was definitely her vision.

(13:42):
I'm just happy to be along for the rise.

Speaker 3 (13:44):
She's always scared to where the puck is going. Sarah,
I mean that's just yeah, that's just Rachel.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
Well, i'd argue you both are. But Sarah, I am
curious as a Stephen in terms of now four years
of interviewing people for it, what has surprised you in
terms of the themes around commerce or what's been just
this ongoing like this always comes up when you think
about it, besides loving that you're doing it together and
how it's been added of one of the big takeaways

(14:09):
if you were to summarize.

Speaker 6 (14:10):
That's a great question. And Marissa, it kind of talks
to the fact that you were one of the OG guests.
When we first started this, the question was like, who
are we going to have on this podcast. You want
it to be meedy enough for the commerce community, accessible
enough for those who were curious, and applicable to business leaders,
and being able to juxtapose all of those things together

(14:32):
can be somewhat challenging. One of the things that I
learned the most from doing this, more than anything else,
was that there was a void in the commerce space
for a community. Because all four of us come from
more of the marketing advertising backgrounds, there has been such
an incredible community that has been fostered. I'm not going

(14:53):
to say over the past hundred years because that's kind
of irrelevant, but let's just say over the past ten
twenty years there's been an incredible community fostered within advertising
marketing space, and that's been further enriched through diversity initiatives
and other initiatives to be more inclusive. In general, this

(15:15):
did not exist in the commerce space, and when I
joined Proftero in early twenty twenty, that was the biggest
shocker to me, the fact that there was really no community.
There was a couple of conferences, but people who were
working in commerce leadership roles were completely divorced from each other.

Speaker 3 (15:31):
And Sarka, can you just fine who was in that
commerce community. I mean what type of companies or what
type of category.

Speaker 6 (15:37):
Yes, I'm mostly talking about people on the brand manufacturer side,
So you know, I think the unilevers, the p andng's,
the crafts, but even you know, consumer electronics like Dell
and Google or Hasbro. Anybody who makes the thing that
they sell through a retailer is pretty much somebody sitting
in that addressable market. But the head of e comm
at Dell has never met the head of e comm

(15:59):
at Colgate. Really by now they have because you know,
great problems, Reeah.

Speaker 1 (16:03):
But I'm surprised because I feel like when I first
really got to work with you, Sarah, and we were
both kind of digital e commerce marketing, it felt like
there was community in that space. Then did it change?

Speaker 6 (16:14):
I think what happened was when the whole idea of
the initiatives not just around selling your products on your
own website, but what the mechanisms of selling it through
others like a Walmart, dot Com or Target, and the
complexity of the omni channel sale. Particularly just through that
whole idea of this multi threaded buying experience that really

(16:35):
gave rise to new kinds of talent and new kinds
of skills. So people who were heads of e commerce,
Like back when you and I met, when I was
at three sixty I and you were at Estay, there
wasn't anybody in that kind of a job at the time.
So these are jobs that have been more invented I
would say, in the past eight nine years. Anything before that.
They took a different skill set and applied it to this.

(16:57):
So it really is a burgeoning ish space, which of
course COVID put on insane steroids.

Speaker 5 (17:03):
To the point of themes, Sarah's talking a lot about personnel.
So something that's consistent over the last four years is
leadership and org design. Where should commerce sit within organizations
has moved over the last four years centralized, decentralized in
marketing and sales, the collapse of the CMO role, right,

(17:23):
everyone's sort of fighting for power between sales and marketing.

Speaker 4 (17:26):
That's been consistent.

Speaker 5 (17:28):
I think Another big consistent theme is how macroeconomic factors
are impacting commerce. Sarah has amazing articulation of sort of
these macro events that create these inflection points in commerce,
and we've seen it play out, and we see it
play out in literally Q two public earnings just last
week and this week. Yeah, I think third is retail media.

(17:51):
It's a bell whammy. We have not stopped talking about
it since twenty twenty.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
Okay, Rachel, pause, because we want to define retail media
for people that aren't deeply inside our business and want
to know what that means. It sounds intuitive, but it's
not exactly. Do you want to any one of us
can give the definition. MOHI, you go ahead.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
Sure.

Speaker 5 (18:09):
I think that the accepted industry definition around retail media
is retailers monetizing the PII, so personal identifiable information that
they get from consumers when consumers are shopping through those retailers,
and they're monetizing it in a new way in the
form of advertising. And so the way that retail media started,

(18:30):
it's actually been around for a long time because you
could obviously buy cap space and physical environments like Walmart.

Speaker 2 (18:36):
Oh, you used to be called shopper marketing.

Speaker 4 (18:38):
Right, shopper marketing.

Speaker 5 (18:40):
Then when commerce moved to the Internet and you had
a website like walmart dot com, all of a sudden
you could sell inventory there and the form of banner ads,
search words. Right, you're selling cookies at Walmart you can
bid for the word gluten freight. And then retail media
really hit an inflection point around twenty twenty, and it
has nothing to do with the pandemic and has everything

(19:00):
to do with changes in data privacy exactly.

Speaker 1 (19:04):
Well, if I can just interject on that, because twenty
twenty is when I got to Low's and it was
one of the first things on the agenda for me
was can you start a retail media network for us?
So I definitely know what you're talking about. It's good
to define it.

Speaker 6 (19:16):
What's interesting between those things is what you've seen over
the past few years is you've got these retailers becoming
media platforms, and you've got the media platforms selling shit.
So there's been a bit of a freaky Friday with
everybody's just trying to find the money, with retailers sitting
there saying, Okay, how am I going to find more

(19:37):
money in this retail business. Remember we were talking about
the collapse of the shopping mall. We were talking about
like all of these things about how instore is never
going to be a thing. Well, that liability is really
an asset because you can pretty much sell anything, and
so the more that they became media providers and threats
to the media companies. The more the media companies are like, oh, yeah,

(19:58):
you're watching the Olympics and you I want to buy
the deoderant you just saw an ad for go right
ahead and do it.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
And that's so great.

Speaker 6 (20:06):
It is a better experience, not positive for the consumer,
but it's confusing as hell if you are responsible for
a brand, because where does your next dollar go becomes
a much more complicated question.

Speaker 3 (20:18):
I love that you bring that upsad so last from
the past. When I was running the Walmart media business
at Publics many moons ago, we actually pioneered the first
retail media network and this was back in twenty ten
with Stephen Quinn when he was the CMO. And I'm
proud that we kind of identified this because again, I
was kind of always a fish out of order. I

(20:39):
was obviously, you know, kind of a tech executive that
was like pretending to be a media agency person. But
for me, it was just really you know, kind of
eye opening. Okay, if someone like Procter and Gamble has
thirty five percent of their North American sales coming from Walmart,
or someone like Loreal has fifty percent of their sales
coming from a Walmart. Why if you were the brand,
why would you spend that first dollar on anywhere other

(21:02):
than where your customer is. And I was like, you
should do that at Walmart. And I love what you said, Rachel,
But you know, the challenge is there was such a
disconnect between dot Com, which was tiny at the time
back in twenty ten to you know, twenty fourteen when
I was there and everything was in Bentonville where obviously,
you know, the bulk of the sales were actually happening.
So it was this incredible disconnector was all these you know,

(21:24):
kind of fefdoms and you know, turf fights and all
that kind of stuff. But fast forward, has this really
been settled? And now because they've seen the rise and
the power of retail media, have all these folks realized that, wow,
this is a brand new revenue stream. And when Amazon
overnight became this ginormous advertising juggernaut and they were making

(21:46):
so much money through advertising, that just opened the floodgatese
not just for retailers, the targets and the Walmarts, but
now you have everyone from like United Airlines and certainly
all these other folks that are effectively trying to get
into this type of business where they're standing up an
ad business.

Speaker 1 (22:02):
Excellent point.

Speaker 5 (22:04):
I think the challenges is that there's a proliferation of
new channels to invest your dollars, but the amount of
dollars isn't getting larger, and so it's actually really hard
for these new edities get their footing. If you survey
the majority of the top one thousand mass consumer product companies,
all of their channel investment looks exactly the same. So

(22:26):
it's Amazon, Target, Walmart, throwing Instacart, it's meta TikTok, Google,
and then debatable these days, Pinterest or Snap, depending on
which way you want your CPM to fly.

Speaker 4 (22:39):
That's like ninety percent of the mix.

Speaker 3 (22:41):
Now, you haven't mentioned any traditional media, which is super interesting.

Speaker 5 (22:44):
Oh I'm sorry, I should say the trade desk, which
is an amalgamation now of programmatics, TV and retail media.

Speaker 1 (22:51):
That's funny that you answered, Stevens traditional media with a
digital broker, basically.

Speaker 6 (22:58):
A digital broker that's running most of your ATV in
the first place. But I think Rachel's point is well
taken in a number of ways. But think about it
this way, like we've basically been expanding the number of
walled gardens we're creating where the bulk of the money
is going. So everybody was so concerned about, you know,
the artist formerly known as cookie list Internet that never

(23:19):
obviously happened.

Speaker 4 (23:20):
These are still being deprecated. Let's get this.

Speaker 6 (23:23):
Yes, the demise of the cookie has been highly exaggerated.

Speaker 4 (23:27):
How about that?

Speaker 6 (23:28):
Can we say that because well.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
Did Google just do it about face?

Speaker 6 (23:32):
Well exactly, That's why I'm saying it's highly e graguated.
It's being deprecated, not to the degree that it was
originally intended, but point being, everybody was sitting here saying,
oh my gosh, that's going to go away. What's my
next best thing? And so retail media became a very good,
not just alternative, but to Rachel's point, you get such
incredibly rich data about your shoppers. So you can buy

(23:53):
media on connected TV or programmatically based on that same
retail media data.

Speaker 3 (23:59):
So, but is that data going back to the CpG,
to the actual client, because I think that is the
biggest concern that you're now creating new walled gardens, and like.

Speaker 2 (24:09):
What are the CpG folks going to do?

Speaker 3 (24:10):
Because now you know, are the retail media networks basically
double dipping, like you need to buy the end cap still, Rachel,
but now you also have to buy you know, my
Walmart Connect, our Target or Roundel or whatever it is.

Speaker 6 (24:20):
Oh yeah, they're still trade.

Speaker 5 (24:21):
You're quite truple dipping, right Like Walmart Connect is making
money hand over fist. Yes, the problem is now is
I mean, everyone knows they're being duped, but they're handcuffed
because the retailers are their distribution channels. That's right, And
so until regulation comes in, it's the gold rush right now.

Speaker 1 (24:40):
Well, let me flip this a little and this might
even be a little controversial, So I'm curious for your
take because from a CMO standpoint, when we're talking about
data and privacy and how much it is, one of
the holy grails we've been all asked to chase, and
I've been right there chasing it, but also sort of
feeling like how real is This holy grail is the

(25:03):
personalization And I've come to sort of despise the word
a little bit in marketing because I think it's one
of those words where everyone has a different picture in
their head of what that is. And I do mean
a CEO, a CFO or versus a marketer. And I
was having this really interesting conversation with a big industry
player earlier this week who said something I found pretty stunning,

(25:25):
which was the whole personalization total one to one marketing
idea and will never be real. And I had never
heard someone say it that way. We've all just been
and you said gold rush. So I'm certainly not suggesting
that as a general direction. It's not stemian and working
really hard to go after that in my corporate roles.

(25:46):
But I don't know. I felt really provoked in a
good way by that thought. And I'm curious knowing that
so much of what you do in commerce is dealing
with maximizing the data around customers to try to get
bigger impact. What do you think was that a bit
of a over sell, over promise? Real, not real.

Speaker 5 (26:05):
I'm mainly in agreement with whoever said that to you.
So what's happened in the last five years is everyone's
realized that this pipe dream of one to one marketing,
of collecting all consumer data. First of all, it's not profitable.
You can't do that in a profitable manner, and so
if you are going to do it, you need your

(26:26):
average ordered value to be very high, like we're talking
about like one thousand dollars plus if you really want
to make this work. The second part is is that
none of these platforms want to play nice with each other.
Technically it's possible, but from a commercial standpoint.

Speaker 3 (26:41):
I mean platform You mean like Meta and Google and TikTok, right.

Speaker 5 (26:44):
Yeah, like the trade desk and Walmart Connect and Meta
and Google and Chrome and iOS like everyone is competing
for the same level of market share, and so it
actually doesn't work as well. So let's just take live
ramp and Stephen, you know this world very well, right,

(27:04):
because you obviously came from an identity partner, right. So
take someone like live ramp, where the majority of people
I would say at least fifty percent of the industry
has chosen that that's going to be their identity stack.
And now let's take someone like a Circana that owns
seventy five percent of club store loyalty data. Getting a
twenty percent match rate is considered good. So wait, what

(27:27):
that means eighty percent of the things that you're getting
back is inaccurate, and we should be going up to
twenty percent. And so I share all of this because
there's this shift that's happening in the industry and it's
not new, it's actually old. We are moving away from
deterministic one to one attribution in marketing and we're moving
towards probabilistic, which is the way that marketing has typically

(27:50):
always worked at an audience cohort level, and it's the
way that medium mix modeling has worked.

Speaker 3 (27:54):
This is crazy because this is so again back to
the future. It is because this is literally what we're
doing at Data Logics a decade ago when they had
actually first party purchase data for CpG and for retail
and automotive. But I do want to challenge this, and
I'm so curious, you know, Rachel and Sarah, like you know,
there is a school of thought thing that the current
way that you're doing personalization is probably not feasible, and

(28:19):
that's why it might you know, swing back to probabilistic.
But when you really think about the advent of AI,
and of course we can't have a pot if I'll
talk about AI, but like it's real, right, and when
you think about agentic AI, like having agents and understanding
that you are now going to have every single brand,
every single consumer will have an agent on their behalf

(28:43):
doing all these things, either ordering, you know, giving, you know, hey,
I want to order this thing on Patagonia for me,
I want to size you know large, I want it
in red, and you know, ship it, use this credit
card like all that stuff. They will have your profile
and they will be able to do that on your behalf.
There is going to be this incredible collapse between sales

(29:05):
and marketing. Where are you believe marketing kind of goes
away because everything is going to be a personalized direct sale.
Do you subscribe to that kind of future? Again, not tomorrow,
but that is what I believe, and I think a
lot of other smart folks believe is going to be
the future for commerce.

Speaker 6 (29:20):
No, I don't believe that.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
Okay, I love the sharpness of that answer. Do elaborate.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
Exactly. Come on, bring it on, Sarah.

Speaker 1 (29:29):
Let's go. I just love No, let's hear it.

Speaker 6 (29:33):
If we're not going to be controversial, then what the
hell's the point right right? Listen, I say this running
a commerce data company, So let me just put that
out there. But I'm sorry, the importance of brand building
cannot be underscored because then what happens is if you're
only looking at that conversion level and you're not actually
thinking about what makes people desire brands, then basically we're
turning into I'll tell you a story. So a couple

(29:55):
of years ago, I was in Cuba on vacation Guba
in Cuba, so I was in Kuba, and one of
the things that I really really want to do that
I love doing wherever I go for people who know
me well, is go to the supermarket. I love walking
the aisle sid to too.

Speaker 1 (30:11):
Love that.

Speaker 6 (30:12):
I love it. And you know, being kosher, being able
to find something unique that actually is kosher is a
whole other thing. Well, I'm sure not in Cuba, but
it was just I wanted to understand how it worked
in it in a communist market. And I'll explain why
why this is important. First, I'm told you not allowed
to unless you're a citizen, and you have an actual
citizen card. You actually can't get into the store anyway.
I got smuggled into the supermarket. Conversation for another time,

(30:34):
and I go into the supermarket and everything is the
same brand. There's only one brand in the entire country.
And it's like the equivalent of watching Looney Tunes and
seeing Acme, everything is the same brand with the exception
of two categories, which is rum and cigars because that's
what they make in Cuba. But other than that, that
was it. And so you want tuna, you get that

(30:56):
brand's tuna. It doesn't matter. Brands cannot proliferate and we
can not have a stratum of price flexibility or anything
without brand building and brand development. Otherwise, what's going to
make somebody choose one over another? How you do you
evaluate value? I remember Clive Cercin, who at the time

(31:17):
was a chief growth officer at Kellogg, said, brand value
to me is when somebody is willing to take another
dollar out of their wallet to spend for my brain.

Speaker 3 (31:25):
But are we conflating these two things? Because I agree
with everything you say about brand I'm just talking about
the actual execution, the way that agents are going to
proliferate and just truly dominate all these interactions. And again,
you're still going to have brands. I mean, people are
still going to say, hey, I want Patagonia. Just all
the action and the personalization, which is kind of coming
full circle. I think that the personalization is going to

(31:47):
be incredible. It's going to be totally the way that
you want to buy. They're going to understand all the
things that you like. I just think that we're almost
being naive if we don't think that AA is going
to transform the commerce experience.

Speaker 6 (31:57):
If the question is is AI going to transform the
common experience? Answers yes, of course, And I'm not being
flippanted about it, like that's a big focus of where
Tero is going in many other in the space. However,
does it all kind of get mapped to a sale
as linearly as was previously discussed. That's where I'm saying no,

(32:17):
because that would take us back to the same very
exhausting debate of if I can't measure the ROI of
my billboards, why the hell am I ever buying one?

Speaker 2 (32:26):
Right, Rachel, what do you see at micmac right?

Speaker 4 (32:28):
I think it's a blend of both of you.

Speaker 5 (32:30):
AI is already disrupting the commerce experience, like all technology
companies were all adopted AI. First place we adopted it
was really on the engineering side to reduce human work.
We were able to reduce our offshore engineering resources by
eighty percent. So any sort of like routine engineering task,
which in the line of work that Sarah and I

(32:52):
do there's a lot because we have thousands of retailers
and millions of SKUs and we're essentially mapping product metada
to retailer data. All of that now has been automated. Wow,
it's huge cost savings and it also time to value
for our customers.

Speaker 4 (33:08):
So that's just.

Speaker 5 (33:09):
One example, and then I think there's there's a whole
s of companies that are obviously also innovating on the
creative GENAI side. But I think it goes back to
some of the similar challenges of one to one attribution.
At the end of the day, this is commerce, this
is capitalism, and companies are competitive, and not everything is
going to be seamless because everyone's trying to make a buck.

Speaker 4 (33:30):
So I think that's just sort of the dance.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
Well, and that's your point about it should be seamless
or we believe that's the holy grail, that it's seamless,
and then you find out those two companies can only
match to twenty percent and that's the reality. And yet
I think you still have this. I don't know it's
like a panacea. Just get all my marketing to be
one to one, get it all be personalized, and you know,
speaking from a CMO position. I think it's it's interesting

(33:54):
to maybe reset the narrative around that a little. But okay,
so we've been talking personallyation, can we get personal for
a second with you too?

Speaker 2 (34:04):
Nice?

Speaker 6 (34:05):
Well, excellent segue, excellent.

Speaker 1 (34:07):
Thank you, thank you, And this is near and dear
to my heart. Steve and I get personal and topics
that are important to us in terms of our ethnicity,
our gender. You are two women CEOs in tech?

Speaker 2 (34:20):
What really?

Speaker 1 (34:21):
What surprise?

Speaker 6 (34:23):
I don't see gender you know what.

Speaker 1 (34:25):
I would love to say it doesn't matter, I would,
but it does still, And that's why I want to
talk about it, because.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
You're I thought they were just bad bosses.

Speaker 1 (34:34):
More they are. They are. And I always feel a
little funny when I put, you know, a gender modifier
on it, because you shouldn't be about you being women CEOs. Obviously,
it's just about your badass CEO executives. So let's just
agree for the sake of my question that we know that.
But you're also a minority. We are a minority being
women leaders and especially in tech, and I would love

(34:56):
for you to share a little on that, like what
has that really been like for you and how has
it changed, not changed. I mean anything that you want
to share on that, I think a lot of people
would be very interested.

Speaker 3 (35:09):
Right, you want to go first, I have raised venture
capital as a female CEO.

Speaker 5 (35:16):
Unconscious bias is one hundred percent there. Yeah, the way
that I see it is. And Steven, I'm sorry if
this is offensive, but if I was a dude, my
company would be a valued at a billion dollars, would
be unicorn status.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
But that is it's offensive that that is a fact.

Speaker 5 (35:33):
I'm not off, but that is not my life story. Right,
I'm proud of who I am. I'm a female, gay
Jewish founder. There's not many of us out there.

Speaker 3 (35:44):
That's a triple threat, isn't it.

Speaker 5 (35:47):
It absolutely is also a disadvantage and there's nothing that
I can do about.

Speaker 3 (35:51):
It a real talk, you really feel like it was
a disadvantage when you're raising capital when you're building the company, because.

Speaker 4 (35:55):
I know it is, No, I know it is.

Speaker 1 (35:57):
Yeah, that's why we need to put it on the
table because it is and it shouldn't be.

Speaker 4 (36:02):
Yeah, Listen, I'm not invited on the ski helicopter trips,
or the golf outings or like just all the things
that happened in more closed door casual environments, and that's
where deals were made.

Speaker 6 (36:13):
Rachel, There's another part to this, which is also your
you're under forty. I'm saying this because I'm turning fifty
next week. But more along the lines.

Speaker 2 (36:20):
Up she basically has the egot. Is what you're saying, sir.

Speaker 3 (36:22):
She all.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
She's got the e.

Speaker 6 (36:25):
Gotta disadvantages, yay. I remember when I became the CEO
of three sixty. I I was in my early thirties.
I think I don't remember. It was too long ago,
and now I'm too old to remember anything. But at
that time, I remember I would go to meetings. I
would go to meetings with clients or prospects, and they
would think that I was the account manager. I would

(36:46):
introduce myself and say, you know, I am Sarah. I'm
not gonna be like an asshole and just be like, yeah,
I'm the fucking CEO. But there became a couple of
points where I had to actually either bring a business
card with me or something to say you shouldn't have
to wait for me to speak for you to realize
that I actually am in a position of a Marty show.

Speaker 3 (37:03):
Respect regardless of you know who, they are their title,
their station in life.

Speaker 2 (37:07):
It's an issue.

Speaker 6 (37:08):
Yeah, So like I thought it was a thing when
I was more senior earlier in my career, and I
wasn't no matter how much I could command a room,
I was young and I looked young, and it was
harder to command that instinctively. You have to actually go
ahead and try to earn it, but you're operating from
a position of disadvantage. I don't know, Rachel, maybe that

(37:30):
didn't happen to you, but it happened to me.

Speaker 5 (37:31):
Each for me has played a different role in my
company building. I actually think it's more relevant to me
now than it ever has been because as my company
is scaled and I brought an in more experienced executive leaders,
I have experienced it in those settings. Yeah, I don't
think a lot of people are comfortable reporting into a
young woman, and there's unfortunately nothing I could change about that.

Speaker 3 (37:54):
And also a lot of the vcs, you know, let's
be honest, they'd never been operators. You also have been
an operator a practice. I mean, all of us are operators,
which is I think part of you know why we
all connect on a deeper level. But you probably knew
more about e commerce, social you know, everything that was
happening because you were actually doing the work, Rachel, You
actually were the one buying either Facebook ads back in

(38:15):
the day at gap or whatever it is.

Speaker 2 (38:16):
You know.

Speaker 3 (38:17):
You know I remember us talking about product listing pages
and you know, like, no one's going through the front
door over website. They're going through the PA right like.
You know, it's just very interesting how you were able
to kind of talk about the nuts and bolts and
the vcs that were, you know, probably more interested in
the story.

Speaker 2 (38:32):
And to your point, the dude you.

Speaker 3 (38:34):
Know that maybe went to the same school, you know,
they probably weren't interested in those kind of mechanics.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
Yeah, but look at you now, But look at you now.

Speaker 1 (38:42):
Well we've been saying back to the future in a
couple of contexts on this conversation, and it is a
little bit frustrating that this is not a new conversation
and that it hasn't changed. But I always still feel optimistic.

Speaker 6 (38:56):
I think it's changed.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
Good because I was going to say, look at the
two of you to me, you demonstrate the change.

Speaker 6 (39:02):
That's very generous. I think you, as well as well
as many others, I do think there's a generational shift
that happened maybe a few years ahead of me, admittedly,
But there were times, I would say, in the beginning
of my career where there were not women lifting up
other women. And so if you were a woman and
you've got yourself a sick job, they were like, there's

(39:23):
only room for one of us, bitch, So whatevs. You know,
such that.

Speaker 3 (39:27):
One crumb at the table, right right, It's so funny.
It doesn't matter, Sarah. It could be for women, it
could be for black, it could be for Latino. It's
always that, oh, there's only one crumb, and that's for me,
not for you.

Speaker 6 (39:37):
Yeah. And of course what that creates is it becomes
this horrible self fulfilling prophecy of tokenism and all that
other crap. But I do believe that over the past
i would say, ten fifteen years, that has changed because
whatever your diverse background is, there is a mindset of
paying a power. There is a mindset of mentorship. There
is a mindset of I'm going to bring you up

(39:58):
with me. I'm going to bring you to my next meeting.
And this extends very much to you, Steve, and I
am going to be a sponsor for somebody else. You know,
the fact that you are so prominent, for example, and
like things like she runs it is a representation of
that cultural shift that has happened over the past ten
to fifteen years. So I'm very hopeful and optimistic. Do

(40:18):
these things still exist? Are these still problems? One hundred percent?
By the way, this is like the biggest first world
problem kind of bs. But I was denied being a
juror in can because I won't work on the Sabbath,
and literally they're like, well, why can't you? And I'm like, well,
I you know, that's like my thing. They're like, okay,
well you can't judge. I'm like, can we make some
sort of accommodation? Can we make this work? And they're

(40:39):
like no. I'm like, okay, well that's okay. So I'll
never be a cam lines er. By the way, just
time with me, You'll be okay. I think I think
it'll be fine. I think it'm gonna be fine.

Speaker 3 (40:48):
But you think about the progress, and you know, whether
it's both of you as CEOs, both of you running companies,
you know, Rachel raising, you know venture capital going through
that whole process, which is not for the fan of heart.
You know, building a company from scratch. I do think
there's one kind of area that really does need to
progress which really hasn't, which is at the board level.
And you know, Rachel, you're the CEO and you have

(41:10):
a board you know, certainly different as a venture backed company.
But you know, Sarah, you're now on the board of
you know, Campbell's Douw company. And again won't ask any
confidential any questions or anything like that. You can't disclose
because you know you have a fiduciary obligation to the company.
But you know, just when you think about governance and
when you think about where corporate boards are, the lack
of you know, kind of representation on boards, and you know,

(41:31):
also the lack of diversity when I think about the
skill sets, you know, the lack of marketers on boards.
Can just talk a little bit about that preach because
it is so shocking. I think Spencer Stewart recently came
out for study. I was at a meeting with them
a couple of months ago, and they produced the brand
new study talking about how they are now kind of
going back to the mean, how they really just want

(41:53):
CEOs and CFOs that have been on other corporate boards
to be new board members, and it basically just feels
like they're just recycling the same kind of cast of
characters always on these corporate boards.

Speaker 6 (42:03):
There's a lot to unpack there, and I'm sure we
only have time for a little bit here. But there's
the how do you make it onto your first board,
which is always the hardest, just like how do you
get your first job out of college?

Speaker 3 (42:13):
The first public company board, which is different from a
private company or a nonprofit.

Speaker 6 (42:16):
Well, definitely different from a nonprofit, not as different from
private depends on that, but that's like, let's do another
podcast on that one. But the idea of how do
you get on your first and then how do you
shake the trees to change the skills matrix? That's the
big onlock is what are the requirements that a board
needs today and how has that changed over time? And

(42:37):
how do you make sure that you're being fair and
balancing your composition of what needs to be thrown a board?
I mean, i am this is public information. I'm on
the governance committee at Campbell's on the board five and
a half years. I've done the rotation of all the committees.
I've been on NOMENNGEV though for I think at least
five years now, and that's something that we're constantly evaluating.

Speaker 3 (42:57):
That would be Nominations and Governance commit Yes.

Speaker 6 (43:00):
Thank you, the Nominations and Governance Committee, And that has
a lot of components to it, but one of that
is board composition and the skills matrix and what needs
to be true. I do believe that what needs to
be true is changing. And I'm not just talking about cmos.
Think about the biggest threats to companies these days, combination,
AI cyber. A couple of years ago, the big thing
was like we meet people with supply chain, but the

(43:21):
difference between what is a fad and now I'm not
saying that supply chain isn't a fad. I'm saying that
was a massive crisis. But knowing what needs to be
true within a board and then making sure that you're
being reflective of it. This starts with the recruiters. This
absolutely has to start with the recruiters, because when the
recruiters bring forth the right kind of talent and explain

(43:43):
the contextualization, that's where it's going. So we have to
turn to the Hydricks, the Spencers, the Russell Reynolds, the
corn ferries and say, guys or gals, should we be
so lucky? What should we be looking at when you
bring us potential board members, when you look at our
current skills matrix. I feel very blessed on the Campbell's board,

(44:04):
not just that I have the honor of being able
to serve, but the fact that I do feel like
our skills matrix is incredibly rich, robust and diverse, with
acting with prior, with different skills, with different backgrounds, with
different context. It is not a group think of the environment, Ursa.

Speaker 3 (44:21):
This is something where you know, we've been working on
something around, you know, kind of boards that this is
definitely going to be another pod.

Speaker 2 (44:26):
We have to have Sarah back for them.

Speaker 1 (44:28):
Marsa, Well, that sounds great. Let's take a little break
and when we come back, we are going to ask
Sarah and Rachel to play Cooler Cringe with us.

Speaker 3 (44:43):
And we are back and we are ready to play
cool or Cringe with Rachel and Sarah.

Speaker 1 (44:48):
All right, Marissa, well, this is a little bit of
cooler cringe the Commerce edition appropriately enough, so you guys
are gonna kind of fire away with us. All right, First,
one cool or cringe using a voice assistant like Alexa
to do your shopping cool.

Speaker 6 (45:05):
Okay, Sarah cool?

Speaker 2 (45:07):
Cool?

Speaker 3 (45:07):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (45:08):
All right, any elaboration there or just say it's cool.

Speaker 4 (45:11):
I always find that people are advanced when they do that.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
I don't do it either, to be honest. So I
don't know. All right, let's hit the next one.

Speaker 2 (45:19):
Core cringe in store pick up lockers.

Speaker 3 (45:22):
I mean, does anyone really use those things? Cool grint,
conceptually cool, execution wise cringe?

Speaker 6 (45:29):
Yeah? I mean my kids both live in Manhattan, and
those lockers prevent people from actually like stealing the shit
that gets thrown into your general vicinity of some common
area in an apartment building. So I think it has
applicability in certain environments, but you're dealing with it in
like the suburbs, I think it's freaking that's cringe. So
situationally cool situations cringe.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
So we have to geo fence the lockers.

Speaker 6 (45:52):
Got it interesting?

Speaker 1 (45:54):
No, we have to g or fence the cooler cringe
of it.

Speaker 5 (45:56):
I was just thinking, I don't think i've ever seen
one human open a lot honey, core use of space.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
We saw them work in one of my past retail lives,
but I don't know. I kind of I'm on the fence,
the cooler cringe locker fence there. But okay, so let's
do a slightly more gen zish cooler cringe in the
commerce world unboxing videos, YouTube TikTok, wherever I would have said,
O G so og cool. Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 6 (46:25):
I still think cool too. That's probably like ten years
old by now, right.

Speaker 1 (46:28):
Oh it's not new. Yeah, but I think the ubiquity
with you know, influencers has made it feel like a
true part of how we get influenced to shop, certainly
younger generations. Would you agree?

Speaker 6 (46:40):
I would say the word influencer is cringe to me.
Not that you asked.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
I take that.

Speaker 3 (46:45):
Creators sounds so much cooler, Yes, core cringe. What I
used to think was, you know, kind of fast fashion
of the Tzaras of the world, the h and ms.
But I guess, you know, cool cringe. You know, Shean and.

Speaker 6 (46:56):
Timu cringe, hard cringe.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
Drawing the planet de rain the planet.

Speaker 3 (47:02):
Okay, that's that's one reason. But obviously lots of people
seem to love it. Is it the future of commerce?

Speaker 4 (47:06):
You can't beat those price points, It comes at a cost.

Speaker 6 (47:09):
There's no chance that is treating people kosher if you will.
I'm a hard print on that one.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
I just read an article this morning that it was
exposed and that the average cost of goods of making
I guess it was a Christian Do your Bag is
something like fifty seven dollars and retails for about twenty
two hundred. So the question is are they the worst
of the worst, the Sans and Timus, or are they
just more exposed to the practices that brands that even

(47:38):
charge more and shavings onto the consumer. I mean, it's
an interesting question.

Speaker 6 (47:43):
That is a question of current sens right, what is
something worth paying? And that goes back to the importance
of brands and all that other stuff. Buy trket on our.

Speaker 2 (47:55):
Clame me?

Speaker 1 (47:57):
Okay, Well, since we just talked, she and I feel
like we can't do a commerce edition without talking about
the behemoth of all Amazon. So it was last month
Amazon Prime Day. Mutual friends, who are there? What do
you think?

Speaker 4 (48:12):
Cooler?

Speaker 1 (48:12):
Cringe? Execution of Amazon Prime Day? Cool?

Speaker 6 (48:15):
Cool?

Speaker 1 (48:16):
All right?

Speaker 3 (48:16):
Like we need another fabricated holiday to spend more? Why
I wait for Black Friday? Does create your own day?

Speaker 2 (48:22):
Right?

Speaker 6 (48:22):
I think it's a win win. A lot of the
things that get sold are excess merchandise. It's basically it's
an excuse to have a clearance event. It's a great opportunity,
consumers win.

Speaker 3 (48:32):
A great branding because it's not a clearance event. Right,
it's Amazon Prime Day exactly.

Speaker 1 (48:37):
You don't want to know what's good marketing. And I
told this to my friend, who is an executive at
Amazon works on the prime business. Our next door little
twin boy neighbors who are seven, said to my daughter
the day before Prime Day, she was babysitting for them,
She said, well, we can't do a lemonade stand tomorrow
because everyone will be inside shopping because it's Amazon Prime Day.

(48:58):
And I was like, God, that is cultural impact. That
is insane. Seven.

Speaker 3 (49:05):
That is either Christmas or Hanuka in July.

Speaker 1 (49:09):
That is currency to your point. All right, Well, on
that note, Sarah and Rachel, we wanted to do this
for a while with you guys. We adore you both,
and I think the conversation could have kept going because
your insights on all this are so rich and so interesting.
So thanks for sharing a little bit of both your
individual and your brave commerce lenses with us. We really

(49:29):
appreciate it.

Speaker 6 (49:30):
Can't wait to have you back.

Speaker 3 (49:31):
Thanks, Thank you so much Sarah and Rachel, and for
everyone listening, please listen to Brave Commerce. It is awesome
and these two are just really at the forefront of commerce.
So thank you again for being on brand new.

Speaker 1 (49:43):
Now it's time for what's on your minds? And our
question this week comes from anonymous listener. We got this
in our inbox and interestingly came in a couple of
weeks ago, and as we were thinking about knowing we
wanted to have this conversation with Sarah and Rachel felt
like the perfect one safe. So here's the question for today,
and here we go. It's how real is personalization funny

(50:07):
in us? Since we talked about that earlier, how far
is it supposed to go in daily marketing? So yes,
we've touched on this a little earlier in the episode.
But I love that this was a listener question, So
let's just try to do our best to wrap up
the episode by answering that one directly.

Speaker 3 (50:23):
Look, the perfect time, the perfect place, the perfect message.
That is always the holy grail of personalization. I would argue,
to a certain extent, you do have that today on
the social platforms. Right when you think about Instagram, when
you think about TikTok, you really do see things that
are being personalized, given the interest graph that has been
created on those different types of platforms. But I really

(50:46):
do since sorning me, I think we haven't seen anything yet,
and you know, I know we got into a little
bit of a difference of opinion, but I do think
that I will radically change personalization, it will enable it,
and we haven't seen it. I mean right now, this
moment that we are in mursa like for me November
of twenty twenty two, when open AI's chat GPT came

(51:06):
on the scene. If the first true consumer application of AI,
that for me was the Netscape Navigator moment, when the
first Internet browser really hit the market in nineteen ninety five.
That is the equivalent. And when you think how early
in the game we are, we haven't seen anything yet.
And so to even think that we understand the way

(51:28):
personalization is going to happen in an AI era, when
you think about the ability for agents to go out
and literally transact on our behalf, that they're going to
be able to kind of order everything. They're going to
be able to say this is what I'm looking for,
and then other agents will interact. I mean, it's going
to just revolutionize commerce. And again, it's not going to
happen overnight, but it's going to happen exponentially, and I

(51:49):
don't think people understand how quickly that curve is going
to happen. I'm really excited about where personalization is going
to go in the AI era, but it is going
to be radically different from what we know today.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
Right to connect it to the AI era, I mean,
when I saw this question come in, I had to smile.
And you heard us talk about this earlier with Aaron
Rachel in terms of, you know, even how I pose
the question in terms of a conversation I have with
someone earlier this week about it was sort of not
what it's promised to be. And I feel like at
the essence of the question of how real is it now,

(52:20):
what you're bringing up is we don't even know how
real it's going to be. I think the problem, like
a lot of things in marketing right now, is we're
feeling and living in the divide between promise and expectation
and reality, and not everyone understands what the real nature
of that gap is, so we get caught up and
saying everything should be personalized, everything should be automated, everything

(52:40):
should be measurable, and it's not quite true. However, I
think if you just don't go to the most extreme
version of it and think about, like all good marketing
always was about targeting, and now this is just obviously
a much more robust version of that. The word personalization

(53:02):
for me has been the red herring actually, because it
really does imply a level of every user getting a
completely individualistic ad experience, which look, you mentioned, I mean meta,
if you're on Facebook or Instagram, we all do get
actually a totally personalized feed experience. So it's not like
personalization doesn't exist in media. As marketers, the idea that

(53:26):
every ad is going to be for an audience of
one feels like the right idea, the wrong literal execution
to chase. That's for now, for now.

Speaker 3 (53:37):
But maybe you have to think about personalization by channel,
because again, when you think about mass media, when you
think about broadcasts, yeah, you know, kind of learner TV
that's never going to really be personalized, right, But in streaming, again,
you might select the kind of things that you want
to see on Netflix or whatever it is, and you know,
maybe that starts to become personalized to you versus an
email marketing, you can actually have a first name, last

(53:58):
name field and that will be personalize. And again it's
a match email, but it's personalized with your name in it. Right,
So every channel has different elements of personalization, and you
need to have that because how else are you going
to engage? How else are you going to cut through
the clutter. And I think if a brand actually has
the permission, you know, I love Apple products, you know,
I'm a huge Arsenal fan. I love anything Arsenal. If

(54:19):
I get a message from Arsenal and it's personalized to
me based on my you know kind of commerce, you
know history or you know the players that I like
or whatever it is, I'm going to engage in that.
And I think, what is the personalization really trying to do.
It's a means to an end, right, You're trying to
really get greater engagement with that customer.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
Can you believe I didn't make a joke about you
using soccer as an example? They're football? Sorry, no, you're right,
and actually see But this is my point of the
word personalization is problematic because I think it paints a
picture in certain people's heads of degree of personalization. That's
maybe that's where we just need to match expectations. You're right,

(54:58):
I mean, I'm doing email marketing for years. It's personalized
with name that's easy. Or you know, dynamic images that
reflect what you've recently shop that's personalized. So it's there.
Back to our listeners question, how real is it in
daily marketing? That's the reality. There are lots of ways
to do it. Just I'd say, just don't follow it

(55:19):
off the cliff. I've felt the pressure to follow it
off the cliff where I think it was Sarah who
said this is actually not a profitable decision anymore. So,
like everything else, good judgment on top of big vision
for how to continue to evolve the craft of what
we do is the right way to approach.

Speaker 3 (55:40):
Well, it's been a full commerce filled episode. Thank you
so much for everyone listening. That's it for now, and
if you like what you're hearing, please subscribe to the
Brand New podcast and we are here to answer any
and all of your questions. Send us an email, let
us know at ideas at Brandshnew dot com, and obviously
look for us on all over our socials.

Speaker 1 (56:00):
Join us next time, and thanks for being with us
on brand new m