NOT Another Cannes Recap…

This episode comes with a guarantee: this conversation is NOT the same recap of the Cannes Lions that you’ve probably read multiple times by now in your feeds. Joined by leading industry journalist Suzanne Vranica, who has long covered media, advertising, marketing and tech for The Wall Street Journal with a clarity few possess, Marisa, Steven and Suzanne get underneath the real business that happens -and happened this year - in Cannes. From the future of the big agency holding companies (the point of view might surprise you) to some vigorous debate on whether AI was talked about too much, or not enough to where the action really happens, grab your own glass of rosé and join us for this juicy final episode of this season.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi, and thanks for joining us on brand New from
the iHeart Podcast Network and Brand New Labs. I'm Marissa Thalberg.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
And I'm Steven Wolf Pineda. And wow, it's been a
whirlwind couple of weeks. I feel like I've been on
the road forever, Marissa. But we're now in the post
can glow so and you're looking fabulous as always.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
There is an afterglow from that, I would say there
is so interesting because I'm proud of us for just
not rushing to LinkedIn with a here are the five
things I learned summary. But at the same time, it
would be impossible to do this podcast and not reflect
on the single biggest global complication of people across all

(00:49):
the industries that we talk about. But yeah, a lot
of people have already lent their punditry to the world
on it, So hopefully we can be a little bit more.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
What can we add what would be interesting?

Speaker 1 (01:02):
I think we get to fill in the gaps and
I think we get to talk about it in a
much more conversational real way, And to me, that's really meaningful.
I'll say for me that when I, you know, was
on the plane going home and then like that weekend.
I was really trying to take the time to distill it,
not for writing a post, but for bringing it back

(01:22):
into my company.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Like, because you are an operator, you are in the
c suite, you have to bring back something tangible.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
Yeah, exactly. It wasn't for fun. That doesn't mean that
things that are for work can't be fun. I think
that's where we get a little confused, like it's okay
to enjoy yourself in the process of immersing yourself in
the most as I often say, concentrated possible way, because
it is completely entitled. When we everyone walked around complaining,

(01:50):
including me, about the heat and being tired because you know,
it's such a point of privilege to be an environment
like that, But if you're working it hard, then you're
tired because you just it's NonStop opportunity to learn to connect,
to communicate, to share your story, but also just figure
out new things. So for me, that's why it was

(02:13):
worth the trip. How about you, and.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
We discussed this last year when we had you know,
Phil Thomas on I feel that it has transcendent because
it's not just about creativity, which is certainly, you know,
kind of at the heart of it, but it really
has transcended to be the gathering for culture for you know,
surtainly technology because the technology is just you know, completely

(02:36):
dominated obviously you know, media, marketing, advertising. But I do
feel that it is the single most impactful week to
get business done. And you and I speak about this,
We spoke about this with Suzanne exactly. But the ability
to have all key decision makers just in one place
and because of the proximity, different than Cees, it's different

(02:57):
than Davos. It's just I feel like there is a
lot that is done and it will continue to be
the place where business gets done just because of the
convening factor.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
The convening factor's key.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
Okay, So as we said, now everyone's posted their can
Lions recaps, so what more is there to say. Well,
that's what we are going to focus on in this
final episode of our brand new season before we take
a little summer hiatus. The conversations and the observations that
you haven't read as much about the moments of truth

(03:27):
you only caught if you were paying close attention or
is dropping. And there's no one better to join us
in that endeavor than Suzanne Vernitza. Suzanne is the in
our opinion, the Wall Street Journal journalist for the advertising
marketing industries. She's had a long tenure on this beat
and through that she's covered the inner workings of Madison Avenue,

(03:50):
the big holding companies, and of course how all forms
of media have been disrupted by technology and data. And
a particular focus of her coverage has been the growing
domin eminance of tech giants such as Alphabet's, Google, Meta
Platforms and Amazon over the advertising market and frankly as
well as all over the coast set and can so

(04:12):
I'm sure we will go there. Also worth noting and
speaks to my CMO heart that Suzanne also helped launch
CMO Today, which is a web vertical started by the
journal in twenty fourteen that addresses the rapidly transforming marketing
businesses oh yes, and the role of marketing in the
c suite. And she's currently responsible for programming CMO network

(04:33):
events and conferences. So no one better to do our
version of a recap that everything else the recap than Suzanne.
So welcome and thank you for joining us on brand new.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
Welcome, Suzann's great to have you.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
We've threatened you with this good time for a while,
so thank you for finally making it happen with us.

Speaker 2 (04:54):
But the burning question, Suzanne, that everyone has, how the
hell do you really pronounce your last name? Everyone gets
it wrong, so set I.

Speaker 3 (05:05):
Think she got it right. Actually it's Bernitza.

Speaker 4 (05:08):
The industry usually calls me sus V just because it's
hard to pronounce my Yeah, Bernica is a big one,
or Veronica. But yes it is Bernitza. But as long
as you send your tips fast up my way, you
can call me whatever the hell you like.

Speaker 2 (05:24):
There you go, there you go.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Things all right, So let's get right into it. What
didn't get talked about enough but should have been talked
about more? In the Canlons this year?

Speaker 3 (05:38):
Everything wow and is always the same.

Speaker 4 (05:43):
Right we go to the south of France, we trial
to talk about like the big themes and we hit
on them right, yes, say I, But it's through rose
Len's colored glasses. So real conversations are really tough to
come by. But it's at the bar at night. It's
those quiet moments where the real worry or the real

(06:04):
threats are talked about. We always like to say, yeah,
we don't really talk about it. There's major business done
and can we all pretend like it's this boondoggle. Yes,
it's definitely a boondoggle is South of France, but you
can get more business done in that couple of days,
then you can get your whole year. Always yes, and
it is those conversations that are happening throughout the week

(06:25):
that are more quiet and aren't talked about it on
some crazy panel because we all have to have panels
to talk about how.

Speaker 3 (06:32):
The business is changing.

Speaker 4 (06:34):
It's the real conversations that are taking place between smaller
groups that are pushing the industry forward or saying here's
the real challenge that we all have to face. The
problem is there's always a few and I feel like
we're at sort of the prefaces of a massive transformation
in the business.

Speaker 3 (06:52):
Yes, you can all talk about AI, but you.

Speaker 4 (06:54):
Can also talk about what's going to happen with the
economy and how the new administration is definitely lighting a
fire under this business and there is huge implifications.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
Lots of this was very quietly. Handwringing was going on, people.

Speaker 4 (07:08):
Were worried about it didn't stop people from celebrating creativity
in the business. But people are not oblivious. They know
changes coming. There is real worry, there is real there's
some opportunity and people are excited about it. But with
change comes what's going to happen to the workforce, what's
going to happen to how people operate in this business?

Speaker 3 (07:30):
How do marketers stay in their jobs?

Speaker 4 (07:32):
I mean, we've been talking about that for twenty years, right,
we were going to get past the two year tenure,
three year tenure. So we manipulate how we measure it
so it looks better. I don't think the challenges have
been solved. I think there's just new ones that are
coming down the pike. And I think in Can, if
you're listening carefully, you're finding some answers and you are
finding people that you can talk to to figure out

(07:54):
what's the best way forward.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
So what in that listening carefully did you hear that
you could share?

Speaker 4 (08:00):
Well, I think one of the big themes. And we
run journal house during can and it's a beautiful respite,
but we tried to really have honest conversations. We had
the CEO of GAP talking about what's happening in the business. Yes,
he's had a massive marketing transformation. They're doing really well.
But I joked with him like, we're here to talk turkey,

(08:22):
and turkey for him meant what the hell are the
tariff's going to do to his business?

Speaker 2 (08:26):
Right?

Speaker 4 (08:27):
Like, that's a conversation that he needs to have a
CEO who actually shares with marketers how he's thinking about it, right,
because that has huge implications. And I think sometimes the
business doesn't do a good enough job of bringing in
CEOs to do the talking, and there's this big disconnect
between the business world and the marketing world, and that

(08:49):
I think is a fundamental problem that's affected this business
for way too long.

Speaker 3 (08:53):
And I think bringing people like that to can.

Speaker 4 (08:56):
Level sets the conversation so that marketers could understand, you
know what, CEOs are wildly worried about what's going to
happen with tariffs, and how does that really have major
implications for how.

Speaker 3 (09:07):
You go to market marketing wise?

Speaker 2 (09:08):
Right?

Speaker 4 (09:09):
How can the budgets be set when you don't even
know what you're going to charge for your products? You know,
how do you participate in upfront right now when you
don't know what your ad budget's going to look like
next week, never mind in the fourth quarter. So that
was like one topic that we definitely talked about at
journal house. There was lots of conversations, but again lots

(09:29):
of that conversation is happening around the bar where people
are trying to look for any evidence, like does anybody
have a clue what's going to happen next?

Speaker 3 (09:37):
Is there another shoe to drop?

Speaker 2 (09:43):
I love that you're bringing this up. And you know,
Mersey and I I think we approach just the craft
of marketing from this business lens. And you know, certainly
given the work that Mercy's doing, I'm sure she has
a point of view given the tariffs. But I just
came back after can I went to the Stanford Directors
conference and you know, you had three hundred plus or

(10:03):
minus public company board directors, and you know, the conversation
was such a stark contrast, and they actually had Read
Hastings there. They had kind of leaf for Rice, they
had John Donahoe, you know, ex Nike. So I think
this is such an important point that you're bringing up, Suzan,
because the level of conversation that it just felt so
tone deaf. I mean, one the geopolitical nature of where

(10:27):
we are not just tarists, but just think about what's
been happening in the Middle East, I mean the bombing
of you know what your on and it just felt
very disconnected from reality. And so when you kind of
see where this conversation has been going in the C
suite and everyone kind of complains that the marketers don't
have the seat at the table, do you think that

(10:47):
this either, you know, kind of helps or hurts the cause,
because this is the fundamental disconnect that I think a
lot of CEOs and CFOs they have that view towards
the marketing community.

Speaker 4 (10:59):
I think it hurts in some respect because I noticed
what happens a can when I ask somebody to come
on a stage, I'm pretty clear, right, you come to
the journal house or you come here, we're gonna have
a real conversation. Lots of times marketers are like, I'm
going to go down the block because guess what, this
person over here is going to not have a journalist
interview me.

Speaker 3 (11:16):
One of my friends will I've often.

Speaker 4 (11:18):
Said that to my CMO friends, like, if you want
to advance in your career, if you want to show
your CEO like, hey, I am about business, you need
to be able to stand up and answer the tough
questions and help the community, help the business understand like,
these are the things I'm worried about. It's not like
the cmos don't do that, but I think they get

(11:40):
afraid to be like I don't want to be on
the hot seat about this. Well, it's better to show
that you're capable of turking about tariffs, because they completely are.
But I think sometimes it's just an easier get to
be like I'm going to go and I'm going to
talk about my brand and women's sports, not to say
that's not a major, a major, important mission that this

(12:00):
business has been out.

Speaker 3 (12:01):
I love it. I think it's fantastic, But there is
a time and a place for everything, right, Like what's
to stop you.

Speaker 4 (12:08):
From saying, I'm a CMO that is actually figuring out
the plan for my company moving forward to navigate a
new administration who is throwing lots of different challenges our way,
whether it's from their new policies in terms of.

Speaker 3 (12:22):
DEI the economy to tariffs.

Speaker 4 (12:25):
I mean, I could keep going right, and I think
that just puts you in a different position if that's
part of your let's say, your brand story, because I
believe every CMO should have a story for themselves, and
I find sometimes those stories they take a lighter path,
and it's like, to advance in this world in terms
of your organization, you need to be tackling the harder subjects.

(12:45):
You do it internally, you should be doing it externally
because that helps build your brand as a CMO, if
that makes any sense.

Speaker 1 (12:51):
See, and this is where the branding of cmos and
the perceptions makes me personally crazy, because I totally agree
with you and really really struggle with the idea that
that is a trope or a cliche about how other
cmos are either showing up or being perceived as showing

(13:12):
up or not showing up, because most of the ones
I know are incredibly brilliant and smart and deeply focused
on business, and yet this narrative, it's kind of like
just we have been like the shoemaker's children with no shoes.
Some of the worst crimes of marketing have happened around
marketing brand versus performance, perfect example, and I was the

(13:33):
first year that I felt like, thank God, it wasn't
like everyone talking about them. Maybe we've finally gotten the
memo on that. But when you say CMO is not
talking about the business, I mean I'm in retail or
of course, I'm like, I don't think a day went
by where I didn't say the word tariff. Doesn't mean
I have the answers. It doesn't mean I'm going to

(13:53):
share something that may or may not be proprietary. We're
all savvy that way. But that's what's on my mind
is how are we going to protect value for our customers?
How am I going to storytell that in a way
that's credible. So it kind of bugs me that you feel,
as the one, as an observer of all this, that
that's missing because we're not doing ourselves any great service

(14:14):
if that's the case.

Speaker 4 (14:16):
I think the business advertising has always been covered like
a club. Everybody's in this club, and sometimes you have
to say to yourself. And I remember, as a young
reporter the holding companies when I covered them really like,
you know, step by step as I built my career.
They were a club and they loved being covered like
a club. And then all of a sudden they became
a big business and they were like, oh my god,

(14:37):
they're covering us like big business. Yeah, I'm going to
cover your earnings and I'm going to hold you accountable.
I think it's a little bit of that as well.
It's more just I often think about it like the lists, right, like,
here are the top marketers, and here really, like is
somebody doing some analysis on like, well, what's the stock
price of all those companies?

Speaker 2 (14:55):
You know you don't see a list for CFOs or
cts right right. We crave that recognition or.

Speaker 3 (15:00):
The ethiens, right like.

Speaker 4 (15:01):
I think that's an amazing organization that like ties the
awards to performance like that should be And it's happening
more and more now you'll see that because I think
cmos have recognized, Like when I first started covering marketing,
I realized pretty quickly the tenure was really that affected
the CMO suite was always because I felt that the
C suite basically they were the sacrificial lamp if the

(15:25):
company screwed it out right, it's easy to blame marketers, right,
and so you just fire a marketer because nobody wants
to fire a CEO. So I do think like the
business has sort of moved forward with that, but there's
still this sort of hearkens back to the old days
when we're all it's a club, and I think it's
definitely advanced, but I still think there's hints of that everywhere,
and you'll see that in can in particular. But when

(15:48):
you get these marketers one on one, like they go
toe to toe, and I'm like, use that in your brand, right,
Like get on a stage and talk the hard talk,
and some do it.

Speaker 2 (15:58):
But this isn't the place for that. I mean, I
think that's part of the whole issue, or is.

Speaker 1 (16:02):
It not in the conventional ways though I think it is,
And I think it's up to the marketers to pick
the places.

Speaker 4 (16:08):
Like you have to be in control of your own brand,
Like don't say, oh, my PR guy wants me to
do this because it's a safe bed, the safe bet,
Like she's totally capable of.

Speaker 3 (16:17):
Talking about tariffs. But I'm sure in your career you've had.

Speaker 4 (16:21):
Your PR people say to you, you know what, let's
do this interview, not this interview, right, because we want
to make sure we stay away. Like you're a very
an adult smart person. You know what not to say,
and if you don't, you shouldn't be in the job
in my opinion, Like you should be able to handle
those questions.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
Right, Okay, can I just run this by you. There
was a moment where I was going to a panel
I was talking to someone and they're like, oh, I
didn't prep for it, And I was like, I really
do try to be humble. So tell me if you
guys think this sounded arrogant or just actually smart. I
was like, if I have to prep for a panel,
I shouldn't be talking about it. It has to be
coming out of my own brain. Like I'm not saying

(16:57):
I don't want to have some warning maybe about what
the questions are to be thoughtful, but I absolutely resist
the idea of someone writing answers for me. Ye like
what if that?

Speaker 4 (17:07):
Well, that's why when we do pat I don't give
my questions to people.

Speaker 3 (17:10):
That's like, it's a conversation.

Speaker 4 (17:12):
I do have a prep cool if they want one,
because they don't know me or what's the topic, so
you have some guide.

Speaker 3 (17:18):
No one's playing a game of gotcha.

Speaker 4 (17:20):
Like I work for the Wall Street Journal, We're very
transparent about what we want from you, what we're going
to ask you. You're not going to get a list
of questions because it's supposed to be your brain, my
brain having a conversation that's insightful and thought provoking, and
you don't want to money that down.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
But yeah, no, I think this is a topic we.

Speaker 4 (17:37):
Could probably talk about, but I think we always give
can a bad rap.

Speaker 3 (17:41):
I do think conversations happen.

Speaker 4 (17:43):
I think there's just so many conversations, so they're happening,
you just don't hear about them because there's so much
other noise. So I don't want to be like it's
all negative, because it's not. It's more like, you know,
there's thousands of things being talked about at the same time.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Okay, so, so could we talk about that because this
is my other you know, kind of pet peeve. The
over programming and every single you know, place had a
panel and you would walk by and they were like
half two three quarters empty.

Speaker 3 (18:15):
It's so silly, I know.

Speaker 2 (18:16):
And so is this really just everyone talking to each
other and really trying to figure out like one thing
was you know, kind of too many panels and no
one really there, and then you talk about the quality
of them, I mean, and again we have to talk
about the elephant in the room being AI. I could
not believe the amount of bullshit of people talking out

(18:37):
of their butt about AI where they knew nothing about
the topic, and so everyone has an opinion, but there
was no substance.

Speaker 3 (18:44):
So your take, I think there's two things happening.

Speaker 4 (18:47):
So I think because it's the south of France and
it's expensive and it's got this it's a boondoggle. Companies
bend over back where it's like we'll have a panel
and we'll make some news, right like, And I've always
joked I'm like, oh my god, the news I know
of companies, I'm not kidding you. I can give you
and I won't even say them because we'd get people
in trouble. They would make up news like launched a
division just for cand anyway, then you follow up a

(19:10):
year later, it's not even the divisions, not even there.
They have all these journalists and they need to have
news because like we're sending half our executives there, and
so it's a little bit like if we all just
be honest and say we do a ton of business here,
whether it's networking, sourcing for me and learning happens organically there.
But I think what's happened is that's why, all of

(19:31):
a sudden, and let's be fair, the panels are now
they're about sales, and so if you're a marketer and
you're going to the panel, it's like, well, think about
the ones you went to Nine times out of ten
they're from a media company that's selling to you, and
so it's really how you want to spend your time, right,
And so I think it's up on to the user, oh,
the person that's attending, to make sure you look through

(19:52):
what's being talked about and find those ones, because there
are really good ones.

Speaker 3 (19:56):
I found some really interesting.

Speaker 4 (19:58):
Some of them are smaller or skip the panels and
just you know, have those moments where you connect with
somebody that you haven't connected with that you think is
an expert in a specific field. That happens every day
and can I just think the panels get all the
attention and that's not really where the real conversations.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
I have to jump in. I completely you know, listen,
I feel a responsibility as every executive should. On forget
the price of the plane ticket, just being out of
the office for a week, what's the ROI on the experience?
For me? I came back Sunday night, wrote a presentation
distilling my thoughts, shared it with my fellow executive team,

(20:35):
shared it with the marketing team a couple of days later.
I think it went over really well. Because I'm very
mindful of the fact that I'm there to work it. Now,
what that means is obviously when you've got thousands and
thousands of people variable depending upon your job and what
you do. I think that's the interesting like tension though,
is there's all this programming, as Stephen saying, you can't

(20:58):
get to a frit of it, but then there's all
this other stuff. Like for me, it is the density
of the opportunities that you said you get more done
in five days and you get in five months. I
mean I came back conversations that never would have happened
if I just reached out to someone on LinkedIn asked
for a zoom call. So I think that is in

(21:19):
some ways undervalued, and you just touched on it. We
should talk about that, the business getting done it CAN.
Why isn't that more of what we sort of appreciate
because it's back to the awards part versus the getting
business done. And last year Steve and I had Phil
Thomas on right after we did CAN and we were
talking about should more people be in the palais. The

(21:42):
first time I didn't go in the palais, I was
so embarrassed or so apologic. Now I'm like, I'm not embarrassed.
That is amazing and I had more time, but it's
not for the awards. I can look that up and
I did. By the way, I watched some of the
case studies. I've picked ones that to me were interesting
and inspiring on a business level. Creativity as a problem solver,

(22:04):
that's what I love. But for me, the value was
in what I could get done with the people who
were there.

Speaker 2 (22:11):
I know hardly anyone that actually went into the palais
to see the award ceremonies.

Speaker 3 (22:15):
Yeah, I agree. And then for your second part of
your question on AI.

Speaker 4 (22:19):
Yes, but we've been playing this AI game for a
couple of years now, right, Like, there's a bus coming
and everybody knows it's coming.

Speaker 3 (22:25):
But if you don't know how to get out of
the way of.

Speaker 4 (22:28):
The bus, you're going to kind of talk around the
bus until you get hit by it or you figure
out how to navigate around it. Right, And that's the
position everybody in this business is in. No one knows
the implication. Jet we all know this is a rewriting
of the business once again. Right, there was the Internet,
the rise of the iPhone. Now it's AI major transformational moments.

(22:49):
Now you've got people on every part of that spectrum, Stephen,
and you know where you're going to sit complete rewritten.
I'm a little bit further along I think'll be rewritten.
Do I think it's fundamentally going to change every part
of this business?

Speaker 3 (23:04):
Yes, it already has.

Speaker 4 (23:06):
Technology is like already up into this business in so
many ways. It's like it is so different from when
I first started confering it, it's insanity.

Speaker 1 (23:15):
It is an interesting progression.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
Well, I mean, just look who dominates the closette, right,
everyone on the beach was a tech company. I mean,
freaking Salesforce had a you know, installation on the beach. Right.

Speaker 3 (23:25):
So now the supermarkets are here, I know, I know, yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
Talk about that transition because again, you know the holding companies,
you know, the large agencies. There was an article recently,
you know, just this week about the state of you know,
the holding companies, right, and just how do you see
this little crystal ball as we take our hiatus thinking
about the back half of the year, and then I'd
love to also just get your perspective, you know again,
everyone's there and can you know, for me, it felt

(23:50):
somewhat like dancing on the Titanic with Rose. Of course,
what about all the folks that weren't in can that
you know, probably are going to be let go and
the fall. You know, as we kind of think about
the consolidation, like there is this back to the tone, depth,
back to kind of the disconnect between where the business
is and you know, kind of where it's going.

Speaker 4 (24:10):
Oh okay, so I'll start in three parts. I think
everybody wants to kill a holding company. Believe me, I've
covered them longer than anyone. You can't kill them. I've tried.

Speaker 3 (24:18):
Believe me. They're here today now.

Speaker 2 (24:20):
So they are cockroaches. Is that a positive thing?

Speaker 3 (24:23):
So let's thank for Sead Tobacco.

Speaker 1 (24:26):
Guys were being so sick coined.

Speaker 2 (24:28):
She coined it, we.

Speaker 3 (24:29):
Shot coined it, and I'm not being negative.

Speaker 4 (24:32):
Everybody has always said, like, why do these middleman exists?

Speaker 2 (24:36):
Right?

Speaker 3 (24:36):
They totally exist. They'll continue to exist.

Speaker 4 (24:39):
When I broke the IPG on the converger, people were like,
what does this mean? This has always been a race
to be bigger. Why did this happen? It happened because
there's a massive transformation in the business. Okay, really, why
it happened was because IPG was suffering because it didn't
have principle buying. This is going to help them, that's true.
Reason number three. Yes, these companies, there is a fight

(24:59):
to be the biggest. That's how it's been the entire career.
Everybody pretends that's not true, but it is. I want
to be the world's largest. That's what's going to happen.
Four is when you do a massive acquisition, or a
massive transformational acquisition, what can happen. You're going to see
these two companies come out of this deal looking very different.

(25:20):
Some of the other companies will try to go private
in order to catch up and to fix themselves, to
adjust the business model is in the site lines of
being a publicly traded company is very difficult to do.
So we know that AI is coming. This is a
model that's based on a service model. You've already seen
Poopless and others start to bring in a technology. Platform

(25:43):
model doesn't mean like their platform companies, let's get that straight.

Speaker 3 (25:47):
They are not.

Speaker 4 (25:48):
But this technology does one thing that is really going to.

Speaker 3 (25:54):
Force them to transform.

Speaker 4 (25:56):
It flies in the face of their business model, which
is charging for people and time. So if AI is
going to eliminate that. These companies have to figure out
what is the model going forward, how many people do
we now need, what kind of technology we do need,
and what's the balance, and then how do we get
paid for what we do. That's a transformational thing to accomplish.

(26:19):
If you've got one hundred thousand employees around the world,
you are a huge company and you're publicly traded because
you can talk to any of them, how do you
cut staff in Europe? How do you let go or
transform companies in the public domain without taking massive.

Speaker 3 (26:38):
Right downs to your business.

Speaker 4 (26:40):
So I think this is all of the stuff that's
happening throughout the business and everybody just likes to say
they're done. That's been for thirty fifty years now. Agencies
are done. The one thing that agencies have going for
them is the relationship that they have with clients.

Speaker 3 (26:54):
There is a real trust barrier there. Clients trust agencies.

Speaker 4 (26:58):
I will tell you that the true trust was broken
about ten years ago in the most significant way and
it changed this business forever. When the DOJ began to
investigate because of the rebate thing. Clients really felt burned
by their agencies, and the agencies have never been repaired,
that relationship is still not what it was, So they
are not in the same position that they've always been.

Speaker 2 (27:19):
And I will say, and now they talk about principal
trading and now it's you know they're being transparent about it, right.

Speaker 3 (27:24):
Well, some are transparent, some are not transparent.

Speaker 4 (27:27):
But I will tell you that is a thing where
I felt for the first time in my career that
they were more vulnerable because the trust was eroded.

Speaker 3 (27:36):
Now trust never.

Speaker 4 (27:37):
Really came back, but it's almost let as if who
do I trust more? Do I trust Google, Facebook and
Meta or do I trust the gut?

Speaker 3 (27:46):
And you and guys grew up in this business.

Speaker 4 (27:48):
You know the relationships we're talking godparents and friends.

Speaker 3 (27:51):
These go back decades.

Speaker 4 (27:53):
This is billions of dollars, right, whether it's through creative
or media. So money breach trust. I don't want a
machine doing all my things. I need to trust the
person on the other end. That's why they still have
physicians of power. Secondly, is and I was one of them,
like no, no, it's that's human nature. We trust people, right,

(28:16):
Is that wrong?

Speaker 2 (28:17):
That's the notion that I do want to challenge, But
continue your thought.

Speaker 4 (28:20):
You can challenge at all you want, but we are
humans first, right, right, So that's one. Number two is Okay,
when you think about Google and Facebook, we all wrote
about it. Okay, Google and Facebook, they're going to dist
intermediate Madison Avenue. That is, we all wrote it. Everybody
said it. I mean, your budgets all showed it. That's
what happened. Google and Facebook went down the path and

(28:41):
all of a sudden, I remember they were the friends.

Speaker 3 (28:43):
No, they were in front of me, and what happened.

Speaker 4 (28:45):
They looked under the hood and they said, let's look
at this business. There are good parts of this business
that have very high margin, and we're going to take
some of that business. But there is a lot of
low margin business and a lot of gutwork.

Speaker 3 (28:58):
That the agencies handle that.

Speaker 4 (29:00):
Google was very happy to be, like, we love these
guys because we can't do all that kind of work.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
But that's the previous generation. And that's why this is
a fundamental platform shift because this is about intelligence. And again,
what I don't think people grock the whole idea that
anything that can be automated will be and when you
break down a function to its actual tasks, and we
have not even seen the true advent of agents and

(29:26):
that is coming. And again I'm in debay every week, right.
I was at the Data Bricks summit, you know, the
week before can you know Snowflake? The week before that?
And the way that they show that you could just
spin up a marketing agent to do X, Y and Z.
I just think that if Marissa just using her as
an example, not knowing anything, but if she has a

(29:46):
fleet of agents that are going to be trained on
her brand, leveraging her first party data, and she can
actually build a lot of those capabilities in the house.
I agree with you. It's not going to disappear overnight.
I mean, people still have a well email, dresses and Yahoo.
But it's gonna happen.

Speaker 4 (30:02):
This idea that this all disappears, You're all out of
your minds. It's not Will this usher in a new
era of massive change?

Speaker 3 (30:11):
Yes? But who is it that's going to program?

Speaker 4 (30:14):
So who's the genius now that's going to make sure
that I can market? How do I make that bod
that I'm using shop like the Pepsi brand.

Speaker 3 (30:25):
That's branding.

Speaker 4 (30:27):
Whether you're marketing to a human or a bot, you're marketing,
and it's humans that are building the bots.

Speaker 3 (30:33):
It's humans that are going to be marketing to the bots.

Speaker 4 (30:36):
Now, does that mean Joe Schmoe at Agency XYZ or
Sheila at CMO of this maybe out of a job
because they're not skilled enough to do that work. Absolutely,
But that doesn't mean there's not new jobs that come
from that and that there's no marketing, whether a bot's
doing your buying or a human's doing your body.

Speaker 3 (30:57):
I also think there's still.

Speaker 4 (30:59):
Plenty of people that there's still penny of people that
go into retail stores. We always thought that was over
now has a trunk completely. Yes, so nothing ever goes away,
but it's just like there's a new thing. Do I
think the holding companies are going to be in for
a massive disruption? Yes, we all know it's coming. They

(31:20):
know it's coming. Are they all faking that they're gonna
make it?

Speaker 2 (31:23):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (31:23):
Of course you fake it to you make it until
you figure out what.

Speaker 4 (31:25):
You're gonna say. Right, Like, we're all in that game, right,
the world is in that game. So one company's got
this AI tool, another one's got that. Right now, they're
all in test and learn mode because and let me
be clear here, if anyone thinks that you can just
get the bought to do your ads.

Speaker 3 (31:41):
Good luck, because they're.

Speaker 4 (31:42):
Companies that are moving along this path and they spent
the last three years merce you and I were on
a panel talking about this with a few and some
people were here in the journey and others were far ahead.

Speaker 3 (31:53):
Everyone that's tackling this says, how do I do this?
It's years of eating these things.

Speaker 4 (32:01):
And what is being fed into these bots or these
agents so that if you want somebody to want a
bot to create something for you, you can't just be like,
oh good, can you just make me a chocolate bar
a picture of a chocolate bar.

Speaker 3 (32:13):
It doesn't work. And guess what they're now doing.

Speaker 4 (32:16):
They're going back ten years to get their brand books,
to get all the ants, and they're feeding these things
so that they can get more intelligent. But guess who's
feeding them people, and so they're going to get as intelligent.
But that's a whole lot of skill skit, like how
do I program the bots to do these kind of work?

(32:36):
We all always talk in absolutes in this business, Just
like when programmatic came in, Oh my god, every media
body is going to be out of his job.

Speaker 2 (32:42):
Right.

Speaker 4 (32:42):
I'm just gonna hand my check over to Google. I'm
gonna handle over my thing to whatever platform you decide,
and then they'll do all the body. The opportunity is
massive now, I do think for the creative side, it's
definitely scary days, But like, think about the opportunity that's
before everyone at this point, Right, we've talked about programmatic
for what fifteen years. Now you can target the hell

(33:03):
out of me. You know everything about me, You've got me,
you can target me. What haven't then been able to do?
They haven't been able to target the message to me,
So I'm still getting followed around by the shoes or
whatever the hell I just bought. But if you think
about the opportunity of what AI can ring to now
is like how do you actually target me? But then
the ads themselves can be tailored to me.

Speaker 2 (33:24):
They'll be denerative and done on the fly. And again
there's gonna be this fusion between you know, the sales
and marketing support. But I'm curious, you know, Mersey your review,
because again you're in the hot seat, You're the one
kind of seeing all this stuff. Where do you see
the puck going?

Speaker 1 (33:36):
Well, I mean one thing I will gently disagree with
with you on Steven, is this like, I don't think
we're helping things.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
Doesn't have to be gentle. It could be a hard gendle.

Speaker 3 (33:45):
I really be hard. He could take it. I can
take it.

Speaker 1 (33:48):
I mean, I just really don't feel it's fair to
use metaphors like dancing on the Titanic, because I actually
don't think that gives people very much credit and it's
way too buy. It's like saying either you completely get
it or you completely don't. I think most people are
in the middle, because who really gets it. I mean,
it's very very hard, it's new, it's changing every day,

(34:10):
and oh, by the way, if you're an operator's still
trying to like do the hard work of running a business.
So I think we have a little bit of an
empathy gap when we talk about this, like and the
fear mongering doesn't help. So you want to get people
to change, Scaring them is not the best way to
do it. You want to get people to change, help
them see how they can go on the journey. No

(34:31):
one has the answer yet. It's scary, it's no one
has the answer. But I think it's an unfair categorization
to say it definitely doesn't increase our chances of going
to can again. When you make it sound like it's
everyone just drinking rose and not being real, that was
not my experience at all. I had lots of very
real conversations with people. I met some interesting partners that

(34:51):
are on the cutting edge that might be in my
repertoire of solution partners or not, but at least I
made some interesting introductions. That's the truth is everyone's just
trying to figure it out. No one who's in this industry, well,
maybe no one is extreme. Most people are not head
in the sand. Equally true, most people don't exactly know

(35:12):
what to do right now.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
Yeah, And to be clear, both things can be true.
And again the assessment, because both of you know, my
whole DNA is we're trying to lead through learning right,
and I see the glasses half full. I'm a realist,
but I'm also an optimist. I think the reinvention is
happening right before our eyes. My concern is, is the
water getting hotter and hotter and the frog doesn't realize

(35:34):
that it's being boiled. That's more of the concern.

Speaker 1 (35:37):
I don't agree.

Speaker 4 (35:37):
If you look at what's happened in the last year,
you had Omnicom buy IPG, you had Mark Reed decide
that he's leading WPP.

Speaker 3 (35:46):
You've got publicist that's running.

Speaker 4 (35:48):
All the business on Madison Avenue and continues to buy
tech companies. There's been more activity in the last eighteen
months on Madison Avenue than there has been probably in
the last ten years. What does that tell you. There's
no frogs boiling. No, they're doing it. The problem is
you're doing it at the same time as continuing to
go down the model you're at while figuring out the future,

(36:09):
and you're not a tech company, and you're facing off
against the Metas of the world, who now have the
capabilities to do the other side of this business that
they didn't have the capabilities in terms of creative right,
they've owned the media side, on the buying side, and
the targeting side, and look, the holding company carved off

(36:30):
piece of that, whether it's principle or whatever you want
that they're doing.

Speaker 3 (36:34):
But now they're going full bore into the creative side
of this business. That's a challenge for them.

Speaker 4 (36:39):
But I bring it all back to people again because
how many marketers have said to me, I am nervous
to allow the black box to do all of this. Again,
the business that of advertising and marketing. We keep talking
about this and nothing gets done. The lack of transparency
that has enveloped throughout this business is a real problem

(37:03):
because what happens is marketers again, under that pressure to
hit the ninety day cycle, what did they do? You
need to go where you're going to get the best
ROI right, because you've got a CFO and the business
pressure is so intense for people and you're weighing that
with like do I go full bore in to metow
with all of my or whatever company they want to

(37:24):
pick when it is a black box. There's lots of
companies struggling. Now, that's why the agencies are there too.
They're like they don't want to put all their money
somewhere because again, the transparency is really important. Like think
about where the business is today, how much money you
spent on digital and yet every corporation's board of direction
signs off every year like the books are good, no fraud,

(37:45):
and yet we know us three no, how much of
digital advertising is still fraud.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
I think the macro message that I'm looking at and
when I talk about you know kind of the fraud
or you know, just like all the issues. I think
it's more about the and you nailed it right, This
is about the business model shift, and I think there's
a completely new business model with this platform shift that's
happening before our eyes. I found it really insightful that

(38:13):
most of the AI leaders were not actually here. There
may be a handful, I mean, you know, we start
to see writer there, but I think this whole conversation
is actually very kind of legacy in a way where
you know, it's a lot of the you know, certainly
big tech players obviously Meta and Google and micros out
there are going to have a role, but there is
just a whole host of new companies that aren't yet

(38:38):
in the ecosystem, but they're building things that will be
truly disruptive. And again, I think it's more about how
do we lean in and learn all those things.

Speaker 3 (38:48):
It will be there next year exactly.

Speaker 2 (38:51):
My point is that they're not there yet, they'll eventually
be there.

Speaker 4 (38:54):
You not think open AI perplexity. They're all going into
the ad business. Like people hated the ad business, where
they were anti advertising. Now they're the best advertiser in
the country, one of the best they didn't even want
to do advertising.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
My point is about the new tools that once you
see this new fabric, it is going to completely and
again you talked about the business model will shift the
ability for a marketer like Marissa to kind of leverage
all these things that are going to be incredible, And
I do think that it is going to shrink so
many different businesses. I mean, you said the news from
Andy Jassey, you know, the CEO of Amazon, basically signaling

(39:29):
that we're going to have fewer employees and we're going
to have obviously the whole idea of AI first, where
you'll have effectively to justify why do you need a
new headcount? And again when Wall Street kind of starts
to really get wind of this and you start to
see the productivity gains, I think the Street's going to
be like, why are you adding headcount? I think you're
just going to see a lot of companies start to shrink.

Speaker 4 (39:51):
I think that's already happening, but that happens all the
time in business anyway, Like Steven, we have to go
back to like, yes, it's profound, but so is social media,
so is digital.

Speaker 1 (40:03):
So all of it's been profound, And like in a way,
like if you look at the cost set, which is
the main thoroughfare of can as a litmus test of that.
Ten years ago it was like the traditional media companies.
Now it's the tense if you will, our Google and
other tech Adobe now had a marquee position in like

(40:25):
one of the main hotels. So in a couple of
years from now, it might be open AI or others.
But at the same time, guess what, there's still going
to be people like me going there to have those
meetings and making business decisions and figuring out how to
drive it. I think that's what we have to also
put some perspective on.

Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, I don't think anyone questions that I'm just talking
about more than the platform shift. I think it's going
to be bigger. I'm trying to gain be realistic about
what's happening and also optimistic about all the new things.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
Are hearing your optimism today.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
I'm totally optimistic realism.

Speaker 4 (41:01):
What we really need is, like we just hope that
the companies that are coming into this business. What happens
is we've seen the transformation time and time again, but
yet it still becomes iterative. The hope is that these
new companies, whether it's Open AI or Perplexity or the
one that we don't even know that's around the corner.
They come in with a new ad model, right, Like

(41:22):
think about CTV.

Speaker 3 (41:24):
New industry. We're gonna digitalize TV, and what are we doing.
We're running from the TV app.

Speaker 2 (41:28):
It's okay, it's a safe space.

Speaker 3 (41:30):
It's a good all right, But what are we doing?

Speaker 2 (41:32):
Right?

Speaker 4 (41:33):
We're running right, We're all paying subs and we're gonna
get into data with TV ads.

Speaker 3 (41:37):
And Netflix came out of the gate and every marketer
was salivating. What do we want for Netflix?

Speaker 4 (41:42):
We want integrations, we want new types of ad units.
What do we get pause ads? Ads that run during
the pause, Like that's the big innovation. Like this business,
as much as technology is upended, we are still fifteen second,
five second and third, you know, like where is the innovation?

Speaker 3 (42:00):
And that's what I can bring if they do it.

Speaker 4 (42:02):
But I find every time a new sector comes in,
they just take the old model, make it a little
tech and still basically a TV ad chop down in
a different form.

Speaker 2 (42:12):
Right when you have an agent Susan and that agent,
you know, Marisa's agent, has to market to your agent
I don't think it's going to be a fifteen second spot,
you know. I think that's where it's going to get.
Really want you're.

Speaker 4 (42:22):
Hopeful that's what it is, but you see it time
and time again. Right right, is open AI or perplexity
just going to redo the search model that Google had.

Speaker 2 (42:31):
Possible answer engine optimization.

Speaker 3 (42:33):
It's happening totally. So that's my point.

Speaker 2 (42:35):
So give us something positive, African. You know you're heading
into the fall. A lot of things are happening. Give
us something that you are actually positive about, you know,
something that you think is you know, under hyped.

Speaker 3 (42:45):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (42:45):
I think this business is way too good of a
job of hyping everything. Look, I mean we've been focused
on obviously, we've been doing a lot of the X
story about what's happening there, the FTC, investigating the ad business,
the bias.

Speaker 2 (42:57):
These are positive things.

Speaker 3 (42:58):
Well, that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (42:59):
That's what I'm saying, under reported baby people like Suzan exactly.

Speaker 4 (43:05):
So I do think like these are the big themes
that we're watching. Definitely, where the administration is going to
take tariffs and the economy. I think there are definitely
pockets of like if you want to talk about positive
like this is positive.

Speaker 3 (43:18):
There's a chance to reinvent the business. That's all positive
to me.

Speaker 4 (43:22):
You could argue like everybody's gonna get laid off, right,
Like that's everybody's fear, right, Yes, people are going to
lose their.

Speaker 3 (43:28):
Jobs and it's horrendous.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
It is.

Speaker 4 (43:30):
Well, guess what the guys that I grew up with
that were making like crazy amounts of money, being like
the top TV buyer exited the business and they were replaced.
It's evolution. We're in another evolution. The difference is that
we got some machines that are going to take the
place of some of the humans. You know, you talk
about Amazon like I mean, like look at their factories
and there their warehouses now.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
But I'm optimistic about that, right because we all remember
late nineties, you know, rise of the Internet, and there
were new jobs created, like a webmaster, Like what the
hell is a webmaster? But you're going to have new
roles like Marisa is going to need some type of
brand agent architect to create the voice and personality of
her agent. That is going to be a job totally.

Speaker 3 (44:12):
It's just like you hired somebody to be your voice
on social media.

Speaker 1 (44:14):
And I'm still trying to get that right, so I know,
well it changes right and changes all right? On that note,
can we play our speed round of cooler cringey can
audition with you before we bid you a fund au
revoir to use a little French?

Speaker 3 (44:33):
Sure?

Speaker 1 (44:40):
Okay, so cooler cringe? This is our speed round? Are
you ready?

Speaker 2 (44:44):
Yes? All right, she's always ready?

Speaker 1 (44:46):
First one cooler cringe can addition, TikTok creators being invited
to judge categories cool?

Speaker 4 (44:55):
How come because this business has not recognized that the
new creativity is coming out of creators.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
There you go, done and done, Steven core cringe.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
Seeing all of the retail media networks, you know, having
supermarkets peddling their ads that can I would.

Speaker 4 (45:13):
Say cringed at first because it is kind of hilarious,
like I did say and I'll put my I was like,
oh my god, can't jumped the shot. A couple of
years ago. By the way, I was there when Microsoft
was the first. I will tell you who room can.
It was basically Microsoft came in and Jim Stengle from
Procter and Gamble. After that, every marketer came and every
tech company came.

Speaker 3 (45:32):
I'm kidding.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
Don't blame Kim. By the way, Mary Kim.

Speaker 4 (45:36):
Is the reason Right sangle in here listening, and that's
why it transformed.

Speaker 3 (45:41):
So when that happened, that was the last transformation. Right
was sold.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
She named Jim Merris. I think we might need to
bring Jim on to defend himself.

Speaker 4 (45:49):
I remember, like I wrote a story about Proctor going
to cam and then it was every marketer, which was amazing,
right they should have been there.

Speaker 3 (45:57):
That was like weird creativity we could show.

Speaker 4 (46:00):
And that was when Proctor decided they were going to
like really embrace creativity.

Speaker 3 (46:03):
I think it's a great part of the history of
the business.

Speaker 4 (46:05):
Anyway, my point was I had said to somebody, I
was like, oh my god, it's like this things jump.

Speaker 3 (46:09):
The shorts we have like the supermarkets are here, right.

Speaker 4 (46:13):
Look, I think the retail media space has been really
exciting to watch talk about overhype, like, let's be fair,
there's going to be three of them that survive, it'll all.
And I do think they benefited from the death of
the cookie. And guess what, Cookie's not dead anymore. So
do we really need all the retail really and what
the privacy implications are that I think it's wild to
see what's happening, so I would say cringe, but I

(46:33):
do think it's kind of cool because.

Speaker 3 (46:35):
We did need a currency.

Speaker 4 (46:37):
The problem is it's your shopper data, and I think
you could argue if privacy people care or not. I
think people don't even realize the extent, like your shopper
card is now the currency. But I think the overhype
in that business is a little cringe worthy because, let's
be fair, good luck competing with Amazon and Walmart. Evolution
will take care of that, There'll be consolidation, but in
the meantime, lots of companies are getting extra revenue from it,

(46:59):
and everybody wants to be business.

Speaker 1 (47:01):
All I'll say is hopefully there's room for a little more.
All right, cooler cringe. Since we talked about the holding companies,
what do you think about the holding companies branding themselves
as platforms.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
Oh, cringe, that's a good one.

Speaker 3 (47:17):
That's a good yeah. I mean I think that's a
good one.

Speaker 4 (47:18):
I look, they have some platform but I think they've
been talking about being platforms for years. There more tech savvy,
and most of it is like them borrowing from their
tech reverence.

Speaker 3 (47:28):
The technology I think that's cringe too. They're not ten companies.

Speaker 4 (47:32):
They've hired some good people, but I think it's a
very hard get to actually compete on that scale.

Speaker 3 (47:37):
I think some of them are doing it better than others,
is what I'll say.

Speaker 2 (47:39):
All right. And then the last core cringe really trying
to see journalists at can because there's now like every
journalist is there. I mean you kind of like help
spearhead out of this, but there's so many. I mean
everything from you know, page six to axios and everything
in between. So just journalists I can. Is that cool
or cringe?

Speaker 3 (47:59):
The only journalistic can I know? So I'm the only
one that cares about.

Speaker 1 (48:04):
So tu shayu shit.

Speaker 4 (48:08):
No, No, I think it's actually good because it helps
the business elevate itself. So the more coverage the better
because there's so many players that can. That's what's lended
self to this. There should be tech companies. There were
the tech companies. For me, it's upsetting because I used
to have the run of the place and it was fantastic,
and now I share and people know I.

Speaker 3 (48:26):
Don't like to share.

Speaker 1 (48:28):
Hey, you're still the OG and that's why you're here
talking to us.

Speaker 3 (48:32):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
Thanks.

Speaker 1 (48:33):
This is great, Suzanne, thank you so much. There's so
much in this conversation, the good, the bad, the ugly,
all of it. It's real.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
This is going to work like a part two your
end right.

Speaker 1 (48:45):
Yeah, you're recurring guests. Consider that, Stephen.

Speaker 4 (48:48):
If you find you know, whenever you get a bot
ready to write these stories, let them have it done. You.

Speaker 3 (48:55):
Thanks a million, guys, I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (48:58):
Well, that was an ardible conversation with Zenn. But Marissa,
we have to shift gears and have the last part
of our pod, which is what's on your mind? And
so we have a question from Jason this episode. You
guys are brand experts. Well worsa more than me, but
you guys are brand experts. What's a brand or brand

(49:18):
move that you didn't see coming that has become a
big success. Hmmm, Marissa, what say you?

Speaker 1 (49:26):
Well, it's interesting because no one sees it all. I'm sorry,
no one gets it right all the time. So I
find that a really intriguing question to reflect on the
first thing that came to my mind I think is
the big right one. And it's funny because if you
go back a few episodes and listen to our episode
with Casson Mike Lazarro. They've gotten a lot of things

(49:49):
right in their investment. That's this isn't They put their
poker chips down and it.

Speaker 3 (49:53):
Was probably worth a lot of money.

Speaker 1 (49:55):
On Liquid Death the canned water brand, and I member
first seeing it at another big industry group that we've
both been a part of at least in the past,
called Patu Peter Fairgut, and I remember thinking, I don't
get it, like, what is it? It's not alcohol, it's water.
Why are you calling it liquid death? And I feel

(50:17):
like an idiot now because wow, and like now I
look at it and I see the brilliance of it,
and I give huge kudos to all the people who
had the vision, saw the audience, and it actually is
right in the sweet spot of things. I love because
it is a little reverent. It zigged when everyone else zagged,

(50:39):
and I just think it's so smart. But I have
to say I didn't get it right at the beginning,
so I'm being honest. How about you?

Speaker 2 (50:45):
You know, I'll give two answers. Okay, the unpopular answer,
which I will echo our friend Seth Mattwins, is actually
the Trump brand you know, kind of how that was
he called out as you know, the most you know,
kind of influential marketer in the world, or you know,

(51:06):
kind of CMO a brand. I just think that objectively,
just seeing the power of that brand, it's just mesmerizing.

Speaker 1 (51:15):
It.

Speaker 2 (51:15):
It defies gravity, and so it continues to morph into
different ways. So I'll leave that there, just have it hangout.
But I think my second obviously, I think I need
to think of the technology side. I think I'm really
surprised at all of the big kind of tech companies

(51:36):
that are kind of being challenged right now by these
upstart brands. And so I think it's not one specific brand.
I just I didn't see coming this quickly, the ability
for brands to kind of really disrupt, whether it's Open Ai,
whether it's Entropic with Claude, you know, whether it's Perplexity,
whether it's these you know, new up and coming brands

(51:57):
like eleven Labs or Hagen. I just find this brand
new crop of companies really trying to stake out their space,
and I think it's just the beginning. And so we
all thought that you know, search was done and established
and it never changed, and then twenty years later, now
it's all up, you know, in the air, and you're
starting to see the beginning of answer engine optimization or

(52:20):
you know, generative engine optimization. Like, who would have ever
thought that search would have been disrupted?

Speaker 1 (52:25):
But it is, and that just shows the game is
never over, that's right. And we talked a lot about
that with Suzanne Is, like it is about evolution. We
were debating a little bit about that. I mean, maybe
that's the inspirational story. Who would have thought there could
be new brands to rival Google?

Speaker 2 (52:42):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (52:42):
Let's put it back in the frame of brand that
you would trust out of nowhere with your most intimate
questions and for relationships. As we see, that's where the
usage is moving from twenty twenty five versus twenty twenty four.
So that's an intriguing and very on brand to Steven
and Serve radio.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
But but you zoom out and you just see, you know,
kind of the trajectory. Yeah, back in the day it
was Yahoo and you never thought Yahoo to be disrupted, right,
or you never thought, you know, BlackBerry would be disrupted
or Nokia. I mean, could you may I remember when
Nokia dominated the day, and so I just feel that
there's always an opportunity to disrupt. We're now just at
the beginning of that next cycle, so it's going to

(53:23):
be very interesting to see the new brands that are
going to be created in this AI era.

Speaker 1 (53:28):
Well, speaking of cycles, we're going to take a little
break from ours to refresh and reboot and have a
little bit of summertime. But we cannot wait to be
back with you shortly with more great guests, more great conversation,
and we're continuing to evolve as the world is, so
I hope you appreciate that. Thanks for staying on the
journey with us. Don't forget to hit subscribe so that

(53:51):
you don't miss our next episode when it's out, and
we'll be collecting your questions in the meantime, so have one,
don't forget to email it to us at ideas at
Brandashnew dot com

Speaker 2 (54:02):
And continue to follow us on all the social channels
you know, especially LinkedIn, and please join us in the
fall for the newest episode of Brand New season