10/6/25: Trump Tells Bibi Stop Bombing, Greta Tortured By Israel, Trump Portland Invasion Blocked, Dire Warning On Revenge Loop

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 4 (00:33):
Good morning, everybody, Happy Monday.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Have an amazing show for everybody today. What do we have, Crystal,
indeed we do.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
We're going to have Jeremy Scahill joining us to break
down where we are with those Gaza peace talks. A
lot of developments over the weekend, so he will certainly
bring us the latest. He's also going to update us
on the treatment of those seized flotilla participants, including one
Drop site journalist, so we'll get the latest from him
on that. Also, we've got updates overnight as a Trump

(00:58):
judge smacks down Trump's attempt to send California National Guard
to Portland, Oregon. A lot of moving parts there and
a lot going on Chicago Portland in particular, will break
that down for you as well.

Speaker 4 (01:10):
We're taking a look at the economy.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
Soybean farmers very upset over the tariffs, over China not
buying any soybeans anymore, over the bailout of Argentina. One
to speaking out in particular, we wanted to make sure
to bring you that. We're going to update you on
the ongoing government shutdown in particular.

Speaker 4 (01:25):
We've got some polls about how.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
Americans are processing what's going on, how they feel about
the positions of the two parties and of the president.
And we've got Van Jones having to apologize after a
discussing quote unquote joke he made about dead Gaza babies
to Bill Maher. So we will show you that and
the fallout thereof.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yes, that's right.

Speaker 3 (01:45):
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episode to a friend or rate us five stars. It
really helps other people find the show. But as chrysl said,

(02:07):
let's go ahead and start with the consequential news here
of this Gaza potential cease fire deal which may or
may not be coming together. Let's go and put this
up here on the screen, so over the weekend, breaking
news here. Quote based on the statement just issued by Hamas.
This is from Donald Trump. I believe they are ready
for a lasting piece. Israel must immediately stop the bombing

(02:28):
of Gaza so that we can get the hostages out
safely and quickly. Right now, it is far too dangerous
to do that. We are already in discussions on details
to be worked out. This is not about Gaza alone.
This is about a long sought piece in the Middle East.
And all of this is amid some serious fights between
Trump and BB behind the scenes. Not exactly sure what happened,

(02:50):
but Trump seems to have had it at least for
now with BB. All that could change, and this could
all be a ruse, But let's go ahead and put
this up.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
Here on the screen.

Speaker 3 (02:57):
We are now back to Barak Reved headlines about how
the president is fed up with Bbe. This time though
it's Trump and he says, quote exclusive Trump on the
Gaza peace deal. I said, BIB, this is your chancefer victory.
And in it he said, quote BB, this is your
chansfer victory.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
He was fine with it.

Speaker 3 (03:13):
Trump told me he's got to be fine with it.
He has no choice with me. You've got to be fine.
And apparently also made some comment about how why are
you so negative all the time? To beb Why negative
all the time? That's what he said there to BB.
I mean part of the context there, however, is that

(03:35):
despite Trump's protestations, they are continuing to bomb Gaza. We
have some video of that we can put here on
the screen. Keep in mind, all of this is after
what happened the Trump quote unquote ultimatum or whatever you
want to call it, where he said that the Israel
must immediately stop bombing Gaza. But you can see that
this is going to be very difficult to finesse. There's

(03:56):
already been some movement behind the scenes where I believe
bb deleted a tweet where he had seemingly agreed or
affirmed the peace deal. There's movement inside of the coalition. Remember,
I mean these really cabinet explicitly does not want this.
They're parts of the Israeli far right coalition backing up
BB netsa Yahu Bezel. Smotrich is already quadronic quote red

(04:19):
line in the sand where he said, I will agree
to know israelly withdrawal from Gaza. They may be able
to get around it because there's some alleged buffer zone here.
Even people saying that Hamas agreed to the deal is
not exactly correct because they did not agree to the
entire deal in principle.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
They said, we agree to parts of this deal.

Speaker 3 (04:37):
However, we're going to have to negotiate some finer points,
of which there will be talks in Cairo starting today
with some representatives of the United States of Hamas, by
the way, including one of the people Israel tried to
blow up.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
In Doha guitar.

Speaker 4 (04:50):
So it's injured, Yeah, who was.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
Injured in the bombing?

Speaker 3 (04:53):
Pretty insane if you think about it, And so yeah,
I mean, I don't know, I think it could go
in any different direct This seems to be the closest
we've gotten in a long time. That said, Israel tries
to blow up the deal every single time. They have
no incentive in their cabinet or their government.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
I'm pretty sure the people want this.

Speaker 3 (05:10):
Deal, especially to free the hostage, because that's what part
of it is. Hamas, I mean, they've been, at least
in the last few peace deals, have agreed in principle
to a lot of the US negotiat But you can
never count out the fact that this could all just
be a ruse. Last time there was a ceasefire talk,
they blew them up in Doha.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Before that, I mean, they blew them up. And remember
they blew them.

Speaker 3 (05:29):
Up in Iran. They've murdered half of the negotiators. And
there's a big question too as to whether these Hamas
negotiators have any credibility with the battlefield commanders who are
left inside of Gaza, because all of the top echelon
have all been killed consistently.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
So there's still so many things that could fall apart in.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
This deal, and it really does just all come down
to Trump, right Hamas craft. And we'll get more from
Jeremy on this Hamas crafted their response to make it
to lead with the yes right and basically agree to
things that they've agreed to effectively since post October seventh. Yes,
we'll give you back the hostages. Recall on the table
from the beginning has been an all for all deal.

(06:09):
We'll give you back your hostages, you give us back
our hostages. So they have long agreed to that. Of
course they accept the AID provisions. They do not want
to be Hamas does not want to be part of governance.
That's easy for them to say yes to all of
this wild like Tony Blair is going to run the
Gaza strip and you know, effectively you're never going to
have any ability to effectuate your Palestinian Palestinian liberation goals.

(06:34):
All of that part. They're like, we'll talk about that part.
They did not agree to that, but they intentionally crafted
their response to lead with the pieces they could say
yes to, in hopes that Trump would look at that
and say, look, they said, yes, we're getting peace, let's
move forward, a sort of play to his ego. Now,
that is what he has said publicly. He said, look,
Hamas appears like they really want peace. Israel must stop

(06:57):
bombing but on the other hand, Israel has no stop bombing.
Some seventy at least Palestinians have been killed since Trump
said you must stop bombing, and there has been no
insistence from Trump that Israel actually respect his wishes and
the terms of this nascent peace deal in these negotiations
as they move forward. On the Israeli side, yeah, net

(07:19):
Nyahu has gone out of his way to poison every
negotiation we've seen so far, and what he's broadcasting to
the Israeli domestic audience is basically like, don't worry, we're
never going to have to withdraw from the Gaza strip.
We're going to keep it under control. We're going to
get everything that we've ever wanted here. So as everybody
heads to Cairo and these negotiating teams come together to

(07:42):
see if there's something they can do here, there are
a million questions to be answered about whether this is
actually going to be able to achieve even a brief ceasefire.
So that's where things stand. And the reason I say
it really comes down to Trump is because he's the
one ultimately who has to pull the pin on Israel
saying no, we're done, We're not supplying we're not helping you.
You actually have to abide by these terms. He's the

(08:04):
one also who has to ignore the voices in his
own coalition, like Lindsey Graham, who's out there saying, oh, look,
Hama said no to this deal. You know you can't
work with them. We've got to go immediately back to
the genocide. So a lot of a lot of big
questions this morning about how this is all going to
or if it's all going to come together.

Speaker 4 (08:21):
It's very odd.

Speaker 3 (08:22):
I mean, front page of Haretz right now is quote
Trump shifts into high gears, end war, Netta Yah, who
knows he can't stop him.

Speaker 1 (08:30):
I don't really know what that means.

Speaker 3 (08:31):
I mean, really, what a lot of it is the
nets on Yah who playbook is just to basically drag
things out as long as possible. As you mentioned, we
are meeting apparently in Cairo. Let's go and put that
up there on the screen, please. From the Wall Street Journal,
the ceasefire talks are set to start today in Egypt,
and so delegations from the United States, from Israel, Hamas,
and several other Middle Eastern countries are set to meet

(08:53):
from Monday for the anticipated talks, but quote, ending the
nearly two year old war remains a distant goal. The
parties are going to try to come to an agreement
over crucial points, including Israelly military withdrawal lines in Gaza,
the names of the high profile palest Indian prisoners to
be released in exchange for the remaining four D eight hostages,
including as many as twenty that Israel believes to be alive.

(09:14):
Even if those talks succeed, they would not immediately end
the two year old conflict. Trump said ahead of Monday
that the first phase could quote be completed this week.
I am asking everyone to move fast. However, the Secretary
of State, whenever he was asked about this, said, quote, well,
not yet. There's some work that remains to be done.
And in fact, even the hostage part of the deal

(09:37):
seems to be one of the easier parts in some ways,
because what they said is that the plan and the
sticking points, which, to be fair, has got to be
the biggest sticking point is who gets to govern Gaza
after all of this, the Coalitional Provisional Authority of Gaza
under the auspices of Donald J. Trump and Tony Blair.

(09:58):
I mean that is I mean it's it's crazy. It's
literally like a callback to the days of the viceroy
and the British Empire in the region, or the United
States quasi colonial project of two thousand and three in Iraq,
which obviously was a massive disaster.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
That is not something that people are all going to forget.
In the Middle East.

Speaker 3 (10:17):
Many the Middle Eastern negotiators at the table probably had
to deal at some point with the Bush administration, with
the you know, invasion of Iraq, the fallout, the terrorism
and all of that. So in a lot of ways,
you know it, the ceasefire and the hostage deal itself
seemed to be one of the easier parts of this,
and it's potential if you're Hamas, you're in such a
sticky situation, and same with the Israelis, where you know,

(10:40):
the moment that all those hostages are gone, you have
no leverage and so like that's the only thing that
the Israelis really care about in terms of their population.
That's you know, even forcing some sort of negotiation on this,
you because you have all this stuff on the horizon,
and if the hostages are gone. Considering the US and
Israeli track record of the last eight months, or so,

(11:01):
could you really fully trust the guarantee of the United
States government that the bombing would not, you know, resume.

Speaker 1 (11:07):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
That's part of where I just I keep looking at
this and I'm like, look, guys, they tried to kill you.
They've literally murdered ninety percent of your top negotiators. Every
cease fire has eventually resumed in conflict. To be clear,
I'm rooting for a ceasefire. I think that people of
Gaza need a break. And that's the only reason Hamas
even feels enough pressure is that per Ryan and Jeremy,
many of the people inside are like, I don't care

(11:29):
what it takes, hands up, just let me live. Who
can blame them? Anybody on Twitter, every being go oh
this is surrender. Fuck honestly, screw you, like you have
no business telling people who have been through two years
of bombing and all that how to conduct their affairs.
The question for the actual negotiators themselves is can you
take that guarantee. That's why I was so upset about

(11:52):
the Iran situation, because you could see how are our.

Speaker 1 (11:55):
Talks going right now with Russia? Anyone want to tell me?

Speaker 3 (11:58):
You know, they just bomb the shit out of Ukraine
because they don't trust US negotiators.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
Same here with Hamas.

Speaker 3 (12:03):
Part of the problem with that Ruse is that you
set the tone for all time in the future. You
cannot trust these people, and they have all taken it
at their word, all the serious all the serious adversaries.
India they didn't buckle. You have China, they haven't buckled
on trade.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
Russia. Same thing.

Speaker 3 (12:19):
If you're Hamask obviously in a ten times weaker population
or situation, but you're still you know, you have powerful
Middle Eastern people and also at your back. I don't know,
That's why it seems very difficult for me to see
this thing come to a close soon.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah, I think that that is probably correct, although I
mean you have to say, on the other side, what
other choice do they have? You know, you're always going
to be dealing with the US or untrustworthy Israel who
are obviously untrustworthy Ntnyahu who just wants to continue in
his coalition and would just want to continue the horror indefinitely.
So you know, these are the parties you have to
deal with. And one thing that Jeremy always talks about is,

(12:53):
you know they really feel like okay, it comes down
to Trump. We need to guarantee from Trump that he
is going to actually enforce the deal. There is zero
track record of that ultimately happening. But the fact that
he put himself as like chair of this coalitional, you know,
provisional government, was his attempt to be like, oh, I'm
going to be the one overseeing it. Don't worry, you

(13:13):
can trust me, and I'm going to see this thing through.
But the fact that you have Israel continuing to bomb
even after Trump told them not to, is one more
indication out of I don't know how many at this
point that you cannot rely on the US. And of
course we can all think back to the original ceasefire
that Trump negotiated, which was supposed to move forward. I mean,
this was a phased ceasefire agreement. Netyahu said from the

(13:36):
very beginning, now we're not going to move forward to
the other phases. We're just going to use this to
regroup and then we're going to go right back to
the genocide. And that's exactly what he did. And Trump
did not care about his own achievement in that ceasfire
deal to actually enforce it and require the Israelis to
abide by the terms of the deal. So you know,
if you're Commas, if you're the political leadership, certainly if
you're the battlefield commanders, and you know, there may be

(13:58):
I think there are very different views from those two
separate groups. And you're looking at this situation, Yeah, there's
no reason why you should expect that Israel is going
to be required to actually abide by the terms of
a deal that is also a terrible deal, Like it
is not a good deal for the Palestinians in any respect,
but it may also be the best that they can get.

(14:22):
And there is such horror and desperation that yes, of course,
people are just exhausted and like, please just make it stop.
Like my kids need to eat, I need to live.
I don't want to be displaced anymore. I want to
be able to live some sort of life. And if
this is the best we can get, we got to
do what we got to do.

Speaker 1 (14:38):
Yeah, I think absolutely right.

Speaker 3 (14:40):
I mean, one of the key things to Jeremy, who
is going to I think expound on, is the bitterness
for a lot of the people potentially on the ground,
because the deal does effectively say an end to all
armed resistance, and I mean, if you think about it,
how baked in that is to the identity and the
political conception of Palestinian not just statehood, but like conception

(15:04):
as a people. You know, that's going to be very,
very difficult to swallow. Now, It's potential that it may.
It may be the most popular thing right now for
a lot of people, just because the suffering that they had,
they've all had to endure. But who knows, you know,
a year, two years, three years effectively from now. So
I guess with all of that, we have Jeremy Scales
standing by, why don't we get to it joining us now.

(15:28):
Jeremy Scale's co founder of drop site News. Great friend
of the show. Good to see you, Jeremy, Thanks for
joining us, Thanks for having me back. So, Jeremy, there's
a lot of developments here. We talked last week about
the potential Gaza peace deal. Let's go ahead and put
your tweet up on the screen, which is the full
response from hamas leadership. Can you break some of this
response down? It was sold in the Western Prince as

(15:50):
a total agreement. That's not exactly the case, although it
is very conciliatory. What are your thoughts here on the
statement and what it means for the potential of a ceasefire.

Speaker 5 (15:59):
You know, I spent much of the last week talking
to sources within the Hamas leadership and representatives of Palestinian
Islamic Jihad and others who were involved with deliberating exactly
how to respond to Donald Trump. And the initial response
from Palestinians in all of these factions was that Trump's

(16:19):
Gaza plan would be a catastrophic deal for the Palestinians
on both the short term level and a long term level.
On the short term level, while it did provide for
the release of a large number of Palestinian captives in
exchange for releasing all of the Israeli captives within a
seventy two hour period, it did not have robust guarantees

(16:40):
that the war was actually going to end. Yes, Donald
Trump said that within seventy two hours, if they're released,
there will be an immediate ceasefire. But it didn't have
any details that previous agreements had. So the Palestinians looked
at that, and then they looked at these sweeping other
things about a foreign force being deployed. Donald Trump and
Tony Blair essentially dictating the affairs of Gaza major questions

(17:01):
that cut to the heart of Palestinian self determination or
Palestinian statehood. And so these Palestinian negotiators had to figure
out how to thread a needle. And they know that
Donald Trump is campaigning for the Nobel Peace Prize. They
know that Donald Trump responds well to people saying positive
things about him, and so what they tried to do
was to give the impression that they were embracing Trump's

(17:23):
vision for an end to the war and to affirm
that they want to go into an agreement to release
all Israeli captives in the context of achieving a ceasefire
and the withdrawal of Israeli forces and AID coming back in.
But they disagreed with large portions of Trump's plan. So
what they ended up on is a document that actually,

(17:44):
just on an independent strategic level, is quite brilliant because
what they do is they center what they know Trump
most wanted was to hear Hamas saying two things, we
will release all of the Israeli captives and we will
relinquish power in Gaza. Now, we've talked on this show
repeatedly about the fact that those are not new positions
on the part of Hamas, they've tried to make an
all for all deal. They've said that they would step down,

(18:07):
but they really they led with that, and they thanked
Trump for his efforts along with Arab and Muslim nations,
and they said that they're ready to make a deal.
But the second part of what they did, and this
is why I think a lot of Palestinians felt that
they threaded the needle well, is they didn't reject anything
that Trump said, but they said, Hamas is not Palestine.

(18:28):
Hamas is one actor. We can negotiate issues related to
the war because we're holding the captives and we're fighting
the war. But if you want to talk about all
these other issues, let's do it. But it has to
be in the context of a broader Palestinian dialogue. So
that's where things stand right now. There are indirect negotiations
that are supposed to kick off this week in Egypt.
The US and Israel, though said today that they're not

(18:52):
going to start doing the negotiations until Hamas first meets
with the Egyptians, the Qataris, and the Turks. And what
I'm told is that the America and Israelis are basically
pushing this idea that the Palestinians first need to agree
to release all of those captives, and that it cannot
be linked to a permanent Israeli withdrawal. That's going to
be a major sticking point. We have to see again

(19:13):
what Trump says, because at the end of the day,
he's the decisive factor. He's the only one that can
get Israel to back off of its maximalist agenda.

Speaker 2 (19:20):
Guys, let's go ahead and put a six up on
the screen. This is Jeremy's analysis and add some additional
reporting here. And one of the things the headline is
Hamasa's strategic gamble. You say, while President Trump enthusiastically welcomed
Hamasa's response to his Gaza plan, the White House and
Israel deal in deception. And one of the things that
you report on exclusively here is that those Arab countries

(19:41):
which were portrayed as being completely on board with this
quote unquote deal, they actually the version of the deal
that they saw went through some Israeli revisions before it
was actually announced. So can you break down some of
how all of that went and how those Arab coalition
partners are thinking about this?

Speaker 5 (20:00):
Yeah, I mean, this is sort of an astonishing story, Crystal.
So what happened is over the past several weeks leading
up to Trump and netnyah Who taking the podium and
announcing this twenty point plan, Trump and his administration had
a series of meetings with Egypt, with Qatar, with Turkey,
with Pakistan, with Indonesia, with Saudi Arabia, with the United
Arab Emirates, and they were going over drafts of what

(20:22):
was originally going to be a twenty one point plan
from Donald Trump. And just to give an example, one
of the things that was in an original draft shown
to Arab countries was that there was going to be
no Israeli annexation of the West Bank. That was removed
then from the plan that was distributed by the White
House last Monday when Trump and netnyah Who took the podium.

(20:43):
But what I understand is that in the forty eight
hours leading up to Trump and Netnyaho coming out, Steve Whitkoff,
Trump's special envoy, Jared Kushner, the President's son in law,
and Ron Dermer, Netnyah, Who's top political advisor and the
Minister for Strategic Affairs, sat down and they started just
plucking out various terms or changing the wording that the

(21:04):
Arab and Muslim nations had signed off on, and then
they also created a whole new map for Israeli withdrawal
that would leave Israeli forces deep within Gaza even after
all of the captives were released. Trump did not inform
any of those Arab countries ahead of time that these
changes had been made, and so foreign ministers of all

(21:26):
of those countries watched Trump and net Yahoo and they said,
wait a minute, this is not the text that we
had been shown. But they didn't denounce Trump. They didn't say, oh,
this was a lie. What they did is they sort
of sat there and ate it, and they put out
statements giving general statements of support for Trump's initiative. But privately,

(21:46):
I'm told Crystal, they told Hamas negotiators, this was not
what we signed on for, but we can't do anything
about it right now. So they encouraged Hamas, and I
think more than encouraged. I think they were saying to them,
this is really the last chance to make a deal.
You cannot reject Trump's deal, no matter how disgusted you
may be with some of the terms. And so I

(22:07):
think what we see is Trump kind of saying he
accepts the offer that Hamas didn't exactly make, and Hamas saying,
we accept your offer that you didn't exactly make. And
so now it really does boil down to it. You know,
there was this other thing that happened, which is that
I think NETANYAHUU and Israel were stunned at how enthusiastic

(22:27):
Trump was when he you know, something crazy that happened.
I don't know if you guys caught this, but Trump
puts out his statement saying, great, you know, Hamas has
just given us a really good response. And then the
White House posted a translation of Hamas's entire statement in full,
including its characterization of what Israel is doing in Gaza

(22:49):
as a genocide, referring to Israeli forces as occupation troops.
So the White House posts this thing and they said
an important statement from Donald Trump. So if they put
that out and then there's all these accusations, well now
Trump is Hamas, because of course the Israeli's accused everyone
of being Hamas the White House then you know, it
was up for quite a while. They then deleted it.
But what was happening is that the Israelis are spinning

(23:09):
this saying there were no surprises here. Everything has been
fully coordinated. Axios, though Barack Revide reported that when Netnyahu
did speak to Trump, he said to Trump, you know,
this is a terrible deal and it's meaningless what Hamas
has said. And then Trump says to him, why are
you always so effing negative? That was the quote that
was in Axios talking to net Yaho. So I think

(23:32):
what we have here is it's it's something a little
bit more than these fake stories about oh there's trouble
between net Yahoo and Trump. I think Trump, for his
own reasons we've discussed on this show before, actually does
want this done. He sees profit, you know, motivations in Gaza.
He wants development there, and he wants to Nobel Peace Prize. So,
you know, typically what happens is that the US has

(23:54):
something resembling a kerfuffle between you know, the whether it
was Biden or Trump and net Yaho, and then they
get in line and then the genocide resumes. This time,
there are other dynamics at play, including Trump's relationship with
these Arab countries. Yes, this could be an elaborate setup.
It's certainly possible that they're going to try to trick
Hamas into giving all of the Israeli captives and then

(24:15):
resume the genocide. But that would cause an earthquake in
Trump's relationships with these Arab countries, and I think Trump
genuinely does want he and his cronies to make a
lot of money off of what he believes will come
next in Gaza. The wild card, though, is the Palestinians
are saying, we're not going to give up our weapons.
We're not going to agree to disarmament. That's not for
Hamas to decide, that's for the Palestinian people. So that

(24:37):
I think is going to be the real serious sticking
point this week to look for is the Israelis don't
want any conditions given up to retrieve their forty eight captives,
twenty living, twenty eight deceased, and Hamas is saying, we're
not going to link demilitarization of the Palestinian people to
any of this. We need to negotiate an end to
this war alone.

Speaker 3 (24:57):
Yeah, and see, that is the sticking point where I
just can't to see resolution. But you seem a lot
more optimistic than me, Jeremy, because when I look at it,
it's very possible a hostage deal swaps, some sort of
temporary ceasefire seems totally within the realm of possibility. Can
you talk about how you said Hamas wants a Trump guarantee?
From my eyes, though, why would you want necessarily a

(25:19):
Trump guarantee when we were about to meet with the
Iranians and then we bomb them the next day. I mean,
that just seems sure. I mean, they have no position
necessarily to negotiate. But they have all those other Middle
Eastern countries around them, They have all of these disparate forces,
some which are acting on them saying, hey, as you
just said, you can't just surrender armed liberation or armed resistance.

Speaker 1 (25:39):
As a cause.

Speaker 3 (25:40):
How does that dynamic come into play here past the hostages?

Speaker 5 (25:43):
I mean, this has been true from the beginning, where
the Palestatian negotiators understand that Trump doesn't keep his word,
that he's an erratic guy. So they're not, you know,
going into this blind. They understand what it is. But
at the end of the day, they'll say, and I
talk to them about this, what other choice do we have.
We have to get as many countries as possible to
encourage Trump to stay the course on this. We need

(26:05):
Trump's guarantees and they understand and this is part of
why they are not going to agree to any sort
of disarmament that at an instant Trump could shift gears
and next thing you know, Net Yahoo is massively bombing
Gaza again. I am not optimistic. I'm just pointing out
that there are some different dynamics at play. Because of
Trump's unique posture as the President of the United States

(26:27):
and the fact that his family has massive business investments
in Katar, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, they have
a lot to gain from getting Net Nyahu to end
this war. From the Palestinian perspective, though, the way that
they approached this was to say, there are only a
handful of issues that Hamas has a mandate to negotiate.
Anything else must be negotiated among all Palestinian factions, and

(26:51):
I think that there's there's going to be a lot
of behind the scenes maneuvering. The Palestinian authority under Mahmudabas
is highly unpopular. Trump recently denied a visa to mah
Mudabas to come into the United States to speak at
the United Nations. Palestinians don't trust the Palestinian authority European
countries are trying to bolster it. So the question is

(27:11):
like what Palestinians are going to be in charge of
running Gaza and are they actually going to be in
charge or is it going to be the former Prime
Minister and unindicted war criminal Tony Blair that's presiding all
over this. This is going to be a huge boondoggle
if somehow Trump is able to move forward with these
so called development plans and a lot of his cronies
are going to make a lot of money, and those

(27:32):
Gulf states are going to make a lot of money.
So I'm saying that in real political terms, it's not
about the politics of this or the history of it.
The motivation from Trump, i think, is to try to
get the Nobel Prize and to try to set up
a situation where a lot of Westerners and Arab Golf
states make a lot of money off of Gaza.

Speaker 2 (27:52):
Attempted money grab and Jeremy, what's your sense of is
there any schism between the political leadership of Hamas and
the battle field commanders on the ground in Gaza.

Speaker 5 (28:03):
What's interesting is that part of what they had to
do to deliver this response to Trump is to distribute
drafts of this statement, and they did that among Palestinian factions,
and then they had to get it to the commanders
of the Casam brigades and Saya l kulds, the armed
forces that are holding the Israeli captives, and the political
leadership of Hamas on the ground. And my understanding was

(28:25):
that it went very quickly, that there were minor discussions
about language and questions that were asked, but that they
came to an agreement very swiftly. You know, the New
York Times, BBC other news outlets in recent days had reported, oh,
you know, the ground commanders are going to reject this thing.
They're hardliners. My sources, I think would tell me if

(28:46):
there were such divisions and the speed with which they
did this. Trump gave them an ultimatum on Friday, saying
they had until Sunday at six pm. They delivered their
response within hours of Trump making that three day window
for them. So no, I think there was debate of
a different nature within Hamas and Islamic Jihad, which was

(29:06):
do we reject this deal or do we try to
thread the needle. That was the real debate because a
lot of Palestinians read this document and say there's nothing
good in here for us, and a lot of suspicion.
It was a trap. The camp of people that prevailed
were the ones that said, we have to try to
think strategically, to go into it with an open mind,

(29:27):
to make ourselves appear to be the flexible party and
NETANYAHUU the obstructionists, and to appeal to Trump's ego and
to embrace the idea that we recognize and it's legitimate.
He's the only one that can end this war. And
that's what they did. I think they feel that they
gave the best response they could have, and now their
negotiators have arrived in Egypt. Khalil al Haya, the political
leader of Hamas. He made his first public appearance since

(29:49):
Israel tried to assassinate him in Doha, Qatar, on September ninth.
He gave a brief interview to an Arab TV network.
He didn't talk about the ceasefire processor of the agreement.
He talked about the the fact that Israel assassinated his
son in that bombing, and he said, you know, we're
not made of iron and stone. We grieve like everyone else,
but I see their lives as worth no more than

(30:11):
the lives of the other Palestinians who have died during
this genocide. So that's the tone that Khalil al Haya
is going into this with, having just lost his son,
having his wife injured in the bombing, his daughter in
law injured in the bombing, his grandchildren injured in the bombing.
That's the guy who's leading the negotiatingdirect negotiations now and
is going to be sitting effectively in a room next

(30:31):
to the Israeli negotiators who were going to do their
best to try to make sure the Palestinians get nothing
in return except their own prisoners freed from Israeli prisons
in return for all of their leverage, which is forty
eight Israeli captives, twenty living, twenty eight deceased.

Speaker 3 (30:48):
Jeremy, while we have you, we did want to get
an update on the sod flotilla. We do have here
a video of an Italian journalist who was on board,
who talked about the treatment that many of the captives,
including Greta Thunberg, suffered after they were taken captive by
the Israelis.

Speaker 1 (31:06):
Let's take a listen to that. We'll get your reaction.

Speaker 6 (31:08):
Greta to Umberg, a brave woman was only twenty two
years old. She was umiated and wrapped in an Israeli
flag and exhibited like a trophy. I had a feeling
of being in a really barbaric place, and I really
hope that this barbarism might be over soon.

Speaker 3 (31:25):
So that was an update there from the Italian journalist.
I know, Jeremy as well, that one of your own
journalists actually remains or was missing. I don't I believe
you don't have any update or status on it, So
can you just give us your reaction, as you know,
literally somebody with a direct connection here to the flotilla.

Speaker 5 (31:41):
Yeah, I mean one of our editors, Alex Colston, was
on one of the ships and he was snatched along
with the others by Israeli forces. Days ago. We got
an initial update confirming that he had been taken to
the port of Ashtad in Israel, and then he was
were told he was moved to this prison where they're

(32:01):
also holding figures from the Hamas resistance that have been
taken by Israel. But the Israeli government has given us
no updates whatsoever on Alex's status and there are also
no updates on the status of a lot of others. Yes,
many of them have been released. They're coming out and
they're describing bedbug infested cells, forms of abuse and mistreatment.

(32:24):
They were also subjected to a visit by Itamar Ben Gavier,
the Interior Security Minister of Israel, who ran around saying
that they're all going to be treated like terrorists. The
way that Israel treats Palestinians who it puts in its
prisons is to beat them, degrade them, torture them, subject
them to other forms of abuse. We've heard some very

(32:46):
disturbing reports about how these flotilla activists were treated, but
we remain deeply concerned about the fate of one of
our editors, Alex Colston, and I just want to say
at the end of the day that while all of
us should be paying attention to how are treating these
international activists, the fact is that there are as many
as fifteen thousand Palestinians, including women and children, that remain

(33:08):
in these Israeli facilities, and Israel is an entity that
subjects children to military tribunal systems and denies them access
to lawyers. We've seen prisoners being killed extra judicially inside
of Israeli prisons. So while we should focus on the
fact that our colleague Alex his status is unknown and

(33:30):
many of these people seem to be subjected to abuse,
what Palestinians have endured and these Israeli facilities is unconscionable
and the world really should be focusing on that as
an issue as well. And I know many of the
flotilla activists have made that point themselves.

Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yeah, of course. And you know, to your point there,
the peace deal from Trump actually contains a number of admissions,
including in the hostage exchange deal they talk about and
all of the women and children are going to be released,
which is you know, an admission that Israel is in
fact holding children hostage in their prison system, and then
also allowing the free flow of aid, which is another

(34:06):
admission that Israel is not allowing the free flow of aid,
which is something that they have denied vociferously.

Speaker 5 (34:12):
Yeah, I mean those are very important points, Crystal. And
another thing in there is the formula is for each
body of a deceased Israeli they're going to hand over
fifteen bodies of Palestinians. Remember how Trump's been focusing on
who holds dead bodies? Why do they have dead bodies there?
Israel for decades has had a practice of holding the

(34:33):
corpses of dead Palestinians in freezers or in graves marked
only by numbers. They have hundreds of bodies of Palestinians,
some that have been there for decades without returning them
to their families. This is a matter of national policy
in Israel. So what we see happening is that every
allegation that is made by Israel against Palestinians, Israel is

(34:57):
doing that on an industrial scale. And and there are
some rather interesting assertions in Trump's plan that if you
just peel the layer back a little bit, you recognize
that even Trump realizes that what Israel is doing very
much can be categorized as genocide. And you know, in

(35:18):
some cases extra judicial torture. You're talking about children being
in prison, and it references that in this it's an admission,
even though it's just a technical detail, the fact that
they put it in there it means they have to
be accountable for having that knowledge.

Speaker 2 (35:33):
And Jeremy, we also had some reporting here and people
are calling it the Barry Weiss buzzer beater from CBS
News about those initial attacks on the flotilla. Not that
this will come as any sort of a surprise, but
this is a ten guys, we can put this up
on the screen. They did learn that Netnyahu himself directly
approved those military operations against two of the flotilla vessels

(35:56):
early last month. The two American intelligence officials briefed on
the mat told CBS News Israeli forces on September eighth
and ninth launched drones from a submarine dropped incendiary devices
onto those boats that were moored outside a Tunisian port.
You know, I know with Israel, we just like these
things happen and it's just like, ah, it's just what

(36:16):
they do, sort of like you know, all sorts of
insanity that Trump does that just you know, no other
present could get away with. But just speak a little
bit to how extraordinary this is, how wild it is,
what rogue kind of lawless behavior this is from our
great ally Israel.

Speaker 5 (36:30):
Yeah, and remember that Israel also has a history of
killing people on these flotillas. And this isn't new. I mean,
this goes back in twenty ten. You had the Mavi
Marmara where Israeli special forces raided and they killed a
number of international activists on a flotilla. And it's important
to remember the context of this. Who are the people

(36:51):
on the flotilla and what are they doing. It includes
you know, lawmakers from countries around the world, you know
former ministers and governments, journalists, medical workers, activists, and they're
trying to break an illegal blockade, to bring infant formula,
to bring food, to bring other humanitarian goods. And Israel
uses high tech submarines to penetrate the waters of Tunisia,

(37:13):
to launch a drone to try to set the ships
on fire, to try to prevent these people from going
and breaking their illegal blockade so that their forced starvation
campaign can continue on. This is the kind of entity
that the world is dealing with. Most people's eyes are
open right now and they see clearly what Israel is,
especially under Benjamin NETANYAHUO. And the question is whether Trump's

(37:36):
interests are going to align with this massive shift in
public perception of what Israel is. The real question is
if Donald Trump's business and ego interests are going to
align with what clearly is a world that wants Israel
to stop committing genocide and stop acting as a pariah
state on the world stage.

Speaker 1 (37:57):
Very possible.

Speaker 3 (37:57):
We do have a bit of information here, maybe we
can have this post production these Reelly Foreign Ministry has
just released this one hundred and seventy one additional provocateurs
from the Hamas flotilla, including Greta Tunberg, were deported today
from Israel to Greece and Slovakia. Deporties are citizens and
they list the various countries. They say quote all the
legal rights of the participants in this pr stunt were

(38:18):
and will continue to be fully upheld. The lies they
are spreading are part of their pre planned fake news campaign,
so that fits largely what we've seen. Jeremy I did
note that they call it the Hamas Sumud flotilla, but
that's kind of what they've been saying from the beginning.

Speaker 5 (38:33):
Yeah, and again remember that this is accusation number one
that Israel always makes against anyone that dares to be
a doctor or a or a medical worker, or an
activist or a journalists. It's their Hamas. So you know,
Israel has used that so much that it just is
void of any meaning. But the fact is that Israel

(38:55):
violently took custody of activists who were trying to break
their illegal siege and is trying to cover it up
by just bombarding the space with its own lies. It's
a pattern we've seen for the past two years, in
fact for many decades.

Speaker 3 (39:06):
All right, well, we will continue to monitor the drop site,
reporter Alex, and we hope for a safe return.

Speaker 1 (39:12):
So thank you very much for joining us, Jeremy. We
appreciate you analysis.

Speaker 5 (39:15):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (39:18):
So, we got a bunch of legal updates for you.
These were late breaking last night with regard to Trump's
attempt to send the National Guard into Portland, Oregon. In particular,
he is also trying to federalize National Guard to send
into Chicago, Illinois'll get.

Speaker 4 (39:32):
To that in a moment.

Speaker 2 (39:33):
So the TLDR here is that you had a Trump
appointed judge who said, no, you can't federalize Oregon's National
Guard over their objections and send them in.

Speaker 4 (39:42):
I'm issuing a temporary restraining order.

Speaker 2 (39:44):
Then Trump said, okay, well, since we can't send in
the Oregon National Guard, We've already federalized the California National Guard.
We'll just send some of them in. So this judge
had an emergency hearing last night and said no, you
cannot send any National Guard, whether it's from organ Alfornia.
Texas has also been floated, you cannot send the National
Guard into this state. I'm issuing a temporary restraining order

(40:08):
while the process plays out and the case is decided
on the merits. California's Attorney General waded and sort of
explained the legal process yesterday evening, let's go ahead and
take a listen to that.

Speaker 7 (40:18):
Hey, judge had already said yesterday that the conditions on
the ground absolutely do not justify the federalization of National Guard.
They don't justify the federalization of Oregon National Guard. And
so the federal government, in its ingenious thinking, said, well,

(40:39):
her order though it said there were no conditions to
bring the National Guard, federalized National Guard to Oregon, applied
to the Oregon National Guard how about we bring in
California National Guard work? And she was completely miffed. I
just listened in on entire hearing. First of all, thank
you to my incredible team Dole teams in Oregon and Portland.

(41:01):
There's a team effort, folks working overtime. Obviously, today's a
Sunday and Marchest needs to be protected every day, and
the rule of law does as well.

Speaker 5 (41:09):
And she was really miffed.

Speaker 7 (41:11):
Her first set of questions of the federal government, where
how does this not violate my order from yesterday? And
I think she's right, you know that this sort of
super technical approach to try to bring national guard in
that's from another state. And just minutes before the hearing commenced,

(41:32):
we got word through a memorandum from the Secretary of
Hegseth that the Texas National Guard has been federalized, two
thousand of them, with four hundred of them being deployed
to both Portland and in Chicago. So it is clear
that it's a sort of whack a mole approach from
the federal government. You stop the Oregon National Guard from

(41:53):
being federalized, We'll bring up the California National Guard. You
stop the California National Guard for being brought up north.
We'll bring in the Texas National Guard. You stop them,
we got you know who's got next? You know, we
got a bunch of others we can bring in. And
so we asked her, the judge to issue a broad
order that says that applies to every national Guard in

(42:14):
every state and the District of Columbia, and that none
of them can be deployed community federalized and deployed to Oregon.
And she issued that order from the bench. She's going
to back it up with a written order as well.
But she was concerned based on the behavior of the
federal government about what the scope of her order should
be and believed and I agree that a broad order

(42:37):
that is broad in scope is appropriate.

Speaker 2 (42:39):
So that's the nuts and bolts of what happened here.
I did go and look at the judge's original orders
are because you know, there's a lot of talk about Portland,
this insurrection, blah blah blah, and so okay, what's the
reality of what's been going on here? And this is
all focused around this one ice facility in the city
of Portland, and even what the government claimed in order
to justify federalizing the National Guard, which is an extraordinary

(43:03):
action which requires something on the level of like a
rebellion or an insurrection, the most they could point to
were a few incidents from like June and July where
he had protesters shining lights in people's eyes, those sorts
of things, And in recent weeks leading up to the
federalization of the National Guard, they said that the typical
nightlife in downtown Portland required more law enforcement resources than

(43:27):
what was happening outside of this ice facility you were
talking about, you know, eight to twenty protesters who would
be there just sort of like sitting around in lawn chairs.
And so that's why she said that this, you know,
even with granting a lot of latitude to the federal government,
that they were likely the Oregon was likely to succeed
in their case because there was nothing approaching insurrection or

(43:49):
rebellion that even the government could point to that was
happening here.

Speaker 3 (43:52):
The interesting line one of my friends come through the decision.
He's a legal analyst, and he flagged this line from
the judges ruling.

Speaker 1 (43:58):
Quote.

Speaker 3 (43:58):
On the night September twenty, twenty twenty five, national Guard
or mobilization was announced, the size of protests increased substantially,
ballooning to around two hundred, with a second protest at
a different location, including a quote few hundred. Moreover, this
quote notes that in Los Angeles, the National Guard mobilizations
quote inflame protests spawned unrest at new locations and required
additional resources from California Highway Patrol. I thought that was

(44:21):
actually kind of an interesting flag from the judges ruling
about the practicality about what they're claiming to their claiming
to quash. And yes, I also have been honestly mystified
at where Portland came from, because I mean, Chicago made
sense in the Trump narrative right about prime. I mean, look,
no one's going to deny that Chicago has a huge
crime problem, or even in respect to Washington, DC, they'd

(44:45):
also talked about Memphis. But Portland honestly came out of nowhere,
and so I had to do some digging.

Speaker 1 (44:51):
It seems to me that.

Speaker 3 (44:52):
Quite a lot of this is retcon revenge for twenty
seventeen twenty twenty, which I mean to be fair, Portland
was genuinely out of control under the first Trump administration.
There were huge ice protests. You'll remember there was there
was like some conflict or my memory is escaping me,
and I forget exactly who the mayor was. This was

(45:13):
like a big thing with Antifa and there were nightly
protests and then their BLM with Portland was insane. And
so anyway, from what I have been able to tell,
most of this is revenge on Portland for twenty seventeen
to two years and twenty. Yeah, and so I think
that's kind of the context through which I have been
able to see this, because it's like you said, I

(45:34):
looked at the protest, I was like, okay, I mean
is protests. The administration's argument is that the Portland police
are refusing to do any backup of ICE, which I mean,
I guess is technically within their rights, right, I mean,
if you have a city and a police department. I
don't know, I don't really know how it all works
in terms of whether you have like an obligation to
back up federal law enforcement if that's what the police

(45:56):
chief and the mayor are telling you not to do. Whatever,
there's civilian control, but that seems to be the justification
for some three hundred National guardsmen. All of it is
really centered, like you said, around this ICE facility. But
from what I could see, there was not a big
protest around this, And if you look at it in
the context of twenty seventeen to twenty twenty, it starts
to make a lot more sense.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
Yeah, I mean, I just looked at it as Portland
as kind of Portland and Seattle were most strongly associated
with quote unquote Antifa and since.

Speaker 3 (46:24):
They're doing this, it's a lair point. I mean, it
was like it was crazy. Remember Seattle had chopped or
what but not.

Speaker 2 (46:30):
But that's what I'm saying, Like, in terms of where
this came from, none of it has to make sense, right,
They'll just use any excuse. And so since they're making
this big Antifa push and there's this association with Portland
and Antifa, I think that's where it came from. But
I actually have the piece from the judge's decision, which
again this is a temporary restraining order. What they had

(46:52):
to find is that Oregon is likely to succeed on
the merits. But this will, you know, continue through the
court system. There will be a final decision here. Again
worth noting, this is a Trump judge, This isn't some
lib And in California, what happened is the initial federal
district judge ruled on newsom side, and then when it
went to the appeals court, they ruled against Newsom.

Speaker 4 (47:11):
This judge went.

Speaker 2 (47:12):
Out of her way to separate this case from what
was happening in California, and I think that is fair, Liza.
I disagree with the appeals court decision there, but there
were genuine like there was stuff happening. We saw the
cars on fire, like there were protests, there were arrests
being made, there were violent incidents, et cetera. Do I
think any of that came in close to justifying federalizing
the National Guard. No, but that was a different, a

(47:35):
different beast entirely than these like eight to twenty people
who were sitting in lawn chairs outside of an ice facility.
Well within their rights, by the way, you're allowed to
protest the federal government, and so I within this ruling
from the judge, she cites what the government was even
using to claim the power to federalize the National Guard.
And two of the things were just like, well, things

(47:57):
happen in other parts of the country, and they could
happen here, or you know, we have yes it's small now,
but maybe in the future something that could happen. So
we got to be there just a case.

Speaker 4 (48:05):
And she's like, you can't.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
You can't do this just based on like your idea
of something that might happen in the future. The specific
incidents they point to, she says. Defendants Declarence describe only
four incidents. A protesters clashing with federal officers in the
month of September, preceding the federalization order on September first, ninth, twelfth,
and without further specification. The second week of September. First
involved protesters setting up a makeshift guillotine to intimidate federal officials.

(48:31):
That seems legal to me anyway. The second involved four
people shining overpowered flashlights in the eyes of drivers, third
involves someone posting a photograph of an unmarked ice vehicle online,
and the last involved additional drivers having flashlights shown in
their eyes. So that's the month of That's the only
thing that could even point to happening in the month
of September. I think any reasonable person would look at

(48:52):
that and be like, you probably don't need the National.

Speaker 4 (48:54):
Guard to deal with that.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
But all of that being said, let's go ahead and
take a listen to how Trump is characterizing what is
going on in Portland, which apparently bears no relation to
what reality was prior to, you know, to their extraordinary
sort of uptick in federal presence there. This is the
first element in this block eye.

Speaker 4 (49:14):
Let's go and play it.

Speaker 5 (49:15):
We're going to look at that. It was amazing Portland
is burning to the ground. It's insurrection to so all.

Speaker 8 (49:22):
Over the place it's Antifa, and yet the politicians who
are petrified.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
Look, the politicians are freak for their lives.

Speaker 6 (49:29):
That's the only reason that.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
They say like there's nothing happening.

Speaker 5 (49:33):
And you've seen it.

Speaker 2 (49:34):
The place is burning down, and they pretend like there's
nothing happening.

Speaker 5 (49:38):
So we'll take a look at the order. We haven't
seen the order yet.

Speaker 2 (49:41):
So I don't know what he saw in Fox News
or whatever or just invented or was told by Stephen Miller,
but in his view, the place is burning to the ground.
He called it war ravaged Portland, completely absurd. And so anyway,
that's where we are in terms of the legal system.

Speaker 4 (49:56):
We can also go ahead and play that.

Speaker 2 (49:57):
In Chicago separately, there is has been a major escalation
in terms of federal agents. On Friday, we showed you
that absolutely horrific apartment rate, kids, adults pulled out of
their beds middle of the night, American citizen not American citizen,
freaking black hawk helicopters, people repelling onto the roof, little kids,

(50:17):
zip tied, naked, thrown into U haul van. So that's
all happening in Chicago, and according to Governor Pritzker, and also,
according to independent reporting, Trump is now planning to try
to federalize the Illinois National Guard to send into Chicago
as well. Let's go ahead and play B two. This
is Governor J. B. Pritzker responding to the Trump administration escalation.

Speaker 4 (50:40):
There.

Speaker 8 (50:40):
Let me just say that the secretary doesn't know what
she's talking about. She frankly says that people are clapping.
They're not. They're booing her on the street, and they're
booing ICE and CBP. They're marching, the CBP marching on
a beautiful Sunday in Michigan Avenue in Downtownshire. They're raiding

(51:01):
neighborhoods where instead of going after the bad guys, they're
just picking up people who are brown and black and
then checking their credentials. Are you a US citizen? I
don't know about you, but I don't carry around papers
that say I'm a US citizen. So you can imagine
people are getting detained, they're getting arrested US citizens. And
they did this, of course, when they raided a building

(51:22):
in the middle of the night in South Shore. One
hundred and thirty people that were emptied out of this building.
They were going after a few gang members, and instead
they broke windows, they broke down doors, they ransacked the place,
and there were people that were held, I mean elderly
people and children, ZIP tied, elderly people held for three
hours at a time. They are the ones that are

(51:44):
making it a war zone. They need to get out
of Chicago. If they're not going to focus on the
worst of the worst, which is what the President said
they were going to do, they need to get the
heck out.

Speaker 2 (51:54):
And so that's all before the National Guard is brought
in in Chicago. And you know, Pritz gurm is planning
a lawsuit also to prevent the federal government from federalizing
the National Guard in his state. So we'll see what
happens there. Stephen Miller can put B five up on
the screen, posting just some absolutely wild stuff, especially in
the wake of the initial decision from the again Trump

(52:17):
appointed judge who said you cannot federalize the National Guard
and send them into Portland at this time. So he
says in these separate posts, number one, our system is
under attack from within. A Democrat federal judge is showing
extreme leniency during the monster who tried to assassinate justice
in the highest court in our land. Consider the message
that sense to left wing terrorists, understand what is happening here.
So that is about the person who death threats attempted

(52:40):
to I think kill Brett Kavanaugh. And then in this
other one he says legal insurrection. The president is the
commander in chief of the armed force, is not an
Oregon judge. Portland and Oregon law enforcement, the direction of
local leaders have refused to aid ice officers facing relentless terrors,
assault and threats to life. There are more local law
enforcement officers in Oregon than there are guns and madges
in the FBI nationwide. This is an organized terrorist attack

(53:02):
on the federal government and its officers, and the deployment
of troops is an absolute necessity to defend our personnel,
our laws, our government, public order, and the republic itself.
And you know, there have been a number of other
posts from Steven Miller, just painting, you know, the country
as already in a civil war, as Democrats being this
well organized terrorist network, as Portland being you know, war ravaged,

(53:27):
in the words of the president of this Trump appointed judge,
as this you know, this temporary restraining order constituting legal insurrection.
So and Steven Miller, you know, and with regard to
these deployments, seems to be running the show. So this
isn't just some random Trump official. This is a very
powerful guy who's wielding a lot of power in the
administration right now, and a lot of this plan seems

(53:47):
to come directly from him.

Speaker 3 (53:48):
It does seem to come directly from him. And I've
been actually thinking quite about it. I've been talking about
with some friends. I'm like, what is this strategy here?

Speaker 1 (53:55):
I'll give you the cope.

Speaker 3 (53:56):
The cope is basically that there are not that many
people who are actually in federal protective service whose job
it is to quote unquote protect people who are federal employees,
if that makes sense, as in most DHS quote cops
are not cops in the traditional sense.

Speaker 1 (54:12):
That's why I note the Portland thing.

Speaker 3 (54:13):
They're like, that's why we need three hundred people to
from the National Guard, because we don't actually have that
many people to protect our personnel. And if they're you know,
our personnel are not going to have any assistance from
law enforcement, then that So that's the official explanation.

Speaker 4 (54:26):
I'd you talking about the personnel at the Ice building, Ice.

Speaker 3 (54:28):
The Ice building exactly well out on a raid. If
they're saying, like, for example, there's videos of people like
Ice who are in a raid or whatever and they're
getting run off by people around them, and it's like, well,
if the cops aren't going to do anything about that,
then you need somebody to do something. If it's going
to be a federal person. So that's their justification for
why they're doing it. I also think a lot of
it is to actually invite some of these fights with
the Blue States over federal authority and to force a

(54:51):
lot of this to the Supreme Court. This term of
the Supreme Court is one of the most extraordinary for
executive power. The Supreme Court actually returnally to rule on
a lot of these shadow docket decisions to official real
rulings as to for example, the Federal Trade Commission Lisa Cook.
There's so many executive power decisions that are coming up there,
and that's part of the decision there. I also think

(55:13):
broadly they seem to think this is a winning political position.
So you can disagree legal and trust me, I'm Blackhawk
helicopters in downtown Chicago. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (55:22):
I think it's crazy.

Speaker 3 (55:24):
However, what they seem to believe is that some sort
of like shockunawe approach on immigration seems to be like
their winning message.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
And this is one.

Speaker 3 (55:34):
Where I think they're really off the mark, because what
they don't seem to understand is that why did to
the extent I think would say immigration was a number
two issue in the twenty twenty four election. Number one
was Biden's age, so okay, that's most important, But number two,
I think it was the border. I think it was
a ten to fifteen million people who came here illegally.
What were people outraged about in that situation? They were

(55:54):
outraged at lawlessness and at chaos. And so the problem
I think for them is that it seems to me
as if they are leaning instead in the opposite direction,
where look, they shut the border on which I think
is great.

Speaker 1 (56:06):
I think it's amazing.

Speaker 3 (56:07):
However, as the more they appear as the chaos agent,
then they're the ones who are going to get to
get to blame for all of the media stories. Right,
so Biden owned the chaos of the border and the
attendant surge, let's say, crime.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
Chaos, whatever.

Speaker 3 (56:19):
Right, all of that, rightfully, I think was put on
Biden and on Komma because they said, hey, look, some
of these people will not here rape and murdering people
if you'd never let them in.

Speaker 1 (56:26):
You had a chaotic system.

Speaker 3 (56:28):
The Democrats don't have an answer other than legalizing them,
and so we have to shut the border down. We
need to do something about it. Most people actually were
broadly on top of that message. When you start to
see the Blackhawk and you see the federalization of troops,
I think rightfully people start to go, hey, you know,
this is a little weird here. If we start to
see it all over the place, and they start to
get very squeamish at that idea as it extends. So

(56:48):
I don't know, I mean, it's a very it's bad.
I have no other word for it. It's crazy. I don't
think that in a reality that most people who voted
for Trump is specifically on the issue of immigration, thought
that this is what they were I really don't. I mean,
and I people can go back and look, it's fine.
I mean, we talked about alien in the Alien Enemies Act.
We knew something like that was coming on MS thirteen.

(57:09):
We knew that deportation itself, ice, et cetera.

Speaker 1 (57:12):
But I don't quite.

Speaker 3 (57:13):
Think people understood or I mean, it was never floated ever.
And I read a lot of the documents, even Project
twenty twive or anything like straight.

Speaker 1 (57:21):
Up Blackhawk helicopters.

Speaker 3 (57:23):
And also there's just this weird there's almost a twenty
twenty five aisization. You sent this about all these cameras,
like why are all of these films and put out
like a Michael bay video right so to me, I mean,
it just is weird, like you have the theovonn video
right where we're like playing around with Theovonne videos and
tweeting them out from.

Speaker 1 (57:43):
The official DHS account.

Speaker 3 (57:44):
It is like, hey, this is not a meme, man,
you know, it's like, it's not it's not funny per se.
You can support law and order, which I do. You
can suppedit to reportation, which I do. To revel in
the mem ification of it seems to me like you're
stepping things and over reading a mandate in very different ways. However, look,
I hit this with them and they hit it back

(58:05):
to me. Trump's got still got a highproval on immigration
is number one issue.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
If we look, it's like dramatically underwe he's high.

Speaker 3 (58:12):
Everybody else his disapproved rating. Crystal is exactly the same
as it was three months ago. Hasn't budged a single issue, right, So,
like most people, if you talk to the Republican faithful,
by the way, if we're talking about base, you're saying
the base hates ice.

Speaker 8 (58:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
Let me tell you something. This is like pornography for boomers.

Speaker 3 (58:27):
Yeah, for a lot of these ice you know, these
ice videos and stuff.

Speaker 1 (58:30):
So I don't know.

Speaker 3 (58:31):
I mean, if I look at it generally, it seems
more irreconcilable than ever, just purely on terms of the
politics and where things are going. A lot of it
also is shock and awe because they want self deportation,
which I mean, you do have to say it did
work if some one point two million people left the
country in the last I think in the last eight months,
So that's part of the strategy.

Speaker 2 (58:52):
My fear is that they don't actually care about the politics,
that it's all just about power, and that this is
about this is about a war.

Speaker 4 (59:00):
Truly a war.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
I mean you have to call it that when you're
talking about sending Texas National Guard into Oregon or into
California or into Chicago or whatever.

Speaker 4 (59:10):
Truly a war.

Speaker 2 (59:11):
On Blue states, blue cities Democrats in general, and not
just like ANTIF and the left, but they consider like
Gavin Newsome to be some wild radical terrorist insider, et cetera.
And so when you put together this crackdown, I think
these some of the things they have done could genuinely
be characterize as like terrorist attacks, like what they did

(59:32):
to that apartment building, absolutely insane, terrorizing these cities, you know,
crushing descent on the media front, crushing descent with the
law firms, with the universities, with any sort of pro
Palestine speech across the board. It is a consolidation of power.
Even the terriffs or that you know, fining Lisa Cook,
all of these things, the indictment of Comy I don't

(59:52):
like Homie, but you know, clearly weaponization of the DOJ.
There was reporting that came out they wanted a whole
purp walk with like Burley FBI, pull.

Speaker 4 (01:00:00):
Them mount, et cetera.

Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
This is all a theater and a show and a
reality of a consolidation of power so that people are afraid.
They're afraid to speak out, they're afraid to fight back.
They're afraid that you know, if they're the governor or
the mayor who says something bad about Trump that next
is going to be troops invading their town, et cetera.
That's what I really think that this is ultimately about

(01:00:22):
on the immigration front. You know, I think you're right
about the sense that people get of like, first of all,
this is just you're just like delighting and cruelty, which
is horrible. Second of all, the blowback to American citizens
is so apparent at this point. You gatt in that
apartment build like that was you know, there were some
undocumented immigrants there according to the government. I'm sure there

(01:00:43):
were apparently there were some venezuela and migrants there. It
was mostly you know, black Americans who were in that
apartment building, who who did nothing wrong, who were pulled
out in the middle of the night, their kids traumatize.

Speaker 4 (01:00:54):
All of these things you can go through.

Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
You can watch you know, there's a video of an
American business owner in Calfour, he seventy nine years old,
who was trying to show the Ice agents his papers
for his workers. They throw them to the ground, they
jump on him, they break his ribs. He had trauma.
There was the woman you know who bereft, woman whose
husband was being taken by Ice for deportation at the
courthouse in New York. She's grabbed by the hair, thrown

(01:01:20):
to the ground again, had trauma. Initially they come out, oh,
this was unacceptable. A week later, the agent who did
that is right back on the job. There was a
US Army veteran. New York Times wrote up a story
of a number of American citizens who have been brought
in by ice and detained by Ice in these really
aggressive ways. US Army veteran in California is trying to
get to his job at a farm where he served

(01:01:42):
as security, and there was some sort of protest the
Ice age. He told them, I'm just trying to get
to work here. They broke in the windshield of his car,
shot pepper spray in his face, and detained him with
no lawyer, no call, no rights, no due process, no nothing,
for three days. So those are the sorts of things
that people are increasingly seeing where. You know, for me,

(01:02:05):
I don't think you should be comfortable with these things
happening to immigrants either. But there is a large segment
of society it's like, well, they came here illegal, what
are you going to do now? It is undeniable, the
way that American citizens are having their lives turned upside
down by this federal government. And like you said, I
don't think they have like a plausible case that they're
coming in to correct the chaos. When they come in,

(01:02:25):
it is stoking chaos. And then with the presence of
the cameras in this it's also very clear the way
that it is all for. It is a reality, but
it's also for a show that they want to put
on to intimidate people.

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
For me, it's just about being you're totally out of control.

Speaker 3 (01:02:39):
Like in many of these places, you're like, dude, what
are you guys doing.

Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
I don't know about everybody else. I grew up in
a small town.

Speaker 3 (01:02:44):
A lot of these guys remind me of small town cops, right,
who when they just stop somebody for weed, they're like,
oh man, this is the biggest day of my life,
although you know it's stopping self where we may be
a good thing but actually.

Speaker 4 (01:02:55):
Have no experience with my small town.

Speaker 1 (01:02:57):
Are they good? Yeah, well they.

Speaker 4 (01:02:59):
Rescue my life or when she has lost in the
wis oh okay?

Speaker 5 (01:03:01):
All right?

Speaker 4 (01:03:02):
Well, and some of them, first, here's my thing.

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
We're not saying they're all bad.

Speaker 3 (01:03:05):
We're just saying like there is a specific archetype of
the small town cop who wants to be a hero
and wants to not even just to be a hero
on a power trip. It works out a planet fitness
and he has been waiting for the day of his
life to practice a YouTube jiu jitsu video and we
all know it. And that seems to be some of
the energy. I you know, again, I struggle with this

(01:03:27):
because look, I know this is part of like how
did we all get here again?

Speaker 1 (01:03:32):
Chaos, lawlessness at the border.

Speaker 3 (01:03:35):
There was no legitimate solution, democratic solution that was accepted
by the American people for the democratic view of illegal immigration.
Under the Biden administration, people agreed with deportation. I still
think people agree with deportation. The question has to be
about law and order. And this is also where I mean,
I don't know, I'm curious where you think things are going, because,

(01:03:55):
let's be honest, abolish ice in twenty eighteen was a
political disaster. A disaster. I think it's actually very interesting.
I have not seen that sort of rhetoric re emerge
even in the midst of where we're to be honest,
you're probably more legitimate saying it today.

Speaker 4 (01:04:09):
That I have seen it and I support it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
Okay, yeah, but let's all sit with that.

Speaker 3 (01:04:14):
That all seemed like the hot, you know, thing to
do in twenty eighteen, and so what happened, Oh, ICE
is fascist deportation, etc. So now we let's flood the
country with ten to fifteen million illegals and you're gonna
lose the election. So that's my question here is about like,
what are legitimate law and order solutions to this, Because
at the same time, let's be honest here, a huge

(01:04:34):
amount of the left supports like actual violence against ICE.
That doesn't mean that they should be wearing masks or
acting totally out of You don't become the enemy in
my enemy, you know, you don't become the mirror image of.

Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
What we support should criticize.

Speaker 3 (01:04:47):
But this kind of leaves everybody to dig in and say, hey,
let's be real. Twenty seventeen to twenty twenty was fucking crazy.
BLM is burning shit down, you have ICE antifelulis throwing
rocks and shit at ICE agents, which.

Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
Again, let's be real people.

Speaker 3 (01:05:04):
Actually, I would say, by and large, just like a
leftist coalition that supports that how do we get ourselves
out of this? I mean, because what's the inverse abolish ice,
like okay, good luck.

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
I mean, I don't see it.

Speaker 3 (01:05:15):
You know, kids and crazes, kids in cages, crocodile tears.
Whenever Obama was doing the same thing, like it all
reeks me of the same kind of pushback narrative.

Speaker 1 (01:05:23):
And then we're just going to come right back here,
because that's what I would say.

Speaker 3 (01:05:28):
I would say, we're here today because of the failures
of the center but largely the center left and of
the far left overreach on immigration. They are largely to
blame for American public opinion shifting this far. Now. Of
course there's agency in the Trump administration, et cetera. But
as you just said, you need to grapple with the
fact that a huge portion of the public is like, no,
we're fucking done. All this empathy and all that got

(01:05:48):
what mass illegals here in the country.

Speaker 1 (01:05:50):
We can't have that.

Speaker 3 (01:05:51):
Most people agree with that, I would say broadly in
saying like it was a totally out of control situation,
like how do we dig ourselves out of it?

Speaker 2 (01:05:59):
It's wild up for grabs on immigration and.

Speaker 4 (01:06:01):
The swinging underbid.

Speaker 2 (01:06:04):
The swings that we've seen just since Trump was elected
are truly wild. I mean, he is dramatically underwater on immigration. Now,
you're right, it was one of his strongest issues coming in.
You know, my perspective is different in terms of how
we got here. I mean, I see it zooming out.
I see it more broadly as a failure of the

(01:06:25):
center left to offer an alternative view of the world
that is not about your problems are because of immigrants,
that is.

Speaker 4 (01:06:33):
But that is the truth.

Speaker 2 (01:06:34):
It is the reality because the whole reason that this
narrative has purchased is because you have people who feel
like they are struggling in their lives. They feel like
the world has passed them. They feel like they're not
able to get ahead. They feel like you know, inflation is,
they're struggling to pay their bills, the grocery bills are
a healthcare is expensive, Like, I don't know that my
kids are going to be able to even have the
life that I have.

Speaker 4 (01:06:55):
What is coming to and they're looking for what went wrong?

Speaker 2 (01:06:59):
And has a very clear and the right broadly but specifically,
Trump has this very clear narrative. It's and immigrants are
central to the not the only scapegog, but that's central
to it. And if you don't offer an alternative explanation,
that people are going to gravitate towards that solution. But
you know, when you say mass deportation, right, when I
heard that, I'm not sure that I saw black Hawk

(01:07:21):
helicopters repelling onto apartment buildings in Chicago, but I knew
it would entail mass, yes, chaos. I knew it would
entail infringement not just on immigrants rights, but on American
citizens rights because it has to because if you're going
to sort the immigrant from the non immigrant, it is
going to require surveillance, and you know it's going to
require a heavy hand from the paragarment.

Speaker 4 (01:07:42):
I think you would acknowledge that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
So, like I said, I didn't envision kids naked, zip
tied together.

Speaker 4 (01:07:48):
In new haul vans, but I knew it would be brutal.

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
But I think for a lot of people, when they
saw mass deportation, they thought like the criminals, right, And
Trump consistently in this campaign more than previously portray the
undocumented immigrants, as Kermey talked about, Oh, they're emptying out
the insane asylums and so there was this image of
the undocumented immigrant in general as being this criminal character

(01:08:11):
and we got to find them, we got to lock
them up, we got them, get them out of the country.

Speaker 4 (01:08:14):
And yes, people are on board with I'm on board
with that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:16):
If you've got, you know, someone who's violent, criminal, I
don't want them in the country, you know, even in
my most expansive immigration view. But as the rubber has
met the road and people see what it actually means,
and you see, actually Stephen Miller doesn't prioritize criminals. He
prioritizes random dudes at home depot. He prioritizes random, you know,
migrants in an apartment building that, like some slumlord is

(01:08:38):
trying to get evicted. He is overtly told his law enforcement,
you know, whether it's Iceer or others, that they need
to stop wasting their time doing these complicated gang cases
because that takes time to develop and that's more difficult
case work, and just go for the numbers. So you
have many fewer of the much smaller percentage of the

(01:08:59):
immigrants or in federal custody actually have any sort of
criminal indictment then under prior administration. So in any case,
it's a long way of saying that. You know, I
think you're right that when people actually see these images
and grapple with what is being done in their cities
and they put it together with the other you know,
crackdowns that are coming on speech and weaponization of the

(01:09:21):
government and war on elected officials and democratic elected officials
in states and cities across the country, that they are
broadly repulsed. Now, you're right his approval rating basically.

Speaker 1 (01:09:34):
Where it's because.

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
People are so it's not good. It's like forty forty
two percent something like that. People are very locked in
with their with their views of Trump. But I do
want to get to we have some of those images
just so people can see for themselves, you know, some
of the things that are unfolding. These are all from
Chicago and Portland. So this is a sniper in an
armored vehicle. I'm I think that's a pepper ball, Okay,

(01:09:58):
that was in broad view outside of this is also
this is actually Portland, and this is really important. I
want you to notice not only this, like you know,
mass Show of Forever is all hit it up and
look like stormtroopers and then you got these camera guys,
but camera. You know you got the iPhone, dude, you
had a couple of camera guys. This is Chicago PD

(01:10:20):
that was actually tear gased by Ice.

Speaker 4 (01:10:22):
So the local law.

Speaker 2 (01:10:23):
Enforcement Chicago PAD here struggling after they were tear gased
by Ice. There was another incident where Ice tear gas.
You're an elementary school. The elementary school had to you know,
cancel recess, keep everybody inside because of the random like
ice tear gasing in their neighborhoods. So it was incredibly

(01:10:44):
heavy handed tactics, even impacting elementary schools and police officials
as well. And we have more images here. This is
still more Chicago Police Department recovering from being tear gas
which is just an insane situation. Actually, the Broadview Illinois
Police chief says that they're getting fake nine to one
one calls from Ice agents as well, and it's incredibly

(01:11:07):
taxing to their resources.

Speaker 4 (01:11:10):
Here you have, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:11:11):
A confrontation from Ice and protesters. I believe this is
in Chicago. I had double check that I believe this
is in Chicago. These scenes that are occurring again, this
is before the National Guard comes in.

Speaker 4 (01:11:24):
This is for sure Portland.

Speaker 2 (01:11:25):
Those are sniper's stationed on the rooftop, you know, overlooking
this area outside the ice building where these protests were occurring.
So this is some of what's you know, being done
on city streets.

Speaker 3 (01:11:36):
My thing is, I don't think this was inherent mass deportation.
I think this is genuinely a Trump thing. Like I
don't think that this is necessarily how.

Speaker 4 (01:11:44):
Its like a Stephen Miller thing.

Speaker 3 (01:11:46):
It is genuinely a vision for them about division, which
let's again let's be very real here, it has worked
to their political benefit. We can read a pull all
we want. Who knows, I mean, New Jersey's looking kind
of close to me if you have been looking that
the New.

Speaker 1 (01:12:00):
Jersey race republic can could win in the state.

Speaker 3 (01:12:02):
And again listen roll the tape, make fun of me
if if he loses, it could be Gavin Newsome.

Speaker 1 (01:12:07):
Recall cope that.

Speaker 4 (01:12:08):
I'm muffing right now, But it's possible.

Speaker 1 (01:12:11):
It's possible.

Speaker 3 (01:12:11):
So like, let's be honest, you know, also about the
political dynamics. But to return to kind of something you
were saying earlier, and this is where I see it,
Grand Platner going viral for people are being lied to.

Speaker 1 (01:12:22):
Guys. We live in a country with finite amount of resources.

Speaker 3 (01:12:24):
To say it's a lie that massive amounts of illegals
are not going to tax the system is ridiculous. It's
ridiculous to say you can allow ten to fifteen million
people into a country over a four year period and
it's not gonna have some crazy effect, especially when the
absolute vast majority of them are non skilled, don't speak
any English, and are not going to integrate into our
society on a very easy basis. If we just grant

(01:12:46):
them all citizenship, every single one of them is going
to be on welfare. And so the point is, it's like,
you can't just live in a world crystal. If twenty
three percent of the people, If twenty three percent of
the people enter the country illegally, don't speak English and
don't have a high school diploma, what's gonna happen.

Speaker 1 (01:12:59):
They're gonna endup on welfare.

Speaker 3 (01:13:00):
Look at the statistics of our own population in that
group who end up on welfare.

Speaker 1 (01:13:04):
It's huge.

Speaker 3 (01:13:04):
That's listen, not saying they're bad people. We got to
take care of our own first. It is actually a
world of finite resources. I mean, I know there was
this whole discussion about e RS. Yeah, it's crazy that
you allow all these people here illegally and they get
hit by a car by the way, with no insurance,
and then who's all footing the bill in these r rooms.
It's all of us. They don't deserve my healthcare dollars.

Speaker 2 (01:13:27):
Sorry, that's the reason why you need an actual system.

Speaker 3 (01:13:31):
That works system these people to have citizenship.

Speaker 1 (01:13:35):
And I say no because a million But exactly this.

Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
Is the fundamental question strength of our country. They they
are liberty people like these people the Statue of liberty.
Quote by the way, again, by the way, the American
people agree with me.

Speaker 4 (01:13:57):
Ask them.

Speaker 2 (01:13:57):
Even at the even at the peak of anti immigrant hysteria,
people still said that immigrants are a.

Speaker 4 (01:14:05):
Net benefits these people in together. Is there a limit,
yes to you know the numbers exactly?

Speaker 1 (01:14:12):
So what's coming?

Speaker 4 (01:14:12):
Of course do I know. I don't know what the
limit is.

Speaker 2 (01:14:15):
But I can tell you that we have the capacity
to absorb a large number of people into this country.
And if you have people out of the shadows, they're
not having their labor rights abused and violated, they're not
being undercut in terms of their wages.

Speaker 4 (01:14:29):
They're able to pay.

Speaker 2 (01:14:30):
And by the way, most undocumented immigrants at least until
now we're paying taxes. Now they're afraid that they're going
to be like swept up in a deportation rate because.

Speaker 3 (01:14:37):
Is it enough for the government services that they cannume.

Speaker 2 (01:14:40):
It is, yes, soccer again, go look at the studies.

Speaker 4 (01:14:44):
Don't just make stuff up. I'm not. I mean, it's true,
they can much more.

Speaker 1 (01:14:49):
Endless society.

Speaker 3 (01:14:52):
US studies to support many of these, there are also
endless numbers and.

Speaker 4 (01:14:56):
Studies that show just dismiss out of.

Speaker 3 (01:14:58):
I mean, same with you. No, I'm but this is
the frustration. This is again how we got here. If
the only option is mass citizenship, a lot of people
are going to say, fuck.

Speaker 4 (01:15:07):
It, then let's go with the Blackhawk helicopters because we're
just gonna and they get to.

Speaker 2 (01:15:12):
Vote at the absence of an alternative vision where you're saying,
you know what, the problem isn't the immigrant, it's the billionaire.
It's the people who are robbing you blind and rigging
the system and stealing your electricity and.

Speaker 4 (01:15:23):
Hiking up your electricity both.

Speaker 2 (01:15:26):
If you think that alternative vision, then yes you're right,
But then you do have a lot of large number
of people say the problem is you know, the Venezuelan
migrant who came in and they're you know, they're stealing
the housing or whatever, or they're eating the cats and
the dogs. Yes, they will be open to that message,
but it is not a correct message. And so if
you actually have a vision on the other side that

(01:15:46):
is compelling to people, that is the only way that
you fight back against this. That's why I say that
it is a center left failure. Yes, that led to
this by offering no other explanation and broadly caving to
the worldview of the Trumps. So that's how you end
up with Steven Miller and Trump and this truly fascist
assault on cities and states and in communities and lawless

(01:16:11):
chaos that is vastly more dangerous and more violent than
anything that I've seen from any undocumented I.

Speaker 3 (01:16:16):
Just think that it very much absolves much of the
far left who's forced every candidate to raise their hand
and say we should have health care for all illegals.

Speaker 4 (01:16:25):
That health care for everyone.

Speaker 2 (01:16:27):
I mean, that's so you think that the other thing
is soccer that No, that's the other thing is that
when you have a neoliberal system where yes, not everybody
has health care, that is also going to make people
much more receptive to like, see that person who's showing
up in the emergency room.

Speaker 4 (01:16:43):
They're getting healthcare.

Speaker 2 (01:16:44):
And you're not, which is why I yeah, but that's
why I support universal health care. That's why I support
higher wages. That's why I support union rights, That's why
I support universal pre K, That's why I support affordable daycare.
So that people don't feel this sense of we're all
you know, it's every man for himself and we're all
scrapping against each other.

Speaker 4 (01:17:05):
Where people are doing fine and have.

Speaker 2 (01:17:08):
The right to those resources themselves, then they are much
more much less likely to find the message of immigrant
scapegoating to be appealing.

Speaker 3 (01:17:16):
Again, there is not a single social welfare state in
the world that exists with a massive open border in
illegalized population. All of the welfare systems that you're describing
have very tight borders. Norway, Scandinavia, Denmark they have natural
and massive assimilation assimilative programs for example, and den I mean,
if that's the type of society you want, fine, Like

(01:17:36):
in Denmark they literally ban you, I believe as children
from wearing a hijab because they're like, hey, that's not
who you are. If you're gonna come here and you're
gonna get our services and you're gonna be a citizen,
then that's going to come with a huge number of responsibilities.
I don't think most people want to sign up for that.
And so we live in a world of finite resources.
You can't just have a system where everybody gets healthcare,
including vast numbers of illegals like this is again I

(01:17:58):
think that this message is deep damaging. I see the
grand Platners of the world going for it. Maybe it'll
work in main I have no idea, but at the
end of the day, the rubber will meet the road
with the actual proposal. And if you're just going to
mass legalize and grant mass numbers of social services to people,
I mean, first of all, I mean in an un
ironic way, somebody does have to pay for it, like

(01:18:19):
for real, it can't just be quote tax billionaires or whatever,
because I mean, with the way that our taxation structure works,
it will have to ultimately come from some middle, upper
middle class and others like it quite.

Speaker 4 (01:18:31):
Literally could actually tax the risk.

Speaker 1 (01:18:33):
It's not gonna happen in oursel. But that's under sixty
people in the United states, And what's the.

Speaker 2 (01:18:37):
Practicality of what is wildly Listen, you're in terms of
the politics is difficult, of course, of course, But is
it wildly pop of course yes, if you.

Speaker 4 (01:18:46):
Ask people, should we cut that offense?

Speaker 2 (01:18:48):
Yeah, money, that's free money, that's cutting the defense department budget.
And then yes, we just had a massive tax cut
for the rich. Just give that back as a starter.
You know, you can't tell me that every other develop
nation around the world can afford universal healthcare and we can't.

Speaker 4 (01:19:05):
For some reason.

Speaker 1 (01:19:05):
We absolutely can, right we can? Could I say?

Speaker 2 (01:19:08):
My vision for that society, the way that things are
distributed is so wildly unequal. Even if we just did
a little bit, we would be in such a better place.
So in any case, to get back to the core
of this thing, I mean, I think there is Listen,
do I know what the political fallout will be?

Speaker 4 (01:19:28):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:19:28):
But the thing that scares me the most is you
think that they believe this is political win. I think
they don't care because I think they feel like they
are really going They are going for it right now,
like they are going for labeling Democrats as domestic terrorists,
crushing descent, surveiling social media there's a story about how
they're putting together social media surveillance team using palenteer, you know,

(01:19:50):
scaring any sort of like comedian and installing Barry Weiss's
editor in chief at CBS.

Speaker 4 (01:19:55):
I mean they are going for it.

Speaker 2 (01:19:57):
And so in a sense like obvious, what's happening with
ice in these cities and with federal agents in these cities.

Speaker 4 (01:20:03):
Obviously that is about.

Speaker 2 (01:20:04):
Immigration, but I also don't think it is mostly about
Is it is about more than immigration as well? I
don't because it's it really is a sort of all
out assault on our rights, on our First Amendment rights,
on our ability to protest, freedom of association, freedom from
unreasonable searchencies. You're like, all of those things are under
attack right now, and it's by design.

Speaker 3 (01:20:25):
I know the producers are going, We're going to be
mad because I'm dragging this on. But I think this
is the fundamental sect question of our day. If you
were the left, how are you going to handle if
the Democrats come in power? Wouldn't you do the same thing?

Speaker 1 (01:20:36):
At this point?

Speaker 4 (01:20:37):
What do you mean?

Speaker 3 (01:20:38):
So, I mean what I send in the National Guards? No,
I mean, well, not not that, but I mean, isn't
Stephen Miller going to be prosecuted.

Speaker 4 (01:20:44):
Well he should be.

Speaker 1 (01:20:45):
But see this is my point.

Speaker 4 (01:20:46):
He's for them.

Speaker 3 (01:20:47):
But yeah, but now we're feeding into the same culture
of of this is now the same, it's going to
be the same law fare.

Speaker 2 (01:20:54):
If you are living people's rights, yeah, and you are
breaking the law.

Speaker 4 (01:20:58):
Do I think you should go to people how.

Speaker 1 (01:21:00):
They saw it on the truck?

Speaker 3 (01:21:01):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:21:01):
Is you have January sixth prisoners or all?

Speaker 3 (01:21:03):
Listen, I'm not I'm representing a worldview where you have
liberal institutions which are assaulting us. You're trying to plug
our children full of hormones. You are have an all
out takeover our institutions. You flooded our country with ten
to fifteen million illegals. So fuck it, let's go for it.
I mean, isn't that what the next democratic administration? Aren't
you going to do the exact same thing.

Speaker 1 (01:21:23):
That's that's my view. Trump, JD and all of them,
all of their staff. Good luck.

Speaker 3 (01:21:28):
You're going to be buried in the legal paperwork and
probably much more because the Libs are actually good at it.
You know you're going to if you're a red state,
you're probably gonna have your shit cut, right, this new
popularization of I think so.

Speaker 2 (01:21:38):
I mean, I mean, if they haven't gets elected, for sure,
I wish that I had the faith that you do
that Democrats are going to have the backbone to actually
lock up the criminals that exist in this administration. I mean,
these people who are pulling naked children onto their beds
and being zipped. Yes, I think they should be in
the present works on the republic.

Speaker 1 (01:21:59):
Let rape this into the country. You should be elite.
That's the same.

Speaker 2 (01:22:03):
Image had the Biden administration procedure. You may not have
liked it, but it was done. But these were legal
provisions that allowed undocummars. Most many of the immigrants who
came in were through Temporary Protective Stact and.

Speaker 1 (01:22:20):
Come up with any way.

Speaker 2 (01:22:22):
People have a right to apply for asylum that is
consistent with the law.

Speaker 4 (01:22:27):
You do not have a right to.

Speaker 2 (01:22:29):
Violate Americans, let alone immigrants, but Americans do process rights.
You do not have a right to pull children with
no warrn out of their beds in the middle of
the night and zip tied them together and throw them
in your hall band. You do not have a right
to hold American citizens three days, no lawyer, no warrant,
no phone call, no nothing.

Speaker 4 (01:22:46):
You do not have a right.

Speaker 2 (01:22:47):
I mean many of the like you know, some of
the things that happen under Doge continue to have been
deemed illegal.

Speaker 4 (01:22:53):
So yes, where.

Speaker 2 (01:22:54):
Criminal acts occurred, there should absolutely be accountability. There should
absolutely be accountability. And I'm not going to buy this,
like what about ism? Oh well, the you know Democrats
did thing Republicans didn't like. Yes, if they were criminal, yes,
prosecute fine prosecuting.

Speaker 1 (01:23:08):
Well, you could come up with.

Speaker 3 (01:23:08):
Look, I mean, isn't that one of the lessons this
admin is that the government company?

Speaker 4 (01:23:11):
Will you agree?

Speaker 2 (01:23:12):
But let me ask you this, Do you really think
there was anything that was equivalent two black Hawk helicopters
raiding an apartment building in the middle of the night
and pulling out people. And I mean just the like
lawlessness of this is a disagreement.

Speaker 3 (01:23:27):
I think that their border was actually just as lawless.
They impeached my orcis over it. It was a genuine
criminal act at a political level where I mean, look,
I could hit it back.

Speaker 1 (01:23:36):
Kavanaugh stops are legal now unto the Supreme Court. I
don't agree with it, but it is.

Speaker 3 (01:23:40):
Kavanaugh stop means that you can briefly detain a US
citizen for whatever period of Yeah, but it's legal. It's
under the US Supreme Court. So is it illegal, Well,
it was on the show. You can say it's an ad.

Speaker 6 (01:23:50):
It was.

Speaker 4 (01:23:50):
I mean it was on the Shadow Dog.

Speaker 2 (01:23:52):
It hasn't officially been ruled on the merits, but yes,
it allowed them to proceed with overt racial profiling, which
is part of autos.

Speaker 1 (01:23:58):
Right, that's my point.

Speaker 3 (01:23:59):
And so they don't come up with a justification for anything, right,
oh's all asylum.

Speaker 1 (01:24:03):
It's like, well, you know, I don't.

Speaker 4 (01:24:04):
Say not really.

Speaker 3 (01:24:05):
I'm only pointing out though that if that is going
to be the posture of the Democratic base and probably
the next Democratic administration, then it is kind of a
mirror image of each other.

Speaker 1 (01:24:16):
And so for them, I mean, they're not dumb. They
can see all of this in their mind. It was
go time anyways.

Speaker 3 (01:24:21):
But if you're a Democrat, why wouldn't you now believe
the same thing. So it seems to me like an
analyst race to the bottle, Like if Gavin Newsom gets elected,
wouldn't you deny funding to Texas?

Speaker 4 (01:24:29):
And a hurricane you came out? I think you will
see this society.

Speaker 2 (01:24:33):
I totally disagree with this, as much as I despise
the Trump regime, as much as I despise Stephen Miller,
as much as I disagree with people individual people who
voted for Trump this time around. I want them to
have health care. I want them to have preschool. No,
I want them to have you know, And this is
the view of the left broadly, right.

Speaker 4 (01:24:54):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:24:55):
Now do I see, like you know, it being an issue. Yes,
Steven Miller should be locked that sort of stuff. Yes,
the we're going to go to war with Texas and
deny people healthcare? No, I don't. I don't see that
at all. I thoroughly reject that. I think that is
anathema to any sort of politics that I would believe
in whatsoever.

Speaker 4 (01:25:13):
And that is genuinely a race to the bottom, now,
you know is No, I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:25:17):
Question your sincerity at all. I mean, listen, I don't
disagree with half of this stuff. But the level of
vindictiveness I'm watching bubble about truth and reconciliation post Trump,
it almost makes me understand the Trump behavior more because
for them, they're like, if this, if we were already here,
they have to go because to them.

Speaker 2 (01:25:35):
I think it's like ac I think, I genuinely think
that is projection of like the way that this administration
operates on you know, the Democratic base and Democratic lawmakers.

Speaker 4 (01:25:46):
And I mean, so you think I like that to
their bible.

Speaker 2 (01:25:50):
They didn't even get their acts together to charge Trump
with a coup in time for the thing to go
to court. Right, that's who we're talking about here.

Speaker 1 (01:25:58):
Yeah, but aren't you mad about that? They wanted him
to be prosecuted.

Speaker 4 (01:26:03):
Yes, and he should have been, But that's a different thing.

Speaker 2 (01:26:08):
That Texas shouldn't get hurricane funding or they should, you know,
the people of Oklahoma or wherever should be like screwed
and you know, uh, and there should be retribution against
them and their funding pulled, which is things that this
administration has done. Because for example, Janet Mills and Maine
said something he didn't like about trans gender kids and sports.

Speaker 4 (01:26:26):
No, I see, I do.

Speaker 2 (01:26:27):
I can't say I see zero appetite for that. But
that is not a widely held view whatsoever. And like
I said, it's anathema to any sort of actual left
kind of apology.

Speaker 3 (01:26:36):
I agree, but you're talking about the left and not
the Democrats, because see, I don't know I think people
are mad, and I see with the base with Gavin,
the way that people are quote fighting back. I think
a lot of vindictiveness is coming back. I mean, look, Trump,
for all of his faults, he broke the glass on
a lot of long standing norms in politics. I still
think this is the central question because it informs so

(01:26:57):
much of the way that our current government is behaving.
To them, they thought that the glass was broken in
under Biden, where yes, they incompetently indicted Trump or whatever,
but they still indicted Trump.

Speaker 1 (01:27:06):
To them, that's like Banana republic shit. So they're like,
if we're.

Speaker 3 (01:27:09):
Going to open the door, then let's let's be Banana Republic, right,
And so that is all starting to that's all.

Speaker 1 (01:27:14):
Starting to become the feedback.

Speaker 4 (01:27:15):
I'm sure I'm not even justifying, but I just actual reality.

Speaker 2 (01:27:19):
Like Trump tried to cool the government she should have
been in for they should have been banned from running
for election again. And so to equate that with like
I didn't like Biden's asylum policy, we.

Speaker 3 (01:27:29):
Are minimizing it because you don't disagree with the policy, right,
I could flip it around. I mean, look, at the
end of the day, like I oppose the impeachment or
whatever of Donald Trump. I said, you should leave it
up to the democratic process, And I mean it's more
of an indictment of the Democrats for being unable to
beat him in the election. It's just a question to
me about where, once things are here, how can it

(01:27:51):
possibly ever go back to normal, because that's kind of
what you're saying, don't I don't know if it can. Well,
that's part of the reason I feel so desponded. Once
we are not going back to the days of Biden,
like red state, blue state. I'm not saying we're gonna
have a civil war, but we're definitely gonna have a
lot more like authoritarian power in the federal government.

Speaker 2 (01:28:09):
I mean, we're already at when you're talking about Trump
trying to send Texas National Guard into California, Oregon, Chicago.
I mean, the only reason is that's not a civil
war is because the other side doesn't fight back. Yeah,
that's how close to the edge we are.

Speaker 4 (01:28:21):
That's where we are, right, So.

Speaker 3 (01:28:23):
Why wouldn't that That's what I mean is in the
logical conclusion, it's like, oh, well, people are going to
start fighting back.

Speaker 1 (01:28:27):
I'm like, that's that scares the shit out of me.
That's part of what I'm afraid of with.

Speaker 3 (01:28:31):
All of this, because everything is just getting all the
way up and I don't I don't possibly see an escape.
Like if Steven Miller thinks he's going to get indiceted
under a future administration, I mean, do you even want
there to be a future administration? Now?

Speaker 2 (01:28:44):
But that really was that's already what they're going I mean,
I think that's already what they're going for. And that's
why I look at the you know, I mean, I
hope there's something approaching, free and fair elections, et cetera.
But I have no confidence that these people have any
intention of giving up power. Yeah, Like, there's there's no
reason why we should think that. We've already had Trump
losing and trying to not give up power, so we
have a track record.

Speaker 1 (01:29:05):
I could see how you would get there. I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:29:07):
I'm not there just because I mean, at the end
of the day did leave right, And most of it
was a larp Like ninety eight That's another thing that
people vastly underestimate. Ninety eight percent of this is quote LARPing,
despite the fact that, look, that's curious ramifications obviously for
norms and all of that, et cetera. But I do
think we should stick with this kind of debate and
story because it's it's.

Speaker 1 (01:29:27):
All I've been thinking about.

Speaker 3 (01:29:28):
I go, once we're here, can you possibly come back?
I actually don't know, Like, can we come back from
a world of like blue on red warfare? Like literally
in terms of states and state power and indicting your
other political opponents, you can everyone get debate endlessly about
who started it or whatever. Every side is going to
see theirs as entirely legitimate, even if you disagree. And

(01:29:50):
it's honestly what scares me the most about where we are.

Speaker 2 (01:29:52):
Like with warm and managed to put the pieces back together.

Speaker 1 (01:29:55):
It's a long time, a lot.

Speaker 4 (01:29:56):
Of long time.

Speaker 1 (01:29:57):
Okay, so it's not.

Speaker 6 (01:29:58):
It was.

Speaker 3 (01:29:59):
The more you read about that, the more you should
be afraid of ever possibly getting there in the first place.

Speaker 1 (01:30:04):
Okay, should we get to the economy? Are we done?

Speaker 4 (01:30:06):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:30:06):
All right?

Speaker 4 (01:30:07):
Well, to be continued

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