August 17, 2025 • 51 mins
This week, BA fam—grab your coffee, get cozy, and let’s talk all things The Ghosts of Gwendolyn Montgomery, our official August/September book club pick! Mandi Woodruff-Santos sits down with none other than Clarence Haynes, author, publishing pro, and all-around NYC icon for a bold, joyful, and real convo packed with gems.
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Show recap:
- Mandi introduces Clarence and gets real about what inspired the Brown Ambition Book Club and her own book altar game.
- Clarence shares how the powerful women of NYC—and some serious Shirley Chisholm style—sparked his creation of Gwendolyn Montgomery.
- Dive deep into the book’s plot: a high-powered publicist with mystical secrets, a fashion event gone wild at the Brooklyn Museum, and a botanica in the South Bronx run by an Afro-Latine queer psychic
- Discussion on breaking generational trauma, mother wounds, fierce ambition, and why we’re all haunted by more than just ghosts.
- A real talk about dating as a queer Black man in NYC—Clarence gets candid on finding intimacy in the big city and the sometimes wild, sometimes isolating dating scene.
- The realities of Black-centered speculative fiction—why it matters and what hustle it takes to get these stories out there.
Follow Clarence on IG @clarenceahaynes
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
You know, the language is kind of saucy so a
lot of times, so it's a section with you, I know.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Yeah, that's why I chose it a little spicy.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
You're like my target reader. You're the person I wanted
to like create this book for, like powerful round black
women who are like just doing the thing and then
you know, being complex and crazy.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yes, I felt that. I felt like you were speaking
to me. All right, well let me kick off the show.
Welcome Brown Ambition. I am so excited to be joined
by the Clarence Haynes. He is the author of Brown
Ambition's official book club selection for August and September. Y'all,
(00:52):
I am so excited for y'all to read his book.
And it's called Ghosts of Gwendola Montgomery. I have fifty
eleven copies. This is the that I've been Gail King reading.
You know when Gail always comes out with the book
and it's got like seventy eleven little sticky notes in it.
That's my note taking copy. I also have one on display.
I told Clarence I made an altar to his book,
(01:13):
which is very on brand. We're going to get into
the book. It's all going to make sense. But Clarence,
welcome to the show. I'm so happy to have you here.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. I'm over
the moon. And thank you for your hospitality and the
altar and the coordination of all things. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
You're going to feel right at home. My dog's about
to start barking. I can feel her rumbling, so you
know it's all family here. Well, you're in New York, right,
We're both in New York, is that right.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I'm in a in Brooklyn and Clinton Hill. I grew
up in the Bronx.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
You have a voice for podcasting and radio before.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Thank you. Yeah. I can't say have done much voiceover work.
Have been in the performing arts. I've sung a bit
and okay, people have been so nice. People have been
asking me if I did the audio book, and it
would have been far too stressful, and people really here
for folks who are into audiobooks. Brittany Bradford and Andre Santana,
(02:16):
the two narrators, they did an amazing job.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
They did such a good job. I listened and I
listened to the book on audio. Because we're a working mom,
we don't have our hands free lots of times, and
narrators can make or break the audio book, and had
they not been so good, I probably would have had
to like put down the kids are gotten a babysitter
or something to read the hard copy. But they were phenomenal.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
The phenomenal They've already Audiophile Magazine. They already won an
award really yeah, for like outstanding narration. I forget the
exact language they're they're they're getting. I'm pretty sure like
end of year list they're going to be they're going
to be recognized because everyone their mama is just like wow.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
So and it's just a book that you made that
is now like lifting up careers and winning awards for
the girls who have not had a chance to pick
up the book yet, could you give us a quick
synopsis of what this book is about and what they
can expect.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Sure. So, the book, as people know it, is called
The Ghosts of Gwendolen Montgomery. It is about a high
powered New York publicist who has a secret, mystical past.
The title character her name is Gwendolen Montgomery. However, one
thing I can reveal her identity is constructed and so
(03:37):
as the story infurls, we begin to get more and
more intel about who she really is. She's basically coordinating
this really big fashion event at the Brooklyn Museum that
goes horribly wrong, and then that takes the story. The
story begins the boss arster role in terms of us
figuring out who is this character. She's also has a
(03:59):
mysterious connection to an Afro latinae queer psychic who runs
a botanica in the South Bronx. His name is Fonsie.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I'm Susie.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
He's in a bit of a mess. He's having a
love triangle between his ex, his toxic ex boyfriend Raphael,
and this mysterious ghost with which she's having.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Why are you giving everything away?
Speaker 1 (04:28):
And the big the big issue is he also comes
with a warning for us that ghosts are about to
invade the human world. And so there's there's also, again
I use a word mysterious, a mysterious connection between him
and Gwenda Montgomery. So that's that's it in a nutshell.
It's a way of I'm paying homage to New York City,
to my roots. My family here from Panama and I
(04:49):
grew up in the Bronx. I've pretty much lived in
New York most of my life, and so I wanted
to do something that would pay tribute to my home city,
to the culture that I grew up with, and then
also that honored my love of speculative fiction, of fantasy, supernatural,
(05:12):
sci fi. That's my jam. That's that's always what I
want to infuse in my writing.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
So, yes, it's very paranormal. It's kind of I mean, sexy, ghostbustery, insecure,
kind of mixed like these are the things on my
mood board as I was, kind of it's very visually stimulating,
the words, the colors of the book, and yeah, it's
it's it's a world like it's a modern New York.
(05:36):
It definitely like I could I feel like I walk
alongside a Gwendolen. You know, if I'm going into the city,
we all probably know a woman like Gwendolen. We probably
won't wish we were her friends, but we've probably just
low key stand her on the internet and just like
like all her pains. But she is a baddie and
she is quite mysterious. But yeah, so okay, the characters.
(05:58):
One of my first questions was who inspired Gwendolen first
and foremost, because I do want to give her her shine,
although Phonsie does his damn best to try to steal
her spotlight because he's so adorable. But start with Gwendolen.
Where'd the inspiration for her come from? And what did
you want her to represent?
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Sure? So I wanted you. I wanted Gwendolyn to represent
women like you. You know, as I said, I grew
up in New York and I was surrounded by these
array of black and brown women and I always just
an image that stayed with me for years has been
(06:40):
there's an image of Shirley Chisholm riding the subway with
her second husband and he's in a suit and she's
in her she's doing her Shirley chism. Look she has
her dress, you know, the glasses, the wig. I can't
I can't remember. She has a purse. I believe the
picture ran in the Daily News, and you know they
were writing subway and you see the graffiti, and you
(07:01):
know the subway looked like the subway at that time.
But there was just this powerful, cogmopolitan black woman and
I was like, oh, that's like for me as a kid,
was like, that's the promise of who I could be
one day and so that's never left me though, that
that type of feeling, and so I just knew. I
was like, oh, I want to do something that. You know,
(07:24):
these these glam women who I've I've grown up with
or worked with in publishing. I've worked for many years
as a as a book editor for different houses, both
in house and as a freelancer. I wanted something that
would represent them. And so Gwendolyn is meant to capture
epitomize that in terms of her style, the way she
(07:45):
walks through the world, her need for things to be immaculate,
just exactly as you said, Mandy, like her badass and
this that you just see her walking by and you're
like like that girl. Wow. And and then and you know,
because of my love for speculative fiction, I had to
subvert it. There's going to be waysed in just like, Okay,
(08:07):
but there's a reason why she's into this. There's a
reason why she's obsessed about these things. It's not necessarily
just like, oh, wouldn't it be fun to just have
a glamorous woman, But there there's there's some real, uh,
childhood stuff that's really been informing her obsession with these things.
And so and then Gwenda because her character is holding
(08:29):
back a lot of stuff. In the big thing of
the book, we also see she's dating this new guy, James,
who's really into her, and for some reason, she's feeling
like she has hold she has to hold back because
she's holding so much back. Her character is a bit
of a cipher you you know, she's she's more uh
identifying with her work and the things around her and
(08:51):
their little clues as to who she really is wearing.
Versus Fonsie, who he's just who he is is the page.
He's just like like figuring things out. He's just overtly emotional.
He's just in the mix. What he's figuring out is
what he's figuring out. We are privy to it right away.
(09:13):
And so there's a big contrast between the two characters
and their journey.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
So yeah, and it's not immediately clear that they are connected.
I mean I kind of anticipated that they would be connected,
but I thought they're great foils for one another because
they're so like on different ends of the spectrum in
terms of the way that they're in the world. I Mean,
Phonsie's very so is it too much to say Fansie
is a dream walker? Is that the expression?
Speaker 1 (09:39):
You be sure?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Dream trippers?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
It's been so long since I.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Come on now and he drove with the lingo that
was one of us. So he's but in his dreams
he can visit or not always in his dreams, but
he is able to commune with the dead. That is
one of his powers, and he kind of low key
is doing that in the back room of the shop
that he owns. It's a botanica. Did you grow up
near a Botanica? Are there still botanicas around?
Speaker 1 (10:04):
There are many botanica's, okay and so, and they vary now.
Some botanicas are still pretty There is one I was
at in the Bronx not that long ago, pretty traditional,
pretty old school. Another one in Brooklyn, and then there
was one in Lower East Side, Manhattan that I've visited
(10:26):
for the first time. I'm not even sure if they
would coin themselves botanica more like sort of like a
new age holistic fusion type space, but I would call
call it a botanica. And yeah, they're still around. People
are still doing their thing. I you know, wanted to
the book. In terms of the spiritual practices that are presented,
(10:47):
They're inspired obviously by like the real world and things
that really exist, but then the rules for this particular
book are its own thing, and so for instance, and
then I just wanted to play with the concept of
a botanica and anyway, so for Phonsie, his approach is
it's much more eclectic, much more holistic, much more kind
of new agey and less old school, which would fit
(11:10):
into his character. And I also just kind of think
that's the reality, if we're honest with ourselves, that's the
reality of how we navigate the world. We do hold
on to traditions, but it's I would argue, it's almost
impossible to live in the modern world and not not
fuse those traditions with other things, newer things.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
So yeah, it just seems like it's ripe for gentrification.
You know, I don't have like a coffee shop in
the front with like twelve dollars.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Fonzie would be like this, how do I feel about this?
Whereas his his associated Robin, they wouldn't have it. They'd
be like, oh no, this is oh hell, you know.
So so yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
So let's talk about the Lord because it's fun. I'm
not actually afro Latina. I have chose my last name.
But that's because my husband is Dominican and he grew
up in a very like Catholic kind of household. And
there's you know, we got our we got so many
Mary's and so much Jesus and you know, the big
portrait of Jesus over the bed at his parents' house
and all that that kind of paraphernalia around. Not too
(12:17):
much on spiritual stuff. I'm pretty sure his mom would
be not so down with that. But I love it
because it gives me more color and more like I
feel like it gave much more depth for me to
my understanding of like Afro Latina Afro LATINX LATINX culture.
So I'd love for you to, you know, tell me
a little bit about the spiritual side of it. And
(12:40):
did you grow up with that? Was someone teaching you
this or were you always kind of like maybe my husband,
you know, taught that's not we don't mess with that, So.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
It was I had sort of interesting you asked that,
because I consider myself at this point like to be
pretty spiritually eclectic. And how I grew up. I grew
up with you know, my mother was in many ways
traditionally Christian, if memory serves me correctly, it was part
of different Protestant denominations, but she also incorporated. She would
(13:14):
go to we would go to the Botanica. She would
take me to the Botanica. I would wake up and
sometimes she would splash what's called Florida water on my head,
on my pillow. Oh yeah, I would. There are the
things you were supposed to do to help ward off
like evil spirits or if someone wanted to like put
(13:36):
something on you. So I grew up. She she actively
believed in that as well. I think some of it,
you know, my mother had there were some emotional health issues,
so I definitely think some of it was was due
more from paranoia, But certainly in terms of me just
being exposed to some of these traditions, it was there.
(13:56):
And so what for the book. I knew a lot
of this stuff, and just as someone who is the
child of the diaspora, and in terms of my studies
in college and my work professionally, I you know, aware
of certain belief systems that are derived from West Africa,
(14:17):
and so all that to say, I relied on that
in terms of the world building for this particular book,
I did do additional research, and I even over wrote.
At one point my publisher, Shan Troutman, she was like,
this is too much.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Relate.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Yeah, I don't watch all of this here.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Because I felt like, I We're trying to show our work.
We is smart, like.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
I'm honoring the culture and you know, not being someone
who's just taking this stuff lightly. And then after a
while we was like, oh, she's right, this is too much.
And so that was my process. But again, I also
it was a sort of a weird thing in the
(15:08):
sense of like, for instance, in terms of your husband's
uh leaves still like that's reference the connection between Catholicism
and the Saints and their rishas. That's brief, yeah, which
I know a lot of people don't realize.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
You know that Maria means, well, it's not the same
as saint, but that's there. There are these des that
are looked up to.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
When people were brought over from the Translantic slave trade
to the what would be the America's they found it
the Saints. They were useful then to sort of syncretize,
to take on you could still maintain your your belief
system through the guise of saints, because it would be
(15:55):
too dangerous to say I'm worshiping these African deities. But
you know, because of the uh, you know, you know
so many saints that you can the equivalent to your
to Euresha, and so a lot of people don't realize that.
And then, you know, part of my process was like, well,
how to sort of make reference to that, but that's
(16:17):
not technically what the book is about, and so it
just had to be referenced and honored, but then keep
things moving. And then also the mystical order that finds
you belongs to. They're called guardians. I'm saying it in
English because my Spanish is so bad. I always think
coming and mispronounce everything. Uh, I use Spanish in the
(16:37):
book in terms of the title of the group. They
have their own system. Like this system is not based
on like any real world you know, uh, spiritual group
that that that's like fantasy world building type stuff. So
it's this, it's this interesting like fusion of sensibilities. And
that's my big thing is fusion. Fusion, you can mix
(17:00):
it up. You know. The book is deals clearly with
real world spiritual traditions, and then some things are completely fantastic.
The book is a bit urban fantasy is a bit horror,
is a bit romance, is a bit mystery thriller.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
It actually is more horror than I thought. I shouldn't
known when it got sexy earlier, because like horror movies
always have sexy stuff. But I was actually listening to
it at night. I forget why I couldn't sleep one night,
and so I was kind of like cluttering around the
kitchen and I had the audio book on and I
had I caught myself getting nervous, like getting spooked because
(17:36):
I'm like three quarters of the way through, a lot
of spooky shit is going down, and I was like,
let me press plaus on this until the morning. I'm like,
this book is stressing me out, but in a good way.
I think it was. It's yeah, it is. I mean
it's not over the top, I will say, because I'm
not an over the top girl, Like I don't like
a lot of like over the top gore and you
(17:57):
know that like Quentin Tarantino shit, like a lot of
violence in that way. But it's I think it's unsettling
because it feels like, oh, this could happen. How many
of us know someone who's passed away that has some
unfinished business, and we would not want them to come
back and find us.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Yeah, so the whole, the whole concept, and thank you
so much for bringing that up. The whole concept how
ghosts are configured in this particular story is that ghosts
exist in this place called elentemerio, which is this limbo
for for when you're not really ready to fully let
go and die and join the ancestors. And the reason
why they're stuck is because they they have unfinished business
(18:35):
in the real world, because they're they're still you know,
they they they don't feel like what was really impacting
their life, their soul was resolved, and they're not at peace,
and so they're they're they're stuck, and that's it's from
this place where Fonsie can communicate with them. And a
big theme of the book overall is how the past
(18:57):
impacts how we live uh today, how it gets in
a way of us being our fully actualized selves, how
it can impact how we you desire intimacy, And yeah,
I'm much more interested in sort of the psychological dimension
of horror and the supernatural than just being shocking or
(19:17):
grotesque for the sake of being shocking or grotesque. That's
not as interesting to me as like getting into like
the psyche of everything and being like, well, what would
be the motivation for these characters and figures and how
does that connect to how we live?
Speaker 2 (19:30):
So yeah, and I mean obviously you've said already that
Gwendolen is not who she's presenting herself to be, and
that she in a lot of ways she's putting on
this persona every day that she has cultivated. You know,
she used to study when she was growing up in Panama.
She grew up in a shelter, right or not a shelter?
What am I trying to say? Where do you put
(19:52):
children without families? Orphanage?
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Sorry?
Speaker 2 (19:56):
What are the words spoiler?
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Should we say spoiler? Or the people?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
You don't gave half the plot away?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Why?
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Is all right? I'll stop there? But she yeah, right,
so she in her childhood, she's like, this is we do?
We do get a chance to look back, which I
appreciate because I want, I like getting back to find
net where people come As a mom of small children myself,
(20:23):
don't we love a mother wound that it becomes so
bad that it almost destroys all of humanity? Gay for moms?
But sure, let's go there because you didn't talk about
the psychological component and childhood trauma and and how you
know innocence as children we can be I don't know
(20:44):
if tainted is the right word, but I'm sure it's
universally experienced in some way. Everyone has some influences that
from caretakers. Potentially a lot of people do caretakers who
are meant to, you know, surround us with love and
give us protection and all of that. But in Phonsie
and Gwendolen's case, we find out that they weren't always
(21:05):
protected by their caretaker, in this case their mother figure.
And I would love you to talk about that and
how that theme is important to the book or why
it was important for you to bring that into the book.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
They're both had childhoods that in many ways were less
than ideal. There's a Phonsie's mom who we know as
Madina in the book. We get to know her through
prologue and flashbacks. She is a character who you begin
(21:43):
to realize, oh was powerful, but also was never able
to be recognized for her power properly recognized in the
way that she wanted to be for her power, for
what she could do, and thus felt like her circumstances
were very limited, and there was a bitterness that just
began to creep into her soul, and that impacted then
how she saw herself, how she viewed her place in
(22:07):
the world, and perhaps most importantly for the book, how
she treated her son and then someone else who comes
into their household. And I wanted to I just think
we don't as a culture. We don't sit enough with
(22:29):
the ways in which we've been hurt during our formative years.
Peter Gabriel has a song digging in the dirt, finding
places we've been hurt, and I just don't think we
do that enough because it's so painful. It just brings
(22:50):
up stuff that we'd rather tell ourselves we can move past.
But what I would argue is that we end up
the decisions we make as adults, we end up doing
things that are still connected to the past. We're still
figuring out whatever it was we needed to figure out
(23:12):
where we're We're still acting as if we could fix
what went down before by what we do today. And
I would argue if we were to really people to
really sit and have a true reckoning with the ship
they've they've endured, they'd be like, oh, oh, that's what happened.
(23:35):
Oh I don't need to do X, Y and Z
any more. That's gone, that's over, and you need to
grieve and mourn and find support, you know that to
be a therapist or family or or I know, some
people's church, whatever. But you have to go through a
process and then I think you can really see who
you're supposed to to be and little bit more actualized life.
(24:00):
And so my way of exploring that, I knew what
the story was going to be, but then I had
to figure out like how to construct this, you know,
this speculative fiction, this urban fantasy, hard thing that would
explore those ideas without like going off the boards, while
(24:20):
still you know, being the story that it needed to be.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
So I think that, I mean, I one hundred percent agree.
I've been talking so much lately about I mean, I've
joked with that in the past. I'm like, it's no
wonder we addicted to our phones and sex and food
and the internet and TikTok and all this stuff because
we're avoiding feelings. You know, It's like this is really hard.
(24:44):
I need an escape and we're all just like running
from them, but they are just I think that's one
of the ghosts that we don't like. Isn't necessarily a
character in the book, But for me, the ghost of
the trauma and the ghost of pain is very much there.
And I think one of the tragedy for me of
Gwendolen and why I look at Gwendolen and with like
heaviness because she is obviously a really accomplished and driven character,
(25:08):
but she also I look forward to getting to know
more about her. I kind of feel like there might
be more books coming, but I don't know, because we
kind of meet her when she's in full sprint, has
sprinted away from so much of her childhood, and you
run away from it, and you're you're thinking, like, I'm
in control now, and this is my way of controlling it.
(25:28):
And even if you know the people who were the
cause of that pain have passed on or we've cut
them out of our life in some way, it's not
always enough, Like it's not usually enough and so needing
to but yeah, it can be hard as hell to
like pause your life and grapple with it. I mean,
Gwendolen had a whole had a whole ghost apocalypse, and finally,
(25:53):
and it's.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
It's complicated, right, because there are things that Gwendolen is
I would argue she's doing right, like the fact that
she was able to to sublimate her need for like
I need to feel beautiful, I need to feel safe,
I need to feel powerful, and to subblemate that into
like a really powerful career, into like this this this
(26:19):
uh way of living that in many ways, it's just
like wow, I I give her all the props, you know,
But then there are ways in which and when you
find out like who you know Uh she really is
and and what to where Arisia she's connected to you
and how her her power works. Once you realize all
(26:41):
of that, then it begins to be like, oh, but
this isn't this isn't really fully who she is. So
how is she dealing with not embracing all these other
things about herself? And then even just on a purely
practical level, I would argue she's still she doesn't even
realize some of the decisions she's making are being impacted
(27:03):
by the past. There's no reason it's revealed that at
some at one point she leaves New York and she
decides to come back. There's no reason for her to
come back. She could have gone anywhere else in the
United States, tried to leave America, but yet she chose
to come back to a place where so much of
what she went through as a teenager particularly was unresolved.
(27:25):
And I say that's because she knows she's still fit.
Anything ab out it's still calling her. So it's I
think these things are so complex, and we do the
best that we can. It's often a mixed bad. I
often feel like people do figure out ways in which
to thrive on some level, but then there's often something
that's still impacting us living our best life, which I
(27:47):
think I imagine you must deal with a lot in terms
of your work and your clients and the stories that
you hear.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
And yeah, I think we're all carrying also we're carrying
a lot of doubt. But we're also carrying some of
that doubt is like shame as well like and I
do think shame comes into the book as well. Gwendolen's
got some shame from, you know, some of the activities
she was exposed to as a kid and maybe felt
like she took some part in. And if there's unresolved
(28:19):
shame around something that happened to women like, whether it's
you know, in their personal lives or in their careers
or typically the women that I work with through my
career coaching, it's like a lot of shame around where
they wish they had, wish they were, or the version
of themselves that they want to be, and they're sort
of like using that like an anti saint. They create
(28:41):
an altar for this version of themselves that they think
should exist, and they're like always comparing themselves to that,
and it's really damaging and it's very limiting in a way.
I'm obviously not a psychologist, but a lot of the
work I do, it ain't about resumes and cover letters.
It's about before you, like, what could be holding you
(29:02):
back from you know, feeling good about your career or
feeling good about you know, where you're at in life.
Is this idea that you're not already where you need
to be and that you you know, you can't accept
and love exactly where you are right now. It's really
hard and I'm not I'm not immune to that either,
but it's really really hard. And when you don't, when
(29:24):
you're not able to do that and accept where you are,
you may feel like you're achieving things and move into
the world, but it actually can be holding you back
in a lot of ways because you're not fully open,
Like you're not fully open and you don't fully love
and appreciate and accept everything about yourself. And that's toward
the end of the book there is there's a line
where Gwendolen is asking herself. She's like, is this what
(29:47):
it feels like to come out?
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Yeah? I think, you know. I think it's funny you
say that because I've I've dealt with that as well.
I think I'm doing, you know, well in my my career.
But I do sometimes have this feeling of like, oh,
should I have certain things? Should I have focused on
this earlier? Should I focus on this earlier? What did
I What was I doing before? What was I searching for?
(30:15):
What got in the way? And I do think there
I do think, you know, in retrospect, I'm like, oh, okay,
there are certain ways in which I could have given
myself more agency in terms of handling X, Y and Z.
But simultaneously, I would say, in terms of certain experiences
I've had, it's what worked for me, you know, at
(30:35):
the time, and trying not to be so hard on myself. Particularly.
I tell people, you know, I'm a very hard worker
now and like a seven days a week work type
of guy. And people like, oh, Clarence, are is that
okay for you? I'm like, no, No, I used to
be on the streets all the time, club all the time.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
I had my fun.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
I'm the thing. It's time for me now, and I'm like, okay,
so this is my this is my journey, you know
where I definitely got to party and play uh for
for a while, and then like okay, and now it's time. Now,
it's time to be serious and focus.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Put on that newsboy cap, get to work. Well, talk
to me. You do get into like the scene, the
dating scene, like modern queer dating scene in New York City?
Why was that important for you to incorporate into the book?
Speaker 1 (31:34):
That was important to incorporate into the book because I
think I probably I needed to like just get some
of my experiences on the page.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Hold on, via fam We're going to be right back
right before Clarence spills some of that tea about the
dating scene in NYC. Stay tuned more with Clarence Haynes,
the author of the Ghost of Gwenda La Montgomery Brown
Ambition's August September book club pick. Go cop your copy
right now. Go to bookshop dot org check our show
notes for a length to purchase your copy, and we'll
(32:05):
be right back with more Brown Ambitions soon.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
You know. I think that the New York UH dating scene,
and it's certainly changed over the years. It's it's it
looks very different now than what it was before the
time of apps and and you know social media and
how that impacts how dudes date each other. But I
just think there's often a certain level of uh callousness,
(32:33):
and I think how to balance, you know, in terms
of being part of the gay queer seeing your need
to explore ones need to explore and connect and be
expressed and sort of I call it gay orb and
schmortgagh board at one at one point and indulge in
that because because one can, and and I do think
(32:56):
it's important to experience pleasure. But I think at the
same time, then we also have to remember we're human beings.
We have feelings. As much as we'd like to think.
I think a lot of men think that can just
compartment compartmentalize sex and intimacy, and I don't think that's
the case your you're everything is connected, and so after
a while we do have to to sit with like, oh, well,
(33:19):
I'm dealing with other human beings and if we're just
seeing each other as just nothing but bodies, what does
that do to you? To you after a time, I
think then you have to sort of step back and
see how is this really working? Is this really what
I want? And in Fonsi's case, Fonzi is just yearning
(33:40):
to just for care and intimacy.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
And a haircut.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Yeah, just some old foolsland just to be with his man,
and doesn't feel like he has the voice to really
stand in that. And I think that's a I think
that's a common thing. Can speak from personal experience, that's
a that's a thing in New York where how do
you decide, no, this is the type of experience I want.
(34:09):
Even if you're surrounded by other dudes who just want
to like hit it, quit it, go onto the next
or you know, have they're they're uh, sort of more
impersonal multive intimacy.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
So yeah, one of my closest friends is a black
queer man. And oh my god, if you think, ladies,
you think we got a bad dealing with these straight dudes.
I'm just talking about the stories he would tell me. Yikes.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Yeah, it's it's a it's a it's sometimes it's it's
sometimes like no, like you just something like no, we're
not gonna We're not going to do this. Like, let's
take a moment and talk about let's analyze the language
you're using here, what you're like like literally, yeah, I've
(34:57):
had days experiences where I've had to say like, no,
that's not acceptable. This is what you And I'm like okay,
and this is another grown human being and they sort
of get quiet and they sort of are like, oh,
I guess yeah, I guess what he's saying is true.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
And I'm like, yeah, wow, no one's ever told me
that before.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Yeah, it's really it's really interesting. I think I just
think it's I think it's fascinating, and I think it's
really weird. You know, the New York uh dating, gay dating,
sexyed It's really I just think a lot of people
(35:39):
just need to stop and take a moment. Like again, like,
I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to to enjoy,
but I think there's a way that where a lot
of people aren't recognizing our humanity and that that experience
that then leads to just pain and you know a
lot of hurt feelings and a lot of emotional isolation.
(36:02):
And yeah, yeah, so's it's been. It's been interesting to
observe to me as a writer or like to sometimes
be part of the scene, but then also having to observe.
So I'm somewhat removed. It's an interesting feeling.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
So well, are you currently dating? Are you single? Pringle?
You booed up? So yeah, that's yeah, working through some stuff. Well,
can we talk about your career for a sec switch
a little year? So I think you know, the number
of people who say they want to write a novel
is probably a gajillion times bigger than the Library of Congress.
(36:37):
Not everybody actually write, sits down and does it. And
you've actually you've been in the publishing world. You've been
editing for years and years, but you've also written. So
can you talk a little bit about your journey on
that career path and how you sort of made it
work for yourself?
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Sure, So I started, I actually started as an in
house associate editor at Random House before was Pengrian for
the merger before it became Penguin Random House.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Tony Morrison's All Stomping Grounds Tony Marson.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
So Tony Marson is not just a literary hero of
mine in terms of her actual writing, in terms of
her career arc like Tony Marson, I started off as
a Random House editor.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Her book writer, or not her book, but a book
about her Tony at Random.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
And so I, you know, for years, I just thought
like I took a break at one point and then
went into I modeled for a bit and went to
the performing arts world. I always freelance as an editor
for the book of my career, and so I thought
that would be my thing. And then increasingly I was like, well,
(37:47):
I think I actually have something to say, and I wrote.
I was asked to write a short nonfiction book about
the history of Jim Crow Laws in America for middle
grade and high high school readers. And then I think
where things really took off was when I was asked
to be co writer for Omar's young adult apple futurist
(38:11):
series Nubia.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
And so those are so different. So you wrote a
Jim Crow textbook for.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Very It wasn't there was very like small, like like
thin Jim Crow a book and then yeah, and then.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Okay, hopefully not too small. I'm great about Mike. I'm
gonna be the way I'm going to be reading my
son's textbooks. Like that's not good enough.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
Well, it was very The Jim Crow book was very
much like this is like we're it's like sort of
taking a topic and a very narrow focus, so it's
easily digestible.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
That was I understand, gotcha, And so how do you
go from that to fantasy?
Speaker 1 (38:50):
My my real passion was it's always been speculative fiction,
and so what.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Does that mean speculative fiction?
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Speculative fiction means anything where there's that involves a fantastic
So anything that is like sci fi, fantasy, horror, para
normal stuff. Speculative fiction is a huge umbrella term to
encompass all of those genres. And that's always been I
think that's always been my jam. Even when I was
(39:18):
in House at Random House the imprint, I worked for
Harlem Moon and we just our particular division, we weren't
able to I wasn't able to like acquire books that
were sci fi, fantasy, speculative fiction oriented. But that's always
been my love. And yeah, so once opportunity came to
to work with Omar and it's just known like, oh,
(39:40):
that's his jam, he'll he'll be a good fit, you know,
for this particular type of book. Then that was really
what launched me then into being becoming known as a
writer in addition to being an editor. And it was
it was something that was just very fradual. It's a
(40:01):
little bit different from me in the sense of the
opportunities that have come my way happened almost more organically
because I was known in the industry already, so it's
I didn't have to like do sort of like an
outside agent. Entry is taking me around, introducing me to
different publishing houses for the deal. Like people just kind
(40:22):
of knew no, oh yeah, we know Clarence, Yes, he'd
be good for that. Can we can we just ask
him just get a concept?
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Did that make your journey into like your first well,
first you had the other owner Ibspream, but when it
came to shopping around ghost of Gwendola Montgomery, which is
very different. I mean that's your byline. You know, you're
you're well not byline, but you know what I mean,
your name on the book. Do you feel like that
made it a little bit easier. Did you feel like
you were you know, a bit was it more stressful,
(40:51):
like pitching.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Your own easier? And so? And you should also know
I didn't technically shop shop it around. I came up
the idea with Krashan and so we oh, fun, okay, yeah,
yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
So you and k Shan knew each other before all this,
and you're like, so I have an idea. Okay, that's nice.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Freelance editing work for Legacy Lit. And so they wanted
to start doing fiction. And Kashan was looking at Mexican
gothic Sylvia Marina Garcia, and she was like, some of
you know, some of this, some sci fi fantasy stuff.
This is out there for me. But I get this,
I like party wanted and I was like, I could
(41:33):
do that.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
You're like taking down notes.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
I have an idea. So yeah, so it wasn't even
a really a shopping around process. My journey's not typical
outside of because even most people how they enter Park publishing,
it's they worked their way up from editorial assistance this
as an editor to associate bad lad blah, and I
came in. I actually was working in educational publishing at
(42:00):
a nonprofit and then someone my future boss. She could
see just sort of like how the skills that I
already had would be applicable to the publishing publishing world
and was fine hiring me. So it's been a My
journey is not typical, though I do feel comfortable saying
for anyone who's interested in the publishing world and making
(42:24):
your way, it's really really, really about relationships and really
having solid professional relationships, being someone who's seen as reliable.
You don't have to be perfect. I think most people
will allow for you know, we're all human, but really
really just carving a path for yourself where you're just
(42:44):
known for doing quality work and for being someone that
people really enjoy working with and a lot of doors
open as a result.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
So just don't be an asshole. I've been trying to.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Tell you, but it's weird, but it's hard lot.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
I mean, be an asshole if you have to be,
if someone's trying to play you, yes, sometimes you have
to be there. But you got to have some good relationships.
For me, especially in the publishing world, I bet you
work with some authors or do you get to be
more anonymous?
Speaker 1 (43:19):
You know, I get to I will say, fortunately, knock
on Wood, knock on Wood. The most of the authors
I've worked with have been a joy. I've been very fortunate.
I've had a couple and it's been weir and not
(43:41):
even say probably the two that were most difficult, it
had a lot more to do with you know, it's
interesting we're talking about like psychological uh pain and trauma.
I think it's just like what they were working on
brought up like hard stuff for them and they didn't
know how to handle it in the process.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
You know, I'm not Oh, I feel that.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Yeah. And so there's one one author he was there
working into the wee. I was trying to get the
thing together, and he said he was having a breakdown, and.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
I was like, oh yeah, oh my god.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
It's it's it's challenging in that way. And then sometimes
you know, it's just helping writers, you know, I guess
be professional is just really uh, helping them understand the
parameters of the business and what's appropriate protocol. One writer
(44:40):
once started to call me General Haynes. Really I'm like me,
but it was I was still talking like okay, no, no, no,
this is not you cannot do that.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
I mean your voice does I mean, if you wanted
to cause play as like Denzel from the Titans to
do that.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
I saw myself in an interview recently that I think
went well. I just was I told Kashan, I was like, oh,
but I just looked a little serious. She's like, no, no,
you look professional. I was like, it was just weird
for me to I don't I see myself much more.
Was like, and it's weird for me to see myself.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
Like, well, we all can we contain multitudes? Can't be
at all? I mean you are in this new era.
I mean you are, I know you. You and Cibo
did a talk. Where was it was that the James
ballwood Stromberg? Oh the strong? Okay, no big deal. How
has that been for you? Do you think? And career wise?
(45:39):
Does anything change now that you have a published novel?
You still editing around the clock.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
I am editing around the clock. So today, Mandy, I
have to get some very late pages to one of
my authors, a mystery through the author I've I've done
a lot of editing work with I'm very relate. And
then I literally will probably spend all the rest of
(46:05):
the day just returning emails and texts, just because what
the challenge has been I have a wonderful I've been
having a wonderful publishing experience, and that I have the
full support of my publisher and my imprint and the house.
And so where the a lot of the work has
(46:27):
come in is just the outside world because I'm centering
it's a book that's centering a black woman, a glamorous,
powerful black woman, and it's it's expecuative fiction. There's a
lot of like what is this? You know, the orders
(46:48):
weren't as big as if I was, you know, doing
sort of more eurocentric uh work. And so the work
now has just been just really getting the word out
there and so making lots and lots of tour stops,
doing lots of events, doing lots of discussions, and I
adore it and I'm loving it. And then so the
(47:09):
big change, to answer your question, has been how to
balance all of this with then my other work. So
that that's been the that's been the that's been the big.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
It's a good problem to have.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
It is it is, and I'm not I'm not complaining.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
I think the it's you can complain it's a problem,
but it's also like it's it's as someone who is
preparing mentally for the book launch that for the book
that I need to finish, it'll happen. I want to
have this problem, but I also have to anticipate that
because it's like, you know, it's like you said, you
(47:47):
look at the book cover. You know there's no hiding
who this book is about. You know, I thought that.
I mean, the cover are beautiful, by the way, wonderful.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
That is all Krashan and designer uh Danielle and art
Extraordinaiyu Natasha cunning Here. I had very little. I just
gave the idea and like a general and then they
just they just took it. And I said, I'm going
to get out of the way, y'all because the target
(48:16):
you need to do what you think.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
Looks inspired a whole altar. Well, I wish we had
more time. I want to keep talking to you. Well,
now we're friends, so the trapped you, you're my friend,
not to come busy you, but.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
You're gonna you're gonna have them the same same things
are going to come up. What I would say is
it's good. I think now I kind of know, like okay,
there just takes a certain level of intention in terms
of and I think you're you're better. I know you're
(48:49):
better at this than I am in terms of like
how to configure the day, what how to schedule things,
how to sort of have everything be in their place.
I I I wasn't uh quite as prepared as I
should have been. And so I'm getting a lot better
with with figuring all of that out.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
So I mean, you got to learn as you go.
And by the time the next how many more novels
do you think is this going to be? I know
it's giving series, but how many do you think?
Speaker 1 (49:14):
I can't say come on now, I.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
Don't want to give it away, but you know, you know,
I just.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Come on.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
I love a little a little twisty twist at the end.
Come on dot dot Okay, fine, Clarenceines, thank you so
much for joining Brown Edition b A fam Go pick
up your copies. Publishers won't be publishing these books if
we don't go buy them. But not just out of
a sense of you know, I have to do this
(49:46):
or I should do this. Do it out of a
sense of this is a damn good book, and it's
a very it's a it's a page turner, it is
a finish in a weekend and then talk about it
for the next two months of your life. Kind of book.
Congratulate Clarence. Thank you so much for sharing with Brown Ambition.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Thank you so much for having me Mandy. This is
an absolute delight.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Thank you, Thank you awesome all right, and nowhere can
be a fan. Find you on the internet streets.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
I am on Clarence A. I am on Instagram at
Clarence A. Haynes, so just my name without any period spaces.
I'm particularly very responsive on and staff, but then I'm
also on threads and Facebook and Blue Sky. But yeah,
(50:33):
just just look for me and if and I do
respond to messages, it just sometimes will take me a
couple of days because of my schedule.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
But thank but do send him a shout. We need
all the support and leave reviews. Don't even DM if
you're going to DM him, stop it. Go to Amazon
and leave a review, Go to good Reads and leave
a review. We need it, all right. Thank you, Clarence.
Congratulations on the book, and good luck on many many
more months of promoting it. To come mhmm and be
(51:01):
a fan. Until next time. Take care, Bye,
You know, the language is kind of saucy so a
lot of times, so it's a section with you, I know.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Yeah, that's why I chose it a little spicy.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
You're like my target reader. You're the person I wanted
to like create this book for, like powerful round black
women who are like just doing the thing and then
you know, being complex and crazy.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yes, I felt that. I felt like you were speaking
to me. All right, well let me kick off the show.
Welcome Brown Ambition. I am so excited to be joined
by the Clarence Haynes. He is the author of Brown
Ambition's official book club selection for August and September. Y'all,
(00:52):
I am so excited for y'all to read his book.
And it's called Ghosts of Gwendola Montgomery. I have fifty
eleven copies. This is the that I've been Gail King reading.
You know when Gail always comes out with the book
and it's got like seventy eleven little sticky notes in it.
That's my note taking copy. I also have one on display.
I told Clarence I made an altar to his book,
(01:13):
which is very on brand. We're going to get into
the book. It's all going to make sense. But Clarence,
welcome to the show. I'm so happy to have you here.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. I'm over
the moon. And thank you for your hospitality and the
altar and the coordination of all things. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
You're going to feel right at home. My dog's about
to start barking. I can feel her rumbling, so you
know it's all family here. Well, you're in New York, right,
We're both in New York, is that right.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I'm in a in Brooklyn and Clinton Hill. I grew
up in the Bronx.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
You have a voice for podcasting and radio before.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Thank you. Yeah. I can't say have done much voiceover work.
Have been in the performing arts. I've sung a bit
and okay, people have been so nice. People have been
asking me if I did the audio book, and it
would have been far too stressful, and people really here
for folks who are into audiobooks. Brittany Bradford and Andre Santana,
(02:16):
the two narrators, they did an amazing job.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
They did such a good job. I listened and I
listened to the book on audio. Because we're a working mom,
we don't have our hands free lots of times, and
narrators can make or break the audio book, and had
they not been so good, I probably would have had
to like put down the kids are gotten a babysitter
or something to read the hard copy. But they were phenomenal.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
The phenomenal They've already Audiophile Magazine. They already won an
award really yeah, for like outstanding narration. I forget the
exact language they're they're they're getting. I'm pretty sure like
end of year list they're going to be they're going
to be recognized because everyone their mama is just like wow.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
So and it's just a book that you made that
is now like lifting up careers and winning awards for
the girls who have not had a chance to pick
up the book yet, could you give us a quick
synopsis of what this book is about and what they
can expect.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Sure. So, the book, as people know it, is called
The Ghosts of Gwendolen Montgomery. It is about a high
powered New York publicist who has a secret, mystical past.
The title character her name is Gwendolen Montgomery. However, one
thing I can reveal her identity is constructed and so
(03:37):
as the story infurls, we begin to get more and
more intel about who she really is. She's basically coordinating
this really big fashion event at the Brooklyn Museum that
goes horribly wrong, and then that takes the story. The
story begins the boss arster role in terms of us
figuring out who is this character. She's also has a
(03:59):
mysterious connection to an Afro latinae queer psychic who runs
a botanica in the South Bronx. His name is Fonsie.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I'm Susie.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
He's in a bit of a mess. He's having a
love triangle between his ex, his toxic ex boyfriend Raphael,
and this mysterious ghost with which she's having.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Why are you giving everything away?
Speaker 1 (04:28):
And the big the big issue is he also comes
with a warning for us that ghosts are about to
invade the human world. And so there's there's also, again
I use a word mysterious, a mysterious connection between him
and Gwenda Montgomery. So that's that's it in a nutshell.
It's a way of I'm paying homage to New York City,
to my roots. My family here from Panama and I
(04:49):
grew up in the Bronx. I've pretty much lived in
New York most of my life, and so I wanted
to do something that would pay tribute to my home city,
to the culture that I grew up with, and then
also that honored my love of speculative fiction, of fantasy, supernatural,
(05:12):
sci fi. That's my jam. That's that's always what I
want to infuse in my writing.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
So, yes, it's very paranormal. It's kind of I mean, sexy, ghostbustery, insecure,
kind of mixed like these are the things on my
mood board as I was, kind of it's very visually stimulating,
the words, the colors of the book, and yeah, it's
it's it's a world like it's a modern New York.
(05:36):
It definitely like I could I feel like I walk
alongside a Gwendolen. You know, if I'm going into the city,
we all probably know a woman like Gwendolen. We probably
won't wish we were her friends, but we've probably just
low key stand her on the internet and just like
like all her pains. But she is a baddie and
she is quite mysterious. But yeah, so okay, the characters.
(05:58):
One of my first questions was who inspired Gwendolen first
and foremost, because I do want to give her her shine,
although Phonsie does his damn best to try to steal
her spotlight because he's so adorable. But start with Gwendolen.
Where'd the inspiration for her come from? And what did
you want her to represent?
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Sure? So I wanted you. I wanted Gwendolyn to represent
women like you. You know, as I said, I grew
up in New York and I was surrounded by these
array of black and brown women and I always just
an image that stayed with me for years has been
(06:40):
there's an image of Shirley Chisholm riding the subway with
her second husband and he's in a suit and she's
in her she's doing her Shirley chism. Look she has
her dress, you know, the glasses, the wig. I can't
I can't remember. She has a purse. I believe the
picture ran in the Daily News, and you know they
were writing subway and you see the graffiti, and you
(07:01):
know the subway looked like the subway at that time.
But there was just this powerful, cogmopolitan black woman and
I was like, oh, that's like for me as a kid,
was like, that's the promise of who I could be
one day and so that's never left me though, that
that type of feeling, and so I just knew. I
was like, oh, I want to do something that. You know,
(07:24):
these these glam women who I've I've grown up with
or worked with in publishing. I've worked for many years
as a as a book editor for different houses, both
in house and as a freelancer. I wanted something that
would represent them. And so Gwendolyn is meant to capture
epitomize that in terms of her style, the way she
(07:45):
walks through the world, her need for things to be immaculate,
just exactly as you said, Mandy, like her badass and
this that you just see her walking by and you're
like like that girl. Wow. And and then and you know,
because of my love for speculative fiction, I had to
subvert it. There's going to be waysed in just like, Okay,
(08:07):
but there's a reason why she's into this. There's a
reason why she's obsessed about these things. It's not necessarily
just like, oh, wouldn't it be fun to just have
a glamorous woman, But there there's there's some real, uh,
childhood stuff that's really been informing her obsession with these things.
And so and then Gwenda because her character is holding
(08:29):
back a lot of stuff. In the big thing of
the book, we also see she's dating this new guy, James,
who's really into her, and for some reason, she's feeling
like she has hold she has to hold back because
she's holding so much back. Her character is a bit
of a cipher you you know, she's she's more uh
identifying with her work and the things around her and
(08:51):
their little clues as to who she really is wearing.
Versus Fonsie, who he's just who he is is the page.
He's just like like figuring things out. He's just overtly emotional.
He's just in the mix. What he's figuring out is
what he's figuring out. We are privy to it right away.
(09:13):
And so there's a big contrast between the two characters
and their journey.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
So yeah, and it's not immediately clear that they are connected.
I mean I kind of anticipated that they would be connected,
but I thought they're great foils for one another because
they're so like on different ends of the spectrum in
terms of the way that they're in the world. I Mean,
Phonsie's very so is it too much to say Fansie
is a dream walker? Is that the expression?
Speaker 1 (09:39):
You be sure?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Dream trippers?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
It's been so long since I.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Come on now and he drove with the lingo that
was one of us. So he's but in his dreams
he can visit or not always in his dreams, but
he is able to commune with the dead. That is
one of his powers, and he kind of low key
is doing that in the back room of the shop
that he owns. It's a botanica. Did you grow up
near a Botanica? Are there still botanicas around?
Speaker 1 (10:04):
There are many botanica's, okay and so, and they vary now.
Some botanicas are still pretty There is one I was
at in the Bronx not that long ago, pretty traditional,
pretty old school. Another one in Brooklyn, and then there
was one in Lower East Side, Manhattan that I've visited
(10:26):
for the first time. I'm not even sure if they
would coin themselves botanica more like sort of like a
new age holistic fusion type space, but I would call
call it a botanica. And yeah, they're still around. People
are still doing their thing. I you know, wanted to
the book. In terms of the spiritual practices that are presented,
(10:47):
They're inspired obviously by like the real world and things
that really exist, but then the rules for this particular
book are its own thing, and so for instance, and
then I just wanted to play with the concept of
a botanica and anyway, so for Phonsie, his approach is
it's much more eclectic, much more holistic, much more kind
of new agey and less old school, which would fit
(11:10):
into his character. And I also just kind of think
that's the reality, if we're honest with ourselves, that's the
reality of how we navigate the world. We do hold
on to traditions, but it's I would argue, it's almost
impossible to live in the modern world and not not
fuse those traditions with other things, newer things.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
So yeah, it just seems like it's ripe for gentrification.
You know, I don't have like a coffee shop in
the front with like twelve dollars.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Fonzie would be like this, how do I feel about this?
Whereas his his associated Robin, they wouldn't have it. They'd
be like, oh no, this is oh hell, you know.
So so yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
So let's talk about the Lord because it's fun. I'm
not actually afro Latina. I have chose my last name.
But that's because my husband is Dominican and he grew
up in a very like Catholic kind of household. And
there's you know, we got our we got so many
Mary's and so much Jesus and you know, the big
portrait of Jesus over the bed at his parents' house
and all that that kind of paraphernalia around. Not too
(12:17):
much on spiritual stuff. I'm pretty sure his mom would
be not so down with that. But I love it
because it gives me more color and more like I
feel like it gave much more depth for me to
my understanding of like Afro Latina Afro LATINX LATINX culture.
So I'd love for you to, you know, tell me
a little bit about the spiritual side of it. And
(12:40):
did you grow up with that? Was someone teaching you
this or were you always kind of like maybe my husband,
you know, taught that's not we don't mess with that, So.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
It was I had sort of interesting you asked that,
because I consider myself at this point like to be
pretty spiritually eclectic. And how I grew up. I grew
up with you know, my mother was in many ways
traditionally Christian, if memory serves me correctly, it was part
of different Protestant denominations, but she also incorporated. She would
(13:14):
go to we would go to the Botanica. She would
take me to the Botanica. I would wake up and
sometimes she would splash what's called Florida water on my head,
on my pillow. Oh yeah, I would. There are the
things you were supposed to do to help ward off
like evil spirits or if someone wanted to like put
(13:36):
something on you. So I grew up. She she actively
believed in that as well. I think some of it,
you know, my mother had there were some emotional health issues,
so I definitely think some of it was was due
more from paranoia, But certainly in terms of me just
being exposed to some of these traditions, it was there.
(13:56):
And so what for the book. I knew a lot
of this stuff, and just as someone who is the
child of the diaspora, and in terms of my studies
in college and my work professionally, I you know, aware
of certain belief systems that are derived from West Africa,
(14:17):
and so all that to say, I relied on that
in terms of the world building for this particular book,
I did do additional research, and I even over wrote.
At one point my publisher, Shan Troutman, she was like,
this is too much.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Relate.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Yeah, I don't watch all of this here.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Because I felt like, I We're trying to show our work.
We is smart, like.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
I'm honoring the culture and you know, not being someone
who's just taking this stuff lightly. And then after a
while we was like, oh, she's right, this is too much.
And so that was my process. But again, I also
it was a sort of a weird thing in the
(15:08):
sense of like, for instance, in terms of your husband's
uh leaves still like that's reference the connection between Catholicism
and the Saints and their rishas. That's brief, yeah, which
I know a lot of people don't realize.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
You know that Maria means, well, it's not the same
as saint, but that's there. There are these des that
are looked up to.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
When people were brought over from the Translantic slave trade
to the what would be the America's they found it
the Saints. They were useful then to sort of syncretize,
to take on you could still maintain your your belief
system through the guise of saints, because it would be
(15:55):
too dangerous to say I'm worshiping these African deities. But
you know, because of the uh, you know, you know
so many saints that you can the equivalent to your
to Euresha, and so a lot of people don't realize that.
And then, you know, part of my process was like, well,
how to sort of make reference to that, but that's
(16:17):
not technically what the book is about, and so it
just had to be referenced and honored, but then keep
things moving. And then also the mystical order that finds
you belongs to. They're called guardians. I'm saying it in
English because my Spanish is so bad. I always think
coming and mispronounce everything. Uh, I use Spanish in the
(16:37):
book in terms of the title of the group. They
have their own system. Like this system is not based
on like any real world you know, uh, spiritual group
that that that's like fantasy world building type stuff. So
it's this, it's this interesting like fusion of sensibilities. And
that's my big thing is fusion. Fusion, you can mix
(17:00):
it up. You know. The book is deals clearly with
real world spiritual traditions, and then some things are completely fantastic.
The book is a bit urban fantasy is a bit horror,
is a bit romance, is a bit mystery thriller.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
It actually is more horror than I thought. I shouldn't
known when it got sexy earlier, because like horror movies
always have sexy stuff. But I was actually listening to
it at night. I forget why I couldn't sleep one night,
and so I was kind of like cluttering around the
kitchen and I had the audio book on and I
had I caught myself getting nervous, like getting spooked because
(17:36):
I'm like three quarters of the way through, a lot
of spooky shit is going down, and I was like,
let me press plaus on this until the morning. I'm like,
this book is stressing me out, but in a good way.
I think it was. It's yeah, it is. I mean
it's not over the top, I will say, because I'm
not an over the top girl, Like I don't like
a lot of like over the top gore and you
(17:57):
know that like Quentin Tarantino shit, like a lot of
violence in that way. But it's I think it's unsettling
because it feels like, oh, this could happen. How many
of us know someone who's passed away that has some
unfinished business, and we would not want them to come
back and find us.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Yeah, so the whole, the whole concept, and thank you
so much for bringing that up. The whole concept how
ghosts are configured in this particular story is that ghosts
exist in this place called elentemerio, which is this limbo
for for when you're not really ready to fully let
go and die and join the ancestors. And the reason
why they're stuck is because they they have unfinished business
(18:35):
in the real world, because they're they're still you know,
they they they don't feel like what was really impacting
their life, their soul was resolved, and they're not at peace,
and so they're they're they're stuck, and that's it's from
this place where Fonsie can communicate with them. And a
big theme of the book overall is how the past
(18:57):
impacts how we live uh today, how it gets in
a way of us being our fully actualized selves, how
it can impact how we you desire intimacy, And yeah,
I'm much more interested in sort of the psychological dimension
of horror and the supernatural than just being shocking or
(19:17):
grotesque for the sake of being shocking or grotesque. That's
not as interesting to me as like getting into like
the psyche of everything and being like, well, what would
be the motivation for these characters and figures and how
does that connect to how we live?
Speaker 2 (19:30):
So yeah, and I mean obviously you've said already that
Gwendolen is not who she's presenting herself to be, and
that she in a lot of ways she's putting on
this persona every day that she has cultivated. You know,
she used to study when she was growing up in Panama.
She grew up in a shelter, right or not a shelter?
What am I trying to say? Where do you put
(19:52):
children without families? Orphanage?
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Sorry?
Speaker 2 (19:56):
What are the words spoiler?
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Should we say spoiler? Or the people?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
You don't gave half the plot away?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Why?
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Is all right? I'll stop there? But she yeah, right,
so she in her childhood, she's like, this is we do?
We do get a chance to look back, which I
appreciate because I want, I like getting back to find
net where people come As a mom of small children myself,
(20:23):
don't we love a mother wound that it becomes so
bad that it almost destroys all of humanity? Gay for moms?
But sure, let's go there because you didn't talk about
the psychological component and childhood trauma and and how you
know innocence as children we can be I don't know
(20:44):
if tainted is the right word, but I'm sure it's
universally experienced in some way. Everyone has some influences that
from caretakers. Potentially a lot of people do caretakers who
are meant to, you know, surround us with love and
give us protection and all of that. But in Phonsie
and Gwendolen's case, we find out that they weren't always
(21:05):
protected by their caretaker, in this case their mother figure.
And I would love you to talk about that and
how that theme is important to the book or why
it was important for you to bring that into the book.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
They're both had childhoods that in many ways were less
than ideal. There's a Phonsie's mom who we know as
Madina in the book. We get to know her through
prologue and flashbacks. She is a character who you begin
(21:43):
to realize, oh was powerful, but also was never able
to be recognized for her power properly recognized in the
way that she wanted to be for her power, for
what she could do, and thus felt like her circumstances
were very limited, and there was a bitterness that just
began to creep into her soul, and that impacted then
how she saw herself, how she viewed her place in
(22:07):
the world, and perhaps most importantly for the book, how
she treated her son and then someone else who comes
into their household. And I wanted to I just think
we don't as a culture. We don't sit enough with
(22:29):
the ways in which we've been hurt during our formative years.
Peter Gabriel has a song digging in the dirt, finding
places we've been hurt, and I just don't think we
do that enough because it's so painful. It just brings
(22:50):
up stuff that we'd rather tell ourselves we can move past.
But what I would argue is that we end up
the decisions we make as adults, we end up doing
things that are still connected to the past. We're still
figuring out whatever it was we needed to figure out
(23:12):
where we're We're still acting as if we could fix
what went down before by what we do today. And
I would argue if we were to really people to
really sit and have a true reckoning with the ship
they've they've endured, they'd be like, oh, oh, that's what happened.
(23:35):
Oh I don't need to do X, Y and Z
any more. That's gone, that's over, and you need to
grieve and mourn and find support, you know that to
be a therapist or family or or I know, some
people's church, whatever. But you have to go through a
process and then I think you can really see who
you're supposed to to be and little bit more actualized life.
(24:00):
And so my way of exploring that, I knew what
the story was going to be, but then I had
to figure out like how to construct this, you know,
this speculative fiction, this urban fantasy, hard thing that would
explore those ideas without like going off the boards, while
(24:20):
still you know, being the story that it needed to be.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
So I think that, I mean, I one hundred percent agree.
I've been talking so much lately about I mean, I've
joked with that in the past. I'm like, it's no
wonder we addicted to our phones and sex and food
and the internet and TikTok and all this stuff because
we're avoiding feelings. You know, It's like this is really hard.
(24:44):
I need an escape and we're all just like running
from them, but they are just I think that's one
of the ghosts that we don't like. Isn't necessarily a
character in the book, But for me, the ghost of
the trauma and the ghost of pain is very much there.
And I think one of the tragedy for me of
Gwendolen and why I look at Gwendolen and with like
heaviness because she is obviously a really accomplished and driven character,
(25:08):
but she also I look forward to getting to know
more about her. I kind of feel like there might
be more books coming, but I don't know, because we
kind of meet her when she's in full sprint, has
sprinted away from so much of her childhood, and you
run away from it, and you're you're thinking, like, I'm
in control now, and this is my way of controlling it.
(25:28):
And even if you know the people who were the
cause of that pain have passed on or we've cut
them out of our life in some way, it's not
always enough, Like it's not usually enough and so needing
to but yeah, it can be hard as hell to
like pause your life and grapple with it. I mean,
Gwendolen had a whole had a whole ghost apocalypse, and finally,
(25:53):
and it's.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
It's complicated, right, because there are things that Gwendolen is
I would argue she's doing right, like the fact that
she was able to to sublimate her need for like
I need to feel beautiful, I need to feel safe,
I need to feel powerful, and to subblemate that into
like a really powerful career, into like this this this
(26:19):
uh way of living that in many ways, it's just
like wow, I I give her all the props, you know,
But then there are ways in which and when you
find out like who you know Uh she really is
and and what to where Arisia she's connected to you
and how her her power works. Once you realize all
(26:41):
of that, then it begins to be like, oh, but
this isn't this isn't really fully who she is. So
how is she dealing with not embracing all these other
things about herself? And then even just on a purely
practical level, I would argue she's still she doesn't even
realize some of the decisions she's making are being impacted
(27:03):
by the past. There's no reason it's revealed that at
some at one point she leaves New York and she
decides to come back. There's no reason for her to
come back. She could have gone anywhere else in the
United States, tried to leave America, but yet she chose
to come back to a place where so much of
what she went through as a teenager particularly was unresolved.
(27:25):
And I say that's because she knows she's still fit.
Anything ab out it's still calling her. So it's I
think these things are so complex, and we do the
best that we can. It's often a mixed bad. I
often feel like people do figure out ways in which
to thrive on some level, but then there's often something
that's still impacting us living our best life, which I
(27:47):
think I imagine you must deal with a lot in terms
of your work and your clients and the stories that
you hear.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
And yeah, I think we're all carrying also we're carrying
a lot of doubt. But we're also carrying some of
that doubt is like shame as well like and I
do think shame comes into the book as well. Gwendolen's
got some shame from, you know, some of the activities
she was exposed to as a kid and maybe felt
like she took some part in. And if there's unresolved
(28:19):
shame around something that happened to women like, whether it's
you know, in their personal lives or in their careers
or typically the women that I work with through my
career coaching, it's like a lot of shame around where
they wish they had, wish they were, or the version
of themselves that they want to be, and they're sort
of like using that like an anti saint. They create
(28:41):
an altar for this version of themselves that they think
should exist, and they're like always comparing themselves to that,
and it's really damaging and it's very limiting in a way.
I'm obviously not a psychologist, but a lot of the
work I do, it ain't about resumes and cover letters.
It's about before you, like, what could be holding you
(29:02):
back from you know, feeling good about your career or
feeling good about you know, where you're at in life.
Is this idea that you're not already where you need
to be and that you you know, you can't accept
and love exactly where you are right now. It's really
hard and I'm not I'm not immune to that either,
but it's really really hard. And when you don't, when
(29:24):
you're not able to do that and accept where you are,
you may feel like you're achieving things and move into
the world, but it actually can be holding you back
in a lot of ways because you're not fully open,
Like you're not fully open and you don't fully love
and appreciate and accept everything about yourself. And that's toward
the end of the book there is there's a line
where Gwendolen is asking herself. She's like, is this what
(29:47):
it feels like to come out?
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Yeah? I think, you know. I think it's funny you
say that because I've I've dealt with that as well.
I think I'm doing, you know, well in my my career.
But I do sometimes have this feeling of like, oh,
should I have certain things? Should I have focused on
this earlier? Should I focus on this earlier? What did
I What was I doing before? What was I searching for?
(30:15):
What got in the way? And I do think there
I do think, you know, in retrospect, I'm like, oh, okay,
there are certain ways in which I could have given
myself more agency in terms of handling X, Y and Z.
But simultaneously, I would say, in terms of certain experiences
I've had, it's what worked for me, you know, at
(30:35):
the time, and trying not to be so hard on myself. Particularly.
I tell people, you know, I'm a very hard worker
now and like a seven days a week work type
of guy. And people like, oh, Clarence, are is that
okay for you? I'm like, no, No, I used to
be on the streets all the time, club all the time.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
I had my fun.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
I'm the thing. It's time for me now, and I'm like, okay,
so this is my this is my journey, you know
where I definitely got to party and play uh for
for a while, and then like okay, and now it's time. Now,
it's time to be serious and focus.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Put on that newsboy cap, get to work. Well, talk
to me. You do get into like the scene, the
dating scene, like modern queer dating scene in New York City?
Why was that important for you to incorporate into the book?
Speaker 1 (31:34):
That was important to incorporate into the book because I
think I probably I needed to like just get some
of my experiences on the page.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Hold on, via fam We're going to be right back
right before Clarence spills some of that tea about the
dating scene in NYC. Stay tuned more with Clarence Haynes,
the author of the Ghost of Gwenda La Montgomery Brown
Ambition's August September book club pick. Go cop your copy
right now. Go to bookshop dot org check our show
notes for a length to purchase your copy, and we'll
(32:05):
be right back with more Brown Ambitions soon.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
You know. I think that the New York UH dating scene,
and it's certainly changed over the years. It's it's it
looks very different now than what it was before the
time of apps and and you know social media and
how that impacts how dudes date each other. But I
just think there's often a certain level of uh callousness,
(32:33):
and I think how to balance, you know, in terms
of being part of the gay queer seeing your need
to explore ones need to explore and connect and be
expressed and sort of I call it gay orb and
schmortgagh board at one at one point and indulge in
that because because one can, and and I do think
(32:56):
it's important to experience pleasure. But I think at the
same time, then we also have to remember we're human beings.
We have feelings. As much as we'd like to think.
I think a lot of men think that can just
compartment compartmentalize sex and intimacy, and I don't think that's
the case your you're everything is connected, and so after
a while we do have to to sit with like, oh, well,
(33:19):
I'm dealing with other human beings and if we're just
seeing each other as just nothing but bodies, what does
that do to you? To you after a time, I
think then you have to sort of step back and
see how is this really working? Is this really what
I want? And in Fonsi's case, Fonzi is just yearning
(33:40):
to just for care and intimacy.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
And a haircut.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Yeah, just some old foolsland just to be with his man,
and doesn't feel like he has the voice to really
stand in that. And I think that's a I think
that's a common thing. Can speak from personal experience, that's
a that's a thing in New York where how do
you decide, no, this is the type of experience I want.
(34:09):
Even if you're surrounded by other dudes who just want
to like hit it, quit it, go onto the next
or you know, have they're they're uh, sort of more
impersonal multive intimacy.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
So yeah, one of my closest friends is a black
queer man. And oh my god, if you think, ladies,
you think we got a bad dealing with these straight dudes.
I'm just talking about the stories he would tell me. Yikes.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Yeah, it's it's a it's a it's sometimes it's it's
sometimes like no, like you just something like no, we're
not gonna We're not going to do this. Like, let's
take a moment and talk about let's analyze the language
you're using here, what you're like like literally, yeah, I've
(34:57):
had days experiences where I've had to say like, no,
that's not acceptable. This is what you And I'm like okay,
and this is another grown human being and they sort
of get quiet and they sort of are like, oh,
I guess yeah, I guess what he's saying is true.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
And I'm like, yeah, wow, no one's ever told me
that before.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Yeah, it's really it's really interesting. I think I just
think it's I think it's fascinating, and I think it's
really weird. You know, the New York uh dating, gay dating,
sexyed It's really I just think a lot of people
(35:39):
just need to stop and take a moment. Like again, like,
I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to to enjoy,
but I think there's a way that where a lot
of people aren't recognizing our humanity and that that experience
that then leads to just pain and you know a
lot of hurt feelings and a lot of emotional isolation.
(36:02):
And yeah, yeah, so's it's been. It's been interesting to
observe to me as a writer or like to sometimes
be part of the scene, but then also having to observe.
So I'm somewhat removed. It's an interesting feeling.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
So well, are you currently dating? Are you single? Pringle?
You booed up? So yeah, that's yeah, working through some stuff. Well,
can we talk about your career for a sec switch
a little year? So I think you know, the number
of people who say they want to write a novel
is probably a gajillion times bigger than the Library of Congress.
(36:37):
Not everybody actually write, sits down and does it. And
you've actually you've been in the publishing world. You've been
editing for years and years, but you've also written. So
can you talk a little bit about your journey on
that career path and how you sort of made it
work for yourself?
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Sure, So I started, I actually started as an in
house associate editor at Random House before was Pengrian for
the merger before it became Penguin Random House.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Tony Morrison's All Stomping Grounds Tony Marson.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
So Tony Marson is not just a literary hero of
mine in terms of her actual writing, in terms of
her career arc like Tony Marson, I started off as
a Random House editor.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Her book writer, or not her book, but a book
about her Tony at Random.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
And so I, you know, for years, I just thought
like I took a break at one point and then
went into I modeled for a bit and went to
the performing arts world. I always freelance as an editor
for the book of my career, and so I thought
that would be my thing. And then increasingly I was like, well,
(37:47):
I think I actually have something to say, and I wrote.
I was asked to write a short nonfiction book about
the history of Jim Crow Laws in America for middle
grade and high high school readers. And then I think
where things really took off was when I was asked
to be co writer for Omar's young adult apple futurist
(38:11):
series Nubia.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
And so those are so different. So you wrote a
Jim Crow textbook for.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Very It wasn't there was very like small, like like
thin Jim Crow a book and then yeah, and then.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Okay, hopefully not too small. I'm great about Mike. I'm
gonna be the way I'm going to be reading my
son's textbooks. Like that's not good enough.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
Well, it was very The Jim Crow book was very
much like this is like we're it's like sort of
taking a topic and a very narrow focus, so it's
easily digestible.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
That was I understand, gotcha, And so how do you
go from that to fantasy?
Speaker 1 (38:50):
My my real passion was it's always been speculative fiction,
and so what.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Does that mean speculative fiction?
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Speculative fiction means anything where there's that involves a fantastic
So anything that is like sci fi, fantasy, horror, para
normal stuff. Speculative fiction is a huge umbrella term to
encompass all of those genres. And that's always been I
think that's always been my jam. Even when I was
(39:18):
in House at Random House the imprint, I worked for
Harlem Moon and we just our particular division, we weren't
able to I wasn't able to like acquire books that
were sci fi, fantasy, speculative fiction oriented. But that's always
been my love. And yeah, so once opportunity came to
to work with Omar and it's just known like, oh,
(39:40):
that's his jam, he'll he'll be a good fit, you know,
for this particular type of book. Then that was really
what launched me then into being becoming known as a
writer in addition to being an editor. And it was
it was something that was just very fradual. It's a
(40:01):
little bit different from me in the sense of the
opportunities that have come my way happened almost more organically
because I was known in the industry already, so it's
I didn't have to like do sort of like an
outside agent. Entry is taking me around, introducing me to
different publishing houses for the deal. Like people just kind
(40:22):
of knew no, oh yeah, we know Clarence, Yes, he'd
be good for that. Can we can we just ask
him just get a concept?
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Did that make your journey into like your first well,
first you had the other owner Ibspream, but when it
came to shopping around ghost of Gwendola Montgomery, which is
very different. I mean that's your byline. You know, you're
you're well not byline, but you know what I mean,
your name on the book. Do you feel like that
made it a little bit easier. Did you feel like
you were you know, a bit was it more stressful,
(40:51):
like pitching.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Your own easier? And so? And you should also know
I didn't technically shop shop it around. I came up
the idea with Krashan and so we oh, fun, okay, yeah,
yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
So you and k Shan knew each other before all this,
and you're like, so I have an idea. Okay, that's nice.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Freelance editing work for Legacy Lit. And so they wanted
to start doing fiction. And Kashan was looking at Mexican
gothic Sylvia Marina Garcia, and she was like, some of
you know, some of this, some sci fi fantasy stuff.
This is out there for me. But I get this,
I like party wanted and I was like, I could
(41:33):
do that.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
You're like taking down notes.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
I have an idea. So yeah, so it wasn't even
a really a shopping around process. My journey's not typical
outside of because even most people how they enter Park publishing,
it's they worked their way up from editorial assistance this
as an editor to associate bad lad blah, and I
came in. I actually was working in educational publishing at
(42:00):
a nonprofit and then someone my future boss. She could
see just sort of like how the skills that I
already had would be applicable to the publishing publishing world
and was fine hiring me. So it's been a My
journey is not typical, though I do feel comfortable saying
for anyone who's interested in the publishing world and making
(42:24):
your way, it's really really, really about relationships and really
having solid professional relationships, being someone who's seen as reliable.
You don't have to be perfect. I think most people
will allow for you know, we're all human, but really
really just carving a path for yourself where you're just
(42:44):
known for doing quality work and for being someone that
people really enjoy working with and a lot of doors
open as a result.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
So just don't be an asshole. I've been trying to.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Tell you, but it's weird, but it's hard lot.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
I mean, be an asshole if you have to be,
if someone's trying to play you, yes, sometimes you have
to be there. But you got to have some good relationships.
For me, especially in the publishing world, I bet you
work with some authors or do you get to be
more anonymous?
Speaker 1 (43:19):
You know, I get to I will say, fortunately, knock
on Wood, knock on Wood. The most of the authors
I've worked with have been a joy. I've been very fortunate.
I've had a couple and it's been weir and not
(43:41):
even say probably the two that were most difficult, it
had a lot more to do with you know, it's
interesting we're talking about like psychological uh pain and trauma.
I think it's just like what they were working on
brought up like hard stuff for them and they didn't
know how to handle it in the process.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
You know, I'm not Oh, I feel that.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Yeah. And so there's one one author he was there
working into the wee. I was trying to get the
thing together, and he said he was having a breakdown, and.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
I was like, oh yeah, oh my god.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
It's it's it's challenging in that way. And then sometimes
you know, it's just helping writers, you know, I guess
be professional is just really uh, helping them understand the
parameters of the business and what's appropriate protocol. One writer
(44:40):
once started to call me General Haynes. Really I'm like me,
but it was I was still talking like okay, no, no, no,
this is not you cannot do that.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
I mean your voice does I mean, if you wanted
to cause play as like Denzel from the Titans to
do that.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
I saw myself in an interview recently that I think
went well. I just was I told Kashan, I was like, oh,
but I just looked a little serious. She's like, no, no,
you look professional. I was like, it was just weird
for me to I don't I see myself much more.
Was like, and it's weird for me to see myself.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
Like, well, we all can we contain multitudes? Can't be
at all? I mean you are in this new era.
I mean you are, I know you. You and Cibo
did a talk. Where was it was that the James
ballwood Stromberg? Oh the strong? Okay, no big deal. How
has that been for you? Do you think? And career wise?
(45:39):
Does anything change now that you have a published novel?
You still editing around the clock.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
I am editing around the clock. So today, Mandy, I
have to get some very late pages to one of
my authors, a mystery through the author I've I've done
a lot of editing work with I'm very relate. And
then I literally will probably spend all the rest of
(46:05):
the day just returning emails and texts, just because what
the challenge has been I have a wonderful I've been
having a wonderful publishing experience, and that I have the
full support of my publisher and my imprint and the house.
And so where the a lot of the work has
(46:27):
come in is just the outside world because I'm centering
it's a book that's centering a black woman, a glamorous,
powerful black woman, and it's it's expecuative fiction. There's a
lot of like what is this? You know, the orders
(46:48):
weren't as big as if I was, you know, doing
sort of more eurocentric uh work. And so the work
now has just been just really getting the word out
there and so making lots and lots of tour stops,
doing lots of events, doing lots of discussions, and I
adore it and I'm loving it. And then so the
(47:09):
big change, to answer your question, has been how to
balance all of this with then my other work. So
that that's been the that's been the that's been the big.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
It's a good problem to have.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
It is it is, and I'm not I'm not complaining.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
I think the it's you can complain it's a problem,
but it's also like it's it's as someone who is
preparing mentally for the book launch that for the book
that I need to finish, it'll happen. I want to
have this problem, but I also have to anticipate that
because it's like, you know, it's like you said, you
(47:47):
look at the book cover. You know there's no hiding
who this book is about. You know, I thought that.
I mean, the cover are beautiful, by the way, wonderful.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
That is all Krashan and designer uh Danielle and art
Extraordinaiyu Natasha cunning Here. I had very little. I just
gave the idea and like a general and then they
just they just took it. And I said, I'm going
to get out of the way, y'all because the target
(48:16):
you need to do what you think.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
Looks inspired a whole altar. Well, I wish we had
more time. I want to keep talking to you. Well,
now we're friends, so the trapped you, you're my friend,
not to come busy you, but.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
You're gonna you're gonna have them the same same things
are going to come up. What I would say is
it's good. I think now I kind of know, like okay,
there just takes a certain level of intention in terms
of and I think you're you're better. I know you're
(48:49):
better at this than I am in terms of like
how to configure the day, what how to schedule things,
how to sort of have everything be in their place.
I I I wasn't uh quite as prepared as I
should have been. And so I'm getting a lot better
with with figuring all of that out.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
So I mean, you got to learn as you go.
And by the time the next how many more novels
do you think is this going to be? I know
it's giving series, but how many do you think?
Speaker 1 (49:14):
I can't say come on now, I.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
Don't want to give it away, but you know, you know,
I just.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Come on.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
I love a little a little twisty twist at the end.
Come on dot dot Okay, fine, Clarenceines, thank you so
much for joining Brown Edition b A fam Go pick
up your copies. Publishers won't be publishing these books if
we don't go buy them. But not just out of
a sense of you know, I have to do this
(49:46):
or I should do this. Do it out of a
sense of this is a damn good book, and it's
a very it's a it's a page turner, it is
a finish in a weekend and then talk about it
for the next two months of your life. Kind of book.
Congratulate Clarence. Thank you so much for sharing with Brown Ambition.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Thank you so much for having me Mandy. This is
an absolute delight.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Thank you, Thank you awesome all right, and nowhere can
be a fan. Find you on the internet streets.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
I am on Clarence A. I am on Instagram at
Clarence A. Haynes, so just my name without any period spaces.
I'm particularly very responsive on and staff, but then I'm
also on threads and Facebook and Blue Sky. But yeah,
(50:33):
just just look for me and if and I do
respond to messages, it just sometimes will take me a
couple of days because of my schedule.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
But thank but do send him a shout. We need
all the support and leave reviews. Don't even DM if
you're going to DM him, stop it. Go to Amazon
and leave a review, Go to good Reads and leave
a review. We need it, all right. Thank you, Clarence.
Congratulations on the book, and good luck on many many
more months of promoting it. To come mhmm and be
(51:01):
a fan. Until next time. Take care, Bye,
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