October 9, 2025 • 47 mins
Marisa and Steven are back after a hiatus, with this kick-off episode that takes the themes of seasons 1-2 and brings them right into the current moment. In just the past few weeks, we’ve seen so many examples of brands who found themselves caught in moments of unexpected cultural explosion. From Cracker Barrel to AE to Jimmy Kimmel to Tylenol and more, each of these have demonstrated how much the requirements of leadership have changed. The hosts surface 3 words that they believe carry new resonance today for that challenge: vision, vulnerability, velocity. (Not your standard adjectives, are they)? Yet incredibly fitting for our tech-disrupted and politically complex world, a world where trust is so fragile. A world where brands, and leaders, have to root themselves more than in ever in: what do you really stand for?
Listen in as they catch up… and break it all down, with personal stories from the front lines paired with their unique macro industry insights.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome back. We are back for a new
season of brand new from the iHeart Podcast Network and
Brand New Labs.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I'm Marissa Thalberg and I'm Steven Wolf Beta.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Well, it's really hard to take a break from doing this,
but it's sometimes a little necessary.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
After Ken, after the summer.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Well, I didn't take a break from you.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
No, we didn't take a break from each other. We
took a little break from recording because we both have
not only our big day jobs, but they keep multiplying.
So fill everyone in on what you've been up to, Steven,
because as always, there's a lot.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Going on with you.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I think there's a lot going on with us, with
the industry, just with everyone.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Yes, that's true too.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
It's a really unique time. It's time to build, Like
you know where we are, you know my love for
technology and just the kind of moment.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
That we're in.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
It's so unique. Everyone has heard hyperbole and at this
time it's different, the AI era, the Air Revolution. But
the truth is it's really time to build. And with
some friends, I actually started a new company. Because of
course there's never enough. One wasn't enough.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
One wasn't enough, you needed multiples.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I'm surely it is an entrepreneur at Hard we continue
with Alpha all focus on AI growth and governance, but
now we start a new company called Symmetry and that
is focused on agentic marketing. So again lots to discuss. Obviously,
it's a really exciting time. But I keep on telling
folks we've kind of finished the first inning in this
AI revolution, kind of from the Chatshepyte moment of November
(01:40):
twenty two to basically this summer when Open Ai came
out with their first agent and now we're really entering
the second inning. And now this is going to be
about the aegentic era of AI and everything will become agentic.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
But we could talk about that later on.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Your career is going to be something that's really interesting
for us as we go, and we've thought about where
do we want to go in this next season of
Brand New, continuing to talk about how the disruptions of
technology and just the ever changing world are making careers
really different, and doing that from a place that we
always try to come from of love and passion for
(02:17):
what we do and wanting to help the next generation
be prepared for how to think about it and how
to succeed in this diverse world of be it brands, marketing, business, commerce, technology, entertainment, media,
all of it.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
That's what we love and that's what we're here for.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
And I think you and I, while our paths are
always different, they always have some connective tissue. And I
think one of the big connective threads is the fact
that we carve our own paths and we add different
things to our plate and it's never just one food
on the plate.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
It's not static and it's not singular.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
It's not static at all. But by the way, I
don't know if it's just the next generation, I feel
like it's like this generation, like every generation, I think
everyone is truly either struggling, excited, scared, Like it's this
really interesting cocktail of emotions because there's so much uncertainty.
Very true, and the only constant has changed. But I
(03:12):
feel like if there's anything that we can do, just
us as either on a podcast, just share our experiences,
but just really trying to get the message out that
now is the time to go on the offense. Now
is the time to build, Now's the time to take
calculated risks, because standing still is just not an option.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
You know, I've been thinking about that a lot too,
and maybe we just kind of get right into the
couple of hot topics you and I wanted to cover
today since it's.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Our reunion kickoff inaugural.
Speaker 5 (03:41):
Reunion podcast, coming back hot for a new season, kickoff
new season, and yet everything is just kind of continuous
in the world in our careers and hopefully with brand
new too.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
But I think that when you talk about you can't
stand still, one of the things as we consider what's
happened in our crazy world of business in the past
few months is we've seen some really interesting things play
out with brands and leaders leaderships where if people stand still,
they were kind of toast when something big happened. But conversely,
(04:16):
if they went too fast or not thoughtfully or weren't prepared,
they were kind of toasted that way too. So I
think the interesting thing for us to reflect on is
in this world in which we live, in these industries
in which we live, what is leadership really starting to
look like as we get toward the tail end of
twenty five and look forward to twenty twenty six.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
I think it's less about.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Command and control. You know, sometimes we've had guess where
we've talked about the four piece, the three pieces.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
I read this somewhere. I thought it was kind of interesting.
Three v's. Are you ready for this?
Speaker 4 (04:48):
Let's hear the vs here.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
The three v's vision, vulnerability, and velocity, which goes to
your speed point. I kind of like that was a
different take.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
What do you think I'd start with vulnerability. I think
that is something where I just think that people are
looking for Everyone kind of rolls their eyes when they
hear the authenticity term. But I think that vulnerability of
I might not have all the answers, but let me
be as transparent as possible and really trying to find
that the moment that we're in, there's so much change
(05:20):
and it's only going to accelerate. I think being vulnerable
that hey, we're doing the best that we can and
they're all these things that are happening, because again, you
just can't escape technology. But the whole idea of understanding
hybrid workforces not hybrid like working at home or working
in the office, No, that you're going to have now
kind of AI agents in the workforce, or you're going
(05:43):
to have different ways to kind of be doing the work,
and you're hearing all these companies saying we're an AI
first company, Like, how does that change what work looks like?
And I think a lot of people are moving fast,
but to your point, maybe they're moving too fast and
they are breaking some things, but being at least authentic, vulnerable,
and humble enough to say, hey, we don't have the
(06:03):
answers and we're trying to figure it out because the
honest answer is no one has a clue what is
happening right now, and just being honest about that, I
think is a step in the right direction.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
I've spent the last couple of years really reflecting on
these traits that were typically thought of as feminine leadership traits.
And forgive me if this is a repeated thought from
past episodes, but it's worth bringing back that women and men,
of course, both possess both feminine and masculine traits and
(06:34):
that pertains to leadership too. But for the longest time,
no surprise, the only traits we really valued in leadership
were masculine traits. And what we're seeing is the new
world is requiring different skills and paradigms for what good
leadership looks like, and traits like this include vulnerability, empathy, listening, adaptability, intuition, creativity.
(07:00):
Sounds pretty interesting, right, And it's really true that we
need these traits I think to be trusted. Trust Oh
my god, we can go off on that one for
a while, trusted with your associates, but then through the
lens of brands, I mean, more than ever, people just
don't know where to go for trust. Trust in government
(07:23):
is obviously very fractured. For a while, the CEO had
replaced the civic leaders as the trusted source. Guess what
trust in companies is down now too, So that's right,
Where do you go? And what does it take to
be the kind of leader that actually reverses that downward
trend and earns the trust both internally and externally. I'm
(07:44):
really interested in talking about that.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
First off, you know, I fully subscribe to that, and
I come from a very female dominated family. It was
very much of the matriarchy with you know, my very
opinionated Latina moms. You know, obviously my kind of role model.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
I wish I had known her.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
I know she would have loved you.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
But I just feel like I've been exposed to so
many incredible female leaders and I don't subscribe to that
idea of you know, this is the one way to lead,
that's right. And again I went to military school, right,
so I understand that type of leadership or you know,
in quotes. But I find it interesting what you're talking
about is so the right path, and that is the
(08:28):
way that business leaders that will succeed will embrace some
of those quote unquote feminine I even hate describing it
that way.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I do too.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
I think it's such a misnomer and it's such a
red herring to describe something as male versus female. I
find it more about emotional intelligence. But that's right, Park
that aside, that's a different pod.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
And I would like to go there.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
But I think it is interesting when we see who's
doing it well and who's not doing it well. Then
just these few weeks or a couple of months that
we've been on hiatus, there have been some pretty major examples.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
So let me finish this one thought. Because on the
business side, and you brought up you just mentioned government.
I find it fascinating that on the government side, the
leadership traits of government officials today, and again this is
not about partisanship, but just they're going in the opposite direction.
They're trying to embrace the Matista Strongman style of leadership,
(09:21):
which is the exact opposite of what you see companies
trying to do yes, because again, you can't get away
with that in a corporate environment, but for some reason
it seems to be okay in a government environment. So
that's a really interesting contrast that we're seeing with leadership
that is.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
But I'm wondering if it isn't also impacting a little
bit of the pendulum swing.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
On the progress i'd call it progress.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
We made just a few years ago in terms of
inclusion and having just a little bit more sensitivity to
that diverse perspectives forget diversity in the classic sense, diverse
perspectives and diverse ways leading. I don't know, it's interesting
right now.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
I don't subscribe to the bullshit that you cannot say
the word diverse, yeah anymore, that that became a dirty word.
I think that is something that I'm just not going
to subscribe to. You know how I feel about those
kind of things. But I just feel like we're in
such a moment that there is a real vacuum when
it comes to leadership. And back to your three vs.
Which I really like that framework the vulnerability is critical
(10:28):
and you had vulnerable like weak, It's just no, you're
being honest that Hey, there's all these unknowns. I mean,
we are literally seeing the next ginormous technology wave be
built right before our eyes brick by brick. This is
like nineteen ninety nine when the Internet is just starting.
But again, this is bigger than the Internet. So the
(10:49):
vulnerability to say, hey, I don't know where this is going,
but what is the plan? How do you over communicate
the velocity? It's just unprecedent because again it's going vertical.
And then what was the third Veig.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Vision vulnerability philosity?
Speaker 2 (11:03):
People have a lack of vision. There's so much kind
of fear out there, and this is where you really
need to paint a vision of what the future is
going to look like and how are you going to
lead and who's going to follow you? And I feel
like there's so few true leaders that are painting a
vision of what they want to see in the world.
And I think that comes back to the builders, because
(11:25):
there is certainly a vision coming out of Silicon Valley,
but I don't know if that's always the right vision MERSA.
And again you're in the real world where you're dealing
with customers that are maybe living paycheck to paycheck. They
have different needs, and again, the vision that you and
your leadership team are putting out for your company that
has a little bit of a closer connection to humanity
(11:45):
than some of the folks that are out in Silicon Valley.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Yeah, I'm really glad my job title has the word
customer in it because I like having that reminder of
accountability that is about people. You know, everything else is
in the world of commerce enablers to that. Really it's people,
human beings who we are trying to persuade, convince, change minds, excite.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Et cetera. Pick your favorite verb.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
And when you know it's funny you talk, vision in
your head immediately goes to the Silicon Valley view of it.
And I'm so brand first still that my head goes to, Yeah,
I walk into a company and the first thing I'm
looking for, what's the vision where this brand's going to
go in the marketplace? And you know, the truth is,
you need vision around all these things to successfully lead
(12:37):
business today. I think we're trying really hard to have
vision around all that, but it's certainly complicated.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Yeah, but by the way, if you are early in
your career, just think about how difficult it must be
because you probably are working at a place that maybe
your leadership team does not have vision and they're not
being vulnerable, and they really aren't moving with velocity. Got
to be concerning for folks that again just coming out
(13:04):
of college, just starting out, they're in their twenties, and
it's such a disruptive time. I really feel because like
we do a lot of stuff, We do a lot
of coaching, we do a lot of mentoring, Like we
talk to folks all the time that listen to the pod.
I really feel that that kind of next generation of
talent they're desperately in need for those three v's.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
We're going to play with those three v's a little
bit more because, look, you could call it a word salad,
but for me, it's interesting to think about what are
the choices word choices that we even anchor ourselves in
as a way of.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Thinking about what is important.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
And I like that that's just a little bit of
a different set of them, because you know what, think
about it, if you don't have those things, you're not
going to know how to seize opportunity when you see it.
And conversely, we've seen a whole bunch of brands walk
into unintended crisis in just the past few months. And
(13:58):
maybe that's the whole nature of a crisis, this is
you don't see it coming more often than not. But
from Cracker Barrel to our colleague over at American Eagle.
Of course, now he's a competitor of mine, as I'll
state with deferentially, but the whole Sydney Sweeney interpretation of
the you know good genes campaign, but even more broadly
(14:21):
than just those moments, what Target's been going through for
a while, Tesla, What do you do when you're a
darling of the automotive and technology worlds and suddenly you
can't be separated from the celebrity founder that you have.
I think about this, when any brand attaches itself or
is attached to a celebrity, what happens when the reputation
(14:42):
of that celebrity changes?
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Or should we go here, Steven, let's do it. What
happens when the President of the United States picks a
fight with you? Yep, we've seen that a lot.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Yeah, I feel like all these you know, there's a
common through line, right, which is what do you stand
for right and it comes down to certainly the principle
of the leaders that are in charge. And it's fine.
Like you might view American Eagle as a competitor, I
(15:11):
view it. It's such a vast landscape. But but yes
they are in retail, of course, But I just view
what that leadership team did, obviously led by you know,
a dear friend of ours, the CMO, that took as
they say, I think the technical term is huge cohonis.
The backlash was just so ridiculous, you know, in my perspective,
(15:32):
like can't you just have like a fun plan words
and not everything has to be politicized, And obviously it
drove a ton of business and you could look at
the results. And I know I've spoken about this online
like haters are going to hate, but you know, the
truth is they stuck to kind of their vision of
what they were trying to put out there, and they
caught a lot of heat for it. But you know,
(15:53):
that was like one example of following that path. You
can't control all the controllables, right, You can only control
what you can do, and I think they stood by
their guns on that. And then on the flip side,
you talk about all these other brands like Cracker Barrel,
and you know, some of the mistakes and I mean
those are just like unforced errors and again knowing your
customer all that kind of stuff. So I don't know,
it's just a very perilous time.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
I think that comes back to what you said, you
need to know who you are and what you stand for.
It's never mattered more than now, because things are going
to come at you in really unexpected ways, and you
have to be prepared for what you're going to do
if and when something doesn't land.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
The way you think.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
I mean, the one that I'm feeling sort of bittersweet
and a little emotional about is tail and All, simply
because I don't even know if you know this.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
That was my first job in advertising, No way, I
did not know this.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
That was my first big account back then. It was
Johnson and Johnson McNeil, Tailan All. Oh, well, those were
the days where you know, you was like an assistant
account executive and an account executive.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
It was a big deal, was or something.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
This was Sachi and Sachizing and it was like a
Markee account. And I'm still dear friends with some of
the people that grew up on that business with me.
I really learned a ton about advertising and marketing from
those days, because it was really strategic back then. But
I'll tell you one of the things that as you
(17:19):
became indoctrinated in that business, it became one of your
kind of fun side things. So you would tell people
the story because it became a classic Harvard Business School
case study of how and I bet there are a
lot of people listening that won't even know this reference anymore.
In the early nineteen eighties, there had been tampering of
(17:40):
Tailanol bottles on the shelf with cyanide poisoning, and it
was a profoundly devastating moment for the company, for the
brand Tailanol had to be pulled off the shelves. I mean,
absolutely devastating and the potential irreversible reputational damage. But they
(18:00):
handled it so well, and this certainly predated me. But
you learn like it became like the lore and almost
like this incredible point of pride that if you even
worked years later on tailand you talked about how well
that company navigated itself through a crisis, and now here
they are again with the President of the United States.
It's literally going on national television saying don't take Thailand all,
(18:23):
especially if you're pregnant.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
It's bad for you. Contrary frankly to most clinical evidence.
What do you do about that? And I think they've
frankly done.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
A really good job again because they stayed true to
what they know, what they believe, and they didn't get
down in the mud about it. We have a couple
of friends who are on that board, Stephen, and we
know people there. I mean, that had to be an
incredibly stressful leadership moment.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
But just think about.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
This if you zoom out, is any brand safe in
this day and age. It's even shocking to even say,
not just from our government, right, yeah, not just from
our president, but just from the quick backlash, the you know,
immediate you know kind of rage machine. Yes, where no
(19:11):
matter what you do, you're going to piss someone off.
And so I feel like there needs to be a
new playbook the way that brand are going to kind
of introduce a topic, you know, talk about a stuffing
like you can't even do comedy anymore, right because even
that'll be controversial. I mean, I know someone that may
have I know someone that may have dipped her toe
into some comedy stuff. I mean, well, would you have
(19:33):
ever imagined that Jimmy Kimmel would have been controversial in fairness?
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Perhaps yes, in the sense that I mean when we
partnered basically in media integration way back several months ago
with J. C.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Penny, it was just you.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Don't can about taking chances, in being brave and being See,
this is the thing. I think when you are actually
confident as a leader and as a brand, so as
a human, as a brand, when you you know who
you are, then you actually can be, as a human
a little vulnerable. I think when we're afraid, then we
don't want to have anyone see any flaws because we think,
(20:10):
oh my gosh, see I'm going to be found out.
When you're actually confident, you're willing to show that you're human,
and I think that makes you much more trusted and
much more likable. I think brand similarly, when you get
confident about where you're going and what you're doing, that's
when you actually can take some chances and be a
little bit playful. Again, depending upon the brand, the situation, etc.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
But your unique because one, you obviously have just this
incredible experience and track record, so you are confident because
of who you are. But you also have an incredible
leadership team. You are backed by a great CEO, and
he believes in you and he gives you the ability
to kind of do your magic. Not everyone is as
lucky to have that, and so there are all these
(20:53):
different dimensions. How can you take risks when maybe the
rest of the leadership team isn'tcomfortable with that, says they
want change, But we know, Marisa, most people don't.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
That's literally my tech doog.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Now I actually can say that is my tuch talk
since it went live. It is true all those variables matter.
But here's the other thing. It's like the old I
better carry an umbrella so it doesn't rain.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
You gotta be prepared.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
And what I meant to say about the comedy part
is this whole Pimmel moment erupted and it's nice to
see that. Maybe that's waning too, and we move on
to the next thing. But right as that's happening, we
are launching on our j C. Penny business campaign for
our really big deals with rising comedians, and of course
we vetted them, but you know, I had to be
(21:40):
really honest and say I can't tell you it's de
risk to the point of zero.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Because to your point, Steven.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
What is truly truly safe? I mean never getting out
of bed in the morning. I don't know, just by
being out there and trying and living there is some
level of risk. You have to be I think, honorable
and vote enough to be cognizant of what those risks
are and to try to do all you can to
be smart and be prepared.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
That to me is.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
The best way to then consciously do something a little
different and know your audience. So that's the thing. If
you're playing to an audience that represents a cross section
of America, then you're not trying to provoke. And if
you're a brand that's kind of an edgy coastal, that
is part of the vision and clarity of knowing who
(22:30):
you are and what you're doing and knowing who your
customer is.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
So no to bud Light, you know, and again the
very unfortunate, you know, kind of backlash that they experience.
I feel for all these brands, the people and the positions,
because again that was probably some mid level you know,
director person you know that was trying to do something
and when you try to speak to everyone it's really
(22:54):
difficult today because I think the whole idea of mass,
like those days are truly over and is going to
be personalized at scale and everyone's in their own bubble,
and so how do you really find the different groups
and the cohorts? Like how do you manage that? I
feel like those are the lessons. And then if you're
someone that's you know, kind of coming up in your career,
(23:15):
what appetite do you have to take a risk if
it's so easy for you to kind of just get
acts or get blamed, it's hard, right, Like, how do
you actually take those calculated risks in your career that
maybe you did when you were coming up and you
were leading digital at Estate Lauder or some of these
other places, Like you probably had a little bit of,
you know, more slack, right, you had more opportunity to
(23:37):
kind of fail forward in a way that maybe folks
don't have today.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
I know, don't assume at every point the risks were
different because of age, stage, and moment.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
And they are.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Risks because they're risky, so you have to be calculated
about them. I don't think I'll tell you something. The
visual metaphor I use about risk taking and it's very
I think visually this then I put this in presentations.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
This is what I picture is.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
I picture like a circus act, like a high wire
circus act. And I think when you ask people to
be creative to take risks in a company environment, I'm
not Maybe on a personal level this is true too.
People want to get up and they want to perform
in the circus, but no one really wants to think
(24:25):
that if they make a little misstep they're going to
fall to their death. This is quite a realistic metaphor,
and that's where you want to know that there's a
net underneath you. That net is your leadership, that net
is your team, and so that to me is the Also,
in a way, the mental calculus that you make with
(24:46):
risk taking is if I'm going to get up there
and try and if I happen to fall, is there
going to be a net?
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Now.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
The other thing is if you're the boss and you
have someone who keeps getting up there and falling, it's
fair to say maybe this person shouldn't be in this circle.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
That's okay too.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
I mean that's real life too, because it's business and
it's the real world and we all have to perform
in this metaphor I'm using, but quite literally, in business,
that's to me the compact though. I'll get up there
and if I'm good, if I'm really good, But every
once in a while I make a misstep. Am I
going to fall to my death? Or is there a
net underneath me? And in a world right now where
(25:25):
everything feels so fraught, it does, just does because we
don't know where the next arrow is going to be
slung from, or what's going to erupt or the rage
baiting as you said, that is where I think in
a way, it's about calculated risk. It's about risk, but
there's a safety net.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Well, you know, it's interesting there's this whole kind of
you know, meme going on throughout Wall Street talking about
labor markets, and it's that we are now stuck in
the low higher low fire cycle.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Yeah, you look at kind of like the jobs market
and just some of the data coming out that could
also very quickly change once you start to see again
more and more adoption of AI. Everyone's kind of going
through the trough of disillusionment, as Gartner calls it, that
oh the stuff, where's the ROI? Everyone's trying to pipe
up about that. But again I keep trying to remind folks,
today is the shittiest that AI will ever be. And
(26:19):
so again you kind of look at this that it's
going to continue to progress very quickly. But I feel
like we're in this holding pattern right now. Maybe you
want to kind of keep the folks that you have,
but you're probably not hiring as aggressively as you were maybe,
you know, twelve to eighteen months ago, and so we're
all being asked to do more with less.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Doesn't feel that way to me in the corporate world, now,
what do you see? I think it.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Still feels volatile, But maybe it's because our industries tend
to also be on the sort of in the Bell
curve of volatility, maybe a little on the higher end
of it.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Retail is definitely, you know, probably at the extreme.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
I didn't mean retail.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
I just meant the marketing meet like, but I don't know,
I don't know. It just seems like there's a lot
of movement always, or a lot of people looking to move.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
So that's interesting data, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
It's something that's really been discussed in the markets, you know.
I think there was an article in the f FT
over the weekend about it too, but just kind of
seeing where is the puck going. If there's anything as
we go into this new season, I really like just
ask all of our listeners please, you know, kind of
give us this feedback, right, because I think we're going
to go on the offense to really talk about how
(27:30):
do we see careers evolving? What can we see at
every level? Right, because it's not just entry level folks
or folks in the twenties and thirties, like even a
lot of our peers MRSA. Right, because you're starting to
see a lot of you know, folks very gently being
pushed out of a role or hey, you know what,
now I'm going after my portfolio strategy. You know, that's
kind of fractional type work. Again, I don't like that word,
(27:53):
but I feel like we are in this you know,
kind of liminal period where we're moving into a new
world of work, and if there's anything that we can
do is just have real talk about that. And I
feel like that's you know, kind of always core to
the reason why we started brand new.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Well, let's take a little break. When we come back.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
I want to circle back on one other part of
the intersection of trust brands and AI and then we'll
do cooler cringe with ourselves. How does that sound.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
That sounds awesome. Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
We'll be right back. Okay, we're back.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
We've been talking about a whole bunch of different things,
all this pent up conversation we've had from being away
from each other and away from Brand New for a
couple of months.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
I love these kind of episodes where it's just you
and I and we get you know what.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
I hope our listeners do too, because there's.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Just a lot to discuss in our world that we
think is important and interesting. But so I'm going to
bring it back to the truly the intersection A.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
We're going to talk about how Arsenal's top of the table.
Is that the key key topic right now?
Speaker 4 (28:56):
Sorry?
Speaker 2 (28:56):
That's that's for all my Arsenal fans out there.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
I see we did not make get through an episode
without at least football back on the table. Okay, See,
everything changes, nothing changes. That's one of my other propositions.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
I mean, by the way, it's only going to get
worse because like the new I did ask World Cup Ball.
Okay next year it's coming.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
I know what, I'm getting you for Christmas? Okay, Sartica.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
All right, So here's what I want to just bring up,
one more brand, one more story about trust. And it's
interesting because I saw these ads when I was just
in New York a week ago on the subway. David,
my husband, and I were talking about it. So across
in New York City a company called Friend spent I
think over a million dollars on platform posters, ads, and
(29:47):
subway cars, urban panels, a ton of them.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
And what Friend.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Is is an AI company that's basically you know, says
we'll always be with you, will always be listening to
be your friend. Here's the interesting thing is people kind
of really flipped out negative way, and people are defacing
the ads, calling it everything from surveillance capitalism, telling people
(30:16):
you don't have to go here, get real friends, like
as if it's this defining societal moment represented in this.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Ad, like you have a path to choose. We have
to talk about that. How are people really feeling about this.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Explosion of AI in their lives because we talk about it,
I think appropriately in a very bullish way and excited way,
because our jobs is to involves embracing change. But there
is some real public fear and skepticism that I think
this particular new player really really brought out. And I'm
(30:57):
very curious about your thoughts.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
All right, So for all of our listeners out there,
just the levels that friend is a new company, and
what they've done is they've actually created a device. So
it's an aipowered necklace, right that basically is always on
listening to your conversations. Because again, all of the multimodal
frontier models, they have all the different functionalities, whether it's audio, video,
(31:24):
you know, text image, and so this is actually having
a pendent around your neck and it listens and so
you could actually chat with it using obviously voice. So
this is not new. There's been many attempts at it.
I think what is different is the fact that they
just kind of completely misread the market and the way
they went about building their brand. Merisa, and again to
(31:48):
everyone in Silicon Valley, please you need to give a
shit about marketing, right, you need to care about your
brand because just because you can do something doesn't mean
that you know how to connect with And this is
always the issue that tech companies have because they talk
to themselves, they live in a bubble, and they don't
understand that the ability to understand the human nuance right
(32:12):
and kind of understanding how to read the room. That's
usually a misfire. And in this case, there's been this
kind of you know, building backlash against kind of these
synthetic characters. And by the way, consumers are talking out
of both sides of their mouths, because on the one hand,
consumers are absolutely relying on chat sheept claude. The number
(32:33):
one use case is using them for conversational empathetic relationships.
So that will continue, right, that will continue to be
a thing, and it's only going to accelerate. But there's
another company called character Ai, and someone that was a teenager,
you know, using character ai to kind of have a
conversation with a synthetic friend, actually committed suicide. And so
(32:57):
that's on the opposite extreme. There are no guardrails for
this technology. There's no regulation because again who needs regulation
in this country? And I just think the way they
went about doing this campaign was just so off. So again,
the technology will continue to evolve. Again, there's rumors that
open ai is actually working on a pendant as well,
some type of audio voice enabled device. But this does
(33:20):
give pause to the way that you're rolling it out
and messaging it.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Yep, good cautionary tale in that regard, the fundamentals still matter,
brand and human connection still matters, and how we tell
our story really really matters.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
But I'm curious your perspective on this, because on the
flip side, this is not going to stop. Right, Privacy
truly is viewed as dead because people care about convenience
over privacy. If they care so much about privacy, they
wouldn't have given all their data to all the social
media platforms right for the past twenty years. So as
there's going to be a better way to row out
(33:54):
a product like this, or there'll be different use cases
they'll learn from this kind of mistake. These will be
the new ways, the new UX and UI interfaces that
consumers are going to deal with AI. So when you
think about this, like, is this the kind of thing
where you're just like wow, like absolutely, we're never going
to experiment with something like this, Or do you take
this as oh, this is just kind of an outlier
(34:16):
because they did it wrong. But obviously this kind of
new way to engage with consumers, you know, with customers
like this is coming.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
How do you view it.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
I think people are voting with their reactions on where
they want some lines drawn. That's how I see it.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
It doesn't mean it's a referendum on AI is only
good or only bad, because of course we're using it.
We're using in our lives knowingly and of course sometimes
very much unknowingly, because it's being woven into the fabric
of technology.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
That's part of our daily lives.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
But I think that it is saying we still want
to have some con troll in how we lead our lives,
what conversations that we have with other people still have
privacy around them. I think there are real issues that
this has brought to the surface. And frankly, when you
see the other types of more marketing driven backlash moments
(35:18):
that have happened, and they've not been huge moments, but
like J Crew took a bunch of heat just very
recently for people calling them out on using images of
their own retro product using AI and not disclosing it.
Why does that bother people because it erodes trust. It's
(35:38):
everything we've been talking about. It says, I don't know
what to believe from you if you aren't even going
to represent your own productor your own people wearing the
product in actuality, what do I know what.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
To believe anymore?
Speaker 3 (35:52):
And that is where I think AI is freaking people out.
Is what I'm seeing real or not?
Speaker 1 (35:57):
That's scary.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
I think we want to embrace and delight in all
the creativity and possibilities and time efficiency and help that
it's giving us. But I think the cautionary tale is
what you said, so I was ready to end it
right there where you said it was right, cautionary tale
on just like Silgon Valley. Don't think that's just incidental.
(36:21):
Caring about the messaging, caring about the brand, thinking about
your strategy and what you're saying. But I think the
other lenses, through the customer or people, I should just say,
people are saying, hang on, we'll go faster with you,
but we're not ready for all of it yet.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
That's real.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Well, by the way, did you see the hottest actor
in Hollywood, Tilly Norwood? Have you heard of her?
Speaker 1 (36:43):
No?
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Hilly is an AI actor and Hollywood is freaking out.
I mean again, like this is not new news. Like
I really feel that Hollywood is going to be so
disrupted by AI. It's just it's coming and they're just
not prepared, right. And I live in la and I
see it, but everyone freaked out.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Big articles about that.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
Now, what's happening to the creator economy of La?
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Absolutely? And again the jobs. There's an article in the
New York Times over the weekend Wall Street Journal. But
this AI actor, again, this is going to be the
first of so many. And of course studios are going
to use it. Of course directors are going to use it.
But just to see the backlash, and so I think
it might just be a moment in time, just because
the wave is such a tsunami, you can't avoid it.
(37:30):
And so maybe this is just the early days that
you see the backlash. But a year from now, two
years from now, are we still going to see a backlash.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
Yes, there's always going to be backlash that I think
we know. The question is how will it change in
the next couple of years, because your point three years ago,
it was not in our public consciousness.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
The way it's very fast.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
I love you were saying earlier, and I meant to
say this about we were in the first inning and
how we're in the second inning. I think that's the
right way to look at it. But boy, are these
innings fast.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
They're a lot fatter.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
As game is when the innings are a lot faster
than there used to be.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Velocity velocity.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
All Right, you want to play a couple of cooler
cringe and we'll call it a return show.
Speaker 4 (38:12):
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Let's do it. This is fun because when we have
a guest, we just listen to what they say. But
I like always knowing what we think. It's cooler cringe,
and I think our listeners do too.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Listeners bring the questions for the next episode, but we'll
do the cooler cringe.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
With Okay, it sounds good, This is funny.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
I thought of this when I was reading someone's LinkedIn post.
We'll keep the person anonymous, and it was like a
pretty senior person but wrote something like.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
So this, I'm making this example up, but it's close
to protect the guilty.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
So I was at Starbucks and this barista taught me
this great lesson in leadership, and I was thinking, wow, okay,
so LinkedIn life lesson posts?
Speaker 1 (38:50):
Is this cool or cringe relatable or made up?
Speaker 2 (38:55):
It's so hard I'm going to go with cringe butt.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
Using LinkedIn does to kind of basically pat yourself on
the back. I mean, honestly, anyone that's listening, if you're
doing a LinkedIn post and it's just a picture of yourself,
you got to stop doing that. Please stop that, right,
I mean, if you're speaking in it's like a picture
of you on a panel with like five other people,
that's different, right.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Well, are you seeing that? Are you seeing people just
post pictures?
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Oh my god? People absolutely they post something like oh,
you know, I've read this good book, but a picture
of them. Oh my god, all the time, like read
the room. If you're going to do a leadership lesson,
like you know, so someone I think does it very
well is actually Miriam Benacara. She is authentic and she
talks about real messy She's a whole pod, you know,
(39:45):
plug for Miriam's pod, the messy parts, right, So she
talks about, hey I failed here or here was a
real lesson and it's like warts and all, but like
drop the whole pretentious Oh I was talking to the barista,
and like you really just using that as a way
to kind of put some content out there because you
want to be relevant and feed the algorithm. That's cringe.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Yeah, I think just for me.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
It would be a cringe too if it feels if
you realize underneath this sort of attempt at humility is
really some form of condescension. It's just going to keep
coming back to the same theme of trust and authenticity.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Like it's just the humble brag. Just if you want
to brag, brag, but don't do the humble brag.
Speaker 3 (40:22):
Yeah, all right, maybe we covered this. I'll hit you
with the next one. Then you can it's your turn.
Since we talked about friend like the you know AI device,
and then we also talked about and I've read this too,
one of the tough use cases of chat GPT is
companionship advice therapy.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
So is this cooler cringe AI as a friend?
Speaker 2 (40:47):
I think AI is a friend today without any guardrails, regulations,
anything like that that is cringed. But I feel the
understanding of for example, you think about the medical field,
and you think about having you know, kind of a
doctor assistant that actually is trained in everything around chemotherapy
(41:10):
and you know, kind of oncology and all the things,
and to basically have a conversation with that type of
chatbot that is going to make it easier as you
go through that path, that journey that's real, right, So
that is that is cool because you do need help
and you need that knowledge and the delivery of that
information can actually be very impactful. And so there are
(41:30):
really powerful use cases for using these technologies, and I
think companies are really starting to verticalize that those will
be successful examples. The downside that we don't know is
for you know, maybe not so much for your kids, Merca,
because they're a little bit older, but for my generation,
my kids which are seven and ten, they will grow
up and they will have synthetic friends, Like it's going
(41:53):
to be a thing, like every kind of kid will
see these characters out there, and if there are no
guardrails around that kind of stuff, that becomes very cringeworthy.
Speaker 3 (42:01):
Oh, I know, my daughters and their friends are already
using it as therapy. I mean, you hope that they're
sophisticated enough to distinguish. I'd a really interesting here's my
answer to it. By the way, a really interesting conversation
with someone about this very topic the other day, and
they said, the problem with AI as a friend is
(42:21):
the algorithms are changed, So no matter what you tell it,
it's going to be a supportive friend and validate you
even if you're saying And that's where the extreme example
of this person killed themselves is unfortunately, like the algorithms,
strange just to tell you you're always right.
Speaker 4 (42:36):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
Actually the question is is AI ready to be a
good friend in the ways that we need good friends,
which will also tell you when you're about to make
a bad choice or where there's a better way to go.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
That's so interesting to me.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Right, But by the way, everyone listening, please go watch
or rewatch the movie Her. Yeah, I haven't seen it.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Yes, that was twenty that was ahead of its.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Time, okay, Mike Jones director, and it just predicted the
whole idea of having a relationship with an AI and
just to see it kind of unfold. Again, today's the
shittiest it'll ever be. It's only going to get better.
So like again, let's have this conversation twelve to eighteen
months from now. I think it'll be.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
Very different, Neil, all right, I took the first couple.
You how about you wrap us with one more?
Speaker 2 (43:24):
All right, here you go, here we go, core cringe more. Okay,
executives using AI headshots.
Speaker 3 (43:32):
Well, my family will tell you it's cringe because several
months ago I thought it would be fun to play
around with it.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
I saw some people doing it.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
I thought they looked kind of cool, and I got
a resounding.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Oh hell no, these are terrible. They don't.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
So I'm I guess we're in a cringey questioning mood.
I'm going to go straight cringe down the three today.
Speaker 4 (43:56):
I'm going to say cool.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
I'm going to say cool, like you actually can use it,
and again it could be done. You use you know,
actual photos and the technology. Again, it's only getting better
and there's so many folks that actually use it. And
you know, fun fact, if you look at my headshot
on LinkedIn, that is an AI headshot.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Now I have to go check it out.
Speaker 4 (44:18):
No, you gotta check it out, all right, all right?
Speaker 2 (44:20):
And then and then last one, oh one more oka,
last one. Okay, candidates admitting they used AI to prep
for their interview Q and a cool cringe.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Oh okay.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Can I tell you something this happened to me recently.
I was interviewing someone and it was a job that
absolutely I mean, like most jobs I suppose where I'd
want to know the person was at least conversant and
comfortable with using AI tools for their work. But this
candidate was particularly it was almost like it was off putting.
(44:56):
I'm going to be honest when she was like, you know,
I prepped for this interview and all my questions came
from AI, and maybe it was just being that direct
about it. Basically what she was saying was I couldn't
come up with original thoughts to ask you, so I
just had to have AI do the work for me.
And listen, is there a candidate that isn't using AI
(45:16):
for interview prep? I would think not, and I would
frankly be surprised, Like I tell my own friends, daughters, whomever, like,
of course, it's so easy to get prepared now, for
there's so much knowledge at our fingertips, even more than
just Google gives us. But I think you have to
be very careful about how you talk about it. I
(45:37):
found that, I'll tell you, the way that came across
was a little uncomfortable. Now, maybe that was just me,
and I'm not saying it's I would universally call this
a cringe.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
I wouldn't.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
I think the cool is doing the homework. The cringe
is not knowing how to use it as a guide
versus a total crutch.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
Interesting, it depends on how you use it. So I
think it's cool if you are making yourself smarter, because again,
you now have super intelligence in your pocket, and there's
no reason why you should not be using these tools
to get smarter, to learn to get better. But again
you have to think, and I think the fear that
I have just like all these things, like when Google
first came out, like people are like, oh, you're going
(46:18):
to be dumb because you're not going to you know,
know anything, or like when smartphones came out, you're not
going to remember a phone number, Like well, some information
maybe you don't need to know, but you need to
know how to think, and how can you think on
your feet when you don't have access to these tools.
So using these things to prepare to get smarter, to
understand the industry, competitive landscape, like all those things, even
(46:39):
to help you ask smarter questions. But you do need
to know how to think, and you don't want to
end up like Wally right, Like remember the end of
the movie, everyone's like lazy and just you know, out
of shape, and these things will make you atrophy.
Speaker 4 (46:54):
And so all of us have to stay sharp.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
That's a great way to end.
Speaker 3 (46:58):
And you know what, Normally we'd go to a question
from our audience on what's on your mind. Since we've
taken a little break, we want to make sure we
get a fresh pipeline of them. So please tell us
what's on your mind? What do you want us talking about?
Speaker 1 (47:12):
What questions do you have for us to answer?
Speaker 3 (47:14):
By emailing us at ideas at brand dashnew dot com.
You can also just drop a comment into our social
channels and send us a DM and we get them
there too. But that's all for now. Thanks for coming back.
We're glad to be back and we hope to see
you again next time. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
Join us next time for brand New
Hello, and welcome back. We are back for a new
season of brand new from the iHeart Podcast Network and
Brand New Labs.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I'm Marissa Thalberg and I'm Steven Wolf Beta.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Well, it's really hard to take a break from doing this,
but it's sometimes a little necessary.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
After Ken, after the summer.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Well, I didn't take a break from you.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
No, we didn't take a break from each other. We
took a little break from recording because we both have
not only our big day jobs, but they keep multiplying.
So fill everyone in on what you've been up to, Steven,
because as always, there's a lot.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Going on with you.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I think there's a lot going on with us, with
the industry, just with everyone.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Yes, that's true too.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
It's a really unique time. It's time to build, Like
you know where we are, you know my love for
technology and just the kind of moment.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
That we're in.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
It's so unique. Everyone has heard hyperbole and at this
time it's different, the AI era, the Air Revolution. But
the truth is it's really time to build. And with
some friends, I actually started a new company. Because of
course there's never enough. One wasn't enough.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
One wasn't enough, you needed multiples.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I'm surely it is an entrepreneur at Hard we continue
with Alpha all focus on AI growth and governance, but
now we start a new company called Symmetry and that
is focused on agentic marketing. So again lots to discuss. Obviously,
it's a really exciting time. But I keep on telling
folks we've kind of finished the first inning in this
AI revolution, kind of from the Chatshepyte moment of November
(01:40):
twenty two to basically this summer when Open Ai came
out with their first agent and now we're really entering
the second inning. And now this is going to be
about the aegentic era of AI and everything will become agentic.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
But we could talk about that later on.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Your career is going to be something that's really interesting
for us as we go, and we've thought about where
do we want to go in this next season of
Brand New, continuing to talk about how the disruptions of
technology and just the ever changing world are making careers
really different, and doing that from a place that we
always try to come from of love and passion for
(02:17):
what we do and wanting to help the next generation
be prepared for how to think about it and how
to succeed in this diverse world of be it brands, marketing, business, commerce, technology, entertainment, media,
all of it.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
That's what we love and that's what we're here for.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
And I think you and I, while our paths are
always different, they always have some connective tissue. And I
think one of the big connective threads is the fact
that we carve our own paths and we add different
things to our plate and it's never just one food
on the plate.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
It's not static and it's not singular.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
It's not static at all. But by the way, I
don't know if it's just the next generation, I feel
like it's like this generation, like every generation, I think
everyone is truly either struggling, excited, scared, Like it's this
really interesting cocktail of emotions because there's so much uncertainty.
Very true, and the only constant has changed. But I
(03:12):
feel like if there's anything that we can do, just
us as either on a podcast, just share our experiences,
but just really trying to get the message out that
now is the time to go on the offense. Now
is the time to build, Now's the time to take
calculated risks, because standing still is just not an option.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
You know, I've been thinking about that a lot too,
and maybe we just kind of get right into the
couple of hot topics you and I wanted to cover
today since it's.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Our reunion kickoff inaugural.
Speaker 5 (03:41):
Reunion podcast, coming back hot for a new season, kickoff
new season, and yet everything is just kind of continuous
in the world in our careers and hopefully with brand
new too.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
But I think that when you talk about you can't
stand still, one of the things as we consider what's
happened in our crazy world of business in the past
few months is we've seen some really interesting things play
out with brands and leaders leaderships where if people stand still,
they were kind of toast when something big happened. But conversely,
(04:16):
if they went too fast or not thoughtfully or weren't prepared,
they were kind of toasted that way too. So I
think the interesting thing for us to reflect on is
in this world in which we live, in these industries
in which we live, what is leadership really starting to
look like as we get toward the tail end of
twenty five and look forward to twenty twenty six.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
I think it's less about.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Command and control. You know, sometimes we've had guess where
we've talked about the four piece, the three pieces.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
I read this somewhere. I thought it was kind of interesting.
Three v's. Are you ready for this?
Speaker 4 (04:48):
Let's hear the vs here.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
The three v's vision, vulnerability, and velocity, which goes to
your speed point. I kind of like that was a
different take.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
What do you think I'd start with vulnerability. I think
that is something where I just think that people are
looking for Everyone kind of rolls their eyes when they
hear the authenticity term. But I think that vulnerability of
I might not have all the answers, but let me
be as transparent as possible and really trying to find
that the moment that we're in, there's so much change
(05:20):
and it's only going to accelerate. I think being vulnerable
that hey, we're doing the best that we can and
they're all these things that are happening, because again, you
just can't escape technology. But the whole idea of understanding
hybrid workforces not hybrid like working at home or working
in the office, No, that you're going to have now
kind of AI agents in the workforce, or you're going
(05:43):
to have different ways to kind of be doing the work,
and you're hearing all these companies saying we're an AI
first company, Like, how does that change what work looks like?
And I think a lot of people are moving fast,
but to your point, maybe they're moving too fast and
they are breaking some things, but being at least authentic, vulnerable,
and humble enough to say, hey, we don't have the
(06:03):
answers and we're trying to figure it out because the
honest answer is no one has a clue what is
happening right now, and just being honest about that, I
think is a step in the right direction.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
I've spent the last couple of years really reflecting on
these traits that were typically thought of as feminine leadership traits.
And forgive me if this is a repeated thought from
past episodes, but it's worth bringing back that women and men,
of course, both possess both feminine and masculine traits and
(06:34):
that pertains to leadership too. But for the longest time,
no surprise, the only traits we really valued in leadership
were masculine traits. And what we're seeing is the new
world is requiring different skills and paradigms for what good
leadership looks like, and traits like this include vulnerability, empathy, listening, adaptability, intuition, creativity.
(07:00):
Sounds pretty interesting, right, And it's really true that we
need these traits I think to be trusted. Trust Oh
my god, we can go off on that one for
a while, trusted with your associates, but then through the
lens of brands, I mean, more than ever, people just
don't know where to go for trust. Trust in government
(07:23):
is obviously very fractured. For a while, the CEO had
replaced the civic leaders as the trusted source. Guess what
trust in companies is down now too, So that's right,
Where do you go? And what does it take to
be the kind of leader that actually reverses that downward
trend and earns the trust both internally and externally. I'm
(07:44):
really interested in talking about that.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
First off, you know, I fully subscribe to that, and
I come from a very female dominated family. It was
very much of the matriarchy with you know, my very
opinionated Latina moms. You know, obviously my kind of role model.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
I wish I had known her.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
I know she would have loved you.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
But I just feel like I've been exposed to so
many incredible female leaders and I don't subscribe to that
idea of you know, this is the one way to lead,
that's right. And again I went to military school, right,
so I understand that type of leadership or you know,
in quotes. But I find it interesting what you're talking
about is so the right path, and that is the
(08:28):
way that business leaders that will succeed will embrace some
of those quote unquote feminine I even hate describing it
that way.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I do too.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
I think it's such a misnomer and it's such a
red herring to describe something as male versus female. I
find it more about emotional intelligence. But that's right, Park
that aside, that's a different pod.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
And I would like to go there.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
But I think it is interesting when we see who's
doing it well and who's not doing it well. Then
just these few weeks or a couple of months that
we've been on hiatus, there have been some pretty major examples.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
So let me finish this one thought. Because on the
business side, and you brought up you just mentioned government.
I find it fascinating that on the government side, the
leadership traits of government officials today, and again this is
not about partisanship, but just they're going in the opposite direction.
They're trying to embrace the Matista Strongman style of leadership,
(09:21):
which is the exact opposite of what you see companies
trying to do yes, because again, you can't get away
with that in a corporate environment, but for some reason
it seems to be okay in a government environment. So
that's a really interesting contrast that we're seeing with leadership
that is.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
But I'm wondering if it isn't also impacting a little
bit of the pendulum swing.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
On the progress i'd call it progress.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
We made just a few years ago in terms of
inclusion and having just a little bit more sensitivity to
that diverse perspectives forget diversity in the classic sense, diverse
perspectives and diverse ways leading. I don't know, it's interesting
right now.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
I don't subscribe to the bullshit that you cannot say
the word diverse, yeah anymore, that that became a dirty word.
I think that is something that I'm just not going
to subscribe to. You know how I feel about those
kind of things. But I just feel like we're in
such a moment that there is a real vacuum when
it comes to leadership. And back to your three vs.
Which I really like that framework the vulnerability is critical
(10:28):
and you had vulnerable like weak, It's just no, you're
being honest that Hey, there's all these unknowns. I mean,
we are literally seeing the next ginormous technology wave be
built right before our eyes brick by brick. This is
like nineteen ninety nine when the Internet is just starting.
But again, this is bigger than the Internet. So the
(10:49):
vulnerability to say, hey, I don't know where this is going,
but what is the plan? How do you over communicate
the velocity? It's just unprecedent because again it's going vertical.
And then what was the third Veig.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Vision vulnerability philosity?
Speaker 2 (11:03):
People have a lack of vision. There's so much kind
of fear out there, and this is where you really
need to paint a vision of what the future is
going to look like and how are you going to
lead and who's going to follow you? And I feel
like there's so few true leaders that are painting a
vision of what they want to see in the world.
And I think that comes back to the builders, because
(11:25):
there is certainly a vision coming out of Silicon Valley,
but I don't know if that's always the right vision MERSA.
And again you're in the real world where you're dealing
with customers that are maybe living paycheck to paycheck. They
have different needs, and again, the vision that you and
your leadership team are putting out for your company that
has a little bit of a closer connection to humanity
(11:45):
than some of the folks that are out in Silicon Valley.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Yeah, I'm really glad my job title has the word
customer in it because I like having that reminder of
accountability that is about people. You know, everything else is
in the world of commerce enablers to that. Really it's people,
human beings who we are trying to persuade, convince, change minds, excite.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Et cetera. Pick your favorite verb.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
And when you know it's funny you talk, vision in
your head immediately goes to the Silicon Valley view of it.
And I'm so brand first still that my head goes to, Yeah,
I walk into a company and the first thing I'm
looking for, what's the vision where this brand's going to
go in the marketplace? And you know, the truth is,
you need vision around all these things to successfully lead
(12:37):
business today. I think we're trying really hard to have
vision around all that, but it's certainly complicated.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Yeah, but by the way, if you are early in
your career, just think about how difficult it must be
because you probably are working at a place that maybe
your leadership team does not have vision and they're not
being vulnerable, and they really aren't moving with velocity. Got
to be concerning for folks that again just coming out
(13:04):
of college, just starting out, they're in their twenties, and
it's such a disruptive time. I really feel because like
we do a lot of stuff, We do a lot
of coaching, we do a lot of mentoring, Like we
talk to folks all the time that listen to the pod.
I really feel that that kind of next generation of
talent they're desperately in need for those three v's.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
We're going to play with those three v's a little
bit more because, look, you could call it a word salad,
but for me, it's interesting to think about what are
the choices word choices that we even anchor ourselves in
as a way of.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Thinking about what is important.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
And I like that that's just a little bit of
a different set of them, because you know what, think
about it, if you don't have those things, you're not
going to know how to seize opportunity when you see it.
And conversely, we've seen a whole bunch of brands walk
into unintended crisis in just the past few months. And
(13:58):
maybe that's the whole nature of a crisis, this is
you don't see it coming more often than not. But
from Cracker Barrel to our colleague over at American Eagle.
Of course, now he's a competitor of mine, as I'll
state with deferentially, but the whole Sydney Sweeney interpretation of
the you know good genes campaign, but even more broadly
(14:21):
than just those moments, what Target's been going through for
a while, Tesla, What do you do when you're a
darling of the automotive and technology worlds and suddenly you
can't be separated from the celebrity founder that you have.
I think about this, when any brand attaches itself or
is attached to a celebrity, what happens when the reputation
(14:42):
of that celebrity changes?
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Or should we go here, Steven, let's do it. What
happens when the President of the United States picks a
fight with you? Yep, we've seen that a lot.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Yeah, I feel like all these you know, there's a
common through line, right, which is what do you stand
for right and it comes down to certainly the principle
of the leaders that are in charge. And it's fine.
Like you might view American Eagle as a competitor, I
(15:11):
view it. It's such a vast landscape. But but yes
they are in retail, of course, But I just view
what that leadership team did, obviously led by you know,
a dear friend of ours, the CMO, that took as
they say, I think the technical term is huge cohonis.
The backlash was just so ridiculous, you know, in my perspective,
(15:32):
like can't you just have like a fun plan words
and not everything has to be politicized, And obviously it
drove a ton of business and you could look at
the results. And I know I've spoken about this online
like haters are going to hate, but you know, the
truth is they stuck to kind of their vision of
what they were trying to put out there, and they
caught a lot of heat for it. But you know,
(15:53):
that was like one example of following that path. You
can't control all the controllables, right, You can only control
what you can do, and I think they stood by
their guns on that. And then on the flip side,
you talk about all these other brands like Cracker Barrel,
and you know, some of the mistakes and I mean
those are just like unforced errors and again knowing your
customer all that kind of stuff. So I don't know,
it's just a very perilous time.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
I think that comes back to what you said, you
need to know who you are and what you stand for.
It's never mattered more than now, because things are going
to come at you in really unexpected ways, and you
have to be prepared for what you're going to do
if and when something doesn't land.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
The way you think.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
I mean, the one that I'm feeling sort of bittersweet
and a little emotional about is tail and All, simply
because I don't even know if you know this.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
That was my first job in advertising, No way, I
did not know this.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
That was my first big account back then. It was
Johnson and Johnson McNeil, Tailan All. Oh, well, those were
the days where you know, you was like an assistant
account executive and an account executive.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
It was a big deal, was or something.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
This was Sachi and Sachizing and it was like a
Markee account. And I'm still dear friends with some of
the people that grew up on that business with me.
I really learned a ton about advertising and marketing from
those days, because it was really strategic back then. But
I'll tell you one of the things that as you
(17:19):
became indoctrinated in that business, it became one of your
kind of fun side things. So you would tell people
the story because it became a classic Harvard Business School
case study of how and I bet there are a
lot of people listening that won't even know this reference anymore.
In the early nineteen eighties, there had been tampering of
(17:40):
Tailanol bottles on the shelf with cyanide poisoning, and it
was a profoundly devastating moment for the company, for the
brand Tailanol had to be pulled off the shelves. I mean,
absolutely devastating and the potential irreversible reputational damage. But they
(18:00):
handled it so well, and this certainly predated me. But
you learn like it became like the lore and almost
like this incredible point of pride that if you even
worked years later on tailand you talked about how well
that company navigated itself through a crisis, and now here
they are again with the President of the United States.
It's literally going on national television saying don't take Thailand all,
(18:23):
especially if you're pregnant.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
It's bad for you. Contrary frankly to most clinical evidence.
What do you do about that? And I think they've
frankly done.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
A really good job again because they stayed true to
what they know, what they believe, and they didn't get
down in the mud about it. We have a couple
of friends who are on that board, Stephen, and we
know people there. I mean, that had to be an
incredibly stressful leadership moment.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
But just think about.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
This if you zoom out, is any brand safe in
this day and age. It's even shocking to even say,
not just from our government, right, yeah, not just from
our president, but just from the quick backlash, the you know,
immediate you know kind of rage machine. Yes, where no
(19:11):
matter what you do, you're going to piss someone off.
And so I feel like there needs to be a
new playbook the way that brand are going to kind
of introduce a topic, you know, talk about a stuffing
like you can't even do comedy anymore, right because even
that'll be controversial. I mean, I know someone that may
have I know someone that may have dipped her toe
into some comedy stuff. I mean, well, would you have
(19:33):
ever imagined that Jimmy Kimmel would have been controversial in fairness?
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Perhaps yes, in the sense that I mean when we
partnered basically in media integration way back several months ago
with J. C.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Penny, it was just you.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Don't can about taking chances, in being brave and being See,
this is the thing. I think when you are actually
confident as a leader and as a brand, so as
a human, as a brand, when you you know who
you are, then you actually can be, as a human
a little vulnerable. I think when we're afraid, then we
don't want to have anyone see any flaws because we think,
(20:10):
oh my gosh, see I'm going to be found out.
When you're actually confident, you're willing to show that you're human,
and I think that makes you much more trusted and
much more likable. I think brand similarly, when you get
confident about where you're going and what you're doing, that's
when you actually can take some chances and be a
little bit playful. Again, depending upon the brand, the situation, etc.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
But your unique because one, you obviously have just this
incredible experience and track record, so you are confident because
of who you are. But you also have an incredible
leadership team. You are backed by a great CEO, and
he believes in you and he gives you the ability
to kind of do your magic. Not everyone is as
lucky to have that, and so there are all these
(20:53):
different dimensions. How can you take risks when maybe the
rest of the leadership team isn'tcomfortable with that, says they
want change, But we know, Marisa, most people don't.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
That's literally my tech doog.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Now I actually can say that is my tuch talk
since it went live. It is true all those variables matter.
But here's the other thing. It's like the old I
better carry an umbrella so it doesn't rain.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
You gotta be prepared.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
And what I meant to say about the comedy part
is this whole Pimmel moment erupted and it's nice to
see that. Maybe that's waning too, and we move on
to the next thing. But right as that's happening, we
are launching on our j C. Penny business campaign for
our really big deals with rising comedians, and of course
we vetted them, but you know, I had to be
(21:40):
really honest and say I can't tell you it's de
risk to the point of zero.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Because to your point, Steven.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
What is truly truly safe? I mean never getting out
of bed in the morning. I don't know, just by
being out there and trying and living there is some
level of risk. You have to be I think, honorable
and vote enough to be cognizant of what those risks
are and to try to do all you can to
be smart and be prepared.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
That to me is.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
The best way to then consciously do something a little
different and know your audience. So that's the thing. If
you're playing to an audience that represents a cross section
of America, then you're not trying to provoke. And if
you're a brand that's kind of an edgy coastal, that
is part of the vision and clarity of knowing who
(22:30):
you are and what you're doing and knowing who your
customer is.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
So no to bud Light, you know, and again the
very unfortunate, you know, kind of backlash that they experience.
I feel for all these brands, the people and the positions,
because again that was probably some mid level you know,
director person you know that was trying to do something
and when you try to speak to everyone it's really
(22:54):
difficult today because I think the whole idea of mass,
like those days are truly over and is going to
be personalized at scale and everyone's in their own bubble,
and so how do you really find the different groups
and the cohorts? Like how do you manage that? I
feel like those are the lessons. And then if you're
someone that's you know, kind of coming up in your career,
(23:15):
what appetite do you have to take a risk if
it's so easy for you to kind of just get
acts or get blamed, it's hard, right, Like, how do
you actually take those calculated risks in your career that
maybe you did when you were coming up and you
were leading digital at Estate Lauder or some of these
other places, Like you probably had a little bit of,
you know, more slack, right, you had more opportunity to
(23:37):
kind of fail forward in a way that maybe folks
don't have today.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
I know, don't assume at every point the risks were
different because of age, stage, and moment.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
And they are.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Risks because they're risky, so you have to be calculated
about them. I don't think I'll tell you something. The
visual metaphor I use about risk taking and it's very
I think visually this then I put this in presentations.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
This is what I picture is.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
I picture like a circus act, like a high wire
circus act. And I think when you ask people to
be creative to take risks in a company environment, I'm
not Maybe on a personal level this is true too.
People want to get up and they want to perform
in the circus, but no one really wants to think
(24:25):
that if they make a little misstep they're going to
fall to their death. This is quite a realistic metaphor,
and that's where you want to know that there's a
net underneath you. That net is your leadership, that net
is your team, and so that to me is the Also,
in a way, the mental calculus that you make with
(24:46):
risk taking is if I'm going to get up there
and try and if I happen to fall, is there
going to be a net?
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Now.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
The other thing is if you're the boss and you
have someone who keeps getting up there and falling, it's
fair to say maybe this person shouldn't be in this circle.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
That's okay too.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
I mean that's real life too, because it's business and
it's the real world and we all have to perform
in this metaphor I'm using, but quite literally, in business,
that's to me the compact though. I'll get up there
and if I'm good, if I'm really good, But every
once in a while I make a misstep. Am I
going to fall to my death? Or is there a
net underneath me? And in a world right now where
(25:25):
everything feels so fraught, it does, just does because we
don't know where the next arrow is going to be
slung from, or what's going to erupt or the rage
baiting as you said, that is where I think in
a way, it's about calculated risk. It's about risk, but
there's a safety net.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Well, you know, it's interesting there's this whole kind of
you know, meme going on throughout Wall Street talking about
labor markets, and it's that we are now stuck in
the low higher low fire cycle.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Yeah, you look at kind of like the jobs market
and just some of the data coming out that could
also very quickly change once you start to see again
more and more adoption of AI. Everyone's kind of going
through the trough of disillusionment, as Gartner calls it, that
oh the stuff, where's the ROI? Everyone's trying to pipe
up about that. But again I keep trying to remind folks,
today is the shittiest that AI will ever be. And
(26:19):
so again you kind of look at this that it's
going to continue to progress very quickly. But I feel
like we're in this holding pattern right now. Maybe you
want to kind of keep the folks that you have,
but you're probably not hiring as aggressively as you were maybe,
you know, twelve to eighteen months ago, and so we're
all being asked to do more with less.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Doesn't feel that way to me in the corporate world, now,
what do you see? I think it.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Still feels volatile, But maybe it's because our industries tend
to also be on the sort of in the Bell
curve of volatility, maybe a little on the higher end
of it.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Retail is definitely, you know, probably at the extreme.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
I didn't mean retail.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
I just meant the marketing meet like, but I don't know,
I don't know. It just seems like there's a lot
of movement always, or a lot of people looking to move.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
So that's interesting data, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
It's something that's really been discussed in the markets, you know.
I think there was an article in the f FT
over the weekend about it too, but just kind of
seeing where is the puck going. If there's anything as
we go into this new season, I really like just
ask all of our listeners please, you know, kind of
give us this feedback, right, because I think we're going
to go on the offense to really talk about how
(27:30):
do we see careers evolving? What can we see at
every level? Right, because it's not just entry level folks
or folks in the twenties and thirties, like even a
lot of our peers MRSA. Right, because you're starting to
see a lot of you know, folks very gently being
pushed out of a role or hey, you know what,
now I'm going after my portfolio strategy. You know, that's
kind of fractional type work. Again, I don't like that word,
(27:53):
but I feel like we are in this you know,
kind of liminal period where we're moving into a new
world of work, and if there's anything that we can
do is just have real talk about that. And I
feel like that's you know, kind of always core to
the reason why we started brand new.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Well, let's take a little break. When we come back.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
I want to circle back on one other part of
the intersection of trust brands and AI and then we'll
do cooler cringe with ourselves. How does that sound.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
That sounds awesome. Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
We'll be right back. Okay, we're back.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
We've been talking about a whole bunch of different things,
all this pent up conversation we've had from being away
from each other and away from Brand New for a
couple of months.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
I love these kind of episodes where it's just you
and I and we get you know what.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
I hope our listeners do too, because there's.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Just a lot to discuss in our world that we
think is important and interesting. But so I'm going to
bring it back to the truly the intersection A.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
We're going to talk about how Arsenal's top of the table.
Is that the key key topic right now?
Speaker 4 (28:56):
Sorry?
Speaker 2 (28:56):
That's that's for all my Arsenal fans out there.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
I see we did not make get through an episode
without at least football back on the table. Okay, See,
everything changes, nothing changes. That's one of my other propositions.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
I mean, by the way, it's only going to get
worse because like the new I did ask World Cup Ball.
Okay next year it's coming.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
I know what, I'm getting you for Christmas? Okay, Sartica.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
All right, So here's what I want to just bring up,
one more brand, one more story about trust. And it's
interesting because I saw these ads when I was just
in New York a week ago on the subway. David,
my husband, and I were talking about it. So across
in New York City a company called Friend spent I
think over a million dollars on platform posters, ads, and
(29:47):
subway cars, urban panels, a ton of them.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
And what Friend.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Is is an AI company that's basically you know, says
we'll always be with you, will always be listening to
be your friend. Here's the interesting thing is people kind
of really flipped out negative way, and people are defacing
the ads, calling it everything from surveillance capitalism, telling people
(30:16):
you don't have to go here, get real friends, like
as if it's this defining societal moment represented in this.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Ad, like you have a path to choose. We have
to talk about that. How are people really feeling about this.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Explosion of AI in their lives because we talk about it,
I think appropriately in a very bullish way and excited way,
because our jobs is to involves embracing change. But there
is some real public fear and skepticism that I think
this particular new player really really brought out. And I'm
(30:57):
very curious about your thoughts.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
All right, So for all of our listeners out there,
just the levels that friend is a new company, and
what they've done is they've actually created a device. So
it's an aipowered necklace, right that basically is always on
listening to your conversations. Because again, all of the multimodal
frontier models, they have all the different functionalities, whether it's audio, video,
(31:24):
you know, text image, and so this is actually having
a pendent around your neck and it listens and so
you could actually chat with it using obviously voice. So
this is not new. There's been many attempts at it.
I think what is different is the fact that they
just kind of completely misread the market and the way
they went about building their brand. Merisa, and again to
(31:48):
everyone in Silicon Valley, please you need to give a
shit about marketing, right, you need to care about your
brand because just because you can do something doesn't mean
that you know how to connect with And this is
always the issue that tech companies have because they talk
to themselves, they live in a bubble, and they don't
understand that the ability to understand the human nuance right
(32:12):
and kind of understanding how to read the room. That's
usually a misfire. And in this case, there's been this
kind of you know, building backlash against kind of these
synthetic characters. And by the way, consumers are talking out
of both sides of their mouths, because on the one hand,
consumers are absolutely relying on chat sheept claude. The number
(32:33):
one use case is using them for conversational empathetic relationships.
So that will continue, right, that will continue to be
a thing, and it's only going to accelerate. But there's
another company called character Ai, and someone that was a teenager,
you know, using character ai to kind of have a
conversation with a synthetic friend, actually committed suicide. And so
(32:57):
that's on the opposite extreme. There are no guardrails for
this technology. There's no regulation because again who needs regulation
in this country? And I just think the way they
went about doing this campaign was just so off. So again,
the technology will continue to evolve. Again, there's rumors that
open ai is actually working on a pendant as well,
some type of audio voice enabled device. But this does
(33:20):
give pause to the way that you're rolling it out
and messaging it.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Yep, good cautionary tale in that regard, the fundamentals still matter,
brand and human connection still matters, and how we tell
our story really really matters.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
But I'm curious your perspective on this, because on the
flip side, this is not going to stop. Right, Privacy
truly is viewed as dead because people care about convenience
over privacy. If they care so much about privacy, they
wouldn't have given all their data to all the social
media platforms right for the past twenty years. So as
there's going to be a better way to row out
(33:54):
a product like this, or there'll be different use cases
they'll learn from this kind of mistake. These will be
the new ways, the new UX and UI interfaces that
consumers are going to deal with AI. So when you
think about this, like, is this the kind of thing
where you're just like wow, like absolutely, we're never going
to experiment with something like this, Or do you take
this as oh, this is just kind of an outlier
(34:16):
because they did it wrong. But obviously this kind of
new way to engage with consumers, you know, with customers
like this is coming.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
How do you view it.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
I think people are voting with their reactions on where
they want some lines drawn. That's how I see it.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
It doesn't mean it's a referendum on AI is only
good or only bad, because of course we're using it.
We're using in our lives knowingly and of course sometimes
very much unknowingly, because it's being woven into the fabric
of technology.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
That's part of our daily lives.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
But I think that it is saying we still want
to have some con troll in how we lead our lives,
what conversations that we have with other people still have
privacy around them. I think there are real issues that
this has brought to the surface. And frankly, when you
see the other types of more marketing driven backlash moments
(35:18):
that have happened, and they've not been huge moments, but
like J Crew took a bunch of heat just very
recently for people calling them out on using images of
their own retro product using AI and not disclosing it.
Why does that bother people because it erodes trust. It's
(35:38):
everything we've been talking about. It says, I don't know
what to believe from you if you aren't even going
to represent your own productor your own people wearing the
product in actuality, what do I know what.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
To believe anymore?
Speaker 3 (35:52):
And that is where I think AI is freaking people out.
Is what I'm seeing real or not?
Speaker 1 (35:57):
That's scary.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
I think we want to embrace and delight in all
the creativity and possibilities and time efficiency and help that
it's giving us. But I think the cautionary tale is
what you said, so I was ready to end it
right there where you said it was right, cautionary tale
on just like Silgon Valley. Don't think that's just incidental.
(36:21):
Caring about the messaging, caring about the brand, thinking about
your strategy and what you're saying. But I think the
other lenses, through the customer or people, I should just say,
people are saying, hang on, we'll go faster with you,
but we're not ready for all of it yet.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
That's real.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Well, by the way, did you see the hottest actor
in Hollywood, Tilly Norwood? Have you heard of her?
Speaker 1 (36:43):
No?
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Hilly is an AI actor and Hollywood is freaking out.
I mean again, like this is not new news. Like
I really feel that Hollywood is going to be so
disrupted by AI. It's just it's coming and they're just
not prepared, right. And I live in la and I
see it, but everyone freaked out.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Big articles about that.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
Now, what's happening to the creator economy of La?
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Absolutely? And again the jobs. There's an article in the
New York Times over the weekend Wall Street Journal. But
this AI actor, again, this is going to be the
first of so many. And of course studios are going
to use it. Of course directors are going to use it.
But just to see the backlash, and so I think
it might just be a moment in time, just because
the wave is such a tsunami, you can't avoid it.
(37:30):
And so maybe this is just the early days that
you see the backlash. But a year from now, two
years from now, are we still going to see a backlash.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
Yes, there's always going to be backlash that I think
we know. The question is how will it change in
the next couple of years, because your point three years ago,
it was not in our public consciousness.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
The way it's very fast.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
I love you were saying earlier, and I meant to
say this about we were in the first inning and
how we're in the second inning. I think that's the
right way to look at it. But boy, are these
innings fast.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
They're a lot fatter.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
As game is when the innings are a lot faster
than there used to be.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Velocity velocity.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
All Right, you want to play a couple of cooler
cringe and we'll call it a return show.
Speaker 4 (38:12):
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Let's do it. This is fun because when we have
a guest, we just listen to what they say. But
I like always knowing what we think. It's cooler cringe,
and I think our listeners do too.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Listeners bring the questions for the next episode, but we'll
do the cooler cringe.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
With Okay, it sounds good, This is funny.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
I thought of this when I was reading someone's LinkedIn post.
We'll keep the person anonymous, and it was like a
pretty senior person but wrote something like.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
So this, I'm making this example up, but it's close
to protect the guilty.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
So I was at Starbucks and this barista taught me
this great lesson in leadership, and I was thinking, wow, okay,
so LinkedIn life lesson posts?
Speaker 1 (38:50):
Is this cool or cringe relatable or made up?
Speaker 2 (38:55):
It's so hard I'm going to go with cringe butt.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
Using LinkedIn does to kind of basically pat yourself on
the back. I mean, honestly, anyone that's listening, if you're
doing a LinkedIn post and it's just a picture of yourself,
you got to stop doing that. Please stop that, right,
I mean, if you're speaking in it's like a picture
of you on a panel with like five other people,
that's different, right.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Well, are you seeing that? Are you seeing people just
post pictures?
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Oh my god? People absolutely they post something like oh,
you know, I've read this good book, but a picture
of them. Oh my god, all the time, like read
the room. If you're going to do a leadership lesson,
like you know, so someone I think does it very
well is actually Miriam Benacara. She is authentic and she
talks about real messy She's a whole pod, you know,
(39:45):
plug for Miriam's pod, the messy parts, right, So she
talks about, hey I failed here or here was a
real lesson and it's like warts and all, but like
drop the whole pretentious Oh I was talking to the barista,
and like you really just using that as a way
to kind of put some content out there because you
want to be relevant and feed the algorithm. That's cringe.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Yeah, I think just for me.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
It would be a cringe too if it feels if
you realize underneath this sort of attempt at humility is
really some form of condescension. It's just going to keep
coming back to the same theme of trust and authenticity.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Like it's just the humble brag. Just if you want
to brag, brag, but don't do the humble brag.
Speaker 3 (40:22):
Yeah, all right, maybe we covered this. I'll hit you
with the next one. Then you can it's your turn.
Since we talked about friend like the you know AI device,
and then we also talked about and I've read this too,
one of the tough use cases of chat GPT is
companionship advice therapy.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
So is this cooler cringe AI as a friend?
Speaker 2 (40:47):
I think AI is a friend today without any guardrails, regulations,
anything like that that is cringed. But I feel the
understanding of for example, you think about the medical field,
and you think about having you know, kind of a
doctor assistant that actually is trained in everything around chemotherapy
(41:10):
and you know, kind of oncology and all the things,
and to basically have a conversation with that type of
chatbot that is going to make it easier as you
go through that path, that journey that's real, right, So
that is that is cool because you do need help
and you need that knowledge and the delivery of that
information can actually be very impactful. And so there are
(41:30):
really powerful use cases for using these technologies, and I
think companies are really starting to verticalize that those will
be successful examples. The downside that we don't know is
for you know, maybe not so much for your kids, Merca,
because they're a little bit older, but for my generation,
my kids which are seven and ten, they will grow
up and they will have synthetic friends, Like it's going
(41:53):
to be a thing, like every kind of kid will
see these characters out there, and if there are no
guardrails around that kind of stuff, that becomes very cringeworthy.
Speaker 3 (42:01):
Oh, I know, my daughters and their friends are already
using it as therapy. I mean, you hope that they're
sophisticated enough to distinguish. I'd a really interesting here's my
answer to it. By the way, a really interesting conversation
with someone about this very topic the other day, and
they said, the problem with AI as a friend is
(42:21):
the algorithms are changed, So no matter what you tell it,
it's going to be a supportive friend and validate you
even if you're saying And that's where the extreme example
of this person killed themselves is unfortunately, like the algorithms,
strange just to tell you you're always right.
Speaker 4 (42:36):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
Actually the question is is AI ready to be a
good friend in the ways that we need good friends,
which will also tell you when you're about to make
a bad choice or where there's a better way to go.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
That's so interesting to me.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Right, But by the way, everyone listening, please go watch
or rewatch the movie Her. Yeah, I haven't seen it.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Yes, that was twenty that was ahead of its.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Time, okay, Mike Jones director, and it just predicted the
whole idea of having a relationship with an AI and
just to see it kind of unfold. Again, today's the
shittiest it'll ever be. It's only going to get better.
So like again, let's have this conversation twelve to eighteen
months from now. I think it'll be.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
Very different, Neil, all right, I took the first couple.
You how about you wrap us with one more?
Speaker 2 (43:24):
All right, here you go, here we go, core cringe more. Okay,
executives using AI headshots.
Speaker 3 (43:32):
Well, my family will tell you it's cringe because several
months ago I thought it would be fun to play
around with it.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
I saw some people doing it.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
I thought they looked kind of cool, and I got
a resounding.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Oh hell no, these are terrible. They don't.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
So I'm I guess we're in a cringey questioning mood.
I'm going to go straight cringe down the three today.
Speaker 4 (43:56):
I'm going to say cool.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
I'm going to say cool, like you actually can use it,
and again it could be done. You use you know,
actual photos and the technology. Again, it's only getting better
and there's so many folks that actually use it. And
you know, fun fact, if you look at my headshot
on LinkedIn, that is an AI headshot.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Now I have to go check it out.
Speaker 4 (44:18):
No, you gotta check it out, all right, all right?
Speaker 2 (44:20):
And then and then last one, oh one more oka,
last one. Okay, candidates admitting they used AI to prep
for their interview Q and a cool cringe.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Oh okay.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Can I tell you something this happened to me recently.
I was interviewing someone and it was a job that
absolutely I mean, like most jobs I suppose where I'd
want to know the person was at least conversant and
comfortable with using AI tools for their work. But this
candidate was particularly it was almost like it was off putting.
(44:56):
I'm going to be honest when she was like, you know,
I prepped for this interview and all my questions came
from AI, and maybe it was just being that direct
about it. Basically what she was saying was I couldn't
come up with original thoughts to ask you, so I
just had to have AI do the work for me.
And listen, is there a candidate that isn't using AI
(45:16):
for interview prep? I would think not, and I would
frankly be surprised, Like I tell my own friends, daughters, whomever, like,
of course, it's so easy to get prepared now, for
there's so much knowledge at our fingertips, even more than
just Google gives us. But I think you have to
be very careful about how you talk about it. I
(45:37):
found that, I'll tell you, the way that came across
was a little uncomfortable. Now, maybe that was just me,
and I'm not saying it's I would universally call this
a cringe.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
I wouldn't.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
I think the cool is doing the homework. The cringe
is not knowing how to use it as a guide
versus a total crutch.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
Interesting, it depends on how you use it. So I
think it's cool if you are making yourself smarter, because again,
you now have super intelligence in your pocket, and there's
no reason why you should not be using these tools
to get smarter, to learn to get better. But again
you have to think, and I think the fear that
I have just like all these things, like when Google
first came out, like people are like, oh, you're going
(46:18):
to be dumb because you're not going to you know,
know anything, or like when smartphones came out, you're not
going to remember a phone number, Like well, some information
maybe you don't need to know, but you need to
know how to think, and how can you think on
your feet when you don't have access to these tools.
So using these things to prepare to get smarter, to
understand the industry, competitive landscape, like all those things, even
(46:39):
to help you ask smarter questions. But you do need
to know how to think, and you don't want to
end up like Wally right, Like remember the end of
the movie, everyone's like lazy and just you know, out
of shape, and these things will make you atrophy.
Speaker 4 (46:54):
And so all of us have to stay sharp.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
That's a great way to end.
Speaker 3 (46:58):
And you know what, Normally we'd go to a question
from our audience on what's on your mind. Since we've
taken a little break, we want to make sure we
get a fresh pipeline of them. So please tell us
what's on your mind? What do you want us talking about?
Speaker 1 (47:12):
What questions do you have for us to answer?
Speaker 3 (47:14):
By emailing us at ideas at brand dashnew dot com.
You can also just drop a comment into our social
channels and send us a DM and we get them
there too. But that's all for now. Thanks for coming back.
We're glad to be back and we hope to see
you again next time. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
Join us next time for brand New
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