When You’re The Brand (with guest Bobby Berk)

One of the recurring questions on “Brand New” has been to what extent should everyone think of themselves as a “brand.“ When it comes to celebrities, it’s not a question; they know they are brands. On this episode, Marisa and Steven talk with renowned interior designer, lifestyle expert and star of Netflix’s “Queer Eye” about his journey of creating a brand first as an entrepreneur, and then experiencing its transformation through the fame of a hit TV show.Bobby’s life story is interesting in and of itself (how many people do you know who started out in he Amish Bible Belt, lived out of their car as a teenager and managed to work their way up the ranks of home decor retail). But this conversation will go beyond to give you a rare, thoughtful view of how to think about helming a brand, when that brand is… you.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, and thanks for joining us on brand New from
the iHeart Podcast Network and Brand New Labs.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
I'm Marissa Thalberg and.

Speaker 3 (00:14):
I'm Stephen Wolfe Aida and I'm finally back home in
La been on the road, as have you, Marisa. Yeah,
it's been a little bit of a whirlwind trip and
definitely a lot of travelers fall.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
I hate that we were both in New York for
a few hours and overlapping but weren't able to see
each other. But there's some good stuff that we both
got to go to this week. And you were at
a couple of conferences. You were at a NASDAT conference,
you were at a met A conference. I got to
go to a couple of things too while I was
in New York, one of which was the Time one

(00:47):
hundred Women in Leadership Conference, the first one they did
on that.

Speaker 3 (00:50):
It was great, their first one.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
It was their first one like that. They obviously have
a whole franchise. The big Time one hundred is, you know,
obviously very star studded event.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
This was too.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Frankly, I was a smaller event Chelsea Piers and brought
back good memories because that's where when I got the
Matrix Award. It was there, so another sort of women
power moment to relive.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
I know, it was so nice.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
Is it supposed to be like their Most Powerful Women Summit?

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Kind of No, because it wasn't awards based.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
It was really just taking different themes and so they
had multiple little panels. There was one about women in
sports and women in healthcare. Actually, one of my favorite
moments was they opened it with a performance from Shana Tabb,
who created the Broadway musical Suffs, which is about the
women's suffrage movement, and very appropriately because this event was

(01:42):
right before the big presidential debate between Kamala and Travels,
right before that, and so her finale song, which she
created from the musical, is called keep Marching, and it's
about women and progress and marching on. So that was
one of my It was very time. It was one
of my favorite oments. Other was I think, if I
had to pick one, was Valerie Jarrett was on a

(02:04):
panel and you may know, I'm just such an influential
leader in the Obama administration.

Speaker 3 (02:09):
Yeah, she's awesome, and her sort.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
Of piece of wisdom that I think resonated with a
lot of people was encouraging women. But you could just
take women out and make this about people using your
voice to be a force for good and that the
world will be better if more women are forces for
good and understand the power of their voices. And that's
something I just believe in so strongly and have fought

(02:31):
for myself. And sometimes it's really hard to use our
voices even when we're in positions of presumed power, as
women in particular. So I just loved hearing her say
that with such conviction.

Speaker 3 (02:45):
Well, I believe deeply in that. I mean, one, you know,
growing up in a very matriarchal family, all very powerful latinas,
you know, telling me what to do growing up. So
I think that it's a definitely time to have not
just you know, more women in leadership roles. I think
it's just time to have a woman in the White House.

(03:06):
So very excited.

Speaker 1 (03:07):
Oh boy, you may have opened a can of worms there,
but you know, let me just say go, women.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
I don't care. I'm having my authentic voice, right, this
is what I believe.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
I love it. Tell me about what kind of the
highlights from your yeah, recent travels and events have been.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
So it does, you know, kind of suck being in
the same city with you and not being able to connect,
but it was for a good reason. So the NASDAQ
does something called the Center for Excellence on Boards, and
as a board director, you know, it's always important to
sharpen the saw get training because I think the issues
that board directors deal with is very different from just

(03:44):
kind of other business type roles. And they really had
a star studied event, but from a business and from
a director perspective. When I started my career, one of
the most important Wall Street analysts was this woman, Abby
Joseph Cohen, who was at Golden Sacks forever and she
was an economy and you know, always spoke about the markets.
She now teaches at Columbia, so she kind of opened up.

(04:04):
But what I thought was probably one of the most
interesting fireside chats was with a guy who's a senior
managing director at Evercore Private Equity Slash Advisory Investment Bank,
and this guy Bill Anderson, and he was actually talking
about the types of people or executives that boards need,
and it was just fascinating because this is a guy
that has defended against activists. I mean, he has represented

(04:28):
Apple and you know large Fortune five hundred companies has
taken on Carl icon in activist fights. I mean, he
has been really in the thick of it and he
leads that practice at Evercore, and so he was just
giving his perspective. But he was like, look, you need
to have a board member that has been a CEO
of a company that has been sold, because ultimately a

(04:48):
board will get approached with the hostel bid to take
over the company or take private and you need to
have someone that has had that experience before. He then said,
the second type of person needs to be bad ass,
hard ass CFO, which is you know, near and dear
to my heart on the finance side.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
Tell me you're not going to end the sentence here,
but it was interesting, that's.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
The perspective because you need to have someone.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
I'm not sighing at the idea of a good CFO
or CEO, by the way, I'm just fearing that this
is the end of the sentence.

Speaker 3 (05:20):
I know, I know, I know. But it was just
interesting because when he was defending Apple against Nelson Pelts,
when he was coming after them and they had I think,
what forty billion dollars of cash in the balance sheet,
how do you defend that? Like, why do you need
all that cash? Was the activist perspective, and it was
the CFO that was able to defend and make the
case as to why they needed to have all that cash.
So a hard ass CFO. And then the third was

(05:42):
really about knowing your customer. And it was fascinating because
it was about having an investor on your board, a shareholder.
And when they say investor, it means like someone that
represents large institutional investors, like someone from Blackrock or Fidelity,
some that holds, you know, billions and millions of dollars
and they invest on a daily basis. To have that

(06:02):
shareholder perspective because ultimately, when shareholders revolt or when there's
an activist fight, you need to defend against that. And
so I asked the question to Bill. I was like, well, hey,
you know you've been talking about all these themes. You know.
The whole conversation was about the importance of communication, strategy.
Can the CEO articulate the vision of the company convince
the street about whether they're doing a good job. I mean,

(06:25):
everything was about marketing, but they did not use the
word marketing.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
Sharker, Oh did anyone point that out or was it
not that kind of environment?

Speaker 3 (06:36):
Well, it was definitely not that kind of environment. But
I asked the question about what about other types of
you know, kind of disciplines experiences on boards, and I
certainly asked the question about cmos on boards and just
kind of chuckling, and he's like, yeah, not really. And
so it's just this fascinating chasm that we have where
everyone believes in the outputs of marketing but they don't

(06:58):
want to call it.

Speaker 1 (06:58):
That.

Speaker 3 (06:59):
Everyone believes in the importance of communication and how to
connect with a consumer and the importance of digital and
all these kind of things that marketers are doing day
and day out, but for whatever reason, it does not
translate into the zeitgeist of business and CEOs and CFOs
and board members that they need to have that point
of view on the board. That's my rant.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
Oh, it's an important rant. It just makes me worry
that we have again a branding problem in and amongst
ourselves and as an industry. And I don't know what
we're going to do about it. But it does come
down to communication, doesn't it, in terms of so many
of the needs. And I think marketing does have this
weird association to it that needs to efix, just like

(07:42):
we've talked about now it's become almost an old saw
of brand versus performance, and gosh, we just we physicians
have to heal ourselves with these issues somehow, and you know,
maybe Steven, you'll lobby.

Speaker 3 (07:57):
Yeah. No, it's part of the reason why we're doing
our theme this you know, kind of multi part series
around yeah, you know, the marketing, media and the money,
because I do think it's important to bring in this
conversation to connect the dots. And we can talk about
another time. I was also at this AI conference and
you know, Meta had their brand building summit. So in
the tech world, I mean there's so many things that
are happening, and again it is real. Do not underestimate

(08:19):
the hype. But it was just very striking to see
this you know kind of board, you know, finance world,
this technology developer world, and how disconnected they are from
this marketing brand world. And we got to find a
way to connect those dots.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
A couple of related things.

Speaker 1 (08:35):
I mean, we are going to keep this series going
on the Marketers Meet the Money, because I mean this
is going to be a perennial topic. I think another
topic we've been debating quite a bit in the last
few episodes. This idea of people as brands, and as
a marketer, you always think about a brand personified, but

(08:56):
it goes the other way. That's super interesting And what
it occurred to me as we were having that conversation
recently on the podcast, is that what we really meant
or are let's be honest, regular people as brands or
the debate because celebrities have known for years at their
brands and they've treated themselves that way and they've been
treated that way. And so what's interesting is what happens

(09:20):
if you actually start in the world of business, so
you're not born of Hollywood, you're not born of the
entertainment industry, and then you become famous and then you
want to create new chapters of your work, which means
you're now a brand that is really a famous brand,
Like what is that all like?

Speaker 2 (09:39):
And so we're going to have someone.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
That represents that, who fits that description and is a
friend of mine, but someone broadly known from his television
appearance and as original cast member of the reboot of
Queer Eye, Bobby Burke, and actually our own relationships started
through work partnership. So when we come back, let's have
a conversation about being a brand with Bobby. We're back

(10:09):
and we have Bobby Burke with us here, and let
me tell you a little bit about Bobby. He's best
known as the design guru on Netflix's hit show Queer Eye,
but his rise to fame didn't happen overnight. He worked
for years in the creative and design field for companies
like bed Bath and Beyond, Restoration Hardware, and Portico, and
then took the leap to start his own brand in

(10:32):
two thousand and six. Stores followed in Manhattan, Miami, Atlanta,
and soon Bobby Burke Interors and Design was a full
service interior design practice for residential, commercial, and hospitality clients
at his own line of wallpaper, furniture art. I know
I'm missing some stuff, Bobby. But then, of course he
became the interior design expert on the Netflix reality series

(10:54):
Queer Eye, which turned him into a true celebrity. And
I think why fans quickly made him a favorite.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
It is, Bobby.

Speaker 1 (11:01):
It's your talent for transforming spaces, but also with your empathy,
and you've gone on to use your platform to become
an advocate for inclusivity mental well being. Bobby did announce
earlier this year that season eight would be your last.
But I'm part of what I know we're going to
want to talk about is what you're turning your attention
to with all sorts of new projects and products and

(11:22):
developing new shows. So with that, let me just say
I'm half of Steven and Me. Welcome to brand new.

Speaker 4 (11:28):
Thank you, thanks for having me. Guys.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
Quite an intro, Bobby, it's a turning of the tables,
right because I did a pod with you once, so
now it's only fair quid.

Speaker 4 (11:38):
Pro quo exactly exactly. Remember when Facebook was trying to
compete with Clubhouse and I mean, actually, do you remember
remember Clubhouse?

Speaker 3 (11:49):
Now?

Speaker 4 (11:52):
Yeah, so covid.

Speaker 1 (11:55):
It really shows the necessity of talking about our worlds
because it's amazing. And we started this podcast and it
wasn't that long ago. Threads was first launching, and we
talked about it for two episodes straight, and you know
it's always changing.

Speaker 4 (12:11):
Hey, Threads is back, baby, Threads.

Speaker 2 (12:14):
What I'm just saying, yeah, how it all changes?

Speaker 4 (12:17):
No, It's it's funny like Threads. I think what had
like five hundred million sign ups in right, you know,
seventy two hours and then and then it just went
its flatlined.

Speaker 5 (12:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (12:29):
For I'd say about a year. And I think the
election has really I mean, I have more traffic on
my threads and more in our engagement on my threads
than I have since the very beginning right now, and
I think it's because so many people more on the
left are so tired of the toxicity of the other

(12:49):
platform that I won't even say that. Everyone's like, oh,
threads is like a happy place, like people aren't saying
horrible things and they're supported, and it's just it's like,
you don't like I went on that other one this
morning and I just within five minutes I was like whoa.
I'm like, my god, the horrible things.

Speaker 3 (13:12):
I've just read.

Speaker 4 (13:12):
And I'm like, oh, this is why I don't open this.
Threats is having a resurgence. Anyways, I digress.

Speaker 1 (13:18):
Our whole conversation can be one big digression, and Steven,
I would be perfectly fine, but.

Speaker 2 (13:22):
I will bring us back to you. I'm gonna bring
us back to you.

Speaker 1 (13:26):
Just talk a little bit, because I think grounding in
your own just like with brands where we talk about
origin stories, I want to talk about your origin story
for a second, because in many ways you are a classic,
if kind of funky, modern great American Horatio Alder story.
Growing up in the Amish Bible belt of Missouri and

(13:46):
you lived out of your car as a teenager. I'm
sure not everyone knows that. And now look at the
heights you've accomplished. And what I was hoping you just
kind of kick off with is reflecting back on that.
Did you ever think this height business success would be possible?
And what are the moments for everyone who's now rising
up in their careers that you realize put you on

(14:07):
a path to success.

Speaker 4 (14:09):
To the first part of the question, no, you know,
I never would have thought that this type of success
would be attainable, and I mean there's still days where
I don't think it is. I never had anything like
this as an example to attain to. I couldn't have
imagined it because I didn't even know that life like
this existed. I could say, you know, a little bitty

(14:29):
town in the middle of nowhere. I had never been anywhere.
I had never done anything. You know, my parents were
very hard workers, but we were not well off. And
I think your second question was by advice.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
No, not so much advice, but things always make sense
in the rear view mirror, at least from this point
in your life with the lots of you know, lots
of runway forward, but looking back now where there's certain
moments like when you got your first job, or something
happened that catalyzed that you like, okay, it was that

(15:02):
step I took or that person who helped me, or
realizing I could do this. That were really those catalyzing
moments to becoming a professional business success. You know.

Speaker 4 (15:13):
I think some of the moments that kind of pushed
me further were can I curse on this? Yeah? I
don't want to sit on anybody's job. Yeah, I don't
want to shit on anybody's job. Because I've had every
job you can imagine from you know, working at a
gas station overnight, you know, working in kitchens and restaurants

(15:36):
and retail. But there have been aspects of those jobs
where I have sat there and I thought to myself, no, this,
you know, And it was honestly usually it was when
I was in those jobs as a teen and early
twenty and I would be working with somebody side by
side who was four times my age, and I would think,

(16:00):
this cannot be me, This cannot be me. I cannot
still be here in forty years. I cannot. I don't
care what I have to do, I cannot still be
doing this in forty years. So I think that was
kind of always like kind of seeing the decisions and
the choices others had made to kind of maybe settle

(16:21):
or not push themselves. You know, I would have conversations
with these people and I'm like, you know, did you
ever want to do more? And it was over either
a no, I'm just I'm happy with my life the
way it is. I don't want for anything. I'm good, like, Okay, well,
that's one aspect to look at it, but I do
you know, or looking talking to some people who had
just made the wrong choices and ended up there. So

(16:43):
I think that catalyst was always I want more. I
never knew what that more was, but I just knew
that I would do whatever I needed to do and
works hard in it. I needed to work to do it.

Speaker 3 (16:54):
Bobby, longtime fan. I guess the first time caller or talker,
I wouldgree to me, Dad, But you know you said
that you know you wanted more, but it's almost like
you also thought that you could achieve more. And I
think one of the interesting things now that I live
in LA you know, I'm not from the entertainment industry.

(17:16):
I didn't grow up in it, but it seems like
it's so difficult to break through. I know, seriously, I'm
very very thankful for that, but I feel like you
were able to break in and just to see kind
of how you obviously were a part of the Queer
Eye reboot. You know, you start to see this in
twenty eighteen where it really starts to kind of take

(17:37):
off and you now become this celebrity and you know
how fickle this town is and all the you know,
kind of the whole ecosystem of Hollywood. But you did
not come up in this business, and so I'm just
so curious, like what was that? Like, I mean, what
was that transition? Like, I mean coming from you know,
your kind of very grounded origins and working those types

(17:59):
of jobs and then you're seeing this, like what was that?

Speaker 4 (18:02):
Like? Hollywood has been interesting because it doesn't really work
like any other industry. I have always been able to
if I work.

Speaker 3 (18:12):
I'm just going to stop and say it doesn't really work. Period.
That's a different part. The challenges of how we address
that on the last one in a way, you.

Speaker 4 (18:21):
Know, I've gotten to where I am today because I've
worked my ass off. That's what's worked for me. I
work hard, I see you know, the fruits of my labor.
I work harder. I see the fruits of my labor.
Hollywood didn't really work like that, you know, and that
was a little frustrating. It always is still frustrating to me.
You know, you go in, you work your ass off,

(18:42):
you do your best, and then hard work necessarily isn't rewarded,
you know, fake over the topnesses, and so I've I've
had to learn to balance that and set my expectations
a little differently.

Speaker 1 (18:57):
That's so interesting because we wanted to talk about with
you is a little different than maybe a straight interview
that you're used to giving, because this is brand new,
and we think it's fascinating that you did have and
that's why I want to kind of go through your
whole bio that you had this career and condaly continue
to have this career as an accomplished designer business person,

(19:22):
and then the kind of let's call it the Hollywood
piece happens, and it was certainly a propellant, but it
is not the only thing that's defined you. And so
here's my question, what's the Bobby Burke brand? What is
your brand? How is Queer Eye?

Speaker 2 (19:38):
How have you shaped it? How has it changed? Because
we talk a lot about this of people.

Speaker 4 (19:46):
I think Queerie has not changed my brand.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (19:49):
I have always been very aware and very calculated and
specific about what my brand is. And my brand is
about democratizing design. My brand is accessible. My brand is
showing people that you don't have to be a millionaire,
You don't have to be able to afford to have
a designer to have a nice home. You to think

(20:10):
about the way your home affects your mental health. You know.
I opened up my very first store in November of
two thousand and seven, and then, as we're all old
enough to remember, early two thousand and eight came along
and the world crumbled, Their sterns, you know, went out
of existence, the whole banking system collapsed. And so having

(20:31):
just invested a ton of money.

Speaker 3 (20:32):
Into opening, that's a great time to redesign your home,
right Yeah.

Speaker 4 (20:36):
Yeah, I was just like, Wow, Okay, I just opened
up a store in New York City, and literally if
you still had a home, yeah, I literally half a
New York City just lost their jobs or are terrified
to lose their jobs, or their entire stock portfolio is gone,
and I'm like, what am I going to do? Because
now I'm going to lose my apartment in my life.
So I had to be very specific about, Okay, I

(20:58):
have to walk a tightrope of being very accessible in
order to keep my doors open. And I've I've suck
with that this whole time, especially the fact that I
did not come from money. I have never wanted to
be that fancy schmancy, snooty brand. That is just not me.
That's not me as a person, that's not me as
a brand. A lot of what Hollywood is is that,

(21:21):
and is putting on a show and putting on an
air of somebody that you're not. And I've always refused
to do that, and it's been sometimes that's successful for
me and sometimes it's not because Hollywood. Anyways, to this day,
even with Queer Eye, I've always made sure to keep
my brand authentic and consistent, and I think that's one

(21:45):
of the reasons why I was cast on Queer Eye.
I'm not a designer for the one percent. I'm a
designer for the masses.

Speaker 3 (21:52):
That resonates with me and I I love design. I
think the whole idea of democratizing design is so incredibly
import because you know, people want this level of This
is my oasis, this is my home, this is where
I want to invite you in, and people need help.
But when you think about the things that you are

(22:12):
offering to people and just the way that you're either
educating and forming, you know, inspiring folks, what are the
I guess the most successful ways that you've done that, right,
Because there's so many choices out there. I mean, it
is so hard for a brand, like a corporate brand
to connect. But you are kind of the brand of Bobby, right,
and so how do you think about, Hey, these are

(22:33):
going to be the ways that I'm going to engage
and inspire my audience.

Speaker 4 (22:37):
I mean, I think the way that I've built my
brand and engaged my audience is realizing very early that
me as a brand, that's me apart being somebody that
a customer, a brand, a company wants to work with,
wants to interact with. Selling joy. I think joy is

(22:58):
a very big thing right now, and that's always kind
of been my brand. When I first launch my brand.
There was so many furniture brands. I mean, sadly a
lot of most of them are gone at this point.
But I was like, you know what sets me apart?
And I started looking at the success of fashion brands,

(23:20):
the ones that are the most successful, the ones at
the time were coming up. And a good friend of mine,
Philip Limb, who I also had on the same podcast
that I did with you Mursa. Him and I have
been friends since before we started our companies. We both
launched our companies the same year, and his instantly got
traction because it wasn't just a name like Habitat or
MUCKs or you know what, there's just viewing random words

(23:42):
out there. It was a person's name, and it was
a brand that somebody could relate to. And people saw
Philip and they're like, I see myself in Philip. Here
is this kind lovely, wonderful, fashionable person who is I
want to be friends with? And I'm like, huh, that
kind of inspired me. I'm like, you know, I could
have named my brand something more furniture related or home related,

(24:03):
but I'm like, I want to put my name behind
it because I think when people see who I am,
it makes them want to be a part of that.
I saw that from a very early stage in my brand,
and that's why I named my brand my name. Sometimes
it's been a pain in the butt, you know, not
being able to just be a no name behind the brand,

(24:24):
you know. I remember when I first opened up my stores,
I couldn't be the one working in the stores. And
also once people knew they had the owner, they would
be asking for discounts and this and that. So I
actually just worked in my store as Kevin. I told
people I was Kevin. And it wasn't until my brand
started getting more awareness and stores.

Speaker 3 (24:41):
All over the place don't look like.

Speaker 4 (24:44):
You know that people would come into the store and
be like, wait, aren't you Bobby? You know, and obviously
I can't get away with that now.

Speaker 3 (24:50):
But you were using your voice. The whole point is
you are the brand, and the brand is you, right,
and so for you to kind of connect How important
was it for you to really just put yourself out there,
because it's got to be hard. I mean, from you
know one vector, you are a brand, but you're also
a creator, right and when you think about the creator economy,
it's just something that I'm so passionate about Merrison and
I are creators, right, we're doing this pod right now.

(25:12):
I think everyone is going to take this multi dimensional
portfolio approach to really owning your brand, and everyone will
be a creator in some way, shape or form. But
you've been at the forefront of it. Is video the
most effective way, I mean, like, how do you actually
engage with your fans, Like I think that's one of
the things that I think so many people would really
want to hear from you.

Speaker 4 (25:30):
Yeah. So, I mean in the beginning, I launched in
two thousand and six online, two thousand and seven in store.
I didn't even join Twitter until two thousand and nine.
Instagram didn't come along until I don't remember, but there
was no video. So in the beginning, it was Facebook.
It was four Square. If you guys remember for Square,
Oh yeah, used four Square a lot.

Speaker 3 (25:51):
We're not going to date ourselves, but we.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
Remember that was the mayor of a lot of places.

Speaker 4 (25:55):
Oh me too, God, one of my best friends. We
used to fight. I cannot fight, but we would, you know,
back and forth. We'd become the mayor of this our
favorite dim Sum place in New York City, dim Sum
Go Go, and I'd get so upset. When Sarah would
become the mayor, I'd get a notification and I'm like no,
and it just really made me go to that business more.

Speaker 3 (26:14):
They got to bring the concept back that was a
great gamification concept.

Speaker 4 (26:18):
Well Facebook, Facebook killed it. Remember when Facebook then launched
check in some businesses? Yeah, pretty soon, I would say
within like a year or two, four square was gone.
So Facebook has a tendency to do that. See a
good idea that some other smaller company has come out with,
copy it and take it over.

Speaker 1 (26:36):
Wait, I want to get back to your question Steven
that you asked, Oh was going like, how do you
feel engaging as Bobby Burke the brand but the person
and the fact that those are interchangeable is interesting to us.
How do you feel like you engage best? What are
the obligations around that too.

Speaker 4 (26:55):
I mean there's a lot, a lot of them to
do it, you know, there's many many I would say days,
but I would say weeks or months that I really
don't want to. That's one of the cons of making
you your brand is you have to constantly be engaging.
You have to constantly be a part of it. And

(27:15):
I am always very aware that I need to be genuine.
You know, there are those people out there that are
their brands that their brand is over the top and
they're selling something that is not really them. Which is
easier to be honest. It's easier when you are just
getting on camera and you're acting. It's harder when you are, like,

(27:38):
I'm not just going to get on there and put
on a happy face and act. I'm really going to
be me and if I'm not in a great mood,
and you're probably going to see that. But I think
that for me is important to be real and sincere
and legit. Yeah, the way I interact with the most,
I guess now is through video, and I guess we
can all think TikTok for that. Unfortunately, that's another one
of those things. You know. Instagram was a great place

(28:00):
where you could just make beautiful pictures and content and
it did really, really well. I was looking back at
literally just two years ago, photos on my Instagram would
get over three hundred thousand likes within an hour, and
now photos on Instagram it is hard to get three
thousand likes because now everything is real. Instagram saw the

(28:24):
success of TikTok and video and they're like oh, let's
let's do that too, And so their algorithm now push
is pretty much only reels. So it's it's a lot
of work.

Speaker 1 (28:33):
See now that makes me feel old school because I
prefer photos. I do too personally in terms of posting,
I just videos are a lot of work.

Speaker 4 (28:43):
Well, especially for me. My brand is home stuff, my
brand is design. To create content in my field is
not only time consuming, but it's expensive too. It cost money,
and so if those videos don't do well, it was
an investment that did not pay off. Where you know,
if somebody is a fashion influencer or a makeup influencer,

(29:06):
it's not that much investment financially. Time, yes, but not financially.
And so it's funny when in the very beginning we
were talking at TikTok and TikTok's like, yeah, you know,
we have some great ideas where you know, people really
love fitness and they love design, So how about you
do videos where you go in and you make over gems.
And I'm like, oh, okay, that sounds really expensive and

(29:28):
time consuming. Are you guys gonna throw some money my
way to produce all this and for the materials and
the labor, I'm like, this is not as my brand
is not as easy as just trying on different outfits
in front of a mirror that I can actually then
return after I tried them on my brand. It's redoing, Jim.
That's multiple weeks anyways.

Speaker 3 (29:47):
But that is something about the unspoken cost of being
a content creator. I don't think people appreciate all the
things that go into it, right.

Speaker 4 (29:53):
So yeah, people are like, oh, get a real job
to some content creators, and I'm like, I don't really
think you know what goes into creating content. Yeah, people
might think, oh, whatever.

Speaker 3 (30:02):
And it is a real job. I think that's so
like dated type of thinking, right, I mean there's so
many folks. I mean, so many creators now have their
own managers, They have their own accountants. I mean, they
have their own lines of business. I mean, yeah, it
is again a booming, booming part of the economy.

Speaker 4 (30:15):
People think I make money from Queer Eye.

Speaker 3 (30:16):
No, Netflix makes money from Queer Eye.

Speaker 4 (30:20):
Netflix takes money from Queer Eye. The cast did not
make I mean some, don't get me wrong, some in
the grand scheme of things, great amount of money. But
when you compare it to what people in the scripted
world make it's insane. All of us make our money
through are the majority of our money through content creation

(30:40):
and brand partnerships and you know, endorsements.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
We talk about the partnerships fees for a second. It's
one that's near and dear to my heart on two levels.
One when I think as a marketer stewarting brands, how
I've done some of the work that I feel has
been most noteworthy and most transformed the brands I've helmed,
A lot of it has come through on expected partnerships
and on second levels because it's how you and I

(31:05):
got to become friends. And that's actually maybe a fun
story you want to share. But again going back to this,
like you and the brand inextricable, how have you thought
about where you will and won't collaborate or partner with
another brand?

Speaker 4 (31:23):
As Bobby Burke, I try to be as legit as possible.
I try to really only work with brands that I
actually use. You know, I recently did a big partnership
with Fiber, the freelance marketplace, and I have been a
customer of Fiber since twenty fourteen, and when they first

(31:46):
came to me, I was like, I'm trying to like going.
I went through to look for that very first sign
up be Mom, I'm like, yeah, like, I've been your
customer for ten years. Wow, you know, and so what
are you using them for? For renderings? You know, the
very first designed and I got back in twenty fourteen.
I used them to create the renderings for Tripoint Homes
and that's how I got the job. Three D renderings, right, yeah,

(32:06):
three D renderings. And I mean they do all kinds
of things their freelancers do, but I originally signed up
to get three D renderings done for the designs that
I was making. KAT is a very time consuming thing
and I still don't know how to do it to
this day. For example, how I met Marissa was through Lows.
You know, Low's reached out obviously as a designer. As
a garden enthusiast, I shop at Low's, you know, the
other one I felt didn't align with me as much.

(32:29):
And when they reached out, I started diving down into
who was at the top. And at the top was Marissa.
And I looked at her Instagram and I was like, oh,
look at her and a Pride parade and you know
she's clearly looking Oh she did tackle Bell hotel.

Speaker 6 (32:47):
I love that, and I'm like, oh, I actually think
I want to be this lady's friend too, And so
it needs to be something that a brand that I
really truly have already worked with, or a product that
I'm yes, I've never heard of this product, but I'm
absolutely going to be using now because this really does
enhance my life or my business.

Speaker 4 (33:06):
Or a company that really connects with me on an
ethical level. This is a brand I want to help
because I think what they're doing in the world is
really good.

Speaker 3 (33:14):
Could just pause for effect, because it just goes to
show how each of us are brands. We're talking about
the brand of Bobby, but if you are a CMO
like Marissa, if you are you know, a mid level manager,
if you're working at an agency, if you're working at
a company, everyone is a brand and we speak about
this a lot. I think sometimes people don't like the label.

(33:35):
It feels very capitalistic, but like it's also just being
pragmatic and realistic about everyone is a brand and people
will absolutely go see what does this brand stand for
and how you show up, whether it's LinkedIn or your
socials or whatever it is. I love the fact that
you checked her out and you did your diligence, and
you're like, wow, she's someone that I want to jam with.
I think that's an important point.

Speaker 4 (33:56):
Yeah, I mean, there have honestly been deals that have
come to me that are just an instaning amount of money.
And I will research the people at the top, and
I will go back to w ME and I will
I'll send receipts with the links to these articles and
I'm like, guys, I cannot be associated with this. And

(34:18):
they're like, but it's a seven figure deal, and I'm like,
I don't care. I mean, I do care, but no,
you know, it's just I'm not willing to sell out.

Speaker 3 (34:29):
No, it's tough having values, bobbing, it's tough, you know,
having principles. Yeah, it turns out.

Speaker 4 (34:33):
Yeah, I mean I remember in the middle of God
was it. I think it would have been the twenty
twenty election. It's hard to remember because you've got the
same crazy person that's now been a part of the
last three elections. I'm like, wait a minute, which one
was it? But it was twenty twenty. I remember we
were actually in the middle of a deal and we
were we had already signed the deal, and we were

(34:57):
creating content for it, and it was a materials brand
that is in tear design. Really it was a great partnership,
and the founder I found out was throwing a massive
fundraiser for that, you know person that I don't think
either of us well obviously I know neither of us
voted for. I pulled the morals clause and I'm like,

(35:18):
I personally find this in moral and I pulled out
of the contract, and some of my team was pissed,
but I'm like, I just I will not be associated
with this at all. I will not be putting money
in the pocket of somebody who was putting money in
this man's pocket.

Speaker 3 (35:33):
Well good for you, ma'am.

Speaker 1 (35:35):
I think what you're sharing is going to be very
illuminating for a lot of people because what this storytelling.
You just gave about your own process for choosing partnerships.
It's probably surprising to some people that.

Speaker 2 (35:51):
You do go to that effort.

Speaker 1 (35:52):
It's a lot harder, and we jokingly and seriously to
make those choices to do the work, But it also
is the essence of being a consistent and authentic brand,
which is honestly what I believe as a practitioner is
what makes brand stick over the long term, not that
they can't ever change. That's not what I mean by consistency,

(36:15):
but that they're consistent in terms of their ultimate DNA,
their ultimate values. And you know, strategy is also I
always say this to my team's strategy is choices. Right,
If you think about what strategy is picking certain things
and not others, you've made choices. Some of those are
hard choices, but it's also really allowed you to be
very clear on your point of view and also resonate

(36:40):
as strong as you do with the people who love
you and being okay with it. You won't everyone will
love you, and that's also part of stewarting a good brand.
I really appreciate your candor on that because I do
think it's probably a surprise to some people. The extent
to someone like you, who is a celebrity will go
to say, no, it's going to be this or that,

(37:00):
and that to me is you as a business person
also being a brand. So when we come back, we're
gonna ask you to play a little game of cooler
cringe with us, are you game?

Speaker 4 (37:12):
Of course?

Speaker 2 (37:12):
Okay, we'll be right back.

Speaker 3 (37:21):
And we're back with the one and Only Bobby Burke,
and we are ready to play some cool cringe. Bobby
all right, I'm going to kick it off, and Worsa
knows that I am just very far down the rabbit
hole and all things AI. So I got to ask
cooler cringe? Designing your home.

Speaker 4 (37:38):
With AI depends on what side your own. It's cringe
for a design world because I have recently become very
privy to some companies that are about to launch, who
have reached out to work with me in a digital sense,
that are going to turn the design world up on
its head. It's cool is hell? Like I was blown away,

(38:03):
But then I was also like, wow, we're about to
lose half of the design industry in the next ten
years or less in the next five. So on one hand,
I'm always so bad at these like hot or not
ones because I'm like, I always see both sides of
the coin.

Speaker 5 (38:22):
So this is.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
Another reason we're friends. I would say the same thing
my favorite movie.

Speaker 4 (38:30):
Either it's cringe. It's cringe for our industry, but it's
cool for the consumer, you know, Because again I am
all about democratizing design. I am all about really embracing
the way design can change your life, can affect your
mental health, can affect your relationships, your your work performance, everything.
So on one hand, I think it's amazing, and on

(38:51):
another hand, I'm like, I am glad, I am just
a few years out from retirement.

Speaker 1 (38:57):
Oh my goodness, all right, I'm going for the next one.
And I feel like our listeners would hate us if
we didn't. Now so cooler cringe being on reality TV show?

Speaker 4 (39:09):
Well, once again, we're very liberal.

Speaker 1 (39:13):
If you want to say cool and cringe, we're very
forgiving in that regard.

Speaker 5 (39:17):
You know, I think there's a lot of a lot
of reality television out there that is very cringe because
it's very fake and it's very like drama sells and
you know, just made up drama and.

Speaker 4 (39:33):
Just fights for the fuck's sake of it. So I
think that end of it is cringe. That being said,
I think it's been cool to be on Queer Eye
because Queer Eye has always really, legitimately and sincerely been
about helping people and it is ninety eight point nine

(39:55):
percent real. There were never those moments where we would
be sitting with a hero and something didn't get picked
them up on a mic, or something needed to be
say different, where a producer would come out and be like, Oh,
I need you guys to say that again, which happens
on reality all the time. That did not happen because
our number one job was to make sure that that
hero had a legit sincere experience, and the moment we

(40:19):
had to reshoot something, it took them out of the
real experience they we're having with us, and they're like, Oh,
I'm on a television show. I'm not sitting here with
somebody who's trying to help me. I'm on a television show.
Queer Eye very cool, and don't get me wrong, there
are other reality shows out there that aren't great as well,
but a lot of them I find to be crited.

Speaker 1 (40:38):
Well, if I can just editorialize my own cooler cringe
comment on that, why I've been a fan of that
show is and this has bearing too. I mean, of
course Netflix is only first introducing an advertising model, but
as advertisers, I love seeing content that actually isn't dumb
down and is feel good because I think there is
a belief that it's all lowest common denominator out there

(41:00):
and that's what sells.

Speaker 2 (41:01):
So for me, it's just sort of like a.

Speaker 1 (41:03):
Nice little vote for humanity that you know, a top
rated show can be one that's about really lifting people up.
Just not to be all sappy, but I'm just going
to put my cool stamp on that.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (41:15):
It was really great in the beginning because we came
into on the reality television scene where everything really was
like drama, drama, drama, drama, drama, and it was negative TV,
and that's what everybody industry thought they had to make
for it to be successful. Yeah, you know, and not
to not the Housewive Obviously, the Housewives have a massive

(41:37):
fan base. It is a huge brand. It works for
the type of TV that people want to watch. But
you it's negative, negative, negative, it's drama, drama, drama, and
as we know in the industry, ninety five percent of
that drama is not real, you know, it's manufactured. And
so when we came on the scene, we would hear

(41:58):
from producers and production companies all the time that every
time they would walk into the door of a network
to sell a new show, they would pitch the show
and the network will go, mmm, no, what do you
got that's like queer eye? What do you have that's positive?
What do you have that's going to make people feel good.

Speaker 3 (42:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (42:22):
I love that we not only were able to change
the world to have a positive effect on our viewers
that just watched our show, but we were actually able
to move the needle of the entire television industry to go, oh, actually, good, positive, uplifting,
joyful television sells and sells really well too. I don't

(42:44):
want to say that we were single handedly responsible for
the amount of like good, wholesome reality television that's doing
good in the world over the last ten years, but
I think we had a big hand in it. And
that's one thing that I'm really proud of of what
we did, is we were able to affect change across
the television industry.

Speaker 3 (43:03):
Well preach to that, and you know, we have a
lot of listeners that work in entertainment, so hopefully they're
all listening and we need more positivity out there. All Right,
I'm going to do a twist on cool or cringe
because you are from Mount Vernon as am I, except
you're from Mount Verne, Missouri. I'm from Mount Verne to
New York, right near the PRONX. So I'm going to
flip the core cringe a little bit, and I'm going

(43:26):
to do a preference. Is it LA or New York?

Speaker 4 (43:31):
Well, for this time in my life, LA. Yeah, New
York was amazing in my twenties and my early thirties
and then no more. You know, I was there for
twelve thirteen years. Again it was it was wonderful concrete
jungle where dreams are made of. You know, it will
make you or it will break you, and thank you.
I would never yeah, I would never be where I

(43:54):
am today if it wasn't for New York City. But
I love my life in LA. I would never want
to live in New York anymore, LA for right now.

Speaker 3 (44:02):
So my heart's a little bit sad hearing that, But
I think I kind of agree with you, just you know,
given where I am. You know, two kids, and I'm
with you, man, So.

Speaker 1 (44:11):
See, I would take your old option and say both.
All right, feels topical to ask you this. Cooler cringe
celebrities and politics. Cooler cringe.

Speaker 3 (44:26):
Mmm, I think you need to calm down, Morisa. Sorry,
that was a Taylor Swift reference.

Speaker 4 (44:32):
I got it.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
I got else.

Speaker 2 (44:38):
I thought you're also going to start singing it, And
I was.

Speaker 4 (44:41):
Like, Okay, do you mean celebrities running for office or
celebrities getting involved with you know, as surrogates.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
I meant more of the latter, although, gosh, you know,
since Reagan, that's not a weird question to ask about
running for office before Trump funsing speaking out on political
issues cool or cringe because it has a mixed vote.

Speaker 4 (45:06):
I think it's Yeah, I think it's important. Do I
lose a lot of followers when I do so? Do
I get a lot of hate? Do I probably one
hundred percent lose a lot of brand endorsements? Yes, But
I think it goes back to being real. You know,

(45:27):
I'm a person. Politics affect me. I should use my
voice to help affect change when I believe that there
are wrongs going on in the world. Just to sit
back and say nothing just because I don't want to
rock the boat on brand deals, that's not who I am.

Speaker 3 (45:41):
Good for you, man, good for you. Lections have consequences.
Politics affects us all and so again, you could ignore politics,
but politics won't ignore.

Speaker 4 (45:50):
You exactly, especially when we're in a marginalized group tanks
or hi right.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
My only little cringe on that is when celebrities speak
out without really knowing what they're talking about, and then
our influence it's like you've got to wield your power responsibly.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
That would be my only caveat on it, if I may.

Speaker 1 (46:08):
Bobby, thank you so much for joining us. This is
such a great discussion. I appreciate our friendship, but I
know our audience will especially appreciate everything that I got
to learn from you today.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
So thanks for coming on to brand New.

Speaker 3 (46:21):
Thank you so much, Bobby, and please keep on democratizing design.
It's so important because you don't want to walk into
an uglyho you.

Speaker 1 (46:27):
Really boom And now it's time for what's on your minds?
And our question this week comes from a listener named Joe,
and this is quite a hot question here.

Speaker 2 (46:43):
It is, is D E and I dead?

Speaker 1 (46:46):
Should we define d and I sure go for it? Diversity,
equity inclusion? It has a few different Is DAI dead?
Was it literally just a corporate trend? Oh? I'm glad
I read it so that Steve and you should go
first done answering it.

Speaker 3 (47:02):
This is obviously near and dear to my heart as
a champion of diversity, but I think we need to
acknowledge what has happened and the current incarnation of D
E and I I think is dead. It has become
so controversial. Where you now have with the change in

(47:24):
affirmative action, where you see the fatigue of everyone talking
about diversity, equity inclusion. Where you saw after the murder
of George Floyd, all these people hiring d E and
I executives, where you saw companies putting out all the
social media posts, and now to see the reversal because

(47:45):
of either political pressure or they haven't seen results business results.
They built out all these teams, they don't know what
it means or how it's actually driving growth in the business.
So we're at this inflection point where and I doesn't
work anymore. And I think that's a sad state of affairs.
But I also think you need to call a spade

(48:06):
a spade after the landmark change, you know, with the
Supreme Court where they struck down affirmative action. This week
on September eleventh, actually there was an article talking about
how Harvard's black enrollment has now dipped and it's actually
the cost of twenty twenty eight, only fourteen percent was
black compared to eighteen percent you know the year prior.

(48:28):
Hispanic students were also you know, kind of down. You know,
this is a problem because all of the ability to
have programs that were really going to create opportunities for
folks that have been disenfranchised, it's now viewed as a
bad thing, and no one wants to kind of step
into the controversy. They don't want to step in a
land mind. They don't want it to be a front
page article in the Wall Street Journal. So I think

(48:50):
that makes me really sad, but it does not take
away the need and where we are in society, the
browning of America is only going to continue. You know,
you're looking at today almost forty percent of the US
population being diverse, going to obviously the majority by twenty forty.
And again the future is now when you look at
where we are of gen Z you know, so all

(49:11):
of these metrics, they don't go away. If you need
to connect and engage with your consumer, you need to
have the ability to talk to them authentically through culture,
and you need to have diverse talent at your company
helping to engage and connect with them authentically. You just do.
So this is something where the current incarnation of d

(49:32):
and I I think is dead, but it doesn't take
away the business need. And what I would imagine is
that smart companies, smart leaders, smart brands will find a
way to reinvent quote unquote DNI so that is actually
more measurable, more actionable, and it drives business outcomes.

Speaker 1 (49:48):
What do you think, person, It's hard to add too
much to that because you said it so well, but
you know, I guess I have a couple of slightly
different perspectives WHI shall try to lend. One is that, yeah,
I guess as an initiative within a company and where
it's always felt a little uncomfortable to me, when it

(50:10):
felt more like checking boxes on report cards as opposed
to getting to the core of why diversity matters. And
that's that's always what's been problematic. So I think the
question was worded an interesting way about asking if it's
a trend, I think d and like you said it
very well, that incarnation of it is maybe dead or dying.

(50:32):
But what it's going to come down to, do companies
have values and what are those values? And do they
treat their values like a trend or their values actually enduring?
And if one of the values of the company is
that we actually believe that having diverse perspectives, voices, life
experiences makes us better, then you don't need a scorecard

(50:53):
for that. But of course we know that these programs
were created because that didn't just inherently happen about a push.
And by the way, to be clear, Dee and I
should include has included not always not just race, but
people included women. It's included people from any underrepresented group.

(51:15):
And I'll say one thing that I have not yet,
really ever spoken about cultural religious identity. It's been really,
really troubling in a year with unprecedented anti semitism that's
actually not been encompassed. And do you and I?

Speaker 2 (51:31):
So I think the spirit is what we need to retain.

Speaker 1 (51:35):
And I hope that any company that I'm associated with
will honor the spirit of it and not do it
for the metrics, but do it for the right reasons.
Maybe that's the ideal list in me, I.

Speaker 3 (51:46):
Think when you look at the workforce, when you look
at a gen Z workforce, this stuff is super important
to them, and so they will vote with their feet.
They won't go to companies that do not believe in
having an inclusive workforce or having you know, just looking
at the executives at the top, and if they don't
look like them, why would you want to be at
that type of company, and so I think those are
serious challenges. But again, when you think about where we

(52:07):
are right now, and again it's going to sound like
a drum beat, but at the dawn of the AI era,
when you're seeing all these large language models being built
by engineers in Silicon Valley and they are not diverse, no,
that is a problem. That is a major major issue
because you're going to get very I mean, all the
data on the public Internet has pretty much been you know,

(52:30):
kind of scraped and ingested into these large language models.
Now what happens is you're going to have the creation
of synthetic data, data coming from data, and that is
now going to just amplify and you know, kind.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
Of the ultimate perpetuation ripple effect.

Speaker 3 (52:47):
Absolutely all the biases, right, So we need to have
you know, the human training element involved in reinforcement learning,
you know, within artificial intelligence. And that is just another
reason why you're going to need to have things that
include diverse perspectives and you need it to have equity,
and again it needs to be inclusive. And so I

(53:08):
think this will be reincarnated in a different way, and
I hope it'll be more embedded into the culture to
the DNA of a company, because if not, your employees
will walk and they will demand and they will want
to see it, or they'll just go to other places
that actually do have it.

Speaker 1 (53:25):
Well. Thank you to Joe for that question and listen,
that's a perfect example of one where we're happy to
share what we think, but we also in turn want
to know what you think. So please like, drop us
a comment or a message and tell us do you
think we got it right, what's your point of view
on this topic, or shoot us your next question.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
You can send it.

Speaker 1 (53:45):
All to us at ideas at brand dashnew dot com.

Speaker 2 (53:49):
That's it for now.

Speaker 1 (53:50):
Thank you so much for joining us, and we look
forward to seeing you next time on Brand New