March 19, 2025 • 54 mins
We’re in the month that celebrates women… which always begs the question: why do we need a month? There’s no one better to talk that topic than Shelley Zalis, founder of The Female Quotient and a trailblazer in advocating for equity. At the heart of Steven and Marisa’s conversation with Shelley: the clear case for why women leadership in business is simply good for business. From reframing “diversity” to unpacking Marisa’s least favorite research finding ever to the perpetuation of bias in AI, this is one, that we hope is really of interest to everyone.
Our favorite quote: “Stop fixing women. Fix the system.” Start by tuning in!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hi, and thanks for joining us on brand New from
the iHeart Podcast Network and Brand New Labs.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I'm Marissa Thalberg.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
And I'm Stephen Wolf Bean Aida.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
We have to just talk about your first alpha Board conference.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
The alpha Board form very specific because we wanted to
be intimate and of substance, and it was amazing. You know.
We had, you know, call it just plus re minds,
about one hundred board directors, you know, kind of tech innovators,
folks from Executive Search. We had some investors. But honestly, Marsa,
We've spoken about this. We've been to so many events.
(00:43):
I'm just at a point where I'm tired of all
the kind of performative Q and A, all the bullshit
on panels, and we just wanted substance.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
How do you know when it's going to be a
good one versus not what makes a good one these days?
Speaker 3 (00:57):
My partners, you know, Alvin Bowles, you know, and Prove
was a part of it. We had a whole great
you know, kind of a bunch of co chairs. Jeff Berman,
you know, Read Hoffman's business partner of another pod master's
of scale. You know, we just had really great folks
to help curate the room, and so everyone was hand
picked and it was all focused again on board directors
and helping them get AI ready around AI governance. So
(01:20):
it's obviously a meaty subject, and we had three tracks
around governance, risk, and kind of strategy. You know, we
had an incredible speaker who kind of presented at the end,
James Buckhouse, who's a partner at Saquoia Capital, and he
spoke about ajenta AI. But he didn't just talk at people,
He actually showed it, and he built an agent to
help startups actually tell their stories in the format of
(01:41):
a ted talk. I mean, just so smart and brilliant.
It blew everyone in the room away. And so I
feel like when you can really control the way that
you're going to curate the room and curate the sessions
and just you know, take out all the all the
bs that we all just you know don't have time
for to connect, I think that was an equally it
was a part of the programming. The intermissions that we
(02:03):
had were actually designed to actually encourage people to connect
met people they didn't know. And you know, we had
policy makers. We had the former National Security Council advisor
who holped write the Executive Order on AI under Biden.
You know Aaron Cooper. Wow, we had real people of
substance and can't wait for the next one.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
You know.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I think what it comes down to, and this is
not a new insight, is time really is our most
precious commodity. And we think about this world of brands, media, tech,
et cetera. It's so busy that being being precious about
making sure that when you engage in these activities it's
time well spent. I mean, it's really different. But I
(02:42):
got invited by the folks at McCann to mc really
intimate dinner with some other cmos and it was Chathamhouse Rules.
So I'm not going to share what we talked about,
but just share that what made it special. I think
everyone felt time well spent is this one was intimate
And if you don't know what Chathamhouse Rules is sort
(03:04):
of like a code of what said in the room
stays in the room.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
We had the Alpha protocols for the Alpha board forums.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
But yes, yeah, but I think what's interesting is there's
times when you convene in big public ways that of
course the comments and the commentary and the big themes
are meant to be public. But there's such a value too,
especially when you are in leadership and being in safe
spaces with peers whom you can learn from and you admire,
(03:31):
and just being able to have real conversation on the
things that matter. And I think that's exactly what you're
saying happened at your conference and even what I felt like,
what was great about this small dinner. So here's two
more of that. And I have to say one other thing,
love that the CEO of McCann is a badass woman.
Because we're going to be talking about women, about equity,
(03:55):
about changing the dialogue.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Why who are we speaking about that?
Speaker 1 (03:59):
With spring on Shelley's salice.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
We are excited to have a true trailblazer and entrepreneur,
the one and only Shelley Zalas, who is an incredible businesswoman,
global advocate, creating a workplace for everyone. A former leader
in the research industry, Shelley, like many of us, found
ourself to be the only woman not me but babe,
(04:24):
but the only woman in the room in too many conferences,
in too many boardrooms, in too many companies. And she
was determined herself to change this equation for everyone in
the workplace, and thus was born the female Quotient and
the Female Quotient Lounge was first born at cs A
decade ago, and today the Female quotion has become the
(04:44):
largest global community of women in business united more than
six million women across thirty industries in more than one
hundred countries. It is breathtaking to see what you have built, Shelley,
Welcome to the brand new podcast.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Welcome co Ruso.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Because she is a citizen of the world.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
We are so happy to have you.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
I should say, or should I say, Happy Women's History Month,
because I think it's great. Also, I'm guessing makes us
both a little crazy that we have to call it
out and call out International Women's Day because here we
are in twenty twenty five, not only with the World
Economic Forum saying we are still one hundred and thirty
(05:28):
four years away from achieving gender equity at the current pace,
I'm frightening, but I mean and political statements aside, maybe
arguably going backwards is more than a few companies have
pushed their equity and DEI messaging back from what they
started in twenty twenty. So, Shelley, what are you saying
We're going to jump right into the hard stuff.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Who's doing it.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Right right now, who's backpedaling? Give us your take on
the landscape, particularly as it pertains to women and gen direquity.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Well, first, I'm so through alled and honored and inspired
to be here with both of you, my favorite people.
So this is incredible and to have unplugged, unscripted conversation,
because that's how change really happens, is when we just
get right at it and go to it, and you know,
there's language, there's conversation, and then there's intentional action for change,
(06:21):
and that's really what it will take. And I don't
think that it's just this political landscape that is setting
us back. The World Economic Forum has been publishing those
numbers for the last several years, and by the way,
you know that it's going to take over one hundred
and thirty four years to close the gender gap. It
was one hundred and thirty one last year.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
And no matter what, it's a not in our lifetime number,
which is depressing.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
So we're going backwards, is what you're saying.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
We've been going backwards. Yeah, but it's who's having the conversation,
who's publishing the numbers, and a quality is a decision.
It is a choice. You can either make it possible
or not. And you know, it really bothers me so
many times when you hear people say, oh, it's unconscious
(07:06):
or it's unconscious bias. Well, if you use the word unconscious,
you're conscious. And once you're conscious and aware that there
are numbers floating out there that it will take one
hundred and thirty four years to close the gender gap,
you ask yourself the question, do I want to do
something about it or not? And so I really have
never depended on public sector to fix our problems. You
(07:30):
can't control that, but what you can control is your choice.
And so I really hold private sector responsible because I
really believe that fortune five hundred CEOs have the choice
of fixing their workplace. They can't fix hunger, they can't
fix sustainability, they can't fix education. They don't control all
(07:52):
those variables in the world, but the one thing they
do control is what happens in their workplace and decisions
they make. So it is the only world problem that
I believe is fixable. We can flip it in five
with choice, intentional action, purpose driven leadership, and where there's
(08:13):
a will, there's.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
A way so how is that going now? Like, what's
your take on what you're seeing out there in terms
of be it the Fortune five hundred or beyond. Give
us a little bit of your take on the snapshot
of what's happening in corporations right now with regards to equity.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
And by the way, International Women's Day or Women's History Month,
why is it a month? Why is it a day?
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Right?
Speaker 4 (08:35):
We changed to invest in Women's.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Day exactly why?
Speaker 4 (08:38):
Because it's good for business, not a nice to have.
And so if you actually believe in business growth and
innovation and talent engagement and development and equal opportunity for
hiring the best talent for your business, then you actually
would not be just eliminating d E and I efforts
(09:01):
that you've worked so hard on inside of your company.
And those companies that are just dumping them, if you will,
are the ones that have used it as tactic or
as quota but not as strategy in their DNA. And
the ones that have incorporated it into the fabric of
their company, which is what it should be. Are the
(09:22):
ones standing up very loud and proudly saying we need
diversity inclusion because diversity is how we represent to reflect
the society, consumers, customers that we serve, and then you
need inclusive culture so everyone feels welcome and that they
belong and that they're heard and that they're seeing. I mean,
so it's not a complicated concept. And those that don't
(09:42):
are going to become Blockbuster or Polaroid because they won't
be listening and addressing their customers' needs around the world.
All of this stuff, I think is just talk right now.
And also people not really understanding what the message is.
So they're chief legal officers are saying to see is
just let it go because it's easier. And those that
(10:06):
are going to stand up and stand with it are
the ones that truly understand why it is so necessary.
And if you actually read the eoc's documents, they're not
saying wipe out the words women and wipe out diversity
for diversity's sake. They're saying, take a hard look inside
of your companies and ensure that you are hiring the
(10:27):
best talent to reflect your business needs. And they even
use the word equal opportunity, you know, equal opportunity for meritocracy.
Let's just put that out there. And so it is
a good moment of self reflection and for me, it's
a great moment to double down and triple up.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
So Shelley, you know, you've been at this for a minute,
and I saw respect to everything that you've done and
built because you've really been the champion and holding businesses accountable.
And I almost look at what you built with the
female quotion almost like the business Roundtable really bring all leaders,
you know, really to account. And you've been doing this
(11:09):
for you know, many years now. You show up at
you know, some of the most important places where leaders
are gathering, you know, from Davos to you know, to
cees that can do you name it. I'm just curious
to your point about DEI, like I always tell people,
don't use an acronym, say it out loud that you
don't believe in diversity, say it out loud that they
don't believe in equality and you don't believe in inclusion.
(11:29):
But when you're with these folks, you know, you're with
Jamie Diamond at Davos or you know whoever it is,
Read Hoffman, you know you're going to be up at
Nvidia next week. By the time this drops, it will
probably be happening live. Like when you are in the
room with these people and you ask them the questions
to their face, what is it that you see between
what they say and then what they do? Because there
(11:51):
is obviously an execution gap there.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
You know, listen right now, there's just a fear factor
because this was a new.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Men being afraid of women. Shockers.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
If only it were that simple.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
First of all, I don't even think it's male female.
I call it conscious leaders. You know, be a conscious leader,
and I don't care what your gender is. You know,
use your position of power to stand up, stand out
and by the ways, stand together with a united voice
on the importance of representation, reflection in the workforce, to
(12:26):
reflect the world that we serve. We know all the numbers,
to see all the McKenzie, you know reports that say
the diversity is not in nice to have, it's a
need to have. But we need to show and prove
the business case of what we are missing without diversity
at the table. And so the three letters of the alphabet.
(12:46):
I mean, when I started the female Quotient, this was
over eleven years ago, there was no d E and I.
There were HR departments, And if you actually watched what
happened with HR departments, hr cheek Ro became a CDO
Chief Diversity Officer, and then they became a CDIO, a
Chief Diversity Inclusion Officer, and then they became a CDIO
(13:10):
and it was the same person that was hired as
an HR person. Sometimes you got to look in and
look in the mirror and say, have I been using
diversity and inclusion to power my business or has it
been a tactic? Right? And so when you look at
these companies, I mean Jamie Jamie di'mond at JP Morgan.
(13:30):
When we started the girls Lounge at the World Economic Forum,
and my invitation was we want you to come, but
you might not feel welcome. My head said, don't go.
Who wants to go when someone is not going to
make me feel welcome? And my heart boom, folly, your
heart said, I must go. And who is that person
that is telling me I might not feel welcome? Why
(13:53):
am I just listening to status quo? Because it was
never done before? So most people think because something isn't
done before, it's going to be hard or it's not
the right way because it wasn't the status quote textbook way.
And so once we came and we brought fifty women
and had a slumber party and went from a moment
(14:14):
to movement overnight because we made ourselves feel welcome by
bringing our own party. You know, the World Economic Forum
can invite what guests they want to their table.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
You created a new table. But you have these conversations,
You've been talking to them for a minute. What is
still holding folks back? Because again, I just don't understand
how anyone can argue against the things that you have
been really espousing.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
Well, it's what Jamie said. Jamie said, this is the
best thing I've ever seen. Count me in every year
as your speaker and your sponsor. What's holding us back? Mindset?
Or right now? With the new DEE and I regulation
quote unquote that came down on everyone, I think people
just need a minute to adjust because there is a
(14:55):
fear factor. They all have government contracts and federal contracts
and they don't want to be at risk. So they
just need to do their inside look quickly assess that
maybe some of the things they were doing they don't
they shouldn't be doing anymore. They weren't working, and the
things they were doing they need to go bigger and
(15:17):
bolder because it is a twelve trillion dollar opportunity. Equal
pay can create so many more jobs and opportunities in
the United States. The way it came down it was harsh.
But in Biden's administration, we lost our caregiving facilities. Now
that wasn't his fault necessarily because he added them and
(15:38):
created them, but then they were taking away and companies
had to adjust. Or when you look at the Obama administration,
I mean, every administration has the power to create new
law and legislation and women's rights, I mean, on so
many levels. But if you actually look in your heart
and inside and say what matters, what is important for
(15:59):
my business business, you are going to do the right
thing and stand behind it, regardless of the fear factor
of what might happen, which I don't think will happen
if companies are doing it for the right reasons.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Here's what I've come to realize, having been now in
the boardrooms of multiple companies as a C suite executive
and unabashed woman who has championed for it from founding
Executive Moms years ago and being in front of it
is and you guys on your social channels, publish the
stat that I've seen, and I don't think there are
too many other stats that make me burn more than
(16:37):
this one, So I'm going to share it with everyone,
which is that research shows around seventy six percent of
high performing women receive negative feedback compared to only two
percent of high achieving men. And I think that is
worth talking about because for me, when Steven asked what's
the disconnect, I think a big part of the disconnect
is living right in that statistic. No one says it's
(16:59):
a bad idea conceptually to have women, and even less
enlightened men generally probably think it's at least or of
course it's fine. But how women get perceived, especially women
who are unafraid of being women and who are bringing
the best of women's leadership traits, which, hello, the social
science now says we all should be employing more in
(17:21):
modern business, but there are still these dare I say,
very now dated masculine archetypes. And so if you are
behaving that way, I think you know words like emotion
and passion, things that we've dismissed in the past. So
for me, that stat is so telling of where the
(17:42):
inequity happens, how we get judged once we're there, once
we're at the table, and I'm dying.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
To talk to you about that statistic. What do you
make of it? What do you do with it?
Speaker 4 (17:54):
That is a daunting statistic and is depressing. Yet it's
not about male female. It's about masculine feminine. You use
both of those terms. The masculine is the archetype, and
it's the qualities of the masculine decisive, linear, aggressive, assertive,
all of those analytic, the feminine, empathetic, compassionate, passionate, collaborative, listening,
(18:18):
team building, you know all of those things. And we
have referred to the masculine in the past as the
hard skills and as the essential skills because we keep
repeating them over and over, and we refer to the
feminine as the sauce skills. We need to use new
language which needs to be around those qualities of empathy
(18:39):
and compassion are the most essential critical skills of leadership today.
And you read about the human leader, and it's not
that it has to be a woman. It needs to
be a compassionate, empathetic leader. I don't care if your
man or a woman. We need empathy in the workplace
so that we can all language starts when someone starts
(19:03):
it patterns start when someone starts it, and then the
rest of us, yeah, adhere to it and even starting
to put it in your bios or in your profile.
I am a compassionate, empathetic human leader that delivers great
ROI like, go right.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
You know, I wholeheartedly subscribe to everything you just said,
But let me play Devil's advocate because we're obviously in
a moment where everything you just said is kind of
tossed out the window. I mean, one, you have so
many men and I'll single out men specifically that they
don't feel comfortable with the feminine term or the concepts
(19:45):
related or those traits, and then you see what is
winning again, it's a moment in time. I understand that,
but it is something where you see success and then
you see a generation of men and you know, Scott
Galloway talks a lot about it, all the challenges and
there really is something there and so how are we
(20:06):
able to kind of again, it really is almost a
rebranding exercise to your point, show because the language creates
reality and the language isn't working.
Speaker 4 (20:14):
Don't say so human leaders. We need real people that
are leading that understand that if you want everyone to thrive,
and you want to bring everyone to the table because
we need it. And I could give you the examples
of when you don't have it what happens then you succeed.
Just get rid of those terms. The truth is the
(20:36):
brain is wired and there's different component parts of the
right and left brain. There is real science around that.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
And your lizard brain. You know, things that are just
going to be natural and instinctive. Absolutely call whatever.
Speaker 4 (20:49):
You want, it doesn't really matter. At the end of
the day. We need human compassionate leadership. And when you
look at the rules of the workplace, especially in the US,
they were written over one hundred years ago. Buy men
for men, and I will use the word men, and
that's only because women weren't in the workplace as early
as men and women are still by default the primary caregiver.
(21:12):
And so if you actually understand where the challenges come
into place, then you can actually fix them. But if
we just keep talking in circles and not addressing the underline,
why is your statistic the way it is of the
seven and action? Why is it that for every hundred
men that get promoted, only eighty one women get promoted?
(21:32):
Go to the reasons A lot of it is. It
starts in the entry level position at first promotion, when
women won't ask for it and men not only ask
for it, but ask for the races. So that's where
the pay gap starts and kicks in. Pay gap also
kicks in at maternity leave three months because in general
men in the US don't take it. They feel it
(21:54):
shows a sign of weakness. If you actually understand where
the gaps kick in, where the motions kicking where are
language Guess who gets leadership training inside of companies? Think
about that. Women are the ones always either opting in
for leadership training raising their hands for leadership training, or
the ones that are suggested to have leadership training. Men
(22:16):
and women get management training. But who's getting leadership training?
What message does that send that says, I, as a woman,
am not a good strong leader and the men, by
default who I'm a strong leader, do it my way,
walk in my shoes because I'm what a leader looks like,
sounds like, talks like, acts like being.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
Me underqualified and overconfident. I think is you know so
many men and they continue to fail upwards right, which
is part of the challenge.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
We create the problem. So we have to take responsibility.
Stop fixing women, fix the system. Women are not broken.
We need everyone. That's what makes the world go around
diversity if you actually understand it. Not all these things. Oh,
it means getting asked to the dance, invited to talk
(23:08):
Turkey talk. Numbers show why it matters and why it doesn't.
The most basic examples of a seatbelt, they were designed
by men on mal anatomy. They are not comfortable on
boobs period exclamation point on our anatomy. Look at airbags,
the number one fatality is women. Why designed by man
(23:31):
on male dummies? Our bones are different, Like, you need
to have everyone at the table. We look at even
algorithms in AI, Why is there bias in it? Because
we are not reflecting everyone at the table when we
are creating the data that goes into the algorithms. I mean,
I can go on and on.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
God is going to open up a whole kind of words.
We're going to come back with that. We're going to
take a break through to a break and we are
going to come back because we need to address fixing
the system.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
We are back and in the midst of a great
conversation with Shelley. It's one that I'm passionate about, but
you know what, I appreciate it's one that Steven's passionate
about too, and that really matters in an eerror where
we talk a lot about what's performative, like actually having
allies and showing up and caring about it in meaningful
ways is part, I'm sure Shelley agree, of how we
(24:26):
fix the system. But let's go. You started to take
us here, Shelley, right as we were going to break
about AI. It's obviously topic that Steven's incredibly focused on,
but we all are. And actually he and I have
both spoken in the past year about the fact that
as the AI train explodes down the tracks, it's being
(24:46):
coded with bias. And when we talk about fixing the system,
why because the majority of the coding is being done
by men.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
And again, I hope no one.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Listening thinks this episode is about men, bad women and
good I know that's not Shelley's point of view. My
point of view is certainly not Steven's.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
That's not what this is about.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
This is about getting to the root cause of issues
to improve the way things work. But here we have
a whole new challenge emerging. Steven hensher you're going in
the Nvidia conference next week. I know you're digging in
on this one in a big way. How do we
get this train maybe back in the station, if you will,
(25:25):
and relaunch it without that inequity being built in.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
I mean, we're not asking the easy questions, by the way.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
It is just about progress forward, okay. And I don't
think that any of the challenges back had been intentional.
They just have been designed by not primary caregivers, or
by the norm by the majority, yes, not by the minorities.
(25:57):
And if you actually design a system with everyone in mind,
but with the collective minority, it will work for the
current majority. I mean, think about that. And if a caregiver,
a primary caregiver designed how the workplace worked, we wouldn't
(26:19):
have these challenges around parentally and who takes it. We
wouldn't have problems around pay gap. We have the numbers
in front of our face. We know the numbers. It
is kind of easy to fix if you want to.
It will cost you some money, but it's fixable. These
are all fixable challenges, and so I just say they're challenges,
(26:43):
but they're also amazing opportunities. Or if you look at data, right,
now we're in early days still of AI, but sort
of not really because that data, when you go into
historical data, we're pulling it into the algorithms today, so
we are perpetuating some of the biases. But if you
(27:06):
are aware and you can wait it or do some
kind of I don't know. I mean, I'm not an
expert in encoding this, but I can give you some
basic examples of things that nobody has thought about. For example,
when you get married, and I just wrote an article
on maiden names, a lot of women change their names
in the US, not so much around different parts of
(27:29):
the world. In the US, what happens. My married name
is Shelle Fleshner. My maid name is Shelle is Alice.
I did not change my name professionally, but if you do,
your name gets dropped in the algorithm. It doesn't know
how to combine the two. Now, there is a fix
around that when you know, by taking legal documents and
(27:50):
combining and fixing the algorithm, But no one has ever
talked about that or another example which I'm uncovering right now,
and this was a funny one with my husband and
who's a collarectal surgeon. In a published researcher. He's done
more research and cold and cancer and you know all
that kind of stuff. But if you have multiple names
in a published paper, the algorithm right now is only
(28:14):
picking up the first name, not the second, third, and fourth.
Interestingly enough, he teaches a lot of residents and felts.
He always puts their name first. He doesn't care because
he's published so much. But when I went and I
was doing research on him and I pulled up these stories,
these articles, I said, oh, but it was written by
so and so. He said, no, that was that was
(28:35):
my article. But he put his fellows and residents and
everything first, first, second, and third. He always puts himself last.
Women in general, we always co author and give everyone visibility. Hello,
what's going to happen. We'll get dropped in that algorithm
and we need that visibility. You're going to flip out
(28:56):
with this one that I just learned from my girlfriend
Sharon in women health or Health for women, the X
chromosome mice don't manstream.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Go on, yeah, okay, tell us for.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
Guess what's used in all experiments mice.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
It's a very interesting example.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
Why is there so much misdiagnosis in health? For women,
it's that X chromosome. I don't know that it has
to do with the lab rask because I'm praying and
hoping they have thought about that.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
But have you ever read that You're hitting on something
which again it's a data point, an important data point,
and then you extrapolated and part of the issue of
what you're really identifying is just the lack of having
the right representation in the room when these things are
being developed. When you think of where we are with
(29:51):
just you know, kind of women in the STEM fields, right,
you know, I think globally there's a percentage women constitute
twenty two percent of AI professionals globally, right, But then
you kind of double click into it, you know, what
are the positions in senior leadership roles, folks that are
actually leading the charge and developing, you know, kind of
the large language model specifically, And there's only about a
(30:12):
thousand individuals worldwide that actually have the expertise, So you're
talking about a very very small pool of talent that
is pretty much devising the matrix of the world that
we're going to be living in for the next generation.
And so having that lack of representation by the way
to your point, Shelley, everything has been ingested on the
(30:34):
public Internet, so all of the bias and all of
the misogyny and all of the right crap is now
in there, and it's now going to be done at scale.
It's a continuation of it. So I think, you know,
one of the things that I've I've found so you know,
kind of inspired by the work of the female quotient,
is just again holding leaders accountable. And I'm just curious
(30:55):
when you think about where you know kind of you
could focus. And I love your beginning statement of your
focus on businesses because they could control the controllabolls, they
can make the decisions. But specifically, I'm curious about the
role of women on boards. And as you well know,
in Europe they passed a law which by twenty twenty
(31:15):
six European companies EU companies need to have forty percent
of their non executive directors be women. And I know,
you know, people aren't crazy about quotas, but do you
feel like that type of mandate is impactful and effective
in really trying to bring the change that we're looking for.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
It's working. What needs to go with that, though, is
the contextualization and the framing of why it matters. It
doesn't matter because we just want to put women on
the board, and women of color. I want to bring
that up very clearly on the board. To be fair,
(31:55):
we are putting diversity on boards because it is important
for economic growth. It is instrumental for innovation. Like it's
not because oh, let's just be nice and poor.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
When it became about checking.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Boxes, No, it's a business imperative. It was the product
examples that you just named about the seatbelt and think
about the mice. Absolutely, and so.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
I want more storytelling around the why why If we
don't have blackfaces at the table, we are not going
to be developing innovation that reflects the society we need
to have. And by the way, when you say color too,
that is making color invisible. Let's say black, let's say brown.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
I've been on that for years. The whole idea of
calling it diversity, it basically, you know, kind of washes
away the specific needs of the black community, or the
Latino community, or the Asian community or what have you. You
need to be very specific.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
We want to say women. People say, well, what about
women to color? I'm like, I'm trying at people with
breast in a vagina to start, and then we can
go into the you know, color and go deeper. You know,
I was doing the umbrella.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
Thank you for qualifying that. I think maybe some of
our listeners might not know that, but that was an
important way to frame it.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
The other thing is you can say penis on TV,
but not vagina.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
I think, are you serious that that's not a thing.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Come on, that's the next great mission of the female quotient.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
The level about out right.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
We have the vagina model. I mean, that's in pop culture.
You should be able to say, you know, I just
human anatomy.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
I love where this conversation goes, though, because you know,
when I think about when I feel successful as a
leader as a marketer. Okay, and I'm living this right
now taking on all these new brands and in a
very successful one.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Thank you, But I'll say she's more of a successful
business leader than just marketers.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Steven's trying to make sure I rebrand myself.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
That language.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Language does matter, true, But I think about, and I've
said this very vocally even recently amongst my colleagues, like
we have to get to the basic why sometimes we
get so caught up in the gobblede Book of business
speak and marketing speak, and it's like, and I go
to why does it matter? Like why does this brand matter?
And I love that you're getting it to the most
fundamental part because I've lived this in corporations where it
(34:19):
did become a box checking exercise for real and you
lose you know, and diversity is now I'm so much
of this conversation with language matters. How did diversity become
now you know, a word that has a negative connotation
because I think we've lost the why and in many
cases we haven't pursued the why in our pursuit of diversity.
(34:42):
So for me, I think that my role at a
boardroom table is I am actually bringing different life experience,
different perspective, different understanding and insights of audiences that we're
trying to serve.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
And that is.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
About creating the right dialogue if there's openness to that dialogue,
if there's genuine openness for dialogue in a boardroom to say,
how do we make things better?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
How do we create growth?
Speaker 3 (35:07):
Can I just frame that a little bit for you, MRSA,
because you are now a senior executive at a very
large retailer and who is the core customer. Women are
driving a lot of that business, and so your voice
is incredibly important. And I think that's one of the
reasons why, you know, one of many reasons why you're successful.
(35:29):
If you're looking at tech companies where you know, in
the boardroom, they probably don't care about the female perspective, Shelley.
And again, you've been in a lot of these boardrooms.
They're probably not taking into accounts so much the female
perspective of a consumer because they might not view that
as driving business. They just think of users, right, they're
anonymized in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Do you think that's true though, or I mean, I
don't know that.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
It's so industry by industry at this point.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
Let's just use do language right now, because when you
were talking about Marisa sitting at the table, it's not
because she's a woman. I want to go more specific
and succinctly as a researcher, it's lived experience. If you
replace the word we need an entire canvas of lived experiences.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (36:20):
If all white men had a vast diversity of lived experience,
knock yourself out. But let's just go as simple as that.
If you have twenty four white men at the table
in the boardroom. Let's just assume I can guarantee you.
(36:42):
I can't tell you what percent, but probably less than
one percent is the primary caregiver. I can guarantee you
that with one hundred percent certainty none of them are
going through menopause. I can guarantee you with one thousand
percent certainty, they all don't live in underserved parts of
(37:03):
let's just say us in the country. So how can
that reflect the society you start unless all the people
that are buying your services and goods are all that
same profile, right, and so forget about whether it's men
and women. That's why I never say we need man.
(37:24):
I said we need conscious leaders because it's just such
important terminology because if someone was the Brian Mary caregiver,
as they would understand, when they make certain rules in
the workplace, it's going to isolate a certain segment and
give others the benefit of the visibility or the travel.
Speaker 3 (37:47):
Yeah, because you're bringing to the ideal customer profile, right,
the ICP. And when you think about from the business lens,
how are you going to connect letters ICP. It's using
tech all the time, but the ICP is when you're
building a product, when you're thinking about your UX and UI,
it's all down to what is the ideal customer profile.
I think like combining that with what you just said
(38:09):
is paramount, right, d E.
Speaker 4 (38:11):
And I plus ICP equals success.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
There you go, I'm curious, and it just to get personal.
You know, I was raised by a very power Latina, right.
My mom was a force of nature, you know, came
to this country as an immigrant in the sixties. You know,
I had a very matriarchal upbringing. All of my you know,
kind of most powerful you know kind of family members
(38:36):
were women, right, They were all Latinas. And then I
got into the workforce and I got exposed to just
incredible women at work. You know, from very early when
I was in private equity and investment banking, this woman
Voi McAusland, who was like one of the highest, you know,
most important, you know bankers, and you know she was
actually at JP Morgan, but you kind of pioneered a
(38:57):
lot of Latin American investment banking. Then, you know, kind
of fat forward. I get to work with folks in
media like Lisa McCarthy and and then when I went
to publicas with Laura Desmond to kind of fast forward
working for the CEO of New Star Lisa Hook, and
then you know, certainly partnering with folks like Marissa, you
know my podcasting partner in Purpose. I did a startup
(39:18):
with my wife Nuda Santa Maria Wolfe, and you know
my co founder Susi Hademiedo, who's now the CEO of Kando.
So I feel like I've been surrounded by women, and
I'm just curious about how you feel other men being
exposed and acknowledging the role of kind of women in there,
not just personal but also professional lives, because I feel
(39:41):
like that has to be a factor when you see
men in leadership roles being open to it or not.
Speaker 4 (39:47):
Everyone I know is open to it, and so it's
really about monitoring the you know, the change. And that's
why I say it's being a leader that is ethetic
and compassionate. I'm writing a new concept called the rose
gold rule. So we all talk about the Golden rule,
(40:08):
do unto others as you'd want done unto yourself. Then
people start talking about the Platinum rule, do unto others
as they'd want done unto themselves, because what might be
good for you might not be good for someone else.
So that was the Platinum rule, the rose Gold rule.
Do unto others as everyone would want done. It's why
(40:28):
we say we need to listen to here, why as CEO,
male or female needs to understand their workforce and then
of course the workplace, so that everyone is seen, heard, visible,
reflected in business, do unto others as everyone would want done.
(40:49):
As individual as lived experience, understand the lived experience, because
one person doesn't have all the knowledge. That's why it's
the power of the values that everyone brings into your company,
and why culture isn't top down, it's shared all around.
We all have responsibility to be amazing leaders. It doesn't
(41:10):
matter how many people report to you. Be a leader
of yourself, which is called choice and decisions of how
you treat people and how you listen and value people.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
I think that's the ultimate reframing from this conversation, and
I really value and appreciate it is as you said
earlier in the episode, if you're saying unconscious bias, you're conscious.
So how do we get real consciousness around the things
that even let's be fair well intentioned leaders. I think
(41:42):
going back to it may not be lack of intention.
I think it's lack of conscious awareness of how to
make these changes. And it needs yours and all of
our continued advocacy to call it out and to find
the simple and not actually daunting changes that can be
(42:03):
made if we're just aware and we just care.
Speaker 4 (42:05):
So it is awareness is the first step, yes, but
then it does require intentional action and prioritization and choice.
And you know, one of the things that I'm saying
to Fortune five hundred CEOs is leave a legacy in
the lifetime of your leadership and make this your choice
(42:26):
because you can actuate actively and realize the change and say, wow,
look what I've done, and don't leave the shit for
the next generation. Take it. And so it is awareness, yes,
but it also is not putting you know, these initiatives
into HR that don't have the budget, the accountability and responsibility.
(42:51):
The person with it is the leader of the company.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
It's systomach.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
HR reduces it in that sense, not that the HR
people reduce it. Putting it in HR reduces it.
Speaker 4 (43:02):
HR activates they can't initiate.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Yes, it's got to come from the top.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Gotta come from everywhere.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
Really, Okay, So clearly we could take this conversation on
and on, but we're gonna throw to a break and
when we come back, Shelley, will you play a little
speed round of cooler cringe with us?
Speaker 4 (43:19):
Sure, I'm not cool, I'm happy to play.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
We disagree with that entirely. We'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (43:33):
And we're back with the one and only Shelley's Alice
and we are ready to play some cool or cringe. Okay, So, Shelley,
I feel like we have to kick this off with
the term girl boss cool cringe?
Speaker 4 (43:45):
Cool? Why bosses?
Speaker 3 (43:48):
Well, I'm raising a girl boss. You know, my daughter
Siana's seven, but she's already a girl boss.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
You will be in Oh, totally. I'm proud to say
I've got to.
Speaker 4 (44:00):
I don't like loss better just boss.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
Well that's maybe that's the cooler cringe part, all right. Similarly,
company celebrating women's history months since we started acknowledging that's
at least the designation of March. What do you think
cooler cringe?
Speaker 4 (44:15):
I'm gonna say crin hmm, only because I think every
day we should be celebrating people that are doing remarkable
things and they happen to be women.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Yep, so here you're I like that answer.
Speaker 4 (44:27):
I need the context around it.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
Yeah, there you go. Okay, Steven, No for sure, all right?
Speaker 3 (44:33):
Cooler Cringe femtech great innovation? Or is this limiting women
to a niche market?
Speaker 4 (44:41):
I like tech X so tech X because it's the
X chromosome that's misunderstood or misdiagnosed important, So cool to
bring the visibility to it. Cringe because I don't want
people to think it's just fem for fem it's tech
(45:02):
for women's health and understanding that.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Yeah, I think you're right. I think it's so interesting.
There's such a spectrum we talk obviously the podcast is
brand new, a lot about brands, and we've seen some real,
I think embarrassing examples like the Women's pens, perfect example
of like, come on, but I think you know you've
brought up some incredibly crucial examples of where science research
(45:32):
has lagged in terms of putting women in, you know,
in the front and the consideration set of research. And
we see that whether it's your seatbelt example from earlier,
or how diseases are diagnosed and treated.
Speaker 4 (45:46):
Mister menopause.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
Al right, so maybe it's tech X X right for
the female chromosome.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
I love it x X yeah, fair enough, fair.
Speaker 3 (45:55):
Enough, Okay, we'll just cont the whole term X is now,
you know, brand meeting and exactly one more thing about FM.
Speaker 4 (46:02):
Tech athletes are athletes. You don't we talk about female athletes.
We never say, oh, let's focus on male athletes, right right.
And so the more we normalize sports is sports and
tech is tech, and we need to uncover every aspect
that needs understanding, the more will normalize the conversation.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Okay, so is that true of female founders too, Yes, right,
just be a founder, be a founder.
Speaker 4 (46:32):
An expert. You're an expert in cyber You're an expert.
And by the way, you happen to be female.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
Well, how about the term actor, right, because a lot
of women also just use actor versus actress.
Speaker 4 (46:44):
Sport flight attendant. You're a flight attendant. You're an actor.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
More firefighter, you are a firefighter.
Speaker 4 (46:53):
You know, when you ask people to draw pictures of firefighters,
they draw men because we say firemen are.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
What about chairman versus chairwoman?
Speaker 4 (47:03):
Chairperson? Chair You're the chair of the company.
Speaker 3 (47:07):
I might be more of a self or a couch,
but you know I'm with you.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
I'm okay, we're gonna just end on a fun one.
And I think this one could go either way. So
I'm really curious to hear what.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
You think the color pink cooler cringe specifically through the
lens of branding and design.
Speaker 4 (47:23):
I love pick so cool, but not when you're using
it to pick wash or you know, but I wear
a lot of PI.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
I wear a lot of pick as well.
Speaker 4 (47:33):
For the record, it looks looks good.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
It does.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
I like it too. I like it when it's a
choice not an assignment. How about that?
Speaker 3 (47:44):
Very good?
Speaker 4 (47:44):
I like rose gold better.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
Well said, well, I'm ready to read your article about
the rose Gold rules.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
So I like this new.
Speaker 4 (47:51):
And I think i'll bring it out you can. Maybe
it's good in Can. Then they could do a podcast.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
But tell me, isn't it true? I did the research
on this, you know, back in like nineteen eighteen, Pink
was the boy caller yea, and blue was the girl boyer.
Speaker 4 (48:04):
It's very true. And then they reversed it because pink
looks better on women, I mean and so, but it
was absolutely and I write about that also because it's
pretty funny.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
It is pretty funny. Well, I guess that shows the world.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
Can change, can it? And hopefully you are going to
help continue to be one of those people leading change
for the better. So Shelley's Alie, thank you so so
much for joining us. You know how much we adore
you and we're just happy to share you and all
your wisdom with everyone who's listening.
Speaker 4 (48:35):
Listen, it's the power of we, and it's the power
the collective, and you know, it's the power of the pack.
And I think that's how change really happens, because one
alone is invisible. Collectively we can impact whatever change we believe.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
So and as a wolf, I'm all about the power
of the pack. Y oh god, such a good line.
Oh the power of the wolf is in the pack,
and the power of the pack is in the world.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Oh there you go, bring it all back. Thank you, Shelley, Thank.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
You, Shelly. And now it's time for what's on your mind?
And the question this week comes from Mark. How does
the uncertainty in the economy or a possibility of a
recession change the way both of you are approaching work.
That's a meaty one, especially that you're in retail ORSSA,
do you want to tackle that first?
Speaker 1 (49:28):
Yeah, I almost I am pausing because I want to
think about all the different ways in which you can
answer a question like that, how do you approach work
when times are uncertain and it makes the need to
do more or the same with less even that much
more pronounced. That's true in business, and frankly, it becomes
true in life when people's resources become more constrained. And
(49:51):
we're seeing that, and so of course I think about
that every day as someone in retail, especially helming brands
that are in many cases pretty mass and so you
have to really have an appreciation and understanding for the
real lives of the customers that you're serving and how
(50:11):
they're living. And I guess what I've always loved about
being a marketer in mass because I've also done luxury too,
is making people feel like they can get great things
at a great value and not feel compromised. Because I
think that's really important. I think it's a big part
(50:32):
of the American promise, whatever we make of that these days,
is access to things that you really want as well
as need and having them be affordable and feeling the value.
So for me, it's just leaning in that much harder there.
But let's face it that creates macro headwinds on business
when people are really feeling constrained and not feeling constrained,
(50:56):
they are more constrained. There's job loss, there's inflation. So
it's not a new thing. Certainly, it's happened cyclically, but
I think it does put even more pressure on how
you create a relationship of trust and real value of customers. Now,
I'm curious to hear how you're going to answer that
because your work is so different. How are you thinking
(51:18):
about what you're doing through the lens of current economic uncertainty.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
Because we're focused on board directors and kind of getting
directors and the next generation of potential directors AI ready.
There is a concept that kind of started in a
lot of financial circles, but it's really been adopted within
the tech community called VUKA. And I'm not sure if
you're familiar for I AM, but it's volatility, uncertainty, complexity,
(51:45):
and ambiguity. Yes, And it's kind of just a constant, right,
especially when you deal with financial markets and you understand
kind of indices like the VIX which kind of measures
volatility in financial markets. Like as a portfolio manager, you're
always looking at volatiles in general, and so uncertainty just
comes with the markets. And we're now obviously in a
(52:05):
new administration, is creating a lot of oovlatility, a lot
of uncertainty. But it's always been a constant in technology.
If you're a startup, if you're you know, kind of building,
whatever it is, there's always uncertainty of a new startup
coming to disrupt you, and you know it might take
a little bit shorter or longer cycles. But you know,
we're now seeing you know, the world of search and
Google's you know, kind of bread and butter of you know,
(52:27):
kind of advertising search be disrupted right before our eyes.
So I feel like it's a constant and we're you know,
I've been spending a lot of my time. We interview
board directors all the time, and it's across every industry
from CpG to retail, to financial services to technology, you know, lodging,
you name it, and they're all dealing with this. And
(52:48):
so I think there's just this moment where people are
feeling exhausted, they're feeling very anxious, but it doesn't matter
because the uncertainty is only going to accelerate. And I think
really understanding where we are in this moment of it
could be a recession, it couldnot be. We're going to
see increased disruption because AI is going to start to
(53:09):
displace jobs at an accelerated rate. It's just accelerating. And
you know, if anyone you know gets an opportunity, both
you know, Ezra Kline and Kevin Ruce from the New
York Times, you know, one is an opinion columnst the
other's a tech columnist. They've both written really interesting articles
talking about you know kind of this, you know kind
of moment that it's accelerating, that we've crossed the event horizon.
(53:31):
So just I think the key thing is during uncertainty,
you just have to prepare, right, just how are you learning?
How are you getting ahead of the curve. And it's
on all of us in this moment to really learn
and prepare.
Speaker 2 (53:43):
It's Darwin, isn't it it is?
Speaker 3 (53:44):
I mean again, it's not new.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
It's about adaptation if.
Speaker 3 (53:47):
You're not changing your dead Well, on.
Speaker 2 (53:50):
That note, note, thank you for joining us. I hope
you enjoyed the conversation.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
We both do some substance, a couple of laughs, and
we hope that you continue to like what you're hearing
from us, so don't forget to subscribe.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
Please.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
We love hearing your questions, so shoot anything that's on
your minds to us at ideas at brandashnew dot com.
Follow us on all of our social channels, especially LinkedIn
and Instagram, and join us next time brand New
Hi, and thanks for joining us on brand New from
the iHeart Podcast Network and Brand New Labs.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I'm Marissa Thalberg.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
And I'm Stephen Wolf Bean Aida.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
We have to just talk about your first alpha Board conference.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
The alpha Board form very specific because we wanted to
be intimate and of substance, and it was amazing. You know.
We had, you know, call it just plus re minds,
about one hundred board directors, you know, kind of tech innovators,
folks from Executive Search. We had some investors. But honestly, Marsa,
We've spoken about this. We've been to so many events.
(00:43):
I'm just at a point where I'm tired of all
the kind of performative Q and A, all the bullshit
on panels, and we just wanted substance.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
How do you know when it's going to be a
good one versus not what makes a good one these days?
Speaker 3 (00:57):
My partners, you know, Alvin Bowles, you know, and Prove
was a part of it. We had a whole great
you know, kind of a bunch of co chairs. Jeff Berman,
you know, Read Hoffman's business partner of another pod master's
of scale. You know, we just had really great folks
to help curate the room, and so everyone was hand
picked and it was all focused again on board directors
and helping them get AI ready around AI governance. So
(01:20):
it's obviously a meaty subject, and we had three tracks
around governance, risk, and kind of strategy. You know, we
had an incredible speaker who kind of presented at the end,
James Buckhouse, who's a partner at Saquoia Capital, and he
spoke about ajenta AI. But he didn't just talk at people,
He actually showed it, and he built an agent to
help startups actually tell their stories in the format of
(01:41):
a ted talk. I mean, just so smart and brilliant.
It blew everyone in the room away. And so I
feel like when you can really control the way that
you're going to curate the room and curate the sessions
and just you know, take out all the all the
bs that we all just you know don't have time
for to connect, I think that was an equally it
was a part of the programming. The intermissions that we
(02:03):
had were actually designed to actually encourage people to connect
met people they didn't know. And you know, we had
policy makers. We had the former National Security Council advisor
who holped write the Executive Order on AI under Biden.
You know Aaron Cooper. Wow, we had real people of
substance and can't wait for the next one.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
You know.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I think what it comes down to, and this is
not a new insight, is time really is our most
precious commodity. And we think about this world of brands, media, tech,
et cetera. It's so busy that being being precious about
making sure that when you engage in these activities it's
time well spent. I mean, it's really different. But I
(02:42):
got invited by the folks at McCann to mc really
intimate dinner with some other cmos and it was Chathamhouse Rules.
So I'm not going to share what we talked about,
but just share that what made it special. I think
everyone felt time well spent is this one was intimate
And if you don't know what Chathamhouse Rules is sort
(03:04):
of like a code of what said in the room
stays in the room.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
We had the Alpha protocols for the Alpha board forums.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
But yes, yeah, but I think what's interesting is there's
times when you convene in big public ways that of
course the comments and the commentary and the big themes
are meant to be public. But there's such a value too,
especially when you are in leadership and being in safe
spaces with peers whom you can learn from and you admire,
(03:31):
and just being able to have real conversation on the
things that matter. And I think that's exactly what you're
saying happened at your conference and even what I felt like,
what was great about this small dinner. So here's two
more of that. And I have to say one other thing,
love that the CEO of McCann is a badass woman.
Because we're going to be talking about women, about equity,
(03:55):
about changing the dialogue.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Why who are we speaking about that?
Speaker 1 (03:59):
With spring on Shelley's salice.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
We are excited to have a true trailblazer and entrepreneur,
the one and only Shelley Zalas, who is an incredible businesswoman,
global advocate, creating a workplace for everyone. A former leader
in the research industry, Shelley, like many of us, found
ourself to be the only woman not me but babe,
(04:24):
but the only woman in the room in too many conferences,
in too many boardrooms, in too many companies. And she
was determined herself to change this equation for everyone in
the workplace, and thus was born the female Quotient and
the Female Quotient Lounge was first born at cs A
decade ago, and today the Female quotion has become the
(04:44):
largest global community of women in business united more than
six million women across thirty industries in more than one
hundred countries. It is breathtaking to see what you have built, Shelley,
Welcome to the brand new podcast.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Welcome co Ruso.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Because she is a citizen of the world.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
We are so happy to have you.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
I should say, or should I say, Happy Women's History Month,
because I think it's great. Also, I'm guessing makes us
both a little crazy that we have to call it
out and call out International Women's Day because here we
are in twenty twenty five, not only with the World
Economic Forum saying we are still one hundred and thirty
(05:28):
four years away from achieving gender equity at the current pace,
I'm frightening, but I mean and political statements aside, maybe
arguably going backwards is more than a few companies have
pushed their equity and DEI messaging back from what they
started in twenty twenty. So, Shelley, what are you saying
We're going to jump right into the hard stuff.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Who's doing it.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Right right now, who's backpedaling? Give us your take on
the landscape, particularly as it pertains to women and gen direquity.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Well, first, I'm so through alled and honored and inspired
to be here with both of you, my favorite people.
So this is incredible and to have unplugged, unscripted conversation,
because that's how change really happens, is when we just
get right at it and go to it, and you know,
there's language, there's conversation, and then there's intentional action for change,
(06:21):
and that's really what it will take. And I don't
think that it's just this political landscape that is setting
us back. The World Economic Forum has been publishing those
numbers for the last several years, and by the way,
you know that it's going to take over one hundred
and thirty four years to close the gender gap. It
was one hundred and thirty one last year.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
And no matter what, it's a not in our lifetime number,
which is depressing.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
So we're going backwards, is what you're saying.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
We've been going backwards. Yeah, but it's who's having the conversation,
who's publishing the numbers, and a quality is a decision.
It is a choice. You can either make it possible
or not. And you know, it really bothers me so
many times when you hear people say, oh, it's unconscious
(07:06):
or it's unconscious bias. Well, if you use the word unconscious,
you're conscious. And once you're conscious and aware that there
are numbers floating out there that it will take one
hundred and thirty four years to close the gender gap,
you ask yourself the question, do I want to do
something about it or not? And so I really have
never depended on public sector to fix our problems. You
(07:30):
can't control that, but what you can control is your choice.
And so I really hold private sector responsible because I
really believe that fortune five hundred CEOs have the choice
of fixing their workplace. They can't fix hunger, they can't
fix sustainability, they can't fix education. They don't control all
(07:52):
those variables in the world, but the one thing they
do control is what happens in their workplace and decisions
they make. So it is the only world problem that
I believe is fixable. We can flip it in five
with choice, intentional action, purpose driven leadership, and where there's
(08:13):
a will, there's.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
A way so how is that going now? Like, what's
your take on what you're seeing out there in terms
of be it the Fortune five hundred or beyond. Give
us a little bit of your take on the snapshot
of what's happening in corporations right now with regards to equity.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
And by the way, International Women's Day or Women's History Month,
why is it a month? Why is it a day?
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Right?
Speaker 4 (08:35):
We changed to invest in Women's.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Day exactly why?
Speaker 4 (08:38):
Because it's good for business, not a nice to have.
And so if you actually believe in business growth and
innovation and talent engagement and development and equal opportunity for
hiring the best talent for your business, then you actually
would not be just eliminating d E and I efforts
(09:01):
that you've worked so hard on inside of your company.
And those companies that are just dumping them, if you will,
are the ones that have used it as tactic or
as quota but not as strategy in their DNA. And
the ones that have incorporated it into the fabric of
their company, which is what it should be. Are the
(09:22):
ones standing up very loud and proudly saying we need
diversity inclusion because diversity is how we represent to reflect
the society, consumers, customers that we serve, and then you
need inclusive culture so everyone feels welcome and that they
belong and that they're heard and that they're seeing. I mean,
so it's not a complicated concept. And those that don't
(09:42):
are going to become Blockbuster or Polaroid because they won't
be listening and addressing their customers' needs around the world.
All of this stuff, I think is just talk right now.
And also people not really understanding what the message is.
So they're chief legal officers are saying to see is
just let it go because it's easier. And those that
(10:06):
are going to stand up and stand with it are
the ones that truly understand why it is so necessary.
And if you actually read the eoc's documents, they're not
saying wipe out the words women and wipe out diversity
for diversity's sake. They're saying, take a hard look inside
of your companies and ensure that you are hiring the
(10:27):
best talent to reflect your business needs. And they even
use the word equal opportunity, you know, equal opportunity for meritocracy.
Let's just put that out there. And so it is
a good moment of self reflection and for me, it's
a great moment to double down and triple up.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
So Shelley, you know, you've been at this for a minute,
and I saw respect to everything that you've done and
built because you've really been the champion and holding businesses accountable.
And I almost look at what you built with the
female quotion almost like the business Roundtable really bring all leaders,
you know, really to account. And you've been doing this
(11:09):
for you know, many years now. You show up at
you know, some of the most important places where leaders
are gathering, you know, from Davos to you know, to
cees that can do you name it. I'm just curious
to your point about DEI, like I always tell people,
don't use an acronym, say it out loud that you
don't believe in diversity, say it out loud that they
don't believe in equality and you don't believe in inclusion.
(11:29):
But when you're with these folks, you know, you're with
Jamie Diamond at Davos or you know whoever it is,
Read Hoffman, you know you're going to be up at
Nvidia next week. By the time this drops, it will
probably be happening live. Like when you are in the
room with these people and you ask them the questions
to their face, what is it that you see between
what they say and then what they do? Because there
(11:51):
is obviously an execution gap there.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
You know, listen right now, there's just a fear factor
because this was a new.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Men being afraid of women. Shockers.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
If only it were that simple.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
First of all, I don't even think it's male female.
I call it conscious leaders. You know, be a conscious leader,
and I don't care what your gender is. You know,
use your position of power to stand up, stand out
and by the ways, stand together with a united voice
on the importance of representation, reflection in the workforce, to
(12:26):
reflect the world that we serve. We know all the numbers,
to see all the McKenzie, you know reports that say
the diversity is not in nice to have, it's a
need to have. But we need to show and prove
the business case of what we are missing without diversity
at the table. And so the three letters of the alphabet.
(12:46):
I mean, when I started the female Quotient, this was
over eleven years ago, there was no d E and I.
There were HR departments, And if you actually watched what
happened with HR departments, hr cheek Ro became a CDO
Chief Diversity Officer, and then they became a CDIO, a
Chief Diversity Inclusion Officer, and then they became a CDIO
(13:10):
and it was the same person that was hired as
an HR person. Sometimes you got to look in and
look in the mirror and say, have I been using
diversity and inclusion to power my business or has it
been a tactic? Right? And so when you look at
these companies, I mean Jamie Jamie di'mond at JP Morgan.
(13:30):
When we started the girls Lounge at the World Economic Forum,
and my invitation was we want you to come, but
you might not feel welcome. My head said, don't go.
Who wants to go when someone is not going to
make me feel welcome? And my heart boom, folly, your
heart said, I must go. And who is that person
that is telling me I might not feel welcome? Why
(13:53):
am I just listening to status quo? Because it was
never done before? So most people think because something isn't
done before, it's going to be hard or it's not
the right way because it wasn't the status quote textbook way.
And so once we came and we brought fifty women
and had a slumber party and went from a moment
(14:14):
to movement overnight because we made ourselves feel welcome by
bringing our own party. You know, the World Economic Forum
can invite what guests they want to their table.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
You created a new table. But you have these conversations,
You've been talking to them for a minute. What is
still holding folks back? Because again, I just don't understand
how anyone can argue against the things that you have
been really espousing.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
Well, it's what Jamie said. Jamie said, this is the
best thing I've ever seen. Count me in every year
as your speaker and your sponsor. What's holding us back? Mindset?
Or right now? With the new DEE and I regulation
quote unquote that came down on everyone, I think people
just need a minute to adjust because there is a
(14:55):
fear factor. They all have government contracts and federal contracts
and they don't want to be at risk. So they
just need to do their inside look quickly assess that
maybe some of the things they were doing they don't
they shouldn't be doing anymore. They weren't working, and the
things they were doing they need to go bigger and
(15:17):
bolder because it is a twelve trillion dollar opportunity. Equal
pay can create so many more jobs and opportunities in
the United States. The way it came down it was harsh.
But in Biden's administration, we lost our caregiving facilities. Now
that wasn't his fault necessarily because he added them and
(15:38):
created them, but then they were taking away and companies
had to adjust. Or when you look at the Obama administration,
I mean, every administration has the power to create new
law and legislation and women's rights, I mean, on so
many levels. But if you actually look in your heart
and inside and say what matters, what is important for
(15:59):
my business business, you are going to do the right
thing and stand behind it, regardless of the fear factor
of what might happen, which I don't think will happen
if companies are doing it for the right reasons.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Here's what I've come to realize, having been now in
the boardrooms of multiple companies as a C suite executive
and unabashed woman who has championed for it from founding
Executive Moms years ago and being in front of it
is and you guys on your social channels, publish the
stat that I've seen, and I don't think there are
too many other stats that make me burn more than
(16:37):
this one, So I'm going to share it with everyone,
which is that research shows around seventy six percent of
high performing women receive negative feedback compared to only two
percent of high achieving men. And I think that is
worth talking about because for me, when Steven asked what's
the disconnect, I think a big part of the disconnect
is living right in that statistic. No one says it's
(16:59):
a bad idea conceptually to have women, and even less
enlightened men generally probably think it's at least or of
course it's fine. But how women get perceived, especially women
who are unafraid of being women and who are bringing
the best of women's leadership traits, which, hello, the social
science now says we all should be employing more in
(17:21):
modern business, but there are still these dare I say,
very now dated masculine archetypes. And so if you are
behaving that way, I think you know words like emotion
and passion, things that we've dismissed in the past. So
for me, that stat is so telling of where the
(17:42):
inequity happens, how we get judged once we're there, once
we're at the table, and I'm dying.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
To talk to you about that statistic. What do you
make of it? What do you do with it?
Speaker 4 (17:54):
That is a daunting statistic and is depressing. Yet it's
not about male female. It's about masculine feminine. You use
both of those terms. The masculine is the archetype, and
it's the qualities of the masculine decisive, linear, aggressive, assertive,
all of those analytic, the feminine, empathetic, compassionate, passionate, collaborative, listening,
(18:18):
team building, you know all of those things. And we
have referred to the masculine in the past as the
hard skills and as the essential skills because we keep
repeating them over and over, and we refer to the
feminine as the sauce skills. We need to use new
language which needs to be around those qualities of empathy
(18:39):
and compassion are the most essential critical skills of leadership today.
And you read about the human leader, and it's not
that it has to be a woman. It needs to
be a compassionate, empathetic leader. I don't care if your
man or a woman. We need empathy in the workplace
so that we can all language starts when someone starts
(19:03):
it patterns start when someone starts it, and then the
rest of us, yeah, adhere to it and even starting
to put it in your bios or in your profile.
I am a compassionate, empathetic human leader that delivers great
ROI like, go right.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
You know, I wholeheartedly subscribe to everything you just said,
But let me play Devil's advocate because we're obviously in
a moment where everything you just said is kind of
tossed out the window. I mean, one, you have so
many men and I'll single out men specifically that they
don't feel comfortable with the feminine term or the concepts
(19:45):
related or those traits, and then you see what is
winning again, it's a moment in time. I understand that,
but it is something where you see success and then
you see a generation of men and you know, Scott
Galloway talks a lot about it, all the challenges and
there really is something there and so how are we
(20:06):
able to kind of again, it really is almost a
rebranding exercise to your point, show because the language creates
reality and the language isn't working.
Speaker 4 (20:14):
Don't say so human leaders. We need real people that
are leading that understand that if you want everyone to thrive,
and you want to bring everyone to the table because
we need it. And I could give you the examples
of when you don't have it what happens then you succeed.
Just get rid of those terms. The truth is the
(20:36):
brain is wired and there's different component parts of the
right and left brain. There is real science around that.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
And your lizard brain. You know, things that are just
going to be natural and instinctive. Absolutely call whatever.
Speaker 4 (20:49):
You want, it doesn't really matter. At the end of
the day. We need human compassionate leadership. And when you
look at the rules of the workplace, especially in the US,
they were written over one hundred years ago. Buy men
for men, and I will use the word men, and
that's only because women weren't in the workplace as early
as men and women are still by default the primary caregiver.
(21:12):
And so if you actually understand where the challenges come
into place, then you can actually fix them. But if
we just keep talking in circles and not addressing the underline,
why is your statistic the way it is of the
seven and action? Why is it that for every hundred
men that get promoted, only eighty one women get promoted?
(21:32):
Go to the reasons A lot of it is. It
starts in the entry level position at first promotion, when
women won't ask for it and men not only ask
for it, but ask for the races. So that's where
the pay gap starts and kicks in. Pay gap also
kicks in at maternity leave three months because in general
men in the US don't take it. They feel it
(21:54):
shows a sign of weakness. If you actually understand where
the gaps kick in, where the motions kicking where are
language Guess who gets leadership training inside of companies? Think
about that. Women are the ones always either opting in
for leadership training raising their hands for leadership training, or
the ones that are suggested to have leadership training. Men
(22:16):
and women get management training. But who's getting leadership training?
What message does that send that says, I, as a woman,
am not a good strong leader and the men, by
default who I'm a strong leader, do it my way,
walk in my shoes because I'm what a leader looks like,
sounds like, talks like, acts like being.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
Me underqualified and overconfident. I think is you know so
many men and they continue to fail upwards right, which
is part of the challenge.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
We create the problem. So we have to take responsibility.
Stop fixing women, fix the system. Women are not broken.
We need everyone. That's what makes the world go around
diversity if you actually understand it. Not all these things. Oh,
it means getting asked to the dance, invited to talk
(23:08):
Turkey talk. Numbers show why it matters and why it doesn't.
The most basic examples of a seatbelt, they were designed
by men on mal anatomy. They are not comfortable on
boobs period exclamation point on our anatomy. Look at airbags,
the number one fatality is women. Why designed by man
(23:31):
on male dummies? Our bones are different, Like, you need
to have everyone at the table. We look at even
algorithms in AI, Why is there bias in it? Because
we are not reflecting everyone at the table when we
are creating the data that goes into the algorithms. I mean,
I can go on and on.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
God is going to open up a whole kind of words.
We're going to come back with that. We're going to
take a break through to a break and we are
going to come back because we need to address fixing
the system.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
We are back and in the midst of a great
conversation with Shelley. It's one that I'm passionate about, but
you know what, I appreciate it's one that Steven's passionate
about too, and that really matters in an eerror where
we talk a lot about what's performative, like actually having
allies and showing up and caring about it in meaningful
ways is part, I'm sure Shelley agree, of how we
(24:26):
fix the system. But let's go. You started to take
us here, Shelley, right as we were going to break
about AI. It's obviously topic that Steven's incredibly focused on,
but we all are. And actually he and I have
both spoken in the past year about the fact that
as the AI train explodes down the tracks, it's being
(24:46):
coded with bias. And when we talk about fixing the system,
why because the majority of the coding is being done
by men.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
And again, I hope no one.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Listening thinks this episode is about men, bad women and
good I know that's not Shelley's point of view. My
point of view is certainly not Steven's.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
That's not what this is about.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
This is about getting to the root cause of issues
to improve the way things work. But here we have
a whole new challenge emerging. Steven hensher you're going in
the Nvidia conference next week. I know you're digging in
on this one in a big way. How do we
get this train maybe back in the station, if you will,
(25:25):
and relaunch it without that inequity being built in.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
I mean, we're not asking the easy questions, by the way.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
It is just about progress forward, okay. And I don't
think that any of the challenges back had been intentional.
They just have been designed by not primary caregivers, or
by the norm by the majority, yes, not by the minorities.
(25:57):
And if you actually design a system with everyone in mind,
but with the collective minority, it will work for the
current majority. I mean, think about that. And if a caregiver,
a primary caregiver designed how the workplace worked, we wouldn't
(26:19):
have these challenges around parentally and who takes it. We
wouldn't have problems around pay gap. We have the numbers
in front of our face. We know the numbers. It
is kind of easy to fix if you want to.
It will cost you some money, but it's fixable. These
are all fixable challenges, and so I just say they're challenges,
(26:43):
but they're also amazing opportunities. Or if you look at data, right,
now we're in early days still of AI, but sort
of not really because that data, when you go into
historical data, we're pulling it into the algorithms today, so
we are perpetuating some of the biases. But if you
(27:06):
are aware and you can wait it or do some
kind of I don't know. I mean, I'm not an
expert in encoding this, but I can give you some
basic examples of things that nobody has thought about. For example,
when you get married, and I just wrote an article
on maiden names, a lot of women change their names
in the US, not so much around different parts of
(27:29):
the world. In the US, what happens. My married name
is Shelle Fleshner. My maid name is Shelle is Alice.
I did not change my name professionally, but if you do,
your name gets dropped in the algorithm. It doesn't know
how to combine the two. Now, there is a fix
around that when you know, by taking legal documents and
(27:50):
combining and fixing the algorithm, But no one has ever
talked about that or another example which I'm uncovering right now,
and this was a funny one with my husband and
who's a collarectal surgeon. In a published researcher. He's done
more research and cold and cancer and you know all
that kind of stuff. But if you have multiple names
in a published paper, the algorithm right now is only
(28:14):
picking up the first name, not the second, third, and fourth.
Interestingly enough, he teaches a lot of residents and felts.
He always puts their name first. He doesn't care because
he's published so much. But when I went and I
was doing research on him and I pulled up these stories,
these articles, I said, oh, but it was written by
so and so. He said, no, that was that was
(28:35):
my article. But he put his fellows and residents and
everything first, first, second, and third. He always puts himself last.
Women in general, we always co author and give everyone visibility. Hello,
what's going to happen. We'll get dropped in that algorithm
and we need that visibility. You're going to flip out
(28:56):
with this one that I just learned from my girlfriend
Sharon in women health or Health for women, the X
chromosome mice don't manstream.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Go on, yeah, okay, tell us for.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
Guess what's used in all experiments mice.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
It's a very interesting example.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
Why is there so much misdiagnosis in health? For women,
it's that X chromosome. I don't know that it has
to do with the lab rask because I'm praying and
hoping they have thought about that.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
But have you ever read that You're hitting on something
which again it's a data point, an important data point,
and then you extrapolated and part of the issue of
what you're really identifying is just the lack of having
the right representation in the room when these things are
being developed. When you think of where we are with
(29:51):
just you know, kind of women in the STEM fields, right,
you know, I think globally there's a percentage women constitute
twenty two percent of AI professionals globally, right, But then
you kind of double click into it, you know, what
are the positions in senior leadership roles, folks that are
actually leading the charge and developing, you know, kind of
the large language model specifically, And there's only about a
(30:12):
thousand individuals worldwide that actually have the expertise, So you're
talking about a very very small pool of talent that
is pretty much devising the matrix of the world that
we're going to be living in for the next generation.
And so having that lack of representation by the way
to your point, Shelley, everything has been ingested on the
(30:34):
public Internet, so all of the bias and all of
the misogyny and all of the right crap is now
in there, and it's now going to be done at scale.
It's a continuation of it. So I think, you know,
one of the things that I've I've found so you know,
kind of inspired by the work of the female quotient,
is just again holding leaders accountable. And I'm just curious
(30:55):
when you think about where you know kind of you
could focus. And I love your beginning statement of your
focus on businesses because they could control the controllabolls, they
can make the decisions. But specifically, I'm curious about the
role of women on boards. And as you well know,
in Europe they passed a law which by twenty twenty
(31:15):
six European companies EU companies need to have forty percent
of their non executive directors be women. And I know,
you know, people aren't crazy about quotas, but do you
feel like that type of mandate is impactful and effective
in really trying to bring the change that we're looking for.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
It's working. What needs to go with that, though, is
the contextualization and the framing of why it matters. It
doesn't matter because we just want to put women on
the board, and women of color. I want to bring
that up very clearly on the board. To be fair,
(31:55):
we are putting diversity on boards because it is important
for economic growth. It is instrumental for innovation. Like it's
not because oh, let's just be nice and poor.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
When it became about checking.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Boxes, No, it's a business imperative. It was the product
examples that you just named about the seatbelt and think
about the mice. Absolutely, and so.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
I want more storytelling around the why why If we
don't have blackfaces at the table, we are not going
to be developing innovation that reflects the society we need
to have. And by the way, when you say color too,
that is making color invisible. Let's say black, let's say brown.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
I've been on that for years. The whole idea of
calling it diversity, it basically, you know, kind of washes
away the specific needs of the black community, or the
Latino community, or the Asian community or what have you. You
need to be very specific.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
We want to say women. People say, well, what about
women to color? I'm like, I'm trying at people with
breast in a vagina to start, and then we can
go into the you know, color and go deeper. You know,
I was doing the umbrella.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
Thank you for qualifying that. I think maybe some of
our listeners might not know that, but that was an
important way to frame it.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
The other thing is you can say penis on TV,
but not vagina.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
I think, are you serious that that's not a thing.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Come on, that's the next great mission of the female quotient.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
The level about out right.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
We have the vagina model. I mean, that's in pop culture.
You should be able to say, you know, I just
human anatomy.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
I love where this conversation goes, though, because you know,
when I think about when I feel successful as a
leader as a marketer. Okay, and I'm living this right
now taking on all these new brands and in a
very successful one.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Thank you, But I'll say she's more of a successful
business leader than just marketers.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Steven's trying to make sure I rebrand myself.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
That language.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Language does matter, true, But I think about, and I've
said this very vocally even recently amongst my colleagues, like
we have to get to the basic why sometimes we
get so caught up in the gobblede Book of business
speak and marketing speak, and it's like, and I go
to why does it matter? Like why does this brand matter?
And I love that you're getting it to the most
fundamental part because I've lived this in corporations where it
(34:19):
did become a box checking exercise for real and you
lose you know, and diversity is now I'm so much
of this conversation with language matters. How did diversity become
now you know, a word that has a negative connotation
because I think we've lost the why and in many
cases we haven't pursued the why in our pursuit of diversity.
(34:42):
So for me, I think that my role at a
boardroom table is I am actually bringing different life experience,
different perspective, different understanding and insights of audiences that we're
trying to serve.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
And that is.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
About creating the right dialogue if there's openness to that dialogue,
if there's genuine openness for dialogue in a boardroom to say,
how do we make things better?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
How do we create growth?
Speaker 3 (35:07):
Can I just frame that a little bit for you, MRSA,
because you are now a senior executive at a very
large retailer and who is the core customer. Women are
driving a lot of that business, and so your voice
is incredibly important. And I think that's one of the
reasons why, you know, one of many reasons why you're successful.
(35:29):
If you're looking at tech companies where you know, in
the boardroom, they probably don't care about the female perspective, Shelley.
And again, you've been in a lot of these boardrooms.
They're probably not taking into accounts so much the female
perspective of a consumer because they might not view that
as driving business. They just think of users, right, they're
anonymized in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Do you think that's true though, or I mean, I
don't know that.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
It's so industry by industry at this point.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
Let's just use do language right now, because when you
were talking about Marisa sitting at the table, it's not
because she's a woman. I want to go more specific
and succinctly as a researcher, it's lived experience. If you
replace the word we need an entire canvas of lived experiences.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (36:20):
If all white men had a vast diversity of lived experience,
knock yourself out. But let's just go as simple as that.
If you have twenty four white men at the table
in the boardroom. Let's just assume I can guarantee you.
(36:42):
I can't tell you what percent, but probably less than
one percent is the primary caregiver. I can guarantee you
that with one hundred percent certainty none of them are
going through menopause. I can guarantee you with one thousand
percent certainty, they all don't live in underserved parts of
(37:03):
let's just say us in the country. So how can
that reflect the society you start unless all the people
that are buying your services and goods are all that
same profile, right, and so forget about whether it's men
and women. That's why I never say we need man.
(37:24):
I said we need conscious leaders because it's just such
important terminology because if someone was the Brian Mary caregiver,
as they would understand, when they make certain rules in
the workplace, it's going to isolate a certain segment and
give others the benefit of the visibility or the travel.
Speaker 3 (37:47):
Yeah, because you're bringing to the ideal customer profile, right,
the ICP. And when you think about from the business lens,
how are you going to connect letters ICP. It's using
tech all the time, but the ICP is when you're
building a product, when you're thinking about your UX and UI,
it's all down to what is the ideal customer profile.
I think like combining that with what you just said
(38:09):
is paramount, right, d E.
Speaker 4 (38:11):
And I plus ICP equals success.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
There you go, I'm curious, and it just to get personal.
You know, I was raised by a very power Latina, right.
My mom was a force of nature, you know, came
to this country as an immigrant in the sixties. You know,
I had a very matriarchal upbringing. All of my you know,
kind of most powerful you know kind of family members
(38:36):
were women, right, They were all Latinas. And then I
got into the workforce and I got exposed to just
incredible women at work. You know, from very early when
I was in private equity and investment banking, this woman
Voi McAusland, who was like one of the highest, you know,
most important, you know bankers, and you know she was
actually at JP Morgan, but you kind of pioneered a
(38:57):
lot of Latin American investment banking. Then, you know, kind
of fat forward. I get to work with folks in
media like Lisa McCarthy and and then when I went
to publicas with Laura Desmond to kind of fast forward
working for the CEO of New Star Lisa Hook, and
then you know, certainly partnering with folks like Marissa, you
know my podcasting partner in Purpose. I did a startup
(39:18):
with my wife Nuda Santa Maria Wolfe, and you know
my co founder Susi Hademiedo, who's now the CEO of Kando.
So I feel like I've been surrounded by women, and
I'm just curious about how you feel other men being
exposed and acknowledging the role of kind of women in there,
not just personal but also professional lives, because I feel
(39:41):
like that has to be a factor when you see
men in leadership roles being open to it or not.
Speaker 4 (39:47):
Everyone I know is open to it, and so it's
really about monitoring the you know, the change. And that's
why I say it's being a leader that is ethetic
and compassionate. I'm writing a new concept called the rose
gold rule. So we all talk about the Golden rule,
(40:08):
do unto others as you'd want done unto yourself. Then
people start talking about the Platinum rule, do unto others
as they'd want done unto themselves, because what might be
good for you might not be good for someone else.
So that was the Platinum rule, the rose Gold rule.
Do unto others as everyone would want done. It's why
(40:28):
we say we need to listen to here, why as CEO,
male or female needs to understand their workforce and then
of course the workplace, so that everyone is seen, heard, visible,
reflected in business, do unto others as everyone would want done.
(40:49):
As individual as lived experience, understand the lived experience, because
one person doesn't have all the knowledge. That's why it's
the power of the values that everyone brings into your company,
and why culture isn't top down, it's shared all around.
We all have responsibility to be amazing leaders. It doesn't
(41:10):
matter how many people report to you. Be a leader
of yourself, which is called choice and decisions of how
you treat people and how you listen and value people.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
I think that's the ultimate reframing from this conversation, and
I really value and appreciate it is as you said
earlier in the episode, if you're saying unconscious bias, you're conscious.
So how do we get real consciousness around the things
that even let's be fair well intentioned leaders. I think
(41:42):
going back to it may not be lack of intention.
I think it's lack of conscious awareness of how to
make these changes. And it needs yours and all of
our continued advocacy to call it out and to find
the simple and not actually daunting changes that can be
(42:03):
made if we're just aware and we just care.
Speaker 4 (42:05):
So it is awareness is the first step, yes, but
then it does require intentional action and prioritization and choice.
And you know, one of the things that I'm saying
to Fortune five hundred CEOs is leave a legacy in
the lifetime of your leadership and make this your choice
(42:26):
because you can actuate actively and realize the change and say, wow,
look what I've done, and don't leave the shit for
the next generation. Take it. And so it is awareness, yes,
but it also is not putting you know, these initiatives
into HR that don't have the budget, the accountability and responsibility.
(42:51):
The person with it is the leader of the company.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
It's systomach.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
HR reduces it in that sense, not that the HR
people reduce it. Putting it in HR reduces it.
Speaker 4 (43:02):
HR activates they can't initiate.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Yes, it's got to come from the top.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Gotta come from everywhere.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
Really, Okay, So clearly we could take this conversation on
and on, but we're gonna throw to a break and
when we come back, Shelley, will you play a little
speed round of cooler cringe with us?
Speaker 4 (43:19):
Sure, I'm not cool, I'm happy to play.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
We disagree with that entirely. We'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (43:33):
And we're back with the one and only Shelley's Alice
and we are ready to play some cool or cringe. Okay, So, Shelley,
I feel like we have to kick this off with
the term girl boss cool cringe?
Speaker 4 (43:45):
Cool? Why bosses?
Speaker 3 (43:48):
Well, I'm raising a girl boss. You know, my daughter
Siana's seven, but she's already a girl boss.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
You will be in Oh, totally. I'm proud to say
I've got to.
Speaker 4 (44:00):
I don't like loss better just boss.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
Well that's maybe that's the cooler cringe part, all right. Similarly,
company celebrating women's history months since we started acknowledging that's
at least the designation of March. What do you think
cooler cringe?
Speaker 4 (44:15):
I'm gonna say crin hmm, only because I think every
day we should be celebrating people that are doing remarkable
things and they happen to be women.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Yep, so here you're I like that answer.
Speaker 4 (44:27):
I need the context around it.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
Yeah, there you go. Okay, Steven, No for sure, all right?
Speaker 3 (44:33):
Cooler Cringe femtech great innovation? Or is this limiting women
to a niche market?
Speaker 4 (44:41):
I like tech X so tech X because it's the
X chromosome that's misunderstood or misdiagnosed important, So cool to
bring the visibility to it. Cringe because I don't want
people to think it's just fem for fem it's tech
(45:02):
for women's health and understanding that.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Yeah, I think you're right. I think it's so interesting.
There's such a spectrum we talk obviously the podcast is
brand new, a lot about brands, and we've seen some real,
I think embarrassing examples like the Women's pens, perfect example
of like, come on, but I think you know you've
brought up some incredibly crucial examples of where science research
(45:32):
has lagged in terms of putting women in, you know,
in the front and the consideration set of research. And
we see that whether it's your seatbelt example from earlier,
or how diseases are diagnosed and treated.
Speaker 4 (45:46):
Mister menopause.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
Al right, so maybe it's tech X X right for
the female chromosome.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
I love it x X yeah, fair enough, fair.
Speaker 3 (45:55):
Enough, Okay, we'll just cont the whole term X is now,
you know, brand meeting and exactly one more thing about FM.
Speaker 4 (46:02):
Tech athletes are athletes. You don't we talk about female athletes.
We never say, oh, let's focus on male athletes, right right.
And so the more we normalize sports is sports and
tech is tech, and we need to uncover every aspect
that needs understanding, the more will normalize the conversation.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Okay, so is that true of female founders too, Yes, right,
just be a founder, be a founder.
Speaker 4 (46:32):
An expert. You're an expert in cyber You're an expert.
And by the way, you happen to be female.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
Well, how about the term actor, right, because a lot
of women also just use actor versus actress.
Speaker 4 (46:44):
Sport flight attendant. You're a flight attendant. You're an actor.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
More firefighter, you are a firefighter.
Speaker 4 (46:53):
You know, when you ask people to draw pictures of firefighters,
they draw men because we say firemen are.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
What about chairman versus chairwoman?
Speaker 4 (47:03):
Chairperson? Chair You're the chair of the company.
Speaker 3 (47:07):
I might be more of a self or a couch,
but you know I'm with you.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
I'm okay, we're gonna just end on a fun one.
And I think this one could go either way. So
I'm really curious to hear what.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
You think the color pink cooler cringe specifically through the
lens of branding and design.
Speaker 4 (47:23):
I love pick so cool, but not when you're using
it to pick wash or you know, but I wear
a lot of PI.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
I wear a lot of pick as well.
Speaker 4 (47:33):
For the record, it looks looks good.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
It does.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
I like it too. I like it when it's a
choice not an assignment. How about that?
Speaker 3 (47:44):
Very good?
Speaker 4 (47:44):
I like rose gold better.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
Well said, well, I'm ready to read your article about
the rose Gold rules.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
So I like this new.
Speaker 4 (47:51):
And I think i'll bring it out you can. Maybe
it's good in Can. Then they could do a podcast.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
But tell me, isn't it true? I did the research
on this, you know, back in like nineteen eighteen, Pink
was the boy caller yea, and blue was the girl boyer.
Speaker 4 (48:04):
It's very true. And then they reversed it because pink
looks better on women, I mean and so, but it
was absolutely and I write about that also because it's
pretty funny.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
It is pretty funny. Well, I guess that shows the world.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
Can change, can it? And hopefully you are going to
help continue to be one of those people leading change
for the better. So Shelley's Alie, thank you so so
much for joining us. You know how much we adore
you and we're just happy to share you and all
your wisdom with everyone who's listening.
Speaker 4 (48:35):
Listen, it's the power of we, and it's the power
the collective, and you know, it's the power of the pack.
And I think that's how change really happens, because one
alone is invisible. Collectively we can impact whatever change we believe.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
So and as a wolf, I'm all about the power
of the pack. Y oh god, such a good line.
Oh the power of the wolf is in the pack,
and the power of the pack is in the world.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Oh there you go, bring it all back. Thank you, Shelley, Thank.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
You, Shelly. And now it's time for what's on your mind?
And the question this week comes from Mark. How does
the uncertainty in the economy or a possibility of a
recession change the way both of you are approaching work.
That's a meaty one, especially that you're in retail ORSSA,
do you want to tackle that first?
Speaker 1 (49:28):
Yeah, I almost I am pausing because I want to
think about all the different ways in which you can
answer a question like that, how do you approach work
when times are uncertain and it makes the need to
do more or the same with less even that much
more pronounced. That's true in business, and frankly, it becomes
true in life when people's resources become more constrained. And
(49:51):
we're seeing that, and so of course I think about
that every day as someone in retail, especially helming brands
that are in many cases pretty mass and so you
have to really have an appreciation and understanding for the
real lives of the customers that you're serving and how
(50:11):
they're living. And I guess what I've always loved about
being a marketer in mass because I've also done luxury too,
is making people feel like they can get great things
at a great value and not feel compromised. Because I
think that's really important. I think it's a big part
(50:32):
of the American promise, whatever we make of that these days,
is access to things that you really want as well
as need and having them be affordable and feeling the value.
So for me, it's just leaning in that much harder there.
But let's face it that creates macro headwinds on business
when people are really feeling constrained and not feeling constrained,
(50:56):
they are more constrained. There's job loss, there's inflation. So
it's not a new thing. Certainly, it's happened cyclically, but
I think it does put even more pressure on how
you create a relationship of trust and real value of customers. Now,
I'm curious to hear how you're going to answer that
because your work is so different. How are you thinking
(51:18):
about what you're doing through the lens of current economic uncertainty.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
Because we're focused on board directors and kind of getting
directors and the next generation of potential directors AI ready.
There is a concept that kind of started in a
lot of financial circles, but it's really been adopted within
the tech community called VUKA. And I'm not sure if
you're familiar for I AM, but it's volatility, uncertainty, complexity,
(51:45):
and ambiguity. Yes, And it's kind of just a constant, right,
especially when you deal with financial markets and you understand
kind of indices like the VIX which kind of measures
volatility in financial markets. Like as a portfolio manager, you're
always looking at volatiles in general, and so uncertainty just
comes with the markets. And we're now obviously in a
(52:05):
new administration, is creating a lot of oovlatility, a lot
of uncertainty. But it's always been a constant in technology.
If you're a startup, if you're you know, kind of building,
whatever it is, there's always uncertainty of a new startup
coming to disrupt you, and you know it might take
a little bit shorter or longer cycles. But you know,
we're now seeing you know, the world of search and
Google's you know, kind of bread and butter of you know,
(52:27):
kind of advertising search be disrupted right before our eyes.
So I feel like it's a constant and we're you know,
I've been spending a lot of my time. We interview
board directors all the time, and it's across every industry
from CpG to retail, to financial services to technology, you know, lodging,
you name it, and they're all dealing with this. And
(52:48):
so I think there's just this moment where people are
feeling exhausted, they're feeling very anxious, but it doesn't matter
because the uncertainty is only going to accelerate. And I think
really understanding where we are in this moment of it
could be a recession, it couldnot be. We're going to
see increased disruption because AI is going to start to
(53:09):
displace jobs at an accelerated rate. It's just accelerating. And
you know, if anyone you know gets an opportunity, both
you know, Ezra Kline and Kevin Ruce from the New
York Times, you know, one is an opinion columnst the
other's a tech columnist. They've both written really interesting articles
talking about you know kind of this, you know kind
of moment that it's accelerating, that we've crossed the event horizon.
(53:31):
So just I think the key thing is during uncertainty,
you just have to prepare, right, just how are you learning?
How are you getting ahead of the curve. And it's
on all of us in this moment to really learn
and prepare.
Speaker 2 (53:43):
It's Darwin, isn't it it is?
Speaker 3 (53:44):
I mean again, it's not new.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
It's about adaptation if.
Speaker 3 (53:47):
You're not changing your dead Well, on.
Speaker 2 (53:50):
That note, note, thank you for joining us. I hope
you enjoyed the conversation.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
We both do some substance, a couple of laughs, and
we hope that you continue to like what you're hearing
from us, so don't forget to subscribe.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
Please.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
We love hearing your questions, so shoot anything that's on
your minds to us at ideas at brandashnew dot com.
Follow us on all of our social channels, especially LinkedIn
and Instagram, and join us next time brand New
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