September 10, 2024 • 42 mins
As summer winds down and everyone gets back to business, Steven and Marisa are talking the business of marketing and the media in a multi-part series tackling the divide that exists (but shouldn't!) between those who control the purse strings ,and those who control the brand and audience string. Joining them on this episode is one of the most prominent analysts in media and technology: Rich Greenfield. Covering everything happening across the worlds of media, tech and entertainment, from whether we will still be buying the same bundles to the drama around Paramount, pass the popcorn and join in a conversation, made as always for experts and casual observers alike.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hi, and thanks for joining us on brand new from
the iHeart Podcast Network and brand new webs I'm Marissa Thalberg.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
And I'm Stephen wolf Data.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Stephen, it was really good to be together with you
in LA last week, especially because you've been traveling. You
were out of the country. As we talked about last time.
I was happy to travel to the West Coast see
some friends.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Having you in the West Coast is the best, the
absolute best. You belong here. We miss you, California, missus you,
thank you for bringing sunshine.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Thank you, I miss it.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Well.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
It does show that there's nothing quite as good as
being in person. Even though I stand by our earlier
episode on hybrid work, but we do. We are hybrid
work people. It's just nice to be together. I know
you were playing a lot of catch up and meetings.
I had some really good meetings.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Who you meet with when you were in all.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
It was a little bit of working remotely, a little
bit of piggybacking on David's nonprofit clients event Comfort Cases.
We should talk about that, your husband or some wisers
that don't know everyone knows now, but we should talk
about that's a really good cause. Well, maybe we'll bring
(01:25):
the CEO of Comfort Cases onto a future episode, and
we were out there for that and then some of
the other little cool side things I've been working on.
You know, one of the meetings that I had was
finally getting together with the founder of the VC firm
that I advise. I'm one of a bunch of executive advisors.
It's very lightweight. It's an incredible peer community, though, and
(01:47):
it was nice being in person with him for a once.
And I know that that's your world. I mean, you
come out of that finance world, you still play in
that world, and it's just so interesting having that level
of being a partner and feeling respected and advising him
because I still feel like there's this prevailing issue and
we've talked about it periodically across various episodes. Remember back
(02:11):
in our episode with Phil Thomas, the chairman of Canich
totally money the money people coming to can that there's
still this weird lack of speaking the same language, like
need for un translators when it comes to the money
people and the marketers.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
I affectionately think of it as remember the old book,
men are from Mars and women are from Venus. Oh yeah,
back in the day yeah, I feel that it's a
little bit of very different languages. They focus on different things,
they operate in different circles, and it's a shame because
everyone wants the same outcome, right, Everyone is trying to grow,
(02:50):
everyone's trying to really figure out how to increase shareholder value.
But the way that I think the marketing community thinks
about it is very different from the financial community, and
for whatever reason, they just don't really operate in the
same circles. That's why it's actually exciting to see either
investors you know, from private equity, venture capital coming to
places I can, but they still don't know no at
(03:11):
the end of the day, you know, they are financiers,
they're not operators, and so they sometimes don't even know
the right questions. So that's why you advising, you know,
this VC firm is actually really impactful, and I hope
they appreciate that and they're taking care of you.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Look, it's a very lightweight thing, and for me, you
do things like this as much to learn as to
add value. And that was my reason for saying yes
to it a while ago. But it's just another reminder
or maybe a contrast to then the unfavorable situations we
see where it's just so incredibly frustrating that everyone thinks
(03:46):
they're a marketer. By the way, we've known that forever
in this industry. Everyone thinks they're a media expert. But
what's so tough now is just the changing nature of
the landscape and the expectations and somehow we do we
need like almost like a big un summit of the
money and the marketers, because there should be trust there
(04:08):
and that's called being collegial and being on the same
team and being partners, and I hate that it doesn't
always feel that way.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Again, we have to define terms, and we have to
really be very clear of what our assumptions are. Now
we're assuming that, you know, we want that, and they
also want that. I would say a lot of you know,
kind of the folks that I know in finance, you know,
they actually have a real disdain for marketing. They truly
view it as a cost line item.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
That makes me so sad because it's not.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
I know, and again they're like, hey, like, why do
we have to invest all this money? Where is the return?
A lot of it is unmeasurable, and so it's all
the same tropes and it's twenty twenty four. It's not
the case. And I just don't understand how any business
that is looking to grow if they do not understand
the value of marketing, which is truly investing in the brand,
(05:00):
which is ultimately the full value of the company.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
It's misinformation, Stephen, I th use election year terms. It's misinformation.
We've got to debunk it.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
But we have a really unique opportunity to really bring
these tours. I love the way you're frame it, you know,
the marketing and the money. If we can actually have
this dialogue, and so I think that's a little bit
of the spirit of what we want to do with
you know, I guess it's back to school. You know,
it's September, So let's kind of really help our listeners,
you know, kind of get a little bit of an
inside peak, again from an operator per point of view.
(05:30):
But what's kind of brings some folks that will have
this perspective, whether you know, we agree with it or not.
But I think it's important to have this dialogue.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
I agree. I'm excited to we are not just back
to school, but where everyone's sort of back to business.
A lot of people never feel like they left that
speaks to our topic last week of not knowing how
to take a break in American work culture. But for
those who did, I mean, for sure, it's sort of
that back to business, and I think it is a
good time for us to tackle this and do it
(05:59):
in multi episode kind of way. And we've got a
great guess that we're bringing on for the very first,
very first crack at it. But I just think this
is such an important topic and we're gonna have Rich
Greenfield join us in a little bit. You know, it's
particularly poignant when you talk to someone like Rich, who's
like one of the top media analysts out there, right,
(06:21):
because we're also coming into a season in the latter
part of a year, I should say, we're the continued
blowing up of traditional media companies and sales and rebundling.
I mean, it's just every year it's like, oh, this
can't be meant anything more dramatic than this, And then
it's more dramatic, like what's happening with Paramount and others.
(06:44):
So it'll be interesting to talk about that and also
then through the lens of what does it mean for
brands and marketers and the money that follows.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Careful what you wish for you may you live in
interesting times. Right, So a little bit on Rich. I've
known Rich, you know, for probably almost two decades at
this point. He's a dear friend. He's probably one of
the smartest folks that I know on on Wall Street
that has really been I think the best Wall Street
analyst on media technology. He launched his own firm called
(07:12):
Lightshead Partners a few years ago. Before that, he was
at BTI G Research. Again. He was just calling balls
and strikes. He would literally go on calls, you know,
whether it was Bob Iger, you know, the CEO of
Disney or you know, you name the company, you know,
tech companies, media companies, and he was always asking the
hard questions. I mean so hard in fact, that sometimes
he would get blocked. I mean I remember famously Bob
(07:34):
Iger blocked him from, you know, asking any more questions
on the earnings calls because you know, either they were
too hard they didn't want to answer it. But I
feel like having someone like Rich, you know, kind of
come on shair. His perspective is going to be really great.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
So we'll be right back with him, and we're back
and we're excited to have the Rich Greenfield from Lightsheed
Partners here, as I guess, I'm brand new.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Welcome, Rich, Welcome.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
I mean it's brand new to be on brand new,
I guess, So can we still say brand How long
can you go with brand new? Is it the entire
first year that you're brand new?
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Something's always brand new, So it's evergreen.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
It is ever green, evergreen, just like your background. Rich. Honestly,
like it's been such a crazy twelve months with everything
that's been happening in the industry. You know, Marissa, I
think you want to maybe lob the first question, but
like there's so much to talk about with all the disruption,
and of course we're going to mention AI. But Marissa,
why don't you kick it off? Okay?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
I will. We have a lot of places we want
to go in this conversation, Rich, especially with your expertise
across the media landscape, and we're going to go there.
But let's start through the lens of brands and advertising
in this completely disrupted world with media. I will go there.
As I said a little further, what do you think
happens to advertising now as we go forward? I know
(08:56):
it was a lot easier when I started, but it's
changing by the men. What's your point of view from
observing it all?
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Well, you know, it's funny when I started, I started
Goldman Sacks back in nineteen ninety five covering this crazy sector,
and I remember sort of the old Jade commentary that like,
nobody ever got fired for buying broadcast television or just
TV in general, right, Like it was just rinse and repeat,
like it didn't matter that you were having fewer eyeballs.
And I remember presentations, Oh, you could buy this much
(09:25):
cable TV and effectively get to the reach of what
you could do on broadcast, Like there was all these
like but again it was like this was what everybody did.
You bought liney your TV, that's how you sold your products. Sports, yes,
sports was great, but it wasn't even just sports. People
were watching primetime TV, they were watching morning TV, they
were watching afternoon TV. And Marisa, I think the big
(09:48):
question mark now is we're living in a world where
what's the cure for boredom. The cure for boredom is
not turning on your TV anymore, right Like the cure
for boredom is opening up TikTok or Instagram and scrolling
through reels and maybe it's snapping your friends, but like
the change in consumer behavior And I think what is
(10:09):
really most interesting for marketers to think about is we've
had this rapid shift towards short form content, and I
sort of think about it as forget about where we
are now, but think about as this whole generation grows up,
Like are they even going to have the patience to
watch something that's ten minutes twenty minutes, let alone an
(10:29):
hour or two hours? Like what does that mean for
you know, watching you know, not just TV and movies,
what does it mean for sports? Like that whole thing.
It's really interesting in terms of how you think about
how do you engage consumers, not just in twenty twenty four,
but I'm thinking, like, you know, as we move over
the next decade, you think about how much has changed
in the last few years, and you know, you think about,
(10:51):
like just this week, what was the big news. YouTube
Now is the largest share of TV time spend? Right,
Like I remember where like YouTube got itself on the
TV and like, you know, it was like, oh okay,
so YouTube is here, and like what is that to watch?
Like kid videos? Like right, you know, but it's like
people actually are using it more than they use ABC, right, like.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
But is it even a misnowhere? Like it's not TV anymore.
I think, one we need to change the language. The
terms are just off. But to your point, I mean,
you know Mark and Ilway spoke about this when when
the Olympics was going on, I didn't watch anything real time.
I watched all the clips, you know, I saw the sports,
you know, I didn't care about you know, whatever badminton
or something like that. You know, I would watch the
(11:35):
basketball or whatever it is, and I would just watch
those clips, you know, either on Instagram or on YouTube,
and you're watching the highlights. And so it's this kind
of short formization of content at scale, and.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
I don't know how honestly, you can't put the genie
back in the bottle, right like the toothpastes out. You've
squeezed it out. It's not going back in the tube anymore.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Like well, the traditional guys would love that, right, I
mean they're trying to do.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
That Marketers too. I mean this scale where that you
just used as the big one, like the question I
get asked most often, and I would love to hear
what you think about this as again, like a observer, critic,
and analyst in the industry. Question I get asked most
often is how can we scale a message? Because everyone
wants that sort of fast reach, especially if you're in
(12:18):
a fast turning business like retail.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
It's a hard question, and there's only so many sporting
events that have massive reach, Like, yes, the Eagles game
on Friday night, you know, the first Friday night football
game early in the season. Ever, like is going to
have massive viewership. I'm sure Thursday in football had massive viewership,
but there's just not that many ad slots for the
entire marketing economy. Sure you can market during the NBA,
you can market during baseball, but the audiences are fractions
(12:43):
of what you get during football. Sure you can advertise
during stranger things, but again, most Netflix subscribers don't have advertising, Like,
so where do you get the ability to have mass
reach all at the same time? And I guess, Marissa,
the thing that I'm thinking most about is like, maybe
that is just not possible, and we're gonna have to
(13:04):
think instead of one message being the one to many,
which is I think the way you and Steven have
grown up in this industry was one message blasted out
to tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions of people.
You know, when you listen to Mark Zuckerberg on that
last Meta Earnings Colony talks about, Hey, just tell me
your objective, give me your money, and we'll do everything else,
(13:26):
meaning we'll figure out the creative, we'll target individual creative
to the individual person like, and we're not there yet
for video, and my guess is in the next two
to five years we are. But you know, imagine an
ad runs for you while you're watching reels, and it
is the ad I'm seeing is completely different than the
ad Steven and Marissa sees. And not only is it different,
(13:49):
but every time I see that ad, it's different for
me personally until it finds the version that actually gets
it to convert so I click or engage or whatever
the behavior they want. Is that sort of like infinite
iteration on the fly, learning and adjusting and adapting based
(14:09):
on behavior. Sure, in one sense, it's a Marketer's dream.
On the other hand, it's scary because you're sort of
losing control and you're handing the keys to the platform
right like.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
But this is exactly and you're opening, you know, the
Pandora's box here. I always say that the November twenty
twenty two launch of CHATGBT was our Netscape Navigator moment
Rich we're both class ninety five.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
Because it ultimately will change everything, Like ultimately it hasn't
changed everything yet, but you're saying ultimately it changes everything.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
But people are underestimating it. The saying goes that you're
overestimate in the short term and they're underestimating the long term.
I think we're underestimating it both short and long term,
because every twelve months you're going to have a new model,
and this is going to grow exponentially. And so what
you just said of personalization at scale, I don't think
if you are a traditional marketer, you know, it was
bad enough a decade ago when we're doing the driven
(15:00):
marketing and we're trying to find audiences, and you went
from you know, oh, my eighteen to forty nine, which
by the way, I never understood because an eighteen year
old has nothing coming of a forty nine year old.
But then we started to do segments, and.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Forty nine is not the end of living for just
just saying.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
That's right, that's right. You don't die at forty nine.
But you went from building you know, kind of an
eighteen to forty nine profile to having cohorts right different segments,
and now you're having it infinite segments. So do you
see the ability for any media company if they're not
a tech platform? How do these companies compete? Because you've
(15:38):
been talking about the death of the bundle forever, but
are we there, Like, is it going to be like
a long, you know, goodbye or is it going to
happen sooner than we think linear?
Speaker 4 (15:46):
Your TV is not going anywhere as long as football
is around, right, so you know, these contracts go out,
you know, into the next decade.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
So is that really the only thing propping up the industry?
Is it really just NFL college football? Okay, if you.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Want to watch the Michigan game tomorrow, I think you're
going to see some pretty incredible ratings on Fox tomorrow afternoon.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Sure enough, Goblu goblo.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
I mean people do still watch shows, it's just much
more infinite, I mean sort of imp detestimal in terms
of what it used to be.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
That's the keyword, Mersa. The viewership is so fragmented outside
of a few major sporting events. You know, I'm sure
we'll see a big rating for the debate next Tuesday
night on ABC. But my point is the fragmentation has
gotten to a point where the numbers are so tiny,
right when you think about the reach you can get again,
it's not everyone watching at the same time, but the
(16:38):
reach you can get on YouTube. Like the fact that
take advertising for a day on YouTube will reach more
people than ABC, ESPN, Disney plus Hulu. Like if you
do add all of those together, YouTube's got more reach.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Right.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
So that that's why that data point was so interesting
this week because it just shows you, sure, they're not
watching the same thing and so like, just like they
weren't watching the same thing on lin your TV, you
were buying what an add on how many different channels
was the media mix? Probably fifteen twenty different channels. Now
you're buying effectively an infinite number of YouTube channels. But
the idea is still the same, right, Like you're aggregating
(17:12):
viewership and if you're I don't think the real question
for marketers is what is the death of reach vehicles? Mass?
Reach vehicles mean, yes, how does that change the business?
You know? In one way, targeting the message to risk Rich,
Marissa and Steven is very powerful, but the industry has
(17:36):
really been built on for decades forever, on the same
message to everybody. And you know, I think as you
start to go into this, what's interesting is because Steven
asked the question is, like, what happens to these companies.
Disney doesn't know a lot about you. NBC doesn't know
a lot about you, like you you watch some peacocky
when you're watching NBC. They don't know anything about Steven
(17:58):
and Marissa.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Like they don't have a profile. It's literally, you know, dozens,
you know, if not hundreds of different data points about
who that profile, that consumer.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
Is, TikTok, Meta, Google. These companies know, I mean, they
probably know that we're connected right now. I mean I'm
guessing they know that we're actually having this conversation in
some way right now because I'm in a Chrome browser
right like you know, like just you think about sort
of how that all works. And I'm probably gonna see
ads for whatever Steven mentioned. I'm going to see ads
(18:25):
tonight in my feet.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
We'll talk about shout out to Daniel.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
Yeah, yeah, We're gonna get some Univision ads for sure tonight.
I'm getting vix Plus ads, ad nauseum but it is
this interesting point, right, is like the companies that really
understand not only the capture of data, but know how
to use data and really aggressively build businesses around it.
And I think when you think about how AI, we
could talk a lot about what AI means to the
(18:49):
broader media industry. But I think from an advertising standpoint,
the ability to understand who the audience is and target
the right ad for the right person sort of that
holy grail of advertise, Meta and Google. Think about stacking
those companies.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Up, throwing Amazon.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Yeah, but take Meta and Google for a second, because
I mean they're really the big two. Yes TikTok Amazon, Yes, Amazon,
but depending upon the sector. But you know, when you
were just talking about meta and advertising it and all
the so it was sort of a just leave it
with and here's the problem. No, no, no, sorry, thank
(19:27):
you quoting Zuckerberg. Just leave it with us, not quoting
Rich Greenfield.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
We'll do the rest.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Yep, we'll do the rest. I've experienced that. And here's
the rub. They're each their own walled gardens, so there's
a certain amount of Then trust us, we'll report the
data to you. But now the data is more theirs
than yours, and I'm going to bring us back to
the money. I think one of the things that's made
this so tough is because then we're just optimizing around
(19:56):
clicks and clicks just it can't be the whole game.
It's just not how human behavior works, and so a
little knowledge being a dangerous thing with in the minds
of CFOs finance people like well, why wouldn't I want
to click? Why wouldn't I want that? ROI? Where does
brand now fit into all this? Where does investing in
(20:18):
like growing a business, which is what we've all known
how to do well.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
It makes live experiential marketing that much more important. I understand.
It's not nearly scalable to the point that you you.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Would like, yeah, yeah, I like that.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
Roku just announced in the last quarter, right that they're
going to put branded ads onto their you know, you're
gonna be able to like they were showing off I
think a Mercedes ad on the home screen of Roku,
like not inside the content, but literally on the homescreen
as you're yeah, I'm guessing new surfaces are going to
have to develop because the historical way in which you
consume brand advertising, which is you know, being pummeled with
(20:55):
it eighteen minutes an hour during linear TV is obviously
not You're not gonna have enough consumption, Like it's not.
I want to be clear, linear TV is not going
away over the next decade. But the amount of consumption
in terms of people's total time spent in their day,
it's a shrinking and shrinking piece of that time spent.
And so the available inventory, the GRPs like available are
(21:18):
just going down, and so every marketer's got to figure
out how do they engage consumers and build that brand.
And look, maybe it means making content yourself, Like maybe
every brand is going to have to become a better creator,
whether that's creating a festival, whether that's created like maybe
it's creating your own endemic content. You know, Starbucks is
(21:41):
building out a studio, like like he.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Building their studios. LVMH is building a studios.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Chick fil A just announced them.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
Yeah, chick fil A, Right, we all laughed at it,
but like, my kids love chick fil A. Like, I
don't know if there was, you know, a TV series
brought to you by chick fil A. My guess is,
if it's halfway these it, my kids will at least
check it out. There is clearly a need to think
about what it means to be a brand and rethink marketing,
because all I know is staying still or continuing to
(22:12):
do the same thing is not going to work. I understand,
if you pull ads from TV, you'll sell less Dove
soap at Walmart next week. But on the flip side,
you keep putting ads and only relying on TV, you
eventually sell no soap at Walmart, right, Like, that's sort
of the challenge of relying too heavily on these legacy mediums,
and the mediums are just shrinking. And you see the
(22:33):
tension when Direct TV and Disney are in a blackout situation,
Like you get it when you see Paramount being sold
to David Ellison, Like there are major structural like this
industry is. Earlier this week, Warner Brothers Discovery said, you know,
it's not a surprise at the industry and when your
television is falling, what's surprising to them is how fast.
(22:53):
And I think they're all sort of caught now that
this is happening faster than they expected.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
But are they just in the dark? Ridge, I mean,
this is not like this is like saying and water
is wet. This should not come as a shock. You
just look at consumer behavior.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Oh it's not good when Steven brings out the wet
and when wet.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
I mean, honestly, like, look at a consumer's behavior. Look
at anyone that is you know, certainly millennial, but gen
Z and everyone younger. Jen Alfha, I mean it is
just shocking when you look at the behavior and everything
that you just said. The ability to actually have first
party data, the ability to enable the targeting and the measurement.
All that investment is expensive and let alone, none of
(23:33):
these companies have any clue about AI and it's going
to take billion. I mean what open Aie is now doing.
A valuates had one hundred billion dollars because they need
the compute power and the resources. So how on earth
can any of these media companies make the investment When
you are on the analyst calls, are you asking, hey,
are you guys making the appropriate investments? Because everything that
(23:55):
I see is all these companies are just.
Speaker 4 (23:57):
Cutting the basic media filosophy was initially I think sort
of just before the pandemic, and you saw it gunned
during the pandemic. Is oh just about subscribers? Gun it,
get subscribers, launch, growth, growth, growth will all be treated
like Netflix, This is easy. We just put some of
our content on digital. We create a little player, and
everyone subscribes. And then you go, oh shit, we're losing
(24:19):
billions of dollars a year. You know, well, hit the brakes,
cut back on programming, spend, cut back on marketing, raise
the price of these services dramatically so we can sort
of get to profitability. And you realize all of a
sudden that growth slows down, right, Like so it's hard
to grow. And like, if you think about Netflix, they
very carefully. They had some content, they got some subscribers,
(24:42):
they grew their engagement and time spent. Then they raised
the price, then they got more content. But it was
very methodical. These companies rushed into it, spent too much money,
and they got like the boat tipped over, Like they
were literally lopsided in terms of how they built the business.
And now they're caught back pedaling where Wall Street doesn't
like that they're losing billions of dollars on streaming. They're
(25:04):
trying to protect their core business. They're trying to maintain
balance sheets and free cash flow, and it's hard and
like to me, that's actually and you know what makes
David Ellison buying Paramount so interesting.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
It's by the way, Larry Ellison, his dad, CEO of
Oracle or chairman. Now you know he's going to be
the majority owner, right like seventy seven percent or something
ridiculous like.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
That, follow that money.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
If you think about what you just said, I think
that both of you been sort of talking about the
requisite investment and somebody who isn't you know, yes, it
will be a public company, but you've got a forty
year old CEO in David Ellison, You've got one of
the world's richest men in Larry Ellison. Theoretically you should
have a ten to twenty year timeframe, not a what
(25:47):
happens this quarter or what happens next week and so
time will tell. But I think what everybody in this
space should be watching. Everyone knows Netflix is crushing it.
Everybody knows like we know that Amazon just did the NBA,
but like the one to watch because I think if
we would have done this podcast when you were truly
brand new, there was a lot of shatter that Paramount Plus,
(26:09):
including from us. The Paramount Plus wasn't going to survive
and that there'd be more rationality to streaming because you'd
have players, The weaker players would go away and only
the strong would survive and you'd actually end up with
a healthier marketplace. Well, now you have potentially the most
disruptive and a company who now can think long term,
doesn't have the short term issues that everybody else does.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Has access to capital and theoretically technology.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Is the question rich will they think long term?
Speaker 4 (26:37):
You know, Marissa, you just now did. That's the quote
to piece out of this is will they like the
now all eyes on them, we haven't really seen, but
like do they look at this and go, hey, we
could build the net Netflix? Like everybody else is basically saying, Look,
this is to Stephen's point, this is too hard, it's
too expensive, We're not really that great at this. Like
(26:58):
we'll do it, but like we still want to protect
our linear TV business because that's where all the cash
comes from. And you know, we don't want to take
movies out of movie theaters because we don't have enough
viewers on streaming. So like we can't put a movie
on streaming to start with because not enough people see it,
and like you get into that whole problem but yeah,
I think the opportunity here is could we have the
first company that really thinks bold? And again, what matters
(27:21):
to advertising? The only thing that matters to advertising is
time spent. Like, if you don't have time spent, you
can't sell ads. And so most of these streaming services,
the problem they're all facing is.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Is that really the one metric that you look at
as an analyst? I mean, is there any other KPIs
that you would look at or is it really just
time spent?
Speaker 4 (27:39):
I think if you are using these services, it gives
you the ability.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
I mean, if you have time spent, but you have
like five people, that's not interesting. You still need an audience, right,
you still.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
I meant to aggregate time spent. I'm saying the totality
of time spent. So having a million people who subscribe,
Like all these Charter subscribers are Disney subs. Ninety percent
of them haven't activate at Disney Plus, so they're inactive,
but they're counted as subs. You can't sell ads someone
not using you. You need time spent. And it's like,
(28:08):
what does Mark Zuckerberg care about? What is YouTube? Like
we get back to that YouTube being top on the TV, like,
time spent is going to be the most important thing
that decides whether these can be great ad businesses over time.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
And so it's time spent basically your producty for engagement.
I mean, how do you view the two.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
That's exactly how we're thinking about it. And it's like
the problem that Netflix has today, right the ad tier
is just tiny, you know, just because it's new Amazon.
It's actually fairly big because they pushed it on everybody
and everybody has ads essentially now. So Amazon's a huge
player in engagement and has trem you know, all this
NFL now you're gonna start getting NBA and in a
(28:47):
year like they have tremendous engagement. I think most of
these platforms, you know, you turn on House of Dragon
for forty five minutes or you turn on your Peacock
does really well during you know what just happened sports
to sort of the ongoing daily engagement around content is
still you know, much smaller and certainly powamount plus Like
(29:07):
what was the last time you turned on Paramount Plus?
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Well, I watched it for Champions League and stuff like that.
But to your point, then, why is an apple crushing it?
Because theoretically They have all the pieces of the ecosystem, right,
They got the hardware, they have the software, they have
the service. They have actually some good content on there.
Speaker 4 (29:23):
They have some great content. I mean, I thought, what
was the show? I was just watching, Well Acapulco. I'm biased,
but presumed innocent.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Yeah, presumed was good Silo Morning. But then why is
an Apple crushing it? Do they have the engagement?
Speaker 3 (29:36):
They have?
Speaker 4 (29:36):
Like no engagement they have like the three of us. Literally,
I'm sure you're a listening base. Your listening base, I'm
sure is very much over indexes. Yes, but they haven't
built out so interesting. The only company that hasn't been
willing to license a large amount of library. And I think,
what you know when I see my daughter watching Criminal
Minds and watching seventeen seasons of it, you know throughout
(29:58):
the summer, I don't have the depth of content. And
so you go in, you watch an episode, you come back,
or you watch a couple of episodes, but like, you
don't have that binging that leads to and suits.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Dude, Sure, we can.
Speaker 4 (30:11):
Debate whether binging is the best way to build visibility
for any given series, but the totality of having massive
amounts of binge able series is clearly what is made
Netflix successful in terms of time spent. Maybe it's too
late even to do it for anyone else. Maybe we
actually are like that's sort of too late. That is
the big question mark, and that's what again go back
(30:32):
to Ellison, like, we may be too late unless you're
willing to spend an ungodly amount of money.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
You know.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
And the worst part in a way of all this
related back to then what it means to brands and
marketers is it's really hard now to have that water
cooler moment because of the fragmentation and that sense of
entertainment being such a galvanizing part of collective culture and
bonding over it still happens, but sure it's hard.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
Over the summer, there was a tremendous amount of kids.
I look at Mike, you know, I have three daughters.
Like there was a lot of conversation around Dallas Cowboys
cheerleaders and Thunder and like that series on Netflix blew up,
and like there was definitely a zeitgeist conversation around it.
So these things happen. But you're right, Marissa, what are
cooler conversation around content is definitely struggling. And I mean,
(31:24):
if I were to ask the two of you, what
was the last time it happened on linear television? I
mean I think it's Yellowstone. I mean, I think that's
the last one.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
So basically every marketer's nightmare. So when the CFO of
the CEO says, hey, Marisa, can't just make this go viral,
you know it just got infinitely really all right.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Well, speaking of time spent, we're mindful of the time
we're spending with you, and this conversation is amazing and
could go on, but we're going to take a quick break,
and when we come back, Rich, we'd love to play
our favorite game of cooler cringe with you.
Speaker 4 (31:53):
Now I'm scared.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
And we're back, and we're ready to play cool or
cringe with the number one Wall Street Media analyst Rich Greenfield.
All right, Rich, are you ready for some core cringe?
I am all right, Marisa kick us off.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
All right, I'm going to start with one that has
come up a little bit in this episode with you,
the bundle. We might need to define that for everyone.
What is the bundle of programming of aggregation like that
for consumers and how they pay for it? Is that
cool or cringe rich.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
It's cringe And I think what you're going to see
this Disney new deal with DirecTV My guess is we're
going to see small bundles really start to percolate for
the first time ever. So cringe on, big bundle.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
All right, deaf to the bundle, core, cringe rich.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Big bundle.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
He bending's here to stay. But the one size fits
all meaning triple XL got it?
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Does that mean you have to cut all the pennies
under the sofa cushion to buy all these different bundles
and then suddenly your bill is crazy?
Speaker 4 (33:02):
But you're able to cancel and sign up. These are
very easy to add and subtract versus what they used
to be. So but yeah, I do think it is
going to be a bit more work. You're right, all.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Right, Well, in the spirit of the skinny bundle, it
sounds like cool or cringe? Is it? Venue Venu? You know,
the new sports mini bundle? And do we even need
to have these new type of you know, invented you
know kind of brand companies to aggregate these little bundles.
Speaker 4 (33:32):
There's no doubt that Venue there is a market of
consumers that would love smaller bundles. Do they want not
all of the sports networks? Meaning are they okay without
CBS and NBC? Probably not. But the concept of smaller
bundles I think is cool. Like I do think that
there is a desire, whether it's legal and whether they
should be available to everyone. Lots of questions still to
(33:54):
be answered, but I think the idea of smaller bundles,
I think consumers are telling you they don't want this
one hundred dollars a month with lots of channels they
don't care about. I just think we're that is cringe.
People want bundles that they care more about.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Fair enough, Okay, one more for you and it's a
big one. I hope we like the answer. Brands rich,
cooler cringe in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 4 (34:22):
I mean, I think brands always matter, you know, I
think consumers love brands. Remember when all Birds was all
the rage and now all Birds is like a penny stock,
And like brands matter. I think sustainability of brands, I
think that's the hard part is and I think go
back full circle on this conversation, how does a brand
build real long term like? How do they tell brand stories?
(34:44):
If linear TV is just a smaller medium in terms
of time spent. This is that existential question, and I
don't have a great answer for it. I think it's
what everyone's got to think about, is like, how do
you build brand in a world of programmatic and like
short form six second video, Like, I don't know how
you do that? And I think that is the big
(35:06):
challenge for every marketer listening to this interview all r.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Rich, Well, then I just got to get one last
cool cringe in saying that in a world where everyone has,
you know, said that they hate advertising, they hate the interruption.
All the streamers said, we're never going to do advertising,
and now here we are, everyone's doing an ad tier
core cringe advertising.
Speaker 4 (35:27):
You know, I would have said cringed a few years
ago when the world was going really full bore into
ad free, you know, all these ad free platforms. I
think we've seen now increasingly that advertising that is well targeted,
that is of products that you care about, Like go
back to the data point that Marisa and I were
talking about earlier, like if you can show me things
(35:47):
that I actually want to buy. I think advertising absolutely
can be cool. Most of the time it's cringe, but
there is certainly the ability that if you can serve
the right ad to the right person. And I look
at what my purchase behavior is that I never never
thought I was buying us on a blanket before, but
like right, like you could definitely target the right ad
to the right person.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
So basically it has the potential to be cool. It's
not to be cool, it's cool, but as the potential
and basically Instagram will make you buy anything, is what
you're saying.
Speaker 4 (36:16):
I think that's what we just said.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Oh well, Rich, this has been a fascinating conversation. We'd
love to continue with it in the future. Thanks for
giving us your smart take, and you have definitely opened
up for us as marketers what these existential questions are.
And I think we just need a little bit of
shared empathy and a little patience, which the world does
(36:40):
not to figure out how to solve these individually for
our businesses and our brands. We're going to be watching
the space and hope to get to continue to watch
it with you, so thanks so much, Thanks.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
So much, Rich, great to see both.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
And now it's time for What's on your Mind? Our
favorite part of the episode because we get to answer
your listener question, and this week it comes from Samantha.
I think this is right up your alley, Marisa. So
as soon as in quotes brat summer and then demir
started trending, it felt like every brand that I would
(37:14):
get emaos from had it in their subject line When
is this a good idea? And when is it not?
And I confess I probably know one of these terms,
maybe not the other, but Marissa, you know getting on
the bandwagon cool cringed? Is that smart brand works?
Speaker 1 (37:30):
So funny that is one of those things when we're
not gen z that we want to feel up to
date with that, and sometimes we need our kids to
tell us. But sure enough, earlier today I was texting
with an industry friend who texted, oh, very demure. So
it's just funny how these words catchphrases ideas that get
(37:53):
sometimes like brat summer popularized by a music artist and
just these demur came from a viral TikTok. That's how
culture is happening now. The question is when do brands
surf right on them? And I think it's a good
question and one that lacks a perfect answer, but.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
That's a great way to say, like riding the coattail
surf riding, Like this is the kind of thing where.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
I always think about that sort of surfing, what's trending,
and it can be a really smart thing if you're
the kind of brand that does it. But I think
what Samantha said that is interesting and kind of a
sort of an awkward truth, is right. I think my
inbox has been filled with so many subject lines playing
(38:37):
with the word demure just in the past couple of weeks.
And by the way, if you're listening and don't know
what we're talking about, just google it and you'll get it.
But it doesn't even matter. It's just an example of
when something has a micro trend moment, and that's what
it is. It's a micro trend. Do you jump on
it to look relevant or not. The closest I can
come to answering that is you have to bring it
(39:00):
back to brand voice, And that is why we've said
a few times here, back to the future. Certain classics
still matter, like really getting clear on your brand and
your voice. If you have a kind of brand that
would be kind of fun and colloquial of it, or may.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
Come close and you want experiment.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Yeah, go for it. But if it's so out of character,
that would be a cooler cringe question, wouldn't it, right?
Like I think I think this is a cooler cringe question,
Like it would be a cringe if you're a brand
that's targeting older adults, for example, and you're suddenly throwing it,
it'll either just be fallen off yours or just feel awkward.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
So or or the B to B you know, tech
company that's trying to look cool and using these terms
right right right, probably not your brand voice.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
I'd love to know if you have a different point
of view. Mine is be aware. It is important to
be culturally cognizant. But this pressure we feel to show
that we're with it brands and people, sometimes it just
can fall flat. So judgment matters here.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Doesn't matters. But I feel you have so much more
experience because you've done so many you know, kind of
big B two C brands. You need to be a
part of culture, and I think it's really difficult to
figure out when do you ride that trend. I mean
for me, it's more like is it really a micro trend?
Like do people really even know the brand voice? Because
(40:26):
this is going back to you know, the whole conversation
we just had with Rich and what is the value
of a brand? You know, when you're doing such lower funnel,
you know, precision targeted marketing. Where do you inject this
right or are you now going to be able to
kind of just do you know, leveraging AI and just
have you know, millions of different types of copy and
a B testing at scale and so you'll throw it
(40:46):
in there just to see, you know, what works and
what doesn't work. I don't know, I mean it's this iteration.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Yeah, I mean in that sense, it could be a
little harmless to experiment with an email subject line and
give it a try. But you know what, I think
our answer should be given the cooler cringe test.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
That's a good list test.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Maybe it's as simple as that. If it feels cool
and multiple people agree with school, you know, ask your neighbor,
your office neighbor, then maybe give it a try. If
it feels cringe, I think twice.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
So I think you just hit on something which I
think is definitely a whole nother pod. So I'm making
a mental note we need to have a pod on
brand voice because I don't know, like, can you go
into either the companies that you used to work with
or you know friends of ours at different companies. Does
everyone know what the brand voice? Is? Is that crystal Clear?
Speaker 3 (41:35):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (41:36):
One hundred percent? No, no, no, no. In a few
cases yes, but I would venture more exceptions in that
regard than the rule, and it does matter. This goes
back to what we were talking about in the setup
of translating stuff like that to the money and other people.
(41:56):
Is that might sound like a super fluffy thing to do,
but it's not because think of this question. It becomes
a strategic lens for decision making, and marketers want to
make good decisions. So that's it for now. We hope
you like what you're hearing from us, and if you
do and you haven't already, please subscribe. And if you
want us to answer one of your questions, we love
(42:17):
getting they. Please tell us what's on your mind send
them just email us at Ideas at branddshnew dot com.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
And thank you so much for listening. Follow us on
all the socials. We are so excited to really have
this money and marketing kind of theme, So please send
us the questions and look for us on brand News.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
See you next time.
Hi, and thanks for joining us on brand new from
the iHeart Podcast Network and brand new webs I'm Marissa Thalberg.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
And I'm Stephen wolf Data.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Stephen, it was really good to be together with you
in LA last week, especially because you've been traveling. You
were out of the country. As we talked about last time.
I was happy to travel to the West Coast see
some friends.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Having you in the West Coast is the best, the
absolute best. You belong here. We miss you, California, missus you,
thank you for bringing sunshine.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Thank you, I miss it.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Well.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
It does show that there's nothing quite as good as
being in person. Even though I stand by our earlier
episode on hybrid work, but we do. We are hybrid
work people. It's just nice to be together. I know
you were playing a lot of catch up and meetings.
I had some really good meetings.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Who you meet with when you were in all.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
It was a little bit of working remotely, a little
bit of piggybacking on David's nonprofit clients event Comfort Cases.
We should talk about that, your husband or some wisers
that don't know everyone knows now, but we should talk
about that's a really good cause. Well, maybe we'll bring
(01:25):
the CEO of Comfort Cases onto a future episode, and
we were out there for that and then some of
the other little cool side things I've been working on.
You know, one of the meetings that I had was
finally getting together with the founder of the VC firm
that I advise. I'm one of a bunch of executive advisors.
It's very lightweight. It's an incredible peer community, though, and
(01:47):
it was nice being in person with him for a once.
And I know that that's your world. I mean, you
come out of that finance world, you still play in
that world, and it's just so interesting having that level
of being a partner and feeling respected and advising him
because I still feel like there's this prevailing issue and
we've talked about it periodically across various episodes. Remember back
(02:11):
in our episode with Phil Thomas, the chairman of Canich
totally money the money people coming to can that there's
still this weird lack of speaking the same language, like
need for un translators when it comes to the money
people and the marketers.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
I affectionately think of it as remember the old book,
men are from Mars and women are from Venus. Oh yeah,
back in the day yeah, I feel that it's a
little bit of very different languages. They focus on different things,
they operate in different circles, and it's a shame because
everyone wants the same outcome, right, Everyone is trying to grow,
(02:50):
everyone's trying to really figure out how to increase shareholder value.
But the way that I think the marketing community thinks
about it is very different from the financial community, and
for whatever reason, they just don't really operate in the
same circles. That's why it's actually exciting to see either
investors you know, from private equity, venture capital coming to
places I can, but they still don't know no at
(03:11):
the end of the day, you know, they are financiers,
they're not operators, and so they sometimes don't even know
the right questions. So that's why you advising, you know,
this VC firm is actually really impactful, and I hope
they appreciate that and they're taking care of you.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Look, it's a very lightweight thing, and for me, you
do things like this as much to learn as to
add value. And that was my reason for saying yes
to it a while ago. But it's just another reminder
or maybe a contrast to then the unfavorable situations we
see where it's just so incredibly frustrating that everyone thinks
(03:46):
they're a marketer. By the way, we've known that forever
in this industry. Everyone thinks they're a media expert. But
what's so tough now is just the changing nature of
the landscape and the expectations and somehow we do we
need like almost like a big un summit of the
money and the marketers, because there should be trust there
(04:08):
and that's called being collegial and being on the same
team and being partners, and I hate that it doesn't
always feel that way.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Again, we have to define terms, and we have to
really be very clear of what our assumptions are. Now
we're assuming that, you know, we want that, and they
also want that. I would say a lot of you know,
kind of the folks that I know in finance, you know,
they actually have a real disdain for marketing. They truly
view it as a cost line item.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
That makes me so sad because it's not.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
I know, and again they're like, hey, like, why do
we have to invest all this money? Where is the return?
A lot of it is unmeasurable, and so it's all
the same tropes and it's twenty twenty four. It's not
the case. And I just don't understand how any business
that is looking to grow if they do not understand
the value of marketing, which is truly investing in the brand,
(05:00):
which is ultimately the full value of the company.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
It's misinformation, Stephen, I th use election year terms. It's misinformation.
We've got to debunk it.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
But we have a really unique opportunity to really bring
these tours. I love the way you're frame it, you know,
the marketing and the money. If we can actually have
this dialogue, and so I think that's a little bit
of the spirit of what we want to do with
you know, I guess it's back to school. You know,
it's September, So let's kind of really help our listeners,
you know, kind of get a little bit of an
inside peak, again from an operator per point of view.
(05:30):
But what's kind of brings some folks that will have
this perspective, whether you know, we agree with it or not.
But I think it's important to have this dialogue.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
I agree. I'm excited to we are not just back
to school, but where everyone's sort of back to business.
A lot of people never feel like they left that
speaks to our topic last week of not knowing how
to take a break in American work culture. But for
those who did, I mean, for sure, it's sort of
that back to business, and I think it is a
good time for us to tackle this and do it
(05:59):
in multi episode kind of way. And we've got a
great guess that we're bringing on for the very first,
very first crack at it. But I just think this
is such an important topic and we're gonna have Rich
Greenfield join us in a little bit. You know, it's
particularly poignant when you talk to someone like Rich, who's
like one of the top media analysts out there, right,
(06:21):
because we're also coming into a season in the latter
part of a year, I should say, we're the continued
blowing up of traditional media companies and sales and rebundling.
I mean, it's just every year it's like, oh, this
can't be meant anything more dramatic than this, And then
it's more dramatic, like what's happening with Paramount and others.
(06:44):
So it'll be interesting to talk about that and also
then through the lens of what does it mean for
brands and marketers and the money that follows.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Careful what you wish for you may you live in
interesting times. Right, So a little bit on Rich. I've
known Rich, you know, for probably almost two decades at
this point. He's a dear friend. He's probably one of
the smartest folks that I know on on Wall Street
that has really been I think the best Wall Street
analyst on media technology. He launched his own firm called
(07:12):
Lightshead Partners a few years ago. Before that, he was
at BTI G Research. Again. He was just calling balls
and strikes. He would literally go on calls, you know,
whether it was Bob Iger, you know, the CEO of
Disney or you know, you name the company, you know,
tech companies, media companies, and he was always asking the
hard questions. I mean so hard in fact, that sometimes
he would get blocked. I mean I remember famously Bob
(07:34):
Iger blocked him from, you know, asking any more questions
on the earnings calls because you know, either they were
too hard they didn't want to answer it. But I
feel like having someone like Rich, you know, kind of
come on shair. His perspective is going to be really great.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
So we'll be right back with him, and we're back
and we're excited to have the Rich Greenfield from Lightsheed
Partners here, as I guess, I'm brand new.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Welcome, Rich, Welcome.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
I mean it's brand new to be on brand new,
I guess, So can we still say brand How long
can you go with brand new? Is it the entire
first year that you're brand new?
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Something's always brand new, So it's evergreen.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
It is ever green, evergreen, just like your background. Rich. Honestly,
like it's been such a crazy twelve months with everything
that's been happening in the industry. You know, Marissa, I
think you want to maybe lob the first question, but
like there's so much to talk about with all the disruption,
and of course we're going to mention AI. But Marissa,
why don't you kick it off? Okay?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
I will. We have a lot of places we want
to go in this conversation, Rich, especially with your expertise
across the media landscape, and we're going to go there.
But let's start through the lens of brands and advertising
in this completely disrupted world with media. I will go there.
As I said a little further, what do you think
happens to advertising now as we go forward? I know
(08:56):
it was a lot easier when I started, but it's
changing by the men. What's your point of view from
observing it all?
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Well, you know, it's funny when I started, I started
Goldman Sacks back in nineteen ninety five covering this crazy sector,
and I remember sort of the old Jade commentary that like,
nobody ever got fired for buying broadcast television or just
TV in general, right, Like it was just rinse and repeat,
like it didn't matter that you were having fewer eyeballs.
And I remember presentations, Oh, you could buy this much
(09:25):
cable TV and effectively get to the reach of what
you could do on broadcast, Like there was all these
like but again it was like this was what everybody did.
You bought liney your TV, that's how you sold your products. Sports, yes,
sports was great, but it wasn't even just sports. People
were watching primetime TV, they were watching morning TV, they
were watching afternoon TV. And Marisa, I think the big
(09:48):
question mark now is we're living in a world where
what's the cure for boredom. The cure for boredom is
not turning on your TV anymore, right Like the cure
for boredom is opening up TikTok or Instagram and scrolling
through reels and maybe it's snapping your friends, but like
the change in consumer behavior And I think what is
(10:09):
really most interesting for marketers to think about is we've
had this rapid shift towards short form content, and I
sort of think about it as forget about where we
are now, but think about as this whole generation grows up,
Like are they even going to have the patience to
watch something that's ten minutes twenty minutes, let alone an
(10:29):
hour or two hours? Like what does that mean for
you know, watching you know, not just TV and movies,
what does it mean for sports? Like that whole thing.
It's really interesting in terms of how you think about
how do you engage consumers, not just in twenty twenty four,
but I'm thinking, like, you know, as we move over
the next decade, you think about how much has changed
in the last few years, and you know, you think about,
(10:51):
like just this week, what was the big news. YouTube
Now is the largest share of TV time spend? Right,
Like I remember where like YouTube got itself on the
TV and like, you know, it was like, oh okay,
so YouTube is here, and like what is that to watch?
Like kid videos? Like right, you know, but it's like
people actually are using it more than they use ABC, right, like.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
But is it even a misnowhere? Like it's not TV anymore.
I think, one we need to change the language. The
terms are just off. But to your point, I mean,
you know Mark and Ilway spoke about this when when
the Olympics was going on, I didn't watch anything real time.
I watched all the clips, you know, I saw the sports,
you know, I didn't care about you know, whatever badminton
or something like that. You know, I would watch the
(11:35):
basketball or whatever it is, and I would just watch
those clips, you know, either on Instagram or on YouTube,
and you're watching the highlights. And so it's this kind
of short formization of content at scale, and.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
I don't know how honestly, you can't put the genie
back in the bottle, right like the toothpastes out. You've
squeezed it out. It's not going back in the tube anymore.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Like well, the traditional guys would love that, right, I
mean they're trying to do.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
That Marketers too. I mean this scale where that you
just used as the big one, like the question I
get asked most often, and I would love to hear
what you think about this as again, like a observer, critic,
and analyst in the industry. Question I get asked most
often is how can we scale a message? Because everyone
wants that sort of fast reach, especially if you're in
(12:18):
a fast turning business like retail.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
It's a hard question, and there's only so many sporting
events that have massive reach, Like, yes, the Eagles game
on Friday night, you know, the first Friday night football
game early in the season. Ever, like is going to
have massive viewership. I'm sure Thursday in football had massive viewership,
but there's just not that many ad slots for the
entire marketing economy. Sure you can market during the NBA,
you can market during baseball, but the audiences are fractions
(12:43):
of what you get during football. Sure you can advertise
during stranger things, but again, most Netflix subscribers don't have advertising, Like,
so where do you get the ability to have mass
reach all at the same time? And I guess, Marissa,
the thing that I'm thinking most about is like, maybe
that is just not possible, and we're gonna have to
(13:04):
think instead of one message being the one to many,
which is I think the way you and Steven have
grown up in this industry was one message blasted out
to tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions of people.
You know, when you listen to Mark Zuckerberg on that
last Meta Earnings Colony talks about, Hey, just tell me
your objective, give me your money, and we'll do everything else,
(13:26):
meaning we'll figure out the creative, we'll target individual creative
to the individual person like, and we're not there yet
for video, and my guess is in the next two
to five years we are. But you know, imagine an
ad runs for you while you're watching reels, and it
is the ad I'm seeing is completely different than the
ad Steven and Marissa sees. And not only is it different,
(13:49):
but every time I see that ad, it's different for
me personally until it finds the version that actually gets
it to convert so I click or engage or whatever
the behavior they want. Is that sort of like infinite
iteration on the fly, learning and adjusting and adapting based
(14:09):
on behavior. Sure, in one sense, it's a Marketer's dream.
On the other hand, it's scary because you're sort of
losing control and you're handing the keys to the platform
right like.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
But this is exactly and you're opening, you know, the
Pandora's box here. I always say that the November twenty
twenty two launch of CHATGBT was our Netscape Navigator moment
Rich we're both class ninety five.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
Because it ultimately will change everything, Like ultimately it hasn't
changed everything yet, but you're saying ultimately it changes everything.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
But people are underestimating it. The saying goes that you're
overestimate in the short term and they're underestimating the long term.
I think we're underestimating it both short and long term,
because every twelve months you're going to have a new model,
and this is going to grow exponentially. And so what
you just said of personalization at scale, I don't think
if you are a traditional marketer, you know, it was
bad enough a decade ago when we're doing the driven
(15:00):
marketing and we're trying to find audiences, and you went
from you know, oh, my eighteen to forty nine, which
by the way, I never understood because an eighteen year
old has nothing coming of a forty nine year old.
But then we started to do segments, and.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Forty nine is not the end of living for just
just saying.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
That's right, that's right. You don't die at forty nine.
But you went from building you know, kind of an
eighteen to forty nine profile to having cohorts right different segments,
and now you're having it infinite segments. So do you
see the ability for any media company if they're not
a tech platform? How do these companies compete? Because you've
(15:38):
been talking about the death of the bundle forever, but
are we there, Like, is it going to be like
a long, you know, goodbye or is it going to
happen sooner than we think linear?
Speaker 4 (15:46):
Your TV is not going anywhere as long as football
is around, right, so you know, these contracts go out,
you know, into the next decade.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
So is that really the only thing propping up the industry?
Is it really just NFL college football? Okay, if you.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Want to watch the Michigan game tomorrow, I think you're
going to see some pretty incredible ratings on Fox tomorrow afternoon.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Sure enough, Goblu goblo.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
I mean people do still watch shows, it's just much
more infinite, I mean sort of imp detestimal in terms
of what it used to be.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
That's the keyword, Mersa. The viewership is so fragmented outside
of a few major sporting events. You know, I'm sure
we'll see a big rating for the debate next Tuesday
night on ABC. But my point is the fragmentation has
gotten to a point where the numbers are so tiny,
right when you think about the reach you can get again,
it's not everyone watching at the same time, but the
(16:38):
reach you can get on YouTube. Like the fact that
take advertising for a day on YouTube will reach more
people than ABC, ESPN, Disney plus Hulu. Like if you
do add all of those together, YouTube's got more reach.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Right.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
So that that's why that data point was so interesting
this week because it just shows you, sure, they're not
watching the same thing and so like, just like they
weren't watching the same thing on lin your TV, you
were buying what an add on how many different channels
was the media mix? Probably fifteen twenty different channels. Now
you're buying effectively an infinite number of YouTube channels. But
the idea is still the same, right, Like you're aggregating
(17:12):
viewership and if you're I don't think the real question
for marketers is what is the death of reach vehicles? Mass?
Reach vehicles mean, yes, how does that change the business?
You know? In one way, targeting the message to risk Rich,
Marissa and Steven is very powerful, but the industry has
(17:36):
really been built on for decades forever, on the same
message to everybody. And you know, I think as you
start to go into this, what's interesting is because Steven
asked the question is, like, what happens to these companies.
Disney doesn't know a lot about you. NBC doesn't know
a lot about you, like you you watch some peacocky
when you're watching NBC. They don't know anything about Steven
(17:58):
and Marissa.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Like they don't have a profile. It's literally, you know, dozens,
you know, if not hundreds of different data points about
who that profile, that consumer.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
Is, TikTok, Meta, Google. These companies know, I mean, they
probably know that we're connected right now. I mean I'm
guessing they know that we're actually having this conversation in
some way right now because I'm in a Chrome browser
right like you know, like just you think about sort
of how that all works. And I'm probably gonna see
ads for whatever Steven mentioned. I'm going to see ads
(18:25):
tonight in my feet.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
We'll talk about shout out to Daniel.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
Yeah, yeah, We're gonna get some Univision ads for sure tonight.
I'm getting vix Plus ads, ad nauseum but it is
this interesting point, right, is like the companies that really
understand not only the capture of data, but know how
to use data and really aggressively build businesses around it.
And I think when you think about how AI, we
could talk a lot about what AI means to the
(18:49):
broader media industry. But I think from an advertising standpoint,
the ability to understand who the audience is and target
the right ad for the right person sort of that
holy grail of advertise, Meta and Google. Think about stacking
those companies.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Up, throwing Amazon.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Yeah, but take Meta and Google for a second, because
I mean they're really the big two. Yes TikTok Amazon, Yes, Amazon,
but depending upon the sector. But you know, when you
were just talking about meta and advertising it and all
the so it was sort of a just leave it
with and here's the problem. No, no, no, sorry, thank
(19:27):
you quoting Zuckerberg. Just leave it with us, not quoting
Rich Greenfield.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
We'll do the rest.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Yep, we'll do the rest. I've experienced that. And here's
the rub. They're each their own walled gardens, so there's
a certain amount of Then trust us, we'll report the
data to you. But now the data is more theirs
than yours, and I'm going to bring us back to
the money. I think one of the things that's made
this so tough is because then we're just optimizing around
(19:56):
clicks and clicks just it can't be the whole game.
It's just not how human behavior works, and so a
little knowledge being a dangerous thing with in the minds
of CFOs finance people like well, why wouldn't I want
to click? Why wouldn't I want that? ROI? Where does
brand now fit into all this? Where does investing in
(20:18):
like growing a business, which is what we've all known
how to do well.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
It makes live experiential marketing that much more important. I understand.
It's not nearly scalable to the point that you you.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Would like, yeah, yeah, I like that.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
Roku just announced in the last quarter, right that they're
going to put branded ads onto their you know, you're
gonna be able to like they were showing off I
think a Mercedes ad on the home screen of Roku,
like not inside the content, but literally on the homescreen
as you're yeah, I'm guessing new surfaces are going to
have to develop because the historical way in which you
consume brand advertising, which is you know, being pummeled with
(20:55):
it eighteen minutes an hour during linear TV is obviously
not You're not gonna have enough consumption, Like it's not.
I want to be clear, linear TV is not going
away over the next decade. But the amount of consumption
in terms of people's total time spent in their day,
it's a shrinking and shrinking piece of that time spent.
And so the available inventory, the GRPs like available are
(21:18):
just going down, and so every marketer's got to figure
out how do they engage consumers and build that brand.
And look, maybe it means making content yourself, Like maybe
every brand is going to have to become a better creator,
whether that's creating a festival, whether that's created like maybe
it's creating your own endemic content. You know, Starbucks is
(21:41):
building out a studio, like like he.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Building their studios. LVMH is building a studios.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Chick fil A just announced them.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
Yeah, chick fil A, Right, we all laughed at it,
but like, my kids love chick fil A. Like, I
don't know if there was, you know, a TV series
brought to you by chick fil A. My guess is,
if it's halfway these it, my kids will at least
check it out. There is clearly a need to think
about what it means to be a brand and rethink marketing,
because all I know is staying still or continuing to
(22:12):
do the same thing is not going to work. I understand,
if you pull ads from TV, you'll sell less Dove
soap at Walmart next week. But on the flip side,
you keep putting ads and only relying on TV, you
eventually sell no soap at Walmart, right, Like, that's sort
of the challenge of relying too heavily on these legacy mediums,
and the mediums are just shrinking. And you see the
(22:33):
tension when Direct TV and Disney are in a blackout situation,
Like you get it when you see Paramount being sold
to David Ellison, Like there are major structural like this
industry is. Earlier this week, Warner Brothers Discovery said, you know,
it's not a surprise at the industry and when your
television is falling, what's surprising to them is how fast.
(22:53):
And I think they're all sort of caught now that
this is happening faster than they expected.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
But are they just in the dark? Ridge, I mean,
this is not like this is like saying and water
is wet. This should not come as a shock. You
just look at consumer behavior.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Oh it's not good when Steven brings out the wet
and when wet.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
I mean, honestly, like, look at a consumer's behavior. Look
at anyone that is you know, certainly millennial, but gen
Z and everyone younger. Jen Alfha, I mean it is
just shocking when you look at the behavior and everything
that you just said. The ability to actually have first
party data, the ability to enable the targeting and the measurement.
All that investment is expensive and let alone, none of
(23:33):
these companies have any clue about AI and it's going
to take billion. I mean what open Aie is now doing.
A valuates had one hundred billion dollars because they need
the compute power and the resources. So how on earth
can any of these media companies make the investment When
you are on the analyst calls, are you asking, hey,
are you guys making the appropriate investments? Because everything that
(23:55):
I see is all these companies are just.
Speaker 4 (23:57):
Cutting the basic media filosophy was initially I think sort
of just before the pandemic, and you saw it gunned
during the pandemic. Is oh just about subscribers? Gun it,
get subscribers, launch, growth, growth, growth will all be treated
like Netflix, This is easy. We just put some of
our content on digital. We create a little player, and
everyone subscribes. And then you go, oh shit, we're losing
(24:19):
billions of dollars a year. You know, well, hit the brakes,
cut back on programming, spend, cut back on marketing, raise
the price of these services dramatically so we can sort
of get to profitability. And you realize all of a
sudden that growth slows down, right, Like so it's hard
to grow. And like, if you think about Netflix, they
very carefully. They had some content, they got some subscribers,
(24:42):
they grew their engagement and time spent. Then they raised
the price, then they got more content. But it was
very methodical. These companies rushed into it, spent too much money,
and they got like the boat tipped over, Like they
were literally lopsided in terms of how they built the business.
And now they're caught back pedaling where Wall Street doesn't
like that they're losing billions of dollars on streaming. They're
(25:04):
trying to protect their core business. They're trying to maintain
balance sheets and free cash flow, and it's hard and
like to me, that's actually and you know what makes
David Ellison buying Paramount so interesting.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
It's by the way, Larry Ellison, his dad, CEO of
Oracle or chairman. Now you know he's going to be
the majority owner, right like seventy seven percent or something
ridiculous like.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
That, follow that money.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
If you think about what you just said, I think
that both of you been sort of talking about the
requisite investment and somebody who isn't you know, yes, it
will be a public company, but you've got a forty
year old CEO in David Ellison, You've got one of
the world's richest men in Larry Ellison. Theoretically you should
have a ten to twenty year timeframe, not a what
(25:47):
happens this quarter or what happens next week and so
time will tell. But I think what everybody in this
space should be watching. Everyone knows Netflix is crushing it.
Everybody knows like we know that Amazon just did the NBA,
but like the one to watch because I think if
we would have done this podcast when you were truly
brand new, there was a lot of shatter that Paramount Plus,
(26:09):
including from us. The Paramount Plus wasn't going to survive
and that there'd be more rationality to streaming because you'd
have players, The weaker players would go away and only
the strong would survive and you'd actually end up with
a healthier marketplace. Well, now you have potentially the most
disruptive and a company who now can think long term,
doesn't have the short term issues that everybody else does.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Has access to capital and theoretically technology.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Is the question rich will they think long term?
Speaker 4 (26:37):
You know, Marissa, you just now did. That's the quote
to piece out of this is will they like the
now all eyes on them, we haven't really seen, but
like do they look at this and go, hey, we
could build the net Netflix? Like everybody else is basically saying, Look,
this is to Stephen's point, this is too hard, it's
too expensive, We're not really that great at this. Like
(26:58):
we'll do it, but like we still want to protect
our linear TV business because that's where all the cash
comes from. And you know, we don't want to take
movies out of movie theaters because we don't have enough
viewers on streaming. So like we can't put a movie
on streaming to start with because not enough people see it,
and like you get into that whole problem but yeah,
I think the opportunity here is could we have the
first company that really thinks bold? And again, what matters
(27:21):
to advertising? The only thing that matters to advertising is
time spent. Like, if you don't have time spent, you
can't sell ads. And so most of these streaming services,
the problem they're all facing is.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Is that really the one metric that you look at
as an analyst? I mean, is there any other KPIs
that you would look at or is it really just
time spent?
Speaker 4 (27:39):
I think if you are using these services, it gives
you the ability.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
I mean, if you have time spent, but you have
like five people, that's not interesting. You still need an audience, right,
you still.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
I meant to aggregate time spent. I'm saying the totality
of time spent. So having a million people who subscribe,
Like all these Charter subscribers are Disney subs. Ninety percent
of them haven't activate at Disney Plus, so they're inactive,
but they're counted as subs. You can't sell ads someone
not using you. You need time spent. And it's like,
(28:08):
what does Mark Zuckerberg care about? What is YouTube? Like
we get back to that YouTube being top on the TV, like,
time spent is going to be the most important thing
that decides whether these can be great ad businesses over time.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
And so it's time spent basically your producty for engagement.
I mean, how do you view the two.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
That's exactly how we're thinking about it. And it's like
the problem that Netflix has today, right the ad tier
is just tiny, you know, just because it's new Amazon.
It's actually fairly big because they pushed it on everybody
and everybody has ads essentially now. So Amazon's a huge
player in engagement and has trem you know, all this
NFL now you're gonna start getting NBA and in a
(28:47):
year like they have tremendous engagement. I think most of
these platforms, you know, you turn on House of Dragon
for forty five minutes or you turn on your Peacock
does really well during you know what just happened sports
to sort of the ongoing daily engagement around content is
still you know, much smaller and certainly powamount plus Like
(29:07):
what was the last time you turned on Paramount Plus?
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Well, I watched it for Champions League and stuff like that.
But to your point, then, why is an apple crushing it?
Because theoretically They have all the pieces of the ecosystem, right,
They got the hardware, they have the software, they have
the service. They have actually some good content on there.
Speaker 4 (29:23):
They have some great content. I mean, I thought, what
was the show? I was just watching, Well Acapulco. I'm biased,
but presumed innocent.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Yeah, presumed was good Silo Morning. But then why is
an Apple crushing it? Do they have the engagement?
Speaker 3 (29:36):
They have?
Speaker 4 (29:36):
Like no engagement they have like the three of us. Literally,
I'm sure you're a listening base. Your listening base, I'm
sure is very much over indexes. Yes, but they haven't
built out so interesting. The only company that hasn't been
willing to license a large amount of library. And I think,
what you know when I see my daughter watching Criminal
Minds and watching seventeen seasons of it, you know throughout
(29:58):
the summer, I don't have the depth of content. And
so you go in, you watch an episode, you come back,
or you watch a couple of episodes, but like, you
don't have that binging that leads to and suits.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Dude, Sure, we can.
Speaker 4 (30:11):
Debate whether binging is the best way to build visibility
for any given series, but the totality of having massive
amounts of binge able series is clearly what is made
Netflix successful in terms of time spent. Maybe it's too
late even to do it for anyone else. Maybe we
actually are like that's sort of too late. That is
the big question mark, and that's what again go back
(30:32):
to Ellison, like, we may be too late unless you're
willing to spend an ungodly amount of money.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
You know.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
And the worst part in a way of all this
related back to then what it means to brands and
marketers is it's really hard now to have that water
cooler moment because of the fragmentation and that sense of
entertainment being such a galvanizing part of collective culture and
bonding over it still happens, but sure it's hard.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
Over the summer, there was a tremendous amount of kids.
I look at Mike, you know, I have three daughters.
Like there was a lot of conversation around Dallas Cowboys
cheerleaders and Thunder and like that series on Netflix blew up,
and like there was definitely a zeitgeist conversation around it.
So these things happen. But you're right, Marissa, what are
cooler conversation around content is definitely struggling. And I mean,
(31:24):
if I were to ask the two of you, what
was the last time it happened on linear television? I
mean I think it's Yellowstone. I mean, I think that's
the last one.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
So basically every marketer's nightmare. So when the CFO of
the CEO says, hey, Marisa, can't just make this go viral,
you know it just got infinitely really all right.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Well, speaking of time spent, we're mindful of the time
we're spending with you, and this conversation is amazing and
could go on, but we're going to take a quick break,
and when we come back, Rich, we'd love to play
our favorite game of cooler cringe with you.
Speaker 4 (31:53):
Now I'm scared.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
And we're back, and we're ready to play cool or
cringe with the number one Wall Street Media analyst Rich Greenfield.
All right, Rich, are you ready for some core cringe?
I am all right, Marisa kick us off.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
All right, I'm going to start with one that has
come up a little bit in this episode with you,
the bundle. We might need to define that for everyone.
What is the bundle of programming of aggregation like that
for consumers and how they pay for it? Is that
cool or cringe rich.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
It's cringe And I think what you're going to see
this Disney new deal with DirecTV My guess is we're
going to see small bundles really start to percolate for
the first time ever. So cringe on, big bundle.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
All right, deaf to the bundle, core, cringe rich.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Big bundle.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
He bending's here to stay. But the one size fits
all meaning triple XL got it?
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Does that mean you have to cut all the pennies
under the sofa cushion to buy all these different bundles
and then suddenly your bill is crazy?
Speaker 4 (33:02):
But you're able to cancel and sign up. These are
very easy to add and subtract versus what they used
to be. So but yeah, I do think it is
going to be a bit more work. You're right, all.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Right, Well, in the spirit of the skinny bundle, it
sounds like cool or cringe? Is it? Venue Venu? You know,
the new sports mini bundle? And do we even need
to have these new type of you know, invented you
know kind of brand companies to aggregate these little bundles.
Speaker 4 (33:32):
There's no doubt that Venue there is a market of
consumers that would love smaller bundles. Do they want not
all of the sports networks? Meaning are they okay without
CBS and NBC? Probably not. But the concept of smaller
bundles I think is cool. Like I do think that
there is a desire, whether it's legal and whether they
should be available to everyone. Lots of questions still to
(33:54):
be answered, but I think the idea of smaller bundles,
I think consumers are telling you they don't want this
one hundred dollars a month with lots of channels they
don't care about. I just think we're that is cringe.
People want bundles that they care more about.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Fair enough, Okay, one more for you and it's a
big one. I hope we like the answer. Brands rich,
cooler cringe in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 4 (34:22):
I mean, I think brands always matter, you know, I
think consumers love brands. Remember when all Birds was all
the rage and now all Birds is like a penny stock,
And like brands matter. I think sustainability of brands, I
think that's the hard part is and I think go
back full circle on this conversation, how does a brand
build real long term like? How do they tell brand stories?
(34:44):
If linear TV is just a smaller medium in terms
of time spent. This is that existential question, and I
don't have a great answer for it. I think it's
what everyone's got to think about, is like, how do
you build brand in a world of programmatic and like
short form six second video, Like, I don't know how
you do that? And I think that is the big
(35:06):
challenge for every marketer listening to this interview all r.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Rich, Well, then I just got to get one last
cool cringe in saying that in a world where everyone has,
you know, said that they hate advertising, they hate the interruption.
All the streamers said, we're never going to do advertising,
and now here we are, everyone's doing an ad tier
core cringe advertising.
Speaker 4 (35:27):
You know, I would have said cringed a few years
ago when the world was going really full bore into
ad free, you know, all these ad free platforms. I
think we've seen now increasingly that advertising that is well targeted,
that is of products that you care about, Like go
back to the data point that Marisa and I were
talking about earlier, like if you can show me things
(35:47):
that I actually want to buy. I think advertising absolutely
can be cool. Most of the time it's cringe, but
there is certainly the ability that if you can serve
the right ad to the right person. And I look
at what my purchase behavior is that I never never
thought I was buying us on a blanket before, but
like right, like you could definitely target the right ad
to the right person.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
So basically it has the potential to be cool. It's
not to be cool, it's cool, but as the potential
and basically Instagram will make you buy anything, is what
you're saying.
Speaker 4 (36:16):
I think that's what we just said.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Oh well, Rich, this has been a fascinating conversation. We'd
love to continue with it in the future. Thanks for
giving us your smart take, and you have definitely opened
up for us as marketers what these existential questions are.
And I think we just need a little bit of
shared empathy and a little patience, which the world does
(36:40):
not to figure out how to solve these individually for
our businesses and our brands. We're going to be watching
the space and hope to get to continue to watch
it with you, so thanks so much, Thanks.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
So much, Rich, great to see both.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
And now it's time for What's on your Mind? Our
favorite part of the episode because we get to answer
your listener question, and this week it comes from Samantha.
I think this is right up your alley, Marisa. So
as soon as in quotes brat summer and then demir
started trending, it felt like every brand that I would
(37:14):
get emaos from had it in their subject line When
is this a good idea? And when is it not?
And I confess I probably know one of these terms,
maybe not the other, but Marissa, you know getting on
the bandwagon cool cringed? Is that smart brand works?
Speaker 1 (37:30):
So funny that is one of those things when we're
not gen z that we want to feel up to
date with that, and sometimes we need our kids to
tell us. But sure enough, earlier today I was texting
with an industry friend who texted, oh, very demure. So
it's just funny how these words catchphrases ideas that get
(37:53):
sometimes like brat summer popularized by a music artist and
just these demur came from a viral TikTok. That's how
culture is happening now. The question is when do brands
surf right on them? And I think it's a good
question and one that lacks a perfect answer, but.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
That's a great way to say, like riding the coattail
surf riding, Like this is the kind of thing where.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
I always think about that sort of surfing, what's trending,
and it can be a really smart thing if you're
the kind of brand that does it. But I think
what Samantha said that is interesting and kind of a
sort of an awkward truth, is right. I think my
inbox has been filled with so many subject lines playing
(38:37):
with the word demure just in the past couple of weeks.
And by the way, if you're listening and don't know
what we're talking about, just google it and you'll get it.
But it doesn't even matter. It's just an example of
when something has a micro trend moment, and that's what
it is. It's a micro trend. Do you jump on
it to look relevant or not. The closest I can
come to answering that is you have to bring it
(39:00):
back to brand voice, And that is why we've said
a few times here, back to the future. Certain classics
still matter, like really getting clear on your brand and
your voice. If you have a kind of brand that
would be kind of fun and colloquial of it, or may.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
Come close and you want experiment.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Yeah, go for it. But if it's so out of character,
that would be a cooler cringe question, wouldn't it, right?
Like I think I think this is a cooler cringe question,
Like it would be a cringe if you're a brand
that's targeting older adults, for example, and you're suddenly throwing it,
it'll either just be fallen off yours or just feel awkward.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
So or or the B to B you know, tech
company that's trying to look cool and using these terms
right right right, probably not your brand voice.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
I'd love to know if you have a different point
of view. Mine is be aware. It is important to
be culturally cognizant. But this pressure we feel to show
that we're with it brands and people, sometimes it just
can fall flat. So judgment matters here.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Doesn't matters. But I feel you have so much more
experience because you've done so many you know, kind of
big B two C brands. You need to be a
part of culture, and I think it's really difficult to
figure out when do you ride that trend. I mean
for me, it's more like is it really a micro trend?
Like do people really even know the brand voice? Because
(40:26):
this is going back to you know, the whole conversation
we just had with Rich and what is the value
of a brand? You know, when you're doing such lower funnel,
you know, precision targeted marketing. Where do you inject this
right or are you now going to be able to
kind of just do you know, leveraging AI and just
have you know, millions of different types of copy and
a B testing at scale and so you'll throw it
(40:46):
in there just to see, you know, what works and
what doesn't work. I don't know, I mean it's this iteration.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Yeah, I mean in that sense, it could be a
little harmless to experiment with an email subject line and
give it a try. But you know what, I think
our answer should be given the cooler cringe test.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
That's a good list test.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Maybe it's as simple as that. If it feels cool
and multiple people agree with school, you know, ask your neighbor,
your office neighbor, then maybe give it a try. If
it feels cringe, I think twice.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
So I think you just hit on something which I
think is definitely a whole nother pod. So I'm making
a mental note we need to have a pod on
brand voice because I don't know, like, can you go
into either the companies that you used to work with
or you know friends of ours at different companies. Does
everyone know what the brand voice? Is? Is that crystal Clear?
Speaker 3 (41:35):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (41:36):
One hundred percent? No, no, no, no. In a few
cases yes, but I would venture more exceptions in that
regard than the rule, and it does matter. This goes
back to what we were talking about in the setup
of translating stuff like that to the money and other people.
(41:56):
Is that might sound like a super fluffy thing to do,
but it's not because think of this question. It becomes
a strategic lens for decision making, and marketers want to
make good decisions. So that's it for now. We hope
you like what you're hearing from us, and if you
do and you haven't already, please subscribe. And if you
want us to answer one of your questions, we love
(42:17):
getting they. Please tell us what's on your mind send
them just email us at Ideas at branddshnew dot com.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
And thank you so much for listening. Follow us on
all the socials. We are so excited to really have
this money and marketing kind of theme, So please send
us the questions and look for us on brand News.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
See you next time.
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