July 23, 2025 • 51 mins
Ryan and Emily discuss GOP shuts down House to dodge Epstein vote, former inmate rips Epstein coverup, PodSave bros fire back at Hunter Biden.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 4 (00:33):
Happy Wednesday, Welcome to Breaking Points yep with Ryan and
Emily's right. Emily, by the way, programming note, will be
in the new media chair at the White House later today.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Asking Carolyn Levitt.
Speaker 5 (00:46):
Something something we don't want to give anything away.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I've got an idea.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
So my paperback came out yesterday. You should ask Caroline
if she has read the Squad. I say, like, by
the way, it came out and paperback yesterday, so if
you've been waiting to get the cheaper version.
Speaker 6 (01:00):
So this is a good idea for the question itself.
Speaker 5 (01:02):
I can say Amazon dot Com paperback out today whatever,
nineteen ninety nine, however, which it costs.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Yeah, tell if she wants to understand how APAC operates
in Washington, this would be the book for her.
Speaker 5 (01:13):
I think they are curious these days.
Speaker 6 (01:16):
They could learn, right, I have a gift for you.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
What you got?
Speaker 6 (01:19):
All right? So you were gone last week, so I
couldn't give it to you. But look at that.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
This is a teenage mutant ninja turtle.
Speaker 6 (01:28):
It's a Turtle Boy shirt.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Ride the Turtle from Turtle Boy.
Speaker 6 (01:32):
That's from the Turtle Boy merch shop.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
Well, I went to University of Maryland and there slogans
fear the turtle.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
That's right, So there we go.
Speaker 6 (01:40):
It works other way.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
You could be walking around the like Rehoboth we had.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
We had a bunch of people angry about that interview.
Oh I saw because yeah, he's I mean, he's kind
of crazy.
Speaker 6 (01:49):
He's a controversial man.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yes, he's a controversial man.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
But now you can it's the craziness, and craziness is
putting it lightly. Perhaps that allows him to be so
dogged in some of these cases. Does not mean I
endorse everything the man has done or will do.
Speaker 5 (02:03):
Nor should you have to endorse everything that he has
done or will do in order to interview him on
a really important case. And anyway, basically how this all
happened is that I was on his website and I
noticed he had a merch shop, and I was.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Like, oh, this is amazing, Thank.
Speaker 6 (02:17):
You for this. It's pretty funny.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
It's like there's there's something there amazing. Anyway that my
pleasure much appreciated.
Speaker 6 (02:26):
Yes, now to the news.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
I came in to hawk merch and instead I'm leaving
with merch.
Speaker 6 (02:30):
But it was an exchange trade. I mean, there you go.
This is what work.
Speaker 5 (02:34):
Could you ask for out now in paperback. It's so
light you can take it to the beach.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
You really can.
Speaker 6 (02:39):
Everyone know that you're smart, aeradite.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
There's perfect, perfect, I got it.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
So we're going to be talking about the latest attempt
by Donald Trump to distract from Jeffrey Epstein. This time
he's accusing Obama of high treason. The man is off
his game. He even said to the fake news media,
you need to focus on this instead of the other
thing he did. He's just saying it out loud. The
guy has really lost his touch. We're going to talk
(03:05):
about the the the Democratic autopsy is being conducted among
the Podsave Bros And Hunter Biden.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
They're they're working their stuff out.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
You're gonna you're gonna enjoy this one. Microsoft workers told
their bosses yesterday that they are no longer going to
work on Israeli tech Microsoft supplies, as drop site has
reported in the past, a lot of the tech for
their their AI, their their cloud computing, their war machine,
and now their workers are standing up and saying we're
(03:36):
not We're not We're not doing We're not doing that.
Not all workers at Microsoft, of course, but a substantial
chunk of them.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
We'll talk about that.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
We'll also talk about the ongoing siege uh the number
of people that continued to die of starvation as well
as getting killed at aid distribution sites. I'm going to
have a little look back in the UH at a
piece about the nineteen nineties when a certain Prime Minister
of Israel, Benjamin who at the time he's been in
(04:06):
office that long, not continuously, but that long, was alleged
to have blackmailed Bill Clinton over the Monica Lewinsky tapes.
Ye turns out there's a lot to it so you're
gonna want to stick around for that.
Speaker 6 (04:17):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
We're also going to have an inmate who served basically
alongside Jeffrey Epstein, and when they removed Epstein's cellmate after
he died, he went to Martin Gotdisfeldt's cell So we're
going to talk to Martin Goddess about what he knows
about that correction center, what he heard from Epstein's cellmate.
(04:41):
Because missing in the reporting this controversy is the voices
of the people who were actually in the building, because
there were plenty of people in there.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
So let's talk to some of them. And then the
white the wife of.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
The guy who made the ice block app is going
to join us as well.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
She somehow thought that she and't be fired by the
Department Justice for this.
Speaker 6 (05:01):
Yeah, it seemed unlikely.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
We're gonna ask her.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
We're gonna say, hey, cool, app as far as I'm concerned,
But you thought that that was going to be okay,
didn't seem like that would fly anyway.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Can't wait to hear from her.
Speaker 6 (05:14):
A lot to get into.
Speaker 5 (05:15):
Let's start in the Oval office yesterday where Donald Trump,
to the point Ryan just made, did kind of say
the quiet part aloud.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Which is although let's start with massy, right with.
Speaker 6 (05:23):
The massy Yeah.
Speaker 5 (05:25):
Well, so basically here's what's happening. Let's break it down
this way. There were efforts among Democrats, as we've covered
here to end, among Thomas Massey, Republican, a couple other
Republicans to get a vote done before August recess on
the Epstein files. Then Donald Trump yesterday also waited on
the future of the Epstein file. So we can start
(05:47):
here with a two. This is Thomas Massey weighing in.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
On Mike Johnson.
Speaker 5 (05:54):
But House Speaker Mike Johnson shut down the floor basically
yesterday and said, we are not we are not going
to take lessons on transparency from the Democrats who covered
up for Joe Biden's health crisis.
Speaker 6 (06:09):
That was the line, Let's roll the club.
Speaker 7 (06:11):
The House Rules resolution sets a good standard and requires
all credible evidence to be released. And that's exactly where
the White House is. As I've said many times over
the lass. As I've said many times, there's no daylight
between the White House and the House. You have to
allow the legislation to write and you also have to
allow the administration the space to do what it is doing.
(06:32):
The President has said clearly, and he has now ordered
his DOJ to do what it is we've all needed
DOJ to do for years now, and that is to
get everything released.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
So they're in the process of that.
Speaker 7 (06:42):
There's no purpose for Congress to push an administration to
do something that they're already doing, and so this is
for political games. I'm not going to address anybody individually,
but I'll tell you that some here are much more
frustrated than others. There's a small, small, tiny handful, but
one in particular who's given me lots of consternation.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
I don't understand. I don't understand Thomas Massey's motivation. I
really don't. I don't know how his mind works. I
don't know what he's thinking.
Speaker 7 (07:06):
Thomas Massey could have brought his discharge petition anytime over
the last four and a half years, over the last four.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Years of bid administration.
Speaker 7 (07:12):
He could have done that at any time, and now
he's clamoring as if there's some sort of timeline on it.
It's interesting to me that he chose the election of
President Trump to bring this, to team up with the
Democrats and bring this discharge petition.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
So do I have some concern about that.
Speaker 5 (07:26):
I do, okay, But the timeline is that Attorney General
Pam Bond he closed the case a couple of weeks ago.
That's basically why this has resurfaced. Ryan, you made this
point about Thomas Massey while we were watching the clip.
Speaker 6 (07:39):
He posted a pretty hot Telly.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
We can add this in post.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
He responded, Speaker Johnson, why are you running cover for
an underage sex trafficking ring and pretending this is a
part is an issue? MAGA voted for this, and in fact,
Johnson's own post on x about this has a community
note saying over half of the sponsors of Hrs five
to eighty one, which he is blocking, which he is
(08:05):
shutting down the House so that there won't be vote
on it, and this is nasty. Kana has half over
half of the co sponsors are Republicans, so the effort
to paint this as like a democratic thing kind of
falls falls flat in the face of that. And yes,
to your point, the reason that there's movement now in
(08:26):
the White House is because of the public pressure. And separately,
if it's the case that they're already doing the thing,
then it wouldn't be offensive to push them to just
do it.
Speaker 5 (08:37):
Well, yeah, absolutely, And again, the only reason that this
has now become the news cycle every single day is
because Pambondi came out and said no, further disclosures are
warranted in the case, and then Trump has doubled down
and tripled down on that point.
Speaker 6 (08:53):
So let's actually get to this.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
Clearly, they're shutting down the House of Representatives early so
that they don't have to vote on this.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
It's incredible reading from playbook right now, Johnson is a
journey house business. This afternoon, the last votes are scheduled
for three PM and canceling for their action ahead of
August recess in order to question an effort to force
a floor vote that would hasten the release of the
Epstein files. Republicans want to get back to their districts
because they think that's this is how they're spinning it.
(09:23):
But also I think they truly believe this an important
time for them to be able to.
Speaker 6 (09:27):
Go out and talk about the big, beautiful.
Speaker 5 (09:28):
Bill and sell it in their districts because obviously it's
not polled with great popularity since its passage, so they're
really eager a not to have to take their Epstein
vote and b to get out of town and talk
to people. Now, I think some Republicans actually would like
to take the vote so that they don't get it's
a talking point when they're back during August recess. And
(09:51):
I asked a bunch of House Republicans last week about this,
and they told me, Yeah, they do expect to hear
from people in their district about it. So it's very
clear that they know they're going to get these questions and.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Why not just vote?
Speaker 4 (10:01):
It's not as if it's not as if the Senate's
going to pass it tomorrow, And so I don't even
understand why Johnson even needs to go to the mat Like,
so he put up his own resolution that's pretty toothless
yes in exchange for this one to say, like, don't
vote on this on this one that has like actual teeth,
(10:22):
vote vote for this one instead, and then we won't
vote on that one.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Okay, but he did that.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
What's the difference though, because it doesn't have teeth. If
it doesn't pass the Senate, it.
Speaker 6 (10:30):
Is a symbolic vote either way.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
So what are you doing?
Speaker 4 (10:33):
Yeah, like you you can still be cynical and we.
Speaker 6 (10:37):
Know what they're doing. This is the first clip.
Speaker 5 (10:39):
Let's because Donald Trump basically clearly this is a one.
Speaker 6 (10:43):
Let's roll Trump yesterday in the White House.
Speaker 8 (10:45):
I didn't know that they were going to do it.
I don't really follow that too much.
Speaker 9 (10:48):
It's it's a sort of a witch hunt, just a
continuation of the witch hunt. The witch hunt that you
should be talking about is they caught President Obama absolutely cold.
They tried to rig the election. Then they got caught,
and there should be very severe consequences for that. Barack
Hussein Obama is the ringleader. Hillary Clinton was right there
(11:12):
with him, and so was Sleepy Joe Biden, and so
with the rest of them, call me Clapper, the whole group.
And they tried to rig an election, and they got caught.
And then they did rig the election in twenty twenty.
And then because I knew I won that election by
a lot, I did it a third time and I
won in a landslide. Every swing state won the popular
about Look, he's guilty. It is not a question, you know.
(11:34):
I like to say, let's give it time.
Speaker 8 (11:38):
It's there.
Speaker 9 (11:38):
He's guilty. This was treason. This was every word you
can think of. They tried to steal the election. And
we have all of the documents, and from what Tolsey
told me, she's got thousands of additional documents coming. So
President Obama it was his concept, his idea, but he
(12:02):
also got it from Crooked Hillary Clinton.
Speaker 8 (12:04):
Crooked is a three dollars bill. Now it looks like Adam.
Speaker 9 (12:07):
Schiff really did a bad thing.
Speaker 8 (12:12):
They have him. Now let's see what happens.
Speaker 9 (12:15):
It's not up to me. It's not up to I
stay out of it purposely. But it's mortgage loan fraud.
Speaker 8 (12:21):
It's a big deal.
Speaker 9 (12:22):
He defrauded banks and insurance companies in the federal government.
Speaker 5 (12:28):
Okay, so right, you may disagree with me on this.
Speaker 6 (12:31):
I think two.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
Things are true in this case. It's not just that
two things can be true. I think two things are
true that the documents that are being released from Trump's
intelligence community, so from Tulca Gabbard and then John Ratcliffe
a couple of weeks back, are important, consequential, significant, scandalous,
(12:53):
and they are using it to distract very clearly from
Trump's bungling and Pavoni's bungling, both of them of the
Epstein case, the political fallout, because you see Trump put
it that way saying directly, you should be focused on
this witch hunt against me, not the witch hunt towards
me right now on Epstein, he basically just hunt.
Speaker 6 (13:16):
Yeah, bro, Yes, he's saying that.
Speaker 5 (13:19):
Yes, and so I was much worse than a witch Yeah,
that's for sure. But this is the timing of the
Gabbard document dump is very convenient for Donald Trump, obviously
because it sucks oxygen away from the Epstein story.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
And also for Gabbard, who had been in the doghouse,
and then yesterday at the White House, Trump says she's
the best one in the room right now, something like,
you know, real pat on the head for Gabbard, you know,
who's kind of now back in the good graces. And
tell me if I'm so just for people that aren't
following exactly what the revelations are here essentially, and you correct.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Me if I'm getting the narrative wrong here.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
Essentially, throughout the twenty sixteen election, the intelligence community, according
to these documents, assessed that Russia was not actually trying
to hack into election systems. That's actually contradicted by what
Reality Winner leaked. Because the intelligence community believed that they
try to get into North Carolina and some other election
(14:24):
systems with some with these fishing expeditions that they found
they didn't, they didn't.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
They don't know what they were going to do when
they're in.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
There, because like oftentimes, these foreign actors or hackers will
just get in and sometimes steal stuff just just to
hang out there in case they want to do something later.
In any event, Let's say I see as saying they're
not trying to change the votes or do anything like
cyber hacking around the election.
Speaker 5 (14:47):
Well, and we do have emails of them saying that,
saying that was their belief at the time.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yeah, right, And there's no evidence they did.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
There's that, there's that reality winner evidence that they tried.
Speaker 5 (14:58):
And these documents are act after the election. So this
is December of so Toussy Gabbertt on Friday dumped a
bunch of documents and put them together sort of in
this narrative framing to show how Barack Obama, this is
the contention, Barack Obama directed the intelligence community to first
(15:21):
enhance its interpretation of what happened between Russia and Trump.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
Right, And so it's a December ninth meeting which includes Clapper, Brannon,
Susan Rice, John Kerry, the red of Lynch, Andrew McCabe,
and others December ninth, twenty sixteen with Obama. Then they
say there's an email to the IC leaders asking them
to create a new assessment quote per the President's request.
And that's from a Clapper's executive assistant that details the quote,
(15:51):
tools Moscow used and actions it took to influence the
twenty sixteen election unquote. Now here's where what Democrats are
doing is dirty. So they're acknowledging that there's no attempt
to kind of hack the election. What they're doing is
they're redefining what hack means and what cyber means. Tools
(16:15):
Moscow use, and actions it took to influence a twenty
sixteen election. What they will eventually find is like a
couple hundred thousand dollars worth of Facebook ads.
Speaker 6 (16:23):
It means yeah, yeah, And.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
They will and like attempts to like organize Black Lives
Matter rallies that like three people showed up for.
Speaker 5 (16:30):
Basically these ham fisted attempts. You could go back and
read the twenty seventeen Senate report. These hilariously ham fisted
attempts to like stoke the anger of boomers over trans
issues BLM.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Right and all that, And so what Democrats would say,
if they had a legal defense here, they'd say, those
are cyber attempts, right, that's what they're So they're changing, right,
that is cyber, totally cyber. But they're playing with your
understanding of the word cyber.
Speaker 6 (16:58):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
The problem for Trump here is that's dirty.
Speaker 6 (17:03):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
But politics is dirty. Is that illegal?
Speaker 8 (17:08):
Now?
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Is it an assault on the dignity of our democracy?
Yes it is? Is it gross? Is it awful? Yes,
it's all those things. It's also pretty standard politics. So
that that's my view at least I think. And I
was critical of them the entire time because the other
(17:29):
reason that they wanted to focus on Russia, it's not
just to undermine Trump, but was to also undermine the
Bernie wing of the Democratic Party and get in the
way of an actual audit of why did we lose.
Speaker 6 (17:43):
They were using some of the same language to.
Speaker 5 (17:45):
Talk about Bernie Sanders and actually.
Speaker 6 (17:47):
Tulsi Gabbard at the time.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
They were saying Russia boosted Bernie and stuff like that.
Speaker 5 (17:51):
Yeah, And they were using this it's like wink wink,
nod nod language about cyber infrastructure and they knew what
people thought they meant.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
By honeymoon in the so Union. That used to point out, yes, which.
Speaker 6 (18:02):
Was true, Yeah, totally true.
Speaker 5 (18:04):
Also weird, but anyway, they had.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
A sister city in the Soviet Union.
Speaker 5 (18:11):
Still doesn't explain the honeymoon, but the story is equally entertaining,
So burning man.
Speaker 6 (18:20):
Anyway, So to.
Speaker 5 (18:22):
Your point, dirty dirty stuff right now also absolutely being
used as a shield to suck oxygen out of the
Epstein story. And Donald Trump basically made that explicit yesterday
by saying, focus over here, look away from that, look
at this, and that's the that's the plan right now.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
To finish this.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
Gabbard's document says, after months of investigation in the matter,
the facts revealed. This new assessmant was based on information
that was known by those involved to be manufactured I
either steeal dossier or deemed as not credible. Yes, and no,
like is it who said it was not credible? Like
there was some intel assessments said that the Steele dossier
(19:06):
wasn't credible. There were, But then there's lots of like
you know, feverish lunatics in the IC who are like, no,
we think this, there might be something here we're going
to investigate, right, and that's what the IC does anyway.
Speaker 5 (19:20):
So the new documents revealed that Obama directed this, right,
So there's there's an email saying part of the president
from Clapper Clopper's team is this.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Part of the president of the president's requests.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
We're basically coming up with a new intelligence report other
than this one that downplays the confidence that we have
that Russia influence.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
But your point is exactly right.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
You can you can weigh on your own how much
how important you think these documents are, but clearly they're
an attempt to distract from what's going on with Epstein.
And the problem I think for Republicans here is that,
you know, I've spent the last almost decade watching Republicans
organize most of their's kind of subcul politics around pedophilia
(20:02):
and the idea that there are pedophiles everywhere and that
there are these organized sex trafficking rings that are being
operated by Democrats and Podesta and Clinton, and you know,
the entire Q phenomenon is heavily organized around these sex
trafficking rings.
Speaker 5 (20:16):
And it was more maga than the gop apparatus subculture, which.
Speaker 6 (20:23):
With Trump, yes, right, So.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
This whole thing that MAGA used to get people worked
up over the last seven eight years, that there are
these hidden sex trafficking rings run by elites is not
going to just be brushed aside because it turns out
that Trump was heavily involved in it. And they're not
(20:46):
going to look away just because there's some new Russiagate documents. No,
it's pretty funny that we're going to be using Russiagate.
Both parties will use Russiagate as a distraction from other
things for the rest of our lives.
Speaker 5 (20:58):
But you know, it's actually I was thinking about this yesterday.
It's so depressing because both stories speak fundamentally to the
same thing, believe it or not, which is that in
the shadows of republican governments lowercase, are republican government democracy,
however you want to describe it, are these very undemocratic,
unaccountable powers operating the shadows that you have no idea
(21:22):
about until ten, twenty thirty, forty years later. We're still
waiting on JFK documents right now because there's just no
accountability in the intelligence community. So they're and yet they're
exerting so much control over information and policy and all
of that. So in some way they're the same story,
(21:43):
like on that basic fundamental level, which is really depressing.
Let's get to this video of to the point Ryan
made about this not going away. Here is Ways and
Means Committee Chairman Jason Smith getting asked by Casey Hunt
about subpoena power. Would you ever use subpoena power to
try to find out more information about Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 10 (22:02):
Well, you may use subpoena powers at any point. That
is not a common thing that I have utilized within
the Ways and Means Committee.
Speaker 8 (22:12):
But if I felt like that it was a.
Speaker 10 (22:14):
Priority for Americans, then of course. But like I said,
this has not been something that's been a driving force.
Speaker 6 (22:22):
But you did use subpoena power with Hunter Biden exactly.
Speaker 10 (22:29):
We have the authority to use it, but that is
the only time that I have used it. Epstein is
not the priority of everyday American who's working nine to five,
just trying to put food on their table, closing their backs,
and gasoline in their cars. That is not their focus.
Speaker 5 (22:46):
And I don't think their focus with Hunter Biden either.
But this is another point where two things.
Speaker 6 (22:51):
Can be true.
Speaker 5 (22:52):
Hunter Biden important story Epstein important story, trying to put
food on your table important story, worry, and people can
care a lot more and rightfully so about putting food
on their table, feeding their families, and creating a.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
About child sex rings.
Speaker 6 (23:10):
You can care.
Speaker 5 (23:10):
Yeah, we do have room in our hearts and minds
for all of these things. And certainly people had room
for Hunter Biden when inflation was even worse than it
is right now.
Speaker 6 (23:22):
So that's not a good excuse.
Speaker 5 (23:24):
It does show, to the point you were making, Ryan,
how silly it is. They're not just voting on this,
and it seems as though they're not voting on it
because of the President not wanting to continue giving an
inch an inch an inch and fearing that they'll eventually
have to give up a mile and do even more
disclosures from the Department of Justice.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Right. Yeah, Trump clearly told Johnson don't vote on this.
Speaker 6 (23:45):
Voting would make it all easier. But Trump don't care,
even cynically. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
So the other thing they're going they're doing is bringing
gallinne Maxwell out. Yes, you can put up so they're
they're they're inviting her to testify Talus like, Hey, actually,
are you and your dad massad agents Massad says you're not,
so I don't know, so so Glaine Maxwell's attorney David
Marcus told cen end quote, I can confirm that we
(24:11):
are in discussions with the government and that Glaine will
always testify truthfully. We are grateful to President Trump for
his commitment to uncovering the truth in this case.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Unquote.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
So it is likely that we'll get to hear from
Glaine if she makes it to the to the hearing,
So that'll be now what like, Okay, if she says
she's not Massad, do we then just wrap this up?
Speaker 5 (24:37):
But that's the thing like this story, it's actually really
good for people in power in a sense like it
it's constructed in such a way, or it exists in
such a way that it's the sprawling network of different
threads that you can keep pulling on to distract from
never pulling on the big thread that unravels everything. And
so you can say, Okay, we're going to go talk
(24:58):
to Glaine, and you can run out the cop by
saying we're pulling on this thread and then taking a
really long time to pull it, and then you never
actually have to deal with everything.
Speaker 6 (25:06):
So it's actually not the worst.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
Scandal in the world to have to deal with from
like a purely public relations perspective, because it's so sprawling
that you can say that you'll never exhaust new angles
to say that you're looking into basically, and it's so
easy to run out the clock and delay. So, I mean,
that's probably what the next.
Speaker 6 (25:24):
Three years of the Trump administration looks like.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
So, in order to talk about more about like what
Epstein's life in prison was like and the end of
his life was like, let's bring in Martin Gottisfeld, a
former inmate from MCC. So one thing that's missing from
the coverage of the Jeffrey Epstein scandal is the voices
of people who served in the Metropolitan Correctional Center with
(25:51):
him or near the time that he did where he
met his end. And so to try to rectify that
now by journalists ACTVI was and former MCC inmate Martin Gottisfelder.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Marty, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 8 (26:08):
Well, problem Ryan, thank you for having me.
Speaker 4 (26:10):
So to set the stage here, can you talk about
the time that you served inside the MCC and how
that relates to Jeffrey Epstein's time there.
Speaker 8 (26:23):
Okay, So, I was there from November twenty sixteen to
early February twenty seventeen. Epstein died there about two and
a half years after I left. But at the time
I arrived at mcc Epstein had not yet been there.
El Chapo had not yet been held there, and the
facility was really kind of flying under the radar. People
really weren't aware of it, even though that attorneys and
(26:47):
prisoners had been active trying to reform the facility for
a long time. The facility was already dilapidated, the staff
were already out of control. Disaster was very clearly on
the horizon. Anyone could see it. But at the time
I was a contributor for a huff Post. You were
my editor there, and we published, you know, quite a
bit about the facility before it rose to national prominence,
(27:07):
and so we were really kind of like the early
warning system that you know, something was very likely to
happen here.
Speaker 5 (27:13):
All right.
Speaker 4 (27:13):
And so one of Epstein's to tell us about your
connection to one of Epstein's cellmates.
Speaker 8 (27:21):
So Epstein's, I understand, was Epstein's first cell mate, Nick
tartag Leone I was in the shoe on g Tier.
So that the shoes got like different palls. They're called
tears wherever you can have cells, right, and like G
tier in that shoe is like the most elite. It's
where the high profile guys tend to go. And so
(27:43):
I was already on G tier when tartag leone came in,
like was arrested fresh off the street. Had never seen
a jail cell from the inside before. He was a cop,
so he had seen lock up, but it had never
actually experienced it for himself. And then you know, I
understand that Nick was not Epstein's set at the time
of the death. I think that's important to underside here, right.
Speaker 4 (28:07):
Yeah, so what can you tell us about the way
that the cameras work?
Speaker 8 (28:11):
And I can tell you a lot.
Speaker 6 (28:13):
And we have this on a five.
Speaker 5 (28:14):
By the way, we can loop this. This is this
is the video that Pambondi released. And Martin, you've certainly
seen this by now. It's obviously, as Wired has said,
spice together, it's missing a second. And now people are
actually saying, right in three seconds, so three minutes.
Speaker 8 (28:31):
Three minutes, sorry, yeah, And they tried to explain away
one minute as like a nightly system was reboot. But
then there's apparently two other minutes. I should I should
add I've not double checked the digital forensics on this myself.
One thing, given my background, The government alleges I'm a
hacker with anonymous and that I uh single handly orchestrated
one of the largest cyber attacks the government ever seen.
(28:52):
So I just have to say, I've not double checked
the digital forensics on this. So I'm going off of
what what Wired brot. To my understanding, there's no meaningful contradiction,
like no one's come forward with an alternative theory or whatever.
But I'm not I can't personally vouch for you know,
there's digital forensics on the files, but I mean that's
a view from another tier. And so the tiers are
(29:15):
stacked like one on top of another, and they're in
different like arms shooting off from the main area in
the shoe, and you can see the officers station there
from visible from that tier. But obviously there's no cell doors, right,
and so this doesn't really make a lot of sense.
The video is not particularly useful for anything. And in
that shoe, just so you guys know, because this is
(29:36):
something that's that's not been covered, there's a camera in
every cell and on G tier there's a cam. There's
two cameras in every cell, and the problem is that
guys cover them up right, Like you're trying to use
the bathroom, there's a camera pointing at you, like, what
are you going to do? You cover the camera up, right,
And so pretty much at any given time in the
occupied cell, in that shoe, the camera's covered. Now that's
(29:59):
again it's policy, but the facility, I mean, what are
they going to do send a team to every single
cell every single day to uncover these cameras because the
guys that just cover them back up. Again. You also
though expect that they would have cameras in the hallway,
that we would have a camera that's facing Epstein's cell door, right,
and there's no explanation given for why that tape is
(30:20):
missing or you know, what happened to that camera, And
they're trying to say that the cameras weren't working, the
DVR system had problems with the hard drives. All this, Okay.
In the floor above that shoot is the ten South
Special Administrative Measures Unit. Okay, this is national security stuff.
This is like where the nine to eleven guys were held.
These are the guys who don't even get attorney client privilege,
(30:41):
even their attorney client meetings, their visits with their attorney
are listened in on by DOJ. Right, this is the
highest of high security, and they're saying that, you know,
the floor right below it that someone could use to
access the ten South unit had no working cameras or
the drive. You're bad. Epstein died a month two months
(31:03):
after l Chapo left. It's it strikes me as very
unlikely the cameras would be allowed to get into that position,
and very scary if in fact they were.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
So what what what's your sense of, you know, knowing
people who kind of come in and out of that place,
what's your sense of whether or not he would have
been in a state of mind to have given up
on his his defense like you've seen other white collar
criminals come and go, do they Because one argument is
(31:38):
this guy's he felt like his life was over and
so that's a reason why he would just take his life.
You know, he had this high flying life, jets, mansion, partying,
the elites, and now all of a sudden he's here.
So it makes sense that he would just be like,
you know what, I'm out of here, I cannot take.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
This abrupt shift.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
What what's your read on knowing other people who've gone
through that situation.
Speaker 8 (32:05):
Firstly, obviously can't comment to his particular state of mind
or his mental health, right, I can say that that
generally speaking, I have two problems with the narrative that
he took his own life. The first is that, you know,
any good attorney would have told him that he's got
two things that are very important going for him. First,
(32:26):
he's got the money to retain a vigorous defense team. Right.
And this can really matter because, like I put this
in my write up, you only need look as far
as Sean P.
Speaker 5 (32:35):
Di D.
Speaker 8 (32:36):
Combs, right, who just beat federal sex trafficking charges in
the same courthouse, brought by the same prosecutors who are
going after Epstein. Right, He had a big legal team.
He did it. You know, if you read the media
and the press, you would have thought he was done for.
But you know, he had the money for the lawyers,
and they squeaked it out, right, So I don't really
(32:57):
buy it. And you know, Sean, you know he didn't
hang it. He didn't kill himself. It's called hanging it
up in prison parlance. But he didn't do it right,
facing a very similar racket in the same courthouse. They
actually held him in a different, slightly different facility, but
it's also very poor conditions. It's the ADX Max Shoe
in Brooklyn, and I've also done time there. I've done
time in the shoe where Pitt he was and at
(33:19):
the time where Epstein was, so you know what I mean, like,
he didn't hang it up. And then as to the
second thing, is that Epstein was in the position potentially
to cut a deal, either with the Trump administration or
with some future administration. He had no shortage of people
that he could have informed on. Right. And there's actually
(33:39):
a federal rule of criminal procedure, it's Rull thirty five
b right where the government can the court can depart downward,
can give a much lighter sentence. It can give a
sentence lower than the statutory minimum. So even if he
was facing, like say, a statutory minimum of ten years,
the court could go below that statutory minimum if he
had provided substantial assistance aecuting another individual right. And so
(34:02):
the guys that you think of in prison as being
desperate enough to take their own lives are generally the ones, right,
who's all their boys have figured them out? Right, everyone's
rd it on them. They have no one left to
sell out for a deal, right, That's the guy who's,
in my opinion, the very large suicidirist. And you know,
here's the other thing too. Epstein was a Wall Street
(34:24):
quant right. And if you do any game theory study,
you hear about the prisoner's dilemma, which is basically the
question of you know, do you rat someone else out
in jail? That's one of the core exercises in game theory.
I'm sure Epstein was familiar with it. It would be
very unlikely in my mind that he would not have
heard of the prisoner's dilemma. And so you know, I've
got these problems with the narrative.
Speaker 4 (34:46):
And from your understanding of the layout of the jail,
does the footage that we have cover all the ways
in and out or are there would there have been
other ways that people could move around?
Speaker 8 (35:00):
So the footage doesn't even show the main entrance to
the shoe. That camera does not even show the main
interest to the shoe. The main entrance to that shoe
actually has written above it, or had written above it.
When I was there America's strongest shoe. It says that
right as you walk into that ship, right, So if
it showed the front door, that's what it would show.
This is the footage from some ancillary tier that is.
(35:22):
And again it's like it's built with this like central
region where you have like a little law library cage,
and you have like the officer station, and then there
are hallways shooting off in different directions, and they're stacked
one on top of the other, so you'll have like
G tier above H tier right, like J tier above
I tier right, and they shoot off in all these
different directions. The narration of the footage that I've seen
(35:43):
shows that Epstein's tier was somewhere off way to the
right of the footage that's been released, right, And there
should be another tier camera like the camera that you're
seeing here, right. It's recording to people walking onto a tier,
the entrance of which is below the camera, right, So
anyone comes onto this tier has to cross this camera
to be seen. There should be a camera just like
(36:04):
that on the tier when Epstein's cell actually was, But
we've not seen footage from that camera.
Speaker 6 (36:10):
And so are there other things?
Speaker 5 (36:12):
As you've thought about this for years now about the
facility that people don't know, like that you wouldn't know
if you were just sort of a member of the public.
That influenced the way you see the allegation that Jeffrey
Epstein killed himself, Like, are there things going on there
that make you see this story differently than if you've
(36:34):
never stepped foot inside the shoe people would see it.
Speaker 8 (36:38):
I think mostly the stuff that I've gone over, I mean,
obviously knowing the facility itself and having experienced the staff,
you know, and you can this is all public record.
I published it back in twenty sixteen and twenty seventeen
at huff Post and shadow Proof, and we dropped an
article at The Intercept I think in twenty eighteen or
twenty nineteen, right, So you know it's all out there.
(37:00):
But you know, I sued over this facility. I filed
in federal court because of the conditions there. So yeah,
I mean it is it is. I will say that
it is a place where people can feel particularly desperate,
especially in the winter or the summer, because you freeze
in the winter and you boil in the summer in
that shoe. There's no air conditioning. The heat is insufficient.
(37:22):
You know, I had leaky water. There's cockroaches and rodents
and everything in this shoe. You have to like put
something under your in the gap under your cell door
so stuff doesn't come in at night, you know. So
that I mean, I can see how someone could potentially
get somewhat desperate. But again, you know, you have all
these guys who are facing like frankly worse situations, who
(37:45):
don't have the money for the attorneys, who have their
friends fingering them, and they don't commit suicide. They don't
die by suicide. About three or four dozen guys were
on death row, sentenced to die for really heinous crimes
right on the day that the Biden administration announced the
commutation of their death sentences. Right, none of those guys
(38:07):
had killed themselves, can't.
Speaker 6 (38:09):
That's also about the guards.
Speaker 5 (38:10):
You just mentioned that, and that's part of the story
is that the guards just who were subsequently fired, just
were they were distracted, they were sleep.
Speaker 6 (38:19):
They just missed what was happening.
Speaker 5 (38:21):
That also is an element that it seems insane to
a lay person, and maybe it is insane, But what
have you made of that?
Speaker 11 (38:29):
So when I was there, you had a couple of
CEOs who were good, a whole mess that were lazy,
and some of that were outright malicious.
Speaker 8 (38:40):
And that's pretty much the mix wherever you go in
the Bureau of Prisons, in the US Federal Bureau of Prisons,
it's going to be that way and pretty much any facility.
You know, certainly they're supposed to do half hour rounds
in any shoe. So a shoe is a special housing
unit and SHU and it's pronounced like, you know, like
footwear at shoe. But there's certain rules in the shoe,
(39:01):
and they're supposed to be the same wherever you go
in the federal prison system, right, and so they're supposed
to do these half hour rounds. You know, we haven't
seen camera footage that definitively answers one way or the
other whether those rounds were done, but we're told that
they were not done, and that you know, there has
been this long period, you know, before anyone had gotten
to them. I find that realistic from my time there,
(39:24):
because you pay attention. You hear when the guards are
coming on rounds, and they definitely did miss rounds more than.
Speaker 4 (39:30):
Yeah, I would I would think, yeah, that that part
actually did square for me too, just knowing people, uh,
in the middle of the night, like if you can
get away with staying in your chair and and you
know closing your eyes and sleeping, you're probably going to
do it. So so that that that that part of.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Me kind of did track that.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
In the army, they call it pencil whipping when you're
told to like, you know, go go make sure all
of these you know, hum v's have like oil as
you know, sufficient amount of oil and it and you
instead you don't do it, and you just check off
that you did it. Like that's actually pretty standard bureaucratic laziness.
Speaker 8 (40:08):
I mean again, you see it in the Bureau of
Prisons everywhere. But you know, there were a couple of
CEOs there was. There was one his name was Ortiz,
and he would make his rounds every half hour and
you'd see it from the light because you know, the
light's off in the hallway at night, right, so you
can see the flashlight like coming and going. And I
was up late writing a lot. I took five hundred
pages of notes in that shoe because Rolling Stone it
(40:31):
asked me to, you know, write down everything for a
piece that they were working on about my case. So
I have five hundred pages of notes, day and timestamp
about everything that happened in that shoe. And yeah, so
there were a couple who were diligent. I'm not trying
to throw everyone under the bus, but you know, for
the most part lazy and some outright malicious.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (40:52):
Yes, if people want to learn more about it, I
would encourage they go google. Martin god is telling you
looked up puff Post or Intercept for his you know,
his piece on the conditions at MCC and then also
his story on serving alongside Choppo's. That's a pretty pretty
interesting one that people can go find if they want to.
Speaker 8 (41:12):
Well, for a minimum security guy, for a guide who
was supposedly minimum security, you know the whole time.
Speaker 4 (41:18):
Yes, indeed, Well, Marty, thanks so much for joining us,
very much appreciate it, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 5 (41:26):
The Bravo worthy feud between Hunter Biden and the pod
Save America hosts rages on, and not surprisingly, here's Tommy
Veeder yesterday and actually John love it as well, reacting
to some of Hunter Biden's comments about them on Andrew
Callahan Show just the other day.
Speaker 6 (41:45):
Let's roll the clip.
Speaker 12 (41:46):
You were on the board of barisma because of who
your dad is, and that is what people hate about Washington,
and it was part of the problem. And like there's
some other weird shit, like he said he blames the
debate on his the Biden's staff, saying they gave him
ambient on his foreign trip. But like Biden got back
from the g seven on June fourteenth, the debate with
(42:08):
June twenty.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Seventh, a fucking ambient.
Speaker 12 (42:10):
If ambient was the issue, Like, I don't think it's ambient,
it's a age, Like he was tired, so they gave
him ambient also, like just like allow me to rent
one more second. Like his big beef is that Republicans
stick together and Democrats are united, but he's obsessed with
this show, obsessed with George Clooney. They don't talk about
Gaza until two hours and fifty minutes into the interview.
(42:31):
I'm guessing that that was the bigger threat to party
unity than a George Clooney off ed. You know what
I mean. It's just this sense of entitlement that like
from Biden, from his family, from the inner circle, that
he was like owed the presidency, owed a second term.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
It's just very fucking grading.
Speaker 13 (42:49):
That Hunter Biden throughout Joe Biden's presidency was a terrible
liability for him, and put the addiction aside. It is
because he was on Barisma, because he became an artist,
because he was part of a kind of like sleazy
Washington that, as Tommy said, people hated you were a liability.
You should be ashamed of the ways in which you
(43:10):
made your father's political life worse. And like the idea
that we're going to listen to you now, like give
me a fucking break's ridiculous.
Speaker 5 (43:17):
So you may remember that Hunter Biden actually really was
cooking Ryan when he slammed the Pod Save America host
for basically being guys hold up in multimillion dollar mansions
in La Yeah and Beverly Hills and then giving the
Democratic Party advice based on their time in the Obama
White House, you know, at least ten years ago at
(43:39):
this point, and saying this is how the Democratic Party
can like recapture the hearts and minds of the American people.
Speaker 6 (43:47):
Hunter's kind of right, and they're kind of right.
Speaker 4 (43:49):
Yeah, Hunter's definitely right. On the other hand, who is
Hunter Biden.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
To be talking about.
Speaker 6 (43:55):
It's incredible.
Speaker 4 (43:56):
He goes on and on about all of these people
who he says have insignificant life accomplishments, including James Carville
and David Axelrod. By the way, if all you ever
do in your life is get a president elected, that's
you actually accomplished a pretty significant amount, but without asking,
without looking inward and being like, oh wait, I'm Hunter Biden.
I was born on third base and I just got
(44:19):
tagged out, like standing off the bag. So you know,
while his brother, you know, was you know, governor of
Delaware and was possibly on his way to being president.
I think if he, if he had not gotten killed
by the burn pits in Iraq. So anyway, let's let's
hear a little bit more of Hunter Biden's griping, particularly
(44:42):
about Clooney and some mothers.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
He's not a big fan of Clooney.
Speaker 5 (44:46):
And this is not on Callahan show. This is from
So it's actually.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
He's been making the rounds.
Speaker 5 (44:51):
Yes, well, he's done two podcasts stops. So the first
one was his good friend Jamie Harrison's new podcast that
is being pitched in all seriousness as like a real
effort to reconnect with the American people, to connect with
the American people. Yeah, Wygle made that joke in his
Hemaphore exclusive like debuting the podcast, and it actually isn't.
(45:13):
Like you can tell Jamie Harrison thinks that's what this
podcast is, and anyone who's funding it.
Speaker 6 (45:17):
Thinks that's what this podcast is.
Speaker 5 (45:18):
But Jamie Harrison didn't like have any idea how to
promote his Newsy conversation with Hunter Biden, So like nobody
discovered what he said to Jamie Harrison until after he
was going on that he had said anything like interesting
on Jamie Harrett, all the good stuff. Yeah, yeah, So
here's Hunter Biden with Jamie Harrison on George Clooney.
Speaker 14 (45:39):
The President of the United States didn't know who the
actor was. They had written him in his staff I
don't know ten five six four letters, text, texting the
staff over and over again.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
And he's going to pull out.
Speaker 14 (45:53):
He's going to embarrass the administration, he's going tombarrass the
Democratic Party. He's going to pull out of the biggest
fundraiser because he disrespected his wife. Because you don't agree
with the policy as it relates to an arrest warrant
for Nettnago. Whether that's right or wrong, I don't give
a shit. That's good for the party. I'm not saying
he's not a good Democrat. I'm not saying that he's
not smart. I'm not saying that he's not a brilliant actor.
I'm not saying that he's not a good friend to
(46:14):
the friends that he's friends to. But in that moment, no,
he wasn't and he didn't do the right thing. And
to say something that is so patently untrue in order
to justify what you did afterwards is cowardly.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Yep, is weak.
Speaker 6 (46:31):
He's also right that George Clooney was kind of cowardly.
Speaker 5 (46:34):
He wrote that New York Times up ed not until
after Joe Biden had his debate crash and burn, right
when Clooney said.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
It was pretty like it was pretty close, right.
Speaker 6 (46:45):
Yeah, yeah, it was a couple of weeks.
Speaker 5 (46:47):
Yeah, but Clooney, and this is i think reported out
in the Tapa Thompson book. People at that LA fundraiser
were really apparently kind of shocked by Biden's state.
Speaker 4 (46:59):
And if you remember it was televised like it was
a huge, one of the biggest fundraisers ever. We covered
it afterwards is when he so there were there's video
footage of it where he like wanders off the stage
and Obama has to like grab him, And that was
one of the times that.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
They called it a cheap thing.
Speaker 4 (47:17):
So it wasn't just Clooney that Now Clooney had the
interaction where Biden's aid was like, sir, this is George Clooney,
George who was George Hunt?
Speaker 1 (47:26):
And that's when Clooney is like, what now?
Speaker 4 (47:28):
What Hunter Biden is referring to there is that a
Mall Clooney is an advisor to the International Criminal Court,
and Biden was threatening sanctions on anybody involved with the ICC,
which would mean that perhaps the Mall Clooney would be
barred from the country and would have her like bank
accounts frozen and couldn't do financial transactions. So Hunters saying
(47:50):
that Clooney actually had an ax to grind.
Speaker 6 (47:52):
There, which is crazy. I mean, that's a huge shit.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
Also, it's like, Biden, what are you doing.
Speaker 4 (47:57):
Yeah, choosing the side of this war criminal who's going
who's trying to cost you the election? And you're going
to sanction a Mall Clooney over this. Get a grip.
Speaker 5 (48:11):
It's such a crazy set of circumstances that Hunter Biden
is casually revealing on his podcast appearance.
Speaker 4 (48:19):
But that's also crystal flag that he took credit for
Leonard Peltier's commutation. I asked somebody who was involved with that,
and they said, it is a fact that at that
last minute commutation was done with the family. So that's
a credible We can confirm that that's a credible claim,
at least from Hunter Biden.
Speaker 5 (48:39):
I mean, he went pretty deep with Callahan on Leonard Peltier.
Speaker 4 (48:44):
So yeah, and to overcome Biden's instinctive hostility to somebody
like Peltier, who was convicted of killing two FBI agents,
it must have taken somebody like Hunter to overcome that.
Speaker 5 (48:56):
So I actually i'm did you did you watch the
whole Andrew cow Hanna Interviews three hours long? It was
I think you actually really like it, to be honest,
because his I found his comments on narcotics and addiction
to be really interesting.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
Well, he's a smart, charming guy.
Speaker 6 (49:12):
He's very smart.
Speaker 5 (49:13):
He's obviously beyond messed up and in like the most
tragic ways, and some of which he's aware of, others
of which he's not aware of at all. But I
was thinking about yesterday, like there's this part of him
right now. That's the jokes about him being the new
Joe Rogan. There's it's funny because it's actually he's kind
of like the new Trump in the sense that Trump.
(49:37):
The reason that people are making this joke about Hunter
being the new Joe Rogan is because he comes out
and laughably, of course, flames the dumb establishment and positions
himself as a victim of elites. Him and his family
is a victim of scheming elites who just couldn't wait
to get rid of his dad, which is obviously not true.
Speaker 6 (49:56):
But he's flaming the political establishment.
Speaker 5 (49:58):
He's flaming elites in a way that Jamie Harrison sure
as hell isn't going to do, none of these influencers,
Harry Sisson, sure as hell isn't going to do. That's
why they got rid of David Hogg. And that's the
thing that that Hunter Biden is doing that Trump forced
Republicans do to do in twenty fifteen sixteen. He went
out there. He wasn't scared to criticize Fox News. He
(50:19):
wasn't like, ooh, I won't get on Fox News, or
oh Potze of America will go after me if I
say something mean about them, and Hunter Biden's kind of
forcing them to reckon with the reality that people want
to hear you flaming establishment, the establishment right now, and
that's the best way to get traction.
Speaker 4 (50:37):
I don't want it to take away from his art career,
but I Hunter should do a podcast, right And with Hunter,
there's so many pun names you can come up with
for a podcast. Yeah, but yeah, Hunter, I mean the
right should love him. He loves guns, he loves liberty, freedom.
Speaker 5 (50:53):
I think the sad thing is he doesn't actually love guns,
not not frying, not anymore. No, maybe sober Hunter and
love guns as much as addict Hunter.
Speaker 4 (51:02):
But yeah, three hour conversations with Hunter and like whoever.
Speaker 5 (51:06):
Just about Leonard Peltier, Like I'd listen three hours from
Hunter Biden on Leonard Peltier
Speaker 1 (51:11):
Getting on there, Like with the Nelk Boys, that was
wild
Hey guys, Saga and Crystal here.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election,
and we are so excited about what that means for
the future of the show.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
This is the only place where you can find honest
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So if that is something that's important to you, please
go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and
you'll access to our full shows, unedited, ad free, and
all put together for you every morning in your inbox.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
We need your help to build the future of independent
news media and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints
dot com.
Speaker 4 (00:33):
Happy Wednesday, Welcome to Breaking Points yep with Ryan and
Emily's right. Emily, by the way, programming note, will be
in the new media chair at the White House later today.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Asking Carolyn Levitt.
Speaker 5 (00:46):
Something something we don't want to give anything away.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I've got an idea.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
So my paperback came out yesterday. You should ask Caroline
if she has read the Squad. I say, like, by
the way, it came out and paperback yesterday, so if
you've been waiting to get the cheaper version.
Speaker 6 (01:00):
So this is a good idea for the question itself.
Speaker 5 (01:02):
I can say Amazon dot Com paperback out today whatever,
nineteen ninety nine, however, which it costs.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Yeah, tell if she wants to understand how APAC operates
in Washington, this would be the book for her.
Speaker 5 (01:13):
I think they are curious these days.
Speaker 6 (01:16):
They could learn, right, I have a gift for you.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
What you got?
Speaker 6 (01:19):
All right? So you were gone last week, so I
couldn't give it to you. But look at that.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
This is a teenage mutant ninja turtle.
Speaker 6 (01:28):
It's a Turtle Boy shirt.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Ride the Turtle from Turtle Boy.
Speaker 6 (01:32):
That's from the Turtle Boy merch shop.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
Well, I went to University of Maryland and there slogans
fear the turtle.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
That's right, So there we go.
Speaker 6 (01:40):
It works other way.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
You could be walking around the like Rehoboth we had.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
We had a bunch of people angry about that interview.
Oh I saw because yeah, he's I mean, he's kind
of crazy.
Speaker 6 (01:49):
He's a controversial man.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yes, he's a controversial man.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
But now you can it's the craziness, and craziness is
putting it lightly. Perhaps that allows him to be so
dogged in some of these cases. Does not mean I
endorse everything the man has done or will do.
Speaker 5 (02:03):
Nor should you have to endorse everything that he has
done or will do in order to interview him on
a really important case. And anyway, basically how this all
happened is that I was on his website and I
noticed he had a merch shop, and I was.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Like, oh, this is amazing, Thank.
Speaker 6 (02:17):
You for this. It's pretty funny.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
It's like there's there's something there amazing. Anyway that my
pleasure much appreciated.
Speaker 6 (02:26):
Yes, now to the news.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
I came in to hawk merch and instead I'm leaving
with merch.
Speaker 6 (02:30):
But it was an exchange trade. I mean, there you go.
This is what work.
Speaker 5 (02:34):
Could you ask for out now in paperback. It's so
light you can take it to the beach.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
You really can.
Speaker 6 (02:39):
Everyone know that you're smart, aeradite.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
There's perfect, perfect, I got it.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
So we're going to be talking about the latest attempt
by Donald Trump to distract from Jeffrey Epstein. This time
he's accusing Obama of high treason. The man is off
his game. He even said to the fake news media,
you need to focus on this instead of the other
thing he did. He's just saying it out loud. The
guy has really lost his touch. We're going to talk
(03:05):
about the the the Democratic autopsy is being conducted among
the Podsave Bros And Hunter Biden.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
They're they're working their stuff out.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
You're gonna you're gonna enjoy this one. Microsoft workers told
their bosses yesterday that they are no longer going to
work on Israeli tech Microsoft supplies, as drop site has
reported in the past, a lot of the tech for
their their AI, their their cloud computing, their war machine,
and now their workers are standing up and saying we're
(03:36):
not We're not We're not doing We're not doing that.
Not all workers at Microsoft, of course, but a substantial
chunk of them.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
We'll talk about that.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
We'll also talk about the ongoing siege uh the number
of people that continued to die of starvation as well
as getting killed at aid distribution sites. I'm going to
have a little look back in the UH at a
piece about the nineteen nineties when a certain Prime Minister
of Israel, Benjamin who at the time he's been in
(04:06):
office that long, not continuously, but that long, was alleged
to have blackmailed Bill Clinton over the Monica Lewinsky tapes.
Ye turns out there's a lot to it so you're
gonna want to stick around for that.
Speaker 6 (04:17):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
We're also going to have an inmate who served basically
alongside Jeffrey Epstein, and when they removed Epstein's cellmate after
he died, he went to Martin Gotdisfeldt's cell So we're
going to talk to Martin Goddess about what he knows
about that correction center, what he heard from Epstein's cellmate.
(04:41):
Because missing in the reporting this controversy is the voices
of the people who were actually in the building, because
there were plenty of people in there.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
So let's talk to some of them. And then the
white the wife of.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
The guy who made the ice block app is going
to join us as well.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
She somehow thought that she and't be fired by the
Department Justice for this.
Speaker 6 (05:01):
Yeah, it seemed unlikely.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
We're gonna ask her.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
We're gonna say, hey, cool, app as far as I'm concerned,
But you thought that that was going to be okay,
didn't seem like that would fly anyway.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Can't wait to hear from her.
Speaker 6 (05:14):
A lot to get into.
Speaker 5 (05:15):
Let's start in the Oval office yesterday where Donald Trump,
to the point Ryan just made, did kind of say
the quiet part aloud.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Which is although let's start with massy, right with.
Speaker 6 (05:23):
The massy Yeah.
Speaker 5 (05:25):
Well, so basically here's what's happening. Let's break it down
this way. There were efforts among Democrats, as we've covered
here to end, among Thomas Massey, Republican, a couple other
Republicans to get a vote done before August recess on
the Epstein files. Then Donald Trump yesterday also waited on
the future of the Epstein file. So we can start
(05:47):
here with a two. This is Thomas Massey weighing in.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
On Mike Johnson.
Speaker 5 (05:54):
But House Speaker Mike Johnson shut down the floor basically
yesterday and said, we are not we are not going
to take lessons on transparency from the Democrats who covered
up for Joe Biden's health crisis.
Speaker 6 (06:09):
That was the line, Let's roll the club.
Speaker 7 (06:11):
The House Rules resolution sets a good standard and requires
all credible evidence to be released. And that's exactly where
the White House is. As I've said many times over
the lass. As I've said many times, there's no daylight
between the White House and the House. You have to
allow the legislation to write and you also have to
allow the administration the space to do what it is doing.
(06:32):
The President has said clearly, and he has now ordered
his DOJ to do what it is we've all needed
DOJ to do for years now, and that is to
get everything released.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
So they're in the process of that.
Speaker 7 (06:42):
There's no purpose for Congress to push an administration to
do something that they're already doing, and so this is
for political games. I'm not going to address anybody individually,
but I'll tell you that some here are much more
frustrated than others. There's a small, small, tiny handful, but
one in particular who's given me lots of consternation.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
I don't understand. I don't understand Thomas Massey's motivation. I
really don't. I don't know how his mind works. I
don't know what he's thinking.
Speaker 7 (07:06):
Thomas Massey could have brought his discharge petition anytime over
the last four and a half years, over the last four.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Years of bid administration.
Speaker 7 (07:12):
He could have done that at any time, and now
he's clamoring as if there's some sort of timeline on it.
It's interesting to me that he chose the election of
President Trump to bring this, to team up with the
Democrats and bring this discharge petition.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
So do I have some concern about that.
Speaker 5 (07:26):
I do, okay, But the timeline is that Attorney General
Pam Bond he closed the case a couple of weeks ago.
That's basically why this has resurfaced. Ryan, you made this
point about Thomas Massey while we were watching the clip.
Speaker 6 (07:39):
He posted a pretty hot Telly.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
We can add this in post.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
He responded, Speaker Johnson, why are you running cover for
an underage sex trafficking ring and pretending this is a
part is an issue? MAGA voted for this, and in fact,
Johnson's own post on x about this has a community
note saying over half of the sponsors of Hrs five
to eighty one, which he is blocking, which he is
(08:05):
shutting down the House so that there won't be vote
on it, and this is nasty. Kana has half over
half of the co sponsors are Republicans, so the effort
to paint this as like a democratic thing kind of
falls falls flat in the face of that. And yes,
to your point, the reason that there's movement now in
(08:26):
the White House is because of the public pressure. And separately,
if it's the case that they're already doing the thing,
then it wouldn't be offensive to push them to just
do it.
Speaker 5 (08:37):
Well, yeah, absolutely, And again, the only reason that this
has now become the news cycle every single day is
because Pambondi came out and said no, further disclosures are
warranted in the case, and then Trump has doubled down
and tripled down on that point.
Speaker 6 (08:53):
So let's actually get to this.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
Clearly, they're shutting down the House of Representatives early so
that they don't have to vote on this.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
It's incredible reading from playbook right now, Johnson is a
journey house business. This afternoon, the last votes are scheduled
for three PM and canceling for their action ahead of
August recess in order to question an effort to force
a floor vote that would hasten the release of the
Epstein files. Republicans want to get back to their districts
because they think that's this is how they're spinning it.
(09:23):
But also I think they truly believe this an important
time for them to be able to.
Speaker 6 (09:27):
Go out and talk about the big, beautiful.
Speaker 5 (09:28):
Bill and sell it in their districts because obviously it's
not polled with great popularity since its passage, so they're
really eager a not to have to take their Epstein
vote and b to get out of town and talk
to people. Now, I think some Republicans actually would like
to take the vote so that they don't get it's
a talking point when they're back during August recess. And
(09:51):
I asked a bunch of House Republicans last week about this,
and they told me, Yeah, they do expect to hear
from people in their district about it. So it's very
clear that they know they're going to get these questions and.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Why not just vote?
Speaker 4 (10:01):
It's not as if it's not as if the Senate's
going to pass it tomorrow, And so I don't even
understand why Johnson even needs to go to the mat Like,
so he put up his own resolution that's pretty toothless
yes in exchange for this one to say, like, don't
vote on this on this one that has like actual teeth,
(10:22):
vote vote for this one instead, and then we won't
vote on that one.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Okay, but he did that.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
What's the difference though, because it doesn't have teeth. If
it doesn't pass the Senate, it.
Speaker 6 (10:30):
Is a symbolic vote either way.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
So what are you doing?
Speaker 4 (10:33):
Yeah, like you you can still be cynical and we.
Speaker 6 (10:37):
Know what they're doing. This is the first clip.
Speaker 5 (10:39):
Let's because Donald Trump basically clearly this is a one.
Speaker 6 (10:43):
Let's roll Trump yesterday in the White House.
Speaker 8 (10:45):
I didn't know that they were going to do it.
I don't really follow that too much.
Speaker 9 (10:48):
It's it's a sort of a witch hunt, just a
continuation of the witch hunt. The witch hunt that you
should be talking about is they caught President Obama absolutely cold.
They tried to rig the election. Then they got caught,
and there should be very severe consequences for that. Barack
Hussein Obama is the ringleader. Hillary Clinton was right there
(11:12):
with him, and so was Sleepy Joe Biden, and so
with the rest of them, call me Clapper, the whole group.
And they tried to rig an election, and they got caught.
And then they did rig the election in twenty twenty.
And then because I knew I won that election by
a lot, I did it a third time and I
won in a landslide. Every swing state won the popular
about Look, he's guilty. It is not a question, you know.
(11:34):
I like to say, let's give it time.
Speaker 8 (11:38):
It's there.
Speaker 9 (11:38):
He's guilty. This was treason. This was every word you
can think of. They tried to steal the election. And
we have all of the documents, and from what Tolsey
told me, she's got thousands of additional documents coming. So
President Obama it was his concept, his idea, but he
(12:02):
also got it from Crooked Hillary Clinton.
Speaker 8 (12:04):
Crooked is a three dollars bill. Now it looks like Adam.
Speaker 9 (12:07):
Schiff really did a bad thing.
Speaker 8 (12:12):
They have him. Now let's see what happens.
Speaker 9 (12:15):
It's not up to me. It's not up to I
stay out of it purposely. But it's mortgage loan fraud.
Speaker 8 (12:21):
It's a big deal.
Speaker 9 (12:22):
He defrauded banks and insurance companies in the federal government.
Speaker 5 (12:28):
Okay, so right, you may disagree with me on this.
Speaker 6 (12:31):
I think two.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
Things are true in this case. It's not just that
two things can be true. I think two things are
true that the documents that are being released from Trump's
intelligence community, so from Tulca Gabbard and then John Ratcliffe
a couple of weeks back, are important, consequential, significant, scandalous,
(12:53):
and they are using it to distract very clearly from
Trump's bungling and Pavoni's bungling, both of them of the
Epstein case, the political fallout, because you see Trump put
it that way saying directly, you should be focused on
this witch hunt against me, not the witch hunt towards
me right now on Epstein, he basically just hunt.
Speaker 6 (13:16):
Yeah, bro, Yes, he's saying that.
Speaker 5 (13:19):
Yes, and so I was much worse than a witch Yeah,
that's for sure. But this is the timing of the
Gabbard document dump is very convenient for Donald Trump, obviously
because it sucks oxygen away from the Epstein story.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
And also for Gabbard, who had been in the doghouse,
and then yesterday at the White House, Trump says she's
the best one in the room right now, something like,
you know, real pat on the head for Gabbard, you know,
who's kind of now back in the good graces. And
tell me if I'm so just for people that aren't
following exactly what the revelations are here essentially, and you correct.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Me if I'm getting the narrative wrong here.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
Essentially, throughout the twenty sixteen election, the intelligence community, according
to these documents, assessed that Russia was not actually trying
to hack into election systems. That's actually contradicted by what
Reality Winner leaked. Because the intelligence community believed that they
try to get into North Carolina and some other election
(14:24):
systems with some with these fishing expeditions that they found
they didn't, they didn't.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
They don't know what they were going to do when
they're in.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
There, because like oftentimes, these foreign actors or hackers will
just get in and sometimes steal stuff just just to
hang out there in case they want to do something later.
In any event, Let's say I see as saying they're
not trying to change the votes or do anything like
cyber hacking around the election.
Speaker 5 (14:47):
Well, and we do have emails of them saying that,
saying that was their belief at the time.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yeah, right, And there's no evidence they did.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
There's that, there's that reality winner evidence that they tried.
Speaker 5 (14:58):
And these documents are act after the election. So this
is December of so Toussy Gabbertt on Friday dumped a
bunch of documents and put them together sort of in
this narrative framing to show how Barack Obama, this is
the contention, Barack Obama directed the intelligence community to first
(15:21):
enhance its interpretation of what happened between Russia and Trump.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
Right, And so it's a December ninth meeting which includes Clapper, Brannon,
Susan Rice, John Kerry, the red of Lynch, Andrew McCabe,
and others December ninth, twenty sixteen with Obama. Then they
say there's an email to the IC leaders asking them
to create a new assessment quote per the President's request.
And that's from a Clapper's executive assistant that details the quote,
(15:51):
tools Moscow used and actions it took to influence the
twenty sixteen election unquote. Now here's where what Democrats are
doing is dirty. So they're acknowledging that there's no attempt
to kind of hack the election. What they're doing is
they're redefining what hack means and what cyber means. Tools
(16:15):
Moscow use, and actions it took to influence a twenty
sixteen election. What they will eventually find is like a
couple hundred thousand dollars worth of Facebook ads.
Speaker 6 (16:23):
It means yeah, yeah, And.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
They will and like attempts to like organize Black Lives
Matter rallies that like three people showed up for.
Speaker 5 (16:30):
Basically these ham fisted attempts. You could go back and
read the twenty seventeen Senate report. These hilariously ham fisted
attempts to like stoke the anger of boomers over trans
issues BLM.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Right and all that, And so what Democrats would say,
if they had a legal defense here, they'd say, those
are cyber attempts, right, that's what they're So they're changing, right,
that is cyber, totally cyber. But they're playing with your
understanding of the word cyber.
Speaker 6 (16:58):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
The problem for Trump here is that's dirty.
Speaker 6 (17:03):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
But politics is dirty. Is that illegal?
Speaker 8 (17:08):
Now?
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Is it an assault on the dignity of our democracy?
Yes it is? Is it gross? Is it awful? Yes,
it's all those things. It's also pretty standard politics. So
that that's my view at least I think. And I
was critical of them the entire time because the other
(17:29):
reason that they wanted to focus on Russia, it's not
just to undermine Trump, but was to also undermine the
Bernie wing of the Democratic Party and get in the
way of an actual audit of why did we lose.
Speaker 6 (17:43):
They were using some of the same language to.
Speaker 5 (17:45):
Talk about Bernie Sanders and actually.
Speaker 6 (17:47):
Tulsi Gabbard at the time.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
They were saying Russia boosted Bernie and stuff like that.
Speaker 5 (17:51):
Yeah, And they were using this it's like wink wink,
nod nod language about cyber infrastructure and they knew what
people thought they meant.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
By honeymoon in the so Union. That used to point out, yes, which.
Speaker 6 (18:02):
Was true, Yeah, totally true.
Speaker 5 (18:04):
Also weird, but anyway, they had.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
A sister city in the Soviet Union.
Speaker 5 (18:11):
Still doesn't explain the honeymoon, but the story is equally entertaining,
So burning man.
Speaker 6 (18:20):
Anyway, So to.
Speaker 5 (18:22):
Your point, dirty dirty stuff right now also absolutely being
used as a shield to suck oxygen out of the
Epstein story. And Donald Trump basically made that explicit yesterday
by saying, focus over here, look away from that, look
at this, and that's the that's the plan right now.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
To finish this.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
Gabbard's document says, after months of investigation in the matter,
the facts revealed. This new assessmant was based on information
that was known by those involved to be manufactured I
either steeal dossier or deemed as not credible. Yes, and no,
like is it who said it was not credible? Like
there was some intel assessments said that the Steele dossier
(19:06):
wasn't credible. There were, But then there's lots of like
you know, feverish lunatics in the IC who are like, no,
we think this, there might be something here we're going
to investigate, right, and that's what the IC does anyway.
Speaker 5 (19:20):
So the new documents revealed that Obama directed this, right,
So there's there's an email saying part of the president
from Clapper Clopper's team is this.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Part of the president of the president's requests.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
We're basically coming up with a new intelligence report other
than this one that downplays the confidence that we have
that Russia influence.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
But your point is exactly right.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
You can you can weigh on your own how much
how important you think these documents are, but clearly they're
an attempt to distract from what's going on with Epstein.
And the problem I think for Republicans here is that,
you know, I've spent the last almost decade watching Republicans
organize most of their's kind of subcul politics around pedophilia
(20:02):
and the idea that there are pedophiles everywhere and that
there are these organized sex trafficking rings that are being
operated by Democrats and Podesta and Clinton, and you know,
the entire Q phenomenon is heavily organized around these sex
trafficking rings.
Speaker 5 (20:16):
And it was more maga than the gop apparatus subculture, which.
Speaker 6 (20:23):
With Trump, yes, right, So.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
This whole thing that MAGA used to get people worked
up over the last seven eight years, that there are
these hidden sex trafficking rings run by elites is not
going to just be brushed aside because it turns out
that Trump was heavily involved in it. And they're not
(20:46):
going to look away just because there's some new Russiagate documents. No,
it's pretty funny that we're going to be using Russiagate.
Both parties will use Russiagate as a distraction from other
things for the rest of our lives.
Speaker 5 (20:58):
But you know, it's actually I was thinking about this yesterday.
It's so depressing because both stories speak fundamentally to the
same thing, believe it or not, which is that in
the shadows of republican governments lowercase, are republican government democracy,
however you want to describe it, are these very undemocratic,
unaccountable powers operating the shadows that you have no idea
(21:22):
about until ten, twenty thirty, forty years later. We're still
waiting on JFK documents right now because there's just no
accountability in the intelligence community. So they're and yet they're
exerting so much control over information and policy and all
of that. So in some way they're the same story,
(21:43):
like on that basic fundamental level, which is really depressing.
Let's get to this video of to the point Ryan
made about this not going away. Here is Ways and
Means Committee Chairman Jason Smith getting asked by Casey Hunt
about subpoena power. Would you ever use subpoena power to
try to find out more information about Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 10 (22:02):
Well, you may use subpoena powers at any point. That
is not a common thing that I have utilized within
the Ways and Means Committee.
Speaker 8 (22:12):
But if I felt like that it was a.
Speaker 10 (22:14):
Priority for Americans, then of course. But like I said,
this has not been something that's been a driving force.
Speaker 6 (22:22):
But you did use subpoena power with Hunter Biden exactly.
Speaker 10 (22:29):
We have the authority to use it, but that is
the only time that I have used it. Epstein is
not the priority of everyday American who's working nine to five,
just trying to put food on their table, closing their backs,
and gasoline in their cars. That is not their focus.
Speaker 5 (22:46):
And I don't think their focus with Hunter Biden either.
But this is another point where two things.
Speaker 6 (22:51):
Can be true.
Speaker 5 (22:52):
Hunter Biden important story Epstein important story, trying to put
food on your table important story, worry, and people can
care a lot more and rightfully so about putting food
on their table, feeding their families, and creating a.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
About child sex rings.
Speaker 6 (23:10):
You can care.
Speaker 5 (23:10):
Yeah, we do have room in our hearts and minds
for all of these things. And certainly people had room
for Hunter Biden when inflation was even worse than it
is right now.
Speaker 6 (23:22):
So that's not a good excuse.
Speaker 5 (23:24):
It does show, to the point you were making, Ryan,
how silly it is. They're not just voting on this,
and it seems as though they're not voting on it
because of the President not wanting to continue giving an
inch an inch an inch and fearing that they'll eventually
have to give up a mile and do even more
disclosures from the Department of Justice.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Right. Yeah, Trump clearly told Johnson don't vote on this.
Speaker 6 (23:45):
Voting would make it all easier. But Trump don't care,
even cynically. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
So the other thing they're going they're doing is bringing
gallinne Maxwell out. Yes, you can put up so they're
they're they're inviting her to testify Talus like, Hey, actually,
are you and your dad massad agents Massad says you're not,
so I don't know, so so Glaine Maxwell's attorney David
Marcus told cen end quote, I can confirm that we
(24:11):
are in discussions with the government and that Glaine will
always testify truthfully. We are grateful to President Trump for
his commitment to uncovering the truth in this case.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Unquote.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
So it is likely that we'll get to hear from
Glaine if she makes it to the to the hearing,
So that'll be now what like, Okay, if she says
she's not Massad, do we then just wrap this up?
Speaker 5 (24:37):
But that's the thing like this story, it's actually really
good for people in power in a sense like it
it's constructed in such a way, or it exists in
such a way that it's the sprawling network of different
threads that you can keep pulling on to distract from
never pulling on the big thread that unravels everything. And
so you can say, Okay, we're going to go talk
(24:58):
to Glaine, and you can run out the cop by
saying we're pulling on this thread and then taking a
really long time to pull it, and then you never
actually have to deal with everything.
Speaker 6 (25:06):
So it's actually not the worst.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
Scandal in the world to have to deal with from
like a purely public relations perspective, because it's so sprawling
that you can say that you'll never exhaust new angles
to say that you're looking into basically, and it's so
easy to run out the clock and delay. So, I mean,
that's probably what the next.
Speaker 6 (25:24):
Three years of the Trump administration looks like.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
So, in order to talk about more about like what
Epstein's life in prison was like and the end of
his life was like, let's bring in Martin Gottisfeld, a
former inmate from MCC. So one thing that's missing from
the coverage of the Jeffrey Epstein scandal is the voices
of people who served in the Metropolitan Correctional Center with
(25:51):
him or near the time that he did where he
met his end. And so to try to rectify that
now by journalists ACTVI was and former MCC inmate Martin Gottisfelder.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Marty, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 8 (26:08):
Well, problem Ryan, thank you for having me.
Speaker 4 (26:10):
So to set the stage here, can you talk about
the time that you served inside the MCC and how
that relates to Jeffrey Epstein's time there.
Speaker 8 (26:23):
Okay, So, I was there from November twenty sixteen to
early February twenty seventeen. Epstein died there about two and
a half years after I left. But at the time
I arrived at mcc Epstein had not yet been there.
El Chapo had not yet been held there, and the
facility was really kind of flying under the radar. People
really weren't aware of it, even though that attorneys and
(26:47):
prisoners had been active trying to reform the facility for
a long time. The facility was already dilapidated, the staff
were already out of control. Disaster was very clearly on
the horizon. Anyone could see it. But at the time
I was a contributor for a huff Post. You were
my editor there, and we published, you know, quite a
bit about the facility before it rose to national prominence,
(27:07):
and so we were really kind of like the early
warning system that you know, something was very likely to
happen here.
Speaker 5 (27:13):
All right.
Speaker 4 (27:13):
And so one of Epstein's to tell us about your
connection to one of Epstein's cellmates.
Speaker 8 (27:21):
So Epstein's, I understand, was Epstein's first cell mate, Nick
tartag Leone I was in the shoe on g Tier.
So that the shoes got like different palls. They're called
tears wherever you can have cells, right, and like G
tier in that shoe is like the most elite. It's
where the high profile guys tend to go. And so
(27:43):
I was already on G tier when tartag leone came in,
like was arrested fresh off the street. Had never seen
a jail cell from the inside before. He was a cop,
so he had seen lock up, but it had never
actually experienced it for himself. And then you know, I
understand that Nick was not Epstein's set at the time
of the death. I think that's important to underside here, right.
Speaker 4 (28:07):
Yeah, so what can you tell us about the way
that the cameras work?
Speaker 8 (28:11):
And I can tell you a lot.
Speaker 6 (28:13):
And we have this on a five.
Speaker 5 (28:14):
By the way, we can loop this. This is this
is the video that Pambondi released. And Martin, you've certainly
seen this by now. It's obviously, as Wired has said,
spice together, it's missing a second. And now people are
actually saying, right in three seconds, so three minutes.
Speaker 8 (28:31):
Three minutes, sorry, yeah, And they tried to explain away
one minute as like a nightly system was reboot. But
then there's apparently two other minutes. I should I should
add I've not double checked the digital forensics on this myself.
One thing, given my background, The government alleges I'm a
hacker with anonymous and that I uh single handly orchestrated
one of the largest cyber attacks the government ever seen.
(28:52):
So I just have to say, I've not double checked
the digital forensics on this. So I'm going off of
what what Wired brot. To my understanding, there's no meaningful contradiction,
like no one's come forward with an alternative theory or whatever.
But I'm not I can't personally vouch for you know,
there's digital forensics on the files, but I mean that's
a view from another tier. And so the tiers are
(29:15):
stacked like one on top of another, and they're in
different like arms shooting off from the main area in
the shoe, and you can see the officers station there
from visible from that tier. But obviously there's no cell doors, right,
and so this doesn't really make a lot of sense.
The video is not particularly useful for anything. And in
that shoe, just so you guys know, because this is
(29:36):
something that's that's not been covered, there's a camera in
every cell and on G tier there's a cam. There's
two cameras in every cell, and the problem is that
guys cover them up right, Like you're trying to use
the bathroom, there's a camera pointing at you, like, what
are you going to do? You cover the camera up, right,
And so pretty much at any given time in the
occupied cell, in that shoe, the camera's covered. Now that's
(29:59):
again it's policy, but the facility, I mean, what are
they going to do send a team to every single
cell every single day to uncover these cameras because the
guys that just cover them back up. Again. You also
though expect that they would have cameras in the hallway,
that we would have a camera that's facing Epstein's cell door, right,
and there's no explanation given for why that tape is
(30:20):
missing or you know, what happened to that camera, And
they're trying to say that the cameras weren't working, the
DVR system had problems with the hard drives. All this, Okay.
In the floor above that shoot is the ten South
Special Administrative Measures Unit. Okay, this is national security stuff.
This is like where the nine to eleven guys were held.
These are the guys who don't even get attorney client privilege,
(30:41):
even their attorney client meetings, their visits with their attorney
are listened in on by DOJ. Right, this is the
highest of high security, and they're saying that, you know,
the floor right below it that someone could use to
access the ten South unit had no working cameras or
the drive. You're bad. Epstein died a month two months
(31:03):
after l Chapo left. It's it strikes me as very
unlikely the cameras would be allowed to get into that position,
and very scary if in fact they were.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
So what what what's your sense of, you know, knowing
people who kind of come in and out of that place,
what's your sense of whether or not he would have
been in a state of mind to have given up
on his his defense like you've seen other white collar
criminals come and go, do they Because one argument is
(31:38):
this guy's he felt like his life was over and
so that's a reason why he would just take his life.
You know, he had this high flying life, jets, mansion, partying,
the elites, and now all of a sudden he's here.
So it makes sense that he would just be like,
you know what, I'm out of here, I cannot take.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
This abrupt shift.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
What what's your read on knowing other people who've gone
through that situation.
Speaker 8 (32:05):
Firstly, obviously can't comment to his particular state of mind
or his mental health, right, I can say that that
generally speaking, I have two problems with the narrative that
he took his own life. The first is that, you know,
any good attorney would have told him that he's got
two things that are very important going for him. First,
(32:26):
he's got the money to retain a vigorous defense team. Right.
And this can really matter because, like I put this
in my write up, you only need look as far
as Sean P.
Speaker 5 (32:35):
Di D.
Speaker 8 (32:36):
Combs, right, who just beat federal sex trafficking charges in
the same courthouse, brought by the same prosecutors who are
going after Epstein. Right, He had a big legal team.
He did it. You know, if you read the media
and the press, you would have thought he was done for.
But you know, he had the money for the lawyers,
and they squeaked it out, right, So I don't really
(32:57):
buy it. And you know, Sean, you know he didn't
hang it. He didn't kill himself. It's called hanging it
up in prison parlance. But he didn't do it right,
facing a very similar racket in the same courthouse. They
actually held him in a different, slightly different facility, but
it's also very poor conditions. It's the ADX Max Shoe
in Brooklyn, and I've also done time there. I've done
time in the shoe where Pitt he was and at
(33:19):
the time where Epstein was, so you know what I mean, like,
he didn't hang it up. And then as to the
second thing, is that Epstein was in the position potentially
to cut a deal, either with the Trump administration or
with some future administration. He had no shortage of people
that he could have informed on. Right. And there's actually
(33:39):
a federal rule of criminal procedure, it's Rull thirty five
b right where the government can the court can depart downward,
can give a much lighter sentence. It can give a
sentence lower than the statutory minimum. So even if he
was facing, like say, a statutory minimum of ten years,
the court could go below that statutory minimum if he
had provided substantial assistance aecuting another individual right. And so
(34:02):
the guys that you think of in prison as being
desperate enough to take their own lives are generally the ones, right,
who's all their boys have figured them out? Right, everyone's
rd it on them. They have no one left to
sell out for a deal, right, That's the guy who's,
in my opinion, the very large suicidirist. And you know,
here's the other thing too. Epstein was a Wall Street
(34:24):
quant right. And if you do any game theory study,
you hear about the prisoner's dilemma, which is basically the
question of you know, do you rat someone else out
in jail? That's one of the core exercises in game theory.
I'm sure Epstein was familiar with it. It would be
very unlikely in my mind that he would not have
heard of the prisoner's dilemma. And so you know, I've
got these problems with the narrative.
Speaker 4 (34:46):
And from your understanding of the layout of the jail,
does the footage that we have cover all the ways
in and out or are there would there have been
other ways that people could move around?
Speaker 8 (35:00):
So the footage doesn't even show the main entrance to
the shoe. That camera does not even show the main
interest to the shoe. The main entrance to that shoe
actually has written above it, or had written above it.
When I was there America's strongest shoe. It says that
right as you walk into that ship, right, So if
it showed the front door, that's what it would show.
This is the footage from some ancillary tier that is.
(35:22):
And again it's like it's built with this like central
region where you have like a little law library cage,
and you have like the officer station, and then there
are hallways shooting off in different directions, and they're stacked
one on top of the other, so you'll have like
G tier above H tier right, like J tier above
I tier right, and they shoot off in all these
different directions. The narration of the footage that I've seen
(35:43):
shows that Epstein's tier was somewhere off way to the
right of the footage that's been released, right, And there
should be another tier camera like the camera that you're
seeing here, right. It's recording to people walking onto a tier,
the entrance of which is below the camera, right, So
anyone comes onto this tier has to cross this camera
to be seen. There should be a camera just like
(36:04):
that on the tier when Epstein's cell actually was, But
we've not seen footage from that camera.
Speaker 6 (36:10):
And so are there other things?
Speaker 5 (36:12):
As you've thought about this for years now about the
facility that people don't know, like that you wouldn't know
if you were just sort of a member of the public.
That influenced the way you see the allegation that Jeffrey
Epstein killed himself, Like, are there things going on there
that make you see this story differently than if you've
(36:34):
never stepped foot inside the shoe people would see it.
Speaker 8 (36:38):
I think mostly the stuff that I've gone over, I mean,
obviously knowing the facility itself and having experienced the staff,
you know, and you can this is all public record.
I published it back in twenty sixteen and twenty seventeen
at huff Post and shadow Proof, and we dropped an
article at The Intercept I think in twenty eighteen or
twenty nineteen, right, So you know it's all out there.
(37:00):
But you know, I sued over this facility. I filed
in federal court because of the conditions there. So yeah,
I mean it is it is. I will say that
it is a place where people can feel particularly desperate,
especially in the winter or the summer, because you freeze
in the winter and you boil in the summer in
that shoe. There's no air conditioning. The heat is insufficient.
(37:22):
You know, I had leaky water. There's cockroaches and rodents
and everything in this shoe. You have to like put
something under your in the gap under your cell door
so stuff doesn't come in at night, you know. So
that I mean, I can see how someone could potentially
get somewhat desperate. But again, you know, you have all
these guys who are facing like frankly worse situations, who
(37:45):
don't have the money for the attorneys, who have their
friends fingering them, and they don't commit suicide. They don't
die by suicide. About three or four dozen guys were
on death row, sentenced to die for really heinous crimes
right on the day that the Biden administration announced the
commutation of their death sentences. Right, none of those guys
(38:07):
had killed themselves, can't.
Speaker 6 (38:09):
That's also about the guards.
Speaker 5 (38:10):
You just mentioned that, and that's part of the story
is that the guards just who were subsequently fired, just
were they were distracted, they were sleep.
Speaker 6 (38:19):
They just missed what was happening.
Speaker 5 (38:21):
That also is an element that it seems insane to
a lay person, and maybe it is insane, But what
have you made of that?
Speaker 11 (38:29):
So when I was there, you had a couple of
CEOs who were good, a whole mess that were lazy,
and some of that were outright malicious.
Speaker 8 (38:40):
And that's pretty much the mix wherever you go in
the Bureau of Prisons, in the US Federal Bureau of Prisons,
it's going to be that way and pretty much any facility.
You know, certainly they're supposed to do half hour rounds
in any shoe. So a shoe is a special housing
unit and SHU and it's pronounced like, you know, like
footwear at shoe. But there's certain rules in the shoe,
(39:01):
and they're supposed to be the same wherever you go
in the federal prison system, right, and so they're supposed
to do these half hour rounds. You know, we haven't
seen camera footage that definitively answers one way or the
other whether those rounds were done, but we're told that
they were not done, and that you know, there has
been this long period, you know, before anyone had gotten
to them. I find that realistic from my time there,
(39:24):
because you pay attention. You hear when the guards are
coming on rounds, and they definitely did miss rounds more than.
Speaker 4 (39:30):
Yeah, I would I would think, yeah, that that part
actually did square for me too, just knowing people, uh,
in the middle of the night, like if you can
get away with staying in your chair and and you
know closing your eyes and sleeping, you're probably going to
do it. So so that that that that part of.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Me kind of did track that.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
In the army, they call it pencil whipping when you're
told to like, you know, go go make sure all
of these you know, hum v's have like oil as
you know, sufficient amount of oil and it and you
instead you don't do it, and you just check off
that you did it. Like that's actually pretty standard bureaucratic laziness.
Speaker 8 (40:08):
I mean again, you see it in the Bureau of
Prisons everywhere. But you know, there were a couple of
CEOs there was. There was one his name was Ortiz,
and he would make his rounds every half hour and
you'd see it from the light because you know, the
light's off in the hallway at night, right, so you
can see the flashlight like coming and going. And I
was up late writing a lot. I took five hundred
pages of notes in that shoe because Rolling Stone it
(40:31):
asked me to, you know, write down everything for a
piece that they were working on about my case. So
I have five hundred pages of notes, day and timestamp
about everything that happened in that shoe. And yeah, so
there were a couple who were diligent. I'm not trying
to throw everyone under the bus, but you know, for
the most part lazy and some outright malicious.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (40:52):
Yes, if people want to learn more about it, I
would encourage they go google. Martin god is telling you
looked up puff Post or Intercept for his you know,
his piece on the conditions at MCC and then also
his story on serving alongside Choppo's. That's a pretty pretty
interesting one that people can go find if they want to.
Speaker 8 (41:12):
Well, for a minimum security guy, for a guide who
was supposedly minimum security, you know the whole time.
Speaker 4 (41:18):
Yes, indeed, Well, Marty, thanks so much for joining us,
very much appreciate it, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 5 (41:26):
The Bravo worthy feud between Hunter Biden and the pod
Save America hosts rages on, and not surprisingly, here's Tommy
Veeder yesterday and actually John love it as well, reacting
to some of Hunter Biden's comments about them on Andrew
Callahan Show just the other day.
Speaker 6 (41:45):
Let's roll the clip.
Speaker 12 (41:46):
You were on the board of barisma because of who
your dad is, and that is what people hate about Washington,
and it was part of the problem. And like there's
some other weird shit, like he said he blames the
debate on his the Biden's staff, saying they gave him
ambient on his foreign trip. But like Biden got back
from the g seven on June fourteenth, the debate with
(42:08):
June twenty.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Seventh, a fucking ambient.
Speaker 12 (42:10):
If ambient was the issue, Like, I don't think it's ambient,
it's a age, Like he was tired, so they gave
him ambient also, like just like allow me to rent
one more second. Like his big beef is that Republicans
stick together and Democrats are united, but he's obsessed with
this show, obsessed with George Clooney. They don't talk about
Gaza until two hours and fifty minutes into the interview.
(42:31):
I'm guessing that that was the bigger threat to party
unity than a George Clooney off ed. You know what
I mean. It's just this sense of entitlement that like
from Biden, from his family, from the inner circle, that
he was like owed the presidency, owed a second term.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
It's just very fucking grading.
Speaker 13 (42:49):
That Hunter Biden throughout Joe Biden's presidency was a terrible
liability for him, and put the addiction aside. It is
because he was on Barisma, because he became an artist,
because he was part of a kind of like sleazy
Washington that, as Tommy said, people hated you were a liability.
You should be ashamed of the ways in which you
(43:10):
made your father's political life worse. And like the idea
that we're going to listen to you now, like give
me a fucking break's ridiculous.
Speaker 5 (43:17):
So you may remember that Hunter Biden actually really was
cooking Ryan when he slammed the Pod Save America host
for basically being guys hold up in multimillion dollar mansions
in La Yeah and Beverly Hills and then giving the
Democratic Party advice based on their time in the Obama
White House, you know, at least ten years ago at
(43:39):
this point, and saying this is how the Democratic Party
can like recapture the hearts and minds of the American people.
Speaker 6 (43:47):
Hunter's kind of right, and they're kind of right.
Speaker 4 (43:49):
Yeah, Hunter's definitely right. On the other hand, who is
Hunter Biden.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
To be talking about.
Speaker 6 (43:55):
It's incredible.
Speaker 4 (43:56):
He goes on and on about all of these people
who he says have insignificant life accomplishments, including James Carville
and David Axelrod. By the way, if all you ever
do in your life is get a president elected, that's
you actually accomplished a pretty significant amount, but without asking,
without looking inward and being like, oh wait, I'm Hunter Biden.
I was born on third base and I just got
(44:19):
tagged out, like standing off the bag. So you know,
while his brother, you know, was you know, governor of
Delaware and was possibly on his way to being president.
I think if he, if he had not gotten killed
by the burn pits in Iraq. So anyway, let's let's
hear a little bit more of Hunter Biden's griping, particularly
(44:42):
about Clooney and some mothers.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
He's not a big fan of Clooney.
Speaker 5 (44:46):
And this is not on Callahan show. This is from
So it's actually.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
He's been making the rounds.
Speaker 5 (44:51):
Yes, well, he's done two podcasts stops. So the first
one was his good friend Jamie Harrison's new podcast that
is being pitched in all seriousness as like a real
effort to reconnect with the American people, to connect with
the American people. Yeah, Wygle made that joke in his
Hemaphore exclusive like debuting the podcast, and it actually isn't.
(45:13):
Like you can tell Jamie Harrison thinks that's what this
podcast is, and anyone who's funding it.
Speaker 6 (45:17):
Thinks that's what this podcast is.
Speaker 5 (45:18):
But Jamie Harrison didn't like have any idea how to
promote his Newsy conversation with Hunter Biden, So like nobody
discovered what he said to Jamie Harrison until after he
was going on that he had said anything like interesting
on Jamie Harrett, all the good stuff. Yeah, yeah, So
here's Hunter Biden with Jamie Harrison on George Clooney.
Speaker 14 (45:39):
The President of the United States didn't know who the
actor was. They had written him in his staff I
don't know ten five six four letters, text, texting the
staff over and over again.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
And he's going to pull out.
Speaker 14 (45:53):
He's going to embarrass the administration, he's going tombarrass the
Democratic Party. He's going to pull out of the biggest
fundraiser because he disrespected his wife. Because you don't agree
with the policy as it relates to an arrest warrant
for Nettnago. Whether that's right or wrong, I don't give
a shit. That's good for the party. I'm not saying
he's not a good Democrat. I'm not saying that he's
not smart. I'm not saying that he's not a brilliant actor.
I'm not saying that he's not a good friend to
(46:14):
the friends that he's friends to. But in that moment, no,
he wasn't and he didn't do the right thing. And
to say something that is so patently untrue in order
to justify what you did afterwards is cowardly.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Yep, is weak.
Speaker 6 (46:31):
He's also right that George Clooney was kind of cowardly.
Speaker 5 (46:34):
He wrote that New York Times up ed not until
after Joe Biden had his debate crash and burn, right
when Clooney said.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
It was pretty like it was pretty close, right.
Speaker 6 (46:45):
Yeah, yeah, it was a couple of weeks.
Speaker 5 (46:47):
Yeah, but Clooney, and this is i think reported out
in the Tapa Thompson book. People at that LA fundraiser
were really apparently kind of shocked by Biden's state.
Speaker 4 (46:59):
And if you remember it was televised like it was
a huge, one of the biggest fundraisers ever. We covered
it afterwards is when he so there were there's video
footage of it where he like wanders off the stage
and Obama has to like grab him, And that was
one of the times that.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
They called it a cheap thing.
Speaker 4 (47:17):
So it wasn't just Clooney that Now Clooney had the
interaction where Biden's aid was like, sir, this is George Clooney,
George who was George Hunt?
Speaker 1 (47:26):
And that's when Clooney is like, what now?
Speaker 4 (47:28):
What Hunter Biden is referring to there is that a
Mall Clooney is an advisor to the International Criminal Court,
and Biden was threatening sanctions on anybody involved with the ICC,
which would mean that perhaps the Mall Clooney would be
barred from the country and would have her like bank
accounts frozen and couldn't do financial transactions. So Hunters saying
(47:50):
that Clooney actually had an ax to grind.
Speaker 6 (47:52):
There, which is crazy. I mean, that's a huge shit.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
Also, it's like, Biden, what are you doing.
Speaker 4 (47:57):
Yeah, choosing the side of this war criminal who's going
who's trying to cost you the election? And you're going
to sanction a Mall Clooney over this. Get a grip.
Speaker 5 (48:11):
It's such a crazy set of circumstances that Hunter Biden
is casually revealing on his podcast appearance.
Speaker 4 (48:19):
But that's also crystal flag that he took credit for
Leonard Peltier's commutation. I asked somebody who was involved with that,
and they said, it is a fact that at that
last minute commutation was done with the family. So that's
a credible We can confirm that that's a credible claim,
at least from Hunter Biden.
Speaker 5 (48:39):
I mean, he went pretty deep with Callahan on Leonard Peltier.
Speaker 4 (48:44):
So yeah, and to overcome Biden's instinctive hostility to somebody
like Peltier, who was convicted of killing two FBI agents,
it must have taken somebody like Hunter to overcome that.
Speaker 5 (48:56):
So I actually i'm did you did you watch the
whole Andrew cow Hanna Interviews three hours long? It was
I think you actually really like it, to be honest,
because his I found his comments on narcotics and addiction
to be really interesting.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
Well, he's a smart, charming guy.
Speaker 6 (49:12):
He's very smart.
Speaker 5 (49:13):
He's obviously beyond messed up and in like the most
tragic ways, and some of which he's aware of, others
of which he's not aware of at all. But I
was thinking about yesterday, like there's this part of him
right now. That's the jokes about him being the new
Joe Rogan. There's it's funny because it's actually he's kind
of like the new Trump in the sense that Trump.
(49:37):
The reason that people are making this joke about Hunter
being the new Joe Rogan is because he comes out
and laughably, of course, flames the dumb establishment and positions
himself as a victim of elites. Him and his family
is a victim of scheming elites who just couldn't wait
to get rid of his dad, which is obviously not true.
Speaker 6 (49:56):
But he's flaming the political establishment.
Speaker 5 (49:58):
He's flaming elites in a way that Jamie Harrison sure
as hell isn't going to do, none of these influencers,
Harry Sisson, sure as hell isn't going to do. That's
why they got rid of David Hogg. And that's the
thing that that Hunter Biden is doing that Trump forced
Republicans do to do in twenty fifteen sixteen. He went
out there. He wasn't scared to criticize Fox News. He
(50:19):
wasn't like, ooh, I won't get on Fox News, or
oh Potze of America will go after me if I
say something mean about them, and Hunter Biden's kind of
forcing them to reckon with the reality that people want
to hear you flaming establishment, the establishment right now, and
that's the best way to get traction.
Speaker 4 (50:37):
I don't want it to take away from his art career,
but I Hunter should do a podcast, right And with Hunter,
there's so many pun names you can come up with
for a podcast. Yeah, but yeah, Hunter, I mean the
right should love him. He loves guns, he loves liberty, freedom.
Speaker 5 (50:53):
I think the sad thing is he doesn't actually love guns,
not not frying, not anymore. No, maybe sober Hunter and
love guns as much as addict Hunter.
Speaker 4 (51:02):
But yeah, three hour conversations with Hunter and like whoever.
Speaker 5 (51:06):
Just about Leonard Peltier, Like I'd listen three hours from
Hunter Biden on Leonard Peltier
Speaker 1 (51:11):
Getting on there, Like with the Nelk Boys, that was
wild
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