October 23, 2025 • 37 mins
Here’s a question: if you were invited to a dinner party, at an anonymous stranger’s house, where you also didn’t know who else would be there but you believed it was going to be interesting… would you go? Behavioral scientist Jon Levy sought to answer that question for himself by starting the legendary Influencers dinner parties back in 2010. Now, 400 dinners and about 4,000 affirmative RSVPs later (including at different points Steven and Marisa), Nobel Laureates to self-made CEOs to professional athletes have made burritos together, and Jon has become a master at decoding connection (essential for humans, and especially for marketers). In his new book,Team Intelligence, Jon is taking those insights to teams and leadership (hint: being a leader is a lot like being a host). And note there is through line of trust running through all of the above (at a time when trust in leadership is in short supply). Trust US when we say this is a great conversation that will make you think differently about - genuine - influence.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome back to Brand New from the iHeart
Podcast Network and Brand New Labs. I'm Marissa Thalberg.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
And I'm Steven wolf Banda. All right, Marissa again, traveling
every week, too much going on, It's just bananas, and
it's like, literally what mid October now? I mean, I
feel like we are just full steam ahead to the
end of the year.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
We definitely are being in retail. It's showtime now in
my business.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
This is your super Bowl, right.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
It really really is traveling a lot. But I'm really
glad that we were able to get back into the
saddle in a new season together. And I just was
thinking about the episode we just did with each other
last time and how much catching up we had to do.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
We've got a lot of good feedback on it, Marsa.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
It's really great to hear that.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
I think people want to hear this kind of conversation
around leadership. They want to understand into three v's I
think really resonute. So I'm excited to do more of
that because too, I feel like people are hungry for
that kind of real talk.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
That's great to hear that you've been hearing that. I
have two and I think there's always a little bit
of a theme that naturally emerges for us each time
we do a set of episodes, and I feel like
the theme of trust and leadership is going to be
a big one for us throughout the next few episodes.
And it's kind of actually a great setup to the
person we wanted to bring on as our guest today.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Do you agree?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I could not agree more. So let's get right to
our special guests.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Okay, joining us today is one of the most interesting
people both Steve and I have met, and we know
lots of interesting people, and now we get to introduce
him to you. Meet John Levy, who is a behavioral
scientist and author and honestly one of the more original
thinkers on what truly drives human connection and influence. He's
(01:53):
best known as the creator of the Influencers Dinner. Have
you heard of it? It's this legendary secret dining experience
where world class leaders a colectic group of people meet
as equals over home cook meal and hint, hint, we
each have been invited and done it, and so we'll
have to talk about that for sure. He's also the
(02:14):
author of the best selling book You're Invited Makes Sense.
The art and signs of connection, trust and belonging, and
has a brand new book out now called Team Intelligence
that explores how the best leaders unlock collective genius inside organizations.
A topic that couldn't be more relevant to anyone building brands, teams,
(02:34):
or communities today. A topic that's near and dear to
our hearts, as our listeners know. So John, welcome, thanks
for joining us.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Welcome to brand new John.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
Thanks for having me. This is such a treat, And
you know it's so nice about this. We aren't going
to be cooking terrible for you.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
So it's like, you know what, the food is not
that terrible, John, I feel you undersell it. You know
it's average, but it's not horrible.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
What I like to say is that I invite twelve
people at a time to cook burritos together, and Chipottle
makes a better burrito, like fact, And so considering how
successful all the people who come are, I just feel
like you could afford to eat it really fancy places
and it's fine, like nobody's ever gotten sick. It's just
not amazing.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
It's not really about the food, is it. Although as
a non cook I did find that very anxiety producing,
Like how will I show up cooking with all these
amazing people. It was a lot of fun, and I
think we want to get there into the genesis of that.
So let's just start go back a little tell us
about how your earliest fascination with human connection was born
(03:39):
and what led you to create the Influencers Dinner, because
it is such a wild, unique it's almost like taking
a trust fall too. You're going to this thing, like
I was like, is this legit? Oh yeah, oh my gosh,
it did.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
It puts people into a real vulnerable state. Yeah, so
it might help for your listeners for some content. The
way that dinner's designed is that twelve people are invited,
but it's completely anonymous. Nobody knows who's coming. They're not
even allowed to talk about what they do or give
their last name. So if you get an invitation and
you accept, all you're told is here are just some
(04:14):
basic rules, and you have to show up on time
or early at this address and we're really particular about that.
And so it already just feels kind of wild. People
are concerned that they're going to have their kidney stolen,
like the whole thing is just and so what got
me originally curious. I wish I could say that I was,
you know, inclined to being socially capable, but I was
(04:38):
so unpopular as a kid that eventually I became a
behavioral scientist to figure out how to make friends. It's
really one of those like revenge of the nerd kind
of situation.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
That sounds like some deep baggage there, John, Oh, yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
I mean we can unpack it here and hopefully it'll
be cheaper than there.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
I mean, it's the ultimate revenge of the nerds because
you've now broken bread with you know, kind of some
regular cool people like us to be debated.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
I mean, you guys are running great brand.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Like amazing no bel laureates he he.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
It was Olympians, like I couldn't believe when it was
revealed who I was sitting with, who some of those
people were.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
It was wild. So tell us more.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Yeah, we've had everybody from the Prime Minister of Belgium.
Was it to the guy who won a Grammy for
barking on who let the dogs out? To no be
laureates like Malala or doctor Brown Michael Brown who won
for discovering statns, which I think estimated at this point
(05:36):
probably saved over thirty million lives globally, Like just crazy, wow,
crazy accomplishments. I've hosted about four thousand people at over
four hundred and some odd dinners already. So it's been
a real journey and a real privilege frankly to eat
such bad food with such great people.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
But this is such the foresight around this influencer. I
mean you were kind of the original influencer before it
was a thing.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
Right, This was twenty ten. Instagram didn't even exist, yeah right,
and like Facebook was yeah something, but nobody called somebody
with a lot of followers on Facebook. I don't even
know if there was a follow option back then, right.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I'm so curious what made you call this the influencer
dinner and how did you start reaching out to people?
Because getting a random email saying, hey, come to this
dinner it is a little bit off putting and it's
kind of like a little bit sus right.
Speaker 4 (06:28):
Yeah, one hundred percent. So when I started this, I
was trying to understand what influences people's behavior, not how
do I influence you to buy, you know, like some
makeup or something like that, which is kind of what
brands are more concerned with now, and so I was
looking for people who had an ability to have an
influence through their thought leadership. Right, maybe they'd write books,
(06:51):
their professors, stuff like that. Position. So, Marissa, you lead
marketing at major brands. So because of that position, you
have the incredible ability and in fact mandate to influence
and previous success. So I would joke around that, like,
what was that guy from MySpace that everybody was Tom? Right,
everybody's friends with Tom on MySpace even though Tom hasn't
(07:13):
done anything since the fact that he invented MySpace was
a previous success that was big enough to shift society.
And so those are the kinds of things like you
may have won an Olympic medal, but it was nineteen
ninety two. That still counts. That was an incredible achievement.
And so those are kind of the characteristics. And then
to answer your question of how do you get started? Oddly,
(07:33):
this is so weird, Almost everybody's email addresses are publicly available.
So if you won a Nobel prize, almost every Nobel
laureate's email address is publicly available because they're academics, and
so you can just look for their scientific papers and
their email addresses are on them. Olympians also allow them
tend to become speakers and stuff, so you can just
(07:53):
go on through their websites, you would be shocked. And
then business executives, everybody's email address follows some standard pass
at a company, as all of you know that get
way too much spam. So the bigger issue is to
write emails that don't hit spam blockers, frankly.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
And so it just sounds like some good old hard work,
some good slew thing.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
But again but the oh no, no, no, nobody should
be doing hard work. Let's be very clear about this.
In today's era where you can have AI create lists
for you, and back then that was in an option,
but we hired people from upwork who were experts at
researching potential guests and finding their email addresses. And we
just have people who work for us full time finding
(08:35):
person after person.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Sure, but that's today. I mean the way you started
this thing, because again it's been a movement and I
want to get to your new book, but like I
wanted you to touch on your first book because this
whole idea of understanding this human connection, which I think
really drives a lot of what is at our core
values for Marisa and I just understanding why were you
(08:56):
so curious about human connection other than you know, some
baggage from high school. But really, what did you learn
because you share a little bit of this at the dinners, Yeah,
but like, what was the biggest kind of aha moment
for you? Given all the folks that you've done this.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
Probably the biggest insight is that And this was really
unexpected for me because I was in my late twenties
early thirties when I started this, and I was you know,
frankly wildly insecure, under employed, I was overweight, I was broke,
like I felt like I didn't have much going for me.
And I would meet all these people who had achieved
(09:32):
the greatest achievements in their industry, architects who had the
Fitzker Award and Olympians and CEOs and all that, and
what shocked me was that no matter how successful people were,
nobody felt like they fit in. And it became very
clear that what people want more than anything is a
feeling of belonging. And you know, we talk about Maslow's
(09:54):
higher order of needs, like oh, we need water and
shelter and all these things, but then here's a weird thing.
People will give those things up in order to belong
People will starve themselves in order for hopes of belonging.
People leave their homes into uncertainty in order to feel
that they belong. And some social scientists argue that the
(10:17):
base characteristic of human beings is actually belonging, and everything
else build on top of that. And so if you're
a CEO and you've had three great quarters, fantastic, but
you know, if your next two aren't also great, you're out.
If you're an Olympic swimmer, you may be won by
three one hundredths of a second and you might have
the gold right now, but at the next Olympics you
(10:39):
might be aged out and not even make the team.
And so everybody feels that, yeah, they've achieved something, but
that doesn't mean they get to hold on to their status.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
It's interesting because I know, going to that it was
such a leap of faith, and you're right, it goes
against everything your parents, and it's taught you, like, don't
just go to places that are unknown with strangers. And
suddenly you're just showing up at this apartment and you
don't know what to expect, and except that you know
everyone's there for a reason, and a good reason, so
you're sort of taking the trust fall for that reason.
(11:14):
But the fact that you so purposely insist, that you
so purposefully insist that no one identify themselves by what
they do, I think is such a commentary on frankly,
how we function in societies. We often go right to
our identity through what we do and our careers and
(11:35):
just kind of knowing everyone there is worth getting to
know on some level without having to make the conversation
about your career, your job, what you do, your identity
was actually a really good forced exercise. How purposeful was
that for you then? And does it feel like it's
only become more necessary to do it less? How has
(11:56):
that dynamic changed as this whole constant struct has grown
and society has changed.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
It's always been part of the design, the anonymity factor,
and the reason is we wanted a universal equalizer among
the participants. We also wanted the experience of being uncomfortable together.
So there's this concept called the Ikea effect. In the
(12:24):
business world, we think that if I want to win
you over as a client, Stephen, I might take you
out for an expensive business dinner nobody likes those dinners.
They're awful and like, listen, sometimes you'll meet somebody charismatic,
sometimes you'll be seated next to the right person, but
mostly you're not. It's usually just like, what on earth
(12:47):
am I doing here? And couldn't I be at home
with my family or watching Netflix or relaxing or something right?
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Right?
Speaker 4 (12:56):
What actually works as the exact opposite. It's called the
Ikea effect. We care more about our Ikea furniture because
we have to assemble it. And so what we wanted
to do was get people into an experience where they
had a common enemy, which was time, and that common
(13:18):
enemy because they have too much to accomplish with so
little time. Then they have to then begin to rely
on each other and invest effort. And so suddenly what
happens is that in about forty five minutes, people feel
more connected to the guests that are there than many
of you feel with your teams after months of calls together.
(13:41):
And that's because everything we really do to build trust
in connection we do wronger backwards.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
But it's fascinating because it's such a forcing function to
really work with another human And you know, it's interesting.
I'm Dominican. I've lived kind of all over the world.
It's a very American thing. The first question that you
ask is, oh, what do you do like that doesn't
happen in Latin America, it doesn't happen in Europe. I'm
(14:08):
sure are other parts of the world that you've experienced.
And so when you have like folks that are coming
to your dinners that are international, how is the experience
for them, Because I'm sure it's a different vector to it.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
So it's interesting. I can't give you a clear answer,
but what I can share is that in general, the
higher the relationship to personal identity or job is, the
more you'll end up leading with it. So maybe you
work in let's say, a manufacturing facility and you assemble
(14:42):
some widget or whatever whatever it is, right, that might
not be the identity thing for you. It might be
the sports team in your church, And so you'll find
that depending on where people live and the culture, it's
just a different thing. It's not like one thing is
better than the other. It's like, oh, why do people
always ask me which church I go to? Or why
(15:03):
do people always ask me which sports team? I'm a
vanom I'm not a fan of any sports team. So
it would be very weird for me if somebody start
off a conversation with me about like, oh, how do
you feel about.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
We're more than happy to welcome you to Arsenal. You
could be an Arsenal fan.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
And once again we cannot get through an episode of
Brand New and Arsenal Reverence.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
On brand for Steven. But listen, it's about those.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
That's part of connection too, right, I mean fundamentally why
people connect over sports teams is a shared connection, right.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
But I'm so curious to that point. I mean when
you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs and you know,
for those that aren't as familiar, you know, kind of
that base level is you know, physiological, you know, water, food, sleep,
as you mentioned, John, But then the next one up
is safety, you know, your home. The next level up
is love and belonging, and then esteem, and then the
pinnacle is self actualization that you live into your highest potential.
(15:56):
Do you think it's actually flip?
Speaker 4 (15:58):
Actually, it turns out the law added a layer that
people don't know about. Oh really, after that, which was
like esthetics and things like that, it was about kind
of like this beauty and awe of reality kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Was that part of self actualization or it was like
above it.
Speaker 4 (16:14):
No, it was supposed to be I think an additional one.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
But my point is about belonging, right, I mean, I
totally subscribe to this idea that we are wired as
humans because we are social creatures, we need to have belonging.
And I'm so curious, do you feel like they have
it flipped?
Speaker 4 (16:31):
I think we need to take it even a step further.
It's not that we are social creatures and thereby need belonging.
It is that it is impossible for a mother who
recently delivered a child to survive, protect and feed herself
and that child. In nature, the mother can't do that
(16:54):
and collect enough calories, which means that it's not that
we're social creatures. It is that in order to survive
we as a species, we have to have mechanics in
place that allow us to interact, and we must depend
on each other, otherwise we are not fulfilling our genetic
obligation of reproduction. And in order to do that, we've
(17:17):
created a collection of systems. One is called trust, and
trust is nothing more than the willingness to be vulnerable.
So we at some point negotiated that Hey, I'm not
going to go through this long cognitive process to evaluate
if I should trust you. Instead, I'll collect a bunch
of signals and I'll have an emotional response and I'll
feel that as trust And in general it works. When
(17:40):
it doesn't, it's just terrible. So like a Burnie Madoff
would be an example. Right, in general, you're like, oh, bankers,
you know, like I can put my money in Chase,
I can put my money here, you know whatever, I'm fine,
And then there's a Bernie made Off that just completely
demolishes everything. The other mechanic that we ended up having
to include is that we need to.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Be in groups doublequick into that because obviously given where
we are with social media, obviously now going to an
AI world and it's going to even fragment people even more, Like,
how do you view this idea that we need to
be in groups when folks can't even go out leave
their home, you know, they don't know how to meet
people in real life? Like how do you see that?
Speaker 1 (18:21):
And I want to bridge that to teams, right because
groups are sometimes by choice, teams are often not certainly
in the professional right assignment. So i'd love to help
make that bridge for us. What does this mean for teams?
Speaker 4 (18:33):
So let's answer this in two parts. The first part
is what does it mean to society? Well, around nineteen fifty,
at least in Western society, we peaked from a social
connectivity standpoint, At least in the US, post war sentiment
was at the highest point. TV is invented, starts entering
the homes, and we see a massive decline in social engagement.
(18:57):
The number of social groups that people participate in, clubs,
organizations begin to decline dramatically. By nineteen eighty five, the
average American is down to only three friends besides family.
Two thousand and four, nineteen years later, we are down
to two. Now fifteen percent of all men have zero friends.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
It's an epithetic yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
And so you have to ask what's going on? And
then you turn to social media before we begin to
blame social media, which listen, I love blaming social media.
It's such a lovely scapegoat for everything. If there's something
wrong with this world, you just say social media and
people are like, yes, everybody agrees, right.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Everyone's still on it.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
It might take not our platform, it's somebody else's. It's
always been four tran or what like one of these
other ones. Right, But the point is before we blame
any of that, let's ask did social media exist between
nineteen eighty five and two thousand and four? And the
answer is not really Facebook. I think only started and
two thousand and three, two thousand four. What is probably
(20:03):
the biggest cause of decline is threefold one helicopter parenting.
Because when your parents are constantly all over you, you
do not develop your own social skills. When you are
assigned who you're going to hang out with on playdates
and you don't have to ask or arrange or play
stickball with the local kids in the neighborhood, you do
not learn social skills. So we see a massive decline
(20:25):
in social skills. Second, let me ask you a question, Stephen.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Where were you born Mount Vernon, New York?
Speaker 4 (20:32):
Fantastic? Where did you go to college?
Speaker 2 (20:34):
I went to Tof's University, which is where Medphah, Massachusetts or
Medford for the non mass people.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
And then where did you get your first job.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
In New York?
Speaker 4 (20:43):
Where?
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Like?
Speaker 2 (20:44):
What company?
Speaker 4 (20:44):
Which part of New York? It's a big state.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Oh, I was in Manhattan.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
Exactly. Every time you had a life moment you reset
all of your social ties. You grew up with a
whole group of kids, then you reset those social ties,
went off to college, met all these people, then reset
your social ties going to your very first job. If
every few years you're resetting your social ties, how are
(21:10):
you going to have friends? The great predictor of friendship
is simply how close your door is to the other
person's door. The first thing we have to understand is
that the more we have people move, the fewer friends
they're probably going to have. That's just the reality of it.
If we're then going to look at social media, I
(21:30):
would say that there's kind of two major issues there.
Issue Number one is it's not that you're on social media.
Social media is like alcohol. It's entertaining. Most people can
handle it, and that my theory is that there's a
small percentage of people who really can't. These are like
the alcoholics.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Right, Well, it does have addictive tendencies, right, So.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Sure, but listen, if you doom scroll for fifteen minutes
like you're going to be fine, Like your mental health
that you're going to be able to adjust?
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Is it?
Speaker 4 (22:00):
It's not going to probably take you from I apologize
for bringing this up, but it's not going to take
you from like happy to suicidal. It might bum you out, But.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
It depends on the age, right, I mean us as
adults we can do that. Maybe a fourteen year old
might not be developed enough to know the difference.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah, yes, well that's his point is most of us
can handle it, but not everyone, and that's what we
realize is a flaw in the system. Same with alcohol.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
I guess if you actually look at the stats the
does it have a negative impact in terms of happiness. Yes,
it's just not as dramatic as people keep talking about.
And the reason it probably is not doing that is
that there's two forms of social media. There are those
that are status based comparers and they're those that entertain us.
So if you go on to Reddit, you're probably entertained
(22:48):
for the most part. Now there's a lot of rage
content with the politics stuff, but you're probably more entertained.
If you go onto Instagram, you're probably more comparing yourself
and that makes you feel worse. Now when we talk
about the workplace, the workplace is one of the few
places that you are required to interact with people you
don't necessarily know very well. Now, there are a lot
(23:08):
of misnomers about the workplace or part of a family.
You got to like each other. None, that's true, Marissa.
When your parents maybe had a tough year, do they say, oh,
we're going to be downsizing or getting rid of one
of the siblings, Like, that's not a thing that you share.
And so let's be honest. It's more like being part
of a sports team. When you stop being useful to
(23:31):
the sports team, they'll trade you or they'll end your contract,
because the responsibility is to the team above the individuals.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
You play for the badge, as they say.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
Yeah, and if you're a professional, it means that your
badge will change. It's just part of the deal. Doesn't
matter how good you are. Lebron played for the Cavaliers,
he played for Lakers. He played right, and that's part
of the deal.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Okay, So then team really is the right word, whether
it's a sports team or a work team, and the
same rules apply. But take us now to some of
the big AHAs from the work you've done in researching
team intelligence. Because Steve and I are both leaders of teams,
we have a lot of people that are who are
listening or want to be and it's really hard to
(24:15):
sometimes figure out the secret sauce too.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
How people are paying the button.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Be honest, because it's great because of the people, and
sometimes it's great for every reason but the people. I
will say this about myself every time I've left somewhere
and maybe started to try to do something a little
more independently, I do miss the sense of.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Being on a team.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
I really enjoy that, even though it's messy and complicated
and frustrating and a big source as a leader of
the things you wind up dealing with it are hard,
but you know you're trying to get to this place
of both high performance but connection.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
And what's the answer if there is one.
Speaker 4 (24:57):
Let's separate two things out really.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Quick, making you separate things.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
I'm sorry, no, no, fine, It's just the problem is
that we tend to combine a lot of ideas in
corporate America, and then they get repeated over and over again,
and we think that they're associated when they're not necessarily
related to each other.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
All right, break it down for me.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
So we're going to break down leadership and teams because
they're actually very different. Leadership barely has anything to do
with other people, which is weird all. So, we're generally
taught that there are these essential skills to leadership, and
if you have them, then great you can be a leader.
Otherwise you need to go to like get a Harvard
MBA or mckinzi'll come in and consult with you and
(25:39):
help you figure out your team. You know, these skills
are lovely, but the truth is they're kind of useless,
and the evidence is that the most effective leaders in
our society don't have them. Elon Musk was not great
at creating psychological safety, building consensus among his people. Neither
Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, right, like, these are all nice.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
To have benevolent dictators, sir.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Yeah, benevolent.
Speaker 4 (26:01):
Well, we get debate that I wouldn't call it benevolent,
being a diypomatic for I. You know, when the things
said about Musca, I think was like I had the
option of being bored somewhere else or burnt out here.
I choose to be burnt out. Like people understand, the
defining characteristic of a leader is really simple. It's that
they have followers. That's it. Now, what causes us to
(26:23):
follow people is what's really important, And it's a weird
quirk of human behavior having to do with our relationship
to the future. So when you are we're in high
school on Sunday at six pm, you probably had the
Sunday scaries. You were free, but the future was anxiety ridden,
so you felt anxious. Now on Friday at one pm,
(26:44):
when you were stuck in class, you felt excited because
the future was freedom. And herein lies the weird thing.
We don't relate to the present, We relate to the future.
And the reason that we follow someone is quite simply
removing all morality and all the kind of bs that
people have placed on it. That those people make us
(27:04):
feel that they'll be a new and better future. That's it,
nothing else. You don't need to like them. You can
hate them and you will still follow. If you feel
the future will be better, you will ignore and forgive
their transgressions. You don't need to want to hang out
with them. They just need to make you feel that
the future is better. I want to emphasize two essential
things here. One is this does not make them qualified
(27:27):
for anything. You could have a bunch of idiots following
a moron.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
We're all holding back comments right.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Now, oh right, right right? I mean I got so
many comments.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
Everyone just fill in the blink.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
And the second thing is we need to now know
what causes that. And the answer of what triggers that
emotional response is that Stephen and Marissa, each of you
have a collection of super skills that are so profoundly
strong that when people interact with them, they go wow
with them in charge. I don't need to worry about that.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
That's it, But it sounds like it's deeply rooted in
I don't know if it's you know, wearing the brain,
the prefrontal cortex, or you know, some part of the
brain you know are our lizard brain, if you will,
that this has to do something with like fight or flight,
some way that we find safety in people that could
actually assure a better, safer future.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
I think we're taking it one step beyond. I think
we're adding something there. I'd say it might be safety,
but it also could be opportunity.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Right.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
It could be that the amigdala actually has nothing to
do with anything.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Right.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
I don't want to try to structure something from a
neurological standpoint, just so much so as you understand that
if somebody triggers that feeling, you'll follow that's it. Now
this only gets the crew together for the heist. For
the group to get away with the heist, we actually
have to look at the group dynamics and that I'll
give you like the three things that we discovered super fast.
(28:59):
The first is it's not IQ. It doesn't matter if
you have somebody super smart on the team. The second
is it doesn't matter the average IQ and you don't
even need to like each other. That is not a predictor.
The single greatest predictor was adding Marisa to the team,
not you, Steven, because it was the number of women
on the team. Boom.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
I believe it.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
That's a punchline.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
But I'm curious, is there is there like a high
R squared that connects you know, kind of women on
the team and what I have always referred to as
glue team members, like people that are the glue for
a team that really make the team worse.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
So the actual answer is that the reason that it
looks like it's women, it's not a chromosomal thing is
that women have higher emotional intelligence on average. There are
plenty of men with high emotional intelligence. There are plenty
of women with no favorite topic. Really, when you go
from like a single person activity to a group activity.
What you end up with is the need to coordinate
(29:53):
more than pure talent and emotional intelligence.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Lets you do that, all right?
Speaker 1 (29:58):
When we come back, we're going to play a speed
round with John of cool or cringe.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
All right, we're back with John Levy and we are
so thrilled to have you here, but we have to
play some cooler cringe John, So are you ready for
the lightning round?
Speaker 4 (30:20):
I am ready. Let's crush this all right, let's.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Do it first. One. Is it mandatory for team building
to have trust balls?
Speaker 4 (30:28):
Oh my god, the most cringey thing I have ever
come across. No, No, no, absolutely not. Basic rule of
team connection in the workplace. You do not need to
start talking about your personal lives. It is not a requirement.
Vulnerability at work looks more like, Hey, Marissa, I'm really
(30:49):
nervous for a big presentation to the board. Could you
take a look at my slides? Or Stephen, I don't
feel like I'm a great presenter. Would you watch me
present and give me feedback? That's the kind of vulnerability you.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Need to Well are you saying not mandatory? I guess
i'd debate that in my own experience as a leader,
because I think the older I've gotten in the further
the more vulnerable and sort of warts and all I've
allowed myself to be. And I feel like that has
fostered closeness.
Speaker 4 (31:20):
With absolutely I think. But let's not confuse not forced vulnerability. Yeah,
like me telling you as a group activity, we're going
to stare into each other's eyes.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
Cringe, cringe, Okay, we agree?
Speaker 2 (31:36):
All right?
Speaker 3 (31:36):
How about this?
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Since and I wanted to talk about this so much
more with Stephen was alluding to it when we talked
about the word influence obviously influncial so cool or cringe.
People who are professional aka on social media influencers, Where
does that sit for you?
Speaker 4 (31:53):
I think it's weird to call yourself an influencer. I
think that being a content creator, being a micromedia outlet
one hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
I have a profound respect for people who know how
to create content that consistently engages an audience. But referring
to myself as an influencer would be like referring to
myself as a genius, like look at me, I'm so smart? Right,
And hopefully we're seeing the word phase out.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
More and more. All right, so cool or cringe teams
that now have AI agents as part of their team.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
I think it's cool. Now. I want to explain the
role of a leader and anybody in the team is
to maximize how smart the team is, meaning it solves
problems quickly if you are adopting technology, regardless if it's
the right technology right now or not. I give respect
for the teams to try stuff out that's new. I
think that that's really great fair and sometimes it'll work
(32:49):
out great, sometimes it'll fail.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
All right, Well, end with the softball one. You're ready
cooler cringe curated networking events like you know, dinner party.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
Oh, so networking events are cringe curated. Intimate experiences are
super cool quick fact or study researchers at Columbia. I
think it was try to understand people's implicit association to networking,
like what's in the background of their head and the
feeling was needing to wash because they felt dirty.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
Now, if you're invited to an environment where you feel
like you're making friends, that doesn't exist because you don't
feel like you are using somebody, Yeah, transactionally and so yeah.
Gatherings that are intimate are curated, fantastic.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
I couldn't agree more. And it's actually one of my
pet peeves, right, Like, no one wants to be sold to,
but people want to buy this whole idea that business
has to be transactional. It's just I reject it so,
just vehemently. And it's hard for folks, right because they've
grown up in an era where it has to be
the sale, it has to be the transaction, and it's
just I don't think that's the way people want to
be anymore.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
I will say, as a marketer, I'm working so hard
on that, but it's hard, I really am.
Speaker 4 (33:58):
Can I say something disagree on one factor? I want
to be sold to. I want to be sold to,
though in a way that's benevolent.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Well that's the point, right, Like I think that's what
Stephen's saying is just don't make it feel so crass.
Speaker 4 (34:11):
Yeah, So, if you want the science of it, trust
is made of three things. It's made out of honesty
you're telling me the truth, Competence you can do the
job that's expected of you. And benevolence you have my
best interests at heart. If somebody who works for you
screws up in terms of competence. Like normally they're great
and they have a bad presentation. You don't say you're fired.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
That's weird, that's right.
Speaker 4 (34:31):
But if you find out they're lying to you, you're like, wait,
I can't trust you anymore. Honesty is valued more than competence.
But if Stephen says John, we're taking a walk and
he says, I forgot something at the office, and when
I get there, mercid, you're there with forty of my
closest friends and you scream surprise, happy birthday, it would
be weird if I said, Stephen, you just lied to me.
(34:52):
We can't do that's benevolence that thinks you did it
for benevolent reasons.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
That would be a good surprise. I probably do that
for each other, for you day.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
We will please. So we value benevolence above honesty and
honesty above competence. Every sale tends to focus on competence,
which is the least important factor of trust. What you
need to do is focus on benevolence and demonstrate honesty
and competence over time.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Well, we need a whole separate pod. John then to
talk about that with Silicon Valley and just like tech
companies in general, because all they want to do is
lead with competence and how great their speeds and feeds are.
But that's a different pod. But I do have to
ask as we kind of wrap up the insight behind
team intelligence, like you've obviously been doing all these dinners.
You wrote your first book, which was a national bestseller,
(35:38):
what really prompted you to do this new book? Because
everyone's talking about AI, but here you are talking about TI,
not the rapper, but team intelligence.
Speaker 4 (35:48):
So just to set the record stright, my first book
was about me getting drunk in Europe, so that one
did not hit the best seller list. It was called
The two Am Principle. You're Invited was a New York
Times Wall Street Journal bestseller, and.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
This new one.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
What prompted me is that the fact is, no matter
if technology is involved or not, our job is to
make the team as smart as possible. Now AI will
assist in that by unlocking very specific factors and team interaction,
but the goal is always the same, and if it's
if the smallest unit of effectiveness is team, then most
of the things we're actually going to be dealing with
(36:21):
are the human aspects, and so that's why I wrote this,
because there are people who understand software much better and
optimizations much better on all that. But my specialty is
the human side of stuff, and that's what I think
I can contribute to the conversation.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
And when does the book come out?
Speaker 4 (36:37):
It came out October seventh. It's already a national bestseller,
and hopefully by the time this airs it'll be a
New York Times bestseller as well.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Woo, we will manifest that the human side is a
piece of all this that we care deeply about, and
that's why we were so eager to have you on
to talk. And thanks for some really different insights around
leadership and connection.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
And John Levy, thanks for being here.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
This is a treat Thank you both.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Thanks so much, Chuck.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Well, that's it for now.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
Friends.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
We're going to close right there because we've had such
a juicy conversation today. If you like what you're hearing
from us, don't forget to subscribe and have any questions
or comments, just send them to us at ideas at
brandashnew dot com. We hope you'll join us again. See
you soon on brand New
Hello, and welcome back to Brand New from the iHeart
Podcast Network and Brand New Labs. I'm Marissa Thalberg.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
And I'm Steven wolf Banda. All right, Marissa again, traveling
every week, too much going on, It's just bananas, and
it's like, literally what mid October now? I mean, I
feel like we are just full steam ahead to the
end of the year.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
We definitely are being in retail. It's showtime now in
my business.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
This is your super Bowl, right.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
It really really is traveling a lot. But I'm really
glad that we were able to get back into the
saddle in a new season together. And I just was
thinking about the episode we just did with each other
last time and how much catching up we had to do.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
We've got a lot of good feedback on it, Marsa.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
It's really great to hear that.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
I think people want to hear this kind of conversation
around leadership. They want to understand into three v's I
think really resonute. So I'm excited to do more of
that because too, I feel like people are hungry for
that kind of real talk.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
That's great to hear that you've been hearing that. I
have two and I think there's always a little bit
of a theme that naturally emerges for us each time
we do a set of episodes, and I feel like
the theme of trust and leadership is going to be
a big one for us throughout the next few episodes.
And it's kind of actually a great setup to the
person we wanted to bring on as our guest today.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Do you agree?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I could not agree more. So let's get right to
our special guests.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Okay, joining us today is one of the most interesting
people both Steve and I have met, and we know
lots of interesting people, and now we get to introduce
him to you. Meet John Levy, who is a behavioral
scientist and author and honestly one of the more original
thinkers on what truly drives human connection and influence. He's
(01:53):
best known as the creator of the Influencers Dinner. Have
you heard of it? It's this legendary secret dining experience
where world class leaders a colectic group of people meet
as equals over home cook meal and hint, hint, we
each have been invited and done it, and so we'll
have to talk about that for sure. He's also the
(02:14):
author of the best selling book You're Invited Makes Sense.
The art and signs of connection, trust and belonging, and
has a brand new book out now called Team Intelligence
that explores how the best leaders unlock collective genius inside organizations.
A topic that couldn't be more relevant to anyone building brands, teams,
(02:34):
or communities today. A topic that's near and dear to
our hearts, as our listeners know. So John, welcome, thanks
for joining us.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Welcome to brand new John.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
Thanks for having me. This is such a treat, And
you know it's so nice about this. We aren't going
to be cooking terrible for you.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
So it's like, you know what, the food is not
that terrible, John, I feel you undersell it. You know
it's average, but it's not horrible.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
What I like to say is that I invite twelve
people at a time to cook burritos together, and Chipottle
makes a better burrito, like fact, And so considering how
successful all the people who come are, I just feel
like you could afford to eat it really fancy places
and it's fine, like nobody's ever gotten sick. It's just
not amazing.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
It's not really about the food, is it. Although as
a non cook I did find that very anxiety producing,
Like how will I show up cooking with all these
amazing people. It was a lot of fun, and I
think we want to get there into the genesis of that.
So let's just start go back a little tell us
about how your earliest fascination with human connection was born
(03:39):
and what led you to create the Influencers Dinner, because
it is such a wild, unique it's almost like taking
a trust fall too. You're going to this thing, like
I was like, is this legit? Oh yeah, oh my gosh,
it did.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
It puts people into a real vulnerable state. Yeah, so
it might help for your listeners for some content. The
way that dinner's designed is that twelve people are invited,
but it's completely anonymous. Nobody knows who's coming. They're not
even allowed to talk about what they do or give
their last name. So if you get an invitation and
you accept, all you're told is here are just some
(04:14):
basic rules, and you have to show up on time
or early at this address and we're really particular about that.
And so it already just feels kind of wild. People
are concerned that they're going to have their kidney stolen,
like the whole thing is just and so what got
me originally curious. I wish I could say that I was,
you know, inclined to being socially capable, but I was
(04:38):
so unpopular as a kid that eventually I became a
behavioral scientist to figure out how to make friends. It's
really one of those like revenge of the nerd kind
of situation.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
That sounds like some deep baggage there, John, Oh, yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
I mean we can unpack it here and hopefully it'll
be cheaper than there.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
I mean, it's the ultimate revenge of the nerds because
you've now broken bread with you know, kind of some
regular cool people like us to be debated.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
I mean, you guys are running great brand.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Like amazing no bel laureates he he.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
It was Olympians, like I couldn't believe when it was
revealed who I was sitting with, who some of those
people were.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
It was wild. So tell us more.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Yeah, we've had everybody from the Prime Minister of Belgium.
Was it to the guy who won a Grammy for
barking on who let the dogs out? To no be
laureates like Malala or doctor Brown Michael Brown who won
for discovering statns, which I think estimated at this point
(05:36):
probably saved over thirty million lives globally, Like just crazy, wow,
crazy accomplishments. I've hosted about four thousand people at over
four hundred and some odd dinners already. So it's been
a real journey and a real privilege frankly to eat
such bad food with such great people.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
But this is such the foresight around this influencer. I
mean you were kind of the original influencer before it
was a thing.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
Right, This was twenty ten. Instagram didn't even exist, yeah right,
and like Facebook was yeah something, but nobody called somebody
with a lot of followers on Facebook. I don't even
know if there was a follow option back then, right.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I'm so curious what made you call this the influencer
dinner and how did you start reaching out to people?
Because getting a random email saying, hey, come to this
dinner it is a little bit off putting and it's
kind of like a little bit sus right.
Speaker 4 (06:28):
Yeah, one hundred percent. So when I started this, I
was trying to understand what influences people's behavior, not how
do I influence you to buy, you know, like some
makeup or something like that, which is kind of what
brands are more concerned with now, and so I was
looking for people who had an ability to have an
influence through their thought leadership. Right, maybe they'd write books,
(06:51):
their professors, stuff like that. Position. So, Marissa, you lead
marketing at major brands. So because of that position, you
have the incredible ability and in fact mandate to influence
and previous success. So I would joke around that, like,
what was that guy from MySpace that everybody was Tom? Right,
everybody's friends with Tom on MySpace even though Tom hasn't
(07:13):
done anything since the fact that he invented MySpace was
a previous success that was big enough to shift society.
And so those are the kinds of things like you
may have won an Olympic medal, but it was nineteen
ninety two. That still counts. That was an incredible achievement.
And so those are kind of the characteristics. And then
to answer your question of how do you get started? Oddly,
(07:33):
this is so weird, Almost everybody's email addresses are publicly available.
So if you won a Nobel prize, almost every Nobel
laureate's email address is publicly available because they're academics, and
so you can just look for their scientific papers and
their email addresses are on them. Olympians also allow them
tend to become speakers and stuff, so you can just
(07:53):
go on through their websites, you would be shocked. And
then business executives, everybody's email address follows some standard pass
at a company, as all of you know that get
way too much spam. So the bigger issue is to
write emails that don't hit spam blockers, frankly.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
And so it just sounds like some good old hard work,
some good slew thing.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
But again but the oh no, no, no, nobody should
be doing hard work. Let's be very clear about this.
In today's era where you can have AI create lists
for you, and back then that was in an option,
but we hired people from upwork who were experts at
researching potential guests and finding their email addresses. And we
just have people who work for us full time finding
(08:35):
person after person.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Sure, but that's today. I mean the way you started
this thing, because again it's been a movement and I
want to get to your new book, but like I
wanted you to touch on your first book because this
whole idea of understanding this human connection, which I think
really drives a lot of what is at our core
values for Marisa and I just understanding why were you
(08:56):
so curious about human connection other than you know, some
baggage from high school. But really, what did you learn
because you share a little bit of this at the dinners, Yeah,
but like, what was the biggest kind of aha moment
for you? Given all the folks that you've done this.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
Probably the biggest insight is that And this was really
unexpected for me because I was in my late twenties
early thirties when I started this, and I was you know,
frankly wildly insecure, under employed, I was overweight, I was broke,
like I felt like I didn't have much going for me.
And I would meet all these people who had achieved
(09:32):
the greatest achievements in their industry, architects who had the
Fitzker Award and Olympians and CEOs and all that, and
what shocked me was that no matter how successful people were,
nobody felt like they fit in. And it became very
clear that what people want more than anything is a
feeling of belonging. And you know, we talk about Maslow's
(09:54):
higher order of needs, like oh, we need water and
shelter and all these things, but then here's a weird thing.
People will give those things up in order to belong
People will starve themselves in order for hopes of belonging.
People leave their homes into uncertainty in order to feel
that they belong. And some social scientists argue that the
(10:17):
base characteristic of human beings is actually belonging, and everything
else build on top of that. And so if you're
a CEO and you've had three great quarters, fantastic, but
you know, if your next two aren't also great, you're out.
If you're an Olympic swimmer, you may be won by
three one hundredths of a second and you might have
the gold right now, but at the next Olympics you
(10:39):
might be aged out and not even make the team.
And so everybody feels that, yeah, they've achieved something, but
that doesn't mean they get to hold on to their status.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
It's interesting because I know, going to that it was
such a leap of faith, and you're right, it goes
against everything your parents, and it's taught you, like, don't
just go to places that are unknown with strangers. And
suddenly you're just showing up at this apartment and you
don't know what to expect, and except that you know
everyone's there for a reason, and a good reason, so
you're sort of taking the trust fall for that reason.
(11:14):
But the fact that you so purposely insist, that you
so purposefully insist that no one identify themselves by what
they do, I think is such a commentary on frankly,
how we function in societies. We often go right to
our identity through what we do and our careers and
(11:35):
just kind of knowing everyone there is worth getting to
know on some level without having to make the conversation
about your career, your job, what you do, your identity
was actually a really good forced exercise. How purposeful was
that for you then? And does it feel like it's
only become more necessary to do it less? How has
(11:56):
that dynamic changed as this whole constant struct has grown
and society has changed.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
It's always been part of the design, the anonymity factor,
and the reason is we wanted a universal equalizer among
the participants. We also wanted the experience of being uncomfortable together.
So there's this concept called the Ikea effect. In the
(12:24):
business world, we think that if I want to win
you over as a client, Stephen, I might take you
out for an expensive business dinner nobody likes those dinners.
They're awful and like, listen, sometimes you'll meet somebody charismatic,
sometimes you'll be seated next to the right person, but
mostly you're not. It's usually just like, what on earth
(12:47):
am I doing here? And couldn't I be at home
with my family or watching Netflix or relaxing or something right?
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Right?
Speaker 4 (12:56):
What actually works as the exact opposite. It's called the
Ikea effect. We care more about our Ikea furniture because
we have to assemble it. And so what we wanted
to do was get people into an experience where they
had a common enemy, which was time, and that common
(13:18):
enemy because they have too much to accomplish with so
little time. Then they have to then begin to rely
on each other and invest effort. And so suddenly what
happens is that in about forty five minutes, people feel
more connected to the guests that are there than many
of you feel with your teams after months of calls together.
(13:41):
And that's because everything we really do to build trust
in connection we do wronger backwards.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
But it's fascinating because it's such a forcing function to
really work with another human And you know, it's interesting.
I'm Dominican. I've lived kind of all over the world.
It's a very American thing. The first question that you
ask is, oh, what do you do like that doesn't
happen in Latin America, it doesn't happen in Europe. I'm
(14:08):
sure are other parts of the world that you've experienced.
And so when you have like folks that are coming
to your dinners that are international, how is the experience
for them, Because I'm sure it's a different vector to it.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
So it's interesting. I can't give you a clear answer,
but what I can share is that in general, the
higher the relationship to personal identity or job is, the
more you'll end up leading with it. So maybe you
work in let's say, a manufacturing facility and you assemble
(14:42):
some widget or whatever whatever it is, right, that might
not be the identity thing for you. It might be
the sports team in your church, And so you'll find
that depending on where people live and the culture, it's
just a different thing. It's not like one thing is
better than the other. It's like, oh, why do people
always ask me which church I go to? Or why
(15:03):
do people always ask me which sports team? I'm a
vanom I'm not a fan of any sports team. So
it would be very weird for me if somebody start
off a conversation with me about like, oh, how do
you feel about.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
We're more than happy to welcome you to Arsenal. You
could be an Arsenal fan.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
And once again we cannot get through an episode of
Brand New and Arsenal Reverence.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
On brand for Steven. But listen, it's about those.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
That's part of connection too, right, I mean fundamentally why
people connect over sports teams is a shared connection, right.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
But I'm so curious to that point. I mean when
you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs and you know,
for those that aren't as familiar, you know, kind of
that base level is you know, physiological, you know, water, food, sleep,
as you mentioned, John, But then the next one up
is safety, you know, your home. The next level up
is love and belonging, and then esteem, and then the
pinnacle is self actualization that you live into your highest potential.
(15:56):
Do you think it's actually flip?
Speaker 4 (15:58):
Actually, it turns out the law added a layer that
people don't know about. Oh really, after that, which was
like esthetics and things like that, it was about kind
of like this beauty and awe of reality kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Was that part of self actualization or it was like
above it.
Speaker 4 (16:14):
No, it was supposed to be I think an additional one.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
But my point is about belonging, right, I mean, I
totally subscribe to this idea that we are wired as
humans because we are social creatures, we need to have belonging.
And I'm so curious, do you feel like they have
it flipped?
Speaker 4 (16:31):
I think we need to take it even a step further.
It's not that we are social creatures and thereby need belonging.
It is that it is impossible for a mother who
recently delivered a child to survive, protect and feed herself
and that child. In nature, the mother can't do that
(16:54):
and collect enough calories, which means that it's not that
we're social creatures. It is that in order to survive
we as a species, we have to have mechanics in
place that allow us to interact, and we must depend
on each other, otherwise we are not fulfilling our genetic
obligation of reproduction. And in order to do that, we've
(17:17):
created a collection of systems. One is called trust, and
trust is nothing more than the willingness to be vulnerable.
So we at some point negotiated that Hey, I'm not
going to go through this long cognitive process to evaluate
if I should trust you. Instead, I'll collect a bunch
of signals and I'll have an emotional response and I'll
feel that as trust And in general it works. When
(17:40):
it doesn't, it's just terrible. So like a Burnie Madoff
would be an example. Right, in general, you're like, oh, bankers,
you know, like I can put my money in Chase,
I can put my money here, you know whatever, I'm fine,
And then there's a Bernie made Off that just completely
demolishes everything. The other mechanic that we ended up having
to include is that we need to.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Be in groups doublequick into that because obviously given where
we are with social media, obviously now going to an
AI world and it's going to even fragment people even more, Like,
how do you view this idea that we need to
be in groups when folks can't even go out leave
their home, you know, they don't know how to meet
people in real life? Like how do you see that?
Speaker 1 (18:21):
And I want to bridge that to teams, right because
groups are sometimes by choice, teams are often not certainly
in the professional right assignment. So i'd love to help
make that bridge for us. What does this mean for teams?
Speaker 4 (18:33):
So let's answer this in two parts. The first part
is what does it mean to society? Well, around nineteen fifty,
at least in Western society, we peaked from a social
connectivity standpoint, At least in the US, post war sentiment
was at the highest point. TV is invented, starts entering
the homes, and we see a massive decline in social engagement.
(18:57):
The number of social groups that people participate in, clubs,
organizations begin to decline dramatically. By nineteen eighty five, the
average American is down to only three friends besides family.
Two thousand and four, nineteen years later, we are down
to two. Now fifteen percent of all men have zero friends.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
It's an epithetic yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
And so you have to ask what's going on? And
then you turn to social media before we begin to
blame social media, which listen, I love blaming social media.
It's such a lovely scapegoat for everything. If there's something
wrong with this world, you just say social media and
people are like, yes, everybody agrees, right.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Everyone's still on it.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
It might take not our platform, it's somebody else's. It's
always been four tran or what like one of these
other ones. Right, But the point is before we blame
any of that, let's ask did social media exist between
nineteen eighty five and two thousand and four? And the
answer is not really Facebook. I think only started and
two thousand and three, two thousand four. What is probably
(20:03):
the biggest cause of decline is threefold one helicopter parenting.
Because when your parents are constantly all over you, you
do not develop your own social skills. When you are
assigned who you're going to hang out with on playdates
and you don't have to ask or arrange or play
stickball with the local kids in the neighborhood, you do
not learn social skills. So we see a massive decline
(20:25):
in social skills. Second, let me ask you a question, Stephen.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Where were you born Mount Vernon, New York?
Speaker 4 (20:32):
Fantastic? Where did you go to college?
Speaker 2 (20:34):
I went to Tof's University, which is where Medphah, Massachusetts or
Medford for the non mass people.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
And then where did you get your first job.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
In New York?
Speaker 4 (20:43):
Where?
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Like?
Speaker 2 (20:44):
What company?
Speaker 4 (20:44):
Which part of New York? It's a big state.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Oh, I was in Manhattan.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
Exactly. Every time you had a life moment you reset
all of your social ties. You grew up with a
whole group of kids, then you reset those social ties,
went off to college, met all these people, then reset
your social ties going to your very first job. If
every few years you're resetting your social ties, how are
(21:10):
you going to have friends? The great predictor of friendship
is simply how close your door is to the other
person's door. The first thing we have to understand is
that the more we have people move, the fewer friends
they're probably going to have. That's just the reality of it.
If we're then going to look at social media, I
(21:30):
would say that there's kind of two major issues there.
Issue Number one is it's not that you're on social media.
Social media is like alcohol. It's entertaining. Most people can
handle it, and that my theory is that there's a
small percentage of people who really can't. These are like
the alcoholics.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Right, Well, it does have addictive tendencies, right, So.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Sure, but listen, if you doom scroll for fifteen minutes
like you're going to be fine, Like your mental health
that you're going to be able to adjust?
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Is it?
Speaker 4 (22:00):
It's not going to probably take you from I apologize
for bringing this up, but it's not going to take
you from like happy to suicidal. It might bum you out, But.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
It depends on the age, right, I mean us as
adults we can do that. Maybe a fourteen year old
might not be developed enough to know the difference.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah, yes, well that's his point is most of us
can handle it, but not everyone, and that's what we
realize is a flaw in the system. Same with alcohol.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
I guess if you actually look at the stats the
does it have a negative impact in terms of happiness. Yes,
it's just not as dramatic as people keep talking about.
And the reason it probably is not doing that is
that there's two forms of social media. There are those
that are status based comparers and they're those that entertain us.
So if you go on to Reddit, you're probably entertained
(22:48):
for the most part. Now there's a lot of rage
content with the politics stuff, but you're probably more entertained.
If you go onto Instagram, you're probably more comparing yourself
and that makes you feel worse. Now when we talk
about the workplace, the workplace is one of the few
places that you are required to interact with people you
don't necessarily know very well. Now, there are a lot
(23:08):
of misnomers about the workplace or part of a family.
You got to like each other. None, that's true, Marissa.
When your parents maybe had a tough year, do they say, oh,
we're going to be downsizing or getting rid of one
of the siblings, Like, that's not a thing that you share.
And so let's be honest. It's more like being part
of a sports team. When you stop being useful to
(23:31):
the sports team, they'll trade you or they'll end your contract,
because the responsibility is to the team above the individuals.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
You play for the badge, as they say.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
Yeah, and if you're a professional, it means that your
badge will change. It's just part of the deal. Doesn't
matter how good you are. Lebron played for the Cavaliers,
he played for Lakers. He played right, and that's part
of the deal.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Okay, So then team really is the right word, whether
it's a sports team or a work team, and the
same rules apply. But take us now to some of
the big AHAs from the work you've done in researching
team intelligence. Because Steve and I are both leaders of teams,
we have a lot of people that are who are
listening or want to be and it's really hard to
(24:15):
sometimes figure out the secret sauce too.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
How people are paying the button.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Be honest, because it's great because of the people, and
sometimes it's great for every reason but the people. I
will say this about myself every time I've left somewhere
and maybe started to try to do something a little
more independently, I do miss the sense of.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Being on a team.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
I really enjoy that, even though it's messy and complicated
and frustrating and a big source as a leader of
the things you wind up dealing with it are hard,
but you know you're trying to get to this place
of both high performance but connection.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
And what's the answer if there is one.
Speaker 4 (24:57):
Let's separate two things out really.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Quick, making you separate things.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
I'm sorry, no, no, fine, It's just the problem is
that we tend to combine a lot of ideas in
corporate America, and then they get repeated over and over again,
and we think that they're associated when they're not necessarily
related to each other.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
All right, break it down for me.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
So we're going to break down leadership and teams because
they're actually very different. Leadership barely has anything to do
with other people, which is weird all. So, we're generally
taught that there are these essential skills to leadership, and
if you have them, then great you can be a leader.
Otherwise you need to go to like get a Harvard
MBA or mckinzi'll come in and consult with you and
(25:39):
help you figure out your team. You know, these skills
are lovely, but the truth is they're kind of useless,
and the evidence is that the most effective leaders in
our society don't have them. Elon Musk was not great
at creating psychological safety, building consensus among his people. Neither
Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, right, like, these are all nice.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
To have benevolent dictators, sir.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Yeah, benevolent.
Speaker 4 (26:01):
Well, we get debate that I wouldn't call it benevolent,
being a diypomatic for I. You know, when the things
said about Musca, I think was like I had the
option of being bored somewhere else or burnt out here.
I choose to be burnt out. Like people understand, the
defining characteristic of a leader is really simple. It's that
they have followers. That's it. Now, what causes us to
(26:23):
follow people is what's really important, And it's a weird
quirk of human behavior having to do with our relationship
to the future. So when you are we're in high
school on Sunday at six pm, you probably had the
Sunday scaries. You were free, but the future was anxiety ridden,
so you felt anxious. Now on Friday at one pm,
(26:44):
when you were stuck in class, you felt excited because
the future was freedom. And herein lies the weird thing.
We don't relate to the present, We relate to the future.
And the reason that we follow someone is quite simply
removing all morality and all the kind of bs that
people have placed on it. That those people make us
(27:04):
feel that they'll be a new and better future. That's it,
nothing else. You don't need to like them. You can
hate them and you will still follow. If you feel
the future will be better, you will ignore and forgive
their transgressions. You don't need to want to hang out
with them. They just need to make you feel that
the future is better. I want to emphasize two essential
things here. One is this does not make them qualified
(27:27):
for anything. You could have a bunch of idiots following
a moron.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
We're all holding back comments right.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Now, oh right, right right? I mean I got so
many comments.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
Everyone just fill in the blink.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
And the second thing is we need to now know
what causes that. And the answer of what triggers that
emotional response is that Stephen and Marissa, each of you
have a collection of super skills that are so profoundly
strong that when people interact with them, they go wow
with them in charge. I don't need to worry about that.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
That's it, But it sounds like it's deeply rooted in
I don't know if it's you know, wearing the brain,
the prefrontal cortex, or you know, some part of the
brain you know are our lizard brain, if you will,
that this has to do something with like fight or flight,
some way that we find safety in people that could
actually assure a better, safer future.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
I think we're taking it one step beyond. I think
we're adding something there. I'd say it might be safety,
but it also could be opportunity.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Right.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
It could be that the amigdala actually has nothing to
do with anything.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Right.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
I don't want to try to structure something from a
neurological standpoint, just so much so as you understand that
if somebody triggers that feeling, you'll follow that's it. Now
this only gets the crew together for the heist. For
the group to get away with the heist, we actually
have to look at the group dynamics and that I'll
give you like the three things that we discovered super fast.
(28:59):
The first is it's not IQ. It doesn't matter if
you have somebody super smart on the team. The second
is it doesn't matter the average IQ and you don't
even need to like each other. That is not a predictor.
The single greatest predictor was adding Marisa to the team,
not you, Steven, because it was the number of women
on the team. Boom.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
I believe it.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
That's a punchline.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
But I'm curious, is there is there like a high
R squared that connects you know, kind of women on
the team and what I have always referred to as
glue team members, like people that are the glue for
a team that really make the team worse.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
So the actual answer is that the reason that it
looks like it's women, it's not a chromosomal thing is
that women have higher emotional intelligence on average. There are
plenty of men with high emotional intelligence. There are plenty
of women with no favorite topic. Really, when you go
from like a single person activity to a group activity.
What you end up with is the need to coordinate
(29:53):
more than pure talent and emotional intelligence.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Lets you do that, all right?
Speaker 1 (29:58):
When we come back, we're going to play a speed
round with John of cool or cringe.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
All right, we're back with John Levy and we are
so thrilled to have you here, but we have to
play some cooler cringe John, So are you ready for
the lightning round?
Speaker 4 (30:20):
I am ready. Let's crush this all right, let's.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Do it first. One. Is it mandatory for team building
to have trust balls?
Speaker 4 (30:28):
Oh my god, the most cringey thing I have ever
come across. No, No, no, absolutely not. Basic rule of
team connection in the workplace. You do not need to
start talking about your personal lives. It is not a requirement.
Vulnerability at work looks more like, Hey, Marissa, I'm really
(30:49):
nervous for a big presentation to the board. Could you
take a look at my slides? Or Stephen, I don't
feel like I'm a great presenter. Would you watch me
present and give me feedback? That's the kind of vulnerability you.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Need to Well are you saying not mandatory? I guess
i'd debate that in my own experience as a leader,
because I think the older I've gotten in the further
the more vulnerable and sort of warts and all I've
allowed myself to be. And I feel like that has
fostered closeness.
Speaker 4 (31:20):
With absolutely I think. But let's not confuse not forced vulnerability. Yeah,
like me telling you as a group activity, we're going
to stare into each other's eyes.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
Cringe, cringe, Okay, we agree?
Speaker 2 (31:36):
All right?
Speaker 3 (31:36):
How about this?
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Since and I wanted to talk about this so much
more with Stephen was alluding to it when we talked
about the word influence obviously influncial so cool or cringe.
People who are professional aka on social media influencers, Where
does that sit for you?
Speaker 4 (31:53):
I think it's weird to call yourself an influencer. I
think that being a content creator, being a micromedia outlet
one hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
I have a profound respect for people who know how
to create content that consistently engages an audience. But referring
to myself as an influencer would be like referring to
myself as a genius, like look at me, I'm so smart? Right,
And hopefully we're seeing the word phase out.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
More and more. All right, so cool or cringe teams
that now have AI agents as part of their team.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
I think it's cool. Now. I want to explain the
role of a leader and anybody in the team is
to maximize how smart the team is, meaning it solves
problems quickly if you are adopting technology, regardless if it's
the right technology right now or not. I give respect
for the teams to try stuff out that's new. I
think that that's really great fair and sometimes it'll work
(32:49):
out great, sometimes it'll fail.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
All right, Well, end with the softball one. You're ready
cooler cringe curated networking events like you know, dinner party.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
Oh, so networking events are cringe curated. Intimate experiences are
super cool quick fact or study researchers at Columbia. I
think it was try to understand people's implicit association to networking,
like what's in the background of their head and the
feeling was needing to wash because they felt dirty.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
Now, if you're invited to an environment where you feel
like you're making friends, that doesn't exist because you don't
feel like you are using somebody, Yeah, transactionally and so yeah.
Gatherings that are intimate are curated, fantastic.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
I couldn't agree more. And it's actually one of my
pet peeves, right, Like, no one wants to be sold to,
but people want to buy this whole idea that business
has to be transactional. It's just I reject it so,
just vehemently. And it's hard for folks, right because they've
grown up in an era where it has to be
the sale, it has to be the transaction, and it's
just I don't think that's the way people want to
be anymore.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
I will say, as a marketer, I'm working so hard
on that, but it's hard, I really am.
Speaker 4 (33:58):
Can I say something disagree on one factor? I want
to be sold to. I want to be sold to,
though in a way that's benevolent.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Well that's the point, right, Like I think that's what
Stephen's saying is just don't make it feel so crass.
Speaker 4 (34:11):
Yeah, So, if you want the science of it, trust
is made of three things. It's made out of honesty
you're telling me the truth, Competence you can do the
job that's expected of you. And benevolence you have my
best interests at heart. If somebody who works for you
screws up in terms of competence. Like normally they're great
and they have a bad presentation. You don't say you're fired.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
That's weird, that's right.
Speaker 4 (34:31):
But if you find out they're lying to you, you're like, wait,
I can't trust you anymore. Honesty is valued more than competence.
But if Stephen says John, we're taking a walk and
he says, I forgot something at the office, and when
I get there, mercid, you're there with forty of my
closest friends and you scream surprise, happy birthday, it would
be weird if I said, Stephen, you just lied to me.
(34:52):
We can't do that's benevolence that thinks you did it
for benevolent reasons.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
That would be a good surprise. I probably do that
for each other, for you day.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
We will please. So we value benevolence above honesty and
honesty above competence. Every sale tends to focus on competence,
which is the least important factor of trust. What you
need to do is focus on benevolence and demonstrate honesty
and competence over time.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Well, we need a whole separate pod. John then to
talk about that with Silicon Valley and just like tech
companies in general, because all they want to do is
lead with competence and how great their speeds and feeds are.
But that's a different pod. But I do have to
ask as we kind of wrap up the insight behind
team intelligence, like you've obviously been doing all these dinners.
You wrote your first book, which was a national bestseller,
(35:38):
what really prompted you to do this new book? Because
everyone's talking about AI, but here you are talking about TI,
not the rapper, but team intelligence.
Speaker 4 (35:48):
So just to set the record stright, my first book
was about me getting drunk in Europe, so that one
did not hit the best seller list. It was called
The two Am Principle. You're Invited was a New York
Times Wall Street Journal bestseller, and.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
This new one.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
What prompted me is that the fact is, no matter
if technology is involved or not, our job is to
make the team as smart as possible. Now AI will
assist in that by unlocking very specific factors and team interaction,
but the goal is always the same, and if it's
if the smallest unit of effectiveness is team, then most
of the things we're actually going to be dealing with
(36:21):
are the human aspects, and so that's why I wrote this,
because there are people who understand software much better and
optimizations much better on all that. But my specialty is
the human side of stuff, and that's what I think
I can contribute to the conversation.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
And when does the book come out?
Speaker 4 (36:37):
It came out October seventh. It's already a national bestseller,
and hopefully by the time this airs it'll be a
New York Times bestseller as well.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Woo, we will manifest that the human side is a
piece of all this that we care deeply about, and
that's why we were so eager to have you on
to talk. And thanks for some really different insights around
leadership and connection.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
And John Levy, thanks for being here.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
This is a treat Thank you both.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Thanks so much, Chuck.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Well, that's it for now.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
Friends.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
We're going to close right there because we've had such
a juicy conversation today. If you like what you're hearing
from us, don't forget to subscribe and have any questions
or comments, just send them to us at ideas at
brandashnew dot com. We hope you'll join us again. See
you soon on brand New
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.