10/22/25: Graham Platner Accused Of Nazi Tattoo, KJP Covers Up Biden Age, Energy Price Spike, New Irish President

Ryan and Emily discuss Graham Platner accused of Nazi tattoo, KJP covers for Biden age disaster, energy prices spike as Trump axes grants, new Irish President.

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 3 (00:33):
Main Senate candidate Graham Platner appeared on Podsave America to
respond to some of the Reddit posts that were unearthed
by Democratic opposition researchers after the entry of Governor Janet
Mills into the Senate race, and while doing so, he
talked about new opo that is being circulated.

Speaker 4 (00:53):
Let's roll that and we're going to get into it.

Speaker 5 (00:55):
The reason that we are showing this video is because
at the very end you can see a tattoo on
yours and I've been told that some of your political
opponents are telling reporters that that tattoo has a Nazi affiliation,
and I would like to know is that accurate? Are
you a secret Nazi?

Speaker 6 (01:11):
I am not a secret Nazi. Actually, if you read
through my Reddit comments, I think you can pretty much
figure out where I stand on Nazism and anti Semitism
and racism in general. I would say a lifelong opponent.
And we went ashore and Split Croatia, myself and a
few of the other machine gun squad leaders, and we

(01:31):
got very inebriated, and we did what marines on liberty do,
and we decided to go get a tattoo, and we
went to a tattoo parlor in Split Croatia, and we
chose a terrifying looking skull and crossbones off the wall
because we were Marines and you know, skulls and crossbones
are a pretty standard mil military thing. And we got

(01:54):
those tattoos, and then we all moved on with our lives.

Speaker 7 (01:58):
All right.

Speaker 3 (01:59):
And so the story is that he went into a
Croatian tattoo parlor picked a skull and crossbones off the wall.
Turned out to be you know, have some Nazi symbolism
if you do walk drunkenly into a Croatian tattoo parlor.
You are extremely likely to want, especially if you ask
for a skull and crossboad, to wind up with some

(02:19):
type of Nazi symbolism on your body.

Speaker 8 (02:23):
Your first mistake is drunkenly walking into a Croatian tattoo parlor,
because it is a high likelihood you walk out.

Speaker 4 (02:29):
And so we can put up D two.

Speaker 3 (02:31):
You know, here's his here's the side by side, that's
the total Copier's gonna.

Speaker 8 (02:37):
I'm sure Soccer should come on the Friday Show and
get this is full download on this.

Speaker 4 (02:42):
So yeah, okay, pretty clear.

Speaker 3 (02:44):
I'm like, it's like grateful dead to me, but yes, clear.
So last night new APO came out which said that
at one point I read it, he said that he
wrote anti fas super soldier on his like armor either
I think it was in the army or maybe back
in the Marines. So we now have a candidate who

(03:05):
is being accused in the same day of being fascist
and anti fascist.

Speaker 9 (03:11):
They call it a full platner.

Speaker 4 (03:12):
The full Platner.

Speaker 3 (03:14):
Now, the way that this was revealed is that at
his sister in law's wedding and he talked about this
on pod Save America. He performed a Miley Cyrus song
with his shirt off and somebody and that's how people notice,
Wait a minute, what's this gull and Crossbones you got
on there? So we have to watch a little bit
of grand Platter performing Miley Cyrus. Okay, so I over

(03:37):
promised and underdelivered here. We can't actually play this because
YouTube is going to take down the video. If we
played some Miley Cyrus, you will just you know the
song though, this is wrecking Ball. This is Graham Platner
singing wrecking Ball to his entire family.

Speaker 9 (03:54):
You said he was shirtless, he is also pantless.

Speaker 3 (03:57):
And he said those are his marine Silky's.

Speaker 8 (04:01):
Absolutely hammered and sege Miley Cyrus. That's how people found
the tattoo. And Ryan, you keep mentioning OPO shorthand for
opposition research, meaning that another campaign has pays people to
dig up this information, put it in a file, and
then the campaign drips it out to different media outlets,

(04:21):
sort of in in a strategic way to maximize the pain.
So maybe they're still sitting on stuff. Maybe they did
this because Janet Mills, as soon as she announced their
candidacy got this predictable wave of backlash for being seventy
seven years old and trying to become a senator with
a six year term amidst all of this genuine concern
about Democrats hiding Biden's infirmities. So the OPO comes out

(04:47):
right away. That's what this APPO very clearly is. We
discussed last week. Chrystal and I discussed last week how
bizarre it was when Platner's old p Hustle Reddit posts
popped that they had been screencapped within hours of them
being posted, and they were from years ago, so before
anybody seemingly knew he had a career. Someone unless there's

(05:09):
a way on the Internet to go back and make
it to find these posts in a way that shows
they were posted one hour ago, three days ago, and
screenshot them when they popped in the k file CNN story.

Speaker 9 (05:21):
It looks like somebody screenshot at.

Speaker 8 (05:23):
Them years ago, and maybe he had some enemies that
got were somehow old.

Speaker 3 (05:28):
It was wayback machine capturing them. Could that have been it?

Speaker 8 (05:31):
I mean, it's pretty hard to believe that wayback Machine
was capturing things in a way that showed up as
three hours ago from twenty twenty or twenty twenty one. Right, yeah,
I don't know, it's all weird, but that is just
to say this is opposition research very clearly.

Speaker 9 (05:46):
It's not.

Speaker 8 (05:46):
Oh absolutely people organically stumbling into these videos. And Plattner
preempted it by going on pod save and releasing the
video himself.

Speaker 9 (05:54):
It was a pretty smart move.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
And releasing it all right after Mills announces her run
just was kind of an in your face, like, this
is zoppo from us and it's not obvious yet. You
know how this is going to play out. The DC
political class is telling me he's cooked. They told me
that Donald Trump was cooked Bobby thirty five different times

(06:18):
or more than that.

Speaker 9 (06:19):
And Trump is singular of course.

Speaker 3 (06:21):
Now his former political director, who seems to have had
a real falling out and has left the campaign.

Speaker 4 (06:27):
We can put up this next element. Genevieve MacDonald.

Speaker 3 (06:30):
She wrote, I've run out of self restraint worse than
when I don't even Actually I don't know what's going
on with the reddeats. Maybe you can tell me this,
but Graham has an anti Semitic tattoo on his chest.

Speaker 4 (06:40):
He's not an.

Speaker 3 (06:40):
Idiot, he's a military history buff. Maybe he didn't know
it when he got it, but he got it years ago,
and he should have had it covered up because he
knows damn well what it means. His campaign released it
themselves to some podcast bros, along with a video of
him shirtless and drunk at a wedding to try to get.

Speaker 4 (06:55):
Ahead of it.

Speaker 3 (06:55):
The vault is open for the GOP to effing crush
any dreams we had in the general and literally everyone
I know is fighting with each other on social media.
We cannot be this painfully stupid. And so the best
argument I've heard has been, yeah, okay, Like, it seems
extremely plausible that some drunken marines walked in and got
a skull and crossbones to but you should you should

(07:15):
cover it up once it once you realized what it is.
I think that's a reasonable criticism, unless you're doing some
like grateful dead subversion, where like we're rejecting the potency
of this thing by like draining it of its meaning.

Speaker 4 (07:33):
I don't like, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (07:34):
So we got you know, but now, according to Platner,
he only just learned of this. According to some reporting
from anonymous acquaintances of his from ten years ago, he
used to be shirtless in the tune in which I.

Speaker 4 (07:48):
Never saw you never saw that. I saw that.

Speaker 3 (07:51):
And would talk about it that that he kind of
knew he had accidentally gotten this thing, but it knew
what it was by ten years ago.

Speaker 8 (07:59):
But the idea that it makes him a secret Nazi
is completely insane.

Speaker 3 (08:02):
Now, would it would make him kind of an idiot?
Yeah maybe or something like that or reckless like not
getting rid of it, but go ahead.

Speaker 8 (08:12):
Well, he clearly never thought that he was going to
run for Senate and so he just like was a
sort of I don't know if this is probably too derogatory,
but kind of a fail son who was bopping around
and struggling a lot after coming back from.

Speaker 9 (08:25):
The horrors of Fallujah.

Speaker 8 (08:27):
And yeah, it's like, probably it was bartending and probably
not thinking too hard about whether or not he was
ruining his career by telling this amusing story on how
the point is this has become a political controversy because
his opponents are weaponizing it cynically, and that's what politics is.
Is not surprising if your Janet Mills, of course you're

(08:47):
using this. Does Janet Mills literally think Graham Platner is
a secret Nazi?

Speaker 10 (08:51):
No?

Speaker 8 (08:51):
Is she trying to convince the people of Maine that
he's a secret Nazi. Yes, that is completely insane. And
this entire, this entire controversy with his Reddit posts will
have you believe that he's some type of anarchist and
also that he's a communist and a Nazi because he's
been posting weird shit on the Internet for years and

(09:15):
has a tattoo. No, he's literally just like a stoner
who posted all kinds of like his musings on the
Internet over a period of time, and who served and
has struggled a lot because of his service. And that's
what makes politics so insufferable is that this entire DC
scaffolding tries to suppress and just smuggle in the crib

(09:40):
any normal American who wants to get into politics, because
normal Americans are not perfectly polished.

Speaker 9 (09:47):
They're not.

Speaker 8 (09:49):
Margine Taylor Green and Grim Plattner like, they're not used
to being scripted political robots. And that comes with some
genuine baggage, Like it's genuinely baggage that you have an
Tazzi tattoo.

Speaker 9 (10:00):
You should have gotten rid of that shit.

Speaker 4 (10:02):
Instead of skeletons in the closet.

Speaker 3 (10:03):
You got skeletons inked on your Justin on the and
I would say, just ethically, like if if anybody has
a Nazi tattoo that they got drunkenly accidentally, when you
learn that, you should you should cover it up. Like
that's what I would do about it if I had that.

Speaker 4 (10:17):
Yeah, but if he just.

Speaker 3 (10:19):
Learned about it now, maybe he will get it covered up.

Speaker 4 (10:22):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (10:23):
Now from a political perspective, I don't think that you
disqualify a candidate. And we're going to talk in a
moment to Rocan about this, who has endorsed Platter. I
don't think that if the Democratic Party wants to get
become a majoritarian party again and get normal people and
particularly men to support them, they cannot say that if

(10:45):
you have bad posts on Reddit or mistakes in your past,
that you can't run in the future, because then all
you're going to get is Pete Buddha judges. And actually
it appears to be a Pete Buddha judge, a guy
from Pete Booda Judges orbit who's been doing this.

Speaker 4 (11:01):
OPO will have more reporting on that soon.

Speaker 3 (11:05):
Otherwise you you become just a party of pets. Mayor
Pete's and we have we have seen that that does
not work. So you've already tried that. Now you've got
to try the other things. And it's not going to
be easy the whole time.

Speaker 9 (11:20):
You're going to have some tolerance for normal people.

Speaker 3 (11:23):
Yeah, Chuck Schumer seems to think that Janet Mills is
the safe pick. They have had the safe pick five times.
And Susan Collins's going strong. All right, So let's bring
in Representative Rocanna joining us now to discuss what is
truly a crucial crossroads for Democrats. Is Representative Rocana, who
endorsed Graham Platner early and has stood by him so far. Congress,

(11:46):
and kinda thanks for joining us. Yes, yes, And I
was going to ask that because you're in this oppo
kind of vicious cycle where it's it's you know, it's
going to be a hit after hit after hit, and
people are going to coming back to Okay, what about now?

Speaker 4 (12:02):
What about now? What about now?

Speaker 3 (12:04):
I want to start with Chuck Schumer, who was asked
about the main Senate race and came out effectively with
an unsurprising endorsement of Janet Mills, who's the main governor.

Speaker 4 (12:15):
Let's roll D five.

Speaker 5 (12:16):
Here, are you supporting Governor Janet Mills in the primary,
and do you consider Grand Platner's recently unearthed comments disqualifying.

Speaker 11 (12:22):
Look, got to let the people of Maine decide the second.
We think that Janet Mills is the best candidate to
retire Susan Collins. She's a tested two term governor and
the people of Maine have an enormous amount of affection
and respect for her.

Speaker 3 (12:38):
All right, So she's a tested two term governor. I've
seen that phrase going around. They seem to like the
phrase tested, contrasting that with Platner, who they're implying and
you know correctly, is untested. So what's your response when
you see that from Chuck Schumer?

Speaker 7 (12:57):
Well, this is the game the establishment plays.

Speaker 12 (13:00):
I had to go up against an incumbent twice and
all the incumbents rallied around my content. And the reason
that they do this is they know these people, and
it's a club. And if you're part of the club,
then you get the blacking of the d SEC and Sumer.
And if you don't know them, and if you don't
know the donors, you don't And people are tired of it.

(13:22):
They're tired of the d SEC putting its thumb on
the scale in Maine, Texas.

Speaker 7 (13:29):
And Michigan in the Senate primaries.

Speaker 12 (13:32):
I thought they learned a lesson from twenty sixteen that
the party should stay neutral. Now, the friend of the
party was pretty neutral in twenty twenty in the primary elections,
but they need to be the presidential primaries.

Speaker 7 (13:43):
They need to do that now for Senate and House races.

Speaker 12 (13:46):
And my view is it actually just fuels Platner's campaign.

Speaker 8 (13:50):
Well, yeah, I was going to ask, does the DSc
seem to have it not just the DSCC, but like
the kind of official party establishment seem to have any
awareness that a tax on Platner could potentially backfire? Do
they seem to have any awareness of what you were
just describing is that people are sick of it. We
can put this next element on the screen. This is
a report from Punchboll's John Bresihan, who says, when pressed

(14:11):
on Platner's Nazi tattoos, Sanders Bernie Sanders lashed out at
the quote corrupt campaign finance system, adding we don't have
enough candidates in this country that will take on the
powers that be and fight for the working class.

Speaker 9 (14:23):
Now that's not.

Speaker 8 (14:23):
Surprising from Bernie Sanders congressman. But do they seem to
have any sense of awareness that's actually how a lot
of average Democratic voters react to this type of thing.

Speaker 12 (14:33):
I don't think they understand how disconnected the Beltway is
from the base.

Speaker 7 (14:38):
I mean, two thirds of.

Speaker 12 (14:39):
Democratic voters want new leaders And why do they want
new leaders First, the current leadership got us two terms
of Donald Trump, Like, how can we say that's a success?
By definition, it's a failure in any sports team, in
any business, if you hit leadership and you kept losing,
you would replace the leadership. The second point is that

(15:02):
they are concerned that when you are working class candidates
like but Graham Platner, and they are willing to tax billionaires,
and they're willing to call out the horrors of the
war and guys, they're going to face huge scrutiny. And
these aren't perfect candidates, but they want people who are
going to question the establishment because they're not concerned about.

Speaker 7 (15:23):
Candidate's perfect biography. They're condoncerned about whether they're going to
fight for them.

Speaker 3 (15:28):
What about the argument from Schumer that it's just too
much of a risk to run somebody like this, given
the weaknesses that he has, you're going to get hit
with these ads. You know he's anti fi, he's also
a fascist, and therefore you need to run somebody tested
and safer like Janet Mills. What about the pure kind

(15:50):
of pragmatic argument they're making.

Speaker 12 (15:52):
We tried to say for alternative last the time against
was in Collins. I respectfully forget the candidate's name, but
she was the safe choice that you lost badly. And
we've tried the safe candidate a number of times against
Donald Trump. I mean Clinton, Hillary Clint was the safe choice.
Biden was the safe choice. Harris was the safe choice.

(16:14):
The safe choices aren't working. Why the American people keep
telling us they want change, They want something that's going
to take on the system. So why are we trying
the old playbook again and again and again. And by
the way, the main voters this is one place I
do agree with centaer Sor.

Speaker 7 (16:31):
It's for main voters to decide.

Speaker 12 (16:33):
Let them decide, they'll be able to factor in electability.
You don't need to do oppo dumps and put your
thumb on the scale.

Speaker 7 (16:40):
Let there be a contest as it is. Mills starts
out with so many advantages.

Speaker 12 (16:44):
She has more name mighty, she's a two Trump governor,
she has more fundraising.

Speaker 7 (16:48):
Do you really need to do the APO dump?

Speaker 8 (16:50):
I mean, come on, bring us inside conversations station that
you can. What are happening behind the scenes about the
Platiner Oppo dump? That's we're now like a week in
two you had endorsed Platners. So I imagine Congressman, you're getting
some feedback, maybe some heat from people who say, what
are you doing standing by this guy? What's the reaction like,

(17:14):
what are the conversations like behind the scenes about what
the party should do when it comes to Platner.

Speaker 12 (17:19):
Well, I am getting some point back, And what I
say is, look, I think some of the comments were
despicable and obviously no one should be having a tattoo
and that's horrendous. But we have to ask a fundamental
question in this country, and that is do we want
our political governing class to be like the classmates I

(17:42):
had at Gille law School, some of them who dreamed
of being president of the United States from the age
of twelve, who were not wanting to go to any
parties because they were considered someone would take a picture
of them and were scripting their lives to be on
the Supreme Court of the Senate or President from the
day they were student body press. Or do we want

(18:03):
normal people also having a chance at these offices, who
make mistakes, who have regrets, who say done things and
will grow.

Speaker 7 (18:11):
And really that's the question.

Speaker 12 (18:13):
And if you want all my ill law school buddies
to be running America, fine, I think some of the
ill law school folks are fine.

Speaker 7 (18:21):
But I'd like to have a more cross section of
America running the country. That's really the issue.

Speaker 3 (18:26):
Yeah, I think the bigger problem is that the country
has had an opportunity to address that question themselves, and
they have rejected those yell kids like they're like, no, actually, this.

Speaker 4 (18:39):
Isn't this isn't who we want.

Speaker 3 (18:41):
So I'm wondering if it might actually end up being
beneficial to Platner here because he has you know, a
lot of what politics is nowadays is people want to
know who your enemies are and what people are saying
about you. And there's something kind of so absurd about
coming after a marine for a skull and bones tattoo

(19:04):
that I feel like it might make his own It
might make his critics look deeply out of touch, even
acknowledging like Okay, now that he's learned that that says
actually a Nazi tattoo, shod probably do something about it.

Speaker 4 (19:20):
We need to, and we'll see what he does about it.

Speaker 3 (19:23):
But the broader question of getting attacked for a tattoo
in a country that is a wash in ink strikes
me as could actually be beneficial to him.

Speaker 12 (19:32):
Finally, what's beneficial to him is the sense that the
entire establishment is coming down on him, that you have
a powerful Senate majority leader opposing him, you have the
traditional media pundits opposing him, and then it actually gives
him a chance to say, look, I'm actually changed. This
is what they're afraid of. They're afraid of my positions

(19:54):
and taxing wealth and standing up with the working class
and being for many, care for all in calling or
not having a blank checked and then y out that's
why they're.

Speaker 7 (20:03):
Going after me. But I think he's also handled it well.

Speaker 12 (20:06):
I mean, he's been honest, he's been transparent, he's admitted
wrong a lot of times in my view, and politics,
he's quote unquote scandals.

Speaker 7 (20:14):
It's more about a test of how you handle it.
Do people think.

Speaker 12 (20:17):
You're honest, Do they think you're straightforward? Do they think
you understand what the issue is? None of us are perfect.
There have been when I've run issues. Everyone has criticisms,
and I think what people are saying is, okay, does
this person is he dealing with it in a way
that reflects character?

Speaker 7 (20:35):
So it's less about what Graham Platner said.

Speaker 12 (20:37):
It's more about what his character is today than I
think will determine the success of his campaign.

Speaker 8 (20:42):
Last question for me, Ryan is posted to the effect
that this is a really crucial test for the Democratic
Party congressmen. Do you see that in the same way,
Is this a sort of test for the party going
forward as to whether it'll be a party of you know,
just Pete Boodha Judge, people who wanted to be presidents
and they were student body president as you mentioned, congressman,

(21:03):
or a party for all Americans, average Americans, working class Americans.

Speaker 7 (21:08):
I think it is a big test. It's a test
of two things. One is this party going to allow
for outside your voices, you know, even though I, for example.

Speaker 12 (21:16):
Went to yet law school as a son of Indian immigrants,
and not having a kind of the third in my
name or a legacy. I always felt a little bit
on the outside of this quote unquote roomed governing class.
But are we going to allow people who have had
unconventional paths, whether it's Grand Platner, whether it's Aram Mandani,
whoever it is, to be part of the conversation. But

(21:37):
there's this broader issue, and that is are we going
to be a politics of ideas and vision and substance?
Are we going to be a politics of personal destruction
and scandal and.

Speaker 7 (21:48):
Being against things.

Speaker 12 (21:49):
So much of the Democratic brand right now is anti Trump.

Speaker 7 (21:53):
It's trying to point.

Speaker 12 (21:56):
Out all his flaws, and now we're sort of trying
to point out all the flaws of Platner. How about
we be a party that stands for ideas going forward,
taxing billionaires, being for medicare for all, having childcare, having
in human rights, fotiporn policy, having a job's vision in
the world of ali. I think that the question is

(22:18):
are we going to be a capable of being a
party of big politics with big ideas.

Speaker 7 (22:23):
That's the real test.

Speaker 3 (22:25):
And when it comes to resolving this tattoo question, do
you think that Platner could get off the hook if
he said that actually this is an homage to the
Aza Battalion or I'm going to cover it up with
an A brigade tattoo.

Speaker 4 (22:39):
Do you think that would kind of get get him?

Speaker 3 (22:41):
Because the party establishment it seems okay with Nazi regalia
in some circumstances.

Speaker 12 (22:47):
Right, And I think only point zero zero one percent
of the American people would understand that.

Speaker 4 (22:53):
They're all in Washington, d c.

Speaker 7 (22:55):
But I led a letter a long.

Speaker 12 (22:58):
Time ago talking about that issue in Ukraine and how
we needed to confront that anti Semitism. I think the
way Platter is dealing with it though it's fine, which
is to say I regret it, I'm going.

Speaker 7 (23:12):
To remove it.

Speaker 12 (23:14):
It was something that I'm not proud of, but that
there are a lot of people like him who do
things that they regret, and the question is how they
grow and what type of person they are.

Speaker 7 (23:27):
But you know, look, I.

Speaker 12 (23:28):
Don't agree with a lot of President Clinton's politics today
in terms of some.

Speaker 7 (23:32):
Of the policies.

Speaker 12 (23:34):
But one of the things he said, and you ensure
is they're making it all about my character and I'm
making it all about yours. I'm going to be doing
this to see what is in it for you? And
what we can do for you. Richard Nixon famously said
American politicians are like toilet fixtures.

Speaker 7 (23:51):
They don't have to look beautiful. People just want to
make sure they work.

Speaker 12 (23:54):
And ultimately, what people are judged on is what is
your ideas for approving the material lives of America? And
the American pre game is done, what if your lives
for taking on power? And I think that's where the
election is going to be one or loss.

Speaker 3 (24:08):
I think you said President Clinton. I think you meant
President Trump that one. Yeah. But Congress and Conna, thank
you so much for joining us. This is a fascinating
moment for Democrats. Really appreciate you being here.

Speaker 7 (24:21):
Thank you, thank you, appreciate it all.

Speaker 4 (24:23):
Right. Up next, Kren Jean Pierre.

Speaker 8 (24:28):
Former White House Press Secretary Karine Jean Pierre is on
a book tour selling her new book called Independent, which
is out and doesn't seem to be demonstrating much independence.
We have an incredible mashup of Karan Jean Pierre reacting
to various people in the media who are now pretending
to be very tough on this question of Biden's health

(24:49):
cover up.

Speaker 9 (24:50):
So let's go ahead and roll E.

Speaker 8 (24:52):
One to see how Karine Jean Pierre is taking these questions.

Speaker 13 (24:57):
I got to see Joe Biden almost every day, and
this is a question.

Speaker 9 (25:00):
That I take very serious.

Speaker 13 (25:02):
I want everybody to know that I take this question
incredibly seriously.

Speaker 9 (25:07):
I do.

Speaker 13 (25:07):
I take this so seriously.

Speaker 9 (25:10):
I take this so seriously. She's so bad at this.

Speaker 3 (25:13):
She was so bad.

Speaker 9 (25:15):
That's right, she's serious.

Speaker 8 (25:16):
At least we know that, but she's like, this is
why she was a I think she's actually one of
the worst White House press secretaries, not for any political reasons,
but just it was so I mean, with her, you
always felt the trick if your press secretary is to
use the talking points without sounding like you're on the
talking points. You always know that she's like reading off
a script in her head when she's doing it, and

(25:38):
it sounds so inauthentic.

Speaker 9 (25:39):
And dare I.

Speaker 8 (25:40):
Say Unindependent just the title of a book she's selling
by saying the Democratic Party was insufficiently pro Biden. That
is her take in this book that the party was
not loyal enough to Joe Biden, which is why she's
no longer a Democrat but is now identifying as an independent.
Just an incredible concept. We were talking about the Galaxy

(26:01):
Brain take earlier. This is a real Galaxy Brain at
book length take from Cream Jumpier.

Speaker 3 (26:07):
It's not working. I just checked the Amazon page. The
book came out yesterday at one hundred and ninety two pages,
which is extremely thin, by the way, for a book
they want about thirty bucks for it. Its rank is
currently twenty four and seven for a book that was
on an author who was on Colbert.

Speaker 4 (26:26):
The view.

Speaker 3 (26:29):
All of these other things that we're showing you here
like that, that's not good.

Speaker 4 (26:33):
That twenty four.

Speaker 3 (26:34):
Thousand means you maybe sold fifty copies or one hundred
copies on Amazon over the last day. Like, that's just
a rough gauge. It's not good. I think we have
a couple more we can do.

Speaker 4 (26:47):
E two.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
Here she is on Colbert, where she got There aren't
many Democrats to get a rough ride on Colbert, but
she kind of did. Let's roll E two.

Speaker 14 (26:54):
I saw a guy who I had not seen backstage
at the benefit that I did. Seemed like a dramatically
different person, and at eighty one years old, that's not
entirely unexpected.

Speaker 9 (27:05):
You can imagine why people got so worried.

Speaker 13 (27:08):
So a couple of things I got to see Joe
Biden almost every day, and this is a question that
I take very seriously. I never no one has ever
said he has an age. No one ever said that
he would make jokes about it. He would acknowledge it,
and he would say, yes, I know. I don't speak
this as well as I used to. I don't walk
as well as I used to. No one is saying

(27:29):
that he didn't age. I'm talking about was he did
he have the questions that I was getting, the mental acuity.

Speaker 9 (27:35):
Was he able to govern?

Speaker 13 (27:37):
And the man that I saw nearly every day was
someone who was engaging, understood policy, and was always putting
the American people first. And it showed. It showed in
what we were able to get done.

Speaker 14 (27:54):
I remember I were going to be a questioned his
heart or his policies, but it takes more than that
to be the President the United States. And in a
moment of great pressure on stage, we saw someone shock
us and worry us, and nothing could assuage that worry.
So I don't think it was necessarily a betrayal of
Joe Biden, as other people saying, we don't think we

(28:17):
were shown Joe Biden, that you saw.

Speaker 13 (28:20):
I saw every day a really ugly assault on someone
who had fifty plus years of experience and who again objectively,
had done a good job as President of the United States,
and it was heartbreaking to see that type of behavior.

Speaker 14 (28:40):
I think all of that, everything you're saying, I cannot
fault the factual basis of what you're saying or your
feelings about it. But what happened was the debate performance.

Speaker 13 (28:53):
Everything is downstream of that, And no one is saying
that the debate performance wasn't shocking.

Speaker 9 (29:00):
Was it a disappointment. No one is saying it's such
a light I use your I use your world.

Speaker 14 (29:07):
Look listen, we're never going to agree on this.

Speaker 3 (29:10):
And she also appeared on CBS Sunday Morning and with
Tim Miller will Throw Me three.

Speaker 13 (29:18):
You even write koreeen that you were on the plane
with him going to the debate and you didn't see anything. Well,
when we were on the Air Force one going on
the going to the debate, you got to remember his
campaign people were on the team, his family was on
the team. I actually was one of those rare trips
that I didn't really see him until after the debate,
even though I was on the plane so really I

(29:39):
take I want everybody to know that I take this
question incredibly seriously.

Speaker 9 (29:45):
I do.

Speaker 13 (29:46):
I was his White House Press secretary, which means I
had a role that saw him practically every day and
traveled with him. You saw for more than ninety five percent.
We've always said, we're not going to say, oh, he
didn't age.

Speaker 10 (29:57):
He aged, and.

Speaker 9 (29:58):
He poked fun at it.

Speaker 13 (29:59):
We always owned up and with age comes what happens
when you get older, which is what I I But
when we talk about the mental acuity, and again I
take this very very seriously, I never saw anyone who
wasn't there. I saw someone who was always engaged. I
saw someone who understood policy, pushed us on the policy,

(30:21):
and also understood history.

Speaker 10 (30:24):
And he.

Speaker 7 (30:26):
Couldn't talk about.

Speaker 13 (30:28):
Wait, first of all, First of all, you're he did
talk about them, whether it broke through or not.

Speaker 9 (30:34):
He did, Tim, he did talk.

Speaker 10 (30:36):
About because he talked way less to the press than
Donald Trump does when he wasn't out there at all.

Speaker 4 (30:42):
He wasn't good off the cuff.

Speaker 7 (30:45):
Let's just be real.

Speaker 13 (30:48):
That's not true. Tim, You're conflating all of it. That's
what you're No. You're first, you're telling me he didn't
talk well about it, then you're telling me he didn't.

Speaker 12 (30:55):
Talk at all.

Speaker 7 (30:56):
He didn't do either.

Speaker 10 (30:57):
He didn't talk very often, and when he did, it
wasn't very good.

Speaker 13 (31:01):
We weren't paying attention to what we were doing at
the White House, but.

Speaker 7 (31:03):
I paid attention to that. I'm with you.

Speaker 3 (31:06):
Performance for KJP to try to tell the American public,
or tell American public through Tim Miller that he addressed
the press frequently and did so with the plumb incredible.
She does not take this seriously, despite her claims repeatedly
to the contrary.

Speaker 8 (31:24):
Does she think she takes it seriously? I mean, that's like,
what does she think anybody is buying this? What is
the market for this that she thinks exists? It's like,
actually really impossible to imagine. The only reason, by the
way she's getting tough questions now, I actually think this
might explain some of it is she doesn't expect to
be treated this way by the media because she really
never was when she had any power. Right when she

(31:45):
was in charge of the Biden White House's communications, everyone
was bullied out of covering Biden's health. Every single network
that is now acting as though she's the worst person
in the world was intimidated by her because she said,
we aren't give you access if you report on this.
We're not like, listen to what Alex Thompson has said
about this. That's how people who tried to cover that

(32:06):
story were treated by the Biden White House. Now that
she has no power because she is so attached to
the Biden legacy and the Biden brand, which is out
of favor in the Democratic Party. The Biden's no longer
have power in the Democratic Party. It's only then that
people in the media turn on her. And I don't
think she was expecting it. I don't think she is
used to being treated this way by the media. In fact,
in one of those interviews, she clutches. It was a

(32:29):
morning Joe. She clutches. They said, she goes, I'm a
black queer woman and people like me get taken for granted,
as though it would be her shield from tough criticism.
But Biden's are out of power. They don't have any
clout left in the dumb Party. So she said, like
actually not being treated with kid gloves and withering under it.

Speaker 7 (32:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:47):
The theme of the book is that the party betrayed
the party betrayed Joe Biden. But I think you're right
that she feels a sense of betrayal as well, or
maybe primarily.

Speaker 4 (32:59):
And also that entire theme.

Speaker 3 (33:03):
Raises a question of entitlement, like why is Joe Biden
entitled to a second term when he didn't even he
betrayed the American people by suggesting to them that he
was going to be a bridge to the next generation,
he was going to be a one term candidate and
then barreled ahead trying to run. If there was a betrayal,

(33:26):
he's the one that carried out the betrayal. But the
idea that of a betrayal requires the public owing him something,
and no politician has owed anything, so that the whole
premise kind of falls apart there.

Speaker 8 (33:43):
I think that has to I mean, that's the only
way that I can explain what's happening with Koreean drump
Pierre so.

Speaker 9 (33:50):
God.

Speaker 8 (33:50):
He looked up the book sales, so I was wondering
how it was doing after seeing.

Speaker 3 (33:53):
All of this, I just checked ten Vogel's book is
doing better.

Speaker 8 (33:57):
Let's go all right, Well, get another reminder to tune
in for our weekend interview with Ken Vogel. I was
going to say, we'll continue to follow the story in
the future, but I doubt we will.

Speaker 4 (34:06):
Let's hope here we don't.

Speaker 3 (34:07):
All right up next to John Powers, CEO of Clean Capital,
to talk about why you're paying so much in your
electric bill. Democrats are pushing back hard against the Trump
administration for canceling billions of dollars worth of energy projects.
If we can put up the first element on the
screen here, Martin Heinrich, the top Democrat on the Energy Committee,

(34:28):
is saying that as a result of the cancelation of
over seven billion dollars worth of contracts, we're going to
see staggering increases in energy prices for the American people.

Speaker 4 (34:42):
And he argues that they're done.

Speaker 3 (34:44):
They're canceled completely illegally because contracts, the money had already
been appropriated by the Biden administration, and contracts had already
been reached on these projects. He also noted that coincidentally,
two hundred and eighteen of the two hundred and thirty
three projects, arranging from battery storage to hydrogen solar, we're
in states with Democratic governors.

Speaker 4 (35:06):
Shocking.

Speaker 3 (35:07):
Now, energy that's produced in blue states, by the way,
does go out to red states. But whatever, anyway, I
put up this next element. This is on the heels
of this the Trump administration's cancelation of the largest what
was going to be the largest solar con solar facility

(35:27):
in the countries would produce six point two gigawatts of
energy when it was finished. That's enough to power two
million homes. This was out in the in the Southwest,
which is like everybody energy starved. So to walk us
through you know what all what all this means is
John Powers. He's the CEO of Clean Capital and he's

(35:50):
joining us to joining us this morning.

Speaker 4 (35:53):
John, Welcome to Breaking Points.

Speaker 3 (35:54):
Thank you, thanks for having me and so so, John,
can you talk to us a little bit about what
the energy industry is facing broadly, but the and clean
energy industry in particular over the last year.

Speaker 10 (36:11):
Yeah, I mean the last six months in particular have
been incredibly challenging really from an understanding of where we're going.
You know, we have invested over a billion a half
dollars in over twenty seven states. We've built over half
a gig go out worth of projects and are selling
to customers that want to buy our electricity, everyone from
fortune hundreds to folks buying community solar. The reality is

(36:32):
there's a massive demand for what we do, but the
policy uncertainty that this administration is putting in front of
us really has put huge roadblocks into getting projects built.
In finance. The reality is, though, that as electricity prices
continue to rise in this country, and they are rising
for a very simple reason, there's a growing demand like
we've never seen before. Right the last twenty years, we've

(36:54):
got a pretty steady state demand in this country. But
because the data centers and other electrification of everything efforts,
electricity prices are going up significantly. Here in Buffalo where
I am, they expected twenty percent rate height next year.
So what we're doing is adjusting to that new reality
and looking to where we and how we can build projects.

Speaker 9 (37:17):
Which Biden Bill was at the IRA, I forget. I
always mix up.

Speaker 4 (37:20):
The IRA BBB IRA.

Speaker 8 (37:22):
Yeah, BBBB game IRA, and then there's the OBBB at
this administration. But tell us maybe a little bit about
how with the IRA credits there were some adaptations that
had to be made afterwards to get stuff actually built
and off of the ground.

Speaker 9 (37:37):
And that was in the process when.

Speaker 8 (37:40):
The Trump administration came in and canceled a lot of this,
So what is your Maybe you can give us a
sense of sort of the trajectory or the plateau might
be a better word to use at this point.

Speaker 10 (37:51):
Yeah, hopefully it's not a plateau first of all. And
I think we have to even step back further than
the Biden legislation from a few years ago and look
at what's happened of the last decade in this Really
it was a truly a nascent industry and is you know,
looking back as far as twenty ten, and what has
happened as policy is aligned, technology has proven out and
finance has really moved behind this industry. We've seen it

(38:13):
grow and the demand for the power that we produce
is significant. So when major corporations like Walmart, where the
tech companies and others are signing long term power arrangements
for electricity today, they never did that fifteen years ago, right,
they just bought in the utility. But they're seeing better
ways of budget their electricity. When you think about things
like solar, right, the input to the solar the sun

(38:35):
doesn't change, so you can really budget out your power.
Over twenty years, those economics have really proved themselves out.
It's brought efficiency to our market. We've gotten better at
being able to build these things and get them in
the ground, and as a result, our market is really flourished.
And unfortunately, you know, we were at a really amazing
point literally at the beginning of this year, where we went,

(38:56):
for instance, from fourteenth in the world in solar manufacturing
the third because incentives behind things like the IRA We're
getting manufacturing built. By the way, in many Republican districts.
The governor Georgia is a great example of someone who
took wild advantage of this and went to an area
in Georgia where it was literally dying. It was at
the carpet center of the world that was dying from manufacturing,

(39:18):
attracted major solar manufacturers and now we will be a
net exporter of solar panels. We were at least on
track to do that in the next two years, right,
So those policies were working. This administration forecasted a year
ago and Trump was in Houston and raised a billion
dollars from the fossil pool and ort said, of the
fossil fool executives, give me a billion dollars, I'm gonna

(39:38):
save your industry. Put a fracking executive in charge of
the Department of Energy and now has it been doing
everything they can to slow the role of the of
what is in solar a seventy billion dollar industry. Right,
So back to your question, we now have a new
policy landscape to execute under and from clean Capital's perspective,
we're looking at where and how we can invest in projects. Unfortunately,

(40:02):
you know it's they've narrowed the scope or where we
can go. But it doesn't mean we're not building projects.
We just had a ribbon cutting yesterday here in western
New York where we put solar on a brown field
that was at one point one of the most polluted
parts of the entire country.

Speaker 3 (40:15):
So what Trump will say is that, look, wind and
solar is a scam. Energy should be something that you
make money from, not something that you have to subsidize.
So what is the what is the counter argument to
his claim there?

Speaker 10 (40:32):
Well, first of all, they're wildly subs poss fuel has
been subsidized for one hundred plus year, so that the
scam is actually the opposite. Right, we are have spent
billions of not trillions, in fossil fuel subsidies. So let's
just start off with Yeah, let's have a level playing field,
and we you know we are. We are bringing infrastructure
capital to grow things like solar and storage that was

(40:54):
not done ten years ago. Right, it was a high
risk market. But this is growing worldwide. You know, I
would hold up myself phone route and tell you this
is where the world's going in terms of mobile phones.
If we try to go back to the phone that
was connected to the wall, because that's what the President
wanted to do, almost would be up in arms.

Speaker 7 (41:10):
Right.

Speaker 10 (41:11):
That's the transition that's happening right now in energy, And
the question is do we want to be the world
leaders in this or do we want to go back
to trying to get things done in a way that
and often Ryan, I heard you talk about in the
Data Center show a while back. You know, it takes
seven to ten years to build things like a natural
gas plant or a nuclear plant. The demand we have

(41:32):
is growing super fast. The cheapest fastest way to do
it as renewables, and we can bring all of those
electrons to the grid regardless, So let us compete and
we'll win. But they're putting handcuffs on us. You know.
This BLM cancelation is a good example, right, They're They're
looking at a project that has really taken it probably

(41:52):
hundreds of millions of dollars an investment, ready to go,
and they're cutting it off for purely political reasons. And that,
unfortunately is going to cost the electricity payers in that
region significantly because that new power isn't going to come
online and there's nothing to replace it in the near term.

Speaker 3 (42:08):
Yeah, so can you talk a little bit about that
the handcuffs. So, I think that is the best pushback
to Trump where he says, hey, you know.

Speaker 4 (42:15):
No subsidies. Everybody should have to compete.

Speaker 3 (42:18):
But taking a project that had hundreds of millions of
dollars in an investment and approvals, or taking these two
hundred and thirty three contracts that were doled out and
just canceling them doesn't that That doesn't sound like a
level playing field to me. But what else, what else
in a regulatory framework is happening that is making it

(42:40):
not just that you're on a level playing field, but
it's that it's actively handicapping you against the fossil fuel industry.

Speaker 10 (42:47):
It's that uncertainty, right, And when we think about the
way you invest in anything, whether it be renewable energy
or a new technology or building real estate. Right, the
less uncertainty, the more capital will flow to that market.
They've entered uncertainty around the tax credits, around how you're
going to look at something called FIAC, which is like
where you're getting it's a very in the weez thing
and the policy, but it's you know, whether or not

(43:09):
we can get any any part of a system from China.

Speaker 7 (43:12):
Right.

Speaker 10 (43:13):
You know, American manufacturings ramped up significantly, but still within
the supply chain, there's still bits that come from from China.
So how do we address that? And if you're going
to put that handicap on us, let's also put it
in the fossil fool industry. Good luck building a natural
gas plant today that no bit of that natural gas
plant comes from from China.

Speaker 4 (43:30):
Right.

Speaker 10 (43:31):
Those are the type of handicaps that they're trying to implement.
And the sector of energy knows what he's doing, right.
He is an extremist who's come in to try to
handicap this industry and he's doing everything he can to do.

Speaker 8 (43:41):
So one thing I have heard often from people in
the solar industry, and I'm curious if you can elaborate
on this. A bit is that the technology is what
advancements in the technology would surprise most people if they
realize kind of the potential and like it's actually I say,
this is somebody on the right who likes the idea

(44:02):
of your solar because it gets you off the grid, right,
like you can if you have your own solar capability.
Is there's just you know, there's something independent about that,
if you're able to run your home onn solar or
something like that. But one of the things that I
hear a lot is this is like leaps and bounds.
Like when we're looking into the immediate future of solar,
it's really really promising in ways that maybe people don't recognize.

Speaker 9 (44:25):
Could you tell us a little bit about whether that's true.

Speaker 10 (44:29):
Yeah, So first, and the technology piece, and I want
to get to the political piece of a second, because you
raise a really interesting point. So the technology piece leaps
and bounds forward. We are, for instance, we built solar
in Alaska right recently. If you had asked me when
we started this company ten years ago, if that was possible,
no way, right. But now, for instance, the panels cannot
just take the sun from the top, but they take
it as reflected from the bottom, really driving up efficiency.

(44:53):
Energy storage has come such a long way, and it's
being implemented across the grid, and we will be a
key piece of stabilizing the grid. You know, just in
the last few years that technology is accelerated to a
point that it's being you know, there's almost a lack
of batteries right now that so many people need it
to help stabilize the grid. But back to the political
piece for a second. This should not be a Republican

(45:14):
and democratic issue. You know, I think one of the
things that is lost in the big beautiful bill debate.
This summer twenty two House Republicans signed a letter saying,
don't touch the tax credits. We need them. If this
was a standalone energy bill, that would not have passed.

Speaker 7 (45:28):
Right.

Speaker 10 (45:29):
The genius of the administration, I'll give them credit for this,
was flooding the zone with salt right, the state taxes, medicaid,
putting these folks in an uncomfortable position to decide how
they're going to vote. We have to continue to build
a port on both sides, obviously in the Republican side
more right now, to continue to show that this technology

(45:50):
has proven. Texas is the fastest growing solar state in
the nation. Why is it the vastest growing solar state
in the nation two years ago?

Speaker 4 (45:59):
Pope?

Speaker 10 (46:00):
What was a death because the grid was unstable?

Speaker 7 (46:02):
Right?

Speaker 10 (46:03):
Recently the head of the national group that manages the
grid's reliability said it's because of solar and storage that
Texas's grid is back to being stable.

Speaker 4 (46:14):
Right.

Speaker 10 (46:15):
Those are the leaders that we should be listening to
in this debate, not some of the extremists that are
pushing sort of anti renewable policies instead of all the
above policies and pragmatic energy policies that will move us forward.

Speaker 3 (46:27):
And so the bottom line seems to be that if
you want to build nuclear or natural gas turbines, natural gas,
you're looking at seven seven years.

Speaker 4 (46:35):
Nuclear you would be extremely lucky.

Speaker 3 (46:37):
But given our track record to get something online within
seven years, so let's even say it's that. Whereas when
in solar we're talking what how long to get from
like starting to get it.

Speaker 10 (46:50):
Up, Yeah, eighteen months to two years. I mean it's
for you. For distributed solar, big utility projects like the
one that got canceled, sometimes could take four plus depending
on transmission. But it's much quicker, and it's really a
local game at that point on how to get it
interconnected and where you know. The transition that's happening to
the grid is we're going from these massive centralized systems

(47:13):
that provided power and it was distributed across the country
to a much more distributed type of production, so we
can move quicker, get those things plugged in closer to
the end use of the power.

Speaker 13 (47:25):
Right.

Speaker 10 (47:25):
That transition has been underway for about fifteen or twenty years. Unfortunately,
these guys are slowing that transition by trying to go
back to that centralized system which has proven unstable. Right,
we want stability. We need to move from again. We're
moving to this right from the telecon age of Mabel, right,
and we have to continue that transition because the rest

(47:46):
of the world is and if we don't, we're going to.

Speaker 4 (47:48):
Be left beyond and so correct me if I'm wrong.
The way that.

Speaker 3 (47:53):
Get you end up getting your electric bill is a
product of supply and demand, where the utility gauges what
the supply is that they have now and what they
forecast will be the supply in the future, against the
demand that they have now and the demand that they
expect in the future, and then they go to their
regulators and they say, here's what we need to charge

(48:15):
to make this work. So the supply, the only way
to bring new supply on with any quickness seems to
be to rely on these clean energy technologies because they
can move faster. On the demand side, we seem to
be building data centers everywhere all the time, and so
the demand is going through the roof. So it and

(48:38):
then tell me about the because you mentioned the tax credits.
My understanding was that the in the IRA tax credits
went something like twenty thirty years because these, as you mentioned,
these projects take so long to get on and if
you're going to make a multi billion dollar investment, this
is something you care about for decades or maybe fifteen

(48:59):
twenty years. Whereas the one big beautiful bill cut those
credits and they cut off at what twenty thirty or
something like that. So, yeah, it's not exactly how that
actually end. Yeah, So, first of all, a utility question,
your right is to supply and demand issue, and right
now demand is far our stripping supply. That's why utilities

(49:21):
are having to ask for rate heights. You mentioned in
a previous episode.

Speaker 10 (49:24):
The data centers are driving that, and we need every
type of supply we can to counteract that. If we
wait seven years for a natural gas plant, everyone's going
to be paid. Electricity bills are a top political issue today.
You're seeing it in New Jersey the governor's race. It's
going to be there. It is going to be the
egg prices of the midterms. Right, and the Trump administration
knows that. That's why they're out blaming us when that's

(49:45):
not the reality. But going back to your previous question
on the tax credits, this is one of the things
I was very active on Capitol Hill this spring because
there's a lack of understanding of finance in the policy
making realm in Washington.

Speaker 7 (49:58):
Right.

Speaker 10 (49:58):
The tax credits are something that are you know, so
as we build a project today, we can go to
a tax payer and they can get a credit to
invest that money into this type of project. They can
also do it for low income housing and other things.

Speaker 7 (50:13):
Right.

Speaker 10 (50:13):
This is a tool that's been used for decades to
incentivize certain type of growth.

Speaker 7 (50:18):
Right.

Speaker 10 (50:19):
What happens is, though when we're building projects, when we're
looking out to you know, it takes us two years
to get something built. But we're financing it today, right,
so we are looking at it when those tax when's
that tax credit cliff comes, because it highly affects the
type of capital we're putting into a project. The reality is,

(50:39):
the reason those tax credits are put in is because
it helps keep the price of electrons lower on the backside.
So it's like, how much does it cost to build
equals how much you're paying for the power? Right, we're
now raising the price to build. It's going to raise
the price for people are going to pay for electricity.
The efficiency our market is getting those is helping to
negate some that which is exciting. But the reality is

(51:03):
still an issue for projects really twenty six and beyond,
and we are trying to figure out today what does
that look like and how are we going to sort
of build in finance? And the reality is where we're
going to build in finance because we are. The question
is where is it going to work?

Speaker 3 (51:19):
Well?

Speaker 4 (51:19):
John Powers, great last name by.

Speaker 9 (51:22):
The way of nominal determentive.

Speaker 4 (51:25):
Queen Capital, thanks for walking us through this. Really appreciate it.

Speaker 10 (51:30):
Yeah, thank you guys for having me. I appreciate it.

Speaker 4 (51:34):
Well.

Speaker 8 (51:35):
As I mentioned earlier in the show, Ryan rambled in
here off his bike this morning and said he apparently
knows the future president of Ireland, and rather than just
treat him as a crazy individual.

Speaker 9 (51:47):
I think we're going to indulge him. He has a claim.

Speaker 3 (51:50):
Once in a while, you got to just indulge those
claims because they might be true. Katherine Connolly is running
for president of Ireland. The polls have her enormous lea
ahead and the election is on Friday. She is expected
to be the next president of Ireland. When I was
in Dublin over the summer, I met up with Abu

(52:10):
Baker Abed my old not my old, my colleague at
drop site. He was reported for us from Gaza. He's
now in Ireland.

Speaker 4 (52:19):
He's very young and young young guy.

Speaker 3 (52:21):
And we teamed up with the Ditch and Paully Doyle
and did an event with the woman who had just
launched her presidential campaign at the time, Catherine Connolly, and
it was held in the basement of this pub and
it was a really riveting conversation and to see her

(52:43):
in conversation with Aba Bacher was quite interesting. You can
see the entire link to the entire thing done in
the show notes. We'll play you know, about fifteen minutes
of it after this, But after that she had a
series of kind of controversies in in the presidential race,
where for instance, she said she was asked to condemned

(53:05):
Hamas and she said, look, Hamas is part of the.

Speaker 4 (53:07):
Fabric of Palestinian society.

Speaker 3 (53:09):
Who are we, as people who want our own liberation,
our own anti colonial struggle, to tell other people how
to run their liberation struggle. And you know, Irish elites,
we're pretty like agast at that comment. Irish voters were like, yeah,
that tracks. And so she's on track to be the

(53:29):
next president of Ireland. So let's roll a little bit
of this this clip. And so this this starts with
Kathain Connolly getting asked by Pouli Doyle why there's this
gap between what the Irish kind of public wants its
government to do when it comes to relations with Israel

(53:50):
and Palestine and what the Irish government actually does.

Speaker 8 (53:53):
So you guys are in the basement of a pub
of the summer. So this would have been in July
or August.

Speaker 3 (53:58):
Yeah, yes, And as you can see, and there she
starts off by joking about how insanely hot it was.
It was like over one hundred degrees. The room was
you know, it's absolutely packed standing room only, and they
don't have air conditioning over in Dublin, so you can
see we are all sweating bullets in there. But it
was it was very much worth it, and it was

(54:20):
cool there. We have a ton of job site and
breaking points viewers and readers in Dublin, which is also
kind of cool to see.

Speaker 4 (54:29):
So this is this is for y'all.

Speaker 15 (54:30):
This is the first time I've been in sauna, in
the sauna with all my clothes, a communal sauna.

Speaker 7 (54:44):
I don't mean to be flippant.

Speaker 15 (54:48):
I don't know where to go with this, really, because
it's so overwhelming to listen to yourself here. I don't
know what words to follow. I don't know how we've
come to the stage where we're hearing that description and
try to explain it. Something has gone horribly wrong with humanity,
with the narrative, and you're asking me directly about the government.

(55:08):
I actually think the government believe their own rhetoric to
a certain extent. I think the government believe they're rhetoric
to a certain extent. I think they actually believe they're
doing something and they're the best boys in the class
or the best girls in the class. And they've told
us that repeatedly for fear we didn't understand it the
first time.

Speaker 10 (55:28):
And so.

Speaker 15 (55:32):
We've reduced the world to them and us. We're really
back to that them and us. We're back to you're
with us or again us. And it's frightening actually to
watch it on a daily basis. And if we look
at Palestine, well before the sixth of October and in
twenty twenty three, as it's been set out, slaughter was

(55:57):
going on one way or another. When when Hamas went
over the border, we had to continuously every time we
spoke condemned that, like the refrain and the rose rare.
We had to say absolutely and give that refrain to
legitimize what we were going to say. Some people were

(56:17):
more courageous than I and said they wouldn't condemn it.
I actually had no difficulty condemning it, because I was
horrified at the violence, as I am with all violence. However,
as we all know here, history did not begin on
that day. But we were never allowed to give a
context that was not permitted in the doll without over

(56:39):
and over condemning the attack and of course, context is
very important, and so we're not allowed to do that,
and we've struggled to do that. And I want to
thank you because you have no idea the importance of
your of your protest and all the protests that have
taken place over at the country. It's really really important.

(57:01):
You mightn't think it, but it is having an influence
on politicians. However, I don't know how long we can
keep on with a genocide going on in front of
our eyes. The word ironic is not the right word.
But just last week we had a minute silence first
rebinition rightly, so we met no connection with the ongoing

(57:21):
genocide in Palestine. And so there's a disconnect all of
the time. And you asked me, how do we move
from the government's rhetoric. There's a complete disconnect on so
many levels, so many levels between the government who think
they're doing fantastic and the actual feeling on the ground. So,

(57:42):
in my time in the doll Amnesty published their report
and they said there was an apartheid regime in being
operated by Israel, and our government told us they were
uncomfortable with the word apartheid. They actually said, we don't
really want to talk about that. Uncomfortable with that word,
so we let that go. And then six human rights

(58:03):
organizations were described and designated as terrorist organizations. We let
that go. We waited for the evidence. The government said
there's no evidence ever produced. And then we watched the
slaughter of men, women and children of journalists. And I
don't need to say all of this, but you know
it's important to say it because we're actually watching the slaughter.

(58:25):
We're watching the un being dismantled, We're watching language becoming meaningless.
I never understood kafka when I was doing German. I
wasn't able to I fully understand kafka. Now I can
tell you, after my years and the dolls in Is
twenty sixteen, things just happen. Things just happen. You know,

(58:46):
things are just happening in Palestine. Has nothing to do
with Israel, really, and that so I struggle. I struggle.
I've read everything I possibly can. I came from a
back round of leon URIs Exodus me eighteen. I think
I wanted to go to the Kibbutz. Let me say,
there isn't a n Anti Semitic bone in my body.

(59:07):
I wouldn't tolerate it. But that's the background I came from,
and I've met a journey in trying to understand Palestine
and read everything I can.

Speaker 7 (59:15):
The latest.

Speaker 15 (59:16):
I had the privilege of launching a book in Galway
by Finton Drury and I recommend it. So where am
I going with this? We have no choice but to
speak out. We're at a point in history where we
really have to use our voices to make language mean something,

(59:36):
to make our actions mean something, and when we try that,
we're demonized, we're isolated. All the tricks of the book
to do that with the help of media that's colluding.
So I thank you very much because it's not easy
to provide an alternative media, but it's essential because we're
not going to get it from the leadership in the
doll and we're not going to get it. And I'll

(59:58):
finish just maybe, you know, misinformation and disinformation, And I
tend to laugh nearly hysterically when I hear that about
the government bringing in legislation or something to counter disinformation.
In my experience, most disinformation comes from government, from institutions,
from institutions who protect themselves in a self serving manner

(01:00:22):
and a narrative all the time and that consensus mentality,
to me is the greatest threat to democracy. And so
if we go back and I'll finish on this the
banking inquiry, Nyberg did his banking inquiry and published his report,
and what jumped off the page was the consensus mentality
that allowed the banking crisis. And fast forward to the

(01:00:44):
twenty twenty five and the same mentality is evident in
relation to the children's hospital, the various debacles in Dublin,
and I sit on the Public Account's Committee. I've read
all the reports and the biggest thing was the absence
of questioning what led to all of these very very
serious issues, neglect of children, the absence of questioning and

(01:01:08):
the consensus mentality. So on one level, I don't wish
to add to your despair in the sauna in here
we've learned nothing. On the other hand, I learn all
the time because it's the only thing we have left
is to keep learning, keep acting and using our voice,
because we have to give hope. We have to stand
with the people of Palestine, because if we let it happen,

(01:01:30):
there's serious consequences for us as a nation, and as
for humanity, where are we going if we let this
happen remark.

Speaker 16 (01:01:42):
I think in my opinion that like I said, I've
arrived here, and just to let people know that the
most well known European country or risin country the gosens
now is Ireland. By the way, there is so much
love to you, so much really hoping you Gazans, and
they're always talking about you. And this hasn't started since

(01:02:05):
this journal sign started in October, but it's always been
durable for many, many many years, and we're very well
aware of that. But I think arrived here. One thing
the Irish government is quite worried about is that it
is very pressured by you by the protest but always

(01:02:26):
seen every single day from protests, calls to the Apartheids
regime to pass occupied to ret his bill and to
cut this really bonds and everything. I am aware of that.
But I think, in my opinion in the only obstacle
that the government has is America, because it doesn't want
to It doesn't want to make America angry with it,

(01:02:49):
and America it is really controls America, not the other
way around. So the Irish government is because there are
a lot of investments here from Americans in the sky
country and we're all aware of that and of seeing that,
and I've read about it. But also this government doesn't
like it. What it's all doing is just blazing the

(01:03:10):
United States and the US administration, and that if we
make the US angry, we can't attack Israel or we
can't do whatever we want. So but we have to
be really aware of what it means. I don't think
any view is happy that your aerospace is allowed to
be used to transport fright digits from America to Australia

(01:03:34):
to kill bomb children. I do think other view is
happy with that. I don't think that those politicians were
still voting for a general side oft for israelly bones,
or are saying mere platitudes and the particularly the Irish
newspapers here that particularly the Irish Times and the RT,

(01:03:55):
we're still producing stories just to find the ongoing slaughtered
or we're seeing every single day. No one should be
allowed to accept this. So what Palestinians need from the
government because in the end, there is hope and people
who are still still cared, There is hoping, people who
are still you know, still have a heart to have
pure heart about the plight of an entire population and

(01:04:19):
think about it, which which part of this world is
being bombed, Which part of this world is suffering, Which
part of this world is being starved, Which which part
of this world is being exterminated every single day. It's
all the gaza. So why are we not having just
at the mere rights of any human beings around the world.

(01:04:39):
Why this Irish government, which knows the meaning of colonization,
which knows the meaning of starvation, which knows the meaning
of imperialism, it knows everything about us because it has
been colonized by British, by Britain, so it knows everything.
So why this government is still not acting because in
the end causos the prologue and then everything will happen.

(01:05:03):
And you know that Britain is funding there's a Britain
is the most complicit probably country in this general side,
after the US administration or after the United States. So
what Palestinians needed from the government, from this government is
just to listen to its people, as they told you,
like past occupatorate is but oh cut tho's really want.
It's not important, It's not going to be the end

(01:05:24):
of the world, and just listen to your people. It's enough.
It's enough slaughter. So this complicity just to allow in
the Shinegan Airport, to allow partages without even interrogating them,
without even stopping them, without even asking them anything, but
rather you will see people saluting them here they're in

(01:05:44):
the airport, and this is just absolutely not something that
you really want. So what we all want from this
government is just to listen to its people like do
not like if you don't want to help, the least
you can do, don't contribute to killing us. That's all
we want as Palestinians.

Speaker 3 (01:06:03):
Then maybe, uh maybe, maybe, maybe Catherine, you can speak
to that question about the role of the US and
then if you did become president my understanding, it's a
pretty ceremonial position, but in that in that ceremony there
could be interactions with Vice President of the United States,

(01:06:25):
the President of the United States, if there are meetings,
would would you take meetings like that or or how
would you use the office to try to get the
yoke of of the US off of Irish government so
that it could have a more democratic connection to its public.

Speaker 15 (01:06:45):
Hello, am I speaking from the diaphragm. Yeah, it's quite
a complex question. Yeah, I'll do my best. Where do
I go with this ion. I am who I am.
I can't pretend My only strength is my honesty and

(01:07:11):
what I feel, and I do my best to educate
myself and speak, reflect and speak. So it seems to
me I have no choice but to use my voice
to speak out. I can't be presumptuous enough to jump
ahead being president. I'm not trying to avoid your question.
It certainly let me take it before then. I think,

(01:07:33):
as you've said, we're absolutely intricately bunked up with America.
They determine our policy. We're allowing the bullies to determine
our policy. So we have a bully in America who
changes his mind. But the problem didn't start with the
bully in America who changes his mind every five minutes

(01:07:55):
every day. It started before that, when the Democrats failed
to see what was happening, and when they fail to
see people turning away from the Democrats, and fully they
fail to analyze it. If we come back here, the
government is out of touch. They simply don't realize the
strength of outrage on the ground, not just in relation

(01:08:16):
to the genocide in Palestine, but in relation to war,
the normalization of war, the normalization of genocide, the normalization
of homelessness, of a housing crisis, all of which shouldn't
be normal. And people are outraged on the ground and
are crying out for solutions. And we have the solutions,

(01:08:38):
but the narrative from the advisors and from the neoliberal
ideology is very, very strong, with the help of the press.
So if we go back to Ireland, Ireland has done
very well by its government in terms of the recognition
of Palestine. However, I'm on record for saying they're recognizing

(01:08:59):
Palestine when it's on must descride. So while they're clapping
themselves on the back, in one sense, it's easy to
understand them because they are top of the class. Compared
with other countries, including Arab countries. They are at top
of the class. So they see themselves as doing very well.
What we see. What we see is democracy in peril

(01:09:27):
because we either agree with the narrative that we need
to be very careful with American and we heard the ambassador,
I think the American ambassador to Israel telling us we
were intoxicated on our own narrative, but we need to
stand up because we have everything to lose if we don't.
Whether I do that now as a candidate for the

(01:09:48):
presidency and in the best way I can if I
was president. Certainly, and under the Constitution, the role of
the President is set out and it's narrow enough. The
symbolism of is very important, as we know in this
country from Northern Ireland as well. Symbols are powerful and
they can be used. So the symbolic role can be used,

(01:10:08):
and I must comply with my duties if I was
there under the Constitution and by law. However, one of
the articles gives the president specific role in relation to
the welfare of the people of Ireland, and that's quite
a broad a broad part. In the Constitution. The person
becoming president takes a public vow, absolutely a solemn promise

(01:10:31):
to serve the people of Ireland and the welfare of Ireland.
And so I don't think the welfare of Ireland is
served by us joining warmongers by adding to the military
industrial complex. I think we have everything to lose and
nothing to gain by increasing. Of course, we need to
look after our defense forces, so let me get that

(01:10:51):
on the record. But joining in the boys club to
back up the profit driven arms industry, it's not in
our interest and everything to lose by doing that. We
have to use our voice for peace.

Speaker 10 (01:11:04):
Will I do that?

Speaker 15 (01:11:04):
If I was elected and had the privilege of being president,
you couldn't stop me. You couldn't stop me using my
voice for peace. You couldn't stop me. As a mother
of two children who were grown up and are two

(01:11:26):
men now, so they're not around and they're not embarrassed
by that. But once a mother, all was a mother,
I'm horrified that we would be using war as a
way to achieve peace. It's back to front, so we
should were we should be working, and that's what I
would do as a president, working to make the Republic
mean something, working towards the United Ireland with consent and

(01:11:50):
recognize and diversity and using my voice, but more importantly
acting as a role model. That's a bit pretentious, but
enabling and empowering people on the ground to use their voices,
whether that's for peace or to do what they want
to do. It is vital. And as I said earlier on,

(01:12:10):
we're at a turning point, so we need people to
take courage in their hands and use their voices. Consensus
is not healthy, Dissent is very good, and diversity and
the cherishing of diversity. It's absolutely vital for a functioning,
healthy democracy.

Speaker 4 (01:12:32):
Okay, that's it for us, and we'll see you on Friday.

Speaker 9 (01:12:36):
Right, we'll see you on Friday.

Speaker 8 (01:12:37):
I did want to mention I was referencing a report
that was done by a conservative group on connections between
like Open Society tides funding that sort of stuff going
into groups that potentially are knowingly funding literal Ruckus in
this case is so I've was trying to remember whose
study it was, as Capital Research Group, Cappal Research Center,

(01:13:01):
which is a conservative group, and they have a report
that's it's pretty interesting, Ryan, I was talking just a
little bit about it while we were between segments that
they show Open Society has sent money into a group
called the Ruckus Society, also something called the Center for
Third World Organizing. You can check that out on your own,
make your own decisions.

Speaker 3 (01:13:19):
To direct action they do. Yeah, I wouldn't call it
violent at all, but they do direct action.

Speaker 8 (01:13:24):
So again, yeah, to just reiterate what we said in
that segment, I'm not trying to make the case that
there's a vast right wing there's a vast left wing conspiracy.
I should say it's a sense soors money to like
literal black back violence taking over America cities. But you
go ahead and check out that that study.

Speaker 9 (01:13:41):
We'll link it.

Speaker 3 (01:13:42):
We are not funded by liberal philanthropy, So go to
breakingpoints dot com upgrade you're to a premium description and
make sure that we don't have to go with our
tin cup to Soros and the Tides Foundation.

Speaker 8 (01:13:52):
That's right, Yeah, we are only ninety percent funded by
Soros percent.

Speaker 9 (01:13:56):
We're funded BYuT you. We're funded by you. We're so
grateful for that.

Speaker 8 (01:13:59):
So breakingpoints dot com you can get a premium subscription
which gets you access to the second half of the
Friday Show where we really have all the fun and
do amas and maybe Lyle will show up again sometimes
we can hope.

Speaker 4 (01:14:11):
All right, we'll see you there.