How Ambitious Women Can Find (and Keep) True Love ft. Francesca Hogi & Spicy Mari [Washday Woosah]

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Same with you invest in your career, you should be
investing in your love life, because it's not something that
you just look up one day and now you're rich.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
It's the same thing with love, he.

Speaker 3 (00:12):
Va Fam, it's your girl, Mandy Money. I am so
so happy to be here with these two beautiful exquisites, stunning, accomplished,
badass women in the studio. We have never done a
show like this, ba Fam. And maybe it's because sometimes
when you're in your relationship and like it's so challenging,
sometimes talking about relationships is like the last thing you
want to do. But it just felt like the right time.

(00:36):
Ever since I saw one of my guests today, ever
since I saw the title of her book, how to
Find True Love by Francesca Hogey, who's here with me today,
that concept, that the simplicity of the preposition, the simplicity
of the concept for that book, it just really it
really struck me, and I was a little bit afraid

(00:56):
to even ask myself that question. Why am while I
am a full married woman and be a fan. I
know that we represent the broad spectrum of partnership. Whether
you are writing solo at this time, you're newly separated,
you are looking for love, you're in a relationship and
you know the saying it, and you're planning your escape
route like I really wanted to have a show like,

(01:19):
so I asked Francesca to come on the show, and
then I got the opportunity to also have the Michelle
the Kelly to r d to our I'm making myself
fiance here that's real rich and we have a Spicy
Mody in the house. Spicy Mody is also a relationship
expert on Relationship Coach. You also host a Netflix show

(01:40):
which I'm I'm blinking on right now. Please help the girl.
Sneaklings on netflixels ooh a little messy and we love that.
So I want to pause there and just have y'all
do a quick little introduction. To be a fan, I've
already given them your name, Francesc. You got your book
How to Find True Love, Spicy Money. You're on Sneakilings,
But tell us a little bit about your journey to
becoming a relationship experts and then what your approaches and

(02:02):
what you love most about the work that you do. Conchessica,
do you want to start sure? Thanks for that wonderful introduction.

Speaker 4 (02:09):
Beyonce and you are Beyonce here. So for me, I mean,
so I used to be a corporate lawyer in my
previous career, but I'm somebody who I call myself. I
was a romantic child, like I just grew up like
really just wanting love, like wanting passion, like couldn't wait

(02:33):
till I was like old enough to like fall in love.

Speaker 3 (02:35):
And like I used to read like, you.

Speaker 4 (02:39):
Know, romance novels that were way too old for me,
and I'd be like, I can't wait to do this.
But I also had just a lot of challenges honestly,
just around like being seen romantically, like receiving romantic attention.
And so I found myself as a young lawyer like Okay,
I really want relationships. I really want a boyfriend, but

(03:01):
like I do not know how to make that happen.
And so long before I knew that, you know, like
dating coaching or relationship coaching was a thing, because this
was a million years ago, because I'm middle aged, I
was like, Okay, well I just got to figure this out.
And so I started on this journey of teaching myself
how to date.

Speaker 3 (03:20):
And so I went on match dot com.

Speaker 4 (03:22):
You know, back in the day when that was like
you prayed that nobody saw you like this is way
before dating apps. And I went on a bunch of
dates and I learned a lot of things, and then
I was like, oh, okay, wait, now I know how
to do this.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
And so I wound up starting a dating.

Speaker 4 (03:37):
Advice blog back when I was still a lawyer, just
because I saw so many other people struggling with things
that I used to struggle with. And then I wound
up finding out about matchmaking as a profession. And I
met a woman at a Fourth of July barbecue who
told me about Paul C.

Speaker 3 (03:53):
Brunson, who is.

Speaker 4 (03:54):
A black male matchmaker now expertly. He's actually he has
a Netflix show also called Sheet, and he's on a
bunch of shows. He's like, you know, doing a bunch
of things now. But at the time I was like, wait,
there's a black male matchmaker. Who is this person? And
I want to follow him? And so I started following him,
and through him, I learned that there was a matchmaking
institute and I was like, what, there's a matchmaking institute

(04:17):
And there was a conference and I went to this
conference and I met all of these people who were
just regular people whose job it was to help other people.

Speaker 3 (04:24):
Find love, and I was like, what could be more
rewarding than that?

Speaker 4 (04:28):
So I went to matchmaking school and I became a
matchmaker And that was thirteen.

Speaker 3 (04:32):
Years making school, the match speaking Institute. Oh what secrets
are in there? Were you? Okay, I have a couple.
I know I'm going to get to spicy too, But
I was just thinking, like, at what point do you
feel like, Okay, I've got this on lock. Now I'm

(04:55):
ready to help others? Like did you feel like you
needed to reach a certain level of relationship success before
you could be a matchmaker or does that even matter?
You know? I didn't feel that way.

Speaker 4 (05:07):
I mean when I started matchmaking, I was in a relationship,
but it wasn't like I was in my you know,
forever partnership. But I really felt like, first of all,
I had already matchmade people, just like that was something
that I'd already done. Like one of my best friends
her husband I introduced, I introduced her to So it's
something that I already just naturally like meddled in other
people's love lives. So there's kind of the thing about

(05:29):
matchmaking is because it is about making introductions and it's
a little bit like all right.

Speaker 3 (05:34):
Well there you go, like good luck everybody, you know, like.

Speaker 4 (05:39):
I've introduced you, now you know, now I have at it.
But actually, that's one of the reasons why over time
I switched from matchmaking and coaching is because I realized
that with matchmaking, giving people what they say that they
want isn't necessarily what they need and isn't necessarily going
to actually give them the relationship ship that they actually want.

(06:01):
And so that actually caused me to start to go
a lot deeper into like, Okay, well, how do you
actually determine what you need in a relationship, and how
do you figure out who is and who isn't a
good match for you? And how can you break your
patterns of maybe being attracted to people in dynamics that
don't serve you. And so I became very obsessed with
all of that, which is why I became a coach
instead of a matchmaker, because I think it's more important

(06:24):
for people to be their own matchmaker, honestly, and to
be able to do that work for themselves.

Speaker 3 (06:29):
Well, that's a really nice distinction because it's like anyone
can get on match you can match yourself or what
is it now, tender bumble, all that, but to actually
have the coaching and that you know, and not just
your girlfriends, you know, at dinner with their own drama,
their own trauma baggage, but to have someone kind of
hold your hand during the whole process. Okay, spicy, spicy mody.

(06:51):
I keep wanting to say spicy margarita, but I'm not
going to do that.

Speaker 1 (06:54):
We can have those too. I'm always down for one
of those origin story and you know, snaps to Francesca.
I agree with everything that she's saying. My origins or
became very young. So at a very young age, five
six years old, single parent home, I felt like I
was too good to be in a single parent home.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
I deserved a daddy.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
So I made it my mission to go up to
every single man and set my mom up and pitch
her and I as a package.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
Right, Like, I'm a cute little girl.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
She's a pretty mom, she knows how to cook, and
my mom was married three times. My mom saw like
my passion for relationships and then it was an obsession
for me, and she's like, okay, let me steer this
so that you aren't so dependent on a relationship or
a partner. But I early on saw the benefits of it.
Right when Mom was in relationship, she was happier, she
was more giving. I was in trouble less. We had

(07:46):
more resources. By resources, I mean toys, and so these
men used to go through the process of like taking
us both out on dates, and I too saw the
benefits of the romance and just how the courtship process
looked early. But then wanted that education with it, which
my mom really reinforced. She was like, yes, relationships are great,

(08:06):
go to school though, So went to UC Berkeley and
went for communication, then went to USC and communication as well,
and in the interim part was giving like relationship advice
on a radio show Spicy Tips, and decided that there's
a method to this madness in my master's program and
really deep dove into the Spicy method, which is spicy

(08:29):
self passion, intimacy, communication, and learning to say yes, those
are the ingredients that you need for a healthy relationship,
and so juggling setting up of course.

Speaker 2 (08:39):
Friends, family members, and clients.

Speaker 1 (08:42):
Really started to focus on the Spicy Life program because
that is where it all begins. In order to help
you become the best version of yourself. And attract your
purpose mate, which is the person who's supposed to elevate
you the purpose, the person who's supposed to support your purpose,
and how you serve the kingdom and help others. My
entire focus became, Okay, how do I help you become

(09:03):
more magnetic? How do I help you choose the best
partner so that you don't have to go through divorce
after divorce and you don't have a child who's looking
up like where's my daddy? Why don't I have a
two parent home? So my mom's theory is that she
is the root of the spicy life, spicy Mama, and
that every couple that I tried to match or set up,
or every client that I try to coach, I'm really healing.

Speaker 2 (09:24):
My child's self through these couples.

Speaker 1 (09:27):
But I have gone through all the seasons, all the
phases and challenges of relationship. And it wasn't until I
actually like applied my tools to like really hones in on, Okay,
what does it take that I started to take even
my own personal life extremely seriously when it came to
relationships and discovered the strategies within it.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
That there's coding, there's strategies.

Speaker 1 (09:48):
Dating as a skill, but then also guiding the male
psyche is extremely important as well, and so of course
matched myself. My husband will say, well, I never needed
a matchmaker, and I'm like, oh, what do you think
I was doing, honey. So so it's the whole essence
of yes, yes, sir, this was your idea.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
Of course I had nothing to do with it. You
just wanted to me purely. You make the decision on
your own.

Speaker 1 (10:08):
So there is a method to the madness and I
absolutely love it and want every single person to have
their purpose mat the way that I do.

Speaker 3 (10:16):
Purposemate. All Right, so I'm thinking about BA Fam and
just for y'all, I know I love BA FAM. I
know I know our audience so well. BA Fam is
between twenty five to forty five. We have very ambitious women. Obviously,
it's in the title of our show. We are wanting,
We're not waiting for a relationship or a purposemate, to

(10:36):
create financial security and financial independence. A lot of our
listeners want to create side businesses or have a full business.
You know, they're working into five and they are very
intentional about studying and learning and seeking out wisdom. In
that sense, where does that journey align with seeking out

(10:57):
a partner, because I kind of feel like we're in
this date right now now where it feels like either
or like I'm going to focus on my all on
just creating my own financial security and then when I
have it all together, then I can find a partner.
What advice do y'all have for women are who are
striving for that? And we love that ba fam passion,
But what advice do you'all have for them? And also
carving out time to find partnership in the midst of that,

(11:20):
you know, before they have it all together.

Speaker 1 (11:22):
We think that you have to compartmentalize and separate the
two and you should literally be doing the same way
that you invest in your career, you should be investing
in your love life because it's not something that you
just look up one day and now you're rich.

Speaker 2 (11:34):
It's the same thing with love.

Speaker 1 (11:35):
Okay, So if you're not intentional about juggling, bok, cause
I'm not going to say it's about balance, it's about juggling.
Like I'm going to intentionally do one thing a day
for my career, I'm also going to intentionally do one
thing a day to connect with men, to connect it
with love and so whether that's you pouring into a
little bit of self love and juggling that with Okay,
do I need to swipe today? Do I need to
sit in that message? Do I need to go to
the park and look someone in the eyes and introduce myself.

(11:56):
You need to be doing one thing a day to
connect because you literally have to learn in real time
managing both. Because if you think that one day you're
just going to look up and your partner's going to
be there, and you've been so prioritized on your career
that now you're going to know how to manage your
time to navigate between your masculine network and you're feminine
you know at home. It is a practice. It is

(12:17):
a skill set that you have to do. And as women,
we are required to pivot. Okay, not so much men.
They don't lean into their feminine energy usually until we
pull that out of them. But for us, society demands
it from us, Our relationships demand it from us. That
we have to get really good at doing the dance
between our masculine and feminine and juggling between those two
and so managing relationship plus career, you've got to do

(12:39):
both at the same time, especially if you want both
to enjoy at the same time.

Speaker 3 (12:45):
That is such a difficult proposition. It's something that I
struggle with all the time. We're baddies, like we get
we make money. I'm a breadwinner. I don't bend the
bread winner. Since Dan got my relationship, part of me
thinks that was a bit of why was even attracted
to my relationship with my partner, is like there's space
for me to be that. You know, there's a lot

(13:05):
of power in that. But at the same time, it's like, oh,
I done forgot how to be solved And what even
is feminine energy? Francesca, does that? Like does that jib
with like your thoughts as well? The idea that you know,
there's this tug of the masculine energy and then the
feminine energy and relationships and like having to learn how
to switch it on and off.

Speaker 4 (13:25):
This is such a good question, and this is a
really important conversation because we all three work with ambitious
women who are about their business and about you know,
living their best lives. And I think that I completely
agree with you, Matty, like.

Speaker 3 (13:43):
We cannot we can't compartmentalize love and think like.

Speaker 4 (13:46):
Okay, I'm just going to keep it in this little bucket,
and when everything else in my life is perfect, that's
when I'm going to open myself up to it. I
think that's really missing the point. I think that we
are all on a love journey, and the purpose of
this journey is for to learn how to be more loving,
how to give more love, and how to receive more love.
And what I see a lot with women who are

(14:06):
in that mindset of like, no, I'm building my career,
I'm focused on my business. It's like, yeah, but you're
also kind of it's a little bit like saying like
I'm going to care about my health when I'm when
I'm more successful, or I'm going to care about my
friendships or my family relationships when I'm more successful, Like like,
what do you mean? No, Like this is all important, right,
And so I one hundred percent agree with what Marty

(14:29):
was saying about, Like this is a being about skills. Right, So,
if you were not practicing the skill of being vulnerable,
of allowing yourself to receive romantic attention, you know, of
having the confidence to give that attention to someone else, Right,
if you don't have the skill of communication, of learning
how to be a great partner, because that's the thing
about dating. And one of the reasons why I really

(14:52):
I resonate so much more with coaching than with matchmaking
is because the point of dating is not just to
meet someone. I mean, that's yes, but so for you
to actually learn the skills to be a great partner. Right,
So if you just don't ever put any work or
effort or thought into what that means for you, and
then you think that when somebody great shows up, that
suddenly it's all going to magically work out.

Speaker 2 (15:13):
You know.

Speaker 4 (15:13):
That's that fantasy view of love that we've been sold
our whole lives. But that sets so many people up
for failure in relationships because then you're in a relationship.
Now you're triggered. Now you don't know how to communicate.
Now you don't know how to compromise. Now you don't
know how to have boundaries. I think, you know, that's
another thing. I think that for a lot of you know,
women who feel like I have to wait, I have
to wait, is because they think that being in a

(15:34):
relationship means that you lose yourself. They think that being
in a relationship means that you don't get to still
prioritize your passions. Right, They think that being in a
relationship means that now that there is no time to
work on.

Speaker 3 (15:45):
Your business or that. But who said that, right?

Speaker 4 (15:47):
And so I think we as modern women, we have
more power and freedom than any other generation in history
to have the lives that we want, and that includes
the love that we want. Oh, I am a very
big believer, Like even if you're like, okay in this
season of my life, because we all have to know
ourselves and you all have to know like, Okay, like
right now, I am doing this thing and this is

(16:09):
my focus. And maybe that's not dating, maybe that's not
meeting someone. That's fine, But I encourage people like, don't
get so far away from that intention for romantic partnership
that you then aren't planting the seeds within yourself so
that you can actually have the love that you want.
And so I just think that more women need to
balance it. So as for like the masculine feminine, I

(16:31):
think that could be a very helpful framework for some
women to think about, like, Okay, where am I Where
am I able to be more giving? Where am I
able to receive? Because actually receiving is like really the
big thing. Right, we tend to have a lot more
trouble receiving than giving.

Speaker 3 (16:47):
So that's the other thing. Do you mean women of color,
like black women, or women in general?

Speaker 4 (16:52):
I think women in general. I think women in general.
I think especially in relationships, because if you just think
about all of the narratives that women get about out
what the role is of a woman in a relationship,
it's like, you know, you gotta you gotta take care
of your man. You gotta like be you know, sexually
available to him all the time. You gotta make sure

(17:13):
he's fed, you gotta make sure he's happy. You got
to make sure that he feels like a man. And
because if he doesn't do that, he's going to go
find somebody else who does. Like, there's a lot of
pressure that's put on women to do and to you know,
to really be the caretaker in our relationships and so
and it's not that we aren't that, but we also
deserve to receive, right, And so that balance is something

(17:34):
that I think we have more power than ever to
really navigate for ourselves. But yeah, it's it's it's it's complicated.
And one last thing I will just say, the reason
I don't really in my work. I don't really use
like masculine and feminine energy so much only because I
see how that can lead to a lot of performance.
Because then it's like, oh, well, I say this because

(17:55):
that's like me being feminine, and it's like, well, but actually,
can't you just tap into yourself and just be yourself
and be balanced in your ability to give and to
receive versus feel like I have to perform femininity in
this particular way or a man has to perform masculinity
in this particular way.

Speaker 3 (18:13):
I think that can get a little murky, you know.
While you're talking, I'm also thinking about how I have
said on the show before, and I've spoken to so
many really accomplished women who've earned millions and they've iPod
and they'll come on this show and you'll see like
a softening of them because obviously, like you know, I
am a woman of color, this is our safe space.
And how I've encouraged women to even bring their feminine

(18:35):
energy to the workplace and like to give yourself permission
like to be. And when I said when I say
feminine energy, I mean our our nurturing nature, our communication
skills are listening I think that those traits, there was
a time when those traits were like out of fashion
and look down upon in corporate spaces, and you wanted
to really like be in your masculine because that was

(18:57):
the norm. And I love the idea of more women
and of women in positions of power embracing that part
of because I think it makes us such good leaders
and makes the workplaces that we run, you know, such
incredible places to be where you really everyone can be
happier and thrive. And and but I feel like because

(19:18):
of the stigma against you know, femininity and being soft
in the workplace, that that has created, like it's we
put on this persona when we go into the workplace,
and that can be hard sometimes to turn off. But
if we just like give ourselves permission to be a
bit more soft and be our nurturing our nature and

(19:39):
not everyone is the same, right, but to tap into
our core as essential self both at work and at home,
we may find a bit more happiness and just more peace.
That's many problems.

Speaker 2 (19:51):
Let me add on to this.

Speaker 1 (19:52):
I do think that based on everyone right growing up
in different environments, already being genetically predisposed to certain responses,
learning different communication skills that us as women in the
dating place, do need to understand visually and also emotionally

(20:14):
and mentally right when we are tapping into a certain
way of making somebody else feel how they're experiencing us.
And I think that masculine feminine energy is a great
way to understand not just who you are and how
you show up or maybe what you were exposed to
and who you would like to become, but also understanding
how to dance with men, understanding that when he shows

(20:35):
up like this, I respond this way and I like that,
or when I lean into this energy, it doesn't get
me the goal accomplished that I want. And so I
think that for my main clientele, which is like the
extremely powerful woman who has everything that she wants in
life except for the love, it's important that they also
understand that in relationship and in your romantic life, dating

(20:59):
is important and relationships are important because just like in
the workplace, you're going to have to ask for what
you want at home, when it comes to men, you
are still going to have to ask for what you
want because they don't lean into their feminine energy as much.
So they're not intuitive. Okay, they aren't thinking about how
can they care for us all day long and how
they can make our day better from the moment that

(21:20):
they wake up, where that may come naturally to us,
but we have to also get into the practice of asking,
how am I going to guide this person to learn
the things that I want and it to come effortlessly
to them if I'm not communicating my needs and getting
real comfortable with communicating my needs right, getting in the
habit and practice of getting what I want because it

(21:41):
doesn't just come automatically for somebody else to serve us.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
And so, when you're in a.

Speaker 1 (21:45):
Space where you are very goal oriented and driven and it's.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
About work, work, work, work, work, and career.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
While I love all the accolades, you aren't in the
habit of advocating for yourself when it comes to relationship
and teaching and guiding someone. When you're focused on just career,
you get permission to just be selfish. But when you
are in relationship, you actually are required to serve. Both
of you guys are required to serve. But how do
I get him to submit to me? What does that
look like? How do I tap into that energy? And

(22:13):
if you don't guide a man's emotions. You have no
power over the man because he is in the relationship
with you based on how you make him feel about himself.
So if you don't know how to motivate him, if
you haven't practiced the skill set of understanding how to
guide a man's energy. But that's what you want, and
you say that's your focus, but you haven't practiced that,
it's going to be extremely challenging later when you add

(22:36):
another element, let's say family, to the mix.

Speaker 3 (22:38):
Are you saying that are part of a healthy dynamic
and relationship is understanding how to manage your man's emotions,
your partner's emotions.

Speaker 2 (22:51):
How do I manage my energy? First? How do I
manage their energy?

Speaker 3 (22:54):
Second?

Speaker 1 (22:54):
So, whether it's a friendship, whether it's your mama, whether
it's your child, whether it's your man, how do I
manage my energy in this moment so I can guide
your energy to get whatever it is accomplished that I'm
trying to get. Whether it's I want affection, whether I
want a hot date, whether I want you to step
up to the plate be more protective of me, whatever
that thing is, whether I want you to throw the trash,

(23:15):
How do I manage my energy first, so then I
can manage your energy next.

Speaker 3 (23:20):
I think, okay, I'm understanding that. It reminds me of
that book Come As You Are by Emily Nagasaki. I
think that's her name, really cool book, and in that
she talks about like the break and the accelerator, and
a woman versus a man, or a partner versus partner,
and how there's certain ways you can come at a person,
but if they haven't been like if they're in a

(23:41):
mindset or in an emotion mind where they're not ready
to do the thing that you want them to do.
Like let's say it's sex, or let's say it's taking
out the trashes are two very different things. One of
them is for play taking out the trash. I was
gonna say, are they so different? I'm going to turn
the compost for you, Oh, baby, like talk their to me.

(24:01):
So But there is this idea that I just can't
come in and be like, I need you to I
need you to do better at this. I need you
to like you know, I need you to read with
our son at night. I need you to like be
involved more by the way. I needs you to rub
my back later and not complain about it. I need
you to know what my coffee order is when it's
hot outside versus when it's cold, and versus when it's raining,
because they're different for all the environments. It's about not

(24:24):
expecting that to just happen on demand. But there's things
that I can start doing the minute I wake up,
to manage to like I don't like the word manage
as much, but I understand it, like to guide the
feeling in him to where he's going to be more
conducive to doing those things later. And if it comes
from both ways, both directions, if he's also thinking about
me and how I'm feeling, baby like that to me
just sounds like that's the vibe I want to be on.

(24:46):
We aren't not on that vibe right now, but I
would like to.

Speaker 2 (24:49):
Get to your point.

Speaker 1 (24:50):
We are all trapped in this illusion of how it's
supposed to feel. Well, it doesn't feel romantic and it
doesn't feel authentic if he doesn't just do it on
his own. Naturally, we think that if I have to
tell you what I want for my birthday, it's not
as meaningful and special. I care more about the goal.
Did I get the bag?

Speaker 2 (25:08):
Okay? Because if I.

Speaker 1 (25:09):
Got the bag, and I had to tell you and
send you the link to the bag that I wanted
because you weren't going to get the YSL bag that
I wanted. Am I still happy at the end? We
can't be so much trapped in the process of well,
what is.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
The experience that I'm having? In order to get my goal.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
Achieved, I need you to get to a to Z
because I got a business to run. So either we're
going to make me happy and I'm gonna be in
charge of my happiness and help facilitate you being a
part of it.

Speaker 2 (25:34):
But I'm not going to.

Speaker 1 (25:35):
Leave my entire happiness and experience up to you. And
that actually takes practice because that's not what we were taught.
We were taught that it's not love unless the person
isn't obsessed with us twenty four seven thinking how they
can make.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
Our day better.

Speaker 3 (25:49):
So I'm I totally agree. I hear what both of
you are saying.

Speaker 4 (25:53):
I'm a little bit different, and also I should say
I do not have children, and I think that the
both of you, in your real relationships, you're not just
navigating being with your partner, You're also navigating raising children.
And that's a whole other ball of wax. I am
a believer in communicating needs. However, I'm also for me,

(26:14):
I'm more focused on are you with somebody? Because I
because I personally and like, I don't have the emotional
bandwidth to like teach a man how to like have feelings.
Like I'm like, that's not my job, you know what
I'm saying, Like I don't want to take that on.

Speaker 2 (26:30):
And I'm curiousity who was supposed to teach him?

Speaker 3 (26:33):
Well?

Speaker 4 (26:33):
Well, see, I think, I mean, I think, and you
know you said this before. I think everybody has different
you know, we all have different you know, backgrounds and
experiences and you know, and I'm very fortunate because I
had a father who was he was a caretaker and
he was protective, and he worked hard and he supported
his family. But he also called my mother beautiful and

(26:54):
rubbed her feet and mopped the whole and vacuum the
whole house every weekend so she didn't have to do
that heavy lifting. And I also had my older brother,
you know, it was also like very protective, very loving.
So to me, I'm like, just fine.

Speaker 1 (27:07):
Men should just come like that, just come like that.
I think that all of us feel like men should
just come like that. That's the thing, though, is that
we all want one. So it's a small percentage that
are actually like like your father in the sense of
maybe emotionally available to their children, right, maybe teaching their
son how to love properly. And so I am of

(27:28):
the belief that, well, you want a relationship with this person,
but maybe he didn't grow up with Mancesca's father.

Speaker 2 (27:34):
How are we going to make this work?

Speaker 1 (27:35):
And there is going to have to be some work
on our end that us as women were like, well,
we don't want to do it. We just want him
to come prepackaged, but we're also not prepackaged. And maybe
the communication aspect or maybe the you know, respect aspect,
we're all working on something. I think though, that we
have a huge population of men though that are only

(27:55):
as good as their exes taught them. Okay, so if
they did grow up like you, oh my god, that's
a blessing. But a lot did not, right, So that
population that did not, what are we to do with them?
And if we still want relationship with them, because we're
still going to be in a situationship or we're still
going to hook up with like what are we going
to do in order to guide them there to that

(28:16):
emotional availability, to that intelligence. How are we going to
educate them on how to show up in love for us?
Because it's really the woman who brings it out of them.
Men are not going to the homies, are not going
to help them so much become these vulnerable creatures for us,
And if their exes did not train them properly. Now
you have, you know, a man in your hands who
you know you're attracted to, but he doesn't know how

(28:38):
to serve you the way that you want to be served.
And so it's not so much about us only getting
that population of twenty percent that are emotionally available. It's like, okay, well,
how do we change this is a culture. How do
we change and guide these men? Because we're not going
to see I don't think before our day's end, the
shift of one hundred percent equality, the shift of them

(29:01):
being as equal emotionally to.

Speaker 2 (29:03):
Us as we are. So there's going to be some
work on our end, as really it's going to be
some work on our end.

Speaker 3 (29:08):
No, I agree, And there is no perfection.

Speaker 4 (29:10):
And even if you have two people who were so
open and emotionally available, and mature, Like, there's still going
to be you know, the art of relationships is communication, right,
so there's always going to be that navigation. But I
guess what I see is, especially a lot of Black women,
I see a lot of women who are they are
giving their all to men who are so incapable, incapable

(29:32):
of being the kind of.

Speaker 3 (29:33):
Partner that they deserve.

Speaker 4 (29:35):
Correct that I just want to be careful, Like I
don't want to say, well, just hang in there, girl,
you just got to teach them, because I'm like, I say,
you actually just need to find somebody who's like, you're dope.
I'm ready to show up for you.

Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (29:46):
Right, I'm excited about moving things forward with you. I
see how amazing you are. I mean, you know, even
going back to the whole career thing, I mean my
previous relationship that was seven years long. In the relationship
that I'm in now, which is only relatively new actually
because I had a very eventful year last year while
I was ready. But I but I feel like, you know,

(30:12):
I could not have built my business if I didn't
have my partner because and it's not and it just
because of the support and just of the love and
just knowing like I have this safe space that I
can go and I can you know. I was just
I was, you know, I had this book that just
came out, and I just had this melt down recently
with my boyfriend because I was like, I'm writing so hard,
you know, and I just like cried for like two

(30:33):
hours and he just like held me and encouraged me
and like told me how you know, Like, and I'm like,
that's just there are men who do that, right, And
so I want women to not feel like I have
to just always be trying to pull out of somebody
like the ability to like love me and to show
me support, because there are men who will do that.
And I think ultimately this comes down to what is

(30:56):
our relationship with ourselves and what is our actual belief
in our deservingness of having somebody who takes care of you,
who shows up for you, right, But that's the person
who you are, who even if he's not perfect, because
nobody is. Even if he's not perfect, like, he still
is trying, like he wants to do better, right, And
I just think so many women get they just they

(31:18):
just spend so much of their precious I agree with
emotion energy I agree with you trying to get somebody
to do better.

Speaker 3 (31:25):
Who's like, that's not there are somebody better, but he's
got to want to be better too.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
To your point, for Jessica, because one thousand percent agree
with it, we will stay longer than we should. We
will waste time. But that's why I think that we
should be testing for it.

Speaker 3 (31:39):
Right.

Speaker 1 (31:39):
If you don't have the practice of understanding how to
guide him, does he respond to my guidance? If this
person isn't guideable, I need to get out.

Speaker 3 (31:47):
I wanted to make that and I'm so glad you
made that connection because I was sitting connect I'm like, yes,
I think there's such great points, But it's about the timing.
It's like, you need to demonstrate in the first few
months to a year of dating me that you are
that you are willing to learn, learn, grow, be influenced, change,
give me what I need. You're figuring out what someone needs.
And maybe maybe you didn't grow up in a household

(32:07):
where the man mopped the floors or carried a lot
of some of the emotional weight of managing relationships in
the family and all that, But are you willing to learn?
Are you willing to push yourself in that direction. And
I think you can figure that out early when you're dating,
and then you're killed in that relationship. And I think
there's signs that we miss that we ignore.

Speaker 1 (32:26):
I think that that's what we have to understand as women.
I trained with the Gotmans and one of the things
that they speak highly on is a woman's power of influence.
If a man cannot be influenced by her, she has
no power. And so that's where we need to wake up.

Speaker 4 (32:41):
And I agree, and I think when it comes to dating,
the way that I talk about this is like you
want to see and we're being so heteronormative here, So
anybody who's like not straight, I see you and I
acknowledge you, and everything that I'm saying to me actually
applies to everyone, which is when you're dating somebody and
early dating, I'm like, if somebody is not an early

(33:03):
dating able to like meet you where you are, and
that's how I think of it, right, So even like
like like a take a common scenario, somebody matches with
somebody on a dating app or maybe you meet them
in person, and now you're texting buddies, right, And now
you're texting and they're texting you good morning, beautiful, how's
your day?

Speaker 3 (33:20):
And you and you have this.

Speaker 4 (33:21):
Whole like superficial non relationship, like this texting relationship, and
when people they'll be like, oh god, it's just like
why does he just keep sending me this? And I'm like, well,
do something about that, like don't just respond to those
messages every day, like say like, hey, you know, what
if you actually like if you if you want to
get to know me, if you want you know, if
you want to move things forward, if you want to

(33:42):
get like let me know, like you just put the
ball in his court. And that to me is like Okay,
who can meet you there? Who can be like okay, yes,
Like I'd love to take you out? What time you know,
when are you available? What is your weekend looking like?

Speaker 3 (33:52):
What? Like That's what I'm looking for.

Speaker 4 (33:54):
And I want people to like feel empowered to say,
like I don't just have to go along with the
just how it is or how this other person is behaving.
I actually am co creating this dynamic because that's the thing.
And I think in dating and Mary, tell me what
you think about this, But I think so many people
are so focused on I want somebody who checks all

(34:15):
these boxes and they just are so focused on the
other person that they're not actually thinking about but what
happens when we come together?

Speaker 3 (34:23):
What are we co creating together?

Speaker 4 (34:25):
Because that relationship that the two of you are going
to have is its own entity.

Speaker 3 (34:29):
It's a brand new dynamic. It's never existed before.

Speaker 4 (34:32):
And if you are from the very beginning just like, well,
I'm just going to sit here and hope that you know,
they read my mind and hope that they step up
like that's not what are you doing? You know, you're
setting yourself up for not great success in my long term.
In my opinion, when you think.

Speaker 1 (34:46):
Mar I think that it's extremely important that you always
check in with self.

Speaker 3 (34:52):
Right.

Speaker 1 (34:52):
So even in so that's like to start with the
first communication piece that you said, right, I don't like
the way that this guy is messaging and he hasn't.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
Asked me out yet.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
I know you aren't as heavy as differentiating between the
masculine and feminine, but the masculine will say this is
you know, this is wasting my time. If you're not
that into me and you're not taking me out, I
gotta go. What I practice is the feminine, which is
what is the language that he needs to hear to
get what I want? So I really enjoy speing with you.
It is so stimulating. I would love for us to

(35:20):
take this to you know, maybe a FaceTime and potentially
see if the energy match is there. Once we establish that,
then we can move them to Oh, I really loved this.
I would love to see you in person. You know
we had a great connection. It is it's in the
language that we use that makes them feel good about themselves.
But also checking in with well, when I do this,

(35:40):
how does he make me feel about me? Do I
like how he is responding to me? If I don't
like how I because I know I'm coming with it
because I have the skill. But if he's not showing
up and reinforcing the great juju that I'm giving, then I.

Speaker 2 (35:53):
Know it's not a good fit.

Speaker 1 (35:54):
And then the second element is I'm a huge advocate
for something that I created called the Pizza qualities. Is
the crust that you believe makes him a good person. Okay,
if this these are the five core values that you
have and his character doesn't align with those five core
values of the crust, then we can't move on to
the sauce, because the sauce is what are the five
qualities of what I need to feel loved?

Speaker 2 (36:17):
Right? I know how I give love.

Speaker 1 (36:18):
These are these five qualities, But how do I need
to experience it from him?

Speaker 2 (36:22):
What is the treatment?

Speaker 1 (36:23):
Because if he can't come through with the treatment, I
don't care if he checks off all the good person things. Now,
the treatment is what actually helps you, guys to be involved,
to do the dance together, to show his interest and
his pursuit. And then the last five or the toppings, Well,
what do I need to be sexually attracted and take
my clothes off for him? Because the toppings are always negotiable? Right,
if he comes with the crust and the sauce, you're

(36:43):
gonna want to be naked for him.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
So what are those things? And I think that we
have missed it.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
I think we're like, well, we need him to earn this,
and we need him to be this, and we need
him to you know, take.

Speaker 2 (36:53):
Me out on ten dates before you know.

Speaker 1 (36:55):
Like, there's so much noise out there about relationships and
not coming from people like you and I Francesco, who
have studied this, who have practiced this, who have implemented this,
who have tested it on clients, and the Internet is
telling people twenty thousand different things about what to do,
coming from people who it's not their purpose. It is
not their purpose.

Speaker 2 (37:15):
They are not.

Speaker 1 (37:16):
Walking and listening to God's voice. When they're giving you
that information, they're speaking from wounds. They're speaking from sometimes
because I'm spiritual. Sometimes it's the enemy. They don't want
us in healthy relationship. They're just venting. They grabbed a
mic and they're venting. But they're not guiding us to love.
And that's Sart's one of most when within the feminine,
I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
We are the masters of love.

Speaker 1 (37:35):
We are the masters of love, and if we're not
tapping into it, then that's also going to have a
ricochet effect on our men. But no, we don't stay
longer than we should. We test for it all the time.

Speaker 3 (37:44):
What are some early relationship green flags for y'all, Like
if you're seeing these things from the beginning, even if
it seems like a fixer upper, Because I always equate
dating to kind of like looking for investment properties. You're
not going to get everything you want in one house,
but what has got good bones? What can we work with?

Speaker 1 (38:01):
I always test for a problem solver, whether I'm presenting
to you a challenge that I'm having at work, or
I need this fixed, or I don't know what I'm
going to do about you know this flat sire, or
I don't you know know how to fix this bookshelf.
Does he lean in and say I got you okay,
or I'm gonna hire someone to do it for you.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
I prefer him to do it himself.

Speaker 1 (38:23):
But as long as it gets fixed, handyman is very
attractive because that shows, you know, his ability to build.
It shows the masculine men or you know, extreme builders.
If he doesn't want to build with me or for me,
then he's not going to actually invest.

Speaker 3 (38:36):
In me later.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
And so to me if he's like, oh my gosh,
I'm so sorry to experience that, like you know, what
are you going to do about? Like to me, it's
the it's the problem solving mode because I don't want
to work that hard.

Speaker 2 (38:48):
I don't want to live a hard life. I want
to live a spicy life. Jessica, what about you?

Speaker 3 (38:56):
I definitely agree. I agree with that.

Speaker 4 (38:58):
Like somebody who is a problem somebody who is proactive
generally so proactive about getting to know you, proactive about
spending time with you. I mean, the thing that makes
me crazy is when people and again I'll just go
back to this heterodynamic membor not here, you know, like
when when women are like doing all they can to
try to get this guy to ask them out again,

(39:20):
and I'm like, if he's not, if there's not the enthusiasm,
if there's not the like actual proactive drive of like, yes,
I want to spend time with you. I want to
get to know you better. I care about what it
is that you care about. Like those are the things
that I think are really great green flags. And I
also think that, you know, people who have personal responsibility, right, so,
people who take responsibility for their lives, for their choices,

(39:42):
like you know. So the opposite of that is somebody
who's blaming everybody for everybody else for all their problems.
Is their exes that terrible, everybody's terrible, everybody's out to
get them, you know. The opposite of that somebody who's like,
not that there isn't lots of nonsense that happens in
the world, but they are basic just feel empowered enough,
like I actually take responsibility for my actions. Because if

(40:05):
you are in a relationship with somebody who does not
take responsibility for their actions, you are going to suffer
for sure. So I'm really looking for that enthusiasm, that
proactivity and just like, okay, this is a responsible person
who actually because if you think about, like, if.

Speaker 3 (40:21):
You're looking for a life partner, do you.

Speaker 4 (40:24):
Want to be with somebody who doesn't know how to
pay a bill on time or you know, who doesn't
know how to like, you know, say I'm sorry, I'd
be like, yeah, actually I mess that up. I need
to do better, Like it's it's not going to be
such a happy relationship and who cares about you and
who's excited about you? Right, because that's the other thing
you don't want somebody to just be with you? Like
all right, well you're here.

Speaker 3 (40:44):
Do y'all have a favorite dating reality show other than Stiklings?
But do you have one? Because there's married a First Sight,
there's love is Blind, there's love Isoland. Like, do y'all
have a show that you kind of watch, like, you
know for funzies you enjoy.

Speaker 2 (41:01):
Love sneaky links and love is blind?

Speaker 3 (41:04):
You like love is blind?

Speaker 1 (41:05):
Okay, Okay, the concept of not being able to do this,
So it's the concept, right I love Scripted, though Scripted
has my heart, but the concept of reality and love
is blind of you not being able to see the
person and just experience them. To me, that is like, uh,
I love that because I do think that as a society,
we judge a book by its cover, and as much
as we judge a person based on the toppings, that

(41:28):
is not what makes a good.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
Husband or why.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
At the end of the day, the priorities is how
this person makes you feel, how this person helps you,
how this person you know, is aligned with your purpose.
While you do want to have sexual attraction, just the
concept of that show to me is so moving because honestly,
love is blind on dating apps right now until you
actually see the person in person.

Speaker 3 (41:51):
I just wish they wouldn't make you put a ring
on it. That's where they kill the people in that show.

Speaker 1 (41:55):
As production, you've got to have that thing at the end,
that is that like final moment of decision, you.

Speaker 3 (42:02):
Know, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was. I was.

Speaker 4 (42:06):
I have a reality dating show concept that I was.
I was partying with a production company and we were
starting to pitch it and everybody's like, but because it
was it was that like, it's not you're not at
the altar at the end, and they're like, but you know,
we need to raise the stakes. They gotta like, you know,
they want that that high stakes that you know, marriage
at the end.

Speaker 3 (42:24):
But I'm not a.

Speaker 4 (42:25):
Huge fan of these shows because they tend to I
have watched Love is Blind, and it stresses me out.
I just I just find it fascinating how much people project.
It's like, yeah, so they're not seeing each other, but
the way they say things to each other, like I'm
gonna make you happy, You're never gonna feel sad or
lonely ever again. I'm going to make sure that you
never feel And I'm like, this isn't people, this is

(42:48):
not reality, Like, this is not how relationships work. But
but my favorite of those shows is Love on the Spectrum.

Speaker 3 (42:57):
Why do you love Love Love on the Spectrum so much?
What is it about that? Because I've heard a lot
of people that's like their comfort watch. Yeah, because it's
the purity of it.

Speaker 4 (43:05):
It's really just like everybody in the show, like they
don't have any kind of like.

Speaker 3 (43:09):
There's no artifice, there's no duplicity.

Speaker 4 (43:12):
They're so open, they're so transparent, even to the point
like they'll be on a date and they're like, I'm
starting to feel overwhelmed. Like they'll say that to each
other and I would be like, okay, like do you
want me to I can stop looking at you? Or
do you want to go take a walk or like
and they're like okay. Like I'm like, it's like the
opposite of how those of us who aren't you know,
on the spectrum at least not that far on the spectrum,

(43:33):
because we're all on the spectrum somewhat. It's like it's
the opposite of how much of like just pretending and
like I'm going to say this thing or I'm going
to just like they just don't do that.

Speaker 3 (43:41):
They're just totally genuine you know, they're like.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
So you feeling you feel connected to their vulnerability and
they're honesty. Yeah, there is something extremely endearing about that,
especially when you're dating in real life. Though, Like, the
more that we can do that right, that we can say, hey,
this is how I feel, we can test work does
this person receive it right? Like? How does this person
handle my feelings? They how did they get how did
they respond to me? I think we need to do

(44:06):
more of that.

Speaker 3 (44:08):
There's this fear. You know, there's that show. I didn't
I wasn't obsessed with the show so much. But the
show with Kristen Bell and Homeboy from the OC where
they had you know, that's another Netflix show. What's it called.
It's called Nobody Wants This?

Speaker 2 (44:22):
Oh, she had to marry a Jewish?

Speaker 3 (44:25):
Was he Jewish? Yes? Yeah, yes, yeah, he's a rabbi.
But there was a part in that show that was
going viral. It's when he tells her you're not too
much for me, like you can be messy like this,
like it's not too much for me, and it was
what was so romantic about that? And like to what
y'all are speaking about? And as someone who's like god,

(44:46):
I have so many I think any woman who's like us,
who is like very resilient, ambitious, like exciting, like you
bring so much light and sparkle to people's lives, there's
something underneath that. There's pain, there's trauma, there's a story there,
and I think that that you know, and I'm healing
from a lot and I have been my whole life.
And like sometimes you're afraid to show or not afraid,

(45:08):
but sometimes you worry that if you show all that
side to yourself and you show the raw, the yucky
that you know, you show that early that the other
person won't be won't we'll be like, oh, that bitch
is crazy, or like that's too much for me. And
so that declaration of love but not love, but just
saying like you can show me these sides of yourself

(45:29):
and it's not too much for me. I wish of
that kind of love for so many more women, And like,
I would love y'all's perspective on whether it's neurodivergency, Like
if you're someone who's like I suffer from anxiety and depression,
there's a lot about my mental health I didn't know
about when I was twenty four dating my husband. I
didn't know how to like put a label on that.
But as soon as I did know, I was like, so,

(45:50):
here's what we talked about therapy today, and here's this
medication that I'm on. And like, kudos to him because
he was he was like, Okay, this is part of you.
I want to learn. But what advice do you all
have in relationships when you are maybe struggling with some
mental health or you know, some conditions that you have
and wanting to open up with your partner, but don't
want to be You're afraid of rejection is really what

(46:12):
it comes down to.

Speaker 2 (46:14):
So one, I love the movie that you mentioned.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
I love a great rom com, and I am obsessed
with vulnerability and intimacy. So the I in Spicy is intimacy.
When you are going to share information that's positive or negative,
right that maybe you're afraid of the judgment. I'm a
firm believer and this is going in the book what
you guys are have.

Speaker 2 (46:38):
Very much heard about. You test for can this person
handle my vulnerability?

Speaker 3 (46:42):
Right?

Speaker 2 (46:42):
That's fish and broccoli.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
When I give you this lighthearted, low stakes information that
gives the perception of vulnerability, how do you handle that?

Speaker 2 (46:53):
Because if you can't handle me telling.

Speaker 1 (46:54):
You about the death of my father and how that
affected me and we keep it light, then you're not
going to be able to handle when I tell you
that I didn't know him because he was in jail
for twelve years and when I met him, he died
from pneumonia because the hepatitis that he contracted in jail
that already messed up his lungs, and you know, his

(47:15):
family abandoned. Like when I get into the steak and potatoes.
You're gonna run because you haven't earned that high level
of intimacy to show me or prove to me that
you can handle the fish and broccoli. So we test
for first, how does this person respond to the light
fish and broccoli, And then if they respond well and
they are emotionally available or supportive in this interactive intimacy process,

(47:38):
then they can move on to steak and potatoes.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
And then here are the real like wounds of my heart.

Speaker 1 (47:43):
So I do think that there's you know, behind everything
that I do is clearly strategy, but we're tossing and receiving, okay,
And then we also test for a second step by saying, okay,
I shared with you, Now give it up, you share
it with me. Right, we talked questions back, I just
shared about something I experienced with my father. Have you

(48:05):
ever lost a loved one? And how did you handle that?
If they're not willing to share with you, right, they
responded what to maybe you said? But then the next
test is like, well will they give it back? Then
we're not going to be able to create your intimacy
because if I'm the only one giving vulnerability and you
may receive it.

Speaker 2 (48:21):
But you won't exchange it. We're at a deadlock.

Speaker 3 (48:24):
The way I had to claw my husband out of
his little cancer shell. I tell you, if he's a cancer,
I'm like, uh, is he all shell? No? Meed, I'm
just like. It makes you feel very lonely when the
other person is not coming toward you, and you know,

(48:46):
and they think that they're doing the right thing just
being a sounding we're just listening, but it's that sharing.
It's like the echoing of maybe I don't know what
you're going through, but here's something that I've gone through.
And when you don't have the emotional language or you're
not used to go in there and being introspective, it
creates loneliness that can be so like noxious or like

(49:07):
almost like a cancer that kind of spreads.

Speaker 4 (49:09):
And I think it's worse than being single. I mean,
if you're in a relationship with someone in you and
you don't feel like you have that emotional intimacy, oh
my god, that's so that's.

Speaker 3 (49:19):
The loneliest feeling in the world.

Speaker 4 (49:21):
I think in my definition of true love, which you know,
I really define that as about a relationship and a
relationship that has particular qualities and one of those is
emotional intimacy, you know, emotional intimacy as well as physical intimacy.
And I agree with Madi totally, Like if you're sharing
things with somebody and they're just like that's nice and
they're not giving you because we all got something, you know,

(49:45):
and they're not giving you anything in return, that's really
not a good sign. But I also will say I
want to call out I want to call out women
a little bit here, because there are a lot of
women who, even though they say they want an emotionally
vulnerable available man, their ability to actually handle that vulnerability
from men is very low. And that is something that

(50:07):
a lot of women need to work on and recognize
about myself, Like, like, oh, I liked him, but then
he started talking about his dad and this and that,
and then I started feeling like, oh.

Speaker 3 (50:16):
God, well are you gonna cry?

Speaker 4 (50:17):
Like I don't want to cry, you know, Like it's
like this like all this narrative around, like oh, I
don't want to see that, Like I want him to
be kind of like has some softness, but I don't want.

Speaker 3 (50:26):
To see that full vulnerability.

Speaker 4 (50:28):
And I think a lot of women have a tendency
to get turned off when a guy is like quote
too vulnerable and tell and shares a lot of things
that are that may be emotional, that may be difficult,
And so I think that women need to check themselves
on that and say like, Okay, well wait, what is
it about me that I don't feel like? You know,
I see him as less masculine perhaps because he showed me.

(50:49):
I mean, this is like we're all this whole masculine
feminine thing, like we're co creating this together. And if
you are somebody who equates being feminine with being in
touch with your emotions and being masculine with being shut
off from your emotions unless it's like anger or lust, basically,
what kind of relationship are you actually going to have?
So I think it needs to be Yes, you're looking

(51:11):
to see who can meet you there, but you're looking
to see what is my reaction when somebody actually does
show me that vulnerability. Can I receive it from someone else?

Speaker 3 (51:22):
Yeah? I think as a mom of two boys and
I always wanted a girl, I always thought like, this
would be great, I can have a girl, I can,
you know, And this is like my own stuff. I
think being a mom and being a parent is so egotistical.
Sometimes it's like, how can I heal myself through this baby?
But I was like, oh, with a girl, I can
really teach her how to love herself and I won't
make her feel other to her whole life and all that.

(51:44):
But then I don't have these boys, and I'm like,
what are you trying to tell me? Lord? What is
it about? What is it about me that? What is
it that these boys are trying to teach me? And
I think in a way, it's like creating emotionally available,
emotionally intelligent men who feel safe and who creates safe
spaces for others for their feelings, and who also know
how to get in touch with their feelings as well.

(52:07):
And I have hope for this generation of young boys.
I think that maybe like my husband's generation, like a
little bit, they're getting a little bit, but still have
so much work to do. And I feel like this
goes back to what you were saying in the beginning,
Spicy about like how we can take some ownership over
helping men, you know, reach certain emotional spaces. And I

(52:28):
think it starts as children, like in school in home.
You know, how are we cultivating these how are we
like cultivating this emotional depth and safety in young men
and so that they can grow up and again super heteronormative.
But hey, like, if we're talking about two men who
are in partnership, even all the more better both two

(52:48):
boys who were raised you know, But like, what are
some like what would y'all like to see us do
for young boys and men to help raise enter women,
to but men aspect boys especially to help raise them
into incredible partners so that it doesn't become the problem
of their future partner, to fix an unpack and get
down to the broken foundation and fix it for them.

Speaker 1 (53:10):
I think you're right about how we're managing this generation
because we have access to information and we're just so
much more aware and conscious of our effect because our
parents had a huge effect, right, Like all of those
own therapy now because of what our parents did. So
we're like, Okay, how can we get that therapy build
down for our children? I think it really begins with

(53:33):
us in the way that we teach them at a
young age. Intimacy and communication. How do I express how
I feel? How do I receive somebody else's feelings? And
really having these conversations early on with them, right.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
So it is very much.

Speaker 1 (53:51):
Having them have it with you, role playing, but then
also witnessing you do it in partnership. Right, So I
have a pack with my husband when we have a disagreement,
we cannot yell, but we can have a disagreement in
front of our child. But if we're going to have
a disagreement in front of him, he's also going to
see the repair. He's also going to hear you apologize
to me, or he's also going to hear mommy made

(54:13):
a mistake. So that that way he is seeing in
real time what it looks like for two people who
were emotionally charged to then regulate and then also heal
in real time their partner through a wound that was
just created. Right, And so now he's not as disruputees
like whoa, I just saw that dynamic. And then later

(54:34):
on he actually at three has circled back to the
discussion and been like, Daddy, I don't like the way
you talked to mommy earlier.

Speaker 2 (54:40):
Like holding my dad like his dad accountable too, how
he spokes about like yes, then that's beautiful.

Speaker 4 (54:46):
And I think just letting boys have emotions, right, I mean,
how many times are boys told by the time they're
like five, like no, no, no tears, like you're a
big boy, Like they don't want to hear it, you know,
and so like letting them cry, being physically affectionate with them,
you know. I mean that's another thing. So often if
you see how people they know they're affectionate with their daughters,

(55:08):
but with their sons, it's like this whole other thing
because it's like, no, he's got to be a man,
and he's got to be hard, he's.

Speaker 3 (55:13):
Got to be you know.

Speaker 4 (55:14):
And so I think we've reached the end of that.
We see how much that that's toxic masculinity, the idea
that to be masculine means that you don't have softness,
you don't have emotion, you don't have vulnerability, that you
don't desire affection. That's not sexual because as much as
men and people, we all love sex, right, but still
like if the only time your partner's touching you is

(55:37):
because they want to have sex with you, like that
doesn't feel great. Just as women, we don't only want
to be touched when when they're in the mood for sex.
What you think men don't want to be touched? Like
you think that they don't care about affection. You think
that they don't care about creating those safe spaces for them,
you know, to have that intimacy and that vulnerability.

Speaker 3 (55:54):
So I think that.

Speaker 4 (55:55):
Starts very young. I just saw on the other day
somebody pointed this out on social like you look at
little kids clothing. All the boys it's all like sharks
and dinosaurs and alligators, it's all predators, right, And the
girls it's like kittens and puppies and bunnies and butterflies
and you know. And so there's this idea again that's

(56:16):
just constantly being reinforced through how we are socializing children
that then grows up. So if a boy's never kept
permission to be vulnerable and that was always something that
was shamed or looked down on, then yeah, how do
you expect him to then be able to have true
emotional intimacy as an adult in a relationship? It's going
to be really, really, really hard, and not only do

(56:36):
their partners suffer, but they suffer. So how can we
start to see like being able to have access to
like your full spectrum of emotion and human experience, which
is hard. We notice that being a person is not easy.

Speaker 3 (56:53):
Yeah, you've noticed it takes every day to hold up
his brain. Yes, not easy.

Speaker 4 (57:01):
So how can we like think about how do we
equip each other with the tools so that we can
navigate it together, because we're not meant to do life.
And when I say we're not meant to do life alone,
I don't mean if you're single, that's terrible. I just
mean relationships in general, right, Like all of the love
in your life has value. Your friendships, your family relationships,
everything has value. And so yeah, I think we just

(57:22):
need to give all kids. But I think especially boys,
we need to make sure that they get that message.

Speaker 3 (57:28):
Yes, don't forget about the boys. Don't dismiss boys in
your life. Look at them, Hug them, squeeze them, let them.

Speaker 4 (57:34):
I don't have children, but I do have gods sons.
I have four of them, and I love them so
much and it makes me so happy because they're all
grown up.

Speaker 3 (57:40):
The last one just graduated. Congrat you, thank you.

Speaker 4 (57:44):
I know I'm like my babies, but I love the
fact that like they ask me for they ask me
for dating advice, Like when they like somebody I know
who they like, when they're dating somebody I know like,
And it makes me so happy, like and they know,
they're like okay, They're like they'll me to be like
can I call you? It's about a girl, And I'm like, yes, Jessica.

Speaker 2 (58:05):
You brought up something that I think is super crucial
that women.

Speaker 1 (58:09):
I'm just gonna focus on my way right now that women
need to understand when you said relationships, all relationships are important, right.
I think that we have this idea that when I
get the guy, that that becomes the primary focus, and
then when I get the kid, that becomes the primary focus.

Speaker 2 (58:26):
Versus being extremely.

Speaker 1 (58:27):
Intentional and mindful to pour into all my relationships continuously
as much as possible, right because like that first year
of having the baby, it's extremely hard. But how do
I nurture all of my relationships so that I'm not
heavily dependsent on one to fill my love cup?

Speaker 3 (58:42):
Right?

Speaker 1 (58:43):
Because maybe my husband always doesn't have it for me,
or maybe my son can't give it to me because
he's a daddy's boy, or you know, how what other
resources do I have to pour into my love cup
so that I can have it feel so that then
I can overflow into the other people in my life
Versus I'm going to focus on just one person and
now I'm you know, completely drained or I'm gonna, you know,

(59:04):
give it all away and now I'm drained.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
No, no, no, How can.

Speaker 1 (59:07):
These relationships pour back into me as well? I think
everything is really about being intentional. And you said like
co creating earlier? Okay, well, how does this person contribute
to co creating what I want my friendships to look like?
How does this person contribute to how I want my
love life to look? How does this son create, you know,
co create with me on what I want my parenting
experience to be. We're not going to knocket out the
park and get perfect, but if we're intentional about how

(59:30):
we want it to you know, feel Okay, well what
am I going to do on my end to help
us get there? Right?

Speaker 3 (59:35):
Like?

Speaker 1 (59:35):
I can only show up? Was so much energy? Okay,
now you've got to give some back. If you're not
giving it back, then I gotta move on to the
next person. So I think I think it just looks.
You know, we have to be very mindful of this,
and I think you lose yourself if you do not,
if you do not nurture all the relationships.

Speaker 3 (59:51):
Yeah, I think early dating red flag is a man
with no friends.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
Or a woman or a woman who she can't get
along with other women, and we're like, either to get
along with it's come on now, girl, we give love
so you can get one woman to love you.

Speaker 3 (01:00:09):
Well. I want to be mindful of time too, and
I just want to I'm thinking of the right way
to put a button on this, because there's obviously we
can go on for hours. We've talked about finding true love,
and we've talked a lot, honestly about you know, the
dynamics of a relationship, almost to the point where it's
like it's not so much. I think there's a lot
of focus on like where do you meet men and
like where how do you get But it's almost like
that's half the us. That's not even a whole battle.

(01:00:30):
The battle is once you're in that relationship. If y'all
could leave be a faan with some like parting advice
and wisdom on nurturing that seed of a relationship that
you want to last for the long term. Just whether
it's daily habits or annual habits or just what are
some things that happy relationships, happy couples are doing that

(01:00:51):
you would say to be a fan, consider doing that
as well if you want your relationship to stay nurtured
and healthy with the long haul.

Speaker 4 (01:00:59):
I think I think that making sure that you don't
lose yourself is really important.

Speaker 3 (01:01:03):
And so what is being asked of you in a season?
Like what is love?

Speaker 4 (01:01:08):
I mean this is a question that I you know,
I asked my clients and I sent my book, which
is like, what is love calling you to learn at
this time? And maybe it's calling you to learn, Oh,
I need to learn to be more vulnerable. Maybe I
need to learn to be a little bit more brave
and not so fearful of rejection because knowing that I
can handle it, Like if it doesn't work out, I'm

(01:01:28):
going to be okay. Maybe it's developing more self trust.
Maybe it's developing more ability to give to another person
to receive, like whatever it is for you, maybe it's
just like, oh, I actually don't have a lot of confidence.

Speaker 3 (01:01:40):
I don't have a lot of confidence.

Speaker 4 (01:01:41):
To know how how to pick the right person, or
how to meet people, or how to build relationships. So
what you're being called in the season is to learn
some skills that are going to serve you in the
long term. But I think in long term relationships, if
you and it's so easy to make it all about
your partner and like you're not made me happy and you're.

Speaker 3 (01:02:00):
Not doing this.

Speaker 4 (01:02:01):
But I think it's really important to just say, Okay,
well what am I doing to pour into my relationship
with myself? Because that's the blueprint, right, So, like, for instance,
you know, if you have a habit of being in
relationships with people who put you down or who diminish
your dreams, like that would only be tolerable to you
if that's something that you do within yourself, right, Because

(01:02:24):
I can tell you if somebody did that to me,
I'd be like you, I feel like that's hilarious that
you think I'm gonna be interested in you if you
don't support me. Right, But it wasn't always that case.
It wasn't always that way. But I have done enough
of understanding of like, Okay, how do I start to
treat myself with love? So I can normalize within myself

(01:02:45):
what do I want? What I want to experience with
other people? And so I think that's really ultimately, you know,
we are the center of our lives, and we are
our own portal and conduit of all of the love
that we're going to experience. So if we lose sight
of that and we make it all about other people,
then we're putting way too much pressure on our relationships

(01:03:07):
and we're also missing the point, which is about like
your growth in love. So I don't know if that
answers the question, but.

Speaker 3 (01:03:16):
That was a beautifully and here, Yeah, thank you for that.
It starts within, I wish. I mean, it's hard because
you're you're in relationships, you're meeting your match your twenties.
I was twenty four, biological clock is ticking. Sometimes, My
journey to self love probably didn't really heat up until
I was like thirty two, so like, and that's and

(01:03:36):
so you're trying to catch up sometimes with you catching
up to loving yourself, and then it's like, wait, now
I've cultivated these relationships that aren't in alignment with that,
and so then that that journey is its whole thing.
But that's such a word, and I hope you know
anyone who's listening is never too late to really just
like love yourself and learn more about yourself and put
that time into it.

Speaker 4 (01:03:54):
So and the twenties are so hard. Oh God, nobody
tells you how hard. The twenties are. I love the twenties.
I love the twenties. The twenties are also you couldn't
pay me to go back.

Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
The twenties were a time learn so much my twenties.

Speaker 1 (01:04:13):
If I were to leave folks with some advice, my
spicy tip would be, learn to fall in love with
what's good for you. Learn to eat your vegetables. I
think that we are addicted to candy. Okay, I think
that we're addicted to junk food. And if you don't
learn to love what's good for you, right, that is
what is it that I need versus well, this is
what I want right, just like with the diet, But

(01:04:35):
what does my body need? What is the nutrition that
I need to be digesting right now versus what do
I want that tastes good? Because later on we have
let's say, eating remorse or eating regret. Right, I shouldn't
ate that slice the cake. I knew that cake was gonna,
you know, be not good for me, and I did
it anyways. And it's the same thing when it comes
to relationships and dating. Like the red flags were there,

(01:04:56):
you decided to still devour him anyways. No, that this
person is not good for you, and it's bringing out
the worst in you. And so I think that when
we develop a healthy relationship with ourself, we will also
be able to be more selective and see it more
clearly in our decision making with others who is good
for us and who is not. But first we have

(01:05:16):
to fall in love with what is good for us,
and we need to be very intentional about that. So,
you know, I relate it to a swat.

Speaker 2 (01:05:24):
I give a swap. What are my strengths in relationship?
And how do I show up? What are my weaknesses?
What do I suck at? What are my wounds?

Speaker 1 (01:05:32):
What are my opportunities for growth? If I do this thing,
if I pour into this area more, how will I
develop in partnership and be more lovable to self therefore
lovable to others? And then what is the threat if
I don't, I'm going to end up alone for the
rest of my life? Am I going to continue to
date scumbags? Am I you know, just going to go
get inseminated? Whatever the thing is, you know, what is
the outcome? What is the threat if I don't do this,

(01:05:54):
If I don't start falling in love with what's good
for me? And so I think that that that is
where we begin for my ninety day program, the Spicy Life.

Speaker 2 (01:06:04):
Let's start there. I can help you guys with this
as well.

Speaker 3 (01:06:07):
Okay, now drop yeah, drop your What are we promoting.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
We're promoting Nikolinks on Netflix, Niki Leaks on Netflix, and
my ninety day program, the Spicy Life Program.

Speaker 2 (01:06:16):
So it really is a ninety day program where I.

Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
Teach you about self passion, intimacy, communication, and learning to
say yes. So I've kidnapped you for ninety days we're
doing with the coaching sessions, there's an entire curriculum where
I'm teaching the method, the skill set, and the formulas
around not just manifesting love, but really being intentional about
partnering with your purpose mate. And a lot of that
is around the psychology and behavioral science and emotional guidance

(01:06:41):
to partnership.

Speaker 2 (01:06:43):
Because we aren't educated in that area.

Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
We have done all the work to become successful to
pursue our careers. If we put that amount of intentional
education and energy around relationship, oh my god, this would
be a different world, right, This would be a completely
different world. So the Spicy Life ninety day Program and
then my podcast is Spicy Life.

Speaker 3 (01:07:02):
Where can we Where's the best place even website for
all this?

Speaker 1 (01:07:04):
Yeah, the Spicy spicylife dot com.

Speaker 3 (01:07:09):
Now, when did you have to buy that domain? I
thought there was some runchy stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
I bought the domain.

Speaker 1 (01:07:13):
Surprisingly it was available. I'm like, I guess it was available,
and I was like, oh, this is it's meant to be.

Speaker 3 (01:07:22):
Okay, spicylife dot comflict do in the show notes? Be
fam And what about you, mes, Francesca.

Speaker 4 (01:07:28):
Well, I have my new book, How to Find True Love,
available wherever you get your books or your audio books,
I mean for me. I also have a podcast it's
called Dear Franny. I have a course, a thirty day course.
It's called How to Date with Intention, and it's it's
really just a way to do some of the pre
work before you're even focusing on I want to meet
to what I want to meet to one But like

(01:07:49):
everything you just said, Maddie, like you know, we have
to learn how to fall in love with what is
good for us, right, And so a lot of the
work that I do is around that and helping people
to break patterns and to grow in ways that they
are attracted to something different than what they have then
in the past, because your.

Speaker 3 (01:08:04):
Attractions do change as you grow.

Speaker 4 (01:08:06):
And yeah, so I've got you know, lots of different
things of doing live events, teaching people about flirting, which
is something we haven't talked about, but I'm really passionate
about that. There's a lot of dating problems. People get
good at flirting, you know, and can effectively do that.
So I don't know when this podcast is coming out.
I do have a program coming out in August. It's
called Romantic Activation, and that's really for people who feel

(01:08:27):
just kind of like stuck in dormant and like they
don't feel you know, they don't feel love, confident, they
don't feel sexy, they don't feel connected to their mojo.

Speaker 3 (01:08:35):
And yeah, we're going to get you there. Okay, that's well,
be and when's that activation happening? So it actually starts
in like a week. Well, that's fine, you'll do more,
be a fan, we'll do well. I am just so
grateful NBA family. You don't even know. This is our
second try at this episode. We done had so many

(01:08:55):
critical issues of I don't even know what happened. It
was something, but I'm so grateful we got to chat more,
you know, getting to know y'all one on one. I
hope y'all collabse because I think y'all just are you.

Speaker 1 (01:09:04):
Know well friend already responded to some emails for me.
I've been picking this girl's brain. Yes, she's guiding me,
she's giving me all the like you know, she's a
girl's girl. And like I said her email, I was like,
I really appreciate this like she's and you too, Mancy.
Both of you guys gave me some gyms on how
to get a book published. So I'm so grateful for

(01:09:24):
you guys like you two are a manifestation of the
love that we want to spread, right, and so I
really appreciate your guys of even being trusting and vulnerable
with me. So thank you ladies so much, because I
was like, oh my god, you guys are such a resource.

Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
Thank you. Oh.

Speaker 3 (01:09:40):
Likewise, yeah, if there's ever anything I.

Speaker 2 (01:09:41):
Can do, you helped me with my brown ambition.

Speaker 3 (01:09:49):
I can't wait for that book to be coming out,
all right, bea fan. Please check the show notes speak
and find out how to connect with Spicy Moddy and Francesca,
get all their things, send up for all their programs,
will keep you tuned and please feedback is welcome. If
y'all want more relationship content from Brown Ambition, let me
know slide into my DMS. I'm at Brand Ambition Podcast
on ig or you can email me directly Brand Ambition

(01:10:10):
Podcast at gmail dot com. And until next time, we
will see you later BA fan bye

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Mandi Woodruff-Santos

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