June 18, 2024 • 48 mins
With our world in a state of rapid change, Steven and Marisa talk about what it all means (or might mean, or should mean) through the lens of work. Joining in for the conversation is Jessi Hempel, Senior Editor at LinkedIn and host of the award winning podcast Hello, Monday. Together, they discuss the big themes we can glean about our collective relationship with work together, and how, especially in these industries, to approach our evolving careers with practical optimism. Should the words “networking” and “dream job” be considered Cool, or Cringe? Listen in and find out!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hi, and welcome to Brand New from the iHeart Podcast
Network and Brand New Labs. I'm Marissa Fahlberg.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And I'm Stephen wolf be Aida. Marissa, there's been a
lot going on, and you're on the road. Where have
you been?
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Yes, I am as usual, I've been on the road.
You've been on the road. I'll tell you. One of
the cool things I was on the road for recently
was in the midst of New York Tech Week. It
ended with a breakfast event that I not only got
to attend, but I got to do one of the
introductions for women in ai A. I just keeps coming up,
(00:43):
but it needs to be because it's changing so rapidly
and it's becoming so pervasive. But the thing that really
struck me, and it just brings me back to why
I founded Executive Moms all those years ago, is man,
we've made a lot of progress and the world is changing,
but in some ways we are just not progressive enough
when it comes to gender equality. My friend, and thank god,
(01:05):
you're one of the advocates, but I'll tell you the
thing that's concerning.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
So sad we're we're still having this conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Well, we're still having it and what is interesting. And
I was diving into this a little bit more just
to prepare myself for how to set up these opening
remarks and did a little additional research. And boy, you
would think that technology would progress us. But the problem
is just like there's inequality and gender in the world
(01:31):
that is becoming not only present in AI, but it's
almost exacerbating the bias. And I'll give you a perfect example.
You want to hear this example, Yeah, okay. So let's
say that you're an author, hypothetically speaking, and you want
to use GENII tool to help you figure out the
plot for a novel. And you're like, okay, whatever tool
(01:53):
you're using, help me come up with a plot involving
a doctor and a nurse. The genii EE tool is
going to spit back that the doctor is a male
and the nurse is a female. That's a real example
that's not made up. And in fact, when a real
author did this and then said, AI, why are you
exhibiting this gender bias, the AI explained it was because
(02:15):
of the data it had been trained on. So this
is the problem. We're literally coding in bias and tech
is still very dominated by men, and so boy, does
this make the case for the importance of women being
at the table in business in general, but certainly as
AI progresses, because the bias is getting coded in because
(02:37):
women just aren't that present. Absolutely, yeah, we've solved them all, right, Yeah, Well,
only thirty percent of those working in AI right now,
according to the Global Gender Gap Report, are women. So
I was really really delighted to put this in a
more optimistic note, to see this rooftop in New York
(02:59):
filled with women and men too, but like young women,
technical women, I mean people from some of the leading companies,
including men. I mean really smart, technical, interesting, dynamic conversation,
and people really wanting to make a difference. So I'm
happy just to put women into this equation as we
(03:19):
continue to talk about the evolution of AI.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
But Marsa, we've solved all this, I mean, haven't we
solved all the women issues? I mean, like, why do
we still need to be talking about this?
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Agree?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Agree?
Speaker 1 (03:31):
I know I'm joking.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
But look, this is where we're not going to make
any progress until we actually see people get into positions
of power and influence. And you certainly are a woman
of power and influence, but we need to see more
women in tech specifically, No, I mean, as someone that's
come up through you know, tech, it's a sad though, right,
I mean, and it's not getting any better, and I
(03:55):
feel like there's a such ridiculous bias. And you know,
I know people are probably about these kind of conversations.
I mean, just look at the podcast, like you know
all in you know, you just got a bunch of
tech bros just doing their thing and talking their talk,
and that's great, but you're really not having an inclusive conversation.
And I don't know, it's it just feels that this
conversation it's not really progressing. And I'm tired of this incrementalism.
(04:19):
I want to see a step function change where you
actually really do see this because it is going to
be so defining again across all these different dimensions, whether
it's you know, women and how AI is going to
be kind of writing that script, or whether it has
to do with people of color, you know, seray Latinos,
which I'm very passionate about, but all these issues that
the bias gets to be reinforced.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
That's the thing. It's not like it's not getting better.
The scary part is is it getting worse because of
this perpetuation. So I know that sounds a little doom
and gloom, but the first way to fix it is
to recognize that there is a problem. Make sure you
have the right diverse perspectives at the table. To me,
that's the real benefit of diverse It is so that
(05:01):
that kind of bias isn't perpetuated anyway. That all sounds
very serious, but it was really lovely. And I'll tell you,
since I mentioned Executive Moms, which I founded so long ago,
I had such a good executive mom's moment. Can I
tell you In the course of going to this event,
our friends at Ai Trailblazers did this great summit, and
then you know the fact that they had the foresight
(05:21):
to have this breakfast. So you know my daughter Hannah,
who is legitimately working in this industry, she's in the biz.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Biz and she's one of our listeners.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
She is, and I wanted to make sure that I
got to see her too, like executive mom toggling. And
they said, we'll just bring her to dinner. And so
it is this lovely seated dinner party. She wasn't even
seated next to me. And you have that moment of like, oh,
that's how's that going to be? And then I'm just
sort of sitting watching her old court and having these
(05:53):
wonderful conversations. She's probably at least, if not more conversant
in all of this than I am at this point.
And it was just such an awesome mom moment of
realizing that she didn't need to be there just as
a favor as my daughter. She was there in her
own right. It was it was pretty wild. I gotta
tell you, I know you've got a few years before
(06:14):
you have that with your kids. So I'm showing you
the future. And that's a really cool part.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
That is a proud mama moment. I mean, I feel
that I have been trying to do something in the
opposite direction, which is, you know, less than the professional.
I've been trying to spend time with each of my
family members. I took my son on a trip and
we had a daddy son trip, and then I just
came back from a daddy daughter trip, our first and
(06:39):
again she's six, right, but it was just so interesting
to kind of see these you know, kind of little
humans in their own you know, kind of environment, not
influenced by like their sibling or whatever it is. It
was just very cool to see who she is and
her personality and how it's you know, kind of developing
it and just really having her beat. And it was
(07:03):
just fascinating to see these little you know, these little
things that you probably don't notice in the day day
and day out of you know, just daily life. But
you know, she's super organized and she's a planner, and
you know that's definitely part of my personality. You know,
I just saw her kind of like taking everything out
of her suitcase and putting it away, and so it's
just like all these little observations that I feel like
(07:24):
we missed those moments and really trying to spend that
one on one time with each of my children, and
then of course I'm going to be doing that with
my wife very soon, which is you know, we get
to have a kind of a couple time R and
we're going to go on our own little VAK. But
I feel, you know, just this urge, this need to
spend you know, kind of depth. I want quality time.
(07:44):
I don't want this superficial stuff. And I just feel
it's this craving for again authenticity, as we always talk about,
how do you really spend quality time. And this is
kind of on the eve of us going to can
where it's going to be you know, a ton of
people and we're going to see a bunch of folks
and it's great to see everyone, But where do you
really have a quality conversation. I'm just craving for that
(08:06):
ability to have real talk.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Well, I'll tell you. I mentioned now executive moms a
couple of times, and what you're discussing is, I think,
frankly a truth for executive parents, which is that when
we navigate the pressures of work, the time commitments, the
travel figuring out, it's never going to live in perfect
balance and harmony. That's just a false construct. But what
(08:29):
you're doing that, I think is such a great example
as finding ways to then create your own special moments
and your own special quality time. I always tried to
do that too, and create your own traditions and hopefully
over time it balances out. But you know, I'll tell you,
the world is changing so much and because of everything
we've been talking about tech of course, and the pressures
(08:51):
of business, and when we come back, we want to
really talk about it today, not through the lens of
tech but through the lens of all this change in
terms of work and how we should all be thinking
or could be thinking about our careers and gratification all that.
So coming right back, we're back, and we are talking
(09:16):
about careers of course in the industry specifically that we
focus on marketing, tech, media, advertising, entertainment, but this is
also for everyone, and for this conversation we asked our
friend Jesse Hempbal to join us today. Jesse is a
fellow graduate of Brown University. Go Bruno very excited about that,
(09:37):
and for nearly two decades, she's been writing and editing
about work and life and meaning in the contemporary age
for publications ranging from Wired, Fortune, Time, and Today. She
is both a senior editor at Large at LinkedIn and
the host of the award winning podcast Hello Monday. On
Hello Monday, Jesse's talked with guests like oh, Melinda Gates,
(10:01):
Seth Meyers, Elizabeth Gilbert to get into the kind of
questions I'm hoping we'll get into ourselves today, like what
does work mean to us? And should we love what
we do? And who do we need to be in
order to make it count? So, you know, nothing short
of those kinds of profound work life questions. Welcome, Jesse.
(10:22):
We're so happy to have you for those.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
I always love listening to someone else introduced me because
I'm like, oh, that person sounds way more important than
I feel.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Isn't that always the case that person? Yeah, well you
are pretty great. It was a worthy bio on an
accurate one.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Well, thank you, Jessie. It's great to see you. And
you know, we've been friends for a long time and
I'm a huge fan of your pots, So again, thanks
for being here. But I got to say I love
Hello Monday. And you've been doing for what five years now,
with like over two hundred and eighty guests. You know,
I'd really love to get your PUV just to kick off, Like,
what do you think is the most unexpected theme about
our relationship with work across all the different folks that you've.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Chatted with, It's exactly the right question is why the
show exists? Stephen. The biggest thing to keep in mind
is that no matter what you do, but particularly if
you work in the industries that we're talking about today,
the job that you have today, the title you have today,
is probably not going to be here in five years, right,
and I thought that was true in twenty eighteen. Now
(11:24):
I triple think that that's true. I understand deeply that's true.
But the things you know how to do and the
reasons why you are successful at what you do, there
will be an application for that. And so how long
Monday exists to help people take the things that they
already know how to do, that they're so good at
they may not even name or understand, and create the
(11:45):
opportunity that will exist for them in five years. And
do you know if they make a little more money
into a bigger title in the process, that's pretty good.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
It's fascinating because you know, we always hear about commencement speeches, right,
like it's that kind of time of year, and so
you know, these are going to be jobs in the
future that you can't even imagine that don't even exist.
But it really feels very true now obviously at this
intersection between tech and every single industry. But how do
you feel that it's beyond that right like we are
(12:12):
seeing this incredible accelerated pace. How do you see with
all the folks that you've interviewed, like, what really is
that you know through line? Is there some type of
connective tissue that you've kind of pieced together across all
the folks that you've chatted with.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
I love that you ask it that way, because there
is a through line, and that through line is curiosity
and the ability to sit with ambiguity right because whatever
you're doing right now, it may feel to you like
the ground is eroding beneath you. Jobs aren't shifting soon
in the future, they're shifting now.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Is that the life of a CMO, Marisa?
Speaker 1 (12:44):
I mean, oh, but going to be that? An AI?
The two drinking games you should play for How often
of those get mentioned?
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Well, do we have to talk about AI this early?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Definitely not, because we'll be drunk by the end of.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
What we know is like, we can't really figure out
what that new job in five years is going to be.
If we think we can, we're deluding ourselves. And if
you've worked in this industry a long time, you understand that.
You know, Bill Gates always gets credit for that quote,
but I actually don't think it was it was him
who introduced it. That idea that we usually overestimate what
will be possible in a year, but we underestimate what
(13:21):
will be possible in a decade, right, And so if
we know that to be true, if we take that
as a given, then it's my position and therefore the
position of Hello Monday, and really most of the people
bringing in the studio that the best way to prepare
for that is to be willing to play right, just
willing to like touch all the new things, consider all
(13:42):
the new things, be open minded about all the new things,
and drive a steady course and in the midst of
that to think strategically about the difference between a job
and a career, a set of skills and a set
of opportunities, and to identify what makes you unique.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Right.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
So that's sort of what we're trying to do with
the show. Long answer, but that's it.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Yeah, now, And by the way, that quote is actually
Roy Amher who's a famous you know, futurist scientist. You're
spot on. It wasn't Bill Gates, but you know, somehow
he said it the loudest, so it always goes to him.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
But yes, okay, and coming back to Chatchy BT, try
asking Chatchy BT who said that, and you will understand
all the problems with AI because everybody on the internet
says it's Bill Gates and so Chatchy BT gets kind
of confused and it's like, oh, Bill Gates said this.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Oh yeah, I mean, look, that is scratching at a
topic that we could go on for. We don't want
to make the podcast about AI. There's enough about that
it's impossible to avoid talking about it. To the joke
we made before, But I love that we're coming at
it from. I think this is a very human centered
conversation we're having, and I think your answer just sort
(14:52):
of scratched this. But I was going back to some
of your earlier episodes of Hello Monday. You did one
where you were picking up on the theme of I
love this idea practical optimism. There's a lot of intentional,
probably more unintentional fear mongering with careers right now because
of the uncertainty, because of as you said, living in
(15:12):
the ambiguity is part of it. So I would love
to just get your take, and maybe Steven you want
to add one too, on what's the practical optimism for
people like us in marketing and media to not feel
insecure by the nature of change, but to think about
the positive view of where careers can be going right now.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
As somebody in particular, who has covered technology in the
rise of Technology for twenty five years. I really do
believe that we create the future inner image, and that
if we go into that future, let's get a little
bit less ambiguous and more pragmatic here, Right, If we
begin our search for new opportunities with the belief that
(15:55):
AI is going to eat our lunch, and by the way,
we can't actually shift what we do anyway as well,
that that's actually going to be how it goes. And
if we start instead with the point of view that,
of course there are opportunities for us in the future.
Of course there are, and of course we have the
unique skills that are going to prepare us well for
those opportunities. And if we layer in this idea of
(16:16):
a growth mindset, which is an idea that comes up
over and over on our show, the future is going
to be better no matter what it is, and we
actually have the choice. We can go forward with fear
or we can go forward with that practical optimism. It
starts with understanding that we have the choice. Right. Is
growth mindset the kind of word that your listeners are
(16:37):
probably familiar with.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
I think so, I think some definitely maybe for you know,
some of our early career listeners maybe not so.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
This idea of growth mindset is that no matter the
set of skills you have, you are likely to achieve
more if you believe that you can learn. So I remember,
very early on in Hello Monday's existence, we had a
guest on whose job it was essentially to hire coaches
for pro football teams, and I asked him straight out like,
(17:08):
would you rather the most talented player or would you
rather a player who believes that he can get better
over time? And he was like a hands down, I'll
take the player who believes he can get better. And
I thought, well, that's interesting. In the following week, I
had Sachia Nadella into the studio. Now he's the CEO
of Microsoft, and he had then been in the job
for probably five six years. Now, it's been well more
(17:31):
than a decade, but you know, it was right around
the time where people were starting to look at Microsoft
and say, yeah, that is a profound turnaround. Somehow he
got a company that really didn't believe that it could
invent new things to believe in itself again. And I
asked him, you know, Sasha, how did you do this?
And he said, you know, I just focused on building
a culture around the idea of a growth mindset. I
(17:53):
focused on building a culture where people feel they can learn,
and everything else fell into place.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Seeing sat by the way, who's done an incredible job,
probably one of the most less celebrity tech CEOs, but
he certainly has just transformed that company. And I remember
seeing him at a Fortune event. In fact, I think
it was after you had left Jesse, but you know,
he was so humble about, you know, kind of his
management style and leadership, and I remember him being asked
(18:21):
a question and he just like looked, and you know,
he said, We're not focused on being the know it
all culture. We want to be the learn it all culture.
And I think that really is at the heart of
everything to do with a growth mindset. And it's interesting because,
you know, I struggle with this as a father because
I have two young kids and you know, my daughter six,
(18:43):
my son is going to be nine next month, and
I want them to have a growth mindset. And so
I believe, like I feel like I'm always a lifelong learner.
I tried to instill that in my kids. But it's
funny how a lot of adults and folks that have
been you know, kind of fossilized in their careers. They
get stuck. It's almost like the frozen in amber. And
I think part of it is like bad management, bad
(19:03):
leadership that never had someone to coach them and tell
them what they're doing well, what they're not doing well.
But if you do not have that growth mindset, you
don't have that ability to just learn it all, not
know at all, but learn it all. Really be that sponge.
It's easy to say, but it's really hard to do.
I feel like that's where you see a lot of
folks kind of go sideways in their careers.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
You know, people mess up a lot when they're like, Okay, yeah,
I got growth mindset. I just got to believe I
can do it. I mean, that's it, Like, Okay, I
believe I can do it. And if you walk away
with that as a message, you're going to lose. The
trick here to understanding how to deploy a growth mindset
is to be willing to learn how to learn again
(19:42):
as an adult. Right we need to actually take our
surroundings and figure out what the learning process is and
lean into that. And the other thing that I think
people maybe could sort of broaden their thinking around when
it comes to growth mindset. And we had a great
guest in a guy named Eric potter At who'd written
a book about performance culture. And Eric he had been
(20:04):
the chief psychologist, I believe for the Navy Seals for
a decade, so he was the person who was helping
a group of very elite performers to get into the
right mindset in their head. And he said, you have
to understand you have mindset for different things.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Right.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
So, Stephen, you just beautifully talked about yourself as a father.
You have one mindset as a father in another mindset
when you walk into your professional life and you're a
leader in another mindset, perhaps as a partner, And we
need to look at the ways in which you may
be embracing a growth mindset in one area and just
really missing the opportunity in another area. You don't even
(20:41):
see it. We go deep and we go often on
growth mindset on Hello Monday.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
What if you're in an employment situation though, where you
want to bring that attitude but you're not the CEO
or the president or and so you're or the hiring
manager and you're like, I'm here with my growth mindset.
But I mean, we see this all the time. Well,
you know this is a car company and you haven't
worked in automotives, so you're not qualified. How has doing
(21:09):
this podcast and your work at LinkedIn helped you dole
out advice to people when the circumstances around them don't
create a culture of growth mindset?
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Well, that's sort of like two different circumstances, And I'll
take the easy one first, which is like, how has
LinkedIn helped me do that? I came out of a
career in media, working in magazines where things like management
were not taught or enforced. I had one annual review
during the decade that I worked at Fortune. It was
about ten minutes long. There wasn't really a culture of management.
(21:40):
There was a culture of performance in like talent, and
it was creative and I loved that. I didn't know
anything different. But one joy of then transitioning from being
a journalist in media to being a journalist at a
tech company like LinkedIn is that it practices what it
preaches and it is an incredible management ma. And so
(22:01):
my manager, who is also a dear friend, guy named
Dan Roth, who is the editor in chief of LinkedIn,
we have these collaborative sessions every couple of weeks, these
like how can I move the obstacles out of your
way sessions? How can I help you grow? And so
that's what I hope for for everybody, by the way, right,
But of course that's not how work works.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
I know that. But it's also very industry dependent. Now
that I'm back in media, I feel like I've worked
in a lot of different industries, you know, from finance
to tech to media to advertising, and there are certain nuances,
there's certain constructs to the way an industry operates to
what is expected certainly, everything from the way you treat
(22:39):
people to you know, kind of the people that get promoted,
to the leadership styles. And I almost feel like that
is part of your own icky guy right, Like you know,
for all the listeners out there, like you really need
to figure out how to kind of fit in with
not just what you're good at and what you love
and what the world needs, but to what you get
paid for finding the industry that's going to be the
(23:00):
right almost personality fit because there are differences.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
Look, and you're gonna have a bad boss even at
a really great company. You know, by the time you
get to the middle of your career, I would be
shocked if you didn't have somebody who, for whatever reason,
either wasn't in a place to help you grow or
wasn't in a place to be recognize themselves. And actually
we did a whole episode down it was called how
(23:23):
to have a good day at a bad job, because
we've all had them, right, and so you have sort
of two opportunities in those moments. One is to step
back and say, Okay, well, what can I learn from
this bad boss situation that I'm in and make for
yourself like three goals. You know, I am going to
learn how to effectively communicate with people who don't share
(23:44):
my point of view. I am going to learn how
to hold my tongue even when I know this is
terrible idea, whatever it is. And then secondarily, this is
when I think you really need to be like out
looking for other opportunities. And here's the thing. When you
have a bad boss, sometimes you begin to internalize whatever
(24:05):
you're hearing in the microculture that is your work, right,
And I'm going to just guess that in those moments
your own confidence is flagging. You don't necessarily have the
perspective to understand what your gifts are. And so that's
also a really good opportunity for a coach, frankly, for
somebody who can help you have a bigger point of
view and help you find the back door out of
(24:27):
what you're doing into something that is going to elevate you.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
I actually do a lot of coaching Jesse, and you know,
it's fascinating to hear how the environment, the words that
people say on a daily basis, the way they describe you,
you almost forget who you are, You forget your talents,
your superpowers, and that this language that is not your reality.
You know who you are, you know what you bring
(24:51):
to the table. But when you're in a toxic environment
or you know, maybe just not an uplifting one, a
nurturing one, that's where you really need need to pull
that record and you really need to protect yourself because
you're better than that and you deserve more. And I
think maybe this leads into the next question. I feel
like some people are old school where they want to
(25:13):
see this very linear progression on a resume or a
LinkedIn profile these days, and it's like, oh, well, you
need to be ex period of time at this company
and then this company. But that's not the case anymore.
And I have this debate with so many folks, you know,
certainly folks that are probably late forties or early fifties
and beyond that want to see the traditional path and
(25:34):
they want to see you at a place for a
long time. And if you've quote unquote hopped around a lot,
well that's negative, that's a red flag. I was literally
debating this with a buddy of mine who's a CEO
at a farmer company, and he was like, I wouldn't
hire those people if they hopped around a lot, And
I'm like, you're missing the point. Man. Like for you know, millennials,
gen z, they view this differently, and I feel like
(25:54):
there is this real changing of the guard, but maybe
the guard isn't changing because all those people are still
in those positions of power. So how do you view
the modern day resume, the LinkedIn resume, if you will,
and kind of the tenure that you need to have
to be viewed as successful.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
I think you need to be your own best storyteller,
and that is your opportunity if you've been somewhere for
fifteen years. I actually am going to sort of cast
a shade of doubt on that. As a hier I'm
going to wonder why you need to be able to
explain why you've been there for fifteen years, if you've
changed jobs every eighteen months. I'm also going to wonder,
but if you can explain why you have done that
(26:30):
and what you have looked to learn at each step,
that's the thing I'm looking for. Then I get it now. Obviously,
I think LinkedIn is a wonderful platform to explain it on.
It's not the only one.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Though, it was a pretty damn good one. I mean, no,
I'm just going to say it's full disclosure. It is
my favorite platform, and I've been on it for a
long time. I'm an og and you know I love
it well.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
I will say you had Gary Vee recently on the
show and he was preaching that everybody should post once
a day, and I thought, gosh, I work here and
I don't post once a day.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
And it was a reminder that debate that little with
Steven because I love it too, but I don't post
every day. No.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
It was a reminder that strategy is our friend here, right,
and being strategic is always a better choice than simply
blanketing whatever channel you have. And I would also say Steven,
and I don't know if this is an experience either
of you had, but it feels like something that I
see and hear a lot, especially if we have been
hyper successful in the early years of our careers. We
(27:27):
go along, we go along, and maybe we enter in
our twenties. At some point we enter the front door
of our careers and we believe life is a meritocracy
because that's what we've been told, particularly if we're gen
X and millennial. I think maybe we're giving gen Z
like a broader idea of life at this point. But
then we get to like around our mid thirties, and
inevitably we look up and we're like, oh, hey, hey,
(27:49):
the game is kind of rigged. Actually I didn't see
this coming. But like people who look like me, or
think like me, or talk like me, whatever that is
for you, in whatever way you feel differ than the
mainstream culture in your office, they don't seem to get
ahead in the same way. And then secondarily you do
this other calculation where you say, I have been trying
(28:11):
to get ahead within the value context of my organization,
but what are my own values and how do I
separate them, And that, to me is this huge moment
that goes on for most professionals I would say in
their mid to late thirties, but it can skew a
bunch of years on either side of that. But then
there's also like this pivot opportunity then, and Hell on
(28:33):
Monday is also very much about that pivot opportunity. How
do you get clear on what is actually your unique
path and then, especially if it's really different than whatever
your day job is right now, how do you lay
the groundwork to move toward it? Then? How do you
have the confidence to know that you can, in fact
you should, it is your birthright.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
I mean, Immersy, this is a whole another pod. Like
we just talked about this whole topic. I mean, I
think both of us are so passionate about it's in fact,
part of the reason why we started this pot in
the first place, right, Mersa, No.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
I'm sitting here thinking, there's so many places I want
to take this conversation now, and I feel like I
am actually sitting here staring at multiple forks in the
conversational road because it's so true, and I think there's
a lot of people are feeling that, which is why
I asked you to kind of give us the positive
optimism spin on the uncertainty, which I think that is
(29:26):
partly that I think there is about the questions that
Jesse and I were talking about the other day about
your own brand and how you shape it, and I
was thinking, it's a bit It's funny, isn't that a
bit chicken an egg? I mean, when Steve and I
were starting this, a whole idea of brand new, and
we knew there were like a lot of meanings in
the word brand that were relevant for this. So you know,
(29:47):
you talk about that as you're building your own brand
has evolved, right You start as a tech journalists, now
you're talking careers and you're also an author of a
memoir that about your family and whole family coming out
of the closet. I mean, the start like they're not pivots.
I don't like that word. That sounds like sharp term.
But it is about evolution and your brand evolving with you.
And I'm curious how you've you've thought about that for yourself,
(30:11):
but you're in a position to give a lot of
advice about that through the lens of career with your
different platforms.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
I began my career really happily as a tech journalist.
I just really loved writing about tech, love writing about
tech and the business of tech, and I understood deeply
who my readers were. In fact, the two of you
were two people I would think of as the ideal readers.
People were making moves in the industry and cared as
(30:37):
much as I did about who the next investor in
Facebook was going to be and whether Twitter was really
going to survive to see another day, which is like,
we're almost to the answer, no, but we're not quite
there yet.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
It's a sad ending. We could all agree. It's not
what we My wife used to work there, I remember
og Twitter, and it's just a very sad state of affairs.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
It's not where we saw go.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
I'm not sure X marks the spot, let's put it
that way. But talk about brand, talk about brand from
the lens of personal evolution.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
Well, so then there was this moment when I was
tired of it, but I was like, but that's what
I do. That moment that I was tired of it
coincided with probably my highest personal brand moment in Silicon Valley.
I remember when I realized I was like too burnt
out to continue. And I was opening Mobile World Congress
in twenty sixteen by interviewing Mark Zuckerberg on stage, and
(31:29):
I had like come all the way to Barcelona, Spain
for this event, and I was staying in this hotel
that Facebook had like bought out the entire hotel and
its executives were all on the eighth floor and then
I was down on the fourth floor. No one else
was allowed in, like this was a big deal. It
could have been Madonna, it could have been Taylor Swift,
like whoa. And I went on stage with him and
(31:51):
it went fine. And I left that stage and I thought,
oh dear, if I keep doing this, I will die inside.
But this is the thing that everybody knows what I do?
What do I do in that moment? Well, it collided
with the personal moment like be fully transparent, which is
that my wife was pregnant and having children, and I
kind of stepped back and I was like, it's time
(32:11):
for a change. And LinkedIn approached me during that period.
The CEO is Jeff Wiener then, and he said, now's
the time to come. Now is like it's the time
to change. And I didn't overthink it. I just said okay,
and within two weeks I had moved from media to
technology and become a career podcaster. Here's the thing, I
was deeply, deeply interested in the material. I loved it
(32:34):
in five years later it makes sense because I've been
doing it for five years. But in those early days,
it didn't make a lot of sense, and it felt
like going out on a limb. And just when I
had become established as a career podcaster, I wrote an
Uiguimushi memoir about my family and how everybody was gay.
(32:54):
By the way, I loved that project too. I can't
believe that I had a smart enough agent to see
the pandemic opportunity and say, now's the time for your
dream project. So then I stepped back and here I
had these three things right. I was a tech writer,
but I was a career podcaster. But I also as
a memoir writer. And I spent a long time thinking, well,
(33:15):
I have to choose. I have to choose, I have
to choose, And then I thought, no, I just have
to have the internal architecture to understand how they fit.
And that's where the personal brand part came in, because
I felt like if I could do that branding for myself,
if I could connect those dots for myself, I actually
didn't need to tell either of you how to connect
those dots. That the world would figure out how to
(33:37):
do that. And so I came up with the slogan
I'm going to read to you because you used it
when you introduced me, and I thought, oh, it worked.
I came up with rethinking work, life and meaning for
the contemporary age. And it doesn't matter to me if
you know it or anybody else knows it. What's important
is that I know it. So now I know what
to say yes to and what to say no to,
and how I will be seen in the world.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
And maybe the perfect way to summarize some of this
is going back to your point about being your own
best storyteller, is we feel so much pressure to see
it all before it happens. But the art sometimes is
having it happen and then learning how to make sense
of it and connect those dots in the rear view mirrors.
(34:19):
Like It's not like we can plot the future all perfectly,
but if you can look back and say so, the
reason I did these things is because this is the
through line that's part of making your brand and your
career and your life maybe makes sense.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
It's interesting because you know the famous quote luck is
when preparation meets opportunity. You know, you've been prepared and
you've been on that journey and you are a great storyteller.
But it also took someone like Jeff Wiener, who is
absolutely amazing and incredible kind of human businessman obviously former
CEO and now chairman of LinkedIn. You know, he saw
something in you that you did not necessarily see at
(34:57):
the time, and so I feel like you need both
sides of that, you know, equation. You were prepared, You
knew who you were, and you were kind of understanding
that your brand could be multi dimensional, that you were
not going to let other folks define you, and that
you wanted to kind of live with all these different
dimensions to your talent, to your superpowers. But it also
(35:18):
required someone to see that, and I feel like so
often we do not have the other side of that equation.
It really takes an incredible human from someone like Jeff Wiener. Two,
you know someone that's that LinkedIn. I'll give a shout
out to her. Rosanna de Ruthi, You're chief diversity officer
who saw something in me back when I was in college,
and I didn't even see that in myself. So I
(35:38):
feel like you were also lucky, but you were prepared
to meet that opportunity.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Well.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
And there's one more dimension I would add, which is
that we don't always realize the degree to which when
we live in the full truth of these opportunities, we
are also making room for other people, right, And so yes,
that is all true. And I was able to do
this because I could see people around me who were
living versions of a life that I wanted to live.
(36:07):
And not to get totally met at here, but Marissa,
you and I met. The first time that I remember
meeting you was actually at a dinner that the CEO
of Salesforce threw Mark Bennioff. And I'm sure you don't
remember this that well, although I mentioned it on LinkedIn
a while ago, so you might now. But you were
sitting there talking to me, and you had gone to
the same college I had gone to, and you had
(36:28):
these like really little kids, and you had this really
big job. And I was sitting there next to you
in my head silently thinking I've got really big career ambitions.
Everything's going the right way. Can I have kids? Is
this going to work? And I literally evaluated based on
the women I saw around me who were just like
one chapter ahead of me, who were doing it. That
(36:50):
was how I figured out I could do it. Wow,
and we just don't even realize the way in which
we are doing that for other people.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Well, on that note, Wow, that's deep stuff, Marissa, that's deep,
and it makes me think about why I started executive
bombs all those years ago. So it's true. It is
about I guess, paying it forward and then also being
able to look in the mirror and then also thinking
about it. Since you're an author of a book, it's chapters, right.
I've had to learn how to relax into the idea
(37:18):
that our lives and our careers really our chapters in
a book. And some are long, and some are dramatic,
and some are short, and some are awesome. And it's
like you just that's sort of I think that resilience
of thinking of just writing another chapter feels like an
appropriate way to cap this conversation. We come back. Can
we play our favorite game of cool or cringe with you?
Speaker 3 (37:39):
For sure?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Okay, we're back, Jesse. We've been playing our favorite game
of cool or Cringe, and we've got a few fun
ones for you. Will you play with Stephen and me?
Speaker 3 (37:56):
I love that idea.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
I'll do the first one.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
You're such a workplace expert tell us in the heat
of the summer, shorts in the office cooler cringe, ooh.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
Cringe, cringe. But I gotta say I feel like that's
so the gen exer in me because I was having
this conversation with a colleague, a series of colleagues recently
at LinkedIn, who were all in their twenties, and they
were pointing to the fact that actually, you can totally
pull off shortz. And in fact, I've been looking around
me and many women here at LinkedIn, no men so far,
(38:31):
but I don't know. Many women are wearing shorts and
shorts and blazers like suits. Right, so right, what if
your office is your home, Okay, then it doesn't matter
what you're wearing below the waist like you do you,
you do you.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Then it doesn't matter what's underneagategh right.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Cool or cringe? Working from home.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Definitely cringe in twenty twenty four, and I qualify that
by saying twenty twenty four, because this is the year
that the back line happened and all of the big
businesses actually including this one LinkedIn, said oh nope, now
there are rules. Now you've got to come back into
the office again.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
So is it cringe or just cringe in that societally
or corporately rather, I should say it's shifted because a
lot of us, including me, do work from home.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
Still, this is short term cringe. This is a short
term cringe because we're not going to stay this way corporately,
because we care too much about talent, and talent will
lead in this way. And so in twenty twenty five,
when you ask that question again, the answer is definitely
gonna be cool.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Oh that's interesting. Okay, So that's a fast turn.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
That's a prediction on a cooler cringe. That's our first.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
So here's one. What do you think of this phrase
through the lens of cooler cringe? A dream job cool?
Speaker 3 (39:47):
I'm going to go with cool.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
This brings us back to practical optimism. And I think
that if we are not dreaming when we think about
our jobs, we are not going to land in the
places that we love. In fact, we have a dream
job episode on Hello Monday. It is our most popular
episode this year. It is short. You can find it
on January first in our queue and it will take
(40:09):
you through a ten year plan that is is worth
your time, all.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Right, Jesse core cringe networking, and of course I gotta
do that in air quotes. Networking cool cringe.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
I mean you had to do air quotes. So it's
definitely cringe. Definitely cringe. But here's the thing. That's because
we are so skewed in what we're thinking about when
we think about what it means to network and how
to network. I think it's networking is like one of
those words like posting that has come to mean something
(40:39):
other than what we actually need from it. What we
need from it is human connection and that is really cool.
And anything that you do to foster it in your
life is going to move you ahead in your career.
But that's secondary. It's going to move you ahead in
your life.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Maybe the way to think about that is cool is
networking because it's in nate and it's something we should
do as people who are curious and ambitious and interested.
But networking with a capital end, maybe that's the cringe.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's a rebranding. I think it's
about connection. I agree with you, Jesse.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
All right. Well if that, thank you so much, Jesse.
We love having you on the pod. We love your pod.
Everyone please listen to Hello Monday and it is just
so great to have you my friend, and we wish
you all the best.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
Hey, thanks guys, super fun.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Thank you. All right, Well that was an awesome, awesome discussion, Morisa.
But now it's time for one of our favorite segments,
What's on your Mind? And our question of the week
comes from a listener named Claire. Think the two of
you are going to can as in can Lines, and
the answer is yes. Do you think creative awards are
getting it right with what they are awarding? That's a
(41:51):
little bit of a Pandora's box, Morris. I mean you
are kind of the creative guru here. Do you feel
that the right types of things are being celebrated awarded?
And I mean it just opens up this whole question
about you know, awards culture in general. That that will
be my add on to it. But what do you
feel about camlines these six.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
I would interpret the question that way in terms of
award culture and the fact that marketing advertising likes that
in general. And I think it's a great question and
one that I know I haven't been in a couple
of years, but when I've been there, it gets debated,
I think in a legitimate way, certainly by our chief
(42:28):
marketing officer community, because we're not just the artists. I mean,
all of this exists for commerce. It is art for commerce.
And so I think the real answer is it's great
to create recognition. Just create recognition for the right reasons
and recognize that it can't just be ooh, look at
that piece of work that you know, everyone in an
(42:52):
echo chamber thinks is amazing unless you can show how
it tied to a business impact. It's really, I think
a bit lacking in credibility in terms of what awards
for our industry should be doing. If then those awards
don't correlate to Wow, that work is amazing because it worked. Yeah,
(43:14):
what do you think.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
It's almost like, don't hate the player, you know, hate
the game. The game is that we love to award
each other. And it is seven that is not unique
to just marketing. Again, you go across the team's industries.
Entertainment also does the same thing. And so how do
you think the whole award circuit for whether it's you know,
an Oscar or Golden Globe or Emmys. I mean, it's
(43:39):
a lot of pay to play and you have to
have really big campaigns. I mean I just remember, you know,
from you know, the entertainment side, like just seeing what
needs to go in to actually do an Academy award
run like it is millions and millions of dollars, and
you really have to influence the journalists and the trades
and you wind them and dine them. And it's no
different from the marketing side, right because you know, people
(43:59):
believe on the creative agency side or the media agency
side that if we have this, it's going to help
us win more business. But I do feel something gets
lost in translation, and you know what is really the focus?
And that is a critique of this industry if you
really put yourself in the shoes of the CEO or
the CFO and you're like, what is going on here?
Like why is everyone celebrating? Like what does this have
to do with the business. I think there is a
(44:21):
large question mark in terms of what are we really
trying to do? I do feel that we need to
celebrate creativity. I think just it has gotten so bloated.
Not canlines only not just signaling them out, but if
you just look at the whole circuit all throughout the year,
there's so many awards. We're always celebrating each other, and
I love that, But at the same time, I do
(44:42):
feel that you kind of got to rein it in,
you know, like we really do need to focus on
the business, and I think there's a lot of pushback
where people feel like, you know what, I don't want
to show up there because I also don't want to
just be associated with, you know, kind of the rose
and all the fun, Like, how do you really have
the substance? How do you get really taken seriously about
the work.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Not to disagree with you, because I think we are
sort of saying similar things.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Please do well.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
I just feel like this is also a bit of
the old tape that gets played that gives us all
a bad name, and I think it's also somewhat undeserved
in the sense that recognition is a good thing in
the world. We work in pressured environments that are intense
and only have gotten more so. And when I remember
working at Taco Bell and the parent company. We called
(45:27):
it a recognition culture, and at first it seemed a
little corny to me, but I grew to just love
what was underneath it. And the idea is we all thrive,
especially frankly creative people. I'm feeling recognized. I think it's
really just as simple as saying, let's just recognize the
work for the right things, so that there's a legitimacy
to that recognition.
Speaker 2 (45:46):
Yeah, but that's the key, right, I'm all about recognition.
And again, I have my Spotlight series where I'm always
trying to shine a light on talent and I want
to recognize talent. You hit the nail on the head there, Right,
It's like, let's recognize the right things and when you have,
you know, kind of not like in a kid's soccer game,
like everyone gets a trophy, a participation trophy. I almost
(46:07):
feel sometimes it becomes that where like everyone gets a trophy,
I feel like really recognizing the work that really moved
the needle like that is where I feel like it
really translates into business results. That's why you know, I
think the Fies are one of my favorites because that's
really about business. Outcomes. But again, recognition for recognition sake.
I think it just needs to be put in context.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
Well, here's what I say, because I've been giving talks
about this and I'm really passionate about this. Is the
can Lions. It is the International Festival of Creativity. If
you go to the Dictionary definition of creativity, which clearly
I have. Yes, I'm a geek that way. Yes, creativity
is effectively new ways of solving problems. If I were
(46:50):
running can Lions, I'd want to rebrand what this convocation
of creativity is about, which is thinking collectively about how
to solve problems and stop making it just like the
visual output of advertising, and stop just sort of making it. Oh,
this year it's about the metaverse. O. This year it's
a I. But really about I mean, you have this
(47:12):
unique opportunity to have some of the best and brightest
minds around the world convened from check and advertising and
media and are all the things we talk about entertainment marketing, like,
let's solve problems together.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
That sounds a lot more appealing to me. I would
be much much more interested in that. And I love
the way that you just put on your marketer hat
and you reframe the problem because I think a lot
of these things have to do with the labels and
the definition how these terms are applied. And so even
like you know, our last conversation with you know, Gary
Vee about like a social post versus you know, like
an actual social advertising unit, like the language creates reality,
(47:49):
and so I love that reframing of it. So true,
So great question, Claire.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
If anyone doubts the power of brand and marketing, it's
look how powerful it is when things are framed either
the right way the wrong way. So anyway, we're happy
that you're here and joining us for brand New because
we keep talking about this. I'm sure we'll be talking
about cam when we come back in the meantime. That's
it for now. Please follow us at the Brand New
Podcast wherever you listen to your podcasts so you never
(48:15):
miss an episode, Tell your friends, share it, connect with
us on the socials, and join
Speaker 2 (48:20):
Us next time for What's brand New.
Hi, and welcome to Brand New from the iHeart Podcast
Network and Brand New Labs. I'm Marissa Fahlberg.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And I'm Stephen wolf be Aida. Marissa, there's been a
lot going on, and you're on the road. Where have
you been?
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Yes, I am as usual, I've been on the road.
You've been on the road. I'll tell you. One of
the cool things I was on the road for recently
was in the midst of New York Tech Week. It
ended with a breakfast event that I not only got
to attend, but I got to do one of the
introductions for women in ai A. I just keeps coming up,
(00:43):
but it needs to be because it's changing so rapidly
and it's becoming so pervasive. But the thing that really
struck me, and it just brings me back to why
I founded Executive Moms all those years ago, is man,
we've made a lot of progress and the world is changing,
but in some ways we are just not progressive enough
when it comes to gender equality. My friend, and thank god,
(01:05):
you're one of the advocates, but I'll tell you the
thing that's concerning.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
So sad we're we're still having this conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Well, we're still having it and what is interesting. And
I was diving into this a little bit more just
to prepare myself for how to set up these opening
remarks and did a little additional research. And boy, you
would think that technology would progress us. But the problem
is just like there's inequality and gender in the world
(01:31):
that is becoming not only present in AI, but it's
almost exacerbating the bias. And I'll give you a perfect example.
You want to hear this example, Yeah, okay. So let's
say that you're an author, hypothetically speaking, and you want
to use GENII tool to help you figure out the
plot for a novel. And you're like, okay, whatever tool
(01:53):
you're using, help me come up with a plot involving
a doctor and a nurse. The genii EE tool is
going to spit back that the doctor is a male
and the nurse is a female. That's a real example
that's not made up. And in fact, when a real
author did this and then said, AI, why are you
exhibiting this gender bias, the AI explained it was because
(02:15):
of the data it had been trained on. So this
is the problem. We're literally coding in bias and tech
is still very dominated by men, and so boy, does
this make the case for the importance of women being
at the table in business in general, but certainly as
AI progresses, because the bias is getting coded in because
(02:37):
women just aren't that present. Absolutely, yeah, we've solved them all, right, Yeah, Well,
only thirty percent of those working in AI right now,
according to the Global Gender Gap Report, are women. So
I was really really delighted to put this in a
more optimistic note, to see this rooftop in New York
(02:59):
filled with women and men too, but like young women,
technical women, I mean people from some of the leading companies,
including men. I mean really smart, technical, interesting, dynamic conversation,
and people really wanting to make a difference. So I'm
happy just to put women into this equation as we
(03:19):
continue to talk about the evolution of AI.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
But Marsa, we've solved all this, I mean, haven't we
solved all the women issues? I mean, like, why do
we still need to be talking about this?
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Agree?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Agree?
Speaker 1 (03:31):
I know I'm joking.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
But look, this is where we're not going to make
any progress until we actually see people get into positions
of power and influence. And you certainly are a woman
of power and influence, but we need to see more
women in tech specifically, No, I mean, as someone that's
come up through you know, tech, it's a sad though, right,
I mean, and it's not getting any better, and I
(03:55):
feel like there's a such ridiculous bias. And you know,
I know people are probably about these kind of conversations.
I mean, just look at the podcast, like you know
all in you know, you just got a bunch of
tech bros just doing their thing and talking their talk,
and that's great, but you're really not having an inclusive conversation.
And I don't know, it's it just feels that this
conversation it's not really progressing. And I'm tired of this incrementalism.
(04:19):
I want to see a step function change where you
actually really do see this because it is going to
be so defining again across all these different dimensions, whether
it's you know, women and how AI is going to
be kind of writing that script, or whether it has
to do with people of color, you know, seray Latinos,
which I'm very passionate about, but all these issues that
the bias gets to be reinforced.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
That's the thing. It's not like it's not getting better.
The scary part is is it getting worse because of
this perpetuation. So I know that sounds a little doom
and gloom, but the first way to fix it is
to recognize that there is a problem. Make sure you
have the right diverse perspectives at the table. To me,
that's the real benefit of diverse It is so that
(05:01):
that kind of bias isn't perpetuated anyway. That all sounds
very serious, but it was really lovely. And I'll tell you,
since I mentioned Executive Moms, which I founded so long ago,
I had such a good executive mom's moment. Can I
tell you In the course of going to this event,
our friends at Ai Trailblazers did this great summit, and
then you know the fact that they had the foresight
(05:21):
to have this breakfast. So you know my daughter Hannah,
who is legitimately working in this industry, she's in the biz.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Biz and she's one of our listeners.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
She is, and I wanted to make sure that I
got to see her too, like executive mom toggling. And
they said, we'll just bring her to dinner. And so
it is this lovely seated dinner party. She wasn't even
seated next to me. And you have that moment of like, oh,
that's how's that going to be? And then I'm just
sort of sitting watching her old court and having these
(05:53):
wonderful conversations. She's probably at least, if not more conversant
in all of this than I am at this point.
And it was just such an awesome mom moment of
realizing that she didn't need to be there just as
a favor as my daughter. She was there in her
own right. It was it was pretty wild. I gotta
tell you, I know you've got a few years before
(06:14):
you have that with your kids. So I'm showing you
the future. And that's a really cool part.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
That is a proud mama moment. I mean, I feel
that I have been trying to do something in the
opposite direction, which is, you know, less than the professional.
I've been trying to spend time with each of my
family members. I took my son on a trip and
we had a daddy son trip, and then I just
came back from a daddy daughter trip, our first and
(06:39):
again she's six, right, but it was just so interesting
to kind of see these you know, kind of little
humans in their own you know, kind of environment, not
influenced by like their sibling or whatever it is. It
was just very cool to see who she is and
her personality and how it's you know, kind of developing
it and just really having her beat. And it was
(07:03):
just fascinating to see these little you know, these little
things that you probably don't notice in the day day
and day out of you know, just daily life. But
you know, she's super organized and she's a planner, and
you know that's definitely part of my personality. You know,
I just saw her kind of like taking everything out
of her suitcase and putting it away, and so it's
just like all these little observations that I feel like
(07:24):
we missed those moments and really trying to spend that
one on one time with each of my children, and
then of course I'm going to be doing that with
my wife very soon, which is you know, we get
to have a kind of a couple time R and
we're going to go on our own little VAK. But
I feel, you know, just this urge, this need to
spend you know, kind of depth. I want quality time.
(07:44):
I don't want this superficial stuff. And I just feel
it's this craving for again authenticity, as we always talk about,
how do you really spend quality time. And this is
kind of on the eve of us going to can
where it's going to be you know, a ton of
people and we're going to see a bunch of folks
and it's great to see everyone, But where do you
really have a quality conversation. I'm just craving for that
(08:06):
ability to have real talk.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Well, I'll tell you. I mentioned now executive moms a
couple of times, and what you're discussing is, I think,
frankly a truth for executive parents, which is that when
we navigate the pressures of work, the time commitments, the
travel figuring out, it's never going to live in perfect
balance and harmony. That's just a false construct. But what
(08:29):
you're doing that, I think is such a great example
as finding ways to then create your own special moments
and your own special quality time. I always tried to
do that too, and create your own traditions and hopefully
over time it balances out. But you know, I'll tell you,
the world is changing so much and because of everything
we've been talking about tech of course, and the pressures
(08:51):
of business, and when we come back, we want to
really talk about it today, not through the lens of
tech but through the lens of all this change in
terms of work and how we should all be thinking
or could be thinking about our careers and gratification all that.
So coming right back, we're back, and we are talking
(09:16):
about careers of course in the industry specifically that we
focus on marketing, tech, media, advertising, entertainment, but this is
also for everyone, and for this conversation we asked our
friend Jesse Hempbal to join us today. Jesse is a
fellow graduate of Brown University. Go Bruno very excited about that,
(09:37):
and for nearly two decades, she's been writing and editing
about work and life and meaning in the contemporary age
for publications ranging from Wired, Fortune, Time, and Today. She
is both a senior editor at Large at LinkedIn and
the host of the award winning podcast Hello Monday. On
Hello Monday, Jesse's talked with guests like oh, Melinda Gates,
(10:01):
Seth Meyers, Elizabeth Gilbert to get into the kind of
questions I'm hoping we'll get into ourselves today, like what
does work mean to us? And should we love what
we do? And who do we need to be in
order to make it count? So, you know, nothing short
of those kinds of profound work life questions. Welcome, Jesse.
(10:22):
We're so happy to have you for those.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
I always love listening to someone else introduced me because
I'm like, oh, that person sounds way more important than
I feel.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Isn't that always the case that person? Yeah, well you
are pretty great. It was a worthy bio on an
accurate one.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Well, thank you, Jessie. It's great to see you. And
you know, we've been friends for a long time and
I'm a huge fan of your pots, So again, thanks
for being here. But I got to say I love
Hello Monday. And you've been doing for what five years now,
with like over two hundred and eighty guests. You know,
I'd really love to get your PUV just to kick off, Like,
what do you think is the most unexpected theme about
our relationship with work across all the different folks that you've.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Chatted with, It's exactly the right question is why the
show exists? Stephen. The biggest thing to keep in mind
is that no matter what you do, but particularly if
you work in the industries that we're talking about today,
the job that you have today, the title you have today,
is probably not going to be here in five years, right,
and I thought that was true in twenty eighteen. Now
(11:24):
I triple think that that's true. I understand deeply that's true.
But the things you know how to do and the
reasons why you are successful at what you do, there
will be an application for that. And so how long
Monday exists to help people take the things that they
already know how to do, that they're so good at
they may not even name or understand, and create the
(11:45):
opportunity that will exist for them in five years. And
do you know if they make a little more money
into a bigger title in the process, that's pretty good.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
It's fascinating because you know, we always hear about commencement speeches, right,
like it's that kind of time of year, and so
you know, these are going to be jobs in the
future that you can't even imagine that don't even exist.
But it really feels very true now obviously at this
intersection between tech and every single industry. But how do
you feel that it's beyond that right like we are
(12:12):
seeing this incredible accelerated pace. How do you see with
all the folks that you've interviewed, like, what really is
that you know through line? Is there some type of
connective tissue that you've kind of pieced together across all
the folks that you've chatted with.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
I love that you ask it that way, because there
is a through line, and that through line is curiosity
and the ability to sit with ambiguity right because whatever
you're doing right now, it may feel to you like
the ground is eroding beneath you. Jobs aren't shifting soon
in the future, they're shifting now.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Is that the life of a CMO, Marisa?
Speaker 1 (12:44):
I mean, oh, but going to be that? An AI?
The two drinking games you should play for How often
of those get mentioned?
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Well, do we have to talk about AI this early?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Definitely not, because we'll be drunk by the end of.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
What we know is like, we can't really figure out
what that new job in five years is going to be.
If we think we can, we're deluding ourselves. And if
you've worked in this industry a long time, you understand that.
You know, Bill Gates always gets credit for that quote,
but I actually don't think it was it was him
who introduced it. That idea that we usually overestimate what
will be possible in a year, but we underestimate what
(13:21):
will be possible in a decade, right, And so if
we know that to be true, if we take that
as a given, then it's my position and therefore the
position of Hello Monday, and really most of the people
bringing in the studio that the best way to prepare
for that is to be willing to play right, just
willing to like touch all the new things, consider all
(13:42):
the new things, be open minded about all the new things,
and drive a steady course and in the midst of
that to think strategically about the difference between a job
and a career, a set of skills and a set
of opportunities, and to identify what makes you unique.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Right.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
So that's sort of what we're trying to do with
the show. Long answer, but that's it.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Yeah, now, And by the way, that quote is actually
Roy Amher who's a famous you know, futurist scientist. You're
spot on. It wasn't Bill Gates, but you know, somehow
he said it the loudest, so it always goes to him.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
But yes, okay, and coming back to Chatchy BT, try
asking Chatchy BT who said that, and you will understand
all the problems with AI because everybody on the internet
says it's Bill Gates and so Chatchy BT gets kind
of confused and it's like, oh, Bill Gates said this.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Oh yeah, I mean, look, that is scratching at a
topic that we could go on for. We don't want
to make the podcast about AI. There's enough about that
it's impossible to avoid talking about it. To the joke
we made before, But I love that we're coming at
it from. I think this is a very human centered
conversation we're having, and I think your answer just sort
(14:52):
of scratched this. But I was going back to some
of your earlier episodes of Hello Monday. You did one
where you were picking up on the theme of I
love this idea practical optimism. There's a lot of intentional,
probably more unintentional fear mongering with careers right now because
of the uncertainty, because of as you said, living in
(15:12):
the ambiguity is part of it. So I would love
to just get your take, and maybe Steven you want
to add one too, on what's the practical optimism for
people like us in marketing and media to not feel
insecure by the nature of change, but to think about
the positive view of where careers can be going right now.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
As somebody in particular, who has covered technology in the
rise of Technology for twenty five years. I really do
believe that we create the future inner image, and that
if we go into that future, let's get a little
bit less ambiguous and more pragmatic here, Right, If we
begin our search for new opportunities with the belief that
(15:55):
AI is going to eat our lunch, and by the way,
we can't actually shift what we do anyway as well,
that that's actually going to be how it goes. And
if we start instead with the point of view that,
of course there are opportunities for us in the future.
Of course there are, and of course we have the
unique skills that are going to prepare us well for
those opportunities. And if we layer in this idea of
(16:16):
a growth mindset, which is an idea that comes up
over and over on our show, the future is going
to be better no matter what it is, and we
actually have the choice. We can go forward with fear
or we can go forward with that practical optimism. It
starts with understanding that we have the choice. Right. Is
growth mindset the kind of word that your listeners are
(16:37):
probably familiar with.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
I think so, I think some definitely maybe for you know,
some of our early career listeners maybe not so.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
This idea of growth mindset is that no matter the
set of skills you have, you are likely to achieve
more if you believe that you can learn. So I remember,
very early on in Hello Monday's existence, we had a
guest on whose job it was essentially to hire coaches
for pro football teams, and I asked him straight out like,
(17:08):
would you rather the most talented player or would you
rather a player who believes that he can get better
over time? And he was like a hands down, I'll
take the player who believes he can get better. And
I thought, well, that's interesting. In the following week, I
had Sachia Nadella into the studio. Now he's the CEO
of Microsoft, and he had then been in the job
for probably five six years. Now, it's been well more
(17:31):
than a decade, but you know, it was right around
the time where people were starting to look at Microsoft
and say, yeah, that is a profound turnaround. Somehow he
got a company that really didn't believe that it could
invent new things to believe in itself again. And I
asked him, you know, Sasha, how did you do this?
And he said, you know, I just focused on building
a culture around the idea of a growth mindset. I
(17:53):
focused on building a culture where people feel they can learn,
and everything else fell into place.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Seeing sat by the way, who's done an incredible job,
probably one of the most less celebrity tech CEOs, but
he certainly has just transformed that company. And I remember
seeing him at a Fortune event. In fact, I think
it was after you had left Jesse, but you know,
he was so humble about, you know, kind of his
management style and leadership, and I remember him being asked
(18:21):
a question and he just like looked, and you know,
he said, We're not focused on being the know it
all culture. We want to be the learn it all culture.
And I think that really is at the heart of
everything to do with a growth mindset. And it's interesting because,
you know, I struggle with this as a father because
I have two young kids and you know, my daughter six,
(18:43):
my son is going to be nine next month, and
I want them to have a growth mindset. And so
I believe, like I feel like I'm always a lifelong learner.
I tried to instill that in my kids. But it's
funny how a lot of adults and folks that have
been you know, kind of fossilized in their careers. They
get stuck. It's almost like the frozen in amber. And
I think part of it is like bad management, bad
(19:03):
leadership that never had someone to coach them and tell
them what they're doing well, what they're not doing well.
But if you do not have that growth mindset, you
don't have that ability to just learn it all, not
know at all, but learn it all. Really be that sponge.
It's easy to say, but it's really hard to do.
I feel like that's where you see a lot of
folks kind of go sideways in their careers.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
You know, people mess up a lot when they're like, Okay, yeah,
I got growth mindset. I just got to believe I
can do it. I mean, that's it, Like, Okay, I
believe I can do it. And if you walk away
with that as a message, you're going to lose. The
trick here to understanding how to deploy a growth mindset
is to be willing to learn how to learn again
(19:42):
as an adult. Right we need to actually take our
surroundings and figure out what the learning process is and
lean into that. And the other thing that I think
people maybe could sort of broaden their thinking around when
it comes to growth mindset. And we had a great
guest in a guy named Eric potter At who'd written
a book about performance culture. And Eric he had been
(20:04):
the chief psychologist, I believe for the Navy Seals for
a decade, so he was the person who was helping
a group of very elite performers to get into the
right mindset in their head. And he said, you have
to understand you have mindset for different things.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Right.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
So, Stephen, you just beautifully talked about yourself as a father.
You have one mindset as a father in another mindset
when you walk into your professional life and you're a
leader in another mindset, perhaps as a partner, And we
need to look at the ways in which you may
be embracing a growth mindset in one area and just
really missing the opportunity in another area. You don't even
(20:41):
see it. We go deep and we go often on
growth mindset on Hello Monday.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
What if you're in an employment situation though, where you
want to bring that attitude but you're not the CEO
or the president or and so you're or the hiring
manager and you're like, I'm here with my growth mindset.
But I mean, we see this all the time. Well,
you know this is a car company and you haven't
worked in automotives, so you're not qualified. How has doing
(21:09):
this podcast and your work at LinkedIn helped you dole
out advice to people when the circumstances around them don't
create a culture of growth mindset?
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Well, that's sort of like two different circumstances, And I'll
take the easy one first, which is like, how has
LinkedIn helped me do that? I came out of a
career in media, working in magazines where things like management
were not taught or enforced. I had one annual review
during the decade that I worked at Fortune. It was
about ten minutes long. There wasn't really a culture of management.
(21:40):
There was a culture of performance in like talent, and
it was creative and I loved that. I didn't know
anything different. But one joy of then transitioning from being
a journalist in media to being a journalist at a
tech company like LinkedIn is that it practices what it
preaches and it is an incredible management ma. And so
(22:01):
my manager, who is also a dear friend, guy named
Dan Roth, who is the editor in chief of LinkedIn,
we have these collaborative sessions every couple of weeks, these
like how can I move the obstacles out of your
way sessions? How can I help you grow? And so
that's what I hope for for everybody, by the way, right,
But of course that's not how work works.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
I know that. But it's also very industry dependent. Now
that I'm back in media, I feel like I've worked
in a lot of different industries, you know, from finance
to tech to media to advertising, and there are certain nuances,
there's certain constructs to the way an industry operates to
what is expected certainly, everything from the way you treat
(22:39):
people to you know, kind of the people that get promoted,
to the leadership styles. And I almost feel like that
is part of your own icky guy right, Like you know,
for all the listeners out there, like you really need
to figure out how to kind of fit in with
not just what you're good at and what you love
and what the world needs, but to what you get
paid for finding the industry that's going to be the
(23:00):
right almost personality fit because there are differences.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
Look, and you're gonna have a bad boss even at
a really great company. You know, by the time you
get to the middle of your career, I would be
shocked if you didn't have somebody who, for whatever reason,
either wasn't in a place to help you grow or
wasn't in a place to be recognize themselves. And actually
we did a whole episode down it was called how
(23:23):
to have a good day at a bad job, because
we've all had them, right, and so you have sort
of two opportunities in those moments. One is to step
back and say, Okay, well, what can I learn from
this bad boss situation that I'm in and make for
yourself like three goals. You know, I am going to
learn how to effectively communicate with people who don't share
(23:44):
my point of view. I am going to learn how
to hold my tongue even when I know this is
terrible idea, whatever it is. And then secondarily, this is
when I think you really need to be like out
looking for other opportunities. And here's the thing. When you
have a bad boss, sometimes you begin to internalize whatever
(24:05):
you're hearing in the microculture that is your work, right,
And I'm going to just guess that in those moments
your own confidence is flagging. You don't necessarily have the
perspective to understand what your gifts are. And so that's
also a really good opportunity for a coach, frankly, for
somebody who can help you have a bigger point of
view and help you find the back door out of
(24:27):
what you're doing into something that is going to elevate you.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
I actually do a lot of coaching Jesse, and you know,
it's fascinating to hear how the environment, the words that
people say on a daily basis, the way they describe you,
you almost forget who you are, You forget your talents,
your superpowers, and that this language that is not your reality.
You know who you are, you know what you bring
(24:51):
to the table. But when you're in a toxic environment
or you know, maybe just not an uplifting one, a
nurturing one, that's where you really need need to pull
that record and you really need to protect yourself because
you're better than that and you deserve more. And I
think maybe this leads into the next question. I feel
like some people are old school where they want to
(25:13):
see this very linear progression on a resume or a
LinkedIn profile these days, and it's like, oh, well, you
need to be ex period of time at this company
and then this company. But that's not the case anymore.
And I have this debate with so many folks, you know,
certainly folks that are probably late forties or early fifties
and beyond that want to see the traditional path and
(25:34):
they want to see you at a place for a
long time. And if you've quote unquote hopped around a lot,
well that's negative, that's a red flag. I was literally
debating this with a buddy of mine who's a CEO
at a farmer company, and he was like, I wouldn't
hire those people if they hopped around a lot, And
I'm like, you're missing the point. Man. Like for you know, millennials,
gen z, they view this differently, and I feel like
(25:54):
there is this real changing of the guard, but maybe
the guard isn't changing because all those people are still
in those positions of power. So how do you view
the modern day resume, the LinkedIn resume, if you will,
and kind of the tenure that you need to have
to be viewed as successful.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
I think you need to be your own best storyteller,
and that is your opportunity if you've been somewhere for
fifteen years. I actually am going to sort of cast
a shade of doubt on that. As a hier I'm
going to wonder why you need to be able to
explain why you've been there for fifteen years, if you've
changed jobs every eighteen months. I'm also going to wonder,
but if you can explain why you have done that
(26:30):
and what you have looked to learn at each step,
that's the thing I'm looking for. Then I get it now. Obviously,
I think LinkedIn is a wonderful platform to explain it on.
It's not the only one.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Though, it was a pretty damn good one. I mean, no,
I'm just going to say it's full disclosure. It is
my favorite platform, and I've been on it for a
long time. I'm an og and you know I love
it well.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
I will say you had Gary Vee recently on the
show and he was preaching that everybody should post once
a day, and I thought, gosh, I work here and
I don't post once a day.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
And it was a reminder that debate that little with
Steven because I love it too, but I don't post
every day. No.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
It was a reminder that strategy is our friend here, right,
and being strategic is always a better choice than simply
blanketing whatever channel you have. And I would also say Steven,
and I don't know if this is an experience either
of you had, but it feels like something that I
see and hear a lot, especially if we have been
hyper successful in the early years of our careers. We
(27:27):
go along, we go along, and maybe we enter in
our twenties. At some point we enter the front door
of our careers and we believe life is a meritocracy
because that's what we've been told, particularly if we're gen
X and millennial. I think maybe we're giving gen Z
like a broader idea of life at this point. But
then we get to like around our mid thirties, and
inevitably we look up and we're like, oh, hey, hey,
(27:49):
the game is kind of rigged. Actually I didn't see
this coming. But like people who look like me, or
think like me, or talk like me, whatever that is
for you, in whatever way you feel differ than the
mainstream culture in your office, they don't seem to get
ahead in the same way. And then secondarily you do
this other calculation where you say, I have been trying
(28:11):
to get ahead within the value context of my organization,
but what are my own values and how do I
separate them, And that, to me is this huge moment
that goes on for most professionals I would say in
their mid to late thirties, but it can skew a
bunch of years on either side of that. But then
there's also like this pivot opportunity then, and Hell on
(28:33):
Monday is also very much about that pivot opportunity. How
do you get clear on what is actually your unique
path and then, especially if it's really different than whatever
your day job is right now, how do you lay
the groundwork to move toward it? Then? How do you
have the confidence to know that you can, in fact
you should, it is your birthright.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
I mean, Immersy, this is a whole another pod. Like
we just talked about this whole topic. I mean, I
think both of us are so passionate about it's in fact,
part of the reason why we started this pot in
the first place, right, Mersa, No.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
I'm sitting here thinking, there's so many places I want
to take this conversation now, and I feel like I
am actually sitting here staring at multiple forks in the
conversational road because it's so true, and I think there's
a lot of people are feeling that, which is why
I asked you to kind of give us the positive
optimism spin on the uncertainty, which I think that is
(29:26):
partly that I think there is about the questions that
Jesse and I were talking about the other day about
your own brand and how you shape it, and I
was thinking, it's a bit It's funny, isn't that a
bit chicken an egg? I mean, when Steve and I
were starting this, a whole idea of brand new, and
we knew there were like a lot of meanings in
the word brand that were relevant for this. So you know,
(29:47):
you talk about that as you're building your own brand
has evolved, right You start as a tech journalists, now
you're talking careers and you're also an author of a
memoir that about your family and whole family coming out
of the closet. I mean, the start like they're not pivots.
I don't like that word. That sounds like sharp term.
But it is about evolution and your brand evolving with you.
And I'm curious how you've you've thought about that for yourself,
(30:11):
but you're in a position to give a lot of
advice about that through the lens of career with your
different platforms.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
I began my career really happily as a tech journalist.
I just really loved writing about tech, love writing about
tech and the business of tech, and I understood deeply
who my readers were. In fact, the two of you
were two people I would think of as the ideal readers.
People were making moves in the industry and cared as
(30:37):
much as I did about who the next investor in
Facebook was going to be and whether Twitter was really
going to survive to see another day, which is like,
we're almost to the answer, no, but we're not quite
there yet.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
It's a sad ending. We could all agree. It's not
what we My wife used to work there, I remember
og Twitter, and it's just a very sad state of affairs.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
It's not where we saw go.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
I'm not sure X marks the spot, let's put it
that way. But talk about brand, talk about brand from
the lens of personal evolution.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
Well, so then there was this moment when I was
tired of it, but I was like, but that's what
I do. That moment that I was tired of it
coincided with probably my highest personal brand moment in Silicon Valley.
I remember when I realized I was like too burnt
out to continue. And I was opening Mobile World Congress
in twenty sixteen by interviewing Mark Zuckerberg on stage, and
(31:29):
I had like come all the way to Barcelona, Spain
for this event, and I was staying in this hotel
that Facebook had like bought out the entire hotel and
its executives were all on the eighth floor and then
I was down on the fourth floor. No one else
was allowed in, like this was a big deal. It
could have been Madonna, it could have been Taylor Swift,
like whoa. And I went on stage with him and
(31:51):
it went fine. And I left that stage and I thought,
oh dear, if I keep doing this, I will die inside.
But this is the thing that everybody knows what I do?
What do I do in that moment? Well, it collided
with the personal moment like be fully transparent, which is
that my wife was pregnant and having children, and I
kind of stepped back and I was like, it's time
(32:11):
for a change. And LinkedIn approached me during that period.
The CEO is Jeff Wiener then, and he said, now's
the time to come. Now is like it's the time
to change. And I didn't overthink it. I just said okay,
and within two weeks I had moved from media to
technology and become a career podcaster. Here's the thing, I
was deeply, deeply interested in the material. I loved it
(32:34):
in five years later it makes sense because I've been
doing it for five years. But in those early days,
it didn't make a lot of sense, and it felt
like going out on a limb. And just when I
had become established as a career podcaster, I wrote an
Uiguimushi memoir about my family and how everybody was gay.
(32:54):
By the way, I loved that project too. I can't
believe that I had a smart enough agent to see
the pandemic opportunity and say, now's the time for your
dream project. So then I stepped back and here I
had these three things right. I was a tech writer,
but I was a career podcaster. But I also as
a memoir writer. And I spent a long time thinking, well,
(33:15):
I have to choose. I have to choose, I have
to choose, And then I thought, no, I just have
to have the internal architecture to understand how they fit.
And that's where the personal brand part came in, because
I felt like if I could do that branding for myself,
if I could connect those dots for myself, I actually
didn't need to tell either of you how to connect
those dots. That the world would figure out how to
(33:37):
do that. And so I came up with the slogan
I'm going to read to you because you used it
when you introduced me, and I thought, oh, it worked.
I came up with rethinking work, life and meaning for
the contemporary age. And it doesn't matter to me if
you know it or anybody else knows it. What's important
is that I know it. So now I know what
to say yes to and what to say no to,
and how I will be seen in the world.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
And maybe the perfect way to summarize some of this
is going back to your point about being your own
best storyteller, is we feel so much pressure to see
it all before it happens. But the art sometimes is
having it happen and then learning how to make sense
of it and connect those dots in the rear view mirrors.
(34:19):
Like It's not like we can plot the future all perfectly,
but if you can look back and say so, the
reason I did these things is because this is the
through line that's part of making your brand and your
career and your life maybe makes sense.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
It's interesting because you know the famous quote luck is
when preparation meets opportunity. You know, you've been prepared and
you've been on that journey and you are a great storyteller.
But it also took someone like Jeff Wiener, who is
absolutely amazing and incredible kind of human businessman obviously former
CEO and now chairman of LinkedIn. You know, he saw
something in you that you did not necessarily see at
(34:57):
the time, and so I feel like you need both
sides of that, you know, equation. You were prepared, You
knew who you were, and you were kind of understanding
that your brand could be multi dimensional, that you were
not going to let other folks define you, and that
you wanted to kind of live with all these different
dimensions to your talent, to your superpowers. But it also
(35:18):
required someone to see that, and I feel like so
often we do not have the other side of that equation.
It really takes an incredible human from someone like Jeff Wiener. Two,
you know someone that's that LinkedIn. I'll give a shout
out to her. Rosanna de Ruthi, You're chief diversity officer
who saw something in me back when I was in college,
and I didn't even see that in myself. So I
(35:38):
feel like you were also lucky, but you were prepared
to meet that opportunity.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Well.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
And there's one more dimension I would add, which is
that we don't always realize the degree to which when
we live in the full truth of these opportunities, we
are also making room for other people, right, And so yes,
that is all true. And I was able to do
this because I could see people around me who were
living versions of a life that I wanted to live.
(36:07):
And not to get totally met at here, but Marissa,
you and I met. The first time that I remember
meeting you was actually at a dinner that the CEO
of Salesforce threw Mark Bennioff. And I'm sure you don't
remember this that well, although I mentioned it on LinkedIn
a while ago, so you might now. But you were
sitting there talking to me, and you had gone to
the same college I had gone to, and you had
(36:28):
these like really little kids, and you had this really
big job. And I was sitting there next to you
in my head silently thinking I've got really big career ambitions.
Everything's going the right way. Can I have kids? Is
this going to work? And I literally evaluated based on
the women I saw around me who were just like
one chapter ahead of me, who were doing it. That
(36:50):
was how I figured out I could do it. Wow,
and we just don't even realize the way in which
we are doing that for other people.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Well, on that note, Wow, that's deep stuff, Marissa, that's deep,
and it makes me think about why I started executive
bombs all those years ago. So it's true. It is
about I guess, paying it forward and then also being
able to look in the mirror and then also thinking
about it. Since you're an author of a book, it's chapters, right.
I've had to learn how to relax into the idea
(37:18):
that our lives and our careers really our chapters in
a book. And some are long, and some are dramatic,
and some are short, and some are awesome. And it's
like you just that's sort of I think that resilience
of thinking of just writing another chapter feels like an
appropriate way to cap this conversation. We come back. Can
we play our favorite game of cool or cringe with you?
Speaker 3 (37:39):
For sure?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Okay, we're back, Jesse. We've been playing our favorite game
of cool or Cringe, and we've got a few fun
ones for you. Will you play with Stephen and me?
Speaker 3 (37:56):
I love that idea.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
I'll do the first one.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
You're such a workplace expert tell us in the heat
of the summer, shorts in the office cooler cringe, ooh.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
Cringe, cringe. But I gotta say I feel like that's
so the gen exer in me because I was having
this conversation with a colleague, a series of colleagues recently
at LinkedIn, who were all in their twenties, and they
were pointing to the fact that actually, you can totally
pull off shortz. And in fact, I've been looking around
me and many women here at LinkedIn, no men so far,
(38:31):
but I don't know. Many women are wearing shorts and
shorts and blazers like suits. Right, so right, what if
your office is your home, Okay, then it doesn't matter
what you're wearing below the waist like you do you,
you do you.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Then it doesn't matter what's underneagategh right.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Cool or cringe? Working from home.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Definitely cringe in twenty twenty four, and I qualify that
by saying twenty twenty four, because this is the year
that the back line happened and all of the big
businesses actually including this one LinkedIn, said oh nope, now
there are rules. Now you've got to come back into
the office again.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
So is it cringe or just cringe in that societally
or corporately rather, I should say it's shifted because a
lot of us, including me, do work from home.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
Still, this is short term cringe. This is a short
term cringe because we're not going to stay this way corporately,
because we care too much about talent, and talent will
lead in this way. And so in twenty twenty five,
when you ask that question again, the answer is definitely
gonna be cool.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Oh that's interesting. Okay, So that's a fast turn.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
That's a prediction on a cooler cringe. That's our first.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
So here's one. What do you think of this phrase
through the lens of cooler cringe? A dream job cool?
Speaker 3 (39:47):
I'm going to go with cool.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
This brings us back to practical optimism. And I think
that if we are not dreaming when we think about
our jobs, we are not going to land in the
places that we love. In fact, we have a dream
job episode on Hello Monday. It is our most popular
episode this year. It is short. You can find it
on January first in our queue and it will take
(40:09):
you through a ten year plan that is is worth
your time, all.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Right, Jesse core cringe networking, and of course I gotta
do that in air quotes. Networking cool cringe.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
I mean you had to do air quotes. So it's
definitely cringe. Definitely cringe. But here's the thing. That's because
we are so skewed in what we're thinking about when
we think about what it means to network and how
to network. I think it's networking is like one of
those words like posting that has come to mean something
(40:39):
other than what we actually need from it. What we
need from it is human connection and that is really cool.
And anything that you do to foster it in your
life is going to move you ahead in your career.
But that's secondary. It's going to move you ahead in
your life.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Maybe the way to think about that is cool is
networking because it's in nate and it's something we should
do as people who are curious and ambitious and interested.
But networking with a capital end, maybe that's the cringe.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's a rebranding. I think it's
about connection. I agree with you, Jesse.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
All right. Well if that, thank you so much, Jesse.
We love having you on the pod. We love your pod.
Everyone please listen to Hello Monday and it is just
so great to have you my friend, and we wish
you all the best.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
Hey, thanks guys, super fun.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Thank you. All right, Well that was an awesome, awesome discussion, Morisa.
But now it's time for one of our favorite segments,
What's on your Mind? And our question of the week
comes from a listener named Claire. Think the two of
you are going to can as in can Lines, and
the answer is yes. Do you think creative awards are
getting it right with what they are awarding? That's a
(41:51):
little bit of a Pandora's box, Morris. I mean you
are kind of the creative guru here. Do you feel
that the right types of things are being celebrated awarded?
And I mean it just opens up this whole question
about you know, awards culture in general. That that will
be my add on to it. But what do you
feel about camlines these six.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
I would interpret the question that way in terms of
award culture and the fact that marketing advertising likes that
in general. And I think it's a great question and
one that I know I haven't been in a couple
of years, but when I've been there, it gets debated,
I think in a legitimate way, certainly by our chief
(42:28):
marketing officer community, because we're not just the artists. I mean,
all of this exists for commerce. It is art for commerce.
And so I think the real answer is it's great
to create recognition. Just create recognition for the right reasons
and recognize that it can't just be ooh, look at
that piece of work that you know, everyone in an
(42:52):
echo chamber thinks is amazing unless you can show how
it tied to a business impact. It's really, I think
a bit lacking in credibility in terms of what awards
for our industry should be doing. If then those awards
don't correlate to Wow, that work is amazing because it worked. Yeah,
(43:14):
what do you think.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
It's almost like, don't hate the player, you know, hate
the game. The game is that we love to award
each other. And it is seven that is not unique
to just marketing. Again, you go across the team's industries.
Entertainment also does the same thing. And so how do
you think the whole award circuit for whether it's you know,
an Oscar or Golden Globe or Emmys. I mean, it's
(43:39):
a lot of pay to play and you have to
have really big campaigns. I mean I just remember, you know,
from you know, the entertainment side, like just seeing what
needs to go in to actually do an Academy award
run like it is millions and millions of dollars, and
you really have to influence the journalists and the trades
and you wind them and dine them. And it's no
different from the marketing side, right because you know, people
(43:59):
believe on the creative agency side or the media agency
side that if we have this, it's going to help
us win more business. But I do feel something gets
lost in translation, and you know what is really the focus?
And that is a critique of this industry if you
really put yourself in the shoes of the CEO or
the CFO and you're like, what is going on here?
Like why is everyone celebrating? Like what does this have
to do with the business. I think there is a
(44:21):
large question mark in terms of what are we really
trying to do? I do feel that we need to
celebrate creativity. I think just it has gotten so bloated.
Not canlines only not just signaling them out, but if
you just look at the whole circuit all throughout the year,
there's so many awards. We're always celebrating each other, and
I love that, But at the same time, I do
(44:42):
feel that you kind of got to rein it in,
you know, like we really do need to focus on
the business, and I think there's a lot of pushback
where people feel like, you know what, I don't want
to show up there because I also don't want to
just be associated with, you know, kind of the rose
and all the fun, Like, how do you really have
the substance? How do you get really taken seriously about
the work.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Not to disagree with you, because I think we are
sort of saying similar things.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Please do well.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
I just feel like this is also a bit of
the old tape that gets played that gives us all
a bad name, and I think it's also somewhat undeserved
in the sense that recognition is a good thing in
the world. We work in pressured environments that are intense
and only have gotten more so. And when I remember
working at Taco Bell and the parent company. We called
(45:27):
it a recognition culture, and at first it seemed a
little corny to me, but I grew to just love
what was underneath it. And the idea is we all thrive,
especially frankly creative people. I'm feeling recognized. I think it's
really just as simple as saying, let's just recognize the
work for the right things, so that there's a legitimacy
to that recognition.
Speaker 2 (45:46):
Yeah, but that's the key, right, I'm all about recognition.
And again, I have my Spotlight series where I'm always
trying to shine a light on talent and I want
to recognize talent. You hit the nail on the head there, Right,
It's like, let's recognize the right things and when you have,
you know, kind of not like in a kid's soccer game,
like everyone gets a trophy, a participation trophy. I almost
(46:07):
feel sometimes it becomes that where like everyone gets a trophy,
I feel like really recognizing the work that really moved
the needle like that is where I feel like it
really translates into business results. That's why you know, I
think the Fies are one of my favorites because that's
really about business. Outcomes. But again, recognition for recognition sake.
I think it just needs to be put in context.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
Well, here's what I say, because I've been giving talks
about this and I'm really passionate about this. Is the
can Lions. It is the International Festival of Creativity. If
you go to the Dictionary definition of creativity, which clearly
I have. Yes, I'm a geek that way. Yes, creativity
is effectively new ways of solving problems. If I were
(46:50):
running can Lions, I'd want to rebrand what this convocation
of creativity is about, which is thinking collectively about how
to solve problems and stop making it just like the
visual output of advertising, and stop just sort of making it. Oh,
this year it's about the metaverse. O. This year it's
a I. But really about I mean, you have this
(47:12):
unique opportunity to have some of the best and brightest
minds around the world convened from check and advertising and
media and are all the things we talk about entertainment marketing, like,
let's solve problems together.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
That sounds a lot more appealing to me. I would
be much much more interested in that. And I love
the way that you just put on your marketer hat
and you reframe the problem because I think a lot
of these things have to do with the labels and
the definition how these terms are applied. And so even
like you know, our last conversation with you know, Gary
Vee about like a social post versus you know, like
an actual social advertising unit, like the language creates reality,
(47:49):
and so I love that reframing of it. So true,
So great question, Claire.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
If anyone doubts the power of brand and marketing, it's
look how powerful it is when things are framed either
the right way the wrong way. So anyway, we're happy
that you're here and joining us for brand New because
we keep talking about this. I'm sure we'll be talking
about cam when we come back in the meantime. That's
it for now. Please follow us at the Brand New
Podcast wherever you listen to your podcasts so you never
(48:15):
miss an episode, Tell your friends, share it, connect with
us on the socials, and join
Speaker 2 (48:20):
Us next time for What's brand New.
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