American Journalist, Andrew Ross Sorkin Talks The Three T's: Things Take Time

Andrew Ross Sorkin joins the Building the Good Life podcast with John Hope Bryant to talk his brand of being honest and telling the truth in journalism, the three T's: Things Take Time, and more.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Building the Good Life with John Hope Bryant is brought
to you by Prudential Financial ultimately, and it's it's a
cliche to some degree, but it's some semblance. It's it's
it's some idea around the idea of frankly, of just
being persistent. I think that every person I've ever met
who has had any success, it never came easy. Ever,

(00:20):
it didn't just happen. A lot of people said, no, first,
you can't get discouraged. This is John Hope Bryant, and
this is building the Good Life. I have a very
special guest and a dear friend with me today, somebody
who actually has helped really shape my life in front
of a camera. We'll get into it. But if you've
ever seen me on CNBC squawk Box, which I think

(00:42):
is arguably the most important business show in the world today,
not just in the US, in the world, that was
Andrew Ross Sorkin. If you read about me in The
New York Times half a dozen years ago on what
I thought was an important story that was relationship capital
through Andrew Ross Sorkin. And he's not just done it
for me, He's done it for a lot of folks

(01:03):
where he's given them share of voice when he thought
they had something important to say. Let me, I'm getting
ahead of myself. Let me properly introduce you to my
fellow aquarium. We're both born in February. He's the nineteenth,
the six. I'm the sixty six. He's nineteen seventy seven.
Andrew Rush Sorkin is an American journalist and an author.
Much more than that I might ask. He's a fancier

(01:24):
columnist for The New York Times and a co anchor
for CNBC squad Box. He is also the founder and
editor of deal Book, a financial news and service published
by The New York Times, which doesn't tell the whole story.
He founded The Daniel Drain. He wrote the best sellers
Too Big to Fail, which also turned into a big movie.

(01:44):
He's also the co creator for one of my favorite
shows of all time, Billions. Sorkin graduated from Scarsdale High
School and earned a Bachelors of Science from Cornell University.
Really was College of Agri Culture and Life Sciences, Go figure,
but he specialized in communications. He's not, by the way,

(02:05):
related to Aaron Sortin. To those who are curious, are
Ira police Sorgan. He's his own dude, through and through.
He's lived through all the financial crisis that you and
I are aware of. He's people call me a conscious
on capitalism, some CEOs and leaders. I believe he's a
conscious on Wall Street. We're gonna get into hid the
heck he does that, because I don't know how he
does it and be an honest broker and and speak

(02:27):
truth of power and still stay in that seat I
want to get into. I believe the most important issue
of our day, other than the right to vote, which
is social justice through an economic lens. One of the
most consequential voices in media, I believe today, and certainly
one of the top ten voices in business in the
world today. My brother, my friend Andrew rush Sorton. Thank

(02:49):
you for having me. It's a privilege to be here
in congratulations to you on the new podcast. Thanks so much, man,
Thank you so mu funny that it's a role reversal.
This time I gets it. Usually I get to ask
you the question that's right, that's right, and cut me
off too. You can do you can do that to me.
I've learned the hard way. You gotta do it occasionally,

(03:10):
so if I go along, it's it's on. It's on
you to cut me off. Nothing rude about it. No,
if you go along, that means because you're passionate about
the topic. I didn't realize this, Andrew. You and I
were also young global leaders together. Did I Did we
see each other in the world? Do you do? You
not remember this story? So I'm and I will. You're
gonna think I'm pandering you. Now. We met in China,

(03:32):
Daly and China two thousand seven, and I didn't know
you from anybody, but I saw you at this thing.
We met briefly, we talked a little bit, but I
saw you talk and I saw you. I don't want
to say worked the room, but the way you you
moved through that room and the way you spoke. I

(03:53):
remember coming back to New York thinking myself, whoever that
guy is, that guy could like me the president. I
state one day, there's something going on with that guy,
John Hope Bryant. And that was the moment. That was
a moment for me because I thought, whoever that guy is,
that's you. Obviously, Uh, he's going somewhere, He's calling somewhere quick.
I do remember that that now that you mentioned it,

(04:14):
I met you and somehow as a result of that.
You know, this is a relationship capital. I keep talking
to everybody about a relationship. Capital is actually more important
than money. For those who say, oh, you know, you know,
money is the most important thing. No, you can win
the lottery and go broke, right, you can become a
basketball player and be dead broken five years uh after
you get the check. But beyond sort of sustenance poverty,

(04:38):
which is the roof over your head and food in
the table in health, health care, all other kind of poverties,
mindset and relationship capital is a door when you have
the right your mindset right that you that you walk
through that builds everything else. And Andrew did not have,
was not born with a silver spoon in his mouth.
Listened to the bio. I just just articulated to you.

(04:59):
Even he walks with kings and queens and CEOs of
companies and billionaires today as a as a as a
normal sort of map. He's very handsome, but we all
over conversate in different ways. Uh. He's used his um
humble beginnings as a way to remember everybody who's left behind.
He was an intern at the New York Times. That's
how he started there when he was in college and

(05:20):
went over to London, did some work over there, was
became the top mergers and acquisitions reporter for the New
York Times. Uh and has these multiple worlds now you know,
book author, uh billions. It is like just everything to me.
And that show in and uh yellow Stone like got
me completely addicted. Um and I didn't even know he

(05:42):
was doing that, but he produced that. And but this
is not about the accolades. This is not about the
squawk box. This is about getting underneath that and saying,
why are you doing all this stuff and why do
you do it the way you do it? Like you
could just sit around and pander all day and get
away with it because you're you know, you're trying to
get the next interview with this billionaire, this ceo. You

(06:04):
know he Andrew is the one who broke the news
about the murders of JP Morgan Chase or JP Morgan
and Chase and broke the news I believe on IBM
and a bunch of other companies that he can talk about.
He was there in two thousand nine. He wrote this
book Too Big to Fail, the two now nine crisis.
But he's always speaking to truth to power Andrew, how
do you do it? And more importantly, why do you

(06:26):
do it? Why? Why don't you just lay back and
just take the check like everybody else that appears there
a lot of people and just go along with the program.
Why are you walking the road less travel is much
more dangerous, is much more risk for you to basically
stick up for poor people and those left behind? Well,
two things. One is I'm one of these kind of
people like I think you are, who wants ultimately to

(06:51):
make a marginal difference at least in making the world
a better place. And so I think I think all
of the work I do comes from a place of
how do we fix it? How do we make it better? Uh?
You know, across everything, um and that could be in
the world of business, could be in the world of politics,
could be world world of arts. And so I think
my perspective sort of starts there. And to your question

(07:15):
about how do you do that or especially in light
of the fact that oftentimes that means calling out people
and being critical in certain cases, I think what I've
tried to do over the years is to be honest
and and be do it from a place where even

(07:35):
when I'm critical it comes from a place of and
I hope whoever I'm being critical of recognizes this. It's
coming from a place of one to make it better.
It's not that I'm trying to hit people over the
head for for for sport or for fun. I don't
get excited by calling people names. I don't. I don't

(07:56):
like that. That's not who I am. And I think
that's the extent that I've managed to be able to
um develop and maintain relationships over the years with people
uh in in parts of power, if you will, and
at the same time oftentimes make critical comments about sometimes

(08:16):
things that they do, what their institutions do. It's because
and and that that relationship is able to be maintained.
It's because I'm honest with them. Meaning oftentimes I will
call you in advance if I'm writing an article, UH
where I disagree with whatever is happening, and I'll say, Hey,
I disagree with what's going on here. I'm about to
write that I disagree with what's going on here. Tell

(08:38):
me every reason why I am wrong. Tell me, and
to the extent that I think there's merit to that,
I will include it. And by the way, even the
extent there isn't merrit is I will include your perspective. Um,
you know, not everybody's right. There's That's the thing about
think about the world is nothing is black and white ever,
So I may have one view on one side, someone

(08:59):
else may have an other of you on another side.
It's probably somewhere in the middle to begin with. And
I think it's partially the fact that I sort of
come to the table recognizing that and being willing to
engage that way that I think people go, okay, uh,
there's there's at least good will. It starts with goodwill.
So I think that's how you know, knock on wood,
I've been able to do it. Yeah. I wonder as

(09:20):
I listened to you, whether you're Jewish background, um inform
some of the decency because you, you know, you can
relate to struggle and and have empathy for folks um
who are unjust in maligne um as I can as
an African American. My pastor once told me John talked
without being offensive. This is why I'm hearing you saying,

(09:41):
By the way, talk without being offensive, Listen without being defensive,
and always leave even your adversary with their dignity because
if you don't, that's spend the rest of their life
trying to make you miserable. It becomes personal. So over mass,
not in it. And so in an odd way, what
you how you described how you approach life is how
I try to approach life. Don't rearrange the deck chairs

(10:02):
on the Titanic. Step over mess, not in it. Don't
win the battle, try to win the war. And if
you can Dr King's Andrew Youngest approach, have it win win.
You know this this podcast piece is not about journalism. Um,
but as I'm thinking about this, Andrew Dr King never
would have had a moving without the media. And uh,

(10:25):
I mean there are reporters who the actually this guy
wo worked for the New York Times who told Ambassador Young,
I've gotta be you know, why are you here in
this day whatever? The thing was a holiday? Look, you know, Ambassador,
I mean Dr King is marching. I gotta be here
because my editor said it is back in the sixties.
If he gets shot and I don't get the shot,
then then then I'm out of a job. And it's

(10:46):
horrible as that sounded. Ambasslaror Young respected the fact that
this reporter was honest about it, like he wasn't trying
to wish bad things. When Dr King, You're just saying,
if this this guy is walking history, and if something
happens and I'm not here in my head, and I
also want to make sure I'm telling the story and
making sure that people are held accountable. And this lost

(11:07):
art of telling the truth is what I'm hearing you say.
You do you try to tell the truth. And in
this world where you have we won't name broadcast. I
guess one conservative outlet on one side, and they, you know,
to rationalize and tell rationalize. Maybe a liberal or set
of liberal folks on the other side, they're doing the

(11:27):
same thing. No one's increasingly telling the truth. Are you
trying to tell the truth to power and make that
your franchise. Look, my franchise is hopefully just being honest
and hopefully telling the truth. And I think to some extent,
I like to think it's working. You know, you talked
about conservative media or liberal media or this and that.

(11:50):
I always find and I don't know if this suggests
it's working or not. I always find, you know, you
get responses on CNBC some of the viewers will say, oh,
your socialist, your communist, you know over at the New
York Times, they say, you know, you're a capitalist pig.
So it's you know because so so I like to

(12:12):
think that I'm somewhere somewhere in the middle, and I
think I think the middle is closer to the truth.
That's that's I think. I think that telling the truth,
even when it's inconvenient, uh, in the end, actually is
the most convenient, frankly, because it creates hopefully trust incredibility

(12:33):
with the audience. And when you when you do we
like you, when you know when you quote unquote try
to make a move, when when you actually try to
say something persuasive, you can only do it if the
other person on the other side believes you. And I
think that a lot of people, unfortunately have lost a
lot of credibility over the years because they put their

(12:55):
finger in the wind and try to do what was
the most convenient at the time. But it's becoming convenient now. Yes. Uh.
President Bill Clinton once said it's hard to get somebody
greed to the truth from the lie is paying their paycheck.
And um, I know when I watch you on CNBC

(13:18):
squawk Box, are see you on read about what you're
writing in the New York Times. I'm I'm gonna get
two things. I'm gonna get it straight, your version of
the truth, and I'm gonna get your ethical opinion about
it sort of weave through that, and I trust your
ethnical opinion. I think that that what we need now
is a radical movement of common sense. I think that

(13:39):
most of this country is is somewhere in the middle,
and they're not ultra liberal, they're not ultra conservatives. Somewhere
in the middle. We we pivot somewhere. It's probably you know,
we're probably you know, moderate, slightly conservative as a country
because we're a capitalist country. Um. But but I think
that we're right that most people are right down the middle.

(14:00):
They're just you know, decent human beings. And there and
I think you resonate because they trust you as a
decent human being even then when they disagree with you.
I would like the people think that people trust me
as a decent human being even when they had disagree
with me. They we can disagree without being disagreeable. And
and but the thing that fascinates me about you and
I want to get into the news. I'm gonna get

(14:20):
into the history. I want to get into this moment,
and and and and why. I think you and I
both believe this is a historical moment that both inspires
and depresses, distresses and maybe depresses us sometimes. But you know,
you could just sit on your your hands and get
your paycheck, do your thing, take care of your family.
Like a lot of folks, do you put it up?
You you put it all at risk every day, man,

(14:42):
I mean you don't mail it in. Uh. Sometimes you
hold your your mouth. I mean sometimes I think you
both like, I see you disgusted right now, but you're
not saying anything. And I get it right. But and
you know, some of our offline conversations are really about
you know, you're wondering whether you're having an impact. Let's
get underneath this because in some ways you're still that

(15:02):
In turn, you're still that Kia trying to push the truth.
Tell us about this moment. Is it different from two
thousand and nine? By the way, are the other economic
crisis that you've been through to the too big to
fail era? Are you more troubled now less troubled? What
are you troubled about? What are some moments that you
can share with the audience. I think today we are

(15:24):
in a whole different world than we were in two
thousand nine. Two thousand nine, uh, at best was addressed
rehearsal for what will come next. From the economic perspective,
We'll talk about future financial crisis, because I imagine there
will be one, but I look at the issues of
today as so very different, and frankly, we are in

(15:45):
such a better place, I would argue as a country
in in many many regards. I know we're living through
this new variant, and the pandemic has been terrible, and uh,
I think it's done some great damage to all of
our psyches. But in terms of what you're seeing in employment,
what you're seeing in terms of the shifts, in terms

(16:06):
of how in terms of culture, in terms of inside
these businesses, how business of treating employees, what they're doing,
how this is all working. I actually think we're on
a positive road now. Is it going fast enough? Shure?
It's not, of course it's not. But I do think
of all of this stuff as a journey. Um, And

(16:27):
I'm one of the more impatient people you'll ever meet.
But I met a guy about I don't know, ten
eleven years ago, and he said, you always got to
remember the three teas, and I said, what are the
three teams? He said, things take time and actually ran
into this guy really two weeks ago when I said
three teas, the three teams. I remember the three and

(16:48):
I think about the three teams a lot, because a
lot has changed in the decade, but you know, day
to day, it doesn't feel that way about those three teas.
Dr King was impatient. You gotta yeah it, things like time,
but you still gonna push. You gotta push, you gotta push.
And I think that I think the world has changed,
and I think you're starting to see a sort of

(17:08):
demonstrable almost revolution taking place inside business around their own
responsibilities about what they know. I think that I think
we're I think we are at some kind of point.
Is it a tipping point? I don't know, because I
don't know what it's gonna be like in five or
ten years now, But I think in this moment, in
the last i'd say eighteen months, the idea that businesses

(17:31):
are engaged in social and moral conversations is a complete
outlier on a relative historical basis to anything that's ever
happened before. Now. The question is is that because of
this unique in particular moment in we're in today and
that will turn out to be a historical aberration or
is it going to turn into the tipping point? And

(17:53):
five ten years from now, we're gonna look back at
this moment and say, wow, that actually was it? That
part I'm not sure about. So so let's let's get
into this. I mean, you have to put, you know,
an example of how you've pushed back in times where
it wasn't as sexy to do it as now as
you push back on hedge funds and their tax free life.
And you've you've you've you've got Washington during the Obama

(18:16):
administration to change some laws because it was going easy
on corporations, trying to hide the ball on taxes and
and you know, but and and and folks weren't even
paying attention then. But you're still pushing. But now now
we're in this moment that you that I would call
a historical moment. And history doesn't feel historic when you're
sitting and it just like it just feels like another day.
That doesn't mean it's not historic. But that's my job
and this I'm actually, this is my job to see

(18:38):
social justice through an economic lens. But but you again,
you could keep walking past as you say, this is
uh uh? You know what do you say? Transformational moment,
a transformational revolutions, revolutionary. Let's get into why is the revolutionary?
Give me some examples of of some you know. Is
it the voting rights piece that we dealt with? Is it?
Is it diversity inclusion? Is it? Is it capital access?

(19:01):
Is it? Is it? You know CEO standing up for
Uh when is the last time you saw CEO standing
up for social issues? Period? Five years ago, ten years ago?
But you didn't see but very few major fortune fifty
companies were doing that. A local businesses in the South. Ye.

(19:24):
Now every one of them is involved and engaged in
some way. Now we can be cynical and skeptical about
it too at the same time and say, a lot
of it may very well be lip service, and it
may a lot of it doesn't cost money, and it may.
But I think you're starting to see stuff that actually
does cost money, that is actually going to eat into

(19:45):
um at least the you know, tomorrow's profits because people
are investing in doing stuff that they weren't doing five
fifteen years ago. And I think that that's around diversity.
I think in the in the aftermath the murder of George,
what you saw companies make a real commitment that to
actually change the culture of a lot of companies in

(20:06):
terms of how they think about diversity. For example, I think,
uh similarly around LGBT issues. I think similarly around voting rights.
Still obviously very controversial. A lot of companies sort of
hemming hard and there's a little bit of lip service
here and a little bit of lip service there. But
think about this. Kenchon al Ken Frasier put together seventy

(20:27):
five other originally African American executives to publish an ad
in The New York Times calling on effectively their white peers,
calling out their white peers in CEO Land to to
change their ways into and to get behind this voting
rights issue. They've never done anything like that before. And
I would argue they didn't do anything like that before

(20:48):
in part because they didn't feel they could. By the way,
they weren't comfortable enough for the audience's sake. Kat with
CEO of American Spress happens to be black, and Frasier
with CEO is at merk yep and and the truth is,
and they'll tell you this. They've been talking to a
number of other executives, uh oftentimes white CEOs at other

(21:10):
at other institutions who were saying, look, if you do this,
we'll come out and support you. We just don't know
if we can be the first out the game. Actually,
and so I think again, I think that there's a
sort of change in mindset around what it means to
be a leader, what it means to be a CEO today,
and and by the way, what it means to be
an employee. A lot of this is happening as an

(21:35):
economic function of the fact that employees have more power
than they've had in a very very long time, and
large park is actually the labor market, despite the pandemic,
is actually remarkably tight, and the expectations that employees now
have about the role of the company they worked for
has changed such that they're ready to walk out the

(21:57):
door and go across the street if they don't necessarily
green with the moral or social implications or political implications
of what a company that they work for. Dot All right,
this is John Hope Bryant and The Building The Good
Life podcast is brought to you by Prudential for over
one and forty five years. Millions of people have Countera

(22:18):
and Prudential to help solve for life's most important financial needs.
Because at Prudential they live their purpose to make lives
better by solving the most pressing financial challenges of our
changing world. Crudential will continue to focus on financial literacy,
nancial education, business development, and opportunities to provide financial products
and services of those disproportionately impacted here and around the world.

(22:40):
This is doing well by doing good. And I'm John
Hopebryan so so on the voting rights issue first of
all in agreement for those aren't familiar. And we're gonna
have a bachelor young on this series where we had
to get into this with him. He was the right
arm that Dr King was on that balcony when Dr
King was assassinated April four nine. I believe we'll have

(23:03):
others like um Ed Bashton, CEO of Delta On, But
I remember on this point Andrew uh when the whole
voting rights thing was happening. Ed Bashton called me Um
and he had been asked by uh Ken and Ken
to sign on to the CEO pledge. But he called me.
He was like John. It was it was nin o'clock
at night, Can I talk to you? Sure? Look, I'm

(23:25):
happy to sign this letter and all like, that's that's fine,
But this is deeper to me. He said, I've got
employees who are listen, they're they're broken up about this.
I've got you know, I've got people stopped me in airports.
I've got you know, I've got shareholders, I've got people
are really broken up about this. And you know, I
thought that we had helped me and other CEO's to
pull bad things out of that State of Georgia proposed legislation.

(23:49):
But after talking to my employees, I realized I couldn't
just stop with stopping bad things after putting myself in
the shoes of my African American employees, I had to
actually start doing some good things at a standard for something.
And then the next morning he said, I believe that
the right to vote is I don't want to put
words in his mouth, but essentially he said, it's you know,

(24:10):
it's like breathing. I mean, it's it's non negotiable, and
we stand for the right to vote. You know, say
what you will about that. And he got a lot
of crap uh for saying that. Uh, Andrew and doing that,
and and and you know, you know, I believe it's
I believe that some wanted, you know, to ding him
professionally for that. I can't go into a lot of

(24:30):
details about what I really know, but I can tell
you he took a lot of risks. It was not
risk free. Now, luckily a bunch of CEOs a hundred
actually piled in behind him. It was the first, it
was two, that it was four, and all of a sudden,
the thing that was risky what became prophetic um and
and now bekatting. Now it's called a common knowledge or

(24:51):
common you know, for CEOs to say, yeah, the right
to vote is a good thing. But this doesn't This
doesn't come without folks leaning in. And I think that
when you come on and you say what you have
to say, uh, to a lesser degree, when I come
on and other people, I think it begins to give
CEO is in the main a bit more courage to

(25:12):
to live their values and to see their values as
part of this living organism called a corporation. Can a
corporation be a force for good and not just a
force for profit? I think the answer is yes. What
do you say? I think the answer absolutely is yes.
But I think to the point that you've just made
about a bastion and Delta, you know this wasn't just

(25:33):
in the end whip service for them, because there was
a cost to If you remember, the Georgia House was
threatening Delta in terms of some of the tax breaks
to strip Delta of some some some tax breaks that
they were going to be getting from the state because
of the position they were taking. And I think you're
starting to see a number of companies around the country

(25:55):
that have been outspoken, um get get the slap back
if you will, from certain politicians at certain states. And
that's that's the other sort of the flip side of
this dynamic, which is you have a lot of folks
and CEOs and companies who want to make a statement
on one side, but there is now in certain cases

(26:15):
a cost to it. It's not just you know, what's
gonna happen to the customers, it's what's gonna happen politically,
and politically they can regulate you, they can tax you,
they can do lots of things. And so that's why
I said we could be at a tipping point today
or maybe not, because I also think that there's a
lot of executives over the last year or so that
I've watched a lot of this back and forth. They've

(26:36):
watched Mark or Rubio, you know, publicly condemned companies that
have spoken out about voting rights, who then call out
these same companies for being hypocrites because they do business
in China for human over human rights and the implications
of that. So that's what this is all very tricky.
We are in a very tricky circumstances, and there is

(26:57):
no genuine framework for how you make these calls. Business
has always been a frameworks. People like to have a
sort of frame for how they do everything, and these
types of decisions don't seem to fit neatly into any
of them, right And and you know, for for the
longest time, these issues fit into the nice box called

(27:17):
civil rights, and it was business was almost insulated from it.
And there's a there's a whole infrastructure that is almost
a hundred years old around civil rights and legislation, policy, infrastructure, systems,
organizations from you know, the a c P, the Urban League,
all these great organizations doing this great work. But as
we move from civil rights in the streets two silver

(27:39):
rights in the suites. Uh, I think that voices like
yours are pioneering. I think that that. I mean Dr
King could not have a movement without the media. Uh,
Nelson Mandela would not have had a movement without the media.
Gandhi would not have had a movement without the media.
Mother Treesa would not have had a would not have
had a movement without the media. kN Channault and Ken

(28:01):
Frasier would not have had uh gravitas without them coming
on your show and others and other ceo seeing that
going yeah, we can do that too. I mean, I'm
called a conscious on capitalism because primarily of my uh
constant you know, pounding of the same drum on shows
like yours. So the media has an extraordinarily important role
to play in bridging us into this new world and

(28:24):
framing out the lens that we need to see going forward.
But media is also being attacked and fractured right now,
which is why I keep coming back to the fact
that you've made this simple and just aside, you're gonna
stand for something before instead of falling for anything. So
we're we're in this, and we're in this in deep
inflection point where nothing you're standing on is solid. But

(28:47):
yet you still have the Ed bastions of Delta. You
still have the the Dan Shulman's of PayPal, you still
have the uh, the John Donojo's of Nike, you still
have the Doug millions of Walmart. I mean, as you know,
I mean, you encourage me to go do this financial
literacy thing and push it into every every, every piece
of American society. And you, you quietly you're pushing that

(29:08):
Tony Restaurants pushing me and now Douglant mill and the
CEO of the Fortune the largest fortunate I've heard your
company in the world in America arguably now the largest
in the world. Now Walmart is co chair with me
on financial literacy for all, trying to get financial literacy
as a civil rights issue in art nation and embedded
in the business plan of companies. I don't want to

(29:28):
pivot this conversation yet into that direction. I'm just giving
some indication there are some good guys and ladies Ross Brewer,
others who are making a change. What inspires you the
most right now, some examples, specific examples of leaders, what
troubles you the most, into the extent that you can
say it specific examples of leaders or companies. I'm gonna
take the second first if I can, and and I'm

(29:51):
I'm troubled by it, but it's not a moral trouble.
It's actually a trouble that I'm trying to and maybe
you can help me. I'm trying to get my head
around it myself, which is I think we have a
lot of businesses that want to do the right thing,
and we have a lot of business leader who want
to do the right thing. And then I think about China.

(30:11):
For example, you mentioned John Donahoe, somebody I have a
deep respect for who runs Nike. Uh. Tim Cook similar
similar story at Apple, deep perspect for him. I think
he's a very thoughtful, um thoughtful man who's who's trying
to do the right thing. Okay, now it is clear
that there are human rights violations going on in China,

(30:32):
no question. Let's just stipulate that from the outset or
worse or worse or worse, most of those executives do
not feel comfortable speaking out publicly against those human rights
violations in China. They don't feel comfortable using their voice

(30:54):
to make change in that country because they are making
to some degree re an economic risk assessment that if
they do, their company will be impacted and they might
be fired, And I think you have to and maybe

(31:16):
and they may personally be fired, but I think you
have to think about that and what is the right answer.
So there's a lot of profits obviously, and a lot
of Americans benefit immensely by Nike, for example, doing business
in China. There's no question, There's no question about it.
Coca Cola, same same thing. You can pick your pick
your company. If they pulled out of China, or they

(31:36):
were forced to pull out of China, it would have
a detrimental impact to some degree on their own employees,
on the profits of the company, on the future of
the company, all of them. So the question is do
you use your voice in those circumstances? Does your voice matter?
Do you also do a sort of risk you do
a cost benefit? Now say, well, look if I if

(31:58):
I speak up, doesn't really even help because they're probably
gonna do anything anyway. Do I get a benefit from
being at the table privately? Am I at the table privately?
And I think one of the things that's fascinting about
this moment is the public wants transparency for everything, so
they didn't even you know, a lot of people say, well,
privately at the table, I can't be out here screaming
from the rooftops against these people. I'm trying. I'm trying

(32:18):
to make change from the inside. But nobody either believes
that wants to believe it, or they very much value
the protests more than they value actually the change. And
so I think, I think there's a lot going on here.
And you say one of my trouble by I'm not sure.
I'm troubled. I don't know what I'm troubled, but I'm
troubled in my brain about what the right answer is

(32:39):
about what it means to be engaged, to pull to
pull up stakes and and and change that engagement, to
protest from the outside, to protest from the inside. I
think those are some really big questions and nobody's got
a good answer for them. And you know, Twitter is
not helping. We don't mean Twitter the company, We mean
Twitter the platform, the platform, the healthscape of all of

(33:02):
these people that now have a direct line to the
tops of these companies, to the tops of government to
impact and influence the conversation. In an almost minute five
minute basis, I can't tell you how many people are
monitoring their Twitter feeds and going, oh my goodness, can
you see that this? People telling me I'm an idiot.
Maybe I'm an idiot. Maybe I gotta change my ways.
That's right, maybe right? People cancel what they call a

(33:25):
cancel culture. I guess you know. What I tell folks
is you know, drama is not a currency, right, you know,
you know you can scream and holler and argue and
all that stuff. But if all you've succeeded in do
isn't shutting up and shutting out a good person that
can help you, then you just shot yourself in the foot.
A saint is a center that got up. We we
have to be careful, I think, Andrew not that let

(33:46):
the perfect become the death of the good. People say
to me, and I'm coming I'm coming back around back
to your this very very important topic, maybe the most
important that we're gonna talk about today. Um, but you know, people,
let me just frame this out. Folks say, oh, I
hate I hate rich people. No, you don't you hate
rich people? Do you become rich? What you hate is

(34:07):
a gamed system? Oh you know I hate capitalism? Well,
then why are you participating in it. If you if
you hate capitalism, you're human capital. You're trading your pay
your your talents for a paycheck somewhere. If you're not
a business owner. If you're a business owner, you're more
of a capitalist. And entrepreneur goes right up to the level.
I'm an entrepreneur, but it's about risk taking. Entrepreneurship at
the tip of the spear. Risk taking. The business ownership

(34:29):
a little bit less risk taking than an employee, uh,
employee becoming a stakeholder. You're getting a paycheck in exchange
for your for your human capital. We're all involved with
this system. The Bible didn't say I hate money, since
it's a love of money. I hate is what the
Bible said. So let's what I get that on the
table and then off to the side. So well, make
sure we're having the right conversation. People say, oh, you know, oh,

(34:50):
I want to be you know, well, we need a socialism.
Even if you want to shoot shooting money like a socialist,
you gotta first collected like a capitalist. And even socialist countries,
communist countries like China, like Russia, have used a capitalist model.
You can't even have a running church without tides and offering.
So let's put that aside. Okay, let's not get to
your core issue. China. I think we're at war. So
many phrase that, Andrew, I think China's at war. I'm

(35:13):
not at war with anybody. I think this is an
economic war. I think that they want to be the
leader of the free world. By the way, if they
do it fair, fair and square, God bless them. Who
wouldn't want mellens hundreds of meters of Chinese come out
of poverty. I want them to. But it's the how
they're not playing by fair rules, not the what. They
don't play by any rules. In many ways, they make

(35:33):
them up as they like um and I think that
life this is where things get messy to your point,
and it's always been messy, by the way, But if
all we want are perfect people doing good things, it's
gonna be a pretty empty room or a room fill
of people who can't help you move the needle. I
can give you so many examples of companies that were faulty,

(35:53):
and many many, many other areas and leaders, but who
stand stood up at the right time, at the right
moment because they were they had a seated the table
to do the right thing. Let me give me one
second to tell the Coca Cola stories. I think it's relevant.
Hopefully this inspires the audience to to cut their leaders
a break in the in the leaning the folks that
they really think are honest brokers, and give them some support.
So if I were told you Andrew the story about

(36:16):
what the CEO Coca Cola did for Dr King, I
think I know the story, but it's very worthy for
this audience. So Dr King went came back from the
Nobel Peace Prize and winning the Nobel Peace Prize, and
it was a foregone conclusion that he's gonna be honored
here in the area and everywhere. When he didn't know,
they're trying to keep it with his advisors, Andrew Young
and others trying to keep it from him. The business

(36:37):
leaders in it in Atlanta didn't want to honor him,
and President Johnson didn't want to see him. So he's
coming back from Norway, is going through New York and
he's trying to get an appointment watched with the President.
The President they want to seem was he even want
to be asked for the Second Civil Rights Bill. So
here's a seemingly good guy although Johnson has some really
bad habits, like he called Jewish people horrible things, called

(36:58):
black people horrible things, women horrorful of things, like he's
used the inn word. I mean, he's on this is
on tape, right, So he's got some really bad you know,
uh personal verbal hygiene skills and uh, maybe some values
to go along with it. But he's signed He signed
more civil rights bills than anybody in the history, four
of them. Right, So do you want a complete gentleman

(37:21):
or genteralwoman who does nothing or do you want somebody
who gotta hold your nose every now and then and
you know, bite your tongue. But he's doing the right
thing because God's using him at that moment. I don't
know the answer, but I'm glad if he did the
four civil rights bills. Anyway, he didn't want to see
Dr King, and we don't have time with this story,
but he finally saw Dr King in the residence. Rocket
Feller loan Dr King his plane. If Rocket Feller didn't

(37:44):
make money, he couldn't have had a plane loan to
Dr King. So andrew young Adotagne to come in. They
saw the President after hours, where the President said, you
think I've got too much power. And Dr King said,
let's go get the president some more power. Um A
bastard Young said to him, you know you can tell
him more hand at morehouse man, but you can't tell
him much. He's that's an arrogant thing for you to say.

(38:04):
At five seven and a hundred thirty pounds, Dr King
hundred forty pounds. Well, Dr King went and got the
president more power, turning a good man to a great man. Um,
because he signed the next civil rights bill. So it
goes to Atlanta and the mayor that was beside himself Andrew,
and he'd gone to seek the former CEO Coca Cola Woodruf,
Robert Woodroffe, who was I think he was hunting anyway,

(38:26):
make a long story short, we got this problem. The
Woodroff comes back in cause everybody to the chairman's office
at Cocola, the business leaders, and I look, you got stuff, miss,
that's my hunting game. And you disturbed me and disturbed
the peace in my brain. What are you doing? I
don't care whether you like Dr King or not. I
don't care what you what do you think he's perfect
or not perfect? You don't like change and he's pushing
it and okay, you don't like it, but no one

(38:46):
likes change. Let me not. Let me explain this to you.
This man won the most important award in the world.
We're a global supply chain company at that point, the largest.
If you don't want to honor this man, we're gonna
move out of a little raggedy town Atlanta and goes
and play. The folks have got some sense. Okay, you
got a week Andrew, they sold out the ballroom. Now
all we see in the history books is the ballroom

(39:08):
sold out. Every the walls are full of people, and
you know, every seat is taken. Uh. And maybe the
CEOs even didn't do the right thing because it was
the right thing. They didn't because they were vendors of
Coca Cola in Cocola isn't gonna give me any business anymore.
But it was the right thing nonetheless, and of course
Blacks kept Cocola in business for the next fifty plus years,
both here and in Africa, with as loyal customers. That

(39:31):
was messy, but still truth and honesty rose to the surface.
I'm not sure if that informs your question at all.
I just think that you know this is this is complicated,
Uh do we want this? Look? I agree with you
that it's complicated. I think unfortunately we lived in a
in a world now where nobody wants anything to be complicated.

(39:52):
Nuance seems to have unfortunately no place in these discussions.
If you have one view on one thing and it
looks like you have even a mark on a different
view on something else, but adjason are related, all of
a sudden, you're a flip flopper. You're a hypocrite. People
used to call that thinking. I think I think it's
called thinking correct. And that's maybe why I have empathy

(40:12):
and sympathy for a lot of leaders in America today,
because I think they're grappling with um a world that
that won't bear or doesn't want to bear nuance anymore,
and that scares me. Well, that's why I think what
you're doing every day, and I encourage everybody listening to
this to to to subscribe to the podcast for Andrew

(40:32):
Ross Sorkin on squawk Box or watch it. It is.
It is unbelievably fascinating every day and is anything but boring.
But I think what you do is a conscience on
Wall Street is give good leaders air cover and political
leaders in Washington. You both hold them accountable, give them
hair cover. Maybe they want to do the right thing.
May maybe you need they need you to sort of
knock them a little bit, give them air cover. I

(40:54):
think to a less degree that's what I do is
I try to to give good leaders air cover to
to do the right thing. And maybe I'll take the
hit so they don't have to take it. Maybe I
say what they can't say. And maybe that's a little
bit of our role is speaking truth to power, always
being honest, never covering for an idiot, never never lying.
But maybe it's being gracious, you know what it's oh saying.

(41:15):
If you want to have a little grace, you better
show a little mercy. If you want to get a
little grace, you better show a little mercy. Yeah great,
So what is some example? So you mentioned the bad thing?
We can't China would be a whole our programmed by itself.
I mean, China's involvement in Africa is I believe the
next big story for the next decade for those listening

(41:36):
to you want to fall out of your seat. The
number one group of ethnic group marrying Black African women
in fifty four countries up until a year or two ago.
Last of my check, we're Chinese met and I don't
believe because because Chinese men and fall in love with Africans,
they're trying to lock in their supply chain. They're trying
to lock in low cost goods and prices. I think
it's all economic. I think again, this is an economic war.

(41:58):
It's global. China wants to be the leader of the
free world, which needs to have to knock us off
our perch. But I don't think anybody can screw up America.
EXCEP in America, and everybody seems to want to be
an American except Americans. We keep arguing with each other
about stupid stuff, and we need to knock it off.
So that's a story that's complicated. And and and maybe
we'll do a dedicated whole show just on China. Maybe

(42:19):
you're not doing it together. But let's go to now
the thing that inspire you. I'll say one thing that
inspires me. And I want to listen to you about companies, individuals, leaders,
things you're seeing. If you look at the man, I
love math because they have an opinion. Melody hubs in
quote doesn't have an opinion, diverse companies and diverse regions
are winning, Andrew. If you look at diversity and inclusion
on companies or regions, Atlanta the most diverse place in

(42:41):
the South, largest economy in the South, tints economy in
the world, in the country. I'm sorry you look at companies, uh,
Diversity inclusion is not just a moral issue to your
earlier point about doing the right thing and getting hopefully
credit for it. It's also good economics. What do you
say about that. You know, one of the amazing things
about about her is now she's the chair of Starbucks

(43:04):
Melody Melody Hops, and you know, you talk about role models.
I think Melody is a great role model. But I'd
also saying on star Wars has been on my mind
because there was just a unionization effort um frankly against Starbucks,
just just up in Buffalo past couple of weeks. I think,
I look at what Howard Schultz did with Starbucks, and

(43:27):
you think about all of the benefits that he created
for his employees. We're working behind the counter of the
baristas early on. You know, first company like that to
give healthcare, for a company like that, to give college education.
I mean, so you can go down the list of

(43:48):
things that that company did. Theirs company tried to try
in certain cases unsuccessfully, but to engage in in national
conversations about social justice and race and so many other issues.
And I think that's a company that if you go
back in history and start to look like, where did
this all come from? Where the conversation we're having today,

(44:09):
a lot of it actually started with Starbucks doing some
pretty amazing things over the last twenty years. It's actually
why it's surprised me as much as it has that
a union effort would even begin inside of Starbucks, given
what's happened uh and the benefits that of accrued to
those employees over the years, especially in a relative basis
to the rest of the fast food industry. Having said that,

(44:33):
this goes back to where we were earlier. The expectations
of all employees is being raised. So I think now
you're looking at the folks are working at Starbucks today
and there's they're saying, yeah, that's great, we want even more.
And and I'm not saying they shouldn't get more. I'm
just saying that. But you know, life is relative, and

(44:53):
I think that you're starting to see that all play
out similarly, and I know he gets uh, you know,
he gets a lot of creaky gets love and hey,
Jeff Bezos at Amazon, you know, they did raise their
minimum wage nationally, I think originally the sixteen an hour,
which then frankly pushed dougwud Millen at Walmart to have
so absolutely, absolutely who has done a remarkable job when

(45:18):
especially when he was the chairman of the Business Roundtable,
because he also was pushing business to be better and
to do better, and so exactly he was he was.
It happened under under his leadership that Corporate America decided
that profit and sheerholders were not the only constituent, that
there was a whole other group of people, including employees,
including suppliers, and customers, including environment and all of it

(45:43):
um neighborhood neighbors. So I think that there's a lot
that's going on that's quote unquote market based, and then
there's also sort of you know, what should the minimum
wage be, you know, from a regulated way, right, But
but I do think there are business leaders who are
trying to trying to do some of these things, both

(46:03):
because they think that's in their economic interests and because
they think it's good. Yeah. And by the way, those
two things are the mutually exclusive, right you you can't
do good unless you do well first. So we we
want good companies and good leaders to prosper because we
want them to spread it on. I think it was

(46:24):
the New York New York Central Station. Was it Rockefeller
or who built that? Um? Uh, it's one of the
early may not when Rockefeller was one of the early
builders of the twentieth century. A lot of those buildings
that you know, a lot of these universities that that
we talked about the day were created and endowed by

(46:44):
and now HBCUs successful capitalists. I mean, what legitimate wealth
comes from business? I think you're you're thinking about Vanderbilt.
Vanderbilt who helped build Grand Central Station. Okay, so I
think that we've got to do more than DEMONI uh,
we've got to harmonize. We've got to find a way
to see the rainbow after this storm. I mean, this

(47:06):
country was built on entrepreneurship and entrepreneurs um and you know,
the first democracy was actually rooted in a in a corporation.
We don't have time of this whole conversation, but that
goes in the back of them but look at what's
happening in this country. Look at the fight that's happening
right now between Elizabeth Warren and Elon Musk. Look, I
don't agree with everything that Elon Musk does or says

(47:27):
on Twitter. I don't, but I admire what he has
created and what he has done to push the human
race forward. Is the idea that that tesla that he's
created tesla not just all the jobs, but he's now
pushed the entire industry towards electrified cars and e vs.
Think about that, Think about what he's doing space, think
about all of that. And yet he's been demonized by

(47:51):
Elizabeth Warren for not paying the taxes that she wants
him to pay. He's gonna pay eleven billion dollars. I
don't think he should also get a thank you note
for that. Nobody sends me a thank you note when
I pay my taxes. I think that's part of the deal.
It's part of the deal. You pay him. But I
think the idea that that that we're going to demonize

(48:12):
people because either they've they've done well, or they're not
paying the way she thinks they should pay. Now, that's
an argument to change the way the tax structure works.
You don't like the tax structor demonize the tax strucktor,
don't demonize the person. I never understand I never I
understand why people do it, but I never really understood
it because it seems intellectually dishonest. In the end, it

(48:34):
might just be a first I'm not saying this is
Elizabeth Warren, but it might just be good TV and
good media sound bites. It's a way for everybody to
get I mean, this guy in Florida, who's our but
but you know what this but this goes to the
point we talked about. Look, you have credibility to the
extent I have any credibility, it's because I hope that
we're just honest and we're telling people straight. And I
think when you don't do that, when when you when

(48:57):
you're when you're playing around the edges. And look, I
think that Elizabeth Warrens truth is that she wants people
like you on Must to pay more. But I don't
know if she really thinks on musk Unto himself is
a terrible human being because of the way he pays
his taxes. He pays his taxes because that's the law,
that is the law. It's a lot. It's a lot
easier to point at Elon Moss personally, I imagine, than

(49:19):
to point quote at yourself and all of the other
legislators in Washington, say what are we doing here? And
why haven't we fixed it? If in fact it deserves
to be fixed. Yes, and and let's just say that,
you know, no good d shall go unpunished. So if
you're an elected official, you know, if you're lucky, people
like you. If you're lucky. Every we like former presidents

(49:42):
and in future presidents. We we rarely, we rarely like
a president when he's or she is in office because
you just can't please the American public. I mean, so
I will give I'm gonna say that, you know, Senator
Elizabeth Warmant, thank thank thanks for finding a good fight,
and all the other champions of of the little underdog,

(50:04):
Maxine Waters and all the others. I know you mean, well,
I think we've got to find a And then there's
a whole bunch of dishonest people who actually don't mean well.
We don't have time for that conversation. Have a lot
of time for Elizabeth Warren, a lot and a lot
of empathy and sympathy for our arguments because I do
think that they come from the right place. Meaning I

(50:26):
think she does want to fix the system. I do,
and I and I anybody who actually, I think genuinely
wants to fix the system, I I give a lot
of credence to. I just think in certain cases that
I disagree with how they doing it. Yeah. No, we're
in a hundred percent agreement. I think we're stepping in
mass and not over it. I think we're winning the battle,
not winning the war. I think we're specializing in drama

(50:49):
and getting people all worked up. But right now we
need more as many page uh dues as we have
pH ds. We need, we need these conversations. Promise you
have a beginning, in middle and an end. And we
should not demonize people. We should demonize. We should demonize
the problem um, particularly when the person is just doing
as you said. I mean, Elon Musk is not my
favorite guy. He was I was with him the last

(51:11):
well recently at the Time Magazine person of the Year thing.
I mean, I could do without him being Time magazine.
If he's not my guy, I don't buy. I don't
like the way he flows, but I admire what he's
created for all the reasons you've just said, and I
can respect that. And he is paying a crapload in taxes.
It's called capital gains for anybody wants to do some
research versus on ordinary income. What she's saying is he

(51:33):
should pay money on ordinary income. Let me tell you newsflash. Everybody,
by the way, billionaires A figure this stuff out. They
don't make any ordinary income. They make all their money
through capital gains. If you want to tax him, you
got anyways, a whole another conversation. He's paying what the
law size, you need a wealth If you're gonna do that,
you need a wealth tax. And then you're taxing what
are called unrealized gains, which your games that you never
had yet. And I find that a bit harder, just

(51:55):
a stretch. Right. So so there is no perfect answer here.
What we need it as a perfect union. And we've
gotta we've gotta stop arguing with each other because the
Bible says the house divided cannot stand. Let me tell
you benefits from all this crap is going on now.
The way in which we're doing in this which what
you're talking about China in Russia, who love that we're
have in this family food fight because markets hate clouds

(52:17):
and cloudiness and drama. But your adversaries want to slow
you down. They want you to trip your trip up,
They want you to argue with each other over stupid stuff.
We gotta stop talking about red and blue and black
and white and trying to figure out how we can
all get some more green as in US currency and
some environmental sustainability. How do we create a sustainable planet
that grows? How do we create a sustainable marketplace that grows?

(52:39):
How do we involve more of God's children in the economy.
Why are we demonizing rich people? We should all, We
should want as many rich people we want, we should want.
This whole country is about poor people becoming rich. I mean,
what do you think Goldman Sex came from? Is a
guy named poor, a poor struggling immigrant from who's Jewish
from Europe named Goldman and a guy named Sas selling
stuff door to door or who became successful. Now that's

(53:03):
Goldman Sacks. That's every big business was once a small one,
including me. We should want we shouldn't. I think you're
what you're saying, Andrew is she's not just demonizing. In
this example when I'm not building a picking Elizabeth warning.
By the way, this is an example people who would
do that even with the goodness in their heart, which
I believe she has. Other like other people who are
just lying, people who may not be paying deep attention

(53:25):
to this, Andrew, are just getting the message of people
that rich people are bad, and that's just wrong. We
should we should want people to become successful, isn't that right, Andrew?
I root for success for everybody across the board. I
really really do. So. My mother always said, you never
wanna be the old guy in the club. So before
you kick me out off of this podcast, Andrew, I'm

(53:45):
gonna leave. This was my longest podcast session because I mean,
I can talk to you all day, all night long.
You're my brother from another mother. You're an honorary black man.
You are coolest is heck? I think I think I
can say another word on here, but I won't. The
kids may be listening, but you are you a one
bad brother, and I love you. I gotta, I gotta,
I gotta. My wife is listening to this hopefully, and

(54:06):
I'm straight it's gonna be. I got a man crush
on Andrew Ross Sorkin. You are a bad sexy brain,
uh smart as brother, and I hope you. I hope
you stay in the fight every damn day because the
world needs you. So why don't you leave this audience
with your with with your building advice? Like? What what
do you what advice counsel thoughts do you have for
the young Andrew Ross Sorkin or people listening to this

(54:27):
who don't think that the country works for them and
there's no place for them and they want to know
how to build back better or build or build wealth,
or build community, or build their own business, or build
their own life, or build their family, or build their
self esteem. What's sure? What do you say to them?
That is not an easy question. Everyone's got a sound
bite for that. I don't um. I think your answer ultimately, ultimately,

(54:48):
and it's it's a cliche to some degree, but it's
some semblance, it's it's it's some idea around the idea
of frankly, just being persistent. I think that every person
I've ever met who said any success, it never came easy. Ever,
it didn't just happen. A lot of people said no, first,
you can't get discouraged. And the truth is, and we

(55:10):
said it earlier and as impatient as we all are
the three teas. Things take time, but you'll get there
if you keep going. M Things take time. Things take time.
That doesn't mean you should take your time, So be
in a hurry, being a rush. Be be, be, be
impatient for injustice. Cover uh those who are weak and

(55:32):
shut in, who are shaking in the night with with
with no clothes. Stop at the off ramp you see
somebody in thirty degree weather who's homeless, and give them
an encouraging word and maybe five or ten dollars out
of your pocket you can afford it. Find a homeless
shelter if you happen to be driving by one and
you saw somebody behind you who was homeless, and at
least let them know where it was. It is their

(55:53):
decision to go there or not. Give a little back
to charity, Find somebody to mentor find a young person
who's aspiring like me, which Andrew Ross Sorkin did. Put
him on your show, put him on your TV show,
put him in your newspaper article, make a phone call
for them, Encourage them, you know, give them, give them

(56:16):
some support, because success takes time, but it also takes mentorship.
It takes relationship capital, because if you hang around nine
broke people, you'll just be the tenth. It takes somebody
rooting for you. It takes somebody backing you. Andrew ross Orkin,
thanks for backing me, and so many others who haven't
had a chance to say thank you. You're a good dude,
Thank you your consul. And it has been a remarkable thing.

(56:40):
So glad I met you in China two thousand seven,
and I have just loved watching all your success. I
was just with my man Andrew Ross Sorkin and the
three T s. Things take time. I would say change
takes time, but I think you can remember that T
T T things take time, which doesn't mean you should
take your time doing the thing, but just understand that

(57:01):
things take time. All things, good things take time. Let
me tell you something else. Love is work, uh, he said,
to be persistent, he said, never give up. Love is work.
Non love is laziness. Anti love is evil. Evil exists,
but it's very rare. Most people are just lazy and
lexily lazy, financially lazy, spiritually lazy, emotionally lazy, morally lazy.

(57:22):
They just don't want to do the work. Andrew Ross
Sorkin encourages you all to do the work, and particularly
if you're a person of color or a woman, you're
gonna have to do twice the amount of work. Don't
don't get it to bears out for about it. Don't
have a chip on your shoulder. Just understand that the game,
the game, the playing fields just not a level. That's
all right. Haters make you better. You have people on
the inside like Andrew Ross Sorkin and people on the

(57:43):
outside on the sidelines like me, trying to open the
door and push you through it. So but you gotta
get to the door so we can push you through it.
Capitalist is not bad. Is the abuse of capitalism. It's
an average. It's the low frequency, arrogant, obnoxious greed days
me me based approach to life, which only means if

(58:03):
you're a good person and you become wealthy, you become
a better wealthy person. If you're a bad person or
a jerk and become wealthy, become a horrible bad person.
With money, everything just gets amplified. So let's put some
good people in power so they can share that power
and amplify that power on others. And that's what Andrew
Rocks Sorkin is doing. And that's what I'm trying to do.
This when a lot of good people are trying to

(58:24):
do you want to you have covered a good people.
Let's not demonize he said success. This whole country is
built on entrepreneurship, and all legitimate wealth comes from business.
Why would you Why would you demonize wealth creation? Why
would you not encourage everybody to want to be successful.
So we've got to have our elected officials. Um, they
don't like the laws, change the laws, but don't beat

(58:47):
up somebody because they're following the law. We should We
should applaud legitimate success um and encourage other people to
do that too, of all races and colors, so that
they can do well and do good too. We both agreed.
Even if you want to distribute money like a socialist,
she had the first collected like a capitalist, and that

(59:08):
business and capitalism and free enterprise can be a force
for good. This is Building the Good Life with John
Hope right. Building the Good Life with John Hope Bryant
is brought to you by Prudential Financial