March 5, 2025 • 46 mins
If it feels like a year has already happened in two months, for those in the world of business and brands, keeping a finger on the pulse of how consumers are feeling is as critical now as ever. Joining Marisa and Steven on this episode is the CEO of the famed Harris Poll, John Gerzema. In this current climate, will Americans “keep calm and carry on… shopping?” How can business leaders and particularly marketers make a tighter connection with price-stressed consumers? What matters more: facts or feelings? And… is there still cause for optimism? This is one for which you are going to want to take notes!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Well, hello, and thanks for joining us on brand New
from the iHeart Podcast Network and Brand New Labs. I'm
Marissa Thalberg and.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I'm Steven wolf Dada.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
Oh it's good to be home for at least a
few hours, Marissa, because I've been traveling like a madman.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
You are in true founder mode. I'm starting to think
of my house as my weekend house, even though it's
just my house.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So it's like a Delta flight your weekday house American.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Because I live in Charlotte, which is a major hub.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
I'm loyal to our friend Alicia Tillman of Delta, so
all Delta all the way.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Yeah, this is not about a marketing relationship for me.
This is about hubs where all my I mean, I'm
just waiting to be concierge.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
Key.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I don't know why I'm not already. I'm flying literally
every week, but at least I'm executive Platinum, so that's there.
You go something.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
It's all about the status.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
It's crazy how we define ourselves with our staff.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
It's so true.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
It's such a thing. You've been traveling a lot too.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I've been traveling almost every week, actually every week, every
week since the start of the year primarily now to
my two office locations, Dallas and also New York. So
New York's great because of course I'm from there, and
I get to squeeze in a visit with Hannah whenever possible, and.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
You get to see your daughter.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
I get to see my daughter. So that makes sense
for me in terms of, you know, balancing being an
executive mom. And even though she's an adult. It's great
when your kids grow up and they still really want
to be with you. And actually it was so nice
because for the first time since September, David and I
got to go to see Avery at at Chapel Hill
University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, go to our heels.
(01:46):
In fact, we went to our first basketball game and
saw them win. So that was really exciting. Yeah, it's
like I was just talking about this with a friend yesterday.
It's like when all said and down as a parent,
when your kids are good good.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Yeah, honestly, like I'm going to get all of the
parenting pointers from you, you know, because, as most of
our listeners know, my kids are younger and so you know,
being on the road, you know, similar to you, I'm
going a lot to either New York my hometown San
Francisco obviously, because you know, all the tech community is there,
and you know, it's just so hard being away from
(02:20):
the kids because.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
I want to be there, feel you.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
You know, Sana seven and she's doing musical theater, which
we've discussed, and you know you're going to give her
lots of pointers.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
I'm a very proud aunt.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
You are a proud pa.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
And and you know in Seventhion is obviously playing club
soccer and proud Papa moment last night because we're recording
the weekends because we're on the road during the week
so last night seventh Jon was actually a player escort.
He was one of the ball boys, effectively walking out
on the pitch with Los Angeles Football Club LAFC. So
(02:55):
that was pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Oh that is so what a thrill. I mean, he's
such of a rising star athlete. He must have just
been beside himself.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
I mean it's funny, right, Like, I don't want to
put any pressure on him. I just want him to
have fun I mean, he legit has athletic talent. I
don't I think it's skipped the generation because my dad
was athletic. But I always like to say. You know,
I'm a professional business athlete. You know, I'll kind of
outperform anyone in business. But now, but he loves the game.
And it's just to your point. If our kids are good,
you know we're good, but being on the road and
(03:26):
you know we have a lot of travel coming up again.
I'm on the red eye tonight. We have our big
Alpha board forum this week in New York, so I'm
back there.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
It's going to be amazing and I can't wait to
talk about the learnings from it if you're willing.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Oh absolutely, I just feel this responsibility. Everyone really needs
to kind of learn upskill. It's you know, there was
a great LinkedIn post by a professor at NYU who
does a lot of you know, kind of talking about
AI and you know his name is Connor Grennan, and
he gave this great example about the thigh Master effect
and how everyone bought thigh Master. I know we're probably
(04:02):
dating ourselves, you know, for all of you younger lessers,
google what a thigh master is. You know kind of absolutely,
but like ten million units were sold and what happened.
It just stayed in the closet, no one used it,
but everyone bought it. And I feel like that's kind
of like this moment that we're in right now, where
like everyone's talking about AI, everyone's you know, maybe buying
(04:25):
some licenses, but no one's using it. It hasn't transformed
human behavior. And I just feel like that is just
across every kind of category, so many different things, you know,
trying to change human behavior, whether it's trying to get
shoppers to go to you know, your brands, trying to
get people to upscale, trying to eat healthy, or trying
to get my kids to clean their room, whatever it is,
(04:47):
changing human behavior is probably one of the hardest things.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
That's definitely true, you know, And we're all running at
such a pace too that on the one hand, the
promise all that is to make our lives easier, but
it's hard, you know, if you're not living it the
way you are, can be hard to figure out exactly.
For me, it's like the question is beyond chat GPT,
what does it mean to incorporate it in daily life
(05:12):
for the general public for.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Sure, But speaking of changing human behavior, I'm thrilled for
our podcast guest who is a friend of the pod.
Do you want to tell us a little bit about
John of course.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, Well, you know, this just shows how you and
I can manifest, right, so we I think during our
end of our last episode, we're like, oh, Harris Pool,
John Gerzma, he'd be a great guest in Boom. We
made it happen. So John Grozmo, who's CEO of Harris Pool,
is coming on. He's also a New York Times bestselling
author as well as CEO of Harris Pool, and I
(05:49):
just can't wait to bring him into the conversation because
it's interesting when you think about everything we've been through
in just the last half decade, not even in segments
of ten, segments of five, think about this.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
I thought we were just going to talk about the
past two months. I'm still my head's still spinning.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Well, I was trying to pull back the aperture just
a tiny bit more. You're right, I mean just the
past two months. I think we're all feeling that, But
just the last half decade. Let's think about this, global pandemics, wars, inflation, wildfires, floods,
of course, politics.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
And you're just talking about California. I'm just curious, Oh
too soon, soon, really too soon.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
But I mean what's interesting is consumer spending has been
a constant, which you don't think about it that way.
It's true. It doesn't mean it's been consistently the same,
but it's been a constant and there is no one
better at helping decode how Americans are really thinking and
feeling than him. So I mean, perfect time to get
(06:47):
into it with You're right, last two months, last five years.
So when we come back, we're gonna bring John on. Okay,
we're back and delighted to have John Garizma joining us.
As mentioned, John is the CEO of the Harris Pole
and if you don't know the Harris Poll, which is
(07:07):
highly doubtful, it's been tracking the sentiment, behaviors, and motivations
of Americans for over sixty years. So this is going
to be juicy.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
Hi John, Ay, Marissa, how are you hasty?
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Great to have you John.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
So it's kind of feeling like a year has already
happened in two months, and for all of us in
the world of brands, keeping a finger on the pulse
is always so critical in terms of how people are feeling.
So we're really excited to have you help us get
underneath that. And you know, we were talking a little
before I know you said that in spite of everything,
Americans have kind of adapted the British slogan of keep
(07:42):
calm and carry on and to keep calm and carry
on shopping. And you know, look, I'm in retail now,
so this is a poignant one for me. And you
look at what retailers are reporting, even Walmart. Walmart issuing
more cautious guidance for the rest of the year. So
let's go right there. What do you think are American
consumer is going to keep calm and carry on shopping?
Speaker 4 (08:05):
Please?
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Like, what is the state of consumer sentiment and confidence
right now?
Speaker 4 (08:09):
You know, Marissa, it's interesting. We have tracked weekly consumer
sentiment since COVID at a tracker that we called the
America This Week Tracker, and we had anxiety for the
last five years at roughly about eighty percent. But if
you look at that at the same time, you know,
after we went through COVID and we kind of then
went in through this whole period of inflation, the consumer
(08:32):
was really durable. Right. The consumer spending, which represents seventy
percent of American GDP kind of just kept right along cranking.
So we've got some cautious numbers and we continue to
sort of see that sense with Americans. But I think
it's important to think about how much people suffered during
COVID and during the inflation. And I always am fond
(08:55):
of thinking about inflation has lost choice and so when
you have higher prices, there's things you don't get to do.
You don't get to go to Applebee's, you don't get
to go to the theater, you don't get to go
to restaurants, all those kinds of things. Right, So I
think we're seeing signs of sort of concern in our data.
Fifty percent of Americans and our data are using buy now,
(09:17):
pay later. Of those people you know, are really struggling.
A really interesting statistic from last week forty percent of
Americans think that foreign countries pay for terriffs, right, So
they haven't factored maybe that into the things. So there's
a lot, a lot to kind of unpack.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Oh yeah, wow, John, I remember hearing or reading somewhere
that the day after the presidential election election night, a
top trending Google question was what are tariffs? I'm like, God,
that would have been a good question asked the day
before the election.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Totally, Well, we don't have debates anymore? Right, John?
Speaker 3 (09:55):
So, I mean, how would people even know about that stuff?
I mean, I study economics, you know, an undergrad. Being Latino,
you deal with not just inflation. You know, we've dealt
with hyper inflation all throughout Latin America. So this is
something that is certainly near and dear. But I don't
think people understand, you know, kind of the environment and
what it truly means. Can you just break it down
(10:17):
in Layman's terms, right, Like, why is inflation such a
concern not just from a consumer perspective, but also from
a brand perspective from the companies in terms of their
products and services.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
Yeah, you know, Steven answered that question back in May.
We ran a poll with The Guardian, and you got
to remember, at this moment, inflation was still really high,
but economic recovery was really strong. But we did a
pop quiz with Americans and we asked them if we
were in a recession or not, which clearly weren't. The
majority of Americans thought we were in a recession at
(10:50):
fifty six percent. Fifty five percent thought the economy was
shrinking when it was growing, and forty nine percent said
the S and P was down and percense that unemployment
was in an all time high, right, an all time low.
What was so interesting in the data was inflation just
became such a micro issue for Americans that even why
(11:11):
Biden was running on a strong economy, our data was saying,
people don't believe it.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
This goes back to the vibes that you were talking about, right,
I mean, just to you know, kind of really demensionalize this.
Inflation is truly seeing the sustain increase in prices across
the economy, which results in a decline in your purchasing power,
and so understanding all of the second and third order
effects of reduced purchasing power, you know, you know, it
increases your cost of living, you know, obviously it's a
(11:37):
redistribution of wealth. You know, obviously results in higher interest rates,
and so there's this whole impact on wages. And it's
so funny because you hear so many people throughout COVID,
you know, either say it was absolutely the most difficult
period of their life, or you talk to people that
are usually more well off and literally it was the
best time of their life. And I think that is
(11:58):
shining a light on the income in equality that we
see in this country and we're not going to play
the buzzword bingo and you know, mentioned AI at every
single turn. But I know, but just understanding all the
pressures that we're going to see from increased inequality, Understanding
you know, kind of the impact of what is to come.
(12:21):
I'm just so curious, like, how do you see you know,
this idea of the vibes because people are just so
ignorant to these issues and the fact that the economy
was growing but they didn't feel it. That feel is
really important, and you know, I think a lot of
people think that the feel is going to get even
worse going forward.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
Yeah. I couldn't agree more. I mean, we run a
monthly poll called Axios Vibes with Axios, which is designed
to really get in and understand those feelings. And in January,
we have this data that said that fifty nine percent
of Americans said they were triggered by going to the.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Grocery store in January.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
Right, So it's triggered.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
Yes, But this is why it's so important to go
to real America. What we try to do, you know,
is if you're thinking about a market research project, you're
really focused on your brand, You're focused on your issues, Right,
you want to get to a creative brief or whatever
your brand challenges. What polling does is just step back
and look at real life and look at the life
(13:19):
of people around your brand. And so if you're getting
in there and really understanding kitchen table issues, you're seeing
how just tremendously difficult it is for the majority of Americans. Right,
So I think that's what becomes so important. I mean,
we had this really fascinating study that we ran last
year that found that granny's were the hidden driver of
(13:42):
economic recovery, and we were like, wait, what And what
ended up happening was we talked to working parents and
sixty seven percent of working parents in America told us
they probably wouldn't have been able to sustain their job
or keep a second job if they didn't have somebody
(14:03):
at home. They didn't have mom, mother in law at
home to help out.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
So and by the way, like, my family's one of them,
if it wasn't for my wife and Aria's mom, like,
we wouldn't be able to do what we do.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
Absolutely, But that's the kind of stuff where I was
looking for is like, how does the world impact around
your brand? So you have the consumer and their numbers
and you're spending, But what's their life really like? Is
the question?
Speaker 1 (14:24):
John? How has that changed in the past couple of
months though? So, I mean I was interested January in
terms of because January is a little before and after
from a political standpoint, and we're not trying to go
there per se, really just through the lens of So
what's happening now with a consumer? I mean, February was
a tough month in retail, So I don't actually feel
(14:47):
very surprised hearing your grocery store finding untriggered because all
of that hullabaloo about the price of eggs and now
in some grocery stores you can't even find eggs. But
beyond the eggs, the.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Eggs, I'm okay, I like eggs.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Well, what's going on in terms of how you are
seeing if you are, is it just a consistent like
people have just been anxious and it's continuing and the
vibe thing that Stephen was bringing up, or has something
changed over the past two months.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
I think Americans are still in a wait and see mode.
You still have fifty one percent of Americans saying the
economies on the wrong track. Interesting Republicans flip, which they
do every time. Democrats are now negative and Republicans are
now positive. But when you get out of that political
part of it, you just ask people questions about back
to Steven's question around inflation, it's killing them, it's really
(15:39):
hurting them. But this is a really big thing.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Guys.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
We've always seen consumers and Americans blame government who was
ever in office for these issues, but now they're starting
to blame business. And we ran our reputation survey that
we do with axios every year, and seventy one percent
of corporate reputations went down last year and it was
directly tied to the consumer perceiving that businesses were passing
(16:05):
along costs right and they were pocketing profits.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
And that's before terrs.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
Yeah, well this is a misalignment. And so just a
question Mercy, we asked last month, we said, who do
you blame for your personal financial situation? Among people who
felt stuck or falling behind, and thirty eight percent blame
businesses for their prices, versus thirty percent for government and
(16:31):
their policies, versus another thirty percent or so for themselves
and their own behavior. So I think it's kind of
an interesting challenge right now, and it's really tough. I'd
love to hear your guys' viewpoints as business leaders, but
to be running brands and running a business right now
with this the public, I mean something that's definitely changing.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
I'll say. And I'm hoping to pick your brain on
behalf of our listeners and myself and ourselves in terms
of how do you make that tighter connection right now
with a price stressed consumer, because it is that, And
I'll tell you just really briefly. For me, I had
such an interesting epiphany moment in my career when I
went from luxury beauty to Taco Bell, because you know,
(17:14):
I went from essentially a higher income customer to everyone
and I loved that, and I've loved that ever since.
I've loved really thinking about how you make average American
consumers and I don't mean average in a derogatory way,
feel good about their choices, not feel compromised. That continues
(17:36):
to be such an interesting, motivating part of what I do.
But it's not easy. It's really not easy because we
have a world of choices and limited means for many Americans,
and you can really be on the coasts and maybe
not feel that the same way, or be in business
and not live it day to day. So what's your
(17:59):
lefe from being so finger on the pulse of how
what is working with people? What's working with the connection
between marketers and business leaders and regular working American consumers
to make them feel okay to shop?
Speaker 4 (18:16):
A couple of things. I think one is about brand
empathy and pointing back to our data, but two thirds
of Americans told us this was in December, that they
would spend more on brands that they felt really cared
about them. And I think that's where this comes to
this point. I mean, some of this stuff seems so
basic in old fashioned, but I think the public feels misaligned,
(18:37):
misaligned by business leaders, by politicians, and now by their brands.
And not that we have to get into all the
brand and politics stuff on this, but I think that's
a distraction for consumers. They really want brands to focus
on them. And so fifty five percent also said that
they would spend more on brands that they felt really
cared about them. So getting back to those values values,
(19:00):
whatever those brand values are, and being old fashioned customer
centric and being dialed in on helping your consumer through
this time. But it really requires a lot of hard work,
a lot of empathy to really understand the situation that
they're in right now.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
John, do you think that applies across all categories, because
you know, maybe I want my financial services provider to care.
The best way you can care is maybe by not
charging me excessive fees.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Or lower your rate. There's a lot of things that
you could do.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
I don't know if I want my Toila paper or
some of my CpG products to really care.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
But maybe I'm wrong.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
I mean, like, is there a spectrum in terms of
what really does it mean for a brand to care?
Speaker 4 (19:45):
I think that's right. I think it starts with what
your core values are in your brand, and I think
you can actually transcend categories. I mean, it's really interesting
to see how really stayed traditional categories like insurance became
sort of you know, new frontiers for sort of building emotion.
It goes back to sort of where Americans are, especially
(20:07):
young people, you know gen Z. One of the things
they're doing now, Steven is spending splurging. I don't know
if you, guys Mercy, if you've seen that in your business,
but two thirds told us that they will go into
product categories and service categories and skimp in places that
aren't important to them to your point, and then they'll
go in and surgically really dial up. What I think
is fascinating about that is who's your luxury consumer today.
(20:30):
Your luxury consumer could be a young gen Z woman
who's completely dialed into mascara and lipstick and is going
to spend whatever to get whatever they want and maybe
look at something else in a different place to kind
of cut back.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
I mean, my personal belief is, and this is one
of the most fundamental things I believe as a marketer,
is everything we do ladders to getting people to feel
like you've answered a value proposition for them. You've made
something feel worth it, which has so many more dimensions
than price, but price is definitely a dimension of that.
(21:04):
So I agree. In fact, you're reminding me of my
old I guess ultimate boss, someone I consider mentor. Leonard
Lauter famously coined this, I don't even know how many
years ago, during an economic downturn. He called it the
lipstick effect. And his point was, and this is exactly
what you're saying about scrimp and splurge, is that women
(21:28):
would still cut back on it, they still need to
treat themselves to like a great lipstick. So that was
a little bit of the thought of how you mitigate
an economic downturn in a more luxury category. But it
still means people have less and they can spend less
in total. And if you're in a mass business, chances
are you're feeling that. I think that's reflected. And I
(21:48):
mean Walmart's been on such a streak, but as fortune
one for them to say it's not going to look
so good the rest of the year, I think that
gives all of us who are in the business of
selling to the majority of Americans some real pause. So
I mean, I don't know, give us some optimism here. Well, yeah,
I was just so negative.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
A very optimistic point is what consumers are telling us
about is related to the spending and we kind of
have sort of talked about this is the Daring twenties.
We think the back half of the decade is going
to actually be really focused on optimism. One of the
things that people told us was that they were going
to be strategically searching for joy. Joy was really the focus,
(22:31):
and joy manifests itself in so many individual personal ways,
relating with your family and your friends and doing things yourself.
And I think that's a really important lesson again for
a marketer to be thinking. You know, just look at
some of the amazing campaigns, you know, the New Gap
campaign with Parker Posey, you know, fascinating, right, but I mean,
(22:51):
you know, just finding whatever those things are to sort
of remind ourselves that life goes on and we may
not agree with our politics all these other things, but
it has been really difficult five years for a lot
of people, and we're seeing people say, okay, well we're
going to flip the script on this and we're going
to find ways to sort of be happy despite the challenges.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
So so John, to build on that, maybe a question
in two parts. One, you know, part of my thesis
as we really see AI permeate every aspect of society.
And again AI is just the automation of automation. It
is going to truly once you see agents widespread, every
consumer will have an agent. It will obviously free up
(23:35):
lots of time, but you know, the bar is going
to be so much higher for a consumer to actually
come out and engage and do something. And so I
think there's going to be this premium on in real
life experiences and back to joy if everything can actually
be sorted, handled, automated, but I'm going to actually show
(23:57):
up because that is what.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
I'm going to put so much value on.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Do you think that is congruent with kind of the
research that you see, the polling that you see, and
what does that really kind of manifest for the way
brand should be showing up for in real life experiences?
Speaker 4 (24:13):
Absolutely, Steve. I think it's a great point. I like
an AI right now in the consumer language, as Kindling would.
AI is just really helpful at helping you reduce tasks,
get ideas started, be more efficient, and if that then
can translate to the time that I can save so
I can go be with my friends and pursue joy.
(24:35):
We just did a really interesting poll with Jonathan hate,
the author of The Anxious Generation. He's amazing, and it
was really interesting. It was a poll of gen Z
and fifty percent of gen Z wished social media didn't exist, right,
And they then went on to talk about the ways
Stephen that they're moving into trying to detox, you know,
(24:57):
to sort of limit time constraints on those platforms because.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
This generation they've been the guinea pigs, you know. Unfortunately
they've had to you know, learn all these things and
go through it with you know, kind of no you know,
no precedent really, and so they've been our petriot dish.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
I think that is interesting because I remember you sharing
that statistic. It really stuck with me. If I recall correctly,
you kind of connected it to this theme that you
called hands on happiness. Tell me if I'm getting the
stat right. It's a Harris Poll stat Yeah, seventy nine
percent of gen z say it's a goal to be
able to interact more in the real world. I find
(25:33):
that actually hopeful and interesting and exciting. And then connecting
it back, I guess to what is a I mean,
it's I think we're all getting the right conclusion, which is,
if it's used to get rid of the monotonous task
that no one wants to do, then does it free
me up to spend a day actually back in the
mall shopping or of course, you know, going to a
(25:53):
restaurant and sitting around with with friends, Like is that
the hopeful implication of this? And what does it mean
for marketers?
Speaker 4 (26:01):
Now?
Speaker 1 (26:02):
What should we do about that? Now?
Speaker 4 (26:03):
Yeah, I mean facilitate those escapes and help your people,
your consumers go and do what they want to do.
You know, we had another statistically be Rodney might partner
our cso I know, you guys both know we shared
some data at some conferences recently. But one of the
things that she found last summer was this trend around
(26:24):
quiet vacationing where millennials and gen Z employees were just
taking off.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
We're not quietly quitting, just quiet vacation.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Exactly what does that mean?
Speaker 4 (26:34):
Things like checking your laptop and moving it around so
that you can kind of make it look like you're
working kind of when you're not a whole bunch of
interesting statistics, but there was a really sizeable group of
people that were doing this, and part of it was
because they didn't know if it was permissible for them
to be gone. And so, you know, the hybrid the
(26:55):
relationships with managers, you know, has really become free. I
think since COVID.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Obviously with all the return to office mandates. You know,
you heard Jamie Diamonds rant and yeah, and look, I'm conflicted,
right because obviously, if you could do the work, you know,
kind of remotely great, but obviously there's so much value
being connected to people, right, and especially if you're younger
and you want to learn.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
Definitely and positively, we are seeing that in our gen
Z data now that gen Z workers really actually want
to be in the office at least two days a week.
It's better. It was about half a day six months ago.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
But you know, double cooking on that for a second.
Back to these knock on effects. You know, we've heard
all of these reports about how, you know, kind of
younger consumers just aren't drinking and so they could be
quiet vacationing. You know, they want to have these in
real life experiences. They want to get off social media
and be together, but they're not drinking, and that is
obviously so debilitating to like all of you know, the
(27:54):
spirits brands and you know wine, and you see the
rise of things like liquid death I mean really just
water in a can.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
But go figure, like it just looks cool.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
So you have a thought on that, I mean, like,
how does that kind of factor into all the stuff
that you're seeing.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
Definitely there's some brand switching going on there right in
terms of gummies and other things cannabis. But back to
the point we've been discussing around in real life is
trying to make sure you maximize moments. Sort of part
of the sober curious movement in this group is the
ability to get out and to really do things and
not be sort of hampered by them. So we've kind
(28:28):
of seen that a lot of maxing trends in our data,
where it's the maxings related to the sobriety. The other
really fascinating thing I think we've talked about before, but
what our data showed that GLP one drugs have done
for Americans. They've been remarkable, Like they've actually started to
elicit hope in behavior change in other ways, so people
(28:50):
started to feel better about themselves. It's changed the resale market,
but it's also started to change the way people feel
about themselves. And it's curbing gambling, alcohol, other forms of addiction.
As you sort of move on this trend toward betterment,
and again, I think that's a really hopeful thing.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Well, on that hopeful note, we're going to be right
back and we're going to play Cooler Cringe with John, and.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
We're back with John and we're going to talk about
things that are cool or cringe John, So hopefully you're
ready for this lightning round sometimes it doesn't really end up.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Very lightning, but let's kick it off.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
So, John, I forever have never understood the demoing of audiences,
especially our favorite traditional media target of adults eighteen to
forty nine, because what the fuck does an eighteen year
old have in common with a forty nine year old?
Speaker 1 (29:49):
And what happens at fifty for those of us who
might be at that.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
And we're out of the core demo. But John, is
that cool or cringe that does traditional demo?
Speaker 4 (29:59):
Total crinch? And I was having a really great exchange
with Chris Hayes from New Balance the other day because
New Balance was number one in our data for gen
Z as one of gen Z's top favorite brands, and
I kind of pinged back.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
To campaign Withyo Soccer from Arsenal.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
Exactly football, but I held up my New Balance shoes
to him and I said, yeah, well gen X too,
you know so absolutely, I think the minute you start
to go into side those paradigms, what you're doing is
you're missing untapped audiences, right, You're missing values matches now
that now exists among tribes of people that could be sneakerheads,
(30:37):
and not all sneakerheads are seventeen years old.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I vote cringe on that one too, and I hope
my media agency is listening.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I mean, I think can I be triple cringe to me?
Speaker 3 (30:47):
I don't understand how that's a thing in twenty twenty five,
but anyway.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Well, because it's still there are remnants of that, right,
it's still convenient, It's.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Still dinosaur, but it's sense with a capital dal.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Also, I feel like our recall is I mean, that
was it boomtastic?
Speaker 4 (31:04):
Right?
Speaker 1 (31:04):
The idea of like and you know all getting aside
fifty plus is not what fifty plus was. I remember
my first job in advertising was tailanal and we had
this like easy open cap and we had to market
it for arthritis and the target was fifty plus and
I'm picturing like white haired grannies and grandpa's and I'm like,
oh no, wait, am for sure, Yes.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
Totally boom tastic, absolutely great. Right, discretionary spending power too.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Right, exactly? Okay, you brought this one up earlier in
the conversation, so I'm going to turn it into a
cooler cringe. The rise of buy now, pay later apps.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
As a researcher, I'm going to say, cringe only because
they're being misused by a lot of people that are
potentially struggling. But I can see the cool side of
them for sure, that within responsible usage, they're really effective.
I just think that there's a growing concern over the
mounting credit card debt that we see in our data
(32:04):
and how those platforms are sort of creating difficulty for
a lot of consumers.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Yeah, I mean, I just feel again it ties back
to our inflation conversation earlier. There's just a dearth of
financial education and people don't understand, you know, simple things
like compound interest. I mean, I'm trying to teach that
to my kids actually using the green Light app, which
is amazing any parent listening, you know, like you get
to have all your chores in there and you give
them allowance and just really teaching them about financial education.
(32:32):
But I think it's an absolute cringe. I put it
up there with all of the just you know, kind
of taking all the rules off of sports betting as well.
I feel like all those things are just kind of
in the same category. They're just really you know, trying
to do that dopamine head. So that's a big crine
for me. But you know, a question for you, John
Cool or cringe companies walking away from d E and
(32:54):
I and I will say the words out loud because
I absolutely abhor all of the companies and the people
hiding behind an acronym. I want people to say that
they don't believe in diversity, they don't believe in equity,
and they don't believe in inclusions.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
Yeah. No, total cringe. And the cringe on this that
we could have a whole nother podcast on is the
fact that you know, look, our most recent data shows
that the majority of Americans are actually supportive of DEI. Right,
this has become a highly politicized sort of construct. The
problem has been when you use jargon that became a
(33:28):
dog whistle, right, so DEI ESG. These became things that
people just started to sort into their own brains politically, Well,
what side am I supposed to be on on this?
Is it a red or blue? And I got to
get into my camp. But the reality is that seventy
five percent of Americans think that diversity is important aspect
of performance in American companies and they connect it to innovation.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Too, right, think about the Apple costco.
Speaker 4 (33:53):
Yeah, I just think when you bend a knee to
your values, then you create brand inconsists and see right,
and that is probably even more dangerous to a brand
that I believed in This brand, I knew where they were,
and suddenly they've walked back something that I thought was
part of what I believe them to be. So then really,
what are they are giving.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Really brands that have dropped the ev interesting or really
walked back I see. I think John, you're hitting where
the rub is is. If consumers feel betrayed, people feel
the trade, it's different than if it wasn't a part
of your value system to begin with. You know, okay,
but if you made it a big part of your
value system in twenty twenty and now you're like just kidding,
(34:38):
that's tougher. I think.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
The problem with DEI in general is that consumers also
see it as sort of I'll say what they say.
Seventy two percent of Americans think that when marketers speak
out on social issues, it's a marketing employee, so like,
don't say it, be it, like go do it, just
(35:01):
do it.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah, all right, that was one. You're right, we could
have done a whole episode on that, and who knows,
we might. I'll lighten it up a little bit. Since
we're talking shopping, we're talking consumers. Cool or cringe. TikTok
made me buy it, TikTok shop.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
Oh very cool?
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Or our postman or from that band was a day.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
It's very cool. I mean, all our data shows to
just how incredibly important TikTok is for shopping and how
many particularly gen Z that's their network, that's how they.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Buy double clicking into that. Is there any concern with China?
Is there any concern about the security? Like does that
just not factor in anymore?
Speaker 4 (35:41):
It's kind of what we've seen, you know, over the
decades with our data on data privacy, Like if there's
a consumer benefit, we don't seem to care.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
That's just bananas.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
But value proposition, that's what I take it back, is
worth it to me because it's convenient, it's fun, it's affordable.
All right, exactly, everyone's got my data at this point.
What's one more country?
Speaker 4 (36:01):
You know.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
I'm not saying that's my personal belief, but maybe sometimes
it is right?
Speaker 2 (36:05):
All right? John, last cool?
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Cringe polling cool or cringe?
Speaker 4 (36:12):
Come on, well, no, I'll go cringe because there's a
lot of bad there's a lot of bad pulling. Grave,
there's a lot of bad polling.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Yeah, pulling just to be foul.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
Sure, we're trying to be umpires. We're trying to look
at things really fairly and objectively. Really proud of that
we think about ourselves as journalists. But if you think
about polling, it's been so misused. There's so many kind
of shoddy outfits out there that I'll go looking for
a solution and then create a pull for it, and
anybody can do that with research. So it's just a
(36:46):
shot on the cross about of our industry to be better.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
That's a beautiful note to end on. It shows why
we were so excited to have you your insights, which
are credible and interesting and insightful. So thank you so
much for joining us.
Speaker 4 (37:00):
Thank you both. It's so great to see you again.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Don We're huge fans, and just please keep up with
the great work. We need good pulling out there, because
Lord knows we need lots more signal with all this
noise out there.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
And for the record, you think the Harris Poll is cool.
Speaker 4 (37:16):
Thank you guys. Have a great one.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
And now it's time for what's on your mind? And
so our question this episode comes from Julie.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Hi, Julie.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
Juli had some nice things to say about each of us.
We're not going to read it because it sounds a
little bit too much, but we appreciate, you know, the
kind words. But she did highlight how, you know, Marissa,
you've done you know, kind of all these incredible trying
it on in your career with you know, different strategy
concepts to elevate brands, you know, ways that other folks haven't.
(37:48):
And July mentioned a lot of my focus on building brands.
You know that are you know, kind of either B to.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
B in tech?
Speaker 3 (37:55):
And she asks, how do the two of you square
this circle? How should your listeners plan their careers? What
are the skills they need? And where are we headed?
And that sounds like a very big I know, that
sounds like a very big existential you know meati question.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
I've heard three questions there. Let's pick apart one part
of that to go for Julie, what do you think
how do we square this circle? How should our listeners
plan their career as well? I wish I had the
answer to that one well.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
By zoom out.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
I think what Julia is getting at is that there
is no straight line when it comes to a career,
for sure, and I think there.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Is a through line.
Speaker 3 (38:36):
And so if you look at my through line, I
would say ever since I started in investment, banking, private equity,
I was focused on technology and so being a technology,
media and telecom analyst in those early days at Blackstone's
Almostmith Barney, all the way up to what I'm doing
now with my own company, the through line has been technology.
(38:56):
And there's been various iterations and derivatives of that being
applied to different industries and categories, but that has been
the through line, and I think it really is a
passion of something, you know, back to what we have
discussed in previous pods around your Ichy guy, right, like
what truly is your purpose and connecting what you love,
what you're good at, what does the world need, and
(39:17):
what you can get paid for and when you have
that intersection of those four vectors, that really is kind
of what you can do with your life your purpose.
And so I feel like I was always really interested
in technology and kind of applying it and being that
translator between business and tech. I think that's been some
way that I've been able to plan my career but
(39:38):
if the listener is trying to figure out where are
you on the journey, if you're stuck in a job
that you don't like, or if you're working for some
asshole and you know you really don't want to be
there anymore, or if you're kind of stuck in you're
trying to get to the next level, just really trying
to zoom out and understand what your achy guy is
and really trying to figure out what is that through line,
(39:58):
the true connective tissue of all the different things you've
done to date. I feel like that could be helpful
in terms of understanding where is the puck going.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
I really like that. I like the idea of a
through line because what that helps you also maybe think
through and just still is what's changing and what actually
remains a constant, because some things do remain a constant
as fundamental to the business world. So you just shared yours.
I think if I were to say, what's my through line,
(40:28):
it's been being a creative storyteller, but in very sometimes
not even totally visible, strategic ways to create a business result.
That's why it's not just creativity ever for creativity's sake,
but in a commercial context, So for me, that's an
interesting way of thinking about Like that isn't going to
(40:48):
go away. To me, that's fundamental. The tools of how
we do it are the things that are constantly changing.
So how do you figure out how to stay true
like grounded and if that's your fundamental strength or place
it with whatever it is, what's your fundamental strength? But
then how do you stay courageous and curious about the
(41:09):
parts that are changing so you can adapt and stay relevant.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
That's done to me.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
I feel like there's a lot of parallels, and this
is part of the reason why we get along so well,
and I just have so much respect for you. But
you have always focused on creativity as a means to
an end, not the end in of itself, and the
end has always been about business results. And I could
say the same thing about technology, right, like technology is
not the end. AI is not the end. It's a
(41:36):
means to an end, right, and the end is about
you know. That's why you know my company is called Alpha, right,
it's about unlocking alpha. You know, the financial definition of
having a return that's above the mean, like understanding that
all these things have to be in service of business.
And I think whatever it is that you know someone
is doing, you know, working away on just trying to
understand how that actually is put in context. And I
(41:59):
remember I was talking about soone. It doesn't matter what
you call the title, you know, because a lot of
folks they get attracted to strategy roles or you know,
innovation roles. It's like, no, everyone should be strategic, everyone
should be innovative. But you really can make it very simple,
and you just look at a P and L write
(42:19):
a profit and law statement, an income statement and one.
If you're unfamiliar with some of those financial terms, that's
obviously something that you have to educate yourself about again
financial literacy, it's a theme for this week's pot But
understanding every single function on that income statement is tied
to a role. So your revenue is sales, you know
(42:40):
your costs. You know, well, maybe that's your product. And
then you know kind of your SG and A you're
selling general and administrative expenses. That is effectively your marketing,
your R and D. And then you know your GNA
is kind of like your legal you know your HR,
you know your other you know kind of administrative functions.
So it really comes down to the functions in the
(43:02):
c suite revenue, marketing, product, R and D, technology, finance,
legal people, right, and again the CEO really doesn't have
kind of like what is you know, if you're a
chief marketing officer, I know what you do. If you're
a chief technology officer, I know what you do. If
you're a chief executive officer, I don't know what you do.
(43:23):
You just basically manage the other executives.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
Right.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
You're obviously there to be the leader and vision and whatever,
but understand that each of those functions play a role,
and any listener, like, whatever you do in your career,
it has to fall into one of those functions that
maps back to an income statement.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
That's great. That is a good way of thinking about it.
It's very simple, but it's very accurate, and it doesn't
matter what industry it applies to. You could just break
it down that way. I'll just add that I love
that my title is now chief customer a marketing officer
because I think sometimes what does get lost? And this
is a nice way of maybe tying this all back
(44:01):
to the conversation we had with John in this episode
is sometimes you wind up in boardrooms just debating the
P and L or debating, you know, should this dollar
go here, and you forget that the end of the day,
we all are in service to people who are our
customers or who we want to be our customers. For me,
(44:21):
that's just the kind of get it out of the
conceptual or just the financial and make it we all
have to think about the real world. And that's what
I loved about why we did this conversation with John
today is if you lose touch with how people are
feeling and thinking, and they're hurting and they're worried and
they're excited, and you aren't thinking about how that applies.
(44:43):
I don't care what role you have, although I love
having maybe paramount accountability for it. At is a shared
responsibility of every leader and that is not something that
will change as a responsibility of leaders in business, even
though as we said, the tools of the trade are
constantly changing and you are at the forefront of teaching
(45:03):
boards and others, at least from a AI technology standpoint.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
How but you're saying it's spot on. It has to
be again back to the end result. It has to
be about the customer, right, like why are you in business?
A for profit business? It has to be about getting
a customer or keeping a customer and all those functions
you know, need to be in service of that, and
sometimes you know, people forget you know, maybe you know,
the CTO isn't always thinking about the customer because they
(45:27):
get an amateur technology, or the chief financial officer is
not thinking about the customer because they're focused on, you know,
the numbers. I mean, you have to understand what it
is that you're trying to do. And again, Joey, thank
you for obviously a very important.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Question that we could actually have a whole another pot it.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
Maybe we should kind of do a whole episode around,
you know, kind of career advice because I feel like
we get a lot of these questions.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
Marisa.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
It can actually be a lot of fun because you know,
we're at a moment whereas existentially tasks are going to
be automated, and you know, what is going to be
the function, what is going.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
To be the role?
Speaker 3 (46:00):
How do you actually stay ahead? That actually be something
that could be a pretty cool topic.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
Well, I think that's a great idea, and people remember
it's still all about the people. So how's that And
that's it for now. Thanks so much for joining us.
Don't forget to subscribe, and we really do love your questions,
so Julie great one. Tell us what's on your minds
by emailing us at ideas at brandishnew dot com, or
(46:27):
just drop us a message on any of our social channels,
and thanks so much. We'll see you next time on
brand New
Well, hello, and thanks for joining us on brand New
from the iHeart Podcast Network and Brand New Labs. I'm
Marissa Thalberg and.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I'm Steven wolf Dada.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
Oh it's good to be home for at least a
few hours, Marissa, because I've been traveling like a madman.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
You are in true founder mode. I'm starting to think
of my house as my weekend house, even though it's
just my house.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So it's like a Delta flight your weekday house American.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Because I live in Charlotte, which is a major hub.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
I'm loyal to our friend Alicia Tillman of Delta, so
all Delta all the way.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Yeah, this is not about a marketing relationship for me.
This is about hubs where all my I mean, I'm
just waiting to be concierge.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
Key.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I don't know why I'm not already. I'm flying literally
every week, but at least I'm executive Platinum, so that's there.
You go something.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
It's all about the status.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
It's crazy how we define ourselves with our staff.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
It's so true.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
It's such a thing. You've been traveling a lot too.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I've been traveling almost every week, actually every week, every
week since the start of the year primarily now to
my two office locations, Dallas and also New York. So
New York's great because of course I'm from there, and
I get to squeeze in a visit with Hannah whenever possible, and.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
You get to see your daughter.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
I get to see my daughter. So that makes sense
for me in terms of, you know, balancing being an
executive mom. And even though she's an adult. It's great
when your kids grow up and they still really want
to be with you. And actually it was so nice
because for the first time since September, David and I
got to go to see Avery at at Chapel Hill
University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, go to our heels.
(01:46):
In fact, we went to our first basketball game and
saw them win. So that was really exciting. Yeah, it's
like I was just talking about this with a friend yesterday.
It's like when all said and down as a parent,
when your kids are good good.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Yeah, honestly, like I'm going to get all of the
parenting pointers from you, you know, because, as most of
our listeners know, my kids are younger and so you know,
being on the road, you know, similar to you, I'm
going a lot to either New York my hometown San
Francisco obviously, because you know, all the tech community is there,
and you know, it's just so hard being away from
(02:20):
the kids because.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
I want to be there, feel you.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
You know, Sana seven and she's doing musical theater, which
we've discussed, and you know you're going to give her
lots of pointers.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
I'm a very proud aunt.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
You are a proud pa.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
And and you know in Seventhion is obviously playing club
soccer and proud Papa moment last night because we're recording
the weekends because we're on the road during the week
so last night seventh Jon was actually a player escort.
He was one of the ball boys, effectively walking out
on the pitch with Los Angeles Football Club LAFC. So
(02:55):
that was pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Oh that is so what a thrill. I mean, he's
such of a rising star athlete. He must have just
been beside himself.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
I mean it's funny, right, Like, I don't want to
put any pressure on him. I just want him to
have fun I mean, he legit has athletic talent. I
don't I think it's skipped the generation because my dad
was athletic. But I always like to say. You know,
I'm a professional business athlete. You know, I'll kind of
outperform anyone in business. But now, but he loves the game.
And it's just to your point. If our kids are good,
you know we're good, but being on the road and
(03:26):
you know we have a lot of travel coming up again.
I'm on the red eye tonight. We have our big
Alpha board forum this week in New York, so I'm
back there.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
It's going to be amazing and I can't wait to
talk about the learnings from it if you're willing.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Oh absolutely, I just feel this responsibility. Everyone really needs
to kind of learn upskill. It's you know, there was
a great LinkedIn post by a professor at NYU who
does a lot of you know, kind of talking about
AI and you know his name is Connor Grennan, and
he gave this great example about the thigh Master effect
and how everyone bought thigh Master. I know we're probably
(04:02):
dating ourselves, you know, for all of you younger lessers,
google what a thigh master is. You know kind of absolutely,
but like ten million units were sold and what happened.
It just stayed in the closet, no one used it,
but everyone bought it. And I feel like that's kind
of like this moment that we're in right now, where
like everyone's talking about AI, everyone's you know, maybe buying
(04:25):
some licenses, but no one's using it. It hasn't transformed
human behavior. And I just feel like that is just
across every kind of category, so many different things, you know,
trying to change human behavior, whether it's trying to get
shoppers to go to you know, your brands, trying to
get people to upscale, trying to eat healthy, or trying
to get my kids to clean their room, whatever it is,
(04:47):
changing human behavior is probably one of the hardest things.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
That's definitely true, you know, And we're all running at
such a pace too that on the one hand, the
promise all that is to make our lives easier, but
it's hard, you know, if you're not living it the
way you are, can be hard to figure out exactly.
For me, it's like the question is beyond chat GPT,
what does it mean to incorporate it in daily life
(05:12):
for the general public for.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Sure, But speaking of changing human behavior, I'm thrilled for
our podcast guest who is a friend of the pod.
Do you want to tell us a little bit about
John of course.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, Well, you know, this just shows how you and
I can manifest, right, so we I think during our
end of our last episode, we're like, oh, Harris Pool,
John Gerzma, he'd be a great guest in Boom. We
made it happen. So John Grozmo, who's CEO of Harris Pool,
is coming on. He's also a New York Times bestselling
author as well as CEO of Harris Pool, and I
(05:49):
just can't wait to bring him into the conversation because
it's interesting when you think about everything we've been through
in just the last half decade, not even in segments
of ten, segments of five, think about this.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
I thought we were just going to talk about the
past two months. I'm still my head's still spinning.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Well, I was trying to pull back the aperture just
a tiny bit more. You're right, I mean just the
past two months. I think we're all feeling that, But
just the last half decade. Let's think about this, global pandemics, wars, inflation, wildfires, floods,
of course, politics.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
And you're just talking about California. I'm just curious, Oh
too soon, soon, really too soon.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
But I mean what's interesting is consumer spending has been
a constant, which you don't think about it that way.
It's true. It doesn't mean it's been consistently the same,
but it's been a constant and there is no one
better at helping decode how Americans are really thinking and
feeling than him. So I mean, perfect time to get
(06:47):
into it with You're right, last two months, last five years.
So when we come back, we're gonna bring John on. Okay,
we're back and delighted to have John Garizma joining us.
As mentioned, John is the CEO of the Harris Pole
and if you don't know the Harris Poll, which is
(07:07):
highly doubtful, it's been tracking the sentiment, behaviors, and motivations
of Americans for over sixty years. So this is going
to be juicy.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
Hi John, Ay, Marissa, how are you hasty?
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Great to have you John.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
So it's kind of feeling like a year has already
happened in two months, and for all of us in
the world of brands, keeping a finger on the pulse
is always so critical in terms of how people are feeling.
So we're really excited to have you help us get
underneath that. And you know, we were talking a little
before I know you said that in spite of everything,
Americans have kind of adapted the British slogan of keep
(07:42):
calm and carry on and to keep calm and carry
on shopping. And you know, look, I'm in retail now,
so this is a poignant one for me. And you
look at what retailers are reporting, even Walmart. Walmart issuing
more cautious guidance for the rest of the year. So
let's go right there. What do you think are American
consumer is going to keep calm and carry on shopping?
Speaker 4 (08:05):
Please?
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Like, what is the state of consumer sentiment and confidence
right now?
Speaker 4 (08:09):
You know, Marissa, it's interesting. We have tracked weekly consumer
sentiment since COVID at a tracker that we called the
America This Week Tracker, and we had anxiety for the
last five years at roughly about eighty percent. But if
you look at that at the same time, you know,
after we went through COVID and we kind of then
went in through this whole period of inflation, the consumer
(08:32):
was really durable. Right. The consumer spending, which represents seventy
percent of American GDP kind of just kept right along cranking.
So we've got some cautious numbers and we continue to
sort of see that sense with Americans. But I think
it's important to think about how much people suffered during
COVID and during the inflation. And I always am fond
(08:55):
of thinking about inflation has lost choice and so when
you have higher prices, there's things you don't get to do.
You don't get to go to Applebee's, you don't get
to go to the theater, you don't get to go
to restaurants, all those kinds of things. Right, So I
think we're seeing signs of sort of concern in our data.
Fifty percent of Americans and our data are using buy now,
(09:17):
pay later. Of those people you know, are really struggling.
A really interesting statistic from last week forty percent of
Americans think that foreign countries pay for terriffs, right, So
they haven't factored maybe that into the things. So there's
a lot, a lot to kind of unpack.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Oh yeah, wow, John, I remember hearing or reading somewhere
that the day after the presidential election election night, a
top trending Google question was what are tariffs? I'm like, God,
that would have been a good question asked the day
before the election.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Totally, Well, we don't have debates anymore? Right, John?
Speaker 3 (09:55):
So, I mean, how would people even know about that stuff?
I mean, I study economics, you know, an undergrad. Being Latino,
you deal with not just inflation. You know, we've dealt
with hyper inflation all throughout Latin America. So this is
something that is certainly near and dear. But I don't
think people understand, you know, kind of the environment and
what it truly means. Can you just break it down
(10:17):
in Layman's terms, right, Like, why is inflation such a
concern not just from a consumer perspective, but also from
a brand perspective from the companies in terms of their
products and services.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
Yeah, you know, Steven answered that question back in May.
We ran a poll with The Guardian, and you got
to remember, at this moment, inflation was still really high,
but economic recovery was really strong. But we did a
pop quiz with Americans and we asked them if we
were in a recession or not, which clearly weren't. The
majority of Americans thought we were in a recession at
(10:50):
fifty six percent. Fifty five percent thought the economy was
shrinking when it was growing, and forty nine percent said
the S and P was down and percense that unemployment
was in an all time high, right, an all time low.
What was so interesting in the data was inflation just
became such a micro issue for Americans that even why
(11:11):
Biden was running on a strong economy, our data was saying,
people don't believe it.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
This goes back to the vibes that you were talking about, right,
I mean, just to you know, kind of really demensionalize this.
Inflation is truly seeing the sustain increase in prices across
the economy, which results in a decline in your purchasing power,
and so understanding all of the second and third order
effects of reduced purchasing power, you know, you know, it
increases your cost of living, you know, obviously it's a
(11:37):
redistribution of wealth. You know, obviously results in higher interest rates,
and so there's this whole impact on wages. And it's
so funny because you hear so many people throughout COVID,
you know, either say it was absolutely the most difficult
period of their life, or you talk to people that
are usually more well off and literally it was the
best time of their life. And I think that is
(11:58):
shining a light on the income in equality that we
see in this country and we're not going to play
the buzzword bingo and you know, mentioned AI at every
single turn. But I know, but just understanding all the
pressures that we're going to see from increased inequality, Understanding
you know, kind of the impact of what is to come.
(12:21):
I'm just so curious, like, how do you see you know,
this idea of the vibes because people are just so
ignorant to these issues and the fact that the economy
was growing but they didn't feel it. That feel is
really important, and you know, I think a lot of
people think that the feel is going to get even
worse going forward.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
Yeah. I couldn't agree more. I mean, we run a
monthly poll called Axios Vibes with Axios, which is designed
to really get in and understand those feelings. And in January,
we have this data that said that fifty nine percent
of Americans said they were triggered by going to the.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Grocery store in January.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
Right, So it's triggered.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
Yes, But this is why it's so important to go
to real America. What we try to do, you know,
is if you're thinking about a market research project, you're
really focused on your brand, You're focused on your issues, Right,
you want to get to a creative brief or whatever
your brand challenges. What polling does is just step back
and look at real life and look at the life
(13:19):
of people around your brand. And so if you're getting
in there and really understanding kitchen table issues, you're seeing
how just tremendously difficult it is for the majority of Americans. Right,
So I think that's what becomes so important. I mean,
we had this really fascinating study that we ran last
year that found that granny's were the hidden driver of
(13:42):
economic recovery, and we were like, wait, what And what
ended up happening was we talked to working parents and
sixty seven percent of working parents in America told us
they probably wouldn't have been able to sustain their job
or keep a second job if they didn't have somebody
(14:03):
at home. They didn't have mom, mother in law at
home to help out.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
So and by the way, like, my family's one of them,
if it wasn't for my wife and Aria's mom, like,
we wouldn't be able to do what we do.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
Absolutely, But that's the kind of stuff where I was
looking for is like, how does the world impact around
your brand? So you have the consumer and their numbers
and you're spending, But what's their life really like? Is
the question?
Speaker 1 (14:24):
John? How has that changed in the past couple of
months though? So, I mean I was interested January in
terms of because January is a little before and after
from a political standpoint, and we're not trying to go
there per se, really just through the lens of So
what's happening now with a consumer? I mean, February was
a tough month in retail, So I don't actually feel
(14:47):
very surprised hearing your grocery store finding untriggered because all
of that hullabaloo about the price of eggs and now
in some grocery stores you can't even find eggs. But
beyond the eggs, the.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Eggs, I'm okay, I like eggs.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Well, what's going on in terms of how you are
seeing if you are, is it just a consistent like
people have just been anxious and it's continuing and the
vibe thing that Stephen was bringing up, or has something
changed over the past two months.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
I think Americans are still in a wait and see mode.
You still have fifty one percent of Americans saying the
economies on the wrong track. Interesting Republicans flip, which they
do every time. Democrats are now negative and Republicans are
now positive. But when you get out of that political
part of it, you just ask people questions about back
to Steven's question around inflation, it's killing them, it's really
(15:39):
hurting them. But this is a really big thing.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Guys.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
We've always seen consumers and Americans blame government who was
ever in office for these issues, but now they're starting
to blame business. And we ran our reputation survey that
we do with axios every year, and seventy one percent
of corporate reputations went down last year and it was
directly tied to the consumer perceiving that businesses were passing
(16:05):
along costs right and they were pocketing profits.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
And that's before terrs.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
Yeah, well this is a misalignment. And so just a
question Mercy, we asked last month, we said, who do
you blame for your personal financial situation? Among people who
felt stuck or falling behind, and thirty eight percent blame
businesses for their prices, versus thirty percent for government and
(16:31):
their policies, versus another thirty percent or so for themselves
and their own behavior. So I think it's kind of
an interesting challenge right now, and it's really tough. I'd
love to hear your guys' viewpoints as business leaders, but
to be running brands and running a business right now
with this the public, I mean something that's definitely changing.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
I'll say. And I'm hoping to pick your brain on
behalf of our listeners and myself and ourselves in terms
of how do you make that tighter connection right now
with a price stressed consumer, because it is that, And
I'll tell you just really briefly. For me, I had
such an interesting epiphany moment in my career when I
went from luxury beauty to Taco Bell, because you know,
(17:14):
I went from essentially a higher income customer to everyone
and I loved that, and I've loved that ever since.
I've loved really thinking about how you make average American
consumers and I don't mean average in a derogatory way,
feel good about their choices, not feel compromised. That continues
(17:36):
to be such an interesting, motivating part of what I do.
But it's not easy. It's really not easy because we
have a world of choices and limited means for many Americans,
and you can really be on the coasts and maybe
not feel that the same way, or be in business
and not live it day to day. So what's your
(17:59):
lefe from being so finger on the pulse of how
what is working with people? What's working with the connection
between marketers and business leaders and regular working American consumers
to make them feel okay to shop?
Speaker 4 (18:16):
A couple of things. I think one is about brand
empathy and pointing back to our data, but two thirds
of Americans told us this was in December, that they
would spend more on brands that they felt really cared
about them. And I think that's where this comes to
this point. I mean, some of this stuff seems so
basic in old fashioned, but I think the public feels misaligned,
(18:37):
misaligned by business leaders, by politicians, and now by their brands.
And not that we have to get into all the
brand and politics stuff on this, but I think that's
a distraction for consumers. They really want brands to focus
on them. And so fifty five percent also said that
they would spend more on brands that they felt really
cared about them. So getting back to those values values,
(19:00):
whatever those brand values are, and being old fashioned customer
centric and being dialed in on helping your consumer through
this time. But it really requires a lot of hard work,
a lot of empathy to really understand the situation that
they're in right now.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
John, do you think that applies across all categories, because
you know, maybe I want my financial services provider to care.
The best way you can care is maybe by not
charging me excessive fees.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Or lower your rate. There's a lot of things that
you could do.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
I don't know if I want my Toila paper or
some of my CpG products to really care.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
But maybe I'm wrong.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
I mean, like, is there a spectrum in terms of
what really does it mean for a brand to care?
Speaker 4 (19:45):
I think that's right. I think it starts with what
your core values are in your brand, and I think
you can actually transcend categories. I mean, it's really interesting
to see how really stayed traditional categories like insurance became
sort of you know, new frontiers for sort of building emotion.
It goes back to sort of where Americans are, especially
(20:07):
young people, you know gen Z. One of the things
they're doing now, Steven is spending splurging. I don't know
if you, guys Mercy, if you've seen that in your business,
but two thirds told us that they will go into
product categories and service categories and skimp in places that
aren't important to them to your point, and then they'll
go in and surgically really dial up. What I think
is fascinating about that is who's your luxury consumer today.
(20:30):
Your luxury consumer could be a young gen Z woman
who's completely dialed into mascara and lipstick and is going
to spend whatever to get whatever they want and maybe
look at something else in a different place to kind
of cut back.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
I mean, my personal belief is, and this is one
of the most fundamental things I believe as a marketer,
is everything we do ladders to getting people to feel
like you've answered a value proposition for them. You've made
something feel worth it, which has so many more dimensions
than price, but price is definitely a dimension of that.
(21:04):
So I agree. In fact, you're reminding me of my
old I guess ultimate boss, someone I consider mentor. Leonard
Lauter famously coined this, I don't even know how many
years ago, during an economic downturn. He called it the
lipstick effect. And his point was, and this is exactly
what you're saying about scrimp and splurge, is that women
(21:28):
would still cut back on it, they still need to
treat themselves to like a great lipstick. So that was
a little bit of the thought of how you mitigate
an economic downturn in a more luxury category. But it
still means people have less and they can spend less
in total. And if you're in a mass business, chances
are you're feeling that. I think that's reflected. And I
(21:48):
mean Walmart's been on such a streak, but as fortune
one for them to say it's not going to look
so good the rest of the year, I think that
gives all of us who are in the business of
selling to the majority of Americans some real pause. So
I mean, I don't know, give us some optimism here. Well, yeah,
I was just so negative.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
A very optimistic point is what consumers are telling us
about is related to the spending and we kind of
have sort of talked about this is the Daring twenties.
We think the back half of the decade is going
to actually be really focused on optimism. One of the
things that people told us was that they were going
to be strategically searching for joy. Joy was really the focus,
(22:31):
and joy manifests itself in so many individual personal ways,
relating with your family and your friends and doing things yourself.
And I think that's a really important lesson again for
a marketer to be thinking. You know, just look at
some of the amazing campaigns, you know, the New Gap
campaign with Parker Posey, you know, fascinating, right, but I mean,
(22:51):
you know, just finding whatever those things are to sort
of remind ourselves that life goes on and we may
not agree with our politics all these other things, but
it has been really difficult five years for a lot
of people, and we're seeing people say, okay, well we're
going to flip the script on this and we're going
to find ways to sort of be happy despite the challenges.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
So so John, to build on that, maybe a question
in two parts. One, you know, part of my thesis
as we really see AI permeate every aspect of society.
And again AI is just the automation of automation. It
is going to truly once you see agents widespread, every
consumer will have an agent. It will obviously free up
(23:35):
lots of time, but you know, the bar is going
to be so much higher for a consumer to actually
come out and engage and do something. And so I
think there's going to be this premium on in real
life experiences and back to joy if everything can actually
be sorted, handled, automated, but I'm going to actually show
(23:57):
up because that is what.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
I'm going to put so much value on.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Do you think that is congruent with kind of the
research that you see, the polling that you see, and
what does that really kind of manifest for the way
brand should be showing up for in real life experiences?
Speaker 4 (24:13):
Absolutely, Steve. I think it's a great point. I like
an AI right now in the consumer language, as Kindling would.
AI is just really helpful at helping you reduce tasks,
get ideas started, be more efficient, and if that then
can translate to the time that I can save so
I can go be with my friends and pursue joy.
(24:35):
We just did a really interesting poll with Jonathan hate,
the author of The Anxious Generation. He's amazing, and it
was really interesting. It was a poll of gen Z
and fifty percent of gen Z wished social media didn't exist, right,
And they then went on to talk about the ways
Stephen that they're moving into trying to detox, you know,
(24:57):
to sort of limit time constraints on those platforms because.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
This generation they've been the guinea pigs, you know. Unfortunately
they've had to you know, learn all these things and
go through it with you know, kind of no you know,
no precedent really, and so they've been our petriot dish.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
I think that is interesting because I remember you sharing
that statistic. It really stuck with me. If I recall correctly,
you kind of connected it to this theme that you
called hands on happiness. Tell me if I'm getting the
stat right. It's a Harris Poll stat Yeah, seventy nine
percent of gen z say it's a goal to be
able to interact more in the real world. I find
(25:33):
that actually hopeful and interesting and exciting. And then connecting
it back, I guess to what is a I mean,
it's I think we're all getting the right conclusion, which is,
if it's used to get rid of the monotonous task
that no one wants to do, then does it free
me up to spend a day actually back in the
mall shopping or of course, you know, going to a
(25:53):
restaurant and sitting around with with friends, Like is that
the hopeful implication of this? And what does it mean
for marketers?
Speaker 4 (26:01):
Now?
Speaker 1 (26:02):
What should we do about that? Now?
Speaker 4 (26:03):
Yeah, I mean facilitate those escapes and help your people,
your consumers go and do what they want to do.
You know, we had another statistically be Rodney might partner
our cso I know, you guys both know we shared
some data at some conferences recently. But one of the
things that she found last summer was this trend around
(26:24):
quiet vacationing where millennials and gen Z employees were just
taking off.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
We're not quietly quitting, just quiet vacation.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Exactly what does that mean?
Speaker 4 (26:34):
Things like checking your laptop and moving it around so
that you can kind of make it look like you're
working kind of when you're not a whole bunch of
interesting statistics, but there was a really sizeable group of
people that were doing this, and part of it was
because they didn't know if it was permissible for them
to be gone. And so, you know, the hybrid the
(26:55):
relationships with managers, you know, has really become free. I
think since COVID.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Obviously with all the return to office mandates. You know,
you heard Jamie Diamonds rant and yeah, and look, I'm conflicted,
right because obviously, if you could do the work, you know,
kind of remotely great, but obviously there's so much value
being connected to people, right, and especially if you're younger
and you want to learn.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
Definitely and positively, we are seeing that in our gen
Z data now that gen Z workers really actually want
to be in the office at least two days a week.
It's better. It was about half a day six months ago.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
But you know, double cooking on that for a second.
Back to these knock on effects. You know, we've heard
all of these reports about how, you know, kind of
younger consumers just aren't drinking and so they could be
quiet vacationing. You know, they want to have these in
real life experiences. They want to get off social media
and be together, but they're not drinking, and that is
obviously so debilitating to like all of you know, the
(27:54):
spirits brands and you know wine, and you see the
rise of things like liquid death I mean really just
water in a can.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
But go figure, like it just looks cool.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
So you have a thought on that, I mean, like,
how does that kind of factor into all the stuff
that you're seeing.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
Definitely there's some brand switching going on there right in
terms of gummies and other things cannabis. But back to
the point we've been discussing around in real life is
trying to make sure you maximize moments. Sort of part
of the sober curious movement in this group is the
ability to get out and to really do things and
not be sort of hampered by them. So we've kind
(28:28):
of seen that a lot of maxing trends in our data,
where it's the maxings related to the sobriety. The other
really fascinating thing I think we've talked about before, but
what our data showed that GLP one drugs have done
for Americans. They've been remarkable, Like they've actually started to
elicit hope in behavior change in other ways, so people
(28:50):
started to feel better about themselves. It's changed the resale market,
but it's also started to change the way people feel
about themselves. And it's curbing gambling, alcohol, other forms of addiction.
As you sort of move on this trend toward betterment,
and again, I think that's a really hopeful thing.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Well, on that hopeful note, we're going to be right
back and we're going to play Cooler Cringe with John, and.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
We're back with John and we're going to talk about
things that are cool or cringe John, So hopefully you're
ready for this lightning round sometimes it doesn't really end up.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Very lightning, but let's kick it off.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
So, John, I forever have never understood the demoing of audiences,
especially our favorite traditional media target of adults eighteen to
forty nine, because what the fuck does an eighteen year
old have in common with a forty nine year old?
Speaker 1 (29:49):
And what happens at fifty for those of us who
might be at that.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
And we're out of the core demo. But John, is
that cool or cringe that does traditional demo?
Speaker 4 (29:59):
Total crinch? And I was having a really great exchange
with Chris Hayes from New Balance the other day because
New Balance was number one in our data for gen
Z as one of gen Z's top favorite brands, and
I kind of pinged back.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
To campaign Withyo Soccer from Arsenal.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
Exactly football, but I held up my New Balance shoes
to him and I said, yeah, well gen X too,
you know so absolutely, I think the minute you start
to go into side those paradigms, what you're doing is
you're missing untapped audiences, right, You're missing values matches now
that now exists among tribes of people that could be sneakerheads,
(30:37):
and not all sneakerheads are seventeen years old.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I vote cringe on that one too, and I hope
my media agency is listening.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I mean, I think can I be triple cringe to me?
Speaker 3 (30:47):
I don't understand how that's a thing in twenty twenty five,
but anyway.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Well, because it's still there are remnants of that, right,
it's still convenient, It's.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Still dinosaur, but it's sense with a capital dal.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Also, I feel like our recall is I mean, that
was it boomtastic?
Speaker 4 (31:04):
Right?
Speaker 1 (31:04):
The idea of like and you know all getting aside
fifty plus is not what fifty plus was. I remember
my first job in advertising was tailanal and we had
this like easy open cap and we had to market
it for arthritis and the target was fifty plus and
I'm picturing like white haired grannies and grandpa's and I'm like,
oh no, wait, am for sure, Yes.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
Totally boom tastic, absolutely great. Right, discretionary spending power too.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Right, exactly? Okay, you brought this one up earlier in
the conversation, so I'm going to turn it into a
cooler cringe. The rise of buy now, pay later apps.
Speaker 4 (31:43):
As a researcher, I'm going to say, cringe only because
they're being misused by a lot of people that are
potentially struggling. But I can see the cool side of
them for sure, that within responsible usage, they're really effective.
I just think that there's a growing concern over the
mounting credit card debt that we see in our data
(32:04):
and how those platforms are sort of creating difficulty for
a lot of consumers.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Yeah, I mean, I just feel again it ties back
to our inflation conversation earlier. There's just a dearth of
financial education and people don't understand, you know, simple things
like compound interest. I mean, I'm trying to teach that
to my kids actually using the green Light app, which
is amazing any parent listening, you know, like you get
to have all your chores in there and you give
them allowance and just really teaching them about financial education.
(32:32):
But I think it's an absolute cringe. I put it
up there with all of the just you know, kind
of taking all the rules off of sports betting as well.
I feel like all those things are just kind of
in the same category. They're just really you know, trying
to do that dopamine head. So that's a big crine
for me. But you know, a question for you, John
Cool or cringe companies walking away from d E and
(32:54):
I and I will say the words out loud because
I absolutely abhor all of the companies and the people
hiding behind an acronym. I want people to say that
they don't believe in diversity, they don't believe in equity,
and they don't believe in inclusions.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
Yeah. No, total cringe. And the cringe on this that
we could have a whole nother podcast on is the
fact that you know, look, our most recent data shows
that the majority of Americans are actually supportive of DEI. Right,
this has become a highly politicized sort of construct. The
problem has been when you use jargon that became a
(33:28):
dog whistle, right, so DEI ESG. These became things that
people just started to sort into their own brains politically, Well,
what side am I supposed to be on on this?
Is it a red or blue? And I got to
get into my camp. But the reality is that seventy
five percent of Americans think that diversity is important aspect
of performance in American companies and they connect it to innovation.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Too, right, think about the Apple costco.
Speaker 4 (33:53):
Yeah, I just think when you bend a knee to
your values, then you create brand inconsists and see right,
and that is probably even more dangerous to a brand
that I believed in This brand, I knew where they were,
and suddenly they've walked back something that I thought was
part of what I believe them to be. So then really,
what are they are giving.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Really brands that have dropped the ev interesting or really
walked back I see. I think John, you're hitting where
the rub is is. If consumers feel betrayed, people feel
the trade, it's different than if it wasn't a part
of your value system to begin with. You know, okay,
but if you made it a big part of your
value system in twenty twenty and now you're like just kidding,
(34:38):
that's tougher. I think.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
The problem with DEI in general is that consumers also
see it as sort of I'll say what they say.
Seventy two percent of Americans think that when marketers speak
out on social issues, it's a marketing employee, so like,
don't say it, be it, like go do it, just
(35:01):
do it.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah, all right, that was one. You're right, we could
have done a whole episode on that, and who knows,
we might. I'll lighten it up a little bit. Since
we're talking shopping, we're talking consumers. Cool or cringe. TikTok
made me buy it, TikTok shop.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
Oh very cool?
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Or our postman or from that band was a day.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
It's very cool. I mean, all our data shows to
just how incredibly important TikTok is for shopping and how
many particularly gen Z that's their network, that's how they.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Buy double clicking into that. Is there any concern with China?
Is there any concern about the security? Like does that
just not factor in anymore?
Speaker 4 (35:41):
It's kind of what we've seen, you know, over the
decades with our data on data privacy, Like if there's
a consumer benefit, we don't seem to care.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
That's just bananas.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
But value proposition, that's what I take it back, is
worth it to me because it's convenient, it's fun, it's affordable.
All right, exactly, everyone's got my data at this point.
What's one more country?
Speaker 4 (36:01):
You know.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
I'm not saying that's my personal belief, but maybe sometimes
it is right?
Speaker 2 (36:05):
All right? John, last cool?
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Cringe polling cool or cringe?
Speaker 4 (36:12):
Come on, well, no, I'll go cringe because there's a
lot of bad there's a lot of bad pulling. Grave,
there's a lot of bad polling.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Yeah, pulling just to be foul.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
Sure, we're trying to be umpires. We're trying to look
at things really fairly and objectively. Really proud of that
we think about ourselves as journalists. But if you think
about polling, it's been so misused. There's so many kind
of shoddy outfits out there that I'll go looking for
a solution and then create a pull for it, and
anybody can do that with research. So it's just a
(36:46):
shot on the cross about of our industry to be better.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
That's a beautiful note to end on. It shows why
we were so excited to have you your insights, which
are credible and interesting and insightful. So thank you so
much for joining us.
Speaker 4 (37:00):
Thank you both. It's so great to see you again.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Don We're huge fans, and just please keep up with
the great work. We need good pulling out there, because
Lord knows we need lots more signal with all this
noise out there.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
And for the record, you think the Harris Poll is cool.
Speaker 4 (37:16):
Thank you guys. Have a great one.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
And now it's time for what's on your mind? And
so our question this episode comes from Julie.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Hi, Julie.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
Juli had some nice things to say about each of us.
We're not going to read it because it sounds a
little bit too much, but we appreciate, you know, the
kind words. But she did highlight how, you know, Marissa,
you've done you know, kind of all these incredible trying
it on in your career with you know, different strategy
concepts to elevate brands, you know, ways that other folks haven't.
(37:48):
And July mentioned a lot of my focus on building brands.
You know that are you know, kind of either B to.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
B in tech?
Speaker 3 (37:55):
And she asks, how do the two of you square
this circle? How should your listeners plan their careers? What
are the skills they need? And where are we headed?
And that sounds like a very big I know, that
sounds like a very big existential you know meati question.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
I've heard three questions there. Let's pick apart one part
of that to go for Julie, what do you think
how do we square this circle? How should our listeners
plan their career as well? I wish I had the
answer to that one well.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
By zoom out.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
I think what Julia is getting at is that there
is no straight line when it comes to a career,
for sure, and I think there.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Is a through line.
Speaker 3 (38:36):
And so if you look at my through line, I
would say ever since I started in investment, banking, private equity,
I was focused on technology and so being a technology,
media and telecom analyst in those early days at Blackstone's
Almostmith Barney, all the way up to what I'm doing
now with my own company, the through line has been technology.
(38:56):
And there's been various iterations and derivatives of that being
applied to different industries and categories, but that has been
the through line, and I think it really is a
passion of something, you know, back to what we have
discussed in previous pods around your Ichy guy, right, like
what truly is your purpose and connecting what you love,
what you're good at, what does the world need, and
(39:17):
what you can get paid for and when you have
that intersection of those four vectors, that really is kind
of what you can do with your life your purpose.
And so I feel like I was always really interested
in technology and kind of applying it and being that
translator between business and tech. I think that's been some
way that I've been able to plan my career but
(39:38):
if the listener is trying to figure out where are
you on the journey, if you're stuck in a job
that you don't like, or if you're working for some
asshole and you know you really don't want to be
there anymore, or if you're kind of stuck in you're
trying to get to the next level, just really trying
to zoom out and understand what your achy guy is
and really trying to figure out what is that through line,
(39:58):
the true connective tissue of all the different things you've
done to date. I feel like that could be helpful
in terms of understanding where is the puck going.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
I really like that. I like the idea of a
through line because what that helps you also maybe think
through and just still is what's changing and what actually
remains a constant, because some things do remain a constant
as fundamental to the business world. So you just shared yours.
I think if I were to say, what's my through line,
(40:28):
it's been being a creative storyteller, but in very sometimes
not even totally visible, strategic ways to create a business result.
That's why it's not just creativity ever for creativity's sake,
but in a commercial context, So for me, that's an
interesting way of thinking about Like that isn't going to
(40:48):
go away. To me, that's fundamental. The tools of how
we do it are the things that are constantly changing.
So how do you figure out how to stay true
like grounded and if that's your fundamental strength or place
it with whatever it is, what's your fundamental strength? But
then how do you stay courageous and curious about the
(41:09):
parts that are changing so you can adapt and stay relevant.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
That's done to me.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
I feel like there's a lot of parallels, and this
is part of the reason why we get along so well,
and I just have so much respect for you. But
you have always focused on creativity as a means to
an end, not the end in of itself, and the
end has always been about business results. And I could
say the same thing about technology, right, like technology is
not the end. AI is not the end. It's a
(41:36):
means to an end, right, and the end is about
you know. That's why you know my company is called Alpha, right,
it's about unlocking alpha. You know, the financial definition of
having a return that's above the mean, like understanding that
all these things have to be in service of business.
And I think whatever it is that you know someone
is doing, you know, working away on just trying to
understand how that actually is put in context. And I
(41:59):
remember I was talking about soone. It doesn't matter what
you call the title, you know, because a lot of
folks they get attracted to strategy roles or you know,
innovation roles. It's like, no, everyone should be strategic, everyone
should be innovative. But you really can make it very simple,
and you just look at a P and L write
(42:19):
a profit and law statement, an income statement and one.
If you're unfamiliar with some of those financial terms, that's
obviously something that you have to educate yourself about again
financial literacy, it's a theme for this week's pot But
understanding every single function on that income statement is tied
to a role. So your revenue is sales, you know
(42:40):
your costs. You know, well, maybe that's your product. And
then you know kind of your SG and A you're
selling general and administrative expenses. That is effectively your marketing,
your R and D. And then you know your GNA
is kind of like your legal you know your HR,
you know your other you know kind of administrative functions.
So it really comes down to the functions in the
(43:02):
c suite revenue, marketing, product, R and D, technology, finance,
legal people, right, and again the CEO really doesn't have
kind of like what is you know, if you're a
chief marketing officer, I know what you do. If you're
a chief technology officer, I know what you do. If
you're a chief executive officer, I don't know what you do.
(43:23):
You just basically manage the other executives.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
Right.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
You're obviously there to be the leader and vision and whatever,
but understand that each of those functions play a role,
and any listener, like, whatever you do in your career,
it has to fall into one of those functions that
maps back to an income statement.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
That's great. That is a good way of thinking about it.
It's very simple, but it's very accurate, and it doesn't
matter what industry it applies to. You could just break
it down that way. I'll just add that I love
that my title is now chief customer a marketing officer
because I think sometimes what does get lost? And this
is a nice way of maybe tying this all back
(44:01):
to the conversation we had with John in this episode
is sometimes you wind up in boardrooms just debating the
P and L or debating, you know, should this dollar
go here, and you forget that the end of the day,
we all are in service to people who are our
customers or who we want to be our customers. For me,
(44:21):
that's just the kind of get it out of the
conceptual or just the financial and make it we all
have to think about the real world. And that's what
I loved about why we did this conversation with John
today is if you lose touch with how people are
feeling and thinking, and they're hurting and they're worried and
they're excited, and you aren't thinking about how that applies.
(44:43):
I don't care what role you have, although I love
having maybe paramount accountability for it. At is a shared
responsibility of every leader and that is not something that
will change as a responsibility of leaders in business, even
though as we said, the tools of the trade are
constantly changing and you are at the forefront of teaching
(45:03):
boards and others, at least from a AI technology standpoint.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
How but you're saying it's spot on. It has to
be again back to the end result. It has to
be about the customer, right, like why are you in business?
A for profit business? It has to be about getting
a customer or keeping a customer and all those functions
you know, need to be in service of that, and
sometimes you know, people forget you know, maybe you know,
the CTO isn't always thinking about the customer because they
(45:27):
get an amateur technology, or the chief financial officer is
not thinking about the customer because they're focused on, you know,
the numbers. I mean, you have to understand what it
is that you're trying to do. And again, Joey, thank
you for obviously a very important.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Question that we could actually have a whole another pot it.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
Maybe we should kind of do a whole episode around,
you know, kind of career advice because I feel like
we get a lot of these questions.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
Marisa.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
It can actually be a lot of fun because you know,
we're at a moment whereas existentially tasks are going to
be automated, and you know, what is going to be
the function, what is going.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
To be the role?
Speaker 3 (46:00):
How do you actually stay ahead? That actually be something
that could be a pretty cool topic.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
Well, I think that's a great idea, and people remember
it's still all about the people. So how's that And
that's it for now. Thanks so much for joining us.
Don't forget to subscribe, and we really do love your questions,
so Julie great one. Tell us what's on your minds
by emailing us at ideas at brandishnew dot com, or
(46:27):
just drop us a message on any of our social channels,
and thanks so much. We'll see you next time on
brand New
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